that sound very nice.
http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=1211

seams the add a spec. optic that display with some part of the panel
the right and some part of the panel the left picture.

lets see how it works.

hope we get more infos soon.

jeremy do you know more about it?

Looks like this will be demonstrated at ShowEast. Who here is going?

Also says the adaptor is designed to work with a maximum screen size of 55 feet (4.5 ftL brightness on 2.3 gain silver screen)
That seams a little dim is that per field?

So how is it going to work?
Driving alternate columns like this
Left eye 2048x2160 for 1/120th of a second
Right eye 2048x2160 for 1/120th of second
This would result in a 2k+ 3D at 60fps. Flicker would be no worse than double shutter 24fps film.
I see how it is going to handle 60p material but how is 24p going to be done?
This would fit with the previous 4k@60p bandwidth limitation.

If the left eye frame polarization is not turned and the right eye is I guess passive glasses could be used?

no alan this 4.5 ftl is normally for 3d in cinemas.
most cinemas use this but some less than that!

i can go up to 45 ftl in 3d at my small 3d screen and it looks very very nice.

"""The new adaptor uses the full height of Sony’s 4K imaging device, with the ability to display full 2K images for the left and right eye simultaneously and in parallel, from top and bottom."""

this confirm that they 4k 3d system can do either 4k in 2d
or 2k in 3d.
no 4k in 3d is possible.

Also says the adaptor is designed to work with a maximum screen size of 55 feet (4.5 ftL brightness on 2.3 gain silver screen)
That seams a little dim is that per field?

Yep,this may be one of the reasons I have not cared for 3D in commercial cinemas.Superman returns, for example, was so dim that I could not make out detail in images.

Art

Anyone the conversion for Ftl to lumens?
Id be curious to know how many lumens 4Ftl equals.

Anyone the conversion for Ftl to lumens?
Id be curious to know how many lumens 4Ftl equals.

Assuming 55' wide 2.3 gain that's 2500 lumens.


Art

Thanks Art

I was interested in the conversion so I could compare it to the new upcoming JVC RS20 which with the iris clamped for max contrast using the specs posted from cine4home.com (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcine4home.de%2Fnews%2FJVCHD750%2FHD 750Preview.htm&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en) review seamed dim. It is a production model.
The Sony @ 2500 lumens at 55 feet wide sounds pretty good compared to JVCs 70 lumens so the Sony on a much larger screen is not so bad after all.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/screenshot_0128.jpg

seams sony maks the first big deal with 4k pr.:)

http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=1229

thats nice and if this continue it will leave pressure to ti to come with
a 4k pr. as well.

W.Mayer
No 4k in 3D I hear you.

4k is 4 times the resolution of 2k. Considering left+right divides that advantage in half do we end up with 2k+ in 3D from Sony?
I am curios if they somehow can use all the pixels in an intelligent manner.

Do we end up with 3D as
A 4k@t24-30p
B 2k@upto 60p
C 2k+@upto 60p
D Other

seams sony maks the first big deal with 4k pr.:)

http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=1229

thats nice and if this continue it will leave pressure to ti to come with
a 4k pr. as well.

You are right! This will change the tide away from 2K DLP to 4K SXRD and LCOS - until TI can catch up.

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/release/37867.html

SONY ANNOUNCES AGREEMENT WITH MUVICO ENTERTAINMENT TO INSTALL COMPLETE 4K DIGITAL CINEMA SYSTEMS


LOS ANGELES, Oct. 13, 2008 – Sony Electronics’ Digital Cinema Solutions and Services group has signed an agreement with Muvico Entertainment that will outfit its existing and new complexes with Sony’s 4K projection technology.

Muvico’s Rosemont, Ill., theater was the first theater in the United States to be fully equipped with Sony’s 4K digital projectors and, following the success of that theater, Muvico made the decision to enter into this agreement with Sony. The rollout begins this winter with the opening of Muvico’s Thousand Oaks, Calif., facility.

The agreement covers existing Muvico theaters, which will be upgraded to the digital technology, as well as new locations that Muvico builds in the future.

In addition to committing to Sony’s 4K projectors for its full conversion to digital, the exhibitor plans to use a range of Sony products in its facilities. These include LCD displays in lobby and concession areas for digital signage, menu boards and full-motion video trailers; as well as VAIO® computers, PlayStation™ gaming systems, security cameras and more.

