AVS, a place where science should trump subjectivity. Or at least we hope. A few members have really taken up the task to bring us direct digital screen captures. We have scrutinized their methods, changes have been made, the process seems to get better and better with time. It has gotten to the point where I don't even bother reading most traditional reviews anymore, and prefer to see the "proof in the pudding." I know I am not alone. After reading the Transformers comparison thread in the BD software area, my belief that disc reviewing is becoming irrelevant has only grown stronger.

Now, digital screen caps only tell part of the story. It is not a perfect method by any means. But how is one person's subjective take on a movie anywhere near perfect either? Here at AVS we strive to get down to the nuts and bolts of things and it seems to me that in an imperfect world, digital screen cap comparisons are about as good as it gets. Our more seasoned members have pointed out glaring flaws in reviews over and over. So my question to you is when is enough enough? Why do we continue to hold up disc reviewers as somehow more capable than ourselves using our own eyes? It used to be that reviewers would fall back on their "reference" systems as an excuse for everything, good or bad, one way or the other. I say their monopoly on the truth is waning, and waning very fast. The days of having to list off your 50k in equipment in order to seem more credible are over. The caps are right there, for everyone to see, no more excuses.

Remember the "reviews" of Traffic HD DVD? Or Hunt's recent "review" of Transformers? It goes on and on. So many bad reviews when the proof in the pudding is right in front of our eyes to see.


p.s.
Thanks to the small handful of members putting in their time to bring us these wonderful caps. Keep up the good work.

Digital caps are great if the monitor you're looking at them on is calibrated properly. If not, then there's no real point.

And how can you tell the sound differneces with a single frame?

It's fun to play the HD DVD/BD or AVC/VC-1 screen shot game once in a while, but a reviewer - like our own Ralph Potts - will be able to give you something a little more constructive to go on.

But each to their own.

Seggers

I agree, I barely listen to reviewers anymore. The screen caps have made them outdated.

just my opinion, of course.

I agree that caps trump subjective reviews but individual frameas that are purported to be representative ,although a tremendous asset, are not the film.

I watched The Godfather tonight and there are serious gamma issues with this film. At times there are simply no gradations to speak of. Although it may well be the best that could be done with what they had, it still looks only mediocre. Some frames are spectacular others are very very poor . I can not do caps but I can put up some pretty impressive screen shots this weekend of some of the more disappointing material.

Point being ,a handfull of caps does not a film make.

Art

Most reviewers don't seem to have a very good grasp of what high definition video actually is to start with; and on top of that you have the subjectivity layer, plus the fact that many aren't able to detect the presence of things like film grain reduction and its artefacts, dirt and scratch removal artefacts, and picture detail. So I would agree that a screen cap says 1000 words.

I like the combination of reviews and screen caps.

I like the combination of reviews and screen caps.

Same here. I especially like when reviewers use screen grabs to supplement their opinions. It allows me to partially use my own judgment while taking the reviewer's judgment under consideration.

Xylon is a reviewer, right? :D

"Reviewers" IMO have largely been a joke. Whiggles blog (http://whiggles.landofwhimsy.com/) and the opinion of other capture providers is all I need. Of course you can't beat the comedy gold from those who fail to recognize upconverted SD, jaggies, and/or DNR.

Screencaps go a fair way to showing up the flaws. But don't use them to judge the colour, and contrast of the film. As pointed out earlier:

Digital caps are great if the monitor you're looking at them on is calibrated properly.

I work in the design field where colour accuracy is fairly important to my position, and I can assure you my work monitors are not properly calibrated, and I doubt 99.9% of PC users are either.

Screencaps never cover the most important part of the movie.

But I mostly go by screencap myself, since many times its the PQ upgrade that are the reason why I buy titles that I already own on DVD.

So its nice with both screencaps and reviews.

I prefer to review movies myself and not rely one what someone else thinks. It's very subjective, so I go with my own eyes.

