Hey Gang,

Is the Xbox a relatively reliable console now that Falcon has been on the market now for almost a year? I really REALLY want to buy a 360 but I just can't stomach the idea of having it RRoD on me.

I have a 400 dollar gift card for Best Buy. The gamer side of me says hit the Xbox. The logical side says get the PS3 b/c it won't die on me and the games are now in the same ballpark as the 360.

Ugh, has MS fixed this issue w/ Falcon (and soon Jasper, though who the heck knows when we'll see one)?

I doubt it. I've had it happen a few times already, but you're only without the console for about 2 weeks (usually when the best game just comes out).

If you'd watch blu-rays, I'd grab a PS3. PS3 is finally catching up to the 360 in terms of games available, and has some good exclusives coming up. If you have a bunch of friends on Live and don't care about blu-ray, go with a 360.

I have both, but definitely prefer to buy my games on the 360 as I prefer that controller. But I use my PS3 just as much to watch movies on.

All about personal preference.

I doubt it. I've had it happen a few times already, but you're only without the console for about 2 weeks (usually when the best game just comes out).

If you'd watch blu-rays, I'd grab a PS3. PS3 is finally catching up to the 360 in terms of games available, and has some good exclusives coming up. If you have a bunch of friends on Live and don't care about blu-ray, go with a 360.

I have both, but definitely prefer to buy my games on the 360 as I prefer that controller. But I use my PS3 just as much to watch movies on.

All about personal preference.

'A few times'? That's ridiculous !!! Is the product truly that bad? My gosh if I bought anything that went belly up a few times, I'd never buy another one ever again. Wow. I wonder how many people would still own Xbox 360s if MS didn't do the 3 year warranty deal. I know I would not buy 2 of them, let alone 3 or 4 (plus who has that kind of money).

I would argue that PS3 still has a long way to go to even come close to the game selection of the Xbox.

Ultimately it comes down to Blu-ray and games. Do you want it to watch movies - get the PS3. Do you want it for games - then you have to look at the catalog of games for both decisions and decide which console has more titles you are interested in.

... or if you want to play pong running around the room, get a Wii... :D

I doubt it. I've had it happen a few times already

With a Falcon?

I have a launch 360 that is used a LOT! It RROD'd once, and has been fine since. For reference, my launch Wii has been sent back 3 times for drive failure, and is used about half as much.

The 360 RROD seems to be the same across the board for everyone I know. Those with launch or early units have sent in once, maybe twice if they game constantly and have it on all the time.

However, the biggest problem with the 360 seems to be lack of user prevention of the problem. RROD is caused by excess heat. If you stick the thing in an enclosed entertainment center, or near components throwing off a bunch of heat already, or even worse, block the vent ports, you will kill the unit. Do the same thing on the PS3 and see how long it lasts before it self destructs.

Right now, mine is almost always on. It streams video from my network to my TV, and with a wife and 2 kids at home all the time, they use it a lot. I don't have cable, so that is our media center.

I would argue that PS3 still has a long way to go to even come close to the game selection of the Xbox.

Ultimately it comes down to Blu-ray and games. Do you want it to watch movies - get the PS3. Do you want it for games - then you have to look at the catalog of games for both decisions and decide which console has more titles you are interested in.

... or if you want to play pong running around the room, get a Wii... :D

True, game selection belongs to the 360 for now. I'm pretty much just concentrating on releases from around now thru Xmas. Aside from Fable 2 and LBP, I think they are close (my opinion not looking to start a fight here). Granted, Fable 2 is far more interesting to me then LBP.

I've got 2. one is a original launch system its been repaired once by MS since i got it almost 2 years ago and i got it used. the other one i bought new is a falcon elite. we had it less than a year and it RROD'd. the first repair took 14 days the second took 8 days.

nothing available today compares to MS live online play IMO.

yes it sucks knowing that at anytime your console could RROD. but for me having 2 of them I'm never without.

as long as MS is continuing to repair them and have a quick turn around I'm gonna let them continue to do so. if MS decided tomorrow to stop repairing them there is a repair process that most individuals can do themselves. and it is much more reliable than MS repairs. it basically involves removing the X clamps and replacing them with screws ,nuts and washers.

