Hi All,

I am a bit confused about the difference between NTSC vs PAL when it comes to HDTV with HDMI connectors.

I live in the US, and I have a Harmon Kardon Receiver which supports HDMI + 1080p input/output. Also, I have a Sharp LCD TV again with HDMI / 1080p support. But, both of them are NTSC.

If I take these (TV + Receiver) to Europe, and connect it to a digital PVR with tuner for satellite tv (of course it has both HD and SD channels) with HDMI output, would this setup work at all? Or, what do I need to make it work?

I have been trying to get an answer for this question for a while now, but more confused than ever about this, and would appreciate any help!

Thanks.

Hi All,

I am a bit confused about the difference between NTSC vs PAL when it comes to HDTV with HDMI connectors.



Yep - loads of people are!

First thing's first.

PAL and NTSC are standard def composite formats - not strictly relevant to HDMI.

HOWEVER - PAL is often used as shorthand for 50Hz TV, and NTSC as shorthand for 60Hz TV.

This is because Europe (France uses 50Hz SECAM, as does Russia), Australia, New Zealand and large chunks of Asia (Korea and Japan being obvious exceptions) use 50Hz PAL TV standards, and North America, Japan and Korea, use 60Hz NTSC TV standards, for standard def OTA and analogue cable.

This also means that broadcast digital TV - both standard def and HD - is also broadcast at the same frame / field rate - so in "PAL" territories (including SECAM ones) digital TV (HD and SD) is 50Hz, and in "NTSC" territories digital TV (HD and SD) is 60Hz.

(There is one notable oddity - Brazil - where 60Hz PAL is used... )

So in the US you use 480/60i, 720/60p and 1080/60i for broadcast, with 480/60p, 1080/60p and 1080/24p also used or interconnect.

In Europe we used 576/50i, 720/50p and 1080/50i for broadcast, with 576/50p, 1080/50p, 720/60p, 1080/60i, 1080/60p and 1080/24p also potentially used for interconnects.


I live in the US, and I have a Harmon Kardon Receiver which supports HDMI + 1080p input/output. Also, I have a Sharp LCD TV again with HDMI / 1080p support. But, both of them are NTSC.


Yep - that means your TV and Receiver will cope with NTSC SD composite/S-video content, and 60Hz component and HDMI content.

It does NOT mean that they will cope with 50Hz content. It doesn't guarantee they WON'T work either... However 50Hz support is not widespread in US TVs (not sure about receivers) - because 50Hz sources are rare in the US.

However - European "HD Ready" displays DO support both 50Hz and 60Hz sources (it is part of their licensing regulations) - and Blu-ray and HD-DVD releases are 24p/60i globally (with 24p output either as 24p, 60i or 60p) so 60Hz compatibility is near universal.


If I take these (TV + Receiver) to Europe, and connect it to a digital PVR with tuner for satellite tv (of course it has both HD and SD channels) with HDMI output, would this setup work at all? Or, what do I need to make it work?


It will only work if your TV will accept 50Hz SD and HD inputs via HDMI. This is by no means guaranteed.

Don't know if your receiver processes HDMI or just passes it on - if the latter then that might work with 50Hz HDMI content.

You CAN get standards converters that will convert 50Hz video to 60Hz - but if you care about quality then you will be very disappointed - and may have to use component rather than HDMI.

I wouldn't recommend trying them - the amoun you'd pay for an HD quality one will probably be more than buying a new TV in Europe (which WILL work as a monitor if you take it back to the US)


I have been trying to get an answer for this question for a while now, but more confused than ever about this, and would appreciate any help!

Thanks.

Simply - see if your display supports :

576/50i
576/50p
720/50p
1080/50i
1080/50p

You may need to ask the manufacturer - many shops (outside of specialists like B&H in NY) won't know, and annoyingly many manufacturers don't detail frame rates in their manuals (so just say 720p, 1080i, 1080p). Lack of 576i/p is a strong indicator that 50Hz isn't supported though...

I'd ask similar questions about 50Hz support for HDMI sources via your receiver - though as optical audio will support all TV broadcast sound formats, and Blu-ray is 60Hz in both territories, you may find less limitations with a 60Hz only amp.

The good news is that if you can't use your US gear in Europe, and have to buy European gear in Europe, if you move back to the US, your European gear WILL work with US HDMI, Composite, S-video and component video feeds (though won't have NTSC-M/ATSC 8VSB/QAM tuners internally - they will probably have PAL/SECAM BG/I/L/DK and DVB-T and poss DVB-S/-C support)

Also - beware that Europe uses 220-240V/50Hz AC power, and the US 110V/60Hz AC power. Many products have 90-250V/50 and 60Hz PSUs, but many don't. A step-down transformer will convert 220-250/50Hz to 110V/50Hz - but some devices don't like 110V/50Hz and want 60Hz. Conversion of 50Hz mains to 60Hz requires a more expensive converter.

