There has been a great deal of talk about the quality of HD programs in the Cleveland area on CBS. Sound drop offs, pixelation, etc.

The feeling here seems to be that since Raycom (also known as Raycheap) is the provider that we are not getting quality from them. That's probably correct but I just want to put it out there.

Is anybody else having issues with CBS? And if you are who is your CBS affiliate? Are you owned by CBS, and if so are you not having problems?

Ours is an O&O. Full bore, no subchannels. Looks about as good as it can. There are audio issues, but I think most of those are network. CBS came back from a break in the Pittsburgh game with no commentators for the first play.. then they suddenly faded in.

However, since WWJ-TV has no local news department, we're last on the list for a control room upgrade. All the promos and Jim Maddus' weather will be in standard definition for a long time to come.

Our CBS station doesn't broadcast at full power, so pixelation is an issue.

Must be local. If it was national, we'd have heard more about a problem in the various CBS program threads.


Here is another recent CBS audio issue topic, from Monday. It boiled down to a problem at WBBM CBS Chicago.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1069047

WBBM **shudders** That's where our current head jacka-- Bill Applegate came from. WBBM having problems, they must still be recovering from when Applegate was there years ago. :D

We had problems here on KYW-3 (O&O) the last two nights. There were video and audio glitches, the latter were annoying, as they were high-pitched. Sometimes the channel would go SD for a few minutes. I don't recall any glitches on our CBS affiliate before, in the four years I have watched it, along with excellent picture quality.

WBZ-4 Boston is top-notch. I did note that NCIS was a little soft, as compared to other shows on the channel, though, so even on the same affiliate you might see variability.

NCIS is always a little softer looking, looks like it was shot super16 which it might be

its the old farts crew and they shoot it as such

For those of us in Chicago, it all started Sunday night. WBBM/CBS2 made the switchover to HD sometime Sunday, and had quite a bit of local programming (in addition to the new version of ET-HD) touting this changeover (they are now "The Heart of Chicago", in reference to their new physical studio relocation to the Loop).

During most of this programming, though, the audio was about 20 DB too loud (considerably louder than any other networks), in addition to the screeching and other sound and video problems that have already been mentioned. This continued for all of Monday night's programming, but they seemed to have most of the problems corrected as of last night (some video glitches, but the audio level appeared to be sorted out).

NCIS is always a little softer looking, looks like it was shot super16 which it might be its the old farts crew and they shoot it as suchInteresting. This was the first episode we've seen on CBS. All the previous episodes were either USA or DVD. I didn't see the CBS broadcast as being any better than the others.

For those of us in Chicago, it all started Sunday night. WBBM/CBS2 made the switchover to HD sometime Sunday, and had quite a bit of local programming (in addition to the new version of ET-HD) touting this changeover (they are now "The Heart of Chicago", in reference to their new physical studio relocation to the Loop).

During most of this programming, though, the audio was about 20 DB too loud (considerably louder than any other networks), in addition to the screeching and other sound and video problems that have already been mentioned. This continued for all of Monday night's programming, but they seemed to have most of the problems corrected as of last night (some video glitches, but the audio level appeared to be sorted out).
We have had a lot of audio problems with WBBM HD via D* We can hear all the background audio, but dialog has been missing or incomprehensible for portions of at least two programs, Big Bang Theory (tivo'd Monday, watched Tuesday) and (Without a Trace tivo'd Tuesday and watched last night). We had to turn on closed captioning for Without a Trace.

Lots of audio problems in Denver via D*. Typically, the voices have been very low or non-existent while other audio is fine. Very strange. It also seems to come and go, and occasionally they switch back to SD temporarily. I first saw it on Monday night, and then again last night.

Our CBS station doesn't broadcast at full power, so pixelation is an issue.

Power and pixelization are not related. As long as you receive a signal that is above the cut-off knee, you can still get lots of macroblocking/pixelization if there is motion/fades and more so if the station is multicasting, i.e., an HD channel and one or more SD channels.

Pixelation is a general term which can describe artifacts from excessive compression or excessive errors. They look different as the latter is typically more pronounced with larger blocks and freezes or motion stepping. Some sources for these errors can be from low signal strength or faulty encoding. Signal strength can fluctuate so the errors can come and go. Low signal strength will not cause the blocking effect from fast motion or strobe effects. The two are usually easy to tell apart.

