:):eek:

Don't get me wrong the RS20 looks like it will be the big dog this year, but with technology moving so fast I came to the conclusion that spending 7000 on something that uses lamps is ridiculous! LED illumination is just around the corner.
http://www.electronichouse.com/article/leds_fueling_new_lampless_projectors

How about all the benefits of DLP (High ANSI, sharp, 3D like picture, not blurring, etc.) without the problems like rainbows? People at CEDIA mentioned that the prototype Chilin LED DLP was AMAZING. It had colours that far surpassed any lamp based projector at the show, and contrast was rated at 100 000:1:eek: (Im sure it's a little exagerated)

The article also mentions SIM2 and RUNCO are getting in on LED, and Optoma as was previously announced.

Also LCD was mentioned as a possibly using LED in the near future. Sadly nothing was mentioned for LCOS.

I may be trying to convince my self that with LED just around the corner, do I really wanna spend big bucks now on something that will be obsolete in the next six months?

Today I read that article at Electronic House and had the exact same thought. I do not normally like to wait for new technologies: you'll never get anything because there's always something new on the horizon.

However in this case, the LED technology appears to be a significant breakthrough, and it may be real & available in just a few months.

Any other thoughts or insights welcome....

I'm with you.
I'm not buying another lamp projector again.
I don't care if I have to wait two more years.

Who knows, could be. My guess, though, is that at least the 2nd, and maybe 3rd gen of led will be necessary before it gets the bugs out and/or is at a competitive price. If I keep a RS20 for 3 years, I certainly won't mind upgrading then if something significantly better is out there.

Because...

I'm not gettin' any younger, life is (or may be) short and I'd like to start enjoying quality projection now.

And I'll enjoy top quality projection from an established technology while watching the bugs and growing pains get worked out in the new technology, until I'm ready to buy into it.

I know my Marantz VP-11S2 will keep me very happy untill 3rd generation LED DLP

JVC seems to have come very close this time. I will wait at least 3year for LED to work out any issues ($)and enjoy the last (for me) of that old bulb technology.:)

Color me crazy, but I don't understand the marketing about LED being capable of better colors. It seems that they can oversaturate colors all they want, but in the end, bulbs can provide all the saturation needed to adhere to the standards. Also, I don't think LED's will get us the kind of static CR's we desire. It will be nice not to have to change bulbs though.

1 No LED dlp implementatation has yet eliminated RBE. I guess it will be a while before the formatting chips get fast enough to eliminate RBE completely.
2 Static contrast for LED dlp will probably be 5000:1, perhaps less or a little bit more.
3 Calibrated light output remains to be proven in a real product.
4 Will ANSI cr be as good as with lamp illumination?

2 Static contrast for LED dlp will probably be 5000:1, perhaps less or a little bit more.

That's my biggest reason for not wanting to wait. There is no question for me at least that the RS20 represents a big enough reason to upgrade from my RS1, the bigger question for me anyway is what will spur me to upgrade from the RS20 to something else.

Because...

I'm not gettin' any younger, life is (or may be) short and I'd like to start enjoying quality projection now.

That's also a good reason for me that I forgot to mention.

who knows, could be. My guess, though, is that at least the 2nd, and maybe 3rd gen of led will be necessary before it gets the bugs out and/or is at a competitive price. If i keep a rs20 for 3 years, i certainly won't mind upgrading then if something significantly better is out there.

+1

You mean why buy any lamp projector. Title changed :)

Just the thought of a LCD LED projector is confusing me.

You know I have had the same thoughts. I do not want to buy this JVC and wish I hadn't. Will the led projectors make a show at the CES in Jan?

Why do you think we have to wait 2 or 3 generations for it to be good? LED´s have been in RPTV´s for a while and they´ve gotten very good reviews. Isn´t a FP the same thing, only needs brighter LED´s?

Why do you think we have to wait 2 or 3 generations for it to be good? LED´s have been in RPTV´s for a while and they´ve gotten very good reviews. Isn´t a FP the same thing, only needs brighter LED´s?

I want LED driven DLP for the increased contrast but that will come later. For those who would be happy with LED just for the purpose of extended lamp life you may end up the beta testers for us looking for further enhancement.

Buy a 150" Pioneer Elite Kuro and be done with it.

Buy a 150" Pioneer Elite Kuro and be done with it.

And call Mark to hang it for you:) Seriously, Mark how many buddies do you think it would take?

In a house, I think you are talking structural changes and cranes. Of course if you can pay for it, I can get the rigging crews.

Buy a 150" Pioneer Elite Kuro and be done with it.


Does Best Buy carry it? I didn't see it on their site.

I've thought about this and at this point will still probably buy the RS20. Based on past experience and what I've read I won't be surprised if Optoma completely messes up the dynamic thing by trying to push the on/off CR to a much higher multiplier from the static on/off CR than is reasonable. And I believe that I should get around 40k:1 on/off CR from the RS20 in my dark theater. So, even if Optoma delivered 8k:1 static on/off CR with a 5x or even 7x multiplier I wouldn't consider that as good as the JVC with its native. I hope they surprise me on the good side, but I'm not really expecting them to get static on/off CR up to where JVC is and if they push it to 500k:1 dynamic CR I think that could look horrible with a lot of tough transitions. We'll see. With Optoma I think there is even a chance they will do the dynamic thing mostly just for spec purposes and not even doing the dynamic gamma that should go along with it (e.g, to keep 20%stim objects at about the same level when absolute black is dimmed 4x instead of dimming 20%stim objects 4x also).

