I was wondering wondering what channels you pick up OTA in your area, and where you are located. Also what networks are they? I was wondering if people in NYC or LA get like 30+ OTA channels and what networks they are? I can look on tvfool, but I am wondering what is realistic.

I get:

ABC WJRT
NBC WEYI
CBS WNEM
FOX WSMH
CW WBSF
MYNetwork
2 different PBS stations (+ 2 sub channels) WDCP and WCMU
1 Religious network
1 extra digital subchannels

So I get 12 digital station in Midland, MI.

For mine, follow the link in my signature. I count 17 that I can usually receive 24/7, plus two that are marginal during the day but OK during the evening/night, plus three that seldom come in during the day but do come in most nights. That's a total of 22 "useful" stations. These are separate stations, without regard for subchannels. The total number of subchannels is 53.

Including all stations that I've ever received, the count rises to 44, with 109 subchannels.

Z-z-z-z-z....
You get what you can get based on antenna type, mounting, location, elevation, home construction, line of sight, etc.....
That's realistic. ;)

I get about 30 OTA digital stations 60 miles out of Washington DC. I have a Channel Master 4228 mounted in my attic.

I get the following just outside London in the UK - I've only listed the free-to-air services - and not the couple of encrypted pay-TV streams, and it is important to note that in some cases the channels are time exclusive as although they have different LCNs, they share the same bandwith. (BBC Three on LCN7 is time-exclusive with the CBBC Channel on LCN70 - they appear as separate services, but share the same video and audio streams, with a digital text holding caption appearing when they are not on-air)

(All SD of course - though many are 16:9 SD):

BBC One, BBC Two, ITV1, Channel 4 and Five are all simulcast on analogue (S4C replaces Channel Four on analogue in Wales and carries Welsh language content in addition to some Channel Four English shows, though on digital OTA both the English language Channel Four AND an all Welsh S4C Digidol channel are carried)

Channel Name, Logical Channel Number, Mux Label

BBC One 1 1
BBC Two 2 1
ITV 1 3 2
Channel 4 4 2
Five 5 A
ITV 2 6 2
BBC Three 7 1
BBC Four 9 B
ITV 3 10 2
Sky Three 11 C
UK TV History 12 C
Channel 4 + 1 13 2
More4 14 2
QVC 16 A
The Hits 18 D
Dave 19 D
Virgin 1 20 D
TMF 21 D
Ideal World 22 D
Bid TV 23 A
Price Drop TV 24 A
ITV 4 28 2
E4 29 D
E4+1 30 C
ITV 2 + 1 31 D
Film 4 32 D
Five US 35 A
Fiver 36 A
Smile TV 37 C
Nuts TV 42
CBBC Channel 70 1
CBeebies 71 B
CITV 75 2
BBC News 24 80 1
BBC Parliament 81 B
Sky News 82 C
Sky Sports News 83 C
Community Channel 87 B
Teachers TV 88 A

There are also two full-screen interactive TV services on the BBC Press Red 301 and 302 channel on Mux B, along with 4 quarter-resolution news streams on channel 303 on Mux B.

There are 5 data services, and over 25 radio services as well.

(The Logical Channel Number is the channel number that the user sees on-screen - so BBC One is always on Channel 1 on analogue or digital OTA - wherever you live in the UK, you don't have to know which RF channel it - or the mux it is in - is actually broadcast on.)

In Bakersfield California I get 1 VHF full power (KERO ABC RF 10 virtual 23 no subchannels), 3 UHF full power (KGET NBC RF 25 virtual 17 with CW on a subchannel, KBAK CBS RF 33 virtual 29 with Fisher's co-owned KBFX-CA FOX on a subchannel virtual 58, and KUVI MYTV RF 55 virtual 45 (moving to 45 in February) SD only no subchannels) and one UHF low power (K18HD, translator of KVPT PBS Fresno with PBSHD and V-ME on subchannels). I get these with rabbit ears (yes, rabbit ears for UHF, they work better than the little loop antennas). And of course numerous analog channels that I don't watch.

Z-z-z-z-z....
You get what you can get based on antenna type, mounting, location, elevation, home construction, line of sight, etc.....And tropo, and e-skip. ;)

Varies from day to day with me, especially at this time of year. I have actually gotten up to 75-80 channels and subchannels at times, with about 50 of those ever having anything most people would want to actually watch. But that's rare.

(edit: I just went through them, and there's about 38 mains and subchannels that I normally get that are worth watching. Some of those are Milwaukee channels that often only come in at night.)

75-80? Really that is crazy. It seems like there would be channel overlap. Is there like 10 different ABC affiliates?

I get 17 channels in Houston, more if you count the various subchannels.

Pittsburgh
KDKA-2
WTAE-4 (-1 HD, -2 Weather & Traffic Watch 4)
WPXI-11 (-1 HD, -2 WeatherPlus, -3 RTN)
WQED-13 (-1 PBS HD, -2 WQED simulcast, -3 The Neighborhood Channel)
WQEX-16
WPMY-22 (-1 HD, -2 SD simulcast)
WPCB-40
WPGH-53 (-1 HD, -2 SD simulcast)

Johnstown/Altoona
WPSU-3 (-1 PBS HD, -2 WPSU simulcast, -3 WPSU World)
WWCP-8 (-1 HD, -2 WATM simulcast)

Stations in italics are only received occasionally.