^ :eek: Can somebody tell me what he said? Seriously sneals, thanks for the explanation. This is something that has always bugged me as well. I think I have a better handle on it now.

Shall I put it much more simply?!

You need to check that any US HDTV supports 50Hz SD and HD inputs (at a pinch HD only would be OK - but a bit limiting) via HDMI and/or Component (though HDMI is now standard and new satellite boxes no longer have component outputs) as European SD and HD runs at a 50Hz refresh rate, whereas US HD and SD runs at a 60Hz (59.94Hz in reality) refresh rate.

Most US HDTVs DON'T support 50Hz SD and HD inputs - meaning out of the box they aren't compatible. Most European HDTVs support both 50Hz AND 60Hz SD and HD inputs (so it is quite easy to take a European display to the US)

It IS possible to buy SD 50->60Hz standards converters to convert European TV broadcasts to display on a US TV - but they are TERRIBLE for quality viewing - and the HD ones aren't much better. (Broadcast quality models cost more than US$1000/day to rent - which gives you an idea of the processing requirements involved)

You need to see if your TV is flickervision compatible :D

At least with HDMI one won't need to have a PAL or SECAM decoder, but there may be times where a composite or SCART input is required so keep that in mind too.

Is the thread to compare the differences between spectral interleaving of the NTSC and PAL subcarriers, swinging bursts, 25hz offset and Hanover bars?

You need to see if your TV is flickervision compatible :D


;)

Though with laggy LCDs flickervision isn't an issue these days...


At least with HDMI one won't need to have a PAL or SECAM decoder, but there may be times where a composite or SCART input is required so keep that in mind too.


Yep - and for best quality European SD TV, an RGB SCART rather than Composite/S-video is a good input to have, though HD set top boxes and high-end DVD players will have HDMI these days.

I only have HDMI interconnects in my UK TV set-up these days...


Is the thread to compare the differences between spectral interleaving of the NTSC and PAL subcarriers, swinging bursts, 25hz offset and Hanover bars?

I do hope so :D

It could also include PAL-M and PAL-N, and SECAM-L as well! (AM Sound and Positive Vision Modulation anyone?)

;)Though with laggy LCDs flickervision isn't an issue these days...I've wondered if a generation that grows up with non-CRT displays would see the 50hz flicker on a CRT display. Florescent lights have flicker so maybe that would condition one not to see it in a CRT. I've noticed that since I don't look at 50hz material on a CRT on a daily basis like I used to that I notice it more now but become accustomed to it after a short time. Others here that haven't seen 50hz much are very sensitive to it and are surprised that this is "normal".

I've wondered if a generation that grows up with non-CRT displays would see the 50hz flicker on a CRT display. Florescent lights have flicker so maybe that would condition one not to see it in a CRT. I've noticed that since I don't look at 50hz material on a CRT on a daily basis like I used to that I notice it more now but become accustomed to it after a short time. Others here that haven't seen 50hz much are very sensitive to it and are surprised that this is "normal".

Interesting questions. Plasmas exhibit large area flicker though - so it is still present in many areas.

I saw some 24psf stuff displayed at 48Hz recently - and noticed it to be MUCH more flickery than 50Hz initially...

I've been living with 1080/24p Blu-ray at 3:2 on a 1080/60p display for 18 months - and still haven't got used to it. Luckily we've swapped TVs for a 24p capable model - so the 3:2 judder has gone from my life again! You can have no idea how happy I am to be free of it. Not having it on broadcast HD, but having it on pre-recorded HD has been a REAL pain. Now I can enjoy my Blu-rays (and few HD-DVDs) with normal motion again!

(It was particularly annoying for a couple of BBC 24p Blu-ray releases which I'd watched with 2:2 on BBC HD... Planet Earth in particular - which although the box describes as 1080i is 1080p for the main bits)

I've wondered if a generation that grows up with non-CRT displays would see the 50hz flicker on a CRT display.

Well, I spent 27-odd year watching nothing but 50Hz CRT (I never bought 100Hz sets, the images looked woeful compared to a proper 50Hz model), until switching to an LCD in 2006.

These days, I find flicker quite noticeable on a CRT, at first -- especially if I've seen the program on an LCD first. On the other hand, it ain't anywhere near as objectionable as 2:3 pulldown...

