How much of an improvement is that new technology they've came up with going to provide over current plasma, and do you think the increased brightness and black level will come at a hefty price premium early on (like current LED-backlit LCDs)? My budget is limited to $2000 at most.
From what I've read, there's a few industry insiders on this board, I figure they'll have some idea.

How much of an improvement is that new technology they've came up with going to provide over current plasma, and do you think the increased brightness and black level will come at a hefty price premium early on (like current LED-backlit LCDs)? My budget is limited to $2000 at most.
From what I've read, there's a few industry insiders on this board, I figure they'll have some idea.

i think u should wait for the panasonic 11g they will be cheaper and better,but i dont' know when they come out?!

or u wait a little and buy 58inch tv for under 2k around thanksgiving,that will be a great choice i think...no?

IMO...buy nothing that is either too large or too expensive to be moved into your bedroom next year.

I was treated to an insider's view of two different manufacturers next generation pre-production models about three weeks ago.

I cannot reveal which MFRs they were or go into any details, so no sense in asking, but here are few bullets:


0.0 FL Idle Luminescence
THX
Amazing color accuracy
WiFi
Dead silent operation


Some of these will be released staggered by screen size, but you will see the first of them in about six months.

Don't wait I mean seriously how are you going to play the "im going to wait" game? theirs always something better, Try to look at pc's every 3 months a new better rig is out, well tvs are getting to that gap .... sure not exactly like pc's but every year theirs always a better version for less!.

as far as in question if its justifiable thats a diffrent story, example if you get a pioneer elite then the only thing you have to think is about a newer pioneer as no other brand (sammy panny etc etc) will be close to it for the time being.

Really its your choice but i wouldnt wait I bought my panny when halo 3 came out and i knew it was a "temporarly" set i paid around 1k (on sale despite) then just a bit ago i bought a pioneer elite PRO-111 (due to great sale price!)

and im not going to look back for several years to come, rather actually about 4-7yrs by then its "worth upgrading" for better and less.

anything sooner it wont happen for better PQ, price yeah always but not both PQ and price.

Oh and thats another factor you want to take pay up 1k/2k now and again 2-3yrs another 1/2k or pay up 3k now and dont look back for 4yrs or so ?

its easy go for the good stuff > pioneer elite.(if you can strech that is)

if not panasonic plasma then the samsung plasma is the way to go.


Good luck

Don't wait I mean seriously how are you going to play the "im going to wait" game? theirs always something better, Try to look at pc's every 3 months a new better rig is out, well tvs are getting to that gap .... sure not exactly like pc's but every year theirs always a better version for less!.
Well, I think the endgame with plasmas is zero-luminance blacks, and since everyone's buying their panels from Panasonic now, I'm curious if we'll see prices that are closer to the Panasonic's current range than Pioneer's.

and im not going to look back for several years to come, rather actually about 4-7yrs by then its "worth upgrading" for better and less.

anything sooner it wont happen for better PQ, price yeah always but not both PQ and price

Have to disagree here based on direct observation. Next year will have materially better PQ with materially lower prices because at least two MFRs will be competing with 0.0 FL idle luminescent displays.

I appreciate this thread. I have a 63 Samsung and a 6020 Pioneer in a Forum Sponsers buy bucket all day. Trying to make up my mind or even just wait.

I am in no hurry. Have a Pioneer 5071 in the living room. Have a Sony XBR960 in the bedroom.

I went and looked at some displays today at Best Buy. I know horrible place to view. The 6020 was playing the John Mayer Blu-Ray concert. Wasn't blown away. Looked a little dull. I have this disc and it almost looks a little more vibrant on my current Pioneer.

The Samsung 950 and all the other displays were playing an ESPN feed. No Sales Person in sight to try a Blu-Ray disk. How does the Magnolia section stay in business? Never anyone around...

Nothing blew me away today. I know any of these displays would look 100% better in my house and I aleady have an older Pioneer so I know it can only be better but... The 60 didn't even look as big as it once did. The 65 Panasonic was looking good size wise.

Here I am with a couple of PDP's in a buy bucket and also the thought of what might be coming next year..

It's kind of nice to not be desperate but I need to make up my mind. :rolleyes: Decisions Decisions....

Rick

IMO...buy nothing that is either too large or too expensive to be moved into your bedroom next year.

I was treated to an insider's view of two different manufacturers next generation pre-production models about three weeks ago.

I cannot reveal which MFRs they were or go into any details, so no sense in asking, but here are few bullets:


0.0 FL Idle Luminescence
THX
Amazing color accuracy
WiFi
Dead silent operation


Some of these will be released staggered by screen size, but you will see the first of them in about six months.

That should have been fun to see.:) Plasma could really hit it's peak stride next year on quality. Next up is for them continue to drop in price just as they are doing now.

Current gen users sometimes tend to downplay the future tech (a need to feel good about current purchase) but truth is waiting usually leads to improvements in technology and lower prices as well. On the other hand time spent enjoying a set now has some value as well and practical difference depends on how much an individual user values certain features.

You could be waiting for features that ultimately won't really add much if at all to real use of the set. Those features sound nice but as example for me compared to even the current Non-Elite 6020, 0.0 FL is the only feature in that list that would have any real value with a very slight nod toward color accuracy.

Generally speaking though the next gen looks primed to potentially be both better and cheaper which is a pretty strong incentive to wait.

You remind me of an old good friend of mine!

He told me once that he will wait till next year because the computers getting soo much more powerful and cheaper...

He waited for the 33 MHZ version to come out until the to 3 GHZ processors came out ...

Sure he got a better machine - but he lost 10 years of pleasure.....

The point is: You will ALWAYS get a better deal, a better TV, a cheaper TV...the longer you wait, but you will miss all the pleasure in between :rolleyes:

Yeah but like I said and I think this now is the norm for many that visit here and not the mainstream.

Many of us are on our second or third or even more HD sets. It is no longer a need to move to HD. It is now a matter of moving to a larger display. The current technology is acceptable.

So waiting is not an issue when you already have a couple of HD sets in your house.

I think 65 is going to be the new 60 in a year or so..Just my opinion. If the quality improves as well, bring it on.

Rick

Every year seems to get better and better.

No sense in denying yourself the pleasure of today based on the fear that something better is coming tomorrow.
There will always be something better coming around the corner.

we have to wait to know if the new one is actually a lot better in pq if not then u can wait until it really blow your eyes :eek: for me it will be in 2years F.E.D or OLED(i think the price will be too munch at that time).

If you already have a display you like then waiting can make sense but if you're sitting on the sidelines waiting to buy your first HDTV then get one now. You don't want to miss out on HD this whole football season or for the World Series do you?

If we were to wait til "next year" for the "next best" thing, we would never buy anything.

IMO...buy nothing that is either too large or too expensive to be moved into your bedroom next year.

I was treated to an insider's view of two different manufacturers next generation pre-production models about three weeks ago.

I cannot reveal which MFRs they were or go into any details, so no sense in asking, but here are few bullets:


0.0 FL Idle Luminescence
THX
Amazing color accuracy
WiFi
Dead silent operation


Some of these will be released staggered by screen size, but you will see the first of them in about six months.Will any of the next-gen panels support tru2way?

Every year seems to get better and better.

No sense in denying yourself the pleasure of today based on the fear that something better is coming tomorrow.
There will always be something better coming around the corner.

chad, that clip in your sig is just plain stupid man....

:eek:

I just watched that clip... thanks for almost giving me a "heart attack!" :mad:

or u wait a little and buy 58inch tv for under 2k around thanksgiving,that will be a great choice i think...no?

I'm a bit skeptical that those 58" sets drop over $800 in 2 months. But if that's the case, then I'm all over that!

Otherwise I'll have to settle for a mere 50".

How much of an improvement is that new technology they've came up with going to provide over current plasma, and do you think the increased brightness and black level will come at a hefty price premium early on (like current LED-backlit LCDs)? My budget is limited to $2000 at most.
From what I've read, there's a few industry insiders on this board, I figure they'll have some idea.

Well, what kind of "owner" are you? Do you buy a display with the intention of keeping & enjoying it? Or are you like some people who change displays almost as often as they change underwear? (sorry about that analogy - no offense meant to anyone)

If you are going to blow $2K now and obsess about it when newer/better technology is available in 6-12 months, then cheap-out right now, save whatever is leftover, and enjoy your purchase until newer tech settles-in and prices drop. Otherwise, if you put off your purchase and the new tech is too pricey for you, then you'll be kicking yourself and will have missed the enjoyment that current tech offers.

Just my 2 cents.

Good luck with ur decision.:)

IMO...buy nothing that is either too large or too expensive to be moved into your bedroom next year.

I was treated to an insider's view of two different manufacturers next generation pre-production models about three weeks ago.

I cannot reveal which MFRs they were or go into any details, so no sense in asking, but here are few bullets:


0.0 FL Idle Luminescence
THX
Amazing color accuracy
WiFi
Dead silent operation


Some of these will be released staggered by screen size, but you will see the first of them in about six months.

Any info on a nice 70"?

Yes, by all means wait. And then next year use the same logic to put off a purchase...and the next as well. Rinse and repeat infinity while watching an old 19" tube tv from the 80's knowing that your suffering will eventually pay off with the holy grail tv.:D

How much of an improvement is that new technology they've came up with going to provide over current plasma, and do you think the increased brightness and black level will come at a hefty price premium early on (like current LED-backlit LCDs)? My budget is limited to $2000 at most.
From what I've read, there's a few industry insiders on this board, I figure they'll have some idea.
The next generation of plasma will be better, that's a given.

Panasonic 2009 Line will come out in late march/early april if they follow this year patterns.
Pioneer will release new sets in June/July.
Samsung will be July/August, I think.

If you think you can wait that long, do so. However, when the new sets come out, they are usually a tad pricey. Figure the price they are now and the price they were in April when they came out, there's nearly a 1000$ drop on some models compared to the MSRP.

So if you do wait for next year model, figure you'll be waiting at least a year before the good models reach your budget level.

Now can you wait one more year? Will you ask yourself the same question as today?

Only you can answer that.

What I would do with 2000$ is buy a 50PZ800 right now, and change it in 4-5 years for something way better. But that's me. :)

I was treated to an insider's view of two different manufacturers next generation pre-production models about three weeks ago.
I assume you are talking about two of the following: Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung, but I understand you can't say.

Will one or both of the two manufacturers you visited have a 54"or 55" Plasma next Spring or Summer?

If you could specify, if it is a 54" or 55" plasma, that would be good enough for me.

Hi,

I think next year Plasmas will have reached performance levels that most will be happy with for a number of years and very little further development will be able to be done so for those buying at that time there will be no major reason to upgrade every year after. Furthermore, next years models will have better form & function - slimmer sets with more multi user features which many of present day sets do not have.

I also feel the performance gap between brands will close in significantly and although there will always be the best models out there, for those who cannot afford them, they will not feel they have had to make such a compromise in performance with anything other than a Kuro as some may feel these days - many would like Kuro like performance but cannot afford it. For those buying next year, there very well may be no further major reasons to upgrade again until OLED is established and also of extremely significant importance is that there will be brands that offer Plasmas with power consumption figures that are more or less on par with that of LCD's.