And it sounds like the RS20 can go about as far or farther for primaries as most people would want to go with current sources. It sounds like the native primaries for it are already well outside REC.709 and it has the ability to adjust them in. Going even further out doesn't sound like a feature I would pay much for, so isn't much of a reason for me to hold out for an LED DLP.

I also don't know if most of these DLP LED manufacturers will have the ability to have REC.709 primaries or close to those. If they only allow the more extreme primaries then that is more like the RS2. I trust that Planar will have good color controls and do other things right, but given that they didn't show an LED DLP at CEDIA I wouldn't really expect them to ship one this year.

If the DLP LED manufacturers want me to hold off on buying an RS20 then they need to answer the question about the kinds of native on/off CRs they will be able to get. I know that LEDs can be shut off, but irises could be closed all the way and the main reason we didn't get those huge on/off CRs with dynamic irises isn't that they couldn't close, it is that the artifacts created from doing that without enough native on/off CR to begin with would do more harm than good. So, when I hear that a company like Optoma is going to get 500k:1 on/off CR with LEDs, I am skeptical that they can actually do it in a way that does more good than harm. And when I tried to get an answer about the kinds of native or static on/off CR the LEDs would provide I didn't get anything back other than the dynamic on/off CR they claimed they could get.

I could pick out material for a tradeshow that wouldn't show the problems with too big a multiplier, but I want to know how they do with material I'll pick to see if I will notice problems.

It won't surprise me if an LED DLP I would buy doesn't show up until next summer.

--Darin

Why do you think we have to wait 2 or 3 generations for it to be good? LED´s have been in RPTV´s for a while and they´ve gotten very good reviews. Isn´t a FP the same thing, only needs brighter LED´s?

That's one reason I'm not buying into the hype of the first LED projectors yet.
The LED RPTVs were heavily hyped and pretty much every review I've seen of an LED RPTV has been "promising technology... picture quality nothing to write home about..."

Very middling reviews PQ wise for the LED RPTVS.

I saw the JVC 4K projector demo and HD750 demo (HD750 twice) at CEATEC yesterday, and I can't imagine first generation LEDs surpassing the HD750 at 1080p. My current Z3 is dying, and I'm very much looking forward to buying the new Epson or Panasonic when the new models are out, and that will definitely be "good enough" for me over the five year warranty I'll get for it.

By that time the majority of the kinks (cooling, brightness, reliability (possibly a non issue, but you never know with new technologies), etc.) of LED projectors will have been worked out, and prices will have hit a level where I'm not paying a premium for the technology.

Why do people keep mentioning that the static contrast for LED DLP would only be 5000 - 7000? How do you know this? The only 2 specs I read were Optoma saying 500 000:1 and chilin with 100 000:1. I have never heard a static number mentioned anywhere.

Also LED RPTV are only rated at 10 000:1 dynamic. If the FP can do 10x that much then they must be doing something else.

I'm going to guess that LED projectors won't have the bugs worked out and be widely available for 3 more years, especially if this economic downturn robs R & D dollars .

Why do people keep mentioning that the static contrast for LED DLP would only be 5000 - 7000? How do you know this?

Because the first generation of LED just replaces the lamp and that's the typical best case static contrast for lamp based DLP. A better question is why would the static contrast improve with an LED light source?

If they could somehow focus the LED light source onto the panel and perform some sort of local area dimming then the static contrast could go up significantly, but I don't think we'll see something like that for a long time. The chief advantage of LED based DLP (for now) won't be contrast but RBE reduction.

Sounds like a lot of conjecture going on here (imagine that). It will be interesting to see how these projectors will perform.

The biggest advantage will be to stop certain posters from bitchin about having had to replace a lamp or lamp regardless if the lamp only costs say $300. The biggest disadvantage will their posts of joy regegardimg that they don't have to replace a lamp anymore and how this plus outweighs any bugs they had to deal with and how their 16 ft wide high power is blindingly bright with constant uniformity with the machines 600 lumens.

Also LED RPTV are only rated at 10 000:1 dynamic.


Exactly. We are on our second generation of LED RPTVs. The PJ market lags behind the RPTV market. When we see RPTVs with great contrast performance, then we can hope for projectors that might do the same.

Hopefully I am wrong because dlp does things other than on/off CR very well.

I dont think it is the 300.00 tag on the new lamp verses the fact that every movie you watch the picture quality goes down and down. In reality I think on a 8,000 machine that is unacceptable. Why cant they build a lamp that is either 100 % good or blown like a lite bulb in your house. Look at it this way. I would hate to think that after 1000 hours I have to replace parts in all my speaker, Amp, Blue ray player, cables etc. 300.00 to me every 6 months after spending 30,000 is expensive. I think the engineers design this flaw to sell us lamps. The car engineers in the 70's done this with pockets to trap moisture in fenders and quarter panels.

I dont think it is the 300.00 tag on the new lamp verses the fact that every movie you watch the picture quality goes down and down. In reality I think on a 8,000 machine that is unacceptable. Why cant they build a lamp that is either 100 % good or blown like a lite bulb in your house. Look at it this way. I would hate to think that after 1000 hours I have to replace parts in all my speaker, Amp, Blue ray player, cables etc. 300.00 to me every 6 months after spending 30,000 is expensive. I think the engineers design this flaw to sell us lamps. The car engineers in the 70's done this with pockets to trap moisture in fenders and quarter panels.