Z-z-z-z-z....
You get what you can get based on antenna type, mounting, location, elevation, home construction, line of sight, etc.....
That's realistic. ;)

Location is everything.

I get 2

Samsung with 4228 or 91xg

Digital, except for CBS and PBS, sucks

I was wondering if people in NYC or LA get like 30+ OTA channels and what networks they are?

In the LA area at 51 miles, I get 22 DTV stations with 56 channels, including sub-channels. CM4228 (& YA1713) in the attic with 7777 pre-amp. All are solid with no problems other than a rare drop-out. All major OTA networks and 3 PBS stations are present along with quite a few Spanish and Asian stations. The antennas do not need to be moved/turned for these results. All are UHF now, though I have the YA1713 for analog 7-13 tests.

In the Mystic, CT area, at 51 miles (also with a 4228 & YA1713 in the attic) to both Providence and Hartford, I was able to get 6 stations on my last trip (July), including:

WTNH/10 (ABC)
WPXQ/17 (ion)
WFTY/23 (telm - 60 miles - Long Island)
WHPX/34 (ion)
WVIT/35 (NBC - only at night and unreliable)
WEDN/45 (PBS - now on 9)

With WEDH-DT now operating, it should expand to 7 on my next visit.

I had better success getting WNYW (Fox) and WCBS from NYC (with a 3rd antenna) than I did from Hartford or Providence as respects those networks. Hopefully, WTIC-DT (Fox) and WTXX-DT (CW) will appear in February when they move to the top of the WTIC tower. CBS is probably hopeless in the summer unless WPRI/13 is granted an ERP increase.

It is a tale of two coasts.

I get the following just outside London in the UK

Are these from Crystal Palace, Reigate or another site? Strong co-location seems to be even more important in the DTV world and the UK has a significant advantage in this area. Even repeater stations are co-located in the UK, right?

Some US cities have good co-location, but quite a few do not, requiring rotators, etc.

Are rotators in use in any numbers in the UK? I would expect not if my understanding is correct.

Use of rotators require more advanced technical knowledge in the digital world and stations outside of the antenna "farms" may find themselves on the outside looking in. Simply being in the contour range may not be enough.

24 ATSC Channels, with 32 sub-channels here in the Nations Capital. Using a 91XG & YA1713 mounted 12 feet above the roof. No amplification; but use the UVSJ & HLSJ to filter out the staggering amounts of out of band interference.

75-80? Really that is crazy. It seems like there would be channel overlap. Is there like 10 different ABC affiliates?At least 6 different directions (I normally get 3 markets, but with that situation got maybe 5 or 6. I've only gotten that amount maybe a couple of times).

If by "overlap" you mean the same networks, yeah, there are quite a few of those. But they don't all show the same stuff at the same times. Just primetime on the major networks. But that's cool, because some often have better PQ than others, due mainly to their subchannel counts. I do get a lot of PBS channels too, which I like.

But just between the main 3 markets - Chicago, Milwaukee and Rockford, there are a lot of channels, as you can imagine. And lots of subchannels, too (unfortunately, for picture quality's sake - wouldn't mind if so many weren't so absolutely worthless). I'm just in a good, central location I guess, what can I say - and there are houses here which are actually much higher up and open than I am - those are thereal lucky ones. I have to go through trees for both Chicago and Milwaukee.

Believe it or not, I actually pulled in all those channels using the DTVPal. At least it's good for something, I guess. If I didn't have my signal split once, I might even do that more often. I've even gotten stations from 200 miles downstate this summer (with my CM-7000, late night/early morning).

(I am only talking about the digital channels here.)

Are these from Crystal Palace, Reigate or another site?


All from Crystal Palace, all UHF.

That channel list is the standard Freeview line-up for England (in Scotland and Wales there are a few differences, not sure about Northern Ireland)


Strong co-location seems to be even more important in the DTV world and the UK has a significant advantage in this area. Even repeater stations are co-located in the UK, right?


All of the main analogue transmitters for BBC One, Two, ITV1 and C4 are co-located (originally the BBC owned half the sites, the IBA owned half the sites and they had co-operation deals allowing the other to rent space - now they are all owned by Arqiva AIUI), with Channel Five being the odd one out (it didn't use BBC sites and had to resurrect old IBA sites, like Croydon instead of Crystal Palace), but even they are usually close if not co-located. Most major relays and repeaters are co-located as well.

All main DTT transmitters are colocated on the main (formerly BBC or IBA analogue site), and as analogue is switched off, the three PSB (Public Service Broadcasting - then 2x24Mbs SD DVB-T and 1x36Mbs HD DVB-T2) muxes (out of the six total muxes) are likely to be repeated/relayed from the sites previously used for analogue. (The commercial operators of the other three muxes have decided not to invest in the repeater/relay costs and will only be broadcast from the main transmitter sites and have reduced coverage)

We also have the advantage that all our transmissions are UHF, and because they are co-sited they are broadcast at the same power usually, and in the days of analogue the 4 main analogue services were usually grouped in a small area of the UHF band - so you could buy an optimised antenna/aerial for your location. This has caused problems in some areas where the digital OTA stuff has had to have been put "out of band" - meaning wider band aerials have been required in some regions where digital signals have been too weak on narrow band aerials.