I have 2 sets of HD networks, Green Bay, WI and Traverse City, MI.

WFRV CBS out of Green Bay is pristine with zero issues, audio or video. No subchannels. Directv HD LIL.

WWUP CBS out of Traverse City is a complete trainwreck with no subchannels. Massive macroblocking and bluriness during even the slightest of motion. No audio issues. Charter QAM.

Mr. V/ TVOD: It might be useful to post screen-shots or short videos to demonstrate the distinctions you are trying to make, as verbal descriptions are not very illuminating to folks who don't already know what you're referring to.

Pixelation is a general term which can describe artifacts from excessive compression or excessive errors. They look different as the latter is typically more pronounced with larger blocks and freezes or motion stepping. Some sources for these errors can be from low signal strength or faulty encoding. Signal strength can fluctuate so the errors can come and go. Low signal strength will not cause the blocking effect from fast motion or strobe effects. The two are usually easy to tell apart.

I agree with what you post. Many people, me included, tend to use pixelization and macroblocking interchangably. That may be right or wrong. The point is that it is an error in the encoding process when there aren't enough bits to go around. And that is not affected by broadcast power. As long as you are receiving the broadcast above the cutoff knee, to the point that error correction is not occurring, raising the transmission power isn't going to help the lack of bandwidth.

I'm suspecting that the original poster is seeing the artifacts as a result of not enough bandwidth in which to encode the video, not because the station is not at full power.

WWUP CBS out of Traverse City is a complete trainwreck with no subchannels. Massive macroblocking and bluriness during even the slightest of motion. No audio issues. Charter QAM.

If I read this post correctly, you are getting WWUP via cable. So, how do you know there are no subchannels? How do you know that it isn't a problem with Charter? There are no subchannels with cable. If the OTA station has a subchannel, it will not show up as a subchannel on cable. The cable company has to put the subchannel on a completely different cable digital channel.

Have you tried tuning WWUP via OTA?

Mr. V/ TVOD: It might be useful to post screen-shots or short videos to demonstrate the distinctions you are trying to make, as verbal descriptions are not very illuminating to folks who don't already know what you're referring to.

You have a good point. I could try and fake the OTA computer tuner into thinking it doesn't have enough signal level. Getting errors as a result of a lack of bandwidth will be a little easier. The NBC affiliate in town is real close to me, but if I point the antenna just right, multipath seems to get in the way and the tuner "thinks" that it doesn't have any signal and the nice big knee blocks show up. Not sure what happens if I try and capture that and then run it through VideoReDo to get image grabs. Screwed up transport streams are not liked by the transport stream editors.

If I read this post correctly, you are getting WWUP via cable. So, how do you know there are no subchannels? How do you know that it isn't a problem with Charter? There are no subchannels with cable. If the OTA station has a subchannel, it will not show up as a subchannel on cable. The cable company has to put the subchannel on a completely different cable digital channel.

Have you tried tuning WWUP via OTA?

I know there are no subchannels by reading my local forum, and because I can pick it up sporadically via my ATSC tuner and there has never been a subchannel. If there were an subchannels it would be more than common knowledge in my local HDTV forums. Give me the call letters of your local HD channels and I will tell you how many subs you have and what they are. Its not exactly rocket science.

And yes the same problems persist via OTA, based on my own experience, and based on numerous complaints from OTA viewers on my local HDTV forum.

Also, AFAIK, even if there were subchannels, the cable broadcast of the primary HD channel would still suffer the from the use of any subchannels. Unless maybe theres a direct fiber link from the station to the cable companys head end, which isnt the case where I live.

I know there are no subchannels by reading my local forum, and because I can pick it up sporadically via my ATSC tuner and there has never been a subchannel. If there were an subchannels it would be more than common knowledge in my local HDTV forums. Give me the call letters of your local HD channels and I will tell you how many subs you have and what they are. Its not exactly rocket science.

I do not know what you know, so I had to ask.

And yes the same problems persist via OTA, based on my own experience, and based on numerous complaints from OTA viewers on my local HDTV forum.

Again, info I do not know until I ask. It is a sad state of affairs when the digital stream is as messed up as it is. You'd think that they would want it working correctly. Come transitiion day, if it still isn't fixed, they are going to have lots more in the way of complaints.