Agreed. And don't forget:

1. the instant-on full-brightness attraction of a LED pj.
2. less heat and no colour wheel which should mean quieter pjs.

If they build it, we will come.

peter01
Did you get to see the 8k and 1100000:1 projector demo by JVC at CEATEC?

I dont think it is the 300.00 tag on the new lamp verses the fact that every movie you watch the picture quality goes down and down. In reality I think on a 8,000 machine that is unacceptable.

Most people look at it as a small price to pay for the luxury of having the home theater experience. $300/250 movies (figure 500 hours conservatively/2hrs/movie) is about $1/movie.

Why cant they build a lamp that is either 100 % good or blown like a lite bulb in your house.

Because lamps like that don't put out the required lumens, over the requiered spectrum.

Look at it this way. I would hate to think that after 1000 hours I have to replace parts in all my speaker, Amp, Blue ray player, cables etc. 300.00 to me every 6 months after spending 30,000 is expensive.

I'd guess most here never buy lamps, and those that do, only do so, at most once a year.

I think the engineers design this flaw to sell us lamps.

It's a limitation of the technology, not a sales gimmic.

The car engineers in the 70's done this with pockets to trap moisture in fenders and quarter panels.

Just because car manufacturers were dumb with their designs....

Look, nobody is saying it wouldn't be great to be able to not worry about lamps when you buy a PJ, that would be awesome.

What we're saying is that we'd rather pay $1/movie for a lamp, than sacrifice performance, and we're not convinced that just changing to LED will bring DLP the kind of gains in performance JVC has managed with DiLA.

If it comes down to a 50,000:1 native RS20, or a 50,000:1 dynamic, 10,000:1 Native (best case) LED, many here will go with the RS20.

I'm going with the RS20. If there were an LED projector with the same or better PQ today in the same price range would I consider it? Absolutely. If I had an RS1 or vw60 today, would I consider waiting to see what comes next year? Yes.

But there isn't, and I don't.

I've been working on my HT for a year and a half. It'll be 'good enough for government work' in about two months. I need a projector.

Am I worried that my RS20 will be 'obsolete' in six months? Absolutely not. My Pioneer Elite 610 (58" CRT HD RPTV from 2000) is not obsolete even today. It works great. Is it the best out there? No, but that is different from obsolete.

Will my RS20 be the absolutely best picture available a year from now? No, new projectors will have improved. But the RS20 will still show movies just as well as it does on day one. I'm not worried about being 'best', just about being 'great'.

-------------------

Oh, one more note: the bulb thing has always confused me. People drop $6k on a projector and then complain about bulb replacement. Just doing some math:

Assume a $6k projector that will last 4 years and have a residual value of $1k. You are therefore spending $100/month just to have the projector.

Assume you replace your bulb every 500 hours, and you watch 20 movies a month at 2 hours each: a bulb lasts about a year. If the bulb replacement costs $300, you are spending $24/month on bulb replacement.

Is it a hassle? Yes. Is it a huge deal next to the $100/month just to pay for the projector? Not to me. Just factor it in to the cost of doing business.

Also, my numbers will likely be better. I'll probably watch ~8 movies a month, plus maybe 10 hours of TV. Call it 25 hours. I'll probably only replace at 1000 hours (since I have a light controlled room and will likely start out with the iris cranked down a bit). At that point, I'm paying $7.50 a month for bulb replacement. I can live with that. It's only ~7% of the cost of my projector.

Assuming an LED projector had the same PQ and the same lumens as an RS20, it would have to be within 7% of the RS20 price to be competitive for me. If you spend several thousand more on an LED projector thinking to save money on bulb replacement, it may be a false economy, depending on your numbers.

If you use the projector 80 hours/month and need to replace the bulb every 500 hours, then the math gets very different. At that point, an LED projector would be cost effective for you even if it cost 40% more.

It really pisses me off that I have to buy gas for my car about every 250 miles of use. Then I need oil; changes and tires and wind shield wipes. And replacement head light bulbs. Piss me off. My toaster works fine for a long time. Why do I have to keep spending money on the car. It was a lot of money. The audacity of them saying I need to put in gas let alone all the other stuff.

peter01
Did you get to see the 8k and 1100000:1 projector demo by JVC at CEATEC?No, I specifically went to the HD750 demo only, and when going back to see it again with a friend that reached CEATEC, we went to the 4K because we had time to kill before the next HD750 demo. (They were all in different rooms.) There were four demos, but I didn't even pay attention to what the fourth one was, and after being somewhat underwhelmed with the 4K demo, I was happy to skill the 8K.

(Not sure if the demo was the same as CEDIA/IFA, but the first time they showed the demo for the difference in 30,000:1 and 50,000:1, I didn't really see a difference. The second time, it was there, but only once I knew what to look for in their pitch black room. I really was wowed by the HD750 though, it's hard to imagine really needing more contrast than that for a home projector.)

I figure the 1st gen LED projectors won't show the full potential of the technology and the 2nd and 3rd gen products will be a big improvement. So in 3 years time there will be some great LED based projectors on the market, but why wait that long when there are some fabulous lamp based projectors that are already very quiet and the lamps aren't that expensive.

Not only is LED coming to DLP front projection but 3D via shutter glasses also (@120Hz). Soon to be followed by auto steroscopic front projection. My last bulb projector was purchased last year.

These technologies were on the horizon last year too, I've purchased two projectors since then.