Based on this, for those who are in absolutely no hurry whatsoever, then fine go ahead and wait but for those caught in the middle, a solution might be to buy a basic, cheaper set as a stop gap and which can then be used second tv in the bedroom, conservatory etc.

Bazzy!

chad, that clip in your sig is just plain stupid man....

Mama said stupid is as stupid does.

Mama said stupid is as stupid does.

And stupid gave us a link to something disturbing and unneccesary.

And stupid gave us a link to something disturbing and unneccesary.

Disturbing?
lol. Puulease.

I am sure many people will be having nightmares of a cracked egg for years to come.
Oh man the horror!

i thought it was great chad!!

Will any of the next-gen panels support tru2way?

one of those is a lg.

Hi,

I think next year Plasmas will have reached performance levels that most will be happy with for a number of years and very little further development will be able to be done so for those buying at that time there will be no major reason to upgrade every year after. Furthermore, next years models will have better form & function - slimmer sets with more multi user features which many of present day sets do not have.

I also feel the performance gap between brands will close in significantly and although there will always be the best models out there, for those who cannot afford them, they will not feel they have had to make such a compromise in performance with anything other than a Kuro as some may feel these days - many would like Kuro like performance but cannot afford it. For those buying next year, there very well may be no further major reasons to upgrade again until OLED is established and also of extremely significant importance is that there will be brands that offer Plasmas with power consumption figures that are more or less on par with that of LCD's.

Based on this, for those who are in absolutely no hurry whatsoever, then fine go ahead and wait but for those caught in the middle, a solution might be to buy a basic, cheaper set as a stop gap and which can then be used second tv in the bedroom, conservatory etc.

Bazzy!
This was exactly what I was thinking why I bought the 50px80u instead of going for the 1080p, to save the difference in price and upgrade in the next 12-24 months. To my surprise, the px80u well exceeded my expectations considering the price. So far, no regrets.

Will any of the next-gen panels support tru2way?
One did, one didn't.

Any info on a nice 70"?
Nope both displays were 60-65"

Like an idiot, I didn't think to ask what the largest display would be. Doh!

I assume you are talking about two of the following: Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung, but I understand you can't say.

Will one or both of the two manufacturers you visited have a 54"or 55" Plasma next Spring or Summer?

If you could specify, if it is a 54" or 55" plasma, that would be good enough for me.

I have to be careful here because I gave my word about what I would talk about in open forums and what I wouldn't. Basically, I could either mention actual MFRs and no details whatsoever (what good is that) or mention some details but not the MFR. Bottom line is, the specific MFRs wanted to avoid the very conversation happening in this thread but weren't as concerned so long no specific MFR details were provided.

Anyway...from what I was told, one of the 60" displays would be available spring/summer and the other MFR wouldn't be releasing until sometime later. I don't think either were planning on a 55", but in all honesty I didn't ask about that specific size. However, what I found interesting was the later releasing MFR had a pretty senior exec present and he stated point blank that he thought their current production schedule would severely damage their competitiveness and that he was pushing hard for a summer date as well.

I have to be careful here because I gave my word about what I would talk about in open forums and what I wouldn't. Basically, I could either mention actual MFRs and no details whatsoever (what good is that) or mention some details but not the MFR. Bottom line is, the specific MFRs wanted to avoid the very conversation happening in this thread but weren't as concerned so long no specific MFR details were provided.

Anyway...from what I was told, one of the 60" displays would be available spring/summer and the other MFR wouldn't be releasing until sometime later. I don't think either were planning on a 55", but in all honesty I didn't ask about that specific size. However, what I found interesting was the later releasing MFR had a pretty senior exec present and he stated point blank that he thought their current production schedule would severely damage their competitiveness and that he was pushing hard for a summer date as well.

Did one of the "MFRs" comment on improving the horrible buzz people are reporting on their current sets? :) Hopefully the "dead silence" improvement is coming from the same "MFR." And I also hope the MFR pushing for the summer release is Pioneer. That would be awesome!

There is a tendency to believe that there will be a saturation point plasama technology will reach from most of us. When Digital cameras were new lot of people waited until the technology fully evolves. Now it has fully evolved. Has Plasama TV technology reached a point where we can safely say 'from here on we are only going to have minor improvements' in terms of basic picture quality.

Well I'm with sirarcy on this because I just got my daughter the 50" PX80 & that was my exact thinking because I just could'nt see spending almost "TWICE" as much for the PZ800 plus the PX80 is no slouch when it comes to picture quality & as far as I'm concerned it even has " Better Picture Quality" than the PZ series for 480i/480p sources like analog TV & DVDs which is something to think about if you have a big collection of older DVDs.

So if your sitting on the fence trying to decide if you should buy an HDTV now or wait I don't think you can go wrong with buying a 50" model for under $1,000 or a 42" model for under $700

one of those is a lg.Another AVSF member posted a link to a Panasonic PDP instruction (coming next year?) manual that contained tru2way information. It looks as if this technology may almost be the real deal however, based on my experience with unidirectional DCR products I will wait & see how/if/when/never 2-way cable direct digital services w/o STB is implemented in the real world.

IMO...buy nothing that is either too large or too expensive to be moved into your bedroom next year.

I was treated to an insider's view of two different manufacturers next generation pre-production models about three weeks ago.

I cannot reveal which MFRs they were or go into any details, so no sense in asking, but here are few bullets:


0.0 FL Idle Luminescence
THX
Amazing color accuracy
WiFi
Dead silent operation


Some of these will be released staggered by screen size, but you will see the first of them in about six months.


TO ME, this is MORE THAN ENOUGH REASON to wait a mere six months...

Everyone and their mothers knows the next generation Panasonic NeoPDPs will have BIG form factor, (thinner) efficiency, (lower electricity consumption) and contrast (0 Idle Luminescence, double brightness performance) advantage thanks to 5 lumen/watt tech...

Speaking strictly of panasonic plasma products, the NEO PDPs products promise a much greater performance/efficiency leap over the previous generation, that any other generation leap in recen memory....

I believe that, with next years Panasonic Neo PDPs, we are going to see the same or greater impact the 8G Pioneer Kuro PDPs had over the 7G Pios and the PDP market as a whole....


The big question mark for me will be Price....*BUT* Panasonic are, year in-year our, the price/performance leaders PDPs and, arguably, all flat panels period....so I am optimistic the Neo PDPs will be introduced at realistic prices (i.e. less then Pioneer Kuro panels)

With the Panasonic Neo PDPs, I am expecting a near revolution because of the combination of improvements (performance/form factor/efficiency)


I agree 100% with Bazzy....there are plenty of buyers out there that really cant afford a 9G Kuro....the general perception seems to be, if you dont get the Pioneer, you are settling for an also ran panel....

As we all know, a lot of people cant afford a pioneer so they get the next best thing that they CAN afford


Next year wont be an incremental leap in performance like most other years (save the 7G Pioneer to 8G Kuro)....with 0.0 idle luminescence, you will get black performance that exceed current Pioneer 9Gs....best of all, you will not have just ONE PDP maker with the ultra performance advantage, as is the current case with Pioneer...

There is a tendency to believe that there will be a saturation point plasama technology will reach from most of us. When Digital cameras were new lot of people waited until the technology fully evolves. Now it has fully evolved. Has Plasama TV technology reached a point where we can safely say 'from here on we are only going to have minor improvements' in terms of basic picture quality.


I am thinking next year we will be at that point, yes...

Anyway...from what I was told, one of the 60" displays would be available spring/summer and the other MFR wouldn't be releasing until sometime later. I don't think either were planning on a 55", but in all honesty I didn't ask about that specific size.
Well, I have a 50" LCD RPTV; a 60" plasma would be too large for our viewing distance. If I can't get a 54"/55" Plasma, I will opt for a 50" Plasma.

Since Panasonic bridged the 42"-50" gap with a 46" TV, I was hoping that they would bridge the 50"-58" gap with a 54" TV. Samsung has the same sizes, so I thought they were a possibility at 54", as well. Pioneer has a 50"-60" gap, so I was thinking a 55" was possible.

Can you not ask them questions? Even without specifying 54" or 55" (and brand, of course), I would be happy to know. Thanks.

Another AVSF member posted a link to a Panasonic PDP instruction (coming next year?) manual that contained tru2way information. It looks as if this technology may almost be the real deal.
Panasonic has continually said, despite testing setbacks, that it would have tru2way plasmas out this year. Furthermore, typically manufacturers don't release instruction manuals until just before a product is going to be released. So, I am thinking the 42" and 50" Panasonic plasmas will be out ~1 October; that would be earlier than I expected. So far, though, these two TVs are only from the PZ80 series. Some may want the PZ800 or PZ850 and/or other TV sizes, though.

TO ME, this is MORE THAN ENOUGH REASON to wait a mere six months...

Everyone and their mothers knows the next generation Panasonic NeoPDPs will have BIG form factor, (thinner) efficiency, (lower electricity consumption) and contrast (0 Idle Luminescence, double brightness performance) advantage thanks to 5 lumen/watt tech...

Speaking strictly of panasonic plasma products, the NEO PDPs products promise a much greater performance/efficiency leap over the previous generation, that any other generation leap in recen memory....

I believe that, with next years Panasonic Neo PDPs, we are going to see the same or greater impact the 8G Pioneer Kuro PDPs had over the 7G Pios and the PDP market as a whole....


The big question mark for me will be Price....*BUT* Panasonic are, year in-year our, the price/performance leaders PDPs and, arguably, all flat panels period....so I am optimistic the Neo PDPs will be introduced at realistic prices (i.e. less then Pioneer Kuro panels)

With the Panasonic Neo PDPs, I am expecting a near revolution because of the combination of improvements (performance/form factor/efficiency)


I agree 100% with Bazzy....there are plenty of buyers out there that really cant afford a 9G Kuro....the general perception seems to be, if you dont get the Pioneer, you are settling for an also ran panel....

As we all know, a lot of people cant afford a pioneer so they get the next best thing that they CAN afford


Next year wont be an incremental leap in performance like most other years (save the 7G Pioneer to 8G Kuro)....with 0.0 idle luminescence, you will get black performance that exceed current Pioneer 9Gs....best of all, you will not have just ONE PDP maker with the ultra performance advantage, as is the current case with Pioneer...

Alot of people dont realize 0.00fll is not the holy grail of picture quality. Yes there will be panels that can do ifinite black in one year time, but if you dont have very good processing and solid gamma control you are not going to even get close to 9g pioneers now. Who ever says THX= accurate colors needs their eyes checked. No TV from any manufacture has accurate color out of the box in any mode including pioneer, and unless you have a robust cms your not going to get good color at all, 0.00ftl or not.

So I'm not the only one waiting until 2009 to get a TV.

My plan is to get the lowest end/least expensive 0.0 FL idle luminescence display next year. There is no way I would ever spend over $2,000 for a TV.

Affordable picture quality perfection (absolute black level) is probably only 6-8 months away, and once I get it I'll be a happy man. :)

If panasonic will have a 42" 5 lumen/watt plasma out within the next year or two, that's worth waiting for to me. Not to mention how low the prices will be in just a year. That's a huge increase in quality that comes with the 5 lumen. I'm not that big on absolute perfect color. I've seen the pioneer processing and it it's above anything else, but I can live without it given the high cost of those things. Black level and motion clarity are what I'm most interested in.