For Crystal Palace we have :

C22 Mux 2 Digital
C23 ITV1 Analogue
C25 Mux 1 Digital
C26 BBC One Analogue
C28 Mux B Digital
C29 Mux D Digital
C30 Channel Four Analogue
C32 Mux A Digital
C33 BBC Two Analogue
C34 Mux C Digital
(All of these are in Group A - so anyone with a narrow band "Group A" aerial can get good analogue and digital reception, with no requirement for a new aerial likely)

C37 C5 Analogue
(This is in group A+B)

Analogue transmissions from CP are at 100kW, Digital transmissions at 20kW. The gaps are mainly because the Sandy Heath transmitter, which is to the North of London, carries analogue transmissions on C21,24,27,31, as does Rowridge to the South and West of London. Rowridge also has some digital services on the same channels as CP analogue (which is common in many regions - and is the reason digital is broadcast at much lower powers to avoid interference with existing analogue services)

Mux 1,B,C,D are currently 18Mbs 16QAM 2k. Mux 2 and A are currently 24Mbs 64QAM 2k (and more difficult to receive in patchy areas as a result) Post DSO (from 2009) Mux 1,2,A,C and D will all be 24Mbs 24QAM 8k, and Mux B will be 36Mbs DVB-T2 (probably 256QAM 32k) and will carry HD content in H264. Mux 1,2,B will be renamed PSB1-3, with current Mux B content shifted to muxes PSB 1 and 2, and some stuff shifted from Mux 2 to a commercial mux I believe.

The BBC developed the original 4 channel UHF channel mapping for the UK (Channel 5 is an odd additional channel created in 1997 by freeing up a couple of previously reserved channels, and re-tuning a LOT of VCRs from Channel 36, and is not available at the same coverage levels as the other 4, particularly near coastal regions where interference with other European countries can be an issue), and the success of this spectrum planning meant that a lot of other European countries asked the Beeb to assist them. The Beeb also worked hard on the nationwide 6 Mux system that has been adopted for Digital OTA.

Effectively this means that in DTT areas, you get 10 (11 if you get C5 analogue) RF channels - 4 or 5 analogue and 6 digital - nationwide - irrespective of your location.


Some US cities have good co-location, but quite a few do not, requiring rotators, etc.

Are rotators in use in any numbers in the UK?


No - they were sold by Tandy stores (aka Radio Shack when they existed over here) but were never bought in any numbers. The only reason to have a rotator would be if you lived on a border and wanted to be able to watch multiple BBC One or ITV1 regional variants from two transmitters.

(I can receive both Crystal Palace and Hannington in my location - so a rotator would allow me to watch either ITV1 London or ITV1 Meridian, and BBC One London or BBC One South - but as both variants are now carried on satellite for free, I can use the satellite feed if I chose)

Rotators are pretty much unheard of over here. They are certainly not required in a typical installation to get all the standard five analogue networks and six DTT muxes, unless you are in very "interesting" reception conditions.

I would expect not if my understanding is correct.


Indeed you are!


Use of rotators require more advanced technical knowledge in the digital world and stations outside of the antenna "farms" may find themselves on the outside looking in. Simply being in the contour range may not be enough.

In the UK the vast majority of people have a single rooftop aerial pointing at the transmitter for their region.

In previous decades, before ITV became so national, there were significant variations between regional franchises on ITV, and thus in border areas, where two transmitters could easily be received, you could see which ITV region each house was chosing to watch based on the direction the aerial was pointed.

The UK currently has analogue OTA TV coverage estimated at 98.5% of the population (in fact this may be a low estimate - I've seen estimates above 99%). The aim is for digital OTA to match this for the 3 PSB muxes, with the other 3 non-PSB muxes running at around 90.5% of the population, compared to the current 73% coverage for both. (Currently analogue is running at low power to avoid interference with existing analogue services in neighbouring regions)

OTA Digital:

ABC - WGTU
CBS - WWTV
NBC - WPBN
NBC Weather - WPBN multicast
FOX - WFQX
PBS - WCMV
Create - PBS multicast

Had CW and RTN multicasted, but contracts were not renewed.

Austin, TX (Northwest)

I will limit this to ATSC digital channels. We have a number of low power stations.

I can receive with a set top antenna:

Fox (KTBC)
PBS (KLRU) + 1 subchannel
ABC (KVUE) + 1 weather subchannel
NBC (KXAN)
CBS (KEYE) + 1 retro TV subchannel
The CW (KNVA)
Univision (KAKW) (not HD but only 480i digital)

Austin does not have Telemundo or MyNetwork TV affiliates. Telefutura and AztecaAmerica are on low powered stations only.