Muvico, a leader in the theatrical exhibition industry and one of the premier circuits in the U.S., has 13 locations with a total of 248 screens.

“4K technology gives us a solid foundation for converting our chain to digital,” said Mike Whalen, president of Muvico. “It provides our guests with resolution and picture quality never before seen on the big screen.

“It also opens up so many new business opportunities for displaying alternative content in our theaters such as live concerts and sporting events,” he added. “Having access to Sony’s full product line will further improve the overall customer experience and our operations by delivering a more attractive and interactive presentation of products that are vital to the revenue stream of any theater. The fact that Sony can deliver all this for us as part of one fully integrated solution was very attractive to us.”

Sony’s DCSS group will work with Muvico on the integration, installation, maintenance and service support for this roll-out, providing the exhibitor with a complete turn-key solution for converting to digital technology.

“Muvico’s vision is that exhibitors need to offer more complete services, and they have been a pioneer in re-defining the movie-going experience,” said Mike Fidler, senior vice president of Sony’s Digital Cinema Solutions and Services group. “They’ve extended their focus far beyond the auditorium and into the lobbies, restaurants, and more, truly turning the movie theater into a digital destination.

“Working with them to further the use of 4K technology, as well as maximize Sony’s product and technology expertise, will simply elevate this experience to an entirely new level,” Fidler said.

The new Thousand Oaks location will feature Muvico’s “Premier Concept” theme, similar to their Boca Raton, Fla. and Rosemont facilities, offering such services as complimentary valet parking, reserved seating, a digital arcade and access to a full-service restaurant and bar for guests 21 years and older.

W.Mayer
No 4k in 3D I hear you.

4k is 4 times the resolution of 2k. Considering left+right divides that advantage in half do we end up with 2k+ in 3D from Sony?
I am curios if they somehow can use all the pixels in an intelligent manner.

Do we end up with 3D as
A 4k@t24-30p
B 2k@upto 60p
C 2k+@upto 60p
D Other

Yes - We finally will see 2k+ in 3D = 2k+ Reolution (2,048 x 2,160p (with an Anamorphic Lens) @ up to 60 Hz).

That's an oversampled version of conventional 2k 3D, and should look much better, and potentially brighter if the choice of projector exceeds the normal SMPTE specifications for the recommended screen size.

I personally calibrate (for 2D) to 24.5 ft-Lamberts (low) to 48.5 ft-Lamberts (high) on my Stewart 18' x 10.125' SnoMatte (0 gain!) screen (3D = 1/6 of these values, as a rule).

But . . . reality measures about c. 8,750 ft-Lamberts on peak (Fall United States Midday Daylight) white (measured from the Kodak White card side of an 18% Gray Card using the Minolta CS-2000) and this equals about 2,000,000 ANSI Lumens!

Yes - We finally will see 2k+ in 3D = 2k+ Reolution (2,048 x 2,160p (with an Anamorphic Lens) @ up to 60 Hz).

jeremy

as far as i understand the system it seams to me that sony skip a half of the
chip and do just 2x 2048x1080 at the chip.

i can be wrong as this kills 50% of the light out and this is very important for 3d
but from all the info i have it seams to be the case.

did you have furter infos that can confirm your post?

i also found out that dci hate the use of anamorph lens.
i hear the use is not allowed only tolerate in cinemas.

You are right! This will change the tide away from 2K DLP to 4K SXRD and LCOS - until TI can catch up.

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/release/37867.html

SONY ANNOUNCES AGREEMENT WITH MUVICO ENTERTAINMENT TO INSTALL COMPLETE 4K DIGITAL CINEMA SYSTEMS.

Change the tide? That's not a foregone conclusion and this Muvico deal is hardly supporting evidence. They currently have only 248 screens in 13 locations. Even if they grow 100% every year, they can't provide much of a "wave."

as far as i understand the system it seams to me that sony skip a half of the chip and do just 2x 2048x1080 at the chip.
i can be wrong as this kills 50% of the light out and this is very important for 3d but from all the info i have it seams to be the case.

What info have you received other than the press release? The information in the press release alone would not (should not) have lead you to this conclusion. Rather, it implies an over/under implementation for left-eye/right-eye (or vice-versa) that uses the entire device, very similar to the film-based systems used to show 3D in the early 80's (Jaws 3D, etc).