Nope both displays were 60-65"

Like an idiot, I didn't think to ask what the largest display would be. Doh!

that's good enough to know, 65" under 150lbs will be awesome. will these sets be dramatically lighter as well?

now can you at least tell us if these sets will still be 1080p? or is it that # will increase to 2080p or something to that affect.

TO ME, this is MORE THAN ENOUGH REASON to wait a mere six months...
.

Is this 6 months confirmed?

Get it now! It's easy to wait, there's always something better just over the horizon. But then you could have enjoyed it for months and months.

In Febuary of 07, I got a 50PX60U. The price was very good, and although the Kuros came out in the next few months, I still enjoyed the hell out of my Panny. The thing sits in my living room right now and I'm still extremely pleased with it.

Get it now! It's easy to wait, there's always something better just over the horizon. But then you could have enjoyed it for months and months.



My favorite quote since back in the day when I sold computers and I still love it :)

Will the 10G pioneers be 5 lumen or 10 lumen tech?

My favorite quote since back in the day when I sold computers and I still love it :)

A little off-topic:

With computers there is more of a chance of being burned than displays (IMO). Like if you bought a Pentium III right before the launch of the original Athlon, or something. I mean, PC performance gains are more objective than subjective. Yes, I know you can measure black levels and contrast ratios but much of our preferences when buying a TV set are just how pleasing it is to the eye :)

There are TVs 3-8 years old that I would be *almost* as happy with as the new Kuros or Sammy LED LCDs. We nitpick a lot at AVS, and overhype new stuff. IMO of course ;)

will the 10g pioneers be 5 lumen or 10 limen tech?5

I'm waiting for next year's plasmas. ;)


.

I'm waiting for next year's plasmas. ;)


.

But if you wait until next year, Then next year you will be tempted to wait another year. And so on and so on.
They will be better every year.
There really is no such thing as futureproofing as far as Picture quality goes.

I would love to get me a 10G pioneer next year but I will just have to make due with my 151 (poor me).

I've got news for some, the Kuros are dropping by the hundreds in the last few weeks...I ordered one earlier this month and I'm not about to be regretful over the decision (I should likely stop reading this thread ;)).

I think I'll just wait on the holographic projectors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k5nt541SE0

But if you wait until next year, Then next year you will be tempted to wait another year. And so on and so on.
They will be better every year.
There really is no such thing as futureproofing as far as Picture quality goes.

I would love to get me a 10G pioneer next year but I will just have to make due with my 151 (poor me).

But chad, in normal years, you get a small incremental performance increase going from one generation plasma to the newer generation....

My feeling is, the introduction of 5 lumen tech next year will potentially bring not just a larger PQ improvement than normal, but also big form factor and efficiency improvements as well...

To get a combination of all three in just a single generation is unusual to say the least, and I am not expecting the same level of improvements 2 generations from now in 18-24 months time...

Will the 2010 panels be better than the first 5 lumen panels?

Of course.......but I am not expecting the same initial impact as the first 5 lumen panels, which will be much better overall than what we normally see today (a 9G kuro is not a normal pdp in my view)

Of course, all this is just IMHO:D

IMO...buy nothing that is either too large or too expensive to be moved into your bedroom next year.

I was treated to an insider's view of two different manufacturers next generation pre-production models about three weeks ago.

I cannot reveal which MFRs they were or go into any details, so no sense in asking, but here are few bullets:


0.0 FL Idle Luminescence
THX
Amazing color accuracy
WiFi
Dead silent operation


Some of these will be released staggered by screen size, but you will see the first of them in about six months.

LG..? Not like it's hard to guess. Knowing your post history I'd doubt it would be a Pioneer eh? I'll believe it when I see it. Where's that 0fl panel they promised this summer?

A little off-topic:

With computers there is more of a chance of being burned than displays (IMO). Like if you bought a Pentium III right before the launch of the original Athlon, or something. I mean, PC performance gains are more objective than subjective. Yes, I know you can measure black levels and contrast ratios but much of our preferences when buying a TV set are just how pleasing it is to the eye :)

There are TVs 3-8 years old that I would be *almost* as happy with as the new Kuros or Sammy LED LCDs. We nitpick a lot at AVS, and overhype new stuff. IMO of course ;)At least you can upgrade a PC... and don't have to spend $5000(+) to buy something decent.

But if you wait until next year, Then next year you will be tempted to wait another year. And so on and so on.
They will be better every year.
There really is no such thing as future proofing as far as Picture quality goes.

I would love to get me a 10G pioneer next year but I will just have to make due with my 151 (poor me).

I already have a Plasma -> Panasonic TH-50PH9UK (sorry, I forgot to mention).
I just wanted to upgrade to a 1080p Plasma this year.
But I'll wait for the 5 lumen panels coming next year.

.

But chad, in normal years, you get a small incremental performance increase going from one generation plasma to the newer generation....

My feeling is, the introduction of 5 lumen tech next year will potentially bring not just a larger PQ improvement than normal, but also big form factor and efficiency improvements as well...

To get a combination of all three in just a single generation is unusual to say the least, and I am not expecting the same level of improvements 2 generations from now in 18-24 months time...

Will the 2010 panels be better than the first 5 lumen panels?

Of course.......but I am not expecting the same initial impact as the first 5 lumen panels, which will be much better overall than what we normally see today (a 9G kuro is not a normal pdp in my view)

Of course, all this is just IMHO:D

This is an excellent point. When the 8G Kuros first emerged, there were many 7G owners who had buyer's remorse and sold their 7Gs or just felt crappy. On the other hand, Panny 600 owners were generally glad that they didn't wait to buy 700s. So, it is a gamble either way. My belief is that the ideal buy is when the new one is emerging - enough info to know if the new gen is worth the extra wait and a big discount (perhaps) on the old gen if not. However, sometimes limited availablity of the old gen screws this up.

Personally, I wouldn't see much buyer's remorse of 8G Kuro owners for the 9G because the difference isn't large (though I haven't seen two calibrated ones side by side). We'll see about the 10Gs.

Don't wait I mean seriously how are you going to play the "im going to wait" game? theirs always something better, Try to look at pc's every 3 months a new better rig is out, well tvs are getting to that gap .... sure not exactly like pc's but every year theirs always a better version for less!.


true, but next year is not just another year, it is the year of "zero-luminance blacks". That is worth waiting for in my opinion. Next year is a milestone year.
I am going to wait.

Will the 10G pioneers be 5 lumen or 10 limen tech?

5 lumen.

true, but next year is not just another year, it is the year of "zero-luminance blacks". That is worth waiting for in my opinion. Next year is a milestone year.
I am going to wait.

I don't forget 5 lumen tech!

There's also the issue of price. Prices are plummeting on TVs these days. The 42px80 can be had for $800 right now. And this is a set that started with an MSRP of $1200. Think of how low the equivalent model will be next year, or even this very same model. If cost is an issue, I would definitely wait for next year.

There's also the issue of price. Prices are plummeting on TVs these days. The 42px80 can be had for $800 right now. And this is a set that started with an MSRP of $1200. Think of how low the equivalent model will be next year, or even this very same model. If cost is an issue, I would definitely wait for next year.


Well...as others have said, and I also agree with, next year will be a milestone one and so you cannot judge it by other years for several reasons....

PQ performance combined with REALLY thin form factors will most likely spur demand in these panels to a new degree...

What if Panasonic releases a TH-50PZ900U next year with Tru2way, Zero Luminance blacks, weighs 40Lbs and is only about 3/4" thick:eek::eek::eek:

How much are you willing to pay for that?

I know I am salivating just thinking about it....to the degree I am willing to pay a modest premium over a TH-50PZ800U (as long as its not up around Pioneer pricing crazyness) and I think others will as well

To hear there will be more than one vendor with 5 lumen tech next year is encouraging because that will help keep prices competitive (REALLY hope Samsung releases 5 lumen tech panels next year) but I am not getting too excited anticipating lower prices in addition to all the other improvements

I'm not that greedy:D

What if Panasonic releases a TH-50PZ900U next year with Tru2way, Zero Luminance blacks, weighs 40Lbs and is only about 3/4" thick:eek::eek::eek:
I know that is a 'what if', but is there any talk that they will get a 50" Plasma out that is even say 45 lbs.?
(That is how much our 32" LCD weighs, and is about all we can move easily.)

If you can't afford the tv you want now, then yes it is wise. If you can afford it and are just scared about upgrades, then it's not wise at all. Next year you will be able to ask yourself the same question for the same reasons. Buy when you need it, or wait forever.

Instead of making TVs as thin as a credit card, why in 2008 can't any brand other than LG (which I wouldn't want) promise a defect-pixel-free set?

I just bought a Hitachi P60X901 for $1 under your price point. BNIB, delivered, no tax.

I know that is a 'what if', but is there any talk that they will get a 50" Plasma out that is even say 45 lbs.?
(That is how much our 32" LCD weighs, and is about all we can move easily.)

So what will keep plasma on top? ‘NeoPDP’ apparently which will allegedly bring the highest black levels in the industry, allow for ultra thin panels and cut power consumption over 50 per cent compared to existing sets. How thin you may ask - well the 65in screen snapped below will weigh less than 29Kg and has a thickness less than a two euro coin. Best of all – building on the 50in NeoPDP set announced at CES – the tech is now deemed ‘market ready’ and will hit shelves in spring 2009.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/news/2008/08/28/IFA-2008--Panasonic-Ultra-Thin-TVs---BD-Players-Revealed/p1

The prototype of the 50-inch plasma display panel introduced at CES in January with a thinness of 24.7mm (described in the press conference the other day as being "thinner than (the width of) a 2-Euro coin") has new additions, the 58-inch and 65-inch, which are all of the same thinness. But the thinness isn't the only forte. They only weigh about half of the same size screens currently available. At the exhibition, these screens spin around, slide from left to right, and spin around the pole to show what new design layouts for home these new displays offer.


http://ex-blog.panasonic.co.jp/exhibition/en/2008/08/ifa08_220.html


So the 65 inch Panasonic 5 lumen tech Neo PDP protoype shown at IFA 2008 berlin weighed less than 29Kg(63.934056 pounds) and was 24.7mm (0.972440945 inches)thick:


So not only are we are talking about a SIXTY FIVE INCH panel that is less than an inch thick, you are also getting just under 1LB per diagonal inch:eek:

So if things go well, figure about 48-ish lbs for the 50 incher:D

Of course that is pie in the sky wishing by me :)

But chad, in normal years, you get a small incremental performance increase going from one generation plasma to the newer generation....

My feeling is, the introduction of 5 lumen tech next year will potentially bring not just a larger PQ improvement than normal, but also big form factor and efficiency improvements as well...

To get a combination of all three in just a single generation is unusual to say the least, and I am not expecting the same level of improvements 2 generations from now in 18-24 months time...

Will the 2010 panels be better than the first 5 lumen panels?

Of course.......but I am not expecting the same initial impact as the first 5 lumen panels, which will be much better overall than what we normally see today (a 9G kuro is not a normal pdp in my view)

Of course, all this is just IMHO:D

That was my impression as well. 2009 will be a game changing year for plasma tech, no doubt about it.

As for waiting, while it's true that technology continues to improve, such improvements are usually incremental. 2009 will not be an incremental year unless the two displays I saw have some dirty secret that keeps them from being mass produced. 2010 will be an incremental yawner.