Also, AFAIK, even if there were subchannels, the cable broadcast of the primary HD channel would still suffer the from the use of any subchannels. Unless maybe theres a direct fiber link from the station to the cable companys head end, which isnt the case where I live.

Correct, if there was a direct fiber connection from the station to the cable company and it was BEFORE the muxer, then they would have a great bandwidth piece of video to place on the cable system. Without that connection and having to pick up the station off-air, the low bitrate HD stream will be just that, low bitrate.

Sorry to read that your local station is inept.

I do not know what you know, so I had to ask.



Again, info I do not know until I ask. It is a sad state of affairs when the digital stream is as messed up as it is. You'd think that they would want it working correctly. Come transitiion day, if it still isn't fixed, they are going to have lots more in the way of complaints.



Correct, if there was a direct fiber connection from the station to the cable company and it was BEFORE the muxer, then they would have a great bandwidth piece of video to place on the cable system. Without that connection and having to pick up the station off-air, the low bitrate HD stream will be just that, low bitrate.

Sorry to read that your local station is inept.


The funny thing is when I got my first HDTV around 2004 or so, our CBSHD affiliate was sending out pristine and perfect HD. Not even a hint of the issues that started up about a year after I first started watching it. Its been the way it is for a good 3 years now, whether it be OTA or cable.

Luckily for me I am able to move my Directv service address and get way better HD service out of Green Bay. NBCHD and CBSHD out of Green Bay are both way better quality.

On a side note, come February our local NBCHD and ABCHD are going to be multicast together on one 19 mb/s stream, both at 720p. Ouch!!!!!!

Its been the way it is for a good 3 years now, whether it be OTA or cable.

That is just plain stupid.

Luckily for me I am able to move my Directv service address and get way better HD service out of Green Bay. NBCHD and CBSHD out of Green Bay are both way better quality.

Ya, NBCHD out of Green Bay recently went on line with a full HD digital plant. They can even air HD syndicated programs now.

On a side note, come February our local NBCHD and ABCHD are going to be multicast together on one 19 mb/s stream, both at 720p. Ouch!!!!!!

What the frak for? I'm looking at a chart that is a few months out-of-date, but in the Traverse City DMA there are two ABC and two NBC affiliates. So, I do not know which ones you are talking about, but according to the chart, all four station will be broadcasting from their own DTV channel. So I'm confused as to what is going on there and why they would want to do that in the first place.

That is just plain stupid. Executives just do not give-a-damn!

That is just plain stupid.



Ya, NBCHD out of Green Bay recently went on line with a full HD digital plant. They can even air HD syndicated programs now.



What the frak for? I'm looking at a chart that is a few months out-of-date, but in the Traverse City DMA there are two ABC and two NBC affiliates. So, I do not know which ones you are talking about, but according to the chart, all four station will be broadcasting from their own DTV channel. So I'm confused as to what is going on there and why they would want to do that in the first place.

That is just plain stupid. Executives just do not give-a-damn!

The stations are WGTU and WWTV. At a road show recently that was put on by the Michigan Alliance of Broadcasters one of the big wigs for WWTV spoke about it. I dont think its written in stone just yet, but they are considering it pretty seriously I would think if their talking about it publicly.

Im not really sure on the reasons behind it, dont follow our local OTA very closely anymore, Ive given up! With 2 NBC subchannels, CBS having the issues Ive spoke of, and ABC constantly having problems with flipping the HD switch it just isnt worth dealing with.

The stations are WGTU and WWTV. At a road show recently that was put on by the Michigan Alliance of Broadcasters one of the big wigs for WWTV spoke about it. I dont think its written in stone just yet, but they are considering it pretty seriously I would think if their talking about it publicly.

According to the chart, WGTU and WWTV are ABC and CBS affiliates, respectively.

Im not really sure on the reasons behind it, dont follow our local OTA very closely anymore, Ive given up! With 2 NBC subchannels, CBS having the issues Ive spoke of, and ABC constantly having problems with flipping the HD switch it just isnt worth dealing with.

The "flipping the switch" problem is easily solved with a tally output from the master control board. That is if they are willing to get it working, which isn't tough. I think everyone in my location does automatic flipping.

According to the chart, you are in DMA 116. That said, it should not make a difference. No matter what market you are in, there should be pride in your work.

According to the chart, WGTU and WWTV are ABC and CBS affiliates, respectively.





Oops, WGTU and WPBN..