Steven

Funny I should see this thread. Last night my wife came home from China and had a set of DVDs of the Beijing Olympics Opening Ceremony. The DVD case said PAL. I was thinking oh oh. However it worked fine in my DVD player. Now however I am wondering if it plays at a natural frame rate.

It was widescreen but it was widescreen letterboxed in a 4x3 frame. Thus not as good a picture as an anamorphic widescreen.

Rick R

I bought a cheap DVD player with integrated LCD display AND AV input/output when I was last in the US. It converts 50Hz DVD content to 60Hz NTSC composite if required, 60Hz content to 50Hz PAL if required, or will replay 50Hz as 50Hz PAL and 60Hz as 60Hz NTSC - so you can run in a fixed TV standard or AUTO switch (if your TV accepts both)

The standards conversion is not great...

Could be :

1. Your player is converting the "PAL" discs to 60Hz
2. The discs aren't "PAL"
3. Your display accepts "PAL"

If regular anamorphic DVDs replay anamorphically on your player it sounds as if the DVDs are encoded in pre-letterboxed 4:3.

Well, I spent 27-odd year watching nothing but 50Hz CRT (I never bought 100Hz sets, the images looked woeful compared to a proper 50Hz model), until switching to an LCD in 2006.


I never saw a 100Hz CRT set I could consider watching... Dreadful - it is like the Emperor's New Clothes...


These days, I find flicker quite noticeable on a CRT, at first -- especially if I've seen the program on an LCD first.


Yep - I do - and I also notice plasma flicker.


On the other hand, it ain't anywhere near as objectionable as 2:3 pulldown...


Quite - I had to upgrade to a 24p capable display ASAP when I realised we weren't going to get 2:2 Blu-ray releases in Europe... I simply find 3:2 24p content at 60p really unpleasant to watch.

Now there are the 120hz displays with 'tweening. Many report the artifacts to be unacceptable, but that may not deter an average viewer from enjoying the smoother motion. If this catches on, could this be the beginning of the end of 24/25 fps? Electronic cameras offer in some ways a more practical approach to 50/60P than film does. International BluRay distribution already seems to be leaning to 24p and 60i so maybe this wouldn't be an issue.

Conversely I wonder if discs would be released that already have the 24P to 60P conversion, perhaps done better with higher grade equipment and manual intervention than found on a consumer display. How would directors react? Besides the OAR issue we could have this too.

Some of the newer standards converters have an option to interpolate 24p to 25p and 30p or 24/25p to 50i/p and 60i/p - creating motion that looks like it is native to the destination frame rate (and doing a pretty good job). Effectively they make "film" sources look like they were shot "video".

We've also had CRT and then LCD TVs on sale in Europe for many years that make 25p (aka 50i with a 2:2 pulldown) film and video look like 50i native interlaced video by using "Natural Motion" (Philips) processing (or "Motion Flow" as Sony call it these days) It looks pretty similar to the Trimension option that WinDVD has (or had) on a PC when replaying 24/25p sourced DVDs.

I've not seen any consumer processing that doesn't quite quickly fall to bits on fast motion or complex scenes though.

Thanks everyone for the input. And, sneals2000, appreciate the detailed explanation!

Looks like I cannot bring them as they are. But, would it be possible to buy a Receiver with support for both 50/60hz and NTSC/PAL to get around this issue?

For example, Denon AVR-2309CI and Yamaha RX-V863BL seem to support both. And, they do all kind of upscaling /conversion between various modes. Basically, is it possible to input a 1080i/50hz signal and get an output as 1080i/60hz? Or, get in PAL, and output it as 1080/60hz ?

Once again, thanks a lot for all the help.

Thanks everyone for the input. And, sneals2000, appreciate the detailed explanation!

Looks like I cannot bring them as they are. But, would it be possible to buy a Receiver with support for both 50/60hz and NTSC/PAL to get around this issue?

For example, Denon AVR-2309CI and Yamaha RX-V863BL seem to support both. And, they do all kind of upscaling /conversion between various modes. Basically, is it possible to input a 1080i/50hz signal and get an output as 1080i/60hz? Or, get in PAL, and output it as 1080/60hz ?

Once again, thanks a lot for all the help.

Anything at a consumer price point that converts 50Hz to 60Hz is likely to be lousy quality - either reducing resolution, suffering from juddery motion, or probably both. For monitoring purposes - where you need to watch stuff just to see the content - then a consumer price point converter can be useful. However for watching quality TV in quality, you can't really use them.