OP: I have had my 175w "Pro" for about a year now, it runs cooler than the original generation. Sometimes used daily, and sometimes 2x a week; either way, not a lick of trouble. The posters who say "heat" is the main problem are correct; either keep it on top of your cabinet, or put a little PC fan inside the cabinet.

With a Falcon?

I believe so. I believe the date on the system is 10/07, which I believe is post Falcon, but I've never looked or cared really.

The first 2 times I got the RROD, MS sent me different consoles back. The most recent one about six months back, they sent me back the console I sent in.

I have my 360 in a highly ventalated area (it's open), and definitely did not use it that often when I got the RROD.

I use it a lot more frequently now (just got into Live over the past 6 months), and so far no issues.

However, the biggest problem with the 360 seems to be lack of user prevention of the problem. RROD is caused by excess heat. If you stick the thing in an enclosed entertainment center, or near components throwing off a bunch of heat already, or even worse, block the vent ports, you will kill the unit. Do the same thing on the PS3 and see how long it lasts before it self destructs.


you just keep telling yourself that. never had my 360 near other components and in open air with no vents blocked. On my 5th console now. I'm leaning more towards cheap components and poor design being the issue with the 360. And were it not for the 3 year warranty and the excellent games on the system I would have given up on the 360 long ago.

I'm sure your scenario above is the cause of some 360 failures, but the biggest problem? I doubt it given the ridiculous failure rate of the 360.

I have had my pre-falcon unit since 2006 and nary a problem. Truth is since the newer models have come out, the RROD problem has significantly decreased. Is it foolproof? No. No piece of electronics is, that being said though now is a great time to pick up a brand new unit. The prices have lowered, the technology inside has gotten better, and some great games coming out right now. I say go for it.

It would seem that there is likely a above average if not good chance that even a Falcon will RRoD at some point in time. If what I'm reading is representative of the whole.

I have a launch day system that is still working perfectly.

It is even quieter than most other systems I've heard.

For every person telling you that they have had multiple failures, there are people whose systems are fine.

I also think it has a LOT to do with poor ventilation, placement, etc.

Both systems run very warm when played for extended periods of time. Just pinged a friend yesterday and his PS3 keeps overheating and giving graphics glitches. He is sending it in for repair today. His launch 360 is still purring along trouble free. On the other hand, I've sent 3 - 360's back so far (my son's twice and mine once).

The 360 Live Experience is well worth the occasional inconvenience of being without a console for 2 weeks (once a yr) IMO. I bought a second 360 just for such occasions. It's honestly the best home entertainment value for the dollar I've ever spent... and I have ALLOT of toys! :D

Get a 360 and Enjoy!..

I've had my 360 for about a year. It gets used alot and I have not had RRoD yet. I think the newer boxes are better.

Now my co-worker has an older box and he's had to send it in a couple times.

But I agree with most that if you're asking for gaming the 360 has more games and better online as of now. If you don't have friends on live or if you want to watch blu-ray movies then go with the ps3.

Good ole' RROD threads. You gotta love or hatem.

Lets get some facts in though:


1.) Has RROD improved reliability? Absolutely. RROD was GREATLY improved with the Falcon chipset, new heatsink and motherboard redesign. Microsoft put aside a $1 Billion dollars to find and solve the problem. There is a new, smaller Jasper cpu/chipset/motherboard that will hit store shelves, anytime now that should put RROD worries away forever.

2.) Can RROD still happen with a new Falcon? Yes. But why? RROD is simply a general error code that means the 360 itself is not functioning. Which means it doesnt necessarily have to overheat.

3.) Will RROD cause you to die? Absolutely not. So stop acting like it will. Its backed by a 3 year warranty, and if it does happen to you, you will have another 360 replaced by the warranty program in 5-8 business days (depending on how close you live to Texas).