Weve been talking Laser projectors, 4th panel, 3D, and LED for years and years. We keep thinking its next year or within two years but time keeps going by.
It will all get here sooner or later after they have milked current technology.
Our kids or grand kids will benefit from our bitchen:)

It will all get here sooner or later after they have milked current technology.
LCD and LCOS are way ahead of DLP with their contrast specs, which has been DLP´s selling point. Aren´t TI at the end of their milking cycle. It looks to me to be perfect timing for LED DLP´s.

It looks to me to be perfect timing for LED DLP´s.

As far as we AVSers are concerned it was perfect timing for laser and LED years ago.
I remember when everything was 720p. Each year at cedia they showed proto 1080 projectors. Each year the rumor was its coming. Each year they kept showing more and more 1080. After 3 or 4 years of this finally one or two 1080 shipped. The following year the flood gates opened.

Buy a 150" Pioneer Elite Kuro and be done with it.

Do you mean 150" Kuro plasma? wasn't only Panasonic has the 150" plasma today?

BTW, I am new to the projector world and I almost get the 60" Kuro plasma instead of the VW60 that I got eventually. I am also very worry about the bulb life too, that's why I was very seriously consider the plasma in the first place. Well what I hate to see is I still dunno will the new replacement bulb going to last long enough too since the replacement bulb only give 30 days warranty(so to keep a spare bulb wasn't a good idea too)! And I heard most of my friends having issue on the replacement bulb which only last for 2-3 month. If they willing to give like 1 yr warranty on a bulb then I have no problem consider it as a regular operation cost.

LCD and LCOS are way ahead of DLP with their contrast specs, which has been DLP´s selling point. Aren´t TI at the end of their milking cycle. It looks to me to be perfect timing for LED DLP´s.

Actually JVCs DiLA LCOS implimentation is the only tech that's "way ahead" of DLP. Everyone else is about in the same sort of range these days. I don't think anything but DiLA has broken 10,000:1 native.

LCD and SXRD seem to be in the "contrast arms race" of who can get the highest On/Off spec using a DI, while DLP seems to avoid, or employ a much more conservative implementation.

DLP with a good, agressive DI should easilly be able to match, for example, the VW60. The VW60 (near as I can tell in a quick search) is around 5,000:1 native, good DLPs can close on 8,000:1.

But yes, DLPs obvious contrast dominance is over.

Just the thought of a LCD LED projector is confusing me.

You just use white LEDs as opposed to colored ones.

I know there is no 150" Pioneer Elite Kuro plasma yet. There may never be.

Actually JVCs DiLA LCOS implimentation is the only tech that's "way ahead" of DLP. Everyone else is about in the same sort of range these days. I don't think anything but DiLA has broken 10,000:1 native.

LCD and SXRD seem to be in the "contrast arms race" of who can get the highest On/Off spec using a DI, while DLP seems to avoid, or employ a much more conservative implementation.

DLP with a good, agressive DI should easilly be able to match, for example, the VW60. The VW60 (near as I can tell in a quick search) is around 5,000:1 native, good DLPs can close on 8,000:1.

But yes, DLPs obvious contrast dominance is over.

Take a look at the comparison's from projectorcentral.com and projectorreviews.com, these both do direct comparisons of ON/OFF contrast (as well as many other characteristics) and say that the Epson LCD is definitely in the same league as the RS1/VW60...I've never viewed these pjs side by side personally but I trust the Presenter's opinion.

Take a look at the comparison's from projectorcentral.com and projectorreviews.com, these both do direct comparisons of ON/OFF contrast (as well as many other characteristics) and say that the Epson LCD is definitely in the same league as the RS1/VW60...I've never viewed these pjs side by side personally but I trust the Presenter's opinion.

Yeah, in terms of raw On/Off I'm sure. But the Epson and Sony use DI to get there, while the RS1 doesn't. The RS1,2,10,20 are all in a class by themselves, being the only projectors that can do well over 10,000:1 static CR.

Turn off the DI on those machines and they'll fall far short of the RS* machines in CR.

Where the LCD and SXRD have made inroads is against DLP where they are finally approaching the static CR of DLP. As you noted though, LCD and SXRD makers have been far more aggressive in using DI technologies, and thus have. Only BenQ and Planar really seem to have picked up using DI in their machines and even then, not nearly as aggressively as the LCD makers especially.

"Just the thought of a LCD LED projector is confusing me."

"You just use white LEDs as opposed to colored ones."

It seems your answer is a non sequiter, but in any case that's the last thing you'd want to do.

If you used white LED's (which I think are just an RGB cluster to begin with), you'd have to break the white into R, G, and B with beam splitters, which cost money, take up space, and eat light.

Why buy a lamp driven projector when there much better things on the horizon?What's going to be much better than JVC's HD750? Based on what I saw at CEATEC, unless I'm painting my room jet black, I'm not going to get the level of performance capable with the projectors coming out this year.

My original response was basically that current tech is "good enough", but I'm wondering what can be much better at 1080p based on what I saw from the HD750. I'm sure someone out there has some ideas of what they think would be much better (other than price)...which I would be interested in hearing.

:):eek:

How about all the benefits of DLP (High ANSI, sharp, 3D like picture, not blurring, etc.) without the problems like rainbows?

1 No LED dlp implementatation has yet eliminated RBE. I guess it will be a while before the formatting chips get fast enough to eliminate RBE completely.