MSP, DTV:
PBS-7
CBS-1
ABC-2
FOX-2 (second is just SD feed of HD channel)
NBC-2
CW-2 (second is just SD feed of HD channel)
MyNetwork-2 (second is just SD feed of HD channel)
Independent-1
Ion-4

Total digital not including duplicate SD feeds-20
Analog only-10(not including religious/shopping channels, LPS)

I currently get 18 digital stations OTA reliably, mostly from 2 cities: Washington DC and Baltimore which have a lot of overlap in their broadcast coverage. I don't think we should count sub-channels because that changes and depends on how many PBS stations or SD only stations one has with multiple sub-channels. Just muddies the comparisons. My antenna setup (CM 4221 and Winegard YA-6713 upper VHF) is in the attic. I could get several more stations if my antennas were on the roof with a rotator, but the roof is way up there (3 story townhouse) and it is not worth the trouble to have the antenna installed up there.

I figure after the analog shutdown I should be able to get at least 21 stations when one returns to the air, one moves to a broadcast tower in NW DC, and a distant one goes full power on a new channel. There is a digital low power station I can not lock onto from 16 miles out, but it (WMDO-LD 8) is saddled between 2 powerful analog 7 & 9 channels and it might come in after those stations go digital on their upper VHF channel. If some maximized power applications are granted, I should be able to get several more, but those will be duplicate Maryland Public TV stations.

A follow-up question to ask is how many more stations people expect to get after the analog shutdown? There are still 100s of full power class stations operating operating at low digital power, have reduced coverage due to a side-mounted antenna, subject to interference from an analog station, or don't have a digital channel at all. On top of that, there will be quite a few digital LP stations and translators starting up next year which will increase the station count, of particular importance for those in the more remote or poor reception areas.

Here in DFW, 18 stations with 31 total subchannels. I am 40+ miles from the "antenna farm" at Cedar Hill using a CM4228 and a YA1713 in the attic. There are three other stations I can just receive with weak but stable signals if I point my antenna North but it's not worth putting my antennas outside with a rotor just for those, since they are all network affiliates and so much of the programming is the same as my own locals.

About 30 stations in Eastern NC, from Greenville/New Bern and W1lmington N.C. At night you can add the Raleigh/Durham stations which would make it over 40.

Radio Shack U-75 R with Channel Master pre-amp mounted near 30 ft. All the networks are accounted for, and many duplicates.

Just west of Charlotte, NC.
Attic mounted 4228 with 7777 preamp and CM Rotor

Digital channels with total subchannels listed.
WBTV - CBS (3 subs) HD/SD/ there was a Weather sub but it seems offline now
WCNC - NBC (2) HD/W
WLOS - ABC (3) HD/SD/piggyback 2nd SD station
WJZY - CW (2) HD/SD
WMYT - MyNT (2) HD/SD
WSPA - ABC (2) HD/W
WHNS - FOX (2) HD/W
WYCW - CW
WUNF - PBS (5) HD partial day + 4SD
WRET - PBS (3) HD + 2SD
WSOC - ABC (2) HD/W
WCCB - FOX (3) HD/ 2nd ?HD feed Spanish language (could be widescreen SD)/W
WYFF - NBC (2) HD/W
WUNG - PBS (5) HD partial day + 4SD

On a good day:
WHKY -- IND Religious
WUNE -- PBS (5) HD partial day +4 SD
WAXN -- IND

If I added a VHF antenna
WTVI -- PBS (5)

On a very rare day in winter when the weather is right and no leaves in the way with my most sensitive decoder I've picked up feeds from Columbia, SC and Winston Salem, NC. If I moved the antenna onto the roof I'd probably be able to get at least one of those cities pretty consistently. I want to say I've see a Raleigh WRAL, but maybe I'm dreaming.

There are multiple PBS channels with identical broadcasting and I could probably pick up at least 3 or 4 other separate channels with a bit of searching -- NC usually with 5 subchannels but only broadcasting HD part-time, SC PBS have 3 subchannels and seem to broadcast one HD full time.

Just west of Charlotte, NC.
WBTV - CBS (3 subs) HD/SD/ there was a Weather sub but it seems offline now

I've been watching WBTV fairly often during the past three years, and I've never seen a weather sub on it. At first they had just the HD channel, then sometime during the past year they added an SD simulcast subchannel.

WUNF - PBS (5) HD partial day + 4SD
WUNG - PBS (5) HD partial day + 4SD
WUNE -- PBS (5) HD partial day +4 SD

Two of those SD subchannels were also partial day, in rotation with the HD subchannel. On cable, all five channels ran full time.

That setup changed last Wednesday. Now they have one HD and two SD subchannels, all operating full time. Confusingly, they apparently still have the five cable channels corresponding to the old subchannels, and they were still listing them during a station break this afternoon on WUNF.

Fox (KTBC)
PBS (KLRU) + 1 subchannel
ABC (KVUE) + 1 weather subchannel
NBC (KXAN)
CBS (KEYE) + 1 retro TV subchannel
The CW (KNVA)
Univision (KAKW) (not HD but only 480i digital)

Austin does not have Telemundo or MyNetwork TV affiliates. Telefutura and AztecaAmerica are on low powered stations only.
Same here, but with a 91XG and YA-1713 since we're 60 miles from all the Austin towers. In addition to these, I can also get KXAM with a paperclip, but that just duplicates KXAN programming. I'm sure I could get KCWX (CW) out of Fredericksburg if I cared to, but I'd need a rotor and a low VHF antenna so I don't bother.