How is it implemented?
I assume 4096x2160@60Hz is the bandwidth limitation.
I am guessing they use every other column for left and right eye. When it is a left eye frame for 1 120th of a second 2160 columns are blacked out. How would vision integrate this strope pattern at 120Hz alternating between left and right frames at 60p.

I am in favor of better explanations or real info.

Is that a Sony press release ?

Art

Is that a Sony press release?Good question. It is - you can find it on Sony's web site here: http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/broadcast_production/release/37679.html (sorry, the link button isn't working for me).

To answer Ohlson's conjecture, I don't think left-eye and right-eye pixels are implemented in every other column. At least, that's not what I would do if I had designed it. Nor do I think there is time multiplexing going on. Let's look at the critical sentence in the press release:

"The new adaptor uses the full height of Sony’s 4K imaging device, with the ability to display full 2K images for the left and right eye simultaneously and in parallel, from top and bottom."

Note the words "full height", "simultaneously", "in parallel" and "top and bottom." The only way all of that can be true is if the right (or left) eye image occupies the top half of the device (4096 x 1080 pixels) while the other eye's image occupies the bottom half. Obviously, to do that each 2048 x 1080 frame (the image won't usually occupy all of that, the exact pixel fill dependant on the movie's aspect ratio) has to be electronically resized to 4096 pixels horizontally, which is easy. (If it was not stretched you would lose half the light before you begin and these projector's can't afford that!). Sony's 3D adapter is an opto-mechanical assembly that "attaches onto the lens mount of the projector." In this scenario, the adapter would have to provide a 2x anamorphic squeeze, give the two images different polarizations and then direct them to the same place on the screen (perhaps converging them in the adapter, but that isn't an absolute requirement given that the parallax would be small). Admittedly, this is all guesswork but entirely consistent with Sony's description. Assuming it's done right, what I have described should look great.

here is a picture of this optic.

http://bitstream.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2008/10/sony-3d-4k-in-0.html

yes lose the half of the light sound also strange to me but you never know for sure.

if i was sony i will do it half of the chip left 3d picture half of the chip right 3d picture not lose any light
as 3d was already very dim in cinemas.

btw a similar system was used at 35mm and 70mm since long long time
for 3d movies.

Very very soft low ansi cr image, looked like low res, worst 3-D at the show.

However the 4k cinema with the cinealta 4k content, hancock, batman, bond, I am legend was spectacular, truly ideal for home cinema one day. Nice contrast improvemenet, great registration sharpness, and can sit 1 foot away from screen.:D.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/screenshot_027.jpg

ansi kontrast ist schlekt

4K Sony stereo 3D (http://www.cyviz.com/cyviz/public/openIndex?ARTICLE_ID=107) backprojection solution from Cyviz (http://www.cyviz.com/cyviz/public/openIndex?ARTICLE_ID=100).


http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9295/cyvizsony2x4ksmallxh2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

CINERMAX
Did you see this 3D Sony presentation in person at SHOWEAST?

recap
1 If we are talking 60fps 3D any left or right eye frame can only be displayed for 1/120th of a second.
2 When right eye frames are shown the left eye frames must go black.
Now we have lost 50 percen in light output
The next loss comes in how polarization is handled.

So we are probably looking at 4096x1080 or 2048x2160 for each eye. I am now hoping W.Mayer has got it right. Vertical resolution is important.

Lasers are inherantly polarized to some degree. Could this polarization be switched at 120Hz to lower polarization losses with 3D?

1 If we are talking 60fps 3D any left or right eye frame can only be displayed for 1/120th of a second.
2 When right eye frames are shown the left eye frames must go black.
Uhm, no. Why do you insist this happens? The left-eye and right-eye frames come from the server in parallel. There is no need to time multiplex with this system.

ansi kontrast ist schlektJust how schlekt would you estimate it is? ;-)

Very very soft low ansi cr image, looked like low res, worst 3-D at the show.

From the Sound&Vision link above: "The device that will make 4K 3D possible is Sony’s new dual-lens adapter, which goes on sale in March of next year. The demo we saw used a prototype that is “about 20 times larger than the actual adapter will be,” according to a Sony exec, but the company promises the performance with the actual adapter will be comparable."

In light of Peter's observations from ShowEast, this doesn't sound like a good thing! I did say it could look great _if done right_.