Just curious: For single chip dlp, does switching the light source from bulb to LED eliminate the need for a color wheel? If so, and if RBE is an artifact of the color wheel, then for those who are sensitive to RBE why wouldn't it be eliminated automatically? Or, are there other factors that can produce RBE? (I have never seen RBE on dlp projectors at showrooms [my pj is LCD] but I swear I see rainbow color breakup once in a while on my 27" CRT.)

Any enlightenment will be appreciated.
Thanks.
Mike W.

Apparently RBE is still seen on rear projection displays using the same tech.

"does switching the light source from bulb to LED eliminate the need for a color wheel?"

Yes, but not the need for sequential display of R, G, and B frames, which is the root cause of RBE.

LED's can switch quickly enough to be imperceptible, it's just a question of electronics fast enough to drive them.

DLP with color wheel is an age old technology.
The strobing effect of the color wheel is causing the rainbow effect.
Higher speed color wheels reduce the effect but as an object in the frame moves beyond a certain speed the rainbow becomes visible again.


http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/oldcolor/kinemaco.htm

On off contrast for DLP seems to be at the maximum possible. There is only so much that can be accieved by a flipping mirror. The scattering at the mirror edges limits the maximum achievable on/off contrast.

Also during the flipping the beams of light streak across the screen. Flipping is very fast but it's bound to limit the ansi contrast.

"Just the thought of a LCD LED projector is confusing me."

"You just use white LEDs as opposed to colored ones."

It seems your answer is a non sequiter, but in any case that's the last thing you'd want to do.

If you used white LED's (which I think are just an RGB cluster to begin with), you'd have to break the white into R, G, and B with beam splitters, which cost money, take up space, and eat light.

Or just use three LED panels behind each of the R, G, and B LCD panels. You can also generate white LED through other methods than combining RGB LEDs. Now, I don't know whether the efficacy is there for this to be practical yet, but it is possible.

Also during the flipping the beams of light streak across the screen. Flipping is very fast but it's bound to limit the ansi contrast.And yet the Marantz 11S2 can achieve about 1000:1 ANSI CR.

The lens is focusing the light from the chip to the screen, so this streaking effect isn't quite what some people might believe. That is, even if the light from a single mirror enters the lens at a different spot it should in theory land on the same spot on your screen. Probably depends how good the lens is, but seems to work well in reality.

--Darin

Just an opinion.

One can compare printed specifications till the cows come home. It all comes down to the picture you are watching.

There will always be a "better" projector on the horizon...... How long should one wait?

Bulbs?.... I have 1700-hours on my RS2 bulb, I am still happy with the picture. Bulbs are a consumable...... New bulb basically means you have a new projector. A $300 bulb is better than replacing a CRT tube, or three.......

IMO, the Ruby was too expensive, the RS1 was the first good step towards replacing the 9" CRT projector, but it was a step down in dynamic range. The RS2 was a definite improvement. At this point, I don't miss my Marquee.

On the surface, the RS20 looks to be a good all around choice if the CMS and grayscale tracking are good.

I might consider selling my RS2 to get a RS20, but I don't have the urge, like I did with the RS1. I also have the Radiance, so CMS is not an issue.

It really pisses me off that I have to buy gas for my car about every 250 miles of use. Then I need oil; changes and tires and wind shield wipes. And replacement head light bulbs. Piss me off. My toaster works fine for a long time. Why do I have to keep spending money on the car. It was a lot of money. The audacity of them saying I need to put in gas let alone all the other stuff.

Now you know why electric cars would result in many lost jobs... ;)

I want it all and I want it now.

Now you know why electric cars would result in many lost jobs... ;)

This is OT, but that's exactly why car dealers hate electric cars... Not enough business from service and spare parts.

I want it all and I want it now.You're not getting an Oopalooma, at least not until Q2 of next year.

I want my MTV!

"does switching the light source from bulb to LED eliminate the need for a color wheel?"

Yes, but not the need for sequential display of R, G, and B frames, which is the root cause of RBE.

LED's can switch quickly enough to be imperceptible, it's just a question of electronics fast enough to drive them.

Thanks for the clear info Noah.
Mike W.

But every movie you watch the quality slowly goes down. We can put the shuttle on the moon but cant build a bulb. Oh and those bulbs should be at the highest 50 bucks. I know Im tight. I have a 8 year old nickle and diming me to death. Oh and I just got the new Iron Man on Blue ray.

I also don't like the fact that the lamp losses it's quality over it's life. After the first few hundred hours you can lose over 20% of the brightness if not more with a crappy lamp. Then you have to adjust your settings constantly to get the picture looking "right" again. If the lamp worked at 100% it's life and then just blew, Id be much happier.

I see a lot of people mentioning that LED won't be good until the 2nd or 3rd gen ones come out. I call BS on that. Sony did a very good job with their first LCOS projectors and JVC by all accounts didn't do to bad either with their RS1;)

Also, LED is not NEW for projection. RPTV is projection BTW! The only difference is that they needed brighter LED for FP use. I think we will know a lot more in the next few months.

Why do you think TI was absent from CEDIA. They wanted to see what their competition had without blowing all their secrets. TI will most likely have their own show to highlight there tech before years end, or CES will be the launching pad for them. I think LED will be a major revolution from FP, and will most likely launch TI into the lead by a HUGE margin by next years end.

What am I gonna do? My Pearl is still good, but Im getting a major upgrade bug. I may buy the new Epson 6500 for under 3000 to hold me over, but to spend 7000 on something(rs20) I will most likely keep for less then a year would be stupid.