ABC: WVEC
NBC: WAVY
CBS: WTKR
FOX: WVBT
CW: WGNT
MYNetwork: WTVZ
PBS: WHRO + 2 subs
ION: WPXV + 3 subs
Ind.: WSKY (I could get this if I put an antenna on the roof, for now I don't get it)

I also get two religious channels that are analog only, I don't think they'll be around after February.

I've been watching WBTV fairly often during the past three years, and I've never seen a weather sub on it. At first they had just the HD channel, then sometime during the past year they added an SD simulcast subchannel.

You may be right since I rarely even tuned the subchannels in the last 3 years. My memory is getting somewhat fuzzy in my old age, but it may have been mid-late 2004 or early 2005 when I I'm pretty sure there were 3 subchannels including a weather channel and SD, then all of a sudden only 3-1 was active. I can find some old threads in the Charlotte OTA Local thread around page 12 to confirm this so at least I'm not totally senile. It looks like they dropped both 3-2 and 3-3 around January 2007 due to it messing up their HD broadcast and must have recently added the SD back. I'm assuming the Weather on 3-3 will eventually be added again.

My D* receiver actually lists 3-3 as a Weather channel in the information banner so I thought maybe they had reactivated it, but there's no actual programming.


The only PBS channels I have on my active menu are the HD channels so if the PBS subchannels have changed I plead more ignorance than usual. I knew there was something different about the cable feeds though I don;t think I've ever understood exactly why.

Actually, now I do remember a weather radar on WBTV's subchannel 3-2. It went away around New Year's 2006 or 2007, when the FCC began requiring stations to show "E/I" (kids' educational) programming on all subchannels, even if they just had a weather radar. WCCB kept their weather radar (which I actually look at regularly) by showing some E/I programs on Saturday or Sunday morning.

From my residence northeast of Providence, RI. I get these stations in digital:

Providence, RI/New Bedford, MA:
WLNE-DT 6.1 ABC, WLNE-NW 6.2 (simulcast of 6.1)
WJAR-DT 10.1 NBC, WJAR-WX 10.2 (NBC weather)
WPRI-HD 12.1 CBS
WLWC-HD 28.1 CW
WSBE-DT 36.1 PBS, WSBE-HD 36.2
WWDP-SD 46.1 SHOPNBC
WNAC-HD 64.1 FOX
WPXQ-HD 69.1 ION, WPXQ-HD 69.2 QUBO, WPXQ-DT 69.3 LIFE, WPXQ-DT 69.4 W

BOSTON, MA/WORCESTER, MA
WGBH-SD 2.1 PBS, WGBH-HD 2.2
WBZ-HD 4.1 CBS
WCVB-DT 5.1 ABC
WHDH-HD 7.1 NBC, WHDH-SD 7.2 NBC WEATHER
WFXT-DT 25.1 FOX
WUNI-DT 27.1 UNI
WSBK-DT 38.1 IND
WGBX-SD 44.1 PBS, WGBX-SD 44.2 WORLD, WGBX-SD 44.3 CREATE, WGBX-SD 44.4 KID
WYDN-SD 48.1 DAYSTAR
WLVI-DT 56.1 CW
WMFP-DT 62.1 SAH (SHOP AT HOME), WMFP-DT 62.2
WUTF-DT 66.1 TELEFUTURA
WPXQ-HD 68.1 ION, WPXQ-HD 68.2 QUBO, WPXQ-DT 68.3 LIFE, WPXQ-DT 68.4 W

I was wondering wondering what channels you pick up OTA in your area, and where you are located. Also what networks are they? I was wondering if people in NYC or LA get like 30+ OTA channels and what networks they are? I can look on tvfool, but I am wondering what is realistic.

I get:

ABC WJRT
NBC WEYI
CBS WNEM
FOX WSMH
CW WBSF
MYNetwork
2 different PBS stations (+ 2 sub channels) WDCP and WCMU
1 Religious network
1 extra digital subchannels

So I get 12 digital station in Midland, MI.
I live at the "shore" in south NJ and get 0 over the air.

Since nobody from central NJ (approx 33 miles from NY) have replied, let me chip in. I get 14 ATSC channels (33 including subs) using a the eagle-aspen DB2 clone indoor (unamped) with a 25ft run of RG6 split into Olevia HDTV and Hisense DB2010
2-CBS, 4-NBC, 5-FOX, 7-ABC, 9-MyNetwork, 11-CW, 25-NYC TV, 31-ION, 41-47 (Telemundo-Univision), 50-58(PBS same feed), 63-Asian Variety, 68-Telefutura

I seem to get rock solid reliable reception compared to lot of people in Brooklyn who lives a lot closer to NY (see the NY OTA local forum). It may not be just multipath, considering my apartment is surrounded by lot of trees and low rise 2 story buildings and when I built the 4-bay coat anger antenna without reflector the performance was not at par because of multipath issues. May be the ATSC signals "smoothens" and become more uniform after travelling certain distance. Any other theory here?

I seem to get rock solid reliable reception compared to lot of people in Brooklyn who lives a lot closer to NY (see the NY OTA local forum). It may not be just multipath, considering my apartment is surrounded by lot of trees and low rise 2 story buildings and when I built the 4-bay coat anger antenna without reflector the performance was not at par because of multipath issues. May be the ATSC signals "smoothens" and become more uniform after travelling certain distance. Any other theory here?The reflected/delayed mutipath signals can be just as strong as the actual signal within the first few miles. Severe multipath conditions are difficult to overcome at close range.