4.) If you buy a PS3.. does that mean its guaranteed not to fail. No. The PS3 has its own share of failures and only comes with a 1 year warranty.

5.) Whats the best thing you can do to protect yourself against RROD? Buy the $29-39 extended instore warranty offered by large retailers. Really with all the crying that gets carried on with RROD.. you would think most people would just pony up the $30 bucks and NEVER have to worry about it. If anything ever happens to my 360.. I'll have a brand new 360 in less than 30 minutes. How much easier could life be?

6.) Theres two types of people in this world. People who make excuses for not doing things. And people who do things. Which one are you. Reality is, its a $199 gaming console backed by a great warranty.. with can be improved by an even better in store warranty for $30 bucks. I know its a recession.. but trust me.. we all spend $200 bucks on alot more trivial shyt.. than a game console.

My opinion, buy it.. have fun with it.. stop worrying so much.

My launch box RROD. So I went into Wallyworld and swapped it out lol. Then I took that unit to ebay sold it and bought a Halo Xbox 360. Never had a problem with it yet. Its loud as hell tho,and I have one of those cooling fans on the back if that makes any diffrence.

I would argue that PS3 still has a long way to go to even come close to the game selection of the Xbox.

Ultimately it comes down to Blu-ray and games. Do you want it to watch movies - get the PS3. Do you want it for games - then you have to look at the catalog of games for both decisions and decide which console has more titles you are interested in.

... or if you want to play pong running around the room, get a Wii... :D

Good ole' RROD threads. You gotta love or hatem.

Lets get some facts in though:


1.) Has RROD improved reliability? Absolutely. RROD was GREATLY improved with the Falcon chipset, new heatsink and motherboard redesign. Microsoft put aside a $1 Billion dollars to find and solve the problem. There is a new, smaller Jasper cpu/chipset/motherboard that will hit store shelves, anytime now that should put RROD worries away forever.

2.) Can RROD still happen with a new Falcon? Yes. But why? RROD is simply a general error code that means the 360 itself is not functioning. Which means it doesnt necessarily have to overheat.

3.) Will RROD cause you to die? Absolutely not. So stop acting like it will. Its backed by a 3 year warranty, and if it does happen to you, you will have another 360 replaced by the warranty program in 5-8 business days (depending on how close you live to Texas).

4.) If you buy a PS3.. does that mean its guaranteed not to fail. No. The PS3 has its own share of failures and only comes with a 1 year warranty.

5.) Whats the best thing you can do to protect yourself against RROD? Buy the $29-39 extended instore warranty offered by large retailers. Really with all the crying that gets carried on with RROD.. you would think most people would just pony up the $30 bucks and NEVER have to worry about it. If anything ever happens to my 360.. I'll have a brand new 360 in less than 30 minutes. How much easier could life be?

6.) Theres two types of people in this world. People who make excuses for not doing things. And people who do things. Which one are you. Reality is, its a $199 gaming console backed by a great warranty.. with can be improved by an even better in store warranty for $30 bucks. I know its a recession.. but trust me.. we all spend $200 bucks on alot more trivial shyt.. than a game console.

My opinion, buy it.. have fun with it.. stop worrying so much.


Actually, according to employees at Best Buy they will not do a swap for a RRoD 360. Geek Squad fill facillitate the MS warranty work for you. If you could get a PRP from Best Buy for the 360 I'd just buy it. They WILL replace other failed consoles, but not 360s. Which says a lot I suppose. ????

Not sure about Gamestop, but I've read they will not offer 360 warranties either; not sure if anybody has verified. Not sure if Circuit City will give you a PRP, but they are in danger of going out of business anyway.

you just keep telling yourself that. never had my 360 near other components and in open air with no vents blocked. On my 5th console now. I'm leaning more towards cheap components and poor design being the issue with the 360. And were it not for the 3 year warranty and the excellent games on the system I would have given up on the 360 long ago.