Oh, but I can sell the RS20 and make most of the money back! WRONG. As soon as people find out about LED tech the price of lamp based projectors will nosedive. You would be lucky to get over a 1000 for it by next years end.:eek:

You could always be right, conan48. But wasn't JVC into DILA with several generations of pj's before the RS1? (That was before my time in the HT game.)

[QUOTE=conan48;14792187]I

I see a lot of people mentioning that LED won't be good until the 2nd or 3rd gen ones come out. I call BS on that. Sony did a very good job with their first LCOS projectors and JVC by all accounts didn't do to bad either with their RS1;)

Conan: I think you are arguing apples and oranges. You would do better to look at Samsung's 81 LCD/LED flat panel, replaced by the 950. But yea, I essentially agree with your point-Samsung had/has a pretty good product, and we will soon see Sony's first LED effort in their 900 series which has LED lighting.

Also, LED is not NEW for projection. RPTV is projection BTW! The only difference is that they needed brighter LED for FP use. I think we will know a lot more in the next few months.

Agreed. It's an exciting time.

Like everything else new I expect LED to go through several generations before it hits the numbers to satisfy AVSers. The RS series will most likely outperform LED in contrast for the next few years. Expect color gamut issues, possibly rainbows flashing artifacts etc. First gen buyers always become the beta testers which those who wait it out will benefit from.
Of all the new technology weve been talking about for years on AVS it looks like LED driven DLP looks like it will become reality while everything else seams to never materialize.
So bring it on LED:)

I consider myself an "informed J6P". If JVC released projector with the same specs as the RS20 but with a laser or LED as the light source I would be all over it. I know that a lot of my friends and family would jump on it as well. Most of them, myself included, would not necessarily need anything higher than a CR of 30,000:1 so whether or not LED's or Lasers as the light source were to improve upon the CR spec is irrelevant to me (and I would imagine many others as well). Not to say that there are not other areas that can (and will) be improved upon, but I feel as if we are getting to the point of diminishing returns with these excellent projectors. I want to buy a projector that will last without the need for much maintenance or additional expenses. A light source that lasts as long as the projector is the spec that would seal the deal for me.

I see a lot of people mentioning that LED won't be good until the 2nd or 3rd gen ones come out. I call BS on that. Sony did a very good job with their first LCOS projectors and JVC by all accounts didn't do to bad either with their RS1;)

I think you're somewhat missunderstanding what people are saying, nobody's sayign LED will be bad, but many are expecting LED to be a revolution. That's not going to happen in one generation. Lamp based designs already meet the requisite color gamut, thus LEDs claim to "improved" colors just mean greater oversaturation (ala RS1/RS2) not an improvement.

Lamp based designs already do great contrast, LED's first generation isn't expected to do anything revolutionary there. Basically, what we expect to see with the first gen of LED based DLP is basically performance the same as current lamp designs, but without some of the drawbacks (lamp dimming, etc).

Oh, but I can sell the RS20 and make most of the money back! WRONG. As soon as people find out about LED tech the price of lamp based projectors will nosedive. You would be lucky to get over a 1000 for it by next years end.:eek:

I wouldn't expect to make money, but nosedive is not likely to happen. I (nor most here) expect LED alone to get DLP competitive with the RS20, at least not on the contrast front, and that's the primary reason people choose the RSx over other PJs.

Now, if (as some stories have said) the new LED light engine can hit 500,000:1 without some crazy dynamic dimming multiplier and can come anywhere close to 30,000-50,000:1 static CR, then all of us neigh sayers will eat our words and be pushing little kids out of the way to get one :D

I see a lot of people mentioning that LED won't be good until the 2nd or 3rd gen ones come out. I call BS on that. Sony did a very good job with their first LCOS projectors and JVC by all accounts didn't do to bad either with their RS1;)



The 1st Sony LCOS projector was the Qualia, it only had an on/off contrast of 1500:1 and cost around $30000?

JVC had been doing LCOS for many many years before the RS1, all expensive, low contrast and very noisy.

I'm very sensitive to DLP rainbow artifacts and now the proliferation of LED brake lights on cars is driving me nuts: they "break up" in stuttered trails in my vision as my eyes scan past the car lights. I hope LED projectors don't bring similar artifacts.

I'm very sensitive to DLP rainbow artifacts and now the proliferation of LED brake lights on cars is driving me nuts: they "break up" in stuttered trails in my vision as my eyes scan past the car lights. I hope LED projectors don't bring similar artifacts.Agreed. I haven't actually seen a DLP home theater projector (virtually all the major Japanese makers home theater projectors are LCD and LCoS) for any real period of time, but I definitely have an issue with LED brake lights. Has anyone who really notices this with LED brake lights had a chance to look at a LED RPTV? I'm wondering if there's any issues visable there.

I can spot LED tail lights like that easilly, yet don't suffer from RBE sensitivity. So I'd say that LED taillights aren't an indication of what LED powered what you'll see with LED DLP.

LED DLP projectors have a much higher standard to meet (5-6x color wheel).

Any time you are alternating colors, like single chip DLP, you have the potential for RBE. If you use colored LED and a single chip, you have the same potential for RBE. There might be a limit to the speed the mirrors can change position vs. the speed you can cycle LEDs. If this were not the case there would be color wheels with more segments or faster speeds to combat RBE. I would assume that faster mirror movement would induce heat and reliability issues.

As for contrast ratios, I would still prefer to see something a little better than the RS2. The manually adjustable aperture on the RS20, has promise to significantly improve black level performance, especially on screens smaller than 120" or so.