From what i saw represented in 2009 flagships, it will be a year of intense competition that revolves around feature sets, aesthetics, and price.

I'd expect PQ across the board to be simply outstanding among the top four MFRs.

pax,
rwr

LG..? Not like it's hard to guess. Knowing your post history I'd doubt it would be a Pioneer eh? I'll believe it when I see it. Where's that 0fl panel they promised this summer?

*sigh* well, I won't bet baited into breaking a promise, but my invitation to this event was as an ancillary guest of one of the primary invitees. My post history has nothing to do with the first two MFRs to present to this forum. To say I was insignificant and invisible to this event, would be an understatement. I'm hoping to get invited when the next two present as well. Assuming that even happens and all four present, then I can probably answer some questions like, "Do all the displays have XYZ" or "Do any of them still exhibit ABC?"

So, your doubts are not well founded. Perhaps the first two MFRs included pioneer, perhaps not. Unlike some around here, I have absolutely no brand affinity or antipathy. In 2009, fanboys for every brand are going to have a hard time of it, because I think the whole crop will be quite astoundingly good. In 2008, I have some problems with the trade-offs Pioneer asks of users to get their vaunted blacks. That perspective doesn't taint my ability to state objective facts from direct observations, because I have no skin in the game. In 2009? Maybe those trade-offs won't be required...

That was my impression as well. 2009 will be a game changing year for plasma tech, no doubt about it.

As for waiting, while it's true that technology continues to improve, such improvements are usually incremental. 2009 will not be an incremental year unless the two displays I saw have some dirty secret that keeps them from being mass produced. 2010 will be an incremental yawner.

From what i saw represented in 2009 flagships, it will be a year of intense competition that revolves around feature sets, aesthetics, and price.

I'd expect PQ across the board to be simply outstanding among the top four MFRs.

pax,
rwr


Do you really think these next gen, 5 lumen panels will be competitive with current 2008 PDPs on price?


Because I expect desirability to be off the charts and going along with that increased demand/new tech I would expect a price premium on the 2009 panels, with more competitive pricing on the 2nd gen 5 lumen 2010 panels as the technology matures/stabilizes....


I would love to be proven wrong, though:D

Do you really think these next gen, 5 lumen panels will be competitive with current 2008 PDPs on price?


Because I expect desirability to be off the charts and going along with that increased demand/new tech I would expect a price premium on the 2009 panels, with more competitive pricing on the 2nd gen 5 lumen 2010 panels as the technology matures/stabilizes....


I would love to be proven wrong, though:D

oh no, not another person who thinks prices rise each year as technology gets better! When have you ever seen this happen?

You will absolutely be proven wrong.

Do you really think these next gen, 5 lumen panels will be competitive with current 2008 PDPs on price?


Because I expect desirability to be off the charts and going along with that increased demand/new tech I would expect a price premium on the 2009 panels, with more competitive pricing on the 2nd gen 5 lumen 2010 panels as the technology matures/stabilizes....


I would love to be proven wrong, though:D

They will have to be at least competitive on price or they will simply be out-sold by LCD.

I went to bestbuy and CC today to pick up a wireless router and decided to go take a look at the TV section and see if they had the 950 on display (which they didn't).

This will be the last time I ever go into the televison area of BB or CC unless I am buying. I simply cannot stand and listen to some of the total bullcrap that these salesmen here are preaching. I was standing in front of the 6020 and the panny 800U and One of the salesman came and started telling me I would be better to go with an LCD because "Plasmas run hot" and the color will fade after 1 years use. He also said if I watch sports or movies to go with LCD's because motion is better and contrast is higher.
I was listening to some of the other salesmen and what they were telling other customers and it flat out pissed me off. Because none of these customers knew any better and was hanging on every word these salesman were saying.
I certainly hope that once 5 lumen or 10 Lumen comes they give some of these salesmen a lesson in flat panel tech. Because if something is not done about the misinformation being thrown around to perspective buyers, Plasma will continue to suffer.

They will have to be at least competitive on price or they will simply be out-sold by LCD.

I went to bestbuy and CC today to pick up a wireless router and decided to go take a look at the TV section and see if they had the 950 on display (which they didn't).

This will be the last time I ever got into the televison area of BB or CC unless I am buying. I simply cannot stand and listen to some of the total bullcrap that these salesmen here are preaching. I was standing in front of the 6020 and the panny 800U and One of the salesman came and started telling me I would be better to go with an LCD because "Plasmas run hot" and the color will fade after 1 years use. He also said if I watch sports or movies to go with LCD's because motion is better and contrast is higher.
I was listening to some of the other salesmen and what they were telling other customers and it flat out pissed me off. Because none of these customers knew any better and was hanging on every word these salesman were saying.
I certainly hope that once 5 lumen or 10 Lumen comes they give some of these salesmen a lesson in flat panel tech. Because if something is not done about the misinformation being thrown around to perspective buyers, Plasma will continue to suffer.

Sadly, this is the norm, rather than the exception...

I am thinking that, since LCD makes up such a large volume of the total HDTV sales in places like BB or CC, you are going to see a salespeople push prospective buyers towards the piece of their bread that is buttered.....

They will tell consumers whatever they think is necessary to get that volume sale.....regardless if what they say is grounded in truth or not......

That said, the biggest opportunity for PDPs are at the high end, where LCD is most vulnerable....

A high end Sammy 8 or 9 series LCD cost as much if not more per square inch than some pretty high end 50 inch and bigger plasmas...

Lets not even get into the Sonys, the high end of which are serious coin....

A top of the line XBR8 is more expensive per inch that the most expensive Pioneer Elite 9G Kuros:mad:

The MSRP on a 55XBR8 matches the bigger Elite PRO 151 and the 46XBR8 costs MORE than a bigger Elite PRO 111:eek::eek:

Keep in mind, these upcoming 5 lumen PDPs will, in some ways, have performance characteristics that match or even exceed todays Elite Kuro 9Gs....

With that in mind chad, I am truly wondering where there is evidence these plasmas will have to be competitve on price or they will be out sold by high end LCDs:confused:

TODAY, when you are talking 50 inch above LCD vs PDP panels, you have to pay more to get less (so to speak) with the LCDs....I dont think any thing lower than a 6 series Sammy or a Sony Z series is worth a damn, for the (quite significant) price they are charging for them...

oh no, not another person who thinks prices rise each year as technology gets better! When have you ever seen this happen?



Sony XBR high end LCDs:D

Sadly, this is the norm, rather than the exception...

I am thinking that, since LCD makes up such a large volume of the total HDTV sales in places like BB or CC, you are going to see a salespeople push prospective buyers towards the piece of their bread that is buttered.....

They will tell consumers whatever they think is necessary to get that volume sale.....regardless if what they say is grounded in truth or not......

That said, the biggest opportunity for PDPs are at the high end, where LCD is most vulnerable....

A high end Sammy 8 or 9 series LCD cost as much if not more per square inch than some pretty high end 50 inch and bigger plasmas...

Lets not even get into the Sonys, the high end of which are serious coin....

A top of the line XBR8 is more expensive per inch that the most expensive Pioneer Elite 9G Kuros:mad:

The MSRP on a 55XBR8 matches the bigger Elite PRO 151 and the 46XBR8 costs MORE than a bigger Elite PRO 111:eek::eek:

Keep in mind, these upcoming 5 lumen PDPs will, in some ways, have performance characteristics that match or even exceed todays Elite Kuro 9Gs....

With that in mind chad, I am truly wondering where there is evidence these plasmas will have to be competitve on price or they will be out sold by high end LCDs:confused:

TODAY, when you are talking 50 inch above LCD vs PDP panels, you have to pay more to get less (so to speak) with the LCDs....I dont think any thing lower than a 6 series Sammy or a Sony Z series is worth a damn, for the (quite significant) price they are charging for them...

Guys, I will add a slight correction to my experience today. I went to a stand alone Magnolia Store (I think West Coast only and not part of BB) and the Sales Manager preferred the Pioneer 9G's to the Samsung 950 that I purchased today. It was between the 950 and the 6020 and I perferred the 950. This is a really great looking set. We had many discussions about both sets. I was not strong armed into the 950 or fed a bunch of BS. For me it was an easy choice (except for size). Salesman=Kuro.

Now I currently have a Pioneer 5071 so there is no bias here but I just have not been impressed with the 6020. I have seen it many times.

I will tell you that this store has many many large glass doors and windows and all the Plasamas just don't look great in this setting. The Elites are in the theater rooms and looked better.

Just to say that not all stores are pushing LCD. I was able to make up my own mind and we will see how it goes.

I am also curious to see what Pioneer does with LCD? Perhaps this will be the real nail? Anyone in Marketing or Program Mgt might suspect that the transition to Panasonic glass is the start of a roadmap to exit the technology. That would be top-secret and purely a thought at this time. My Company roadmaps are about three years out as an FYI but we have the ability to kill products in two if we want to completely exit and restructure our ODM's or our own Mfg lines.

Time will tell.

Rick

most of you guys are like me, have a good set, just want a perfect one. right now i have a 50" 9uk panny plasma. i often say to myself if this set had the blacks the kuros do and better video processing i wouldnt trade it for the world. best thing about buying a set that leaves a little to be desired is knowing what you want in a set that will ultimately satisfy you. then you can kindly sit back and say "this is a set i will keep for atleast 10 years". so how do you effectively futureproof yourself the next time? make a list. a list of features you want in your set and wait on it. if a set comes out that has a good bit of the features you want then id say bite on it. heres my list.

1. 0.00fl blacks
2. 6500k temp. preset
3. all independent memory per input.
4. full color and white balance controls.
5. a mother of all video processing chips.
6. slimmer design
7. lower noise and power consumption.
8. sub 3k on a 60" 1080p set
9. (this is out there) internet connectivity to manufacturers websites for firmware upgrades and such. also being able to upload test patterns from the web right onto the screen.

i realize thats alot, but i only require about half of that list realistically.

you guys should mandate to yourselves what your perfect tv will be and stop letting these manufacturers make a little more sense on an annual basis at the expense of your wallet. if your like me, and your current set is more than adequate, just not perfect, then you are more than in good shape to wait it out.

just want a perfect one
No such thing.

I think the 9th gen non-Elite Kuro I purchased will provide years of enjoyment.

What is 0.0 FL Idle Luminescence?

CRT-level blacks?

So I'm not the only one waiting until 2009 to get a TV.

My plan is to get the lowest end/least expensive 0.0 FL idle luminescence display next year. There is no way I would ever spend over $2,000 for a TV.

Affordable picture quality perfection (absolute black level) is probably only 6-8 months away, and once I get it I'll be a happy man. :)

LOL. If only life were that simple. But alas, black level is only one component of what makes a great picture. There are many others to worry about. Luckily for all of us, once the absolute black levels are acheived we can start focusing on the other components of good picture quality and not have the constant "my black is blacker than your black" rants.

"Plasmas run hot"
This was the one truth shared by the salesman. :p In comparison to LCD (and this is coming from someone who just upgraded from a quality Samsung LCD), Plasmas do produce more heat (which reflects their greater power usage as well).

This was the one truth shared by the salesman. :p In comparison to LCD (and this is coming from someone who just upgraded from a quality Samsung LCD), Plasmas do produce more heat (which reflects their greater power usage as well).