I'm sure your scenario above is the cause of some 360 failures, but the biggest problem? I doubt it given the ridiculous failure rate of the 360.


Ever take the time to clean the dust out of the inner heatsinks? The system can't cool without airflow.

Since the 360 came out till now I was without a 360 for 5 weeks (when my first 360 rrod). So for me the 360 has been a decent machine. I'd consider it one of my best electronic purshases of all time. To many features and games to pass up. Do yourself a favor and get one.

I have a launch console and I saw the RROD twice just last year...never sent it in though, just let it cool down and it started right up lol. I haven't had trouble since :cool: It may be loud during game-play, but it's never really that hot. I got lucky I guess...

BTW, my 360 has always been in the open (lots of ventilation) and dust-free. It is true that for as many people complaining about RROD, there are just as many (or more) people who have been trouble free. Last time I checked, the failure rate for the 360 was about 16%.

Do yourself a favor and get an Xbox 360 ;) I think the consensus here is that, with a 3yr warranty, you don't have that much to lose.

Best Regards,
Jordan

Actually, according to employees at Best Buy they will not do a swap for a RRoD 360. Geek Squad fill facillitate the MS warranty work for you. If you could get a PRP from Best Buy for the 360 I'd just buy it. They WILL replace other failed consoles, but not 360s. Which says a lot I suppose. ????
Not sure about Gamestop, but I've read they will not offer 360 warranties either; not sure if anybody has verified. Not sure if Circuit City will give you a PRP, but they are in danger of going out of business anyway.

I love this!

So your going on employees saying this instead of asking for somthing official in writing right? Why don't you ask for the PRP and have them show you that it states that exactly how they told you. It stands for Product Replacement Plan for a reason.

In addition, I have a Dec 05 360 that still hasn't RROD and I have a replacement plan on a 2007 Halo edition 360 from Circuit City regardless if they are going out of buisness or not. I still have the 3 year warranty for RROD on the console anyway. Not a big deal. YOu have stated your fear is RROD if it happens you are covered far better than other products that are not game consoles on the market.

Ever take the time to clean the dust out of the inner heatsinks? The system can't cool without airflow.

Good Point! I wonder how often people should clean the insides? I have never even thought about it. I suppose it would partly be based on number of hours used, so I wonder if the X360 has an "odometer" in the dasjboard somewhere?

It depends on how dusty your location is. This kind of falls into the same category as your PC, which should also have the same treatment.

Personally, we live in a low dust environment(have to, I have severe dust allergies), and our only pet is a guinea pig in a cage. We do have children. We are non-smokers. So, basically, a pretty clean environment. I clean the PC's about once a month, laptops weekly, servers bi-weekly, and the game consoles monthly(Wii and 360). My 360 sits on top of the entertainment center in the open, and is usually fairly clean when I open it up(don't need to, but I'm out of warranty, so it does get cleaner).

Hell, canned air is cheap. If you are doing quick clean out, by blowing through the vents, it only takes a minute to do, so I would say monthly to be safe, more often if you have pets/smoke/etc.

Hey Gang,

Is the Xbox a relatively reliable console now that Falcon has been on the market now for almost a year? I really REALLY want to buy a 360 but I just can't stomach the idea of having it RRoD on me.

I have a 400 dollar gift card for Best Buy. The gamer side of me says hit the Xbox. The logical side says get the PS3 b/c it won't die on me and the games are now in the same ballpark as the 360.

Ugh, has MS fixed this issue w/ Falcon (and soon Jasper, though who the heck knows when we'll see one)?

The only advice I can offer is to do what your heart says. if you really want an Xbox, then get it. DESPITE the well known RRoD issues people keep buying Xboxs because of the overall strength of the console, as a premiere gaming system. Pricing is at a very good point (cheaper than a Wii), and the game library is awsome. Going forward, both consoles are going to have a great library, but the biggest advantage Xbox has is Live, and the greater numbers of people on-line