I live between Little Rock and Fort Smith in Arkansas. I get just about all the stations from both markets.

Fort Smith 7 channesl, 3 digital 4 analog
Little Rock 15 channels, 6 digital 9 analog

22 channels in all, not bad for free tv in the fringe:D

The reflected/delayed mutipath signals can be just as strong as the actual signal within the first few miles. Severe multipath conditions are difficult to overcome at close range.

Yep - and overload can be an issue close to a transmitter as well - so often using a Pad/attenuator to reduce the signals strength can improve things. (One early DVB-T implementation in a widespread early receiver was very sensitive to overloading)

I usually get 45 total channels (incl. subs) for the Tampa and Orlando areas from my location in Pasco County north of Tampa. Sometimes more when weather conditions permit. I use a 91-XG for UHF along with a Winegard HD5030 for VHF, 35 ft. above ground.

I usually get 45 total channels (incl. subs) for the Tampa and Orlando areas from my location in Pasco County north of Tampa. Sometimes more when weather conditions permit. I use a 91-XG for UHF along with a Winegard HD5030 for VHF, 35 ft. above ground.

Well, if we get to count "sub channels", that would bring me up to 33 channels:D.......not bad for a country boy in the deep fringe area

Not listing subs, but I get around 70 with subs.

2-1 WCBS-DT
3-1 KYW-DT (have to rotate the antenna)
4-1 WNBC-DT
5-1 WNYW-DT (not reliable)
7-1 WABC-DT
9-1 WWOR-DT
10-1 WCAU-DT (have to rotate the antenna)
11-1 WPIX-DT
25-1 WNYE-DT
29-1 WFME-DT
31-1 WPXN-DT
41-1 WXTV-DT
48-1 WRNN-DT
50-1 WNJN-DT
54-1 WTBY-DT
58-1 WNJB-DT
63-1 WMBC-DT
68-1 WFUT-DT

As far as analog goes, I get all of the NYC analogs plus WPHL, W36AZ (NJN repeater) and WASA-LD (64)

With Tropo I get everything down south plus philly, and even as far west as Binghamton (WBNG).

W36AZ wipes out WNJU-DT for me.

At this point in time with the economy in the tank & no cable TV, I'm happy to have PBS, Fox, CBS, NBC, ABC, the CW, and CBC all digital.

Like others, I have a fair ammount of overlap with the major networks. Fox44 (WFFF) shares an office with ABC22(WVNY). So the news hour is the same on both of those channels. But if I point my antenna in a different direction I can pick up 2 NH ABC affiliates and 1 ME ABC affiliate. I also get quite a bit of NBC & CBS. It seems Fox44 (WFFF) is the only Fox in the area for broadcast and they have the CW for their sub-channel. Between Fox and CW, how many hours of the simpsons & family guy can 1 person watch per day?

What does the future hold for programming & subchannels? Will we see more networks? Would it be closer to subscribe type programming that you get with cable tv or satellite tv?

Any new networks on the horizon?

I think as time passes after the digital conversion, stations will ad more sub channels; some have already over the past year or so added RTN, the Retro Television network; others I think have put CNN or headline news on a sub channel; PBS channels seem to have the most at 4 or 5 subs in most locations. There are numerous religious, weather and 24 hour news services on sub channels already. I think more programming choices will be added because the locals can accept more advertising that way; but it'll take a while especially with the present economy.

I think as time passes after the digital conversion, stations will ad more sub channels; some have already over the past year or so added RTN, the Retro Television network; others I think have put CNN or headline news on a sub channel; PBS channels seem to have the most at 4 or 5 subs in most locations. There are numerous religious, weather and 24 hour news services on sub channels already. I think more programming choices will be added because the locals can accept more advertising that way; but it'll take a while especially with the present economy.

Do any stations do clever sub-channel switching - so only run the HD channel in prime-time (when the station has HD content) but out of prime time run an SD version of the channel, and use that spare capacity for SD sub-channels?

(Over here there are a number of "time exclusive" services - where two channels on different EPG numbers on OTA air at different times of the day using the same bandwith. In the case of the BBC - they run two kids channels during the day, but these switch to BBC Three and BBC Four at 7pm - but on different channel numbers and channel names so they appear to be entirely different services.)

Do any stations do clever sub-channel switching

Until a few weeks ago, the UNC-TV stations (public television in North Carolina) did something like this. They ran five subchannels altogether: 1, 3, 4, and 5 in SD, and 2 in HD. During most of the day, subchannels 1, 3, 4, and 5 carried programming, and 2 carried a low-bitrate placeholder screen. During the evening hours (8-11 pm), subchannels 1, 2 and 3 carried programming, and 4 and 5 carried a placeholder screen. To put it another way, they switched bandwidth between subchannels 4 and 5 during the day and at night, and 2 in the evening.

Now they run three subchannels full-time. 1 is HD, and 2, 3 are SD.