Most peopleknow a plasma runs a little hotter than LCD.
But what the salesman was trying to say was that due to the "Running hot" the color would completly fade in one years time. Which is complete bull.

I never really have understood all the hoo-pla about "running hot". Unless you put the TV in a 5-foot by 5-foot room and sleep right next to it, who cares if plasma runs a little hotter? Maybe some people are very sensitve to heat or something, who knows.

The two sales guys at BB & CC today were pushing alot of bull. I asked the salesman where his 6020 was at BB. he immediatly pointed to a floor setup where they had the 6020 sitting in front of a couch setup.
The salesman kept telling me to sit down on the couch over and over again. I asked him why and he said that to get the full benefit of the 6020, I would need to sit at eye level directly in the middle, because Plasma's picture degrades when you are not directly in the middle and at eye level. Then he claimed that this would not be an issue with LCD. I tried to tell this guy that what he was saying was incorrect, but he took that as an insult and told me that I need to read more about flat-panels and have alot to learn. I simply walked off laughing.

The good thing is that from what I hear, this kind of thing happens alot less in high end stores. One bad thing about living in deep south Alabama is there are zero high end stores. I had never even heard of a magnolia until coming to this forum.
Maybe there is hope in the high end stores for tomorrows plasmas.

I'm in the same boat as a lot of you. I have a panny 700U which is just over a year old and has a great pic but not as good as I would like. Mostly the grayish blacks is the one thing that kind of drives me crazy and almost pushed me to a 9G this year. Then for a number of reasons (reasons that have pictures of dead presidents on them) put me in the wait and see mode. At this point in the year I think it's worth the wait to see what we'll be treated to next year. In a way I'm kind of glad this happened to force me to wait.

By the way, I usually buy now instead of waiting for better tech.

most of you guys are like me, have a good set, just want a perfect one. right now i have a 50" 9uk panny plasma. i often say to myself if this set had the blacks the kuros do and better video processing i wouldnt trade it for the world. best thing about buying a set that leaves a little to be desired is knowing what you want in a set that will ultimately satisfy you. then you can kindly sit back and say "this is a set i will keep for atleast 10 years". so how do you effectively futureproof yourself the next time? make a list. a list of features you want in your set and wait on it. if a set comes out that has a good bit of the features you want then id say bite on it. heres my list.

1. 0.00fl blacks
2. 6500k temp. preset
3. all independent memory per input.
4. full color and white balance controls.
5. a mother of all video processing chips.
6. slimmer design
7. lower noise and power consumption.
8. sub 3k on a 60" 1080p set
9. (this is out there) internet connectivity to manufacturers websites for firmware upgrades and such. also being able to upload test patterns from the web right onto the screen.

i realize thats alot, but i only require about half of that list realistically.

you guys should mandate to yourselves what your perfect tv will be and stop letting these manufacturers make a little more sense on an annual basis at the expense of your wallet. if your like me, and your current set is more than adequate, just not perfect, then you are more than in good shape to wait it out.

Cool list...I like it and your approach!!

With the exception of #5 and #8, all were represented between the two sets I previewed.

I don't know your definition of #5 so cannot comment.

While I'm not sure, I do not think either will be offered at less than 3k simply because both were represented as flagship models and that would be a pretty large drop over the 2008 60" price.

What is 0.0 FL Idle Luminescence?

CRT-level blacks?

Better than CRT. Or any CRT I've ever seen anyways.

What is 0.0 FL Idle Luminescence?

CRT-level blacks?

Better than CRT. Or any CRT I've ever seen anyways.

Next year we will (finally!) be treated to affordable flat panel displays that will be superior to CRT displays in the most important aspect(s) of picture quality. Isn't it wonderful? :D

I've ran the term through Google and came up with nothing. Does anyone have any resources that elaborate on this?

I've put up with crappy black levels for years, and I thought it would only get worse due to LCD penetration---this would be too good to be true.

I've ran the term through Google and came up with nothing. Does anyone have any resources that elaborate on this?

I've put up with crappy black levels for years, and I thought it would only get worse due to LCD penetration---this would be too good to be true.
You mean 0.0 FL Idle Luminescence?

FL is a unit of measurement, short for Foot-Lambert.

Idle Luminescence refers to the "glow" present from all flat panels. Having a low number is part of the equation when users refer to a given display having "good blacks."

For example, the 2008 Kuros claim around 0.001 FL, 2008 LG - 0.008, 2008 Panasonic 0.009, Samsung 0.012.

Those numbers can go up or down based on whose doing the measuring and what equipment they are using.

The 0.0 FL displays I mentioned seeing are dead black unless there is a signal going to any given pixel. No signal and that pixel is a black as the bezel. No measurable light given off when a pixel is idling.

Hope that helps...

most of you guys are like me, have a good set, just want a perfect one. right now i have a 50" 9uk panny plasma. i often say to myself if this set had the blacks the kuros do and better video processing i wouldnt trade it for the world. best thing about buying a set that leaves a little to be desired is knowing what you want in a set that will ultimately satisfy you. then you can kindly sit back and say "this is a set i will keep for atleast 10 years". so how do you effectively futureproof yourself the next time?

10 years? Honestly? Do you remember what televisions were like 10 years ago? I think we are in a time where people who value having high quality picture quality are going to be in the market for a television every 4 years or so. Even if a television has what you mention, there is no reason to believe that this can't be enhanced and made even better into something that makes that set look old and inaccurate. Things will always continue to improve. 10 years seems like a really poor estimate unless you don't plan on using the television regularly.

...For example, the 2008 Kuros claim around 0.001 FL, 2008 LG - 0.008, 2008 Panasonic 0.009, Samsung 0.012.




0.023 -> my Panasonic TH-50PH9UK :( :( :(

But I use bias light so blacks improve a little. :)

.

Purchase a new TV every 4 years? No offense, but get real.

Purchase a new TV every 4 years? No offense, but get real.

yea, i'd say 2 years is more in the neighborhood... ;)

it's interesting... this thread (and a couple others) are the exact same ones that pop up around this time EVERY year... :)

I bought 5 Panasonic Plasmas in the last 7 years. :D

TH-42PW5UZ [PT-42PD3-P]
TH-37PW5UZ [PT-37PD4-P]
TH-37PWD6UY
TH-50PHD8UK
TH-50PH9UK (current)

.

Wow BruZZi, you ever think of looking into a twelve step program?;)

I bought one tv in 6 years-Pioneer 433cmx.It still kicks and only now is something better in the Kuro

Wow BruZZi, you ever think of looking into a twelve step program?;)

I think I should. :p:p:p

I actually bought a month ago what could be my sixth flat panel display...
A Samsung LN-52A650 LCD TV.
I really loved the picture.
Unfortunately I couldn't stand the poor viewing angle. :( :( :(
So I returned the TV a week later to CC.


.

I think i'm going to take a plunge on a 9G non-elite Kuro in the next couple of months.. I've already seen pretty good prices on amazon for the 5020.. and my Sharp LC-46D64U set is looking less good every day compared to the prospect of a Kuro :)

If I get my deposit back for the place I'm in now when I move out in October.. I'll be using that towards a new tv :D

10 years? Honestly? Do you remember what televisions were like 10 years ago? I think we are in a time where people who value having high quality picture quality are going to be in the market for a television every 4 years or so. Even if a television has what you mention, there is no reason to believe that this can't be enhanced and made even better into something that makes that set look old and inaccurate. Things will always continue to improve. 10 years seems like a really poor estimate unless you don't plan on using the television regularly.

I only have to walk to my living room to see what tv's were like 10 years ago. I have a 36" CRT Toshiba that has logged thousands of hours between my own viewing and that of two young children. I bought this beast in '97 and it hasn't missed a beat. I've had it repaired once (a minor soldering job for $50 three years ago) and it's still going strong. Eventually, I'll break down and purchase a nice 50" plasma (that is after the 58" is mounted in the basement) to replace it. However, in the meantime, the kids can put their hands all over it, pause the Tivo for however long it stays and generally beat on it until it goes. The $900 I spent on it was well worth it!

10 years? Honestly? Do you remember what televisions were like 10 years ago? I think we are in a time where people who value having high quality picture quality are going to be in the market for a television every 4 years or so.At $5000(+) a pop... this is extremely doubtful.

Many people posting here may be likely to buy a new TV every 4 years, but the general public certainly is not.

With the 60-100K hours most new TVs are rated for, and at the prices they are selling at, i don't see that changing anytime soon.

I never really have understood all the hoo-pla about "running hot". Unless you put the TV in a 5-foot by 5-foot room and sleep right next to it, who cares if plasma runs a little hotter? Maybe some people are very sensitve to heat or something, who knows.

I care. As should anybody who has forced air climate control that relies on a single thermostat for the entire house.

My 50" Panny can make a difference of several degrees in my 12'x18' TV room even with all the vents in the room closed. It's not unbearable, but it can get uncomfortable at times without reducing the temp for the rest of the house. Having the thermostat in the same room as the TV certainly doesn't help.

Don't want to expand any further on this tangent, just bringing up the point. There is a market for cooler running TVs out there.

I care. As should anybody who has forced air climate control that relies on a single thermostat for the entire house.

My 50" Panny can make a difference of several degrees in my 12'x18' TV room even with all the vents in the room closed. It's not unbearable, but it can get uncomfortable at times without reducing the temp for the rest of the house. Having the thermostat in the same room as the TV certainly doesn't help.

Don't want to expand any further on this tangent, just bringing up the point. There is a market for cooler running TVs out there.

I say that because I have a 60 inch in a very small living room (same room as thermostat) and have not noticed even a hint of heat from the TV. If I stick my head 4 inches from the set I can feel a little heat but I don't watch TV like this.
for a 50 inch TV to increase the temperature several degrees in the room, your set must get pretty hot.

I buy quality, cry once, and expect to keep it 10 years. Zeroing in on a 58" Panny either this year or next. I still use my 9 year old surround sound system and 9 year old Win98 desktop almost everyday. I realize I am not the norm, but I work almost all my purchases that way especially my hobby ones, it allows me to have a bunch of hobbies and not go completely broke.

I buy quality, cry once, and expect to keep it 10 years. Zeroing in on a 58" Panny either this year or next. I still use my 9 year old surround sound system and 9 year old Win98 desktop almost everyday. I realize I am not the norm, but I work almost all my purchases that way especially my hobby ones, it allows me to have a bunch of hobbies and not go completely broke.

I use this same analogy for cars because quite frankly not all models get better with time and remain timeless like the benz's, bmw's, lexus, etc...
perfect example is the all new honda accord, I think it has unfinished business with design areas and looks like they rushed it out to make some deadline. it looks like a rough draft and something that was very ambitious which didn't reach it's final draft.

but for things like HD tvs and receivers, dvd players 10 yrs can seem like like a lifetime with always new neck breaking upgrades and refinement. LIke the sonly gwIII LCD, when it 1st came out in 2003, it was the BOMB, then remember what happens in 04-06, better picture, smaller, lighter... and almost half the price drop from 3K to under 2k.

Thanks for the description, rwr.

I hope that manufacturers don't get sneaky and claim 0.0, but only after you turn down contrast and brightness.

You mean 0.0 FL Idle Luminescence?

FL is a unit of measurement, short for Foot-Lambert.