While I want to have the best AQ and SQ, content trumps all. I won't buy a movie just because it has a high bit-rate. ;)

John

To be honest, outside of entertainment value, I find that neither are all that useful. Since neither of my monitors are all that great, digital caps are of little use to me. OTOH, there are some reviewers that think every BD is fantastic quality, simply because it is a BD.
J

Point being ,a handfull of caps does not a film make.

Art

Quoted for truth.

The problem with most "reviewers" is that they are mostly subjective when they need to be purely objective -- they let their likes/dislikes color their perception.

Xylon is a reviewer, right? :D


He certainly is. The difference between him and the "professional" reviewers is that he pays for his discs and I find his image quality assessments to be honest and almost always spot-on.

I never really paid attention to reviews & will usually rent/buy a movie on my own admission. I do read reviews but they don't make or break if I will rent/buy a title.

In regards to screen caps, who watches movies frame by frame?
Yes, small descrepencies can be found between versions/encodes but it never takes away from the storyline or 99.9% of the PQ.

Small variations in color, grain and missing dust particles between encodes/formats hardly persuade me not to view/rent/buy a movie I intend to watch.

I've got to agree with the OP's general sentiment. Initially, as I was salivating for anything to come out for me to feed my Blu-ray or HD DVD player, I would read each and every review with bated breath. However, there is more than enough out there to pick and choose now and I find myself skimming the reviews simply to get the specs... audio codecs, extras, etc... and I look at the screen caps to arrive at my own opinion on the PQ. Opinions on this are so subjective, because there is the school of thought that a perfect transfer is like a "window" and the image has 3-D "pop" and his hard to distinguish from reality... and the other school of thought that a perfect transfer simply re-creates the film the way it was seen in theaters, color-timing, grain and all. I happen to believe that the medium of the film is part of the movie itself, be it a very manipulated color scheme and grain structure, or a pristine spot-on window on reality. It varies from film to film. I find that reviewers scoring against a title because of texture or a reasonable level of grain distracts from an accurate assessment of the disc. I know not everyone shares my opinion, but that's the point of this post as I see it. I'd rather see the screen caps and judge the quality of the transfer myself.

*stepping down off soap box*

All very thoughtful responses, thanks.

I watched The Godfather tonight and there are serious gamma issues with this film. At times there are simply no gradations to speak of. Although it may well be the best that could be done with what they had, it still looks only mediocre. Some frames are spectacular others are very very poor . I can not do caps but I can put up some pretty impressive screen shots this weekend of some of the more disappointing material. Art

Hey Art...couldn't access your HT link. What display device (s) are you using now days? Still doing double/stacked Sony G90s???... :)

-THTS

I still will read them, but I also consider the review of the film itself to be an integral part of the review. Of course I disagree sometimes, but it doesn't matter because I just want to read someone's take on it.

One thing I don't pay attention to is the star reviews. I think you need to read what the reviewer has to say about the transfer and sound to understand where he's coming from, and once you've done that, you don't need to know the star rating.

I think of screencaps as another tool in my arsenal to help decide which movies I buy. I never rely solely on reviews because no reviewer is exactly like me, and I don't just look at screencaps because you can study and scrutinize single frames and find flaws that you would never notice when playing them back at 24 frames per second. Or maybe I'll just rent it and see for myself before I buy. Of course if I really love a film it would take an act of congress to stop me from buying it, as long the disc isn't an abomination.

I like to weigh out the different sources of useful information on a given title and sort of read between the lines to decide whether or not a purchase would make me happy.

I stare at a 24 inch HD monitor all day that's color calibrated once a week with a Gretagmacbeth calibration eye. Definitely not what the average person is staring at. So yeah, while one frame doesn't offer context, it does set my expectations accordingly. (The Godfather being an example of having my expectations lowered by the time I actually saw it.)

Hey Art...couldn't access your HT link. What display device (s) are you using now days? Still doing double/stacked Sony G90s???... :)

-THTS


Nope, he upgraded since then to a SIM 5000.

Good grief has it been a year and a half since then already?!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=814240&highlight=ht5000