Converting 50 to 60Hz video is a non-trivial process, and requires a LOT of processing power, and is still not a transparent process. Broadcasters pay GBP£750-1000 per day (around $1500-$2000ish per day) to hire broadcast quality converters - and they are only just approaching transparency.

If you want decent picture quality - you really have to watch natively. 50Hz needs to be viewed in 50Hz (or possibly 100 or 200Hz - though 100/200 Hz processing is not without problems) and 60Hz needs to be viewed in 60Hz (or possibly 120/180/240Hz with the same processing caveats)

I would always recommend anyone moving from the US to Europe who wants to watch European TV to buy an "HD READY" licensed TV in Europe, as an "HD READY" TV bought over here WILL work with US TV standards (not OTA antenna fed but baseband HDMI/Composite/Component/S-video feeds will be fine)

My current Sony "HD Ready" TV will accept PAL 4.43, SECAM and NTSC 3.58 and NTSC 4.43 composite inputs (and S-video PAL and NTSC - there is no SECAM S-video), as well as HDMI and Component 1080/50i, 1080/60i, 1080/50p, 1080/60p, 1080/24p, 720/50p, 720/60p, 480/60i, 480/60p, 576/50i and 576/50p, as well as VGA inputs at various resolutions. It has a PAL BGIDK/SECAM L analogue (with both analogue Zweiton and digital NICAM audio support) and Teletext, VHF/UHF DVB-T and a CATV DVB-C tuner system with MHEG5 digital text support. (And a Conditional Access Module Slot for encrypted DVB-T/DVB-C)

(Actually the 480i and/or 576i may not be supported by HDMI - haven't checked that)

By the way - have read the manual for the AVR-23909-CI and I see no reference to frame rate conversion, just SD to HD upconversion. There seems to be no way of fixing the output frame rate - just the output resolution.

I'd expect it to take 480/60i/NTSC 60 (and the oddball PAL 60) and output that at 720/60p, 1080/60i or 1080/60p, and to take 576/50i/PAL&SECAM 50 and output that at 720/50p, 1080/50i or 1080/50p. That is what my Onkyo receiver does I believe - "PAL" in - 50Hz out, "NTSC" in 60Hz out.

Nowhere does it suggest that PAL 50 and 576/50i will be converted in frame rate to 720/60p, 1080/60i or 1080/60p.

I skim read the manual on a "PAL" search - so may have missed something, but I think I read the relevant bits.

Can't read the Yamaha manual online without registering...

Great insightful discussion...!!

I'm going to face a similar issue, moving from the US to Dubai having just bought a new Panasonic plasma. The TV does NOT operate at both 50 and 60HZ. I use my Home Theater PC to output the TV signal via HDMI and thought that I'd be able to continue this if I upgrade the PC's TV tuner card. Can anyone confirm? As an alternative I was looking to purchase a video scaler to resolve the issue....any thoughts?

Should work fine as long as the TV and PC are compatible with the electricity standard, which appears to be 220V/50Hz using a standard British 3-pin plug.

I checked the PAL DVD given to my wife again. It turns out that I tried it in my oldest DVD player where it works. In my PS3 and every other DVD player I own it does not work. I guess I better keep that oldest DVD player as a goldie.

Rick R

Shall I put it much more simply?!

You need to check that any US HDTV supports 50Hz SD and HD inputs (at a pinch HD only would be OK - but a bit limiting) via HDMI and/or Component (though HDMI is now standard and new satellite boxes no longer have component outputs) as European SD and HD runs at a 50Hz refresh rate, whereas US HD and SD runs at a 60Hz (59.94Hz in reality) refresh rate.


Sorry to pull up such an old thread.

I have a NTSC only Sony Bravia and I am using it in a country with only PAL broadcast. Right now I have a TV tuner which converts the PAL composite to VGA output which is connected to Bravia and it works fine.

I am planning to get a Home theater which has 1080p upscaling feature. Now, since I will give the receiver 576/50i input and the receiver claims that it will output in 1080/60p, does that mean that the receiver did the PAL->NTSC conversion ? Or does the receiver only upscale the 576/50i to 1080/50p ?

On a recent tour trip to China the tour had a video guy along. They allowed you to buy the DVD at the end of the tour.

When I got it home I discovered it was PAL. Again, it played on my PAL compatible DVD player. That DVD player converts the DVD to component 480p which my HDTV plays just fine of course. I thought I could take the composite or s-video out of that DVD player to convert it to NTSC. That didn't work because the DVD player output the composite and s-video as PAL when playing a PAL DVD.

Rick R