Idle Luminescence refers to the "glow" present from all flat panels. Having a low number is part of the equation when users refer to a given display having "good blacks."

For example, the 2008 Kuros claim around 0.001 FL, 2008 LG - 0.008, 2008 Panasonic 0.009, Samsung 0.012.

Those numbers can go up or down based on whose doing the measuring and what equipment they are using.

The 0.0 FL displays I mentioned seeing are dead black unless there is a signal going to any given pixel. No signal and that pixel is a black as the bezel. No measurable light given off when a pixel is idling.

Hope that helps...


Are we talking CES 2008 Pioneer ECC level black or something that is close to it?

i think the determinant choice will be price and performance;if next year model can beat the kuro and sell for 1/3 of the price that will be awsome! the best way is to see for yourself in store next to the one u have.

At $5000(+) a pop... this is extremely doubtful.

I am still disagreeing. In 5 years I think most owners of a current gen set would be itching to rotate it into the basement/den/bedroom/bonus room/keeping room/w.e. and take advantage of the new features of that generation.

I don't think it is worth debating though. Just an observation I've seen firsthand as well as experienced.

I say that because I have a 60 inch in a very small living room (same room as thermostat) and have not noticed even a hint of heat from the TV. If I stick my head 4 inches from the set I can feel a little heat but I don't watch TV like this.
for a 50 inch TV to increase the temperature several degrees in the room, your set must get pretty hot.

wow... although i actually have to get close to the set to "feel" the heat coming from the set, i know it's generating a decent amount of heat, because i'd say it's a GOOD 10 degrees warmer in my tv room right now than in the hallway next to it... which is nice in the winter, but even with a large room a/c, it can get downright sweaty in here in the summer...

Are whe talking CES 2008 Pioneer ECC level black or something that is close to it?

That is exactly it - ZERO idle luminescence

Info from CEATEC Japan Panny - http://ex-blog.panasonic.co.jp/exhibition/en/2008/09/ceatec08_230.html

Tru2Way by Christmas via Panny - http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=164948&site=cdn

I say that because I have a 60 inch in a very small living room (same room as thermostat) and have not noticed even a hint of heat from the TV. If I stick my head 4 inches from the set I can feel a little heat but I don't watch TV like this.
for a 50 inch TV to increase the temperature several degrees in the room, your set must get pretty hot.
What did you have in that space prior to the Pioneer? I upgraded from an LCD in an apartment living space and have noticed a significant rise in room temp with the break-in procedure (not to mention the immediate area surrounding the TV itself...and that heat has to exhaust somewhere ;)).

I buy quality, cry once, and expect to keep it 10 years. Zeroing in on a 58" Panny either this year or next. I still use my 9 year old surround sound system and 9 year old Win98 desktop almost everyday. I realize I am not the norm, but I work almost all my purchases that way especially my hobby ones, it allows me to have a bunch of hobbies and not go completely broke.
My opinion, if you've waited 9 years, wait another 6 months.

Those that buy and hold like you do benefit the most from huge advances like what you will see the first half of 2009.

The only other things I could see rivaling it in the near future would be long life OLED or if some smart cookie could figure out how to engineer LED-based LCD units to compensate for off-axis viewing and blooming.

Our previous television was a 36" Sony CRT purchased in the summer of 2002. At the time my hope was that we'd get "five or six years" of service from it, partly in the expectation that there would be a next generation of something beyond the DVD format and partly because that sucker cost the better part of three thousand bucks and I can't afford to do that every other year. But I was aware that my preferred calibration settings were hitting the tube pretty hard, especially when it was in "squeeze" mode for anamorphic DVD or HDTV broadcast. So my concern was that it would wear out sooner than that.

As it turned out, the picture quality took a turn for the worse as the sixth anniversary was coming up. And it wouldn't really achieve a good-looking calibration or full brightness for the past several months. So last week we decided to bite the bullet and upgrade to a digital display and a Blu-Ray player, having gotten six years plus a bit from the old beast.

Does anyone have a feel for the relative effective lifespan of a Panny plasma display as compared to a 1080i CRT? I'd guess plasma technology has been on the market long enough to establish a track record but frankly I haven't been paying attention. Is it reasonable to expect to get about the same 10-12 hours/week for six years from this 50PX80U as we experience with a 36XBR800? I must say it would be much less upsetting to replace a one thousand dollar TV a couple years early than it would have been for one that cost three times as much but I'm still thinking six years ought to be very achievable given than it's seldom turned on for more than a couple hours in a day and many days not at all.

I would not of course expect a $300 electromechanical DVD player to last all that long. Then again, this BD30 doesn't seem nearly as flimsy as our now-classic RP91. What a crummy little ankle-biter that piece of junk seemed but it stayed in there plugging away with a great picture year after year.

at 10-12 hours of usage per week, i'd say you are good for (conservatively) 75 years or so... ;) with numbers like 100,000 hour half-life being thrown around for modern plasmas, i think that the great majority will replace their sets LONG before the pq degrades to any significant degree....

ymmv...

Until the source materials catch up, I do not think that even most enthusiasts would replace every 4 years. I have a 50" 9UK. The newer sets are very nice, but my set still makes me very happy. If money were no object, sure, I may go out and get a newer set. But there are plenty of $2-3K projects and toys out there that currently would come first. Now, if I were receiving 1080P signals from FIOS or streaming it off of the net, I would almost certainly upgrade in size and native resolution.

Are whe talking CES 2008 Pioneer ECC level black or something that is close to it?

Yes we are....

They need to be upping the ante with Motion, i'm still not plunging into HD unless i can get a set that handles motion as well as a CRT, and of course Color

They need to be upping the ante with Motion, i'm still not plunging into HD unless i can get a set that handles motion as well as a CRT, and of course Color

you just aren't looking at the right sets... ;)

you just aren't looking at the right sets... ;)

Alright, well how does the Samsung Series 9 LCDs fare? as well as the best Pioneer Kurus(which received a 4.5 rating from Cnet stating it is the best HDTV on the market) and not to mention the Samsung 550s?

And forget about Blacks, there's no worries there because the best HDTVS out there are perfect regarding this(at least for me)....Motion/response time and color are the 2 only worries as far as i'm concerned.

well, i can tell you that motion isn't an issue on my 8g kuro... and the color certainly doesn't lack... :)

can't comment on lcd sets... don't know anything about them...

(Edit)Wrong thread.

Panny 50/58/65 @ CEATEC Japan Panny 24.7 mm (0.97") thick & Wireless HD - http://panasonic.net/exhibition/ceatec2008/popup/index.html

Panny 50/58/65 @ CEATEC Japan Panny 24.7 mm (0.97") thick & Wireless HD - http://panasonic.net/exhibition/ceatec2008/popup/index.html
Any idea what the % price premium will be on the 50" plasma?

I think a question like this changes on an individual basis. While I can't comment or even recommend what to do for others I can share my own situation and view. In essence I have been "waiting for next year" since 2005 while I had begun my research for my dream tv in 2004. Part of it fence sitting and part of it was other things came up but alas here we are in late 2008 and I am now finally in a position to get my dream setup.

I am right smack dab in the process of it right now. I picked up a center channel speaker and a sub last week to go with my exisiting 4 speakers for a decent 5.1 setup (someday I will go full 7.1 setup with a top of the line Paradigm signature series set but that is a bit down the road) I talked with a custom woodmaker to make the entertainment housing I want. I meet with him at the beginning of next week to finalize the plans. (As a side note this has been the hardest part of my HT setup. Finding the right component housing has been hell and I could find nothing I wanted so I just had one designed myself and crafted how I wanted it) I know the receiver I want and I will be ordering it soon and I have an Oppo 983 on order as we speak. Last but not least we come to the tv itself, the centerpiece of my own personal nirvana.

I am still battling back and forth on whether to go with the 111 or the 151. I want the 151 but man there is a pretty good price difference on some of the 111 deals going on that are making me take pause. Anyway. This will be my first HDTV and I absolutely love the Kuro. My entire life I have nothing to speak of SDTV's. My childhood consisted of a family console tv in the living room that was 25". When I was old enough to have a tv in my bedroom I had a 19". My time in the Navy I had a 19" When I first got home from the Navy in 1999 I bought a 25". 4.5 years ago when I bought my log cabin home I upgraded to a whopping 27" that I thought had a nice picture.

I'm not a total videophile. Hey I love a good picture and can be wowed but I can also appreaciate a normal tv too. With that being said I am so ready for this tv. Since 2005 I have been reading reviews, opinions, every scrap of info I could find. I have been viewing tv's in person and comparing and frankly I am really ready. I don't want to wait until "next year" because I have been doing that far too long. Will next years product be better. Sure it will. I think there is something to be said though for having my "dream tv" in my living room a month or 2 from now instead of next year. Everytime I wait a year then the entire process starts over again. Reviews, studying, learning, comparing. It gets old when you never settle on anything.

As for the TOTAL blacks. I know this might seem blasphemous but I don't care. They are already amazing to me and the picture is pure bliss. I KNOW for a fact I will not suffer from buyers remorse on a 9G Kuro when the 10G come out. This tv will make me like a little giddy kid on christmas morning, only it will be every single day. I will gladly keep this tv as my main unit for a solid 5 years, even up to 7 years or whatever the time frame happens to be for when OLED becomes mainstream affordable in the bigger sizes.

At that point I will move this Kuro to the bedroom where I currently have that crappy 25" that I bought 9 years ago when I first got home from the Navy, only it will be the 27" one I have as my main tv right now. I will then ride that Kuro till it dies as a bedroom tv. I can understand that people who already have a great Kuro or other Plasma or even a great LCD can sit and wait. I have nothing though and it makes it all the harder to sit by. Every situation is different and I think for me in my situation, waiting another year does me no good. It would be too big of a letdown to wait another year. This is my year. I will glady own a 9G Kuro and never look back and will not pout when the 10G's come out. I will congratulate people on their new amazing tv and I will go back to my tv which will still be amazing.

I think a question like this changes on an individual basis. While I can't comment or even recommend what to do for others I can share my own situation and view. In essence I have been "waiting for next year" since 2005 while I had begun my research for my dream tv in 2004. Part of it fence sitting and part of it was other things came up but alas here we are in late 2008 and I am now finally in a position to get my dream setup.

I am right smack dab in the process of it right now. I picked up a center channel speaker and a sub last week to go with my exisiting 4 speakers for a decent 5.1 setup (someday I will go full 7.1 setup with a top of the line Paradigm signature series set but that is a bit down the road) I talked with a custom woodmaker to make the entertainment housing I want. I meet with him at the beginning of next week to finalize the plans. (As a side note this has been the hardest part of my HT setup. Finding the right component housing has been hell and I could find nothing I wanted so I just had one designed myself and crafted how I wanted it) I know the receiver I want and I will be ordering it soon and I have an Oppo 983 on order as we speak. Last but not least we come to the tv itself, the centerpiece of my own personal nirvana.

I am still battling back and forth on whether to go with the 111 or the 151. I want the 151 but man there is a pretty good price difference on some of the 111 deals going on that are making me take pause. Anyway. This will be my first HDTV and I absolutely love the Kuro. My entire life I have nothing to speak of SDTV's. My childhood consisted of a family console tv in the living room that was 25". When I was old enough to have a tv in my bedroom I had a 19". My time in the Navy I had a 19" When I first got home from the Navy in 1999 I bought a 25". 4.5 years ago when I bought my log cabin home I upgraded to a whopping 27" that I thought had a nice picture.