For the near future, it seems the limit is in the neighborhood of 30,000:1 for native CR, however the big issue is the black level with a significantly bright image and a constantly on light source (bulb, LED, Laser, etc.). I personally don"t like projectors with auto IRIS, however, the JVC at 30k:1 with a minimal iris to improve black level performance in very low APL scenes might work.

THE LEDS ARE COMING THE LEDS ARE COMING!

PROBABLY NEXT YEAR but look you do not want to be the first person to buy the first led , most likely dlp projector . What will your RS20 be worth 3 years from now Next to nothing What will your led projector be worth 4 years from now next to nothing

My records still sound better than my Cds

I'm very sensitive to DLP rainbow artifacts and now the proliferation of LED brake lights on cars is driving me nuts: they "break up" in stuttered trails in my vision as my eyes scan past the car lights. I hope LED projectors don't bring similar artifacts.

OMG!!!! :eek: I thought I was the only one that saw those irritating things. I can't stand it.

What's interesting is that I have a DLP and I only see a rainbow on rare occasions.

I think I spotted a rainbow while watching "The Wizard Of OZ" on my DLP the other night.

Any time you are alternating colors, like single chip DLP, you have the potential for RBE. If you use colored LED and a single chip, you have the same potential for RBE.

Very true.

There might be a limit to the speed the mirrors can change position vs. the speed you can cycle LEDs. If this were not the case there would be color wheels with more segments or faster speeds to combat RBE. I would assume that faster mirror movement would induce heat and reliability issues.

My best understanding of the issue, is that the limitations of current DLPs is with two things:
1) Syncing the mirror changes with the color wheel.
2) The time it takes to "transition" between one color and the next on the color wheel.

With the "near instant" on/off capabilities of LED and their electronic vs mechanical) nature, it seems expected that much higher switching frequencies should be possible because the tolerances can be much tighter in regards to the above two issues.

Like everything else new I expect LED to go through several generations before it hits the numbers to satisfy AVSers. The RS series will most likely outperform LED in contrast for the next few years. Expect color gamut issues, possibly rainbows flashing artifacts etc. First gen buyers always become the beta testers which those who wait it out will benefit from.
Of all the new technology weve been talking about for years on AVS it looks like LED driven DLP looks like it will become reality while everything else seams to never materialize.
So bring it on LED:)

I'm hoping (and waiting) for LED (or Laser) driven LCOS from JVC

I'm hoping (and waiting) for LED (or Laser) driven LCOS from JVCThe advantage of LCD is having a light source closer to "full spectrum" at a cost much less than Xenon. Laser may have an issue with achieving the proper color space. Each laser, R-G-B, may need correction filters to meet the primary color specifications.

The RS2/RS20 will probably be a good choice for the next 3-5 years for 16:9 projectors. Once/if they come out with native 2.35:1 chips, eliminating the need for a anamorphic lens, one might generate a desire for a new projector.

What is the future format for Home Theater? 4K, 2.35:1, or new technology, eliminating the front projector? With the current economy and needed recovery, we may not have a lot of "NEW" options in the near future.

Laser may have an issue with achieving the proper color space. Each laser, R-G-B, may need correction filters to meet the primary color specifications.

How would this work? Lasers have one wavelength of light. They do not produce a spectrum of wavelengths like a bulb. If a filter is applied one would simply be removing that one wavelength. Nothing would be transmitted. Of course, I am not a physicist. I could be wrong.

How would this work? Lasers have one wavelength of light. They do not produce a spectrum of wavelengths like a bulb. If a filter is applied one would simply be removing that one wavelength. Nothing would be transmitted. Of course, I am not a physicist. I could be wrong.I'm not sure either. It is single wavelength of the laser that has me concerned.

Right, the laser's wavelength is the one you get, period.

"It is single wavelength of the laser that has me concerned."

We have only three kinds of color receptors corresponding to R/G/B, with relatively wide bandwidth I believe, so exact wavelength ought not too be a big deal.

I'm hoping (and waiting) for LED (or Laser) driven LCOS from JVCAfter seeing Mitsubishi's tech demo for LaserVue at CEATEC on Tuesday, I have pretty much lost interest in laser technology. I'm pretty shocked that they're shipping the technology like it is, I didn't know what to call the effect I saw, someone else used the phrase "laser speckle". Highly disappointing, it was in any large area of one color, regardless of head movement. I completely lost interest in the technology after that and the sub-par 3D, which gave me a headache. (The Panasonic 3D demo at CEATEC did not, and the Samsung demoes at Yodobashi and Bic Camera do not.)

Here's what Jason Turk and Alan Gouger thought of the "prototype" (final product should be better) Chi lin DLP LED that was shown at Cedia:

Chilin LED DLP projector. Yes,true blacks and very high on/off. Plenty bright on a 100" grey hawk. Very dynamic image with very wide color gamut yet it did not look like the colors were over saturated. It looked very CRT.

Jason also saw this yesterday and was also very impressed. The image had a very thick look to it as if it was painted on the screen, great colors. Very close to CRT. I wish it were avail today!

It sounds pretty damn impressive to me for a prototype that should be improved before launch early next year. Chilin may not actually release the projector themselves, but sell it to other manufacturers. I especially like the comment about TRUE BLACKS from Alan. I hope he can further elaborate on that comment and maybe give us a preliminary comparison to the RS20!

Right, the laser's wavelength is the one you get, period.

"It is single wavelength of the laser that has me concerned."