GI Joe Sixpack
By your description 4096x1080 goes to the screen at any one time. That is half the pixels and you lose 50 percent of brightness pre polarization.
You can not have left eye frame and right eye frame on the screen at the same time.
One eye can see the entire width and length of the screen.

GI Joe Sixpack
By your description 4096x1080 goes to the screen at any one time. That is half the pixels and you lose 50 percent of brightness pre polarization.
You can not have left eye frame and right eye frame on the screen at the same time. One eye can see the entire width and length of the screen.You will lose 50% of the brightness with _any_ conceivable 3D method using a single projector. You can't break the laws of physics. Clearly you just don't get it.

You will lose 50% of the brightness with _any_ conceivable 3D method using a single projector. You can't break the laws of physics. Clearly you just don't get it.

I actually agree with that. You will lose at least 50 percent brightness with any one projector 3D implementation. That is what I wrote in my latest post above.

I actually agree with that. You will lose at least 50 percent brightness with any one projector 3D implementation. That is what I wrote in my latest post above.Great. Now let's address your claim that "You can not have left eye frame and right eye frame on the screen at the same time. One eye can see the entire width and length of the screen." You mentioned that there was once a 3D film format that put the images side by side. There were others that actually saw more use that put the images above and below each other. In either case, both images are on the screen at one time. Each, however, is projected through orthogonal polarizers. Wearing matching glasses ensures each image gets to the correct eye. No time multiplexing is necessary. Left-eye and right-eye images share the imaging device - a frame of film in this case - simultaneously, each getting half the area of the film frame. The Sony system very likely works in essentially the same way (although likely using circular polarizers instead of linear).

I hope your apparent lack of understanding is simply due to language differences. This stuff is fundamental to 3D imaging.

I just screened the in home 3-D Blue Ray "Journey To the Center of the Earth"
The movie comes with 4 pairs of red/cyan anaglyphic glasses.

You have a choice to watch the movie in 2-D or 3-D
In 3-D with the glasses you lose a lot of color but the effects are very good in spots, better then I was expecting but I had a headache within minutes. There is no way I could watch and entire movie with these glasses.

CINERMAX
Did you see this 3D Sony presentation in person at SHOWEAST?



Yes I did, not very good, very soft looking, a combination of the decreased resolution and the decreased ansi cr.

Thanks Art

I was interested in the conversion so I could compare it to the new upcoming JVC RS20 which with the iris clamped for max contrast using the specs posted from cine4home.com (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcine4home.de%2Fnews%2FJVCHD750%2FHD 750Preview.htm&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en) review seamed dim. It is a production model.
The Sony @ 2500 lumens at 55 feet wide sounds pretty good compared to JVCs 70 lumens so the Sony on a much larger screen is not so bad after all.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/screenshot_0128.jpg

Ekkehart just posted that he was given another HD750 with much better brightness performance. 400 lumens at 40k:1 iris position. He will be updating the iris vs contrast table soon.

I just screened the in home 3-D Blue Ray "Journey To the Center of the Earth"
The movie comes with 4 pairs of red/cyan anaglyphic glasses.

You have a choice to watch the movie in 2-D or 3-D
In 3-D with the glasses you lose a lot of color but the effects are very good in spots, better then I was expecting but I had a headache within minutes. There is no way I could watch and entire movie with these glasses.

I watched it as well, and didnt get a headache. Some people do, some people dont. You should try watching Polar Express in 3D with normal red/cyan glasses, that will really give you a headache.

the 3d version on bd have a big bug beside the bad color which is a
trade of to have it in 3d at a normaly bd.

about headache.

if you watch perfect 3d that contains all 3d rules you get no headache.
perfect 3d is like you see outside a window nothing more or less.

most problems comes from bad record as even top film makers often dont know
about the 70mm rules eye distance and so on.
and even if the know it the problem is simply physics.

you cant or should not project a 3d image over 3-4 m wide screens as you runn
in to much trouble as nothing at infinity should have more distance as your eye have.

so what they do is move everything to the front of you eye and that is
not good at all.

a good sample for good almost perfect 3d is the movie "U2 in 3D"
99% of the movie was very very good.
such a movie is rare but i have hope that new 3d movies are better than the old one.

atvatar in 3d from james cameron will sets end of 2009 new standarts
i am very sure.