I'm not a total videophile. Hey I love a good picture and can be wowed but I can also appreaciate a normal tv too. With that being said I am so ready for this tv. Since 2005 I have been reading reviews, opinions, every scrap of info I could find. I have been viewing tv's in person and comparing and frankly I am really ready. I don't want to wait until "next year" because I have been doing that far too long. Will next years product be better. Sure it will. I think there is something to be said though for having my "dream tv" in my living room a month or 2 from now instead of next year. Everytime I wait a year then the entire process starts over again. Reviews, studying, learning, comparing. It gets old when you never settle on anything.

As for the TOTAL blacks. I know this might seem blasphemous but I don't care. They are already amazing to me and the picture is pure bliss. I KNOW for a fact I will not suffer from buyers remorse on a 9G Kuro when the 10G come out. This tv will make me like a little giddy kid on christmas morning, only it will be every single day. I will gladly keep this tv as my main unit for a solid 5 years, even up to 7 years or whatever the time frame happens to be for when OLED becomes mainstream affordable in the bigger sizes.

At that point I will move this Kuro to the bedroom where I currently have that crappy 25" that I bought 9 years ago when I first got home from the Navy, only it will be the 27" one I have as my main tv right now. I will then ride that Kuro till it dies as a bedroom tv. I can understand that people who already have a great Kuro or other Plasma or even a great LCD can sit and wait. I have nothing though and it makes it all the harder to sit by. Every situation is different and I think for me in my situation, waiting another year does me no good. It would be too big of a letdown to wait another year. This is my year. I will glady own a 9G Kuro and never look back and will not pout when the 10G's come out. I will congratulate people on their new amazing tv and I will go back to my tv which will still be amazing.
Given your past ownership of "nothing to speak of SDTVs," my guess is that you do not require an intense amount of fine PQ controls. If that is the case and you are on the fence between the 111 and 151 because of price, why not consider the 6020?

The difference between a 50" and 60" display is striking.

Finally, for the most part, I'm with you on the "good enough" argument. However, having seen the 0 FL displays and knowing it's October now, the distance between now and the new displays is pretty darn small...anyway something to consider.

Finally, for the most part, I'm with you on the "good enough" argument. However, having seen the 0 FL displays and knowing it's October now, the distance between now and the new displays is pretty darn small...anyway something to consider.



What 0fl display are you thinking and what size?

IMO...buy nothing that is either too large or too expensive to be moved into your bedroom next year.

I was treated to an insider's view of two different manufacturers next generation pre-production models about three weeks ago.

I cannot reveal which MFRs they were or go into any details, so no sense in asking, but here are few bullets:


0.0 FL Idle Luminescence
THX
Amazing color accuracy
WiFi
Dead silent operation


Some of these will be released staggered by screen size, but you will see the first of them in about six months.
^^^ Previous post referenced as answer to your question. Providing a specific size might help reveal the MFR so best I can say is, "bigger than 50" and smaller than 70"

I'm cautiously optimistic there will be another "event" where the remaining two major MFRs will demonstrate their 2009 displays. If that comes through and I get to attend, then I'll be able to provide more info since everyone knows who the 4 major MFRs are in the space. At this point I don't even know if the remaining two will have 0 FL displays for 2009.

Does anyone have a feel for the relative effective lifespan of a Panny plasma display as compared to a 1080i CRT? I'd guess plasma technology has been on the market long enough to establish a track record but frankly I haven't been paying attention. Is it reasonable to expect to get about the same 10-12 hours/week for six years from this 50PX80U as we experience with a 36XBR800? I must say it would be much less upsetting to replace a one thousand dollar TV a couple years early than it would have been for one that cost three times as much but I'm still thinking six years ought to be very achievable given than it's seldom turned on for more than a couple hours in a day and many days not at all.


Are you serious? 10-12 hours per WEEK?

Here's a comparison: I just gave my 5 1/2 year old Panny Th42PW5UZ (EDTV plasma) to a relative.....I didn't check the hours on it, but will check in the coming weeks when I visit next time. I was viewing my old display several days ago....relatives are raving about the image quality, brightness, colors, etc. That's on an almost 6 year old plasma using "cinema" settings.

I'm guessing the display has well over 10,000 hours on it cuz it was our primary TV (stay at home wife....2 teenagers....XBOX...DVDs...etc....And its half-life, I believe, is either 15,000 or 30,000 hours....the PX80 has a half-life of 100,000 hours.

You should not worry at all. The PX80 may out-live you.:eek:

BTW....my old display cost $4,000 in March 2003. I replaced that 42" EDTV display (with awesome PQ) with the TH50PX80u that cost under $900........I have no regrets/buyers remorse, etc.....even if something bigger and way better is 6-12 months away...this set is a keeper and I can enjoy the hell out of it for very little investment.

This is my year.
Or next..
;)

I just bought a plasma in july and for the time i was happy because it launch in march so that was new technologie back then.But now that the black is not very black for me it's more like grey black and that bugs me a lot.You should know that wachting tv a lot and to be unsatisfied really get you mad after you paid a premium price for it,so i decided to sell it and to wait for the 0.0 idl luminescense true black and only then i will be satisfied.Because you gonna live a long time with it so it better be good.

Given your past ownership of "nothing to speak of SDTVs," my guess is that you do not require an intense amount of fine PQ controls. If that is the case and you are on the fence between the 111 and 151 because of price, why not consider the 6020?

The difference between a 50" and 60" display is striking.

Finally, for the most part, I'm with you on the "good enough" argument. However, having seen the 0 FL displays and knowing it's October now, the distance between now and the new displays is pretty darn small...anyway something to consider.



I may have only had SDTV's so far but that doesn't mean I don't want the absolute best there is so far with the most control options available for me. Besides from everything I have read once the ISF modes are enabled it pretty much takes the tv into a new stratosphere. While the 6020 and 5020 are really nice tv's, in fact the 5020 was the one I viewed in peron first that got me hooked on a Kuro, but when I dive in I want the absolute best.

Also once again its easy for you to talk about distance out for the new tv's as I'm sure you already have a pretty decent HDTV. 1 year for you won't mean much considering you have a good tv. I don't. Big difference. Also I can't stress enough that even if next years tv's are leaps and bounds ahead of this years sets, that doesn't make this years sets bad. They are amazing tv's and they will STILL be amazing tv's 3 and 4 years from now. The "good enough" stance applies just fine for me as this tv is more than good enough to hold me over until OLED becomes affordable to me.

I may have only had SDTV's so far but that doesn't mean I don't want the absolute best there is so far with the most control options available for me. Besides from everything I have read once the ISF modes are enabled it pretty much takes the tv into a new stratosphere. While the 6020 and 5020 are really nice tv's, in fact the 5020 was the one I viewed in peron first that got me hooked on a Kuro, but when I dive in I want the absolute best.

Also once again its easy for you to talk about distance out for the new tv's as I'm sure you already have a pretty decent HDTV. 1 year for you won't mean much considering you have a good tv. I don't. Big difference. Also I can't stress enough that even if next years tv's are leaps and bounds ahead of this years sets, that doesn't make this years sets bad. They are amazing tv's and they will STILL be amazing tv's 3 and 4 years from now. The "good enough" stance applies just fine for me as this tv is more than good enough to hold me over until OLED becomes affordable to me.
Gotcha...

Then I'd adjust my question to be, "Have you considered the Signature 141?" Seems you are building out your audio as well so might not need the speakers / tuners present in the 151 and the 141 does have some additional goodies in addition to promising better build quality. There are a couple threads contrasting the two.

Gotcha...

Then I'd adjust my question to be, "Have you considered the Signature 141?" Seems you are building out your audio as well so might not need the speakers / tuners present in the 151 and the 141 does have some additional goodies in addition to promising better build quality. There are a couple threads contrasting the two.

Yes I have considered it and I read through the entire thread. Not to open a can of worms and definitely no disrespect to 141 owners but for my own situation I can't justify it. You lose ATSC tuner, amplifier, speakers, stand, Home Media Gallery and USB port compared to the 151. On top of that the MSRP is 500 more and you also don't get a stand. Altough I was originally going to wall mount I am having a custom made component housing made and I plan on using the stand.

Whether I ever use the tuner or other features doesn't matter. The point is I would feel more comfortable having them there and having a tv and not just a monitor. Sure it is slimmer and you gain some internet capabilities but I will never use it for internet purposes and considering the tube tv's I have owned over the course of my life even the 151 seems as thin as a piece of paper to me. I essentially gain nothing going with a 141 and lose things I am not comfortable giving up. Especially the speakers. While I do use my receiver the majority of the time it is not 100% I would say more like 80% and that is because my current tv has the worst sound in the world. When I got some hands on time with the 151 the one thing I did was turn up the speakers to check the sound and with the decent sound it provides I could see more times when I would just use the tv speakers and not turn everything on and crank it up.

Again no disrespect to 141 owners as I am sure it fits their needs but for myself personally I can't see spending yet even more money only to be stripped of something i would prefer to have, such as the speakers and tuner. The 141 is just not a viable option for me.

Any idea what the % price premium will be on the 50" plasma?

The 5 lumens 2009 are supposed to be significantly less to make.
The ? is if these savings are passed along?

I'll tell you what I'd like to see from 2009: A departure from the annoying tendency of manufacturers to "add value" to their high end models by removing the most mundane of features, such as per-input settings and adequate color controls, from their midrange parts.

There's no reason, in 2008, to suggest that features that should have been considered standard ten or more years ago should be exclusive to the "elite"s, especially among product lines where the least offering is in excess of $1k. Next, they'll be telling us remote controls are a "feature" that should command another few hundred dollars. Fair enough if their sets have some hardware difference that would justify such price differentiation, but from where I'm sitting, having access to adequate color controls shouldn't be an option subject to a $500-$2k price premium.

Oh, and I also think that 3:2 cadence detection for all resolutions and re-assembly of 24p material from 1080i should be automated for all sets including a multiple of 24 refresh rate option. Automated meaning if I select the function once, I should not have to go remote-diving every time I change the channel or go from one program to the next. It's 2008, for chrissakes.

I'll tell you what I'd like to see from 2009: A departure from the annoying tendency of manufacturers to "add value" to their high end models by removing the most mundane of features, such as per-input settings and adequate color controls, from their midrange parts.

There's no reason, in 2008, to suggest that features that should have been considered standard ten or more years ago should be exclusive to the "elite"s, especially among product lines where the least offering is in excess of $1k. Next, they'll be telling us remote controls are a "feature" that should command another few hundred dollars.

Fair enough if their sets have some hardware difference that would justify such price differentiation, but from where I'm sitting, having access to adequate color controls shouldn't be an option subject to a $500-$2k price premium.


Well said.

Clearly Pioneer was reaching for a way to offer a more competitive price on their Kuro Plasma while not losing the extra profit they get from the Elite. Removing settings that are common on their competitor's sets wasn't a good answer.

Perhaps that's why there's talk they won't have an "Elite" Kuro model in 10g or at least less seperation. Clearly they had practically the same display unit and needed to artificially create value. To enforce it even further they place artificial restrictions on how the units can be sold. When other manufacturers provide equal black level of 0 that job gets even tougher and they'll have to sell on recognition of higher general quality.