Do any stations do clever sub-channel switching - so only run the HD channel in prime-time (when the station has HD content) but out of prime time run an SD version of the channel, and use that spare capacity for SD sub-channels?

This would make sense, but I have not seen any of my local stations doing this. It would have been great during the Olympics if they could have recovered the bandwidth for the main feed. It was rather annoying, knowing that the poor picture quality was partially the result of running 2 subs right along with the main HD broadcast. One of which was running old Olympic Trials!

An interesting side point is that one local station (KSCI), with an SD only main channel, manages to run 5 sub-channels, with decent quality (except for the last sub-channel). However, the channels are not in English.

I get 6 stations and 10 channels. The PBS station has been the most experimental and for a time ran programming on 4 SD sub-channels during the day ran 2 SD and an HD programs at night. Between the additional cost of the content and the confusion to the viewers, they gave up switched to a continous 1-HD/2-SD format.

Including sub channels, I get 19 DTV channels OTA. The ones below are duplicates of the major networks from different markets:

ABC-KSPR
ABC-KHOG

CBS-KOLR
CBS-KFSM

CW- KHOG-CW
CW-Ozarks CW

FOX-KSFX
FOX-KFTA

NBC-KYTV
NBC-KNWA
PBS-KOZK
PBS-KAFT

I get a multitude of full and low power analog channels (too many to count) from 4 markets, which I seldom watch.

Do any stations do clever sub-channel switching - so only run the HD channel in prime-time (when the station has HD content) but out of prime time run an SD version of the channel, and use that spare capacity for SD sub-channels?
A number of PBS stations used to do this. Some still probably do, but the trend has been to drop the daily sub-channel on/off switching. Not all ATSC tuners handled the switching very well, unless the station left all the sub-channels on, but would go blank on the various sub-channels not in active use to reallocate the bandwidth. The solution for many PBS stations has been to have a full time HD sub-channel and 3 SD sub-channels and ignore the damage that does to the HD picture quality. WETA-DT PBS 26 in Washington DC has 1 HD, 3 SD sub-channels and the HD sub-channel can look horrible with severe macro-blocking for fast moving scenes. Scenes of moving water or fires would break up into a complete mess. The HD picture quality did get somewhat better not long ago; WETA might have gotten a new encoder, don't know for sure.

But for commercial stations, there has been a growth in the amount of HD daytime programming and syndicated HD programming. More stations are upgrading to broadcasting the local news in HD as well. We are moving out of the era where you might only see true HD in the prime time and for major sporting events. So a daily switch between HD and SD is not going to be a option for most stations any longer.

What does the future hold for programming & subchannels? Will we see more networks? Would it be closer to subscribe type programming that you get with cable tv or satellite tv?

Any new networks on the horizon?
The established broadcast networks are struggling against the onslaught of cable & satellite services and broadband internet. The odds of anyone successfully starting up a new nationwide English language broadcast network except for a CW or My Network replacement if they fail to provide programming to the existing broadcast stations are pretty long. Stations might sell bandwidth to pay subscription services for SD sub-channels that you have to pay to see, but US DTV was a total failure. With more and more people getting HD TVs, there is not going to be much interest in getting a heavily compressed ESPN SD sub-channel OTA.

If you are looking for more HD OTA stations, Ion Network recently announced that they will be switching their main channel to HD (720p) in January. If you have a Ion station in range, that is. You have to figure that Univision, Telemundo, Telefutura will eventually go HD, but they have not made any statements AFAIK about official plans to do so. Those 3 networks are on low power stations in many markets and it may make business sense to wait until most or all of the LPs are digital (and for a significant percentage of their viewing audience to have HD TVs) before upgrading to HD.

... US DTV was a total failure. With more and more people getting HD TVs, there is not going to be much interest in getting a heavily compressed ESPN SD sub-channel OTA...It could be tried again, now that DTV is a lot more prevalent. USDTV may have been ahead of its time.

And an HD version of it would be possible now, with MPEG4.

Some of you guys with the ability to get multiple markets are making me jealous. (That includes arxaw and Arkyman, who participate in the Little Rock local thread.) I live in the LR 'burbs, and can only get stations from here. I count 14 digital stations including subchannels.

2.1 KETS-DT PBS (HD from 6 pm to midnight)
2.2 PBS Create (during the day)
2.3 PBS Programming-I don't really know exactly what
2.4 PBS Kids
4.1 KARK-DT NBC
7.1 KATV-DT ABC (their main tower fell in January, they are actually broadcasting as 42.3 until their new tower is done, they used to do a 7.2 news & weather channel, I guess they'll do that again when they are back up)
11.1 KTHV CBS
11.2 THV2-local news and weather
16.1 KLRT-DT Fox
25.1 KVTN-DT VTN a local religious network
38.1 KASN-DT The CW
38.2 Variety TV
42.1 KWBF-DT MyNetworkTV
42.2 KKYK-DT RTN

It was announced this week that Nexstar, which owns Ch. 4, will be buying KWBF Ch. 42 from Equity, so this line up may be changed up a bit early next year.

I get 5 physical channels all the time, two other local channels only some of the time, and another station all the time if I point my antenna at it.