We have only three kinds of color receptors corresponding to R/G/B, with relatively wide bandwidth I believe, so exact wavelength ought not too be a big deal.My concern was based on the single wavelength being the wrong color.

I am also interested on how this would compare to the JVC and when it would be available. Will it be at CES?

How would this work? Lasers have one wavelength of light. They do not produce a spectrum of wavelengths like a bulb. If a filter is applied one would simply be removing that one wavelength. Nothing would be transmitted. Of course, I am not a physicist. I could be wrong.

I'd think just like CCA/CMS on something like the RS20/W5000/etc. So long as the LEDs or Lasers create primaries beyond the required gamut, you can mix them in the projector to bring the gamut under control.

Will any of this new tech stuff be close to $3k mark when it comes out?

Will any of this new tech stuff be close to $3k mark when it comes out?Hard to say, probably not. Regardless, I don't expect it to cause any kind of paradigm shift in it's first iterations. If the technology costs significantly less, they'll probably still price competitively with existing products at first.

Why buy any projector right now when we will have 15% unemployment within a year and high end projectors will be available at fire sale prices ?

Why buy any projector right now when we will have 15% unemployment within a year and high end projectors will be available at fire sale prices ?Will they? Lower volume means higher margin per item is necessary to recoup losses. Companies like Panasonic, Epson and Sanyo certainly have other products that they could focus their monthly production capacity on if premium HT projectors aren't going to be making them money.

They aren't making hundreds of thousands of projectors this month, they'll continue to produce throughout the year. Sanyo even came out and said their monthly capacity for the Z3000 was 1,500 per month...worldwide.

Existing stock may see some markdowns if a maker realizes there has been over-production of a specific model, but expecting prices to drop if production decreases could backfire.

The slow down in sales could just postpone the development, production and release of new products. Many manufacturers will not want to gamble on weak sales of new products.

Why buy any projector right now when we will have 15% unemployment within a year and high end projectors will be available at fire sale prices ?

because next year I will be too frightened to spend the money

If someone asked me right at this moment, I would have to say I'm pretty much ok with the current state of pj technology in terms of picture quality. The improvements I want now are mostly those of convenience, such as price, bulb life, dependability, turn on quickly, etc. So while the PQ improvements promised by LED are appreciated, the returns in that area are diminishing to me. Now i just want them to iron out those other little inconveniences associated with the traditional bulb.

Why buy any projector right now when we will have 15% unemployment within a year and high end projectors will be available at fire sale prices ?

15%??? That's a frightening thought. I hope you're wrong, for all our sakes. Last months figures came out on Friday and despite the huge uptick in newly unemployed people, the % remained steady at 6.1%, and that's already as high as it has been in a long time. At 15% you're talking about an economic meltdown that we haven't seen since the '30s, that will make the 700pt DJIA drop seem like a fond memory.

The American unemployment rate remains pretty average, even if it's now up to 6.1%. By comparison, countries like Germany and France haven't had an unemployment rate that low in over a dozen years. So it's rate is pretty much in the same range as the U.K., Canada, and Australia. It could always get worse, of course, but I think a "doomsday" scenario has been averted.

But if credit would have suddenly seized up, things could have spiraled out of control in a hurry. If this bail out works, things should be fine. If not, it's gonna be a rocky ride for the world's economy.

I guess a gotta mount up and stop you yankees from crossing the border into Canada when all hell breaks lose:D

If you wait for LED then your gonna want to wait for laser. If you wait for laser then your gonnna want to wait for the the next flavor of 3D oooh aaaah. By then is should be time to start waiting for deep color. Then your not going to settle for any thing less than 4K. And I'm just not sure your 1968 B&W Magnavox is gonna last that long.

I guess a gotta mount up and stop you yankees from crossing the border into Canada when all hell breaks lose:D

Heh. Better mount up quick. I'll be in Toronto for 3 years this time next week.

I guess a gotta mount up and stop you yankees from crossing the border into Canada when all hell breaks lose:D

Put up yer dukes n try n stop me!!! Which will it be; Sarnia or Windsor, eh? ;)

I guess a gotta mount up and stop you yankees from crossing the border into Canada when all hell breaks lose:D

I am gonna wait for the river to freeze and skate across at night!

I am gonna wait for the river to freeze and skate across at night!

We will be waiting hockey sticks in hand! Since the Leafs can't play hockey anymore they've been put on border patrol, and if that fails we had are curling team ready to break some legs. As our last line of defense, we have our machine gun mounted dog sled teams ready to turn you yanks into bloody giblets. Bring it on!:D:D

i am gonna wait for the river to freeze and skate across at night!

we will be waiting hockey sticks in hand! Since the leafs can't play hockey anymore they've been put on border patrol, and if that fails we had are curling team ready to break some legs. As our last line of defense, we have our machine gun mounted dog sled teams ready to turn you yanks into bloody giblets. Bring it on!:d:d

:d

We will be waiting hockey sticks in hand! Since the Leafs can't play hockey anymore they've been put on border patrol, and if that fails we had are curling team ready to break some legs. As our last line of defense, we have our machine gun mounted dog sled teams ready to turn you yanks into bloody giblets. Bring it on!:D:D

Yea, yea...I have just two words for them that will have them dropping to their chapped knees, quickly followed by skating in the other direction in terror: RED WINGS :D

Hey, truth be told, the Canadian people are just awesome. Just got back from a tour of the Atlantic provinces and Quebec City. Closely guarded secret ? Just wonderful scenery and people. How you say...au revoir ?:D