Be interesting to see their approach in 10g in terms of both features and pricing. Do they hold the line on price even if other manufacturers are much lower along with improved quality? There are times it does indeed pay to wait (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14795657#post14795657).

If Pioneer really wants to become more price competitive with other manufacturers they should move their factory/assembly operations from Japan/USA to Mexico :eek: where they could crank out more affordable, if not-so-Elite, displays for substantially less.

If Pioneer really wants to become more price competitive with other manufacturers they should move their factory/assembly operations from Japan/USA to Mexico :eek: where they could crank out more affordable, if not-so-Elite, displays for substantially less.

I certainly hope they never do that.
quality would go to the birds.

I certainly hope they never do that.
quality would go to the birds.True, but how much longer can Pioneer continue to play the "loss-leader" role and keep on making high-end PDPs?

In this economy, with the Vizio's of the world gobbling up the display market, I am not confident that Pioneer has much of a long term future in the PDP business.

Is there really a build quality difference between a Pio and, say, a Panasonic? Not in terms of picture or features, mind you (there are obvious differences there), but in terms of durability, build quality, servicable life, measured variations in production of like model, etc?

I think at the price that a plasma display commands, you're probably looking at an expectation from the consumer of servicability to 5-7 years or so (imho). Is there enough of a difference in Pioneer build quality to make up for the price premium? I know they can sell tvs on pq alone, but does anyone have any concrete figures on reliability? I'm not seeing Pana's going back to the stores in droves, and once the picture quality gap is closed, you have to look somewhere else to find reason to command their kind of price.

I think consumer reports found that panasonic had the least amount of repairs. That's even more amazing considering how many of them are sold.

I think consumer reports found that panasonic had the least amount of repairs. That's even more amazing considering how many of them are sold.

This is correct. The repair rate for both their plasmas and LCDs is 2%, lowest in the industry.

This is correct. The repair rate for both their plasmas and LCDs is 2%, lowest in the industry.


Crazy impressive....no wonder Panasonic is taking over the PDP market:eek:

My contention is that Pioneer, if they didn't regulate those mundane features I talked about a few posts ago, could have had a real contender in the **20 series to steal a lot of mainstream business away from Pana. If they could have, in effect, pushed the elites closer to the price territory of an 800/850 (the 5020 and the elites being basically the same panel), then I think they'd have achieved more profit.

Simply put, I don't think there's enough in the **20's bag of tricks to differentiate it to the degree necessary in the mind of the average consumer, not with features like color controls moved into "elite" territory. Pioneer could have, imho, had a decisive features/quality win across the board in that segment, justified the price difference, and sold tons of the same panel in the higher volume midrange segment...instead, they managed to get most of the media once again behind the Pana's in terms of reviews and "bang for the buck" comparisons. Yeah, I know they're after the high-dollar camp with the elites, but I just don't understand the decision making process that led to the 20 series. I would think, even at half the margin or worse, that the increased sales in the midrange would have been worthwhile.

imo, the "average consumer" doesn't even know what color controls are, let alone care about them...

that's not saying anything bad about the "average consumer"... it's just reality...

don't underestimate "brand loyalty" for ce equipment for the "average consumer"... take my old man for example... nothing but sony equipment will do, because "you know son, sony is the best"...

imo, the "average consumer" doesn't even know what color controls are, let alone care about them...

that's not saying anything bad about the "average consumer"... it's just reality...

don't underestimate "brand loyalty" for ce equipment for the "average consumer"... take my old man for example... nothing but sony equipment will do, because "you know son, sony is the best"...

I agree to a certain extent, but I also believe that there's many consumers out there who read, and take to the bank, reviews from sources such as CR and CNET. That, and your big box store that does calibrations could be showcasing color accuracy a little bit better...accuracy over and above your average "vivid" setting on a set in torch mode really is a big differnce, in my eyes, to the point where I honestly can't believe that it wouldn't interest people, even amongst the contrast arm-wrestling that goes on at your average wall of tvs. Even at Magnolia, next to your average torch, the sets with good greyscale, accurate decoding, and deep blacks stand out.

Its not that I believe that the average consumer does all the research like some of us do, or compares with a critical eye while realizing the tricks built in to the store environment...but I do believe that the marketing and deployment just hasn't been right to get the message out properly. I feel that having adequate color controls in the non-elite pios would have the effect of wowing the reviewers, who, in turn, would more actively tout the value and performance in their comparison charts. May be the low idle luminescence is beside the point for the average consumer, but the tv's standing in the comparison charts in Consumer Reports is not, imho.

Well said.

Clearly Pioneer was reaching for a way to offer a more competitive price on their Kuro Plasma while not losing the extra profit they get from the Elite. Removing settings that are common on their competitor's sets wasn't a good answer.



I agree.

You know, I have racked my brain trying to figure out what the real reason was for Pioneer taking all the settings away from the 9Gnon-elites.

Maybe it was to make things easier for the customer who doesn't take advantage of all those features like I have heard, maybe not.

Maybe it was to push more people towards the elites, who knows.

I kinda wonder if it might have been to save the Elite line from doing badly in sales.
I mean think about it, If the 9g non-elites had the same pro-adjust features that the 8G non-elites had, How many of us Elite owners would have actually bought an elite 9G?
There would be basically very very little difference between the 9G Elites and 9G non-elites if Pioneer wouldn't have taken all the settings away.

Last years (the 8G's) Elites had a different Filter than the non-elites that provided slightly better black levels. This year they are not different.

There is no way I would have bought an Elite 9G if they had not taken all the settings away from the 9g non-elites. I don't think many peole would have either. but I may be wrong.

Pioneer stripped their PDP-xx20FD series of the features that most other manufacturers include at this price point in order to "artificially" prop up the price for their Elite & Signature series PDPs.

IMO most consumers who buy a Pioneer PDP do so with credit and those days are gone... the era of the $6,500 & up TV is over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim
Well said.

Clearly Pioneer was reaching for a way to offer a more competitive price on their Kuro Plasma while not losing the extra profit they get from the Elite. Removing settings that are common on their competitor's sets wasn't a good answer.


I agree.

You know, I have racked my brain trying to figure out what the real reason was for Pioneer taking all the settings away from the 9Gnon-elites.

Maybe it was to make things easier for the customer who doesn't take advantage of all those features like I have heard, maybe not.

Maybe it was to push more people towards the elites, who knows.

I kinda wonder if it might have been to save the Elite line from doing badly in sales.
I mean think about it, If the 9g non-elites had the same pro-adjust features that the 8G non-elites had, How many of us Elite owners would have actually bought an elite 9G?
There would be basically very very little difference between the 9G Elites and 9G non-elites if Pioneer wouldn't have taken all the settings away.

Last years (the 8G's) Elites had a different Filter than the non-elites that provided slightly better black levels. This year they are not different.

There is no way I would have bought an Elite 9G if they had not taken all the settings away from the 9g non-elites. I don't think many peole would have either. but I may be wrong.

I think we can be confident that Pioneer's reasons were based on their own financial calculations as to how they would make more money overall in positioning the Elite vs. the Non-Elite. They figured this would sell more Elites at the higher profit margin. "Making it simpler for consumers" is marketing gibberish.

At the same time I think it's reasonable to use software settings to give advantage to the Elite. They simply went a little too far because what they had on previous Non-Elite models was enough.

No need to remove color temp and lock built-in settings along with Service menu. Elite's still had ISF, "pure", more memory settings to make them attractive to Pioneers highest end customers.

I've learned that the built-in A/V modes can be used to pretty good effect as settings for different looks but there was no need to lock it as much as Pioneer did. Elites would sell anyway but Pioneer made their competitors high end models more attractive with this move.

I fall into one of those weird categories. I am somewhere above the average joe consumer but at the same time I completely relate to them these days. TV purchases used to be pretty basic and easy imho, and they definitely don't feel that way any more. I am the last guy that goes into a store and trusts the salesman. At the same time I start to do my research and find myself deeper and deeper until my head explodes. As a result I put off my upgrades for another 6 months or so. For some reason monitors, tvs, and audio have always been categories I just don't easily grasp especially since so much of it seems to be personal preference.

To give you an idea how long I have been putting it off, the two sets I currently use are a 32" JVC AV-32D501 I believe and a 36" JVC AV36D104. I may be off in the model numbers but those are close if not it. I am still using my first DVD player, a Sony DVP-S550D. I don't even own a home theater surround system even though I have thought of doing it since I moved in this house 9 years or so ago.

I know in the next year or so especially with the new HD Dtivo due out, I will probably make the jump on at least one of the TVs. Then again I have said that every year. At one point I finally gave up and said I will make the switch when everything I watch is broadcast in HD which is coming quicker and quicker.

Pioneer's removing functionality from 9g non-elite sets reminds me of the first Centronics printer I bought. It was a heavy-duty model that could run 11" or 14" fan-fold all day long. I bought it on sale, and it had only uppercase letters.

I had a slight problem after a month. The tech who came to my house was a real nice guy. He showed me where the problem was (a wire had come loose) and fixed it. I asked him why the dot-matrix printer didn't have lower case. He explained that all these models had lower case, VFU for forms, variable line spacing and a lot of other features, but I had the basic $1,000 model. But then he mentioned that in fact, every printer iof this model had all the features built-in, but that various plugs turned off the features on the lower end models.

We were getting along really well, and he volunteered to bring an unlocked module for me. He plugged it in, gave me a slim manual that explained the new controls and options, tested it, and left.

What really bothered me about the experience was that Centronics was not offering the most full-featured prodect they could make for a given price, but were deliberately crippling the product so they could make incremental charges as portions of the blocking circuits were removed. Actually, the device was a 16-pin sealed flat pack. Options were disabled by breaking certain electrical lines before the module was sealed

So, the question I would have is whether there are discinct differences in the circuitry, or whether sertain options have merely disabled in the non-elite KURO.

So with them removing the controls, is that the only difference between the elites and now elites? I fall into the category of people that can live with a calibration done by myself on the non-elite if it is indeed the exact same set. Thanks for the help.

I fall into one of those weird categories. I am somewhere above the average joe consumer but at the same time I completely relate to them these days. TV purchases used to be pretty basic and easy imho, and they definitely don't feel that way any more. I am the last guy that goes into a store and trusts the salesman. At the same time I start to do my research and find myself deeper and deeper until my head explodes. As a result I put off my upgrades for another 6 months or so. For some reason monitors, tvs, and audio have always been categories I just don't easily grasp especially since so much of it seems to be personal preference.

To give you an idea how long I have been putting it off, the two sets I currently use are a 32" JVC AV-32D501 I believe and a 36" JVC AV36D104. I may be off in the model numbers but those are close if not it. I am still using my first DVD player, a Sony DVP-S550D. I don't even own a home theater surround system even though I have thought of doing it since I moved in this house 9 years or so ago.

I know in the next year or so especially with the new HD Dtivo due out, I will probably make the jump on at least one of the TVs. Then again I have said that every year. At one point I finally gave up and said I will make the switch when everything I watch is broadcast in HD which is coming quicker and quicker.

Well, your life just got even more difficult! There is another really strong TV on the market now...

http://hdguru.com/mitsubishi-laservue-l65-a90-first-tech-review-hd-guru-exclusive/310/

Ed