1- WDBJ-DT 18
7-1 CBS-HD
7-2 MyN-SD

2- WSLS-DT 30
10-1 NBC-HD
10-2 Live Vipir Channel

3- WSET-DT 34
13-1 ABC-HD
13-2 RTN

4- WFXR-DT 17
27-1 Fox-HD
27-2 CW-SD

5- WPXR-DT 36
38-1 ION
38-2 qubo
38-3 IONLife
38-4 Worship

I usually don't receive these local stations:

6- WBRA-DT 3
15-1 PBS-HD
15-2 PBS-SD
15-3 PBS World

7- WWCW-DT 20
21-1 Fox-SD
21-2 CW-HD

If I turn the antenna, I always get:

8- WVIR-DT 32
29-1 NBC-HD
29-2 WeatherPlus
29-3 CW-SD

I do not receive this local station:

WDRL-DT 41
24-1 Independent (to be Dot2 or Religious, they announced the former, then that they were being bought by a group that does the latter)

- Trip

The list grew a bit for me and some of the signals became more reliable. The neighbor trimmed a tree next door and I did some minor rewiring. The number beside the call sign is the RF channel. Below are the subchannels. I live in zip code 48442. With this list, I don't have cable or satellite. All received with a RatShack VU90 antenna and a Winegard pre-amp.

WJBK 58 2.1 Fox Detroit
2.2
WDIV 45 4.1 NBC Detroit
4.2
WNEM 22 5.1 CBS Saginaw
5.2
5.3
WLNS 59 6.1 CBS Lansing
WXYZ 41 7.1 ABC Detroit
7.2
7.3
WILX 57 10.1 NBC Lansing
10.2
WJRT 36 12.1 ABC Flint
12.2
12.3
WDCQ 15 19.1 PBS Bad Axe, MI
19.2
19.3
19.4
WMYD 21 20.1 MY TV Detroit
20.2
WKAR 55 23.1 PBS East Lansing, MI
23.2
23.3
23.4
WEYI 30 25.1 NBC Flint
25.2
WFUM 52 28.1 PBS Flint
28.2
WPXD 33 31.1 ION Ann Arbor, MI
31.2
31.3
31.4
WADL 39 38.1 Independent, Detroit
38.2
WAQP 48 49.1 Religious, Flint
WKBD 14 50.1 CW, Detroit
WSYM 38 47.1 Fox, Lansing
47.2
WLAJ 51 53.1 ABC, Lansing
53.2
WTVS 43 56.1 PBS Detroit
56.2
56.3
WWJ 44 62.1 CBS Detroit
WSMH 16 66.1 Fox Flint

The list grew a bit for me and some of the signals became more reliable. The neighbor trimmed a tree next door and I did some minor rewiring. The number beside the call sign is the RF channel. Below are the subchannels. I live in zip code 48442. With this list, I don't have cable or satellite. All received with a RatShack VU90 antenna and a Winegard pre-amp.

WJBK 58 2.1 Fox Detroit
2.2
WDIV 45 4.1 NBC Detroit
4.2
WNEM 22 5.1 CBS Saginaw
5.2
5.3
WLNS 59 6.1 CBS Lansing
WXYZ 41 7.1 ABC Detroit
7.2
7.3
WILX 57 10.1 NBC Lansing
10.2
WJRT 36 12.1 ABC Flint
12.2
12.3
WDCQ 15 19.1 PBS Bad Axe, MI
19.2
19.3
19.4
WMYD 21 20.1 MY TV Detroit
20.2
WKAR 55 23.1 PBS East Lansing, MI
23.2
23.3
23.4
WEYI 30 25.1 NBC Flint
25.2
WFUM 52 28.1 PBS Flint
28.2
WPXD 33 31.1 ION Ann Arbor, MI
31.2
31.3
31.4
WADL 39 38.1 Independent, Detroit
38.2
WAQP 48 49.1 Religious, Flint
WKBD 14 50.1 CW, Detroit
WSYM 38 47.1 Fox, Lansing
47.2
WLAJ 51 53.1 ABC, Lansing
53.2
WTVS 43 56.1 PBS Detroit
56.2
56.3
WWJ 44 62.1 CBS Detroit
WSMH 16 66.1 Fox Flint

Holy crap. You get 3 FOX, 3 CBS, 3 NBC and 3 ABC affiliates. Is there a lot of overlap, or do they show different stuff outside of prime time? Also do they have much difference in what they show on their sub channels? I live in Midland, MI, and can't get crap compared to you, but then agian I'm renting a house, so I have the put my antenna in the attic... No roof mount for me.

Small world! I was born and raised in Midland! Lived there about 16 years... good times!

On the programming question, unfortunately there is a lot of overlap in programming on the main channels. The days of locally produced programming is over so what you see is the same all over per syndication. However, the choices do give me the opportunity to pick and choose channels depending on weather and picture quality, and avoid the 'stretch-o-vision' on WNEM and WJRT. PBS definitely has the most variety from channel to channel. Overall, the subchannels are hit or miss, but WXYZ does carry RetroTV on their subchannel (old TV programming). What bugs me is when different affiliates duplicate the main channel programming on one of their subchannels (Hello WJBK and WEYI???) Overall, I consider myself pretty lucky on the choices and reception quality. If you want, PM your questions on indoor reception. I was able to get pretty good reception with an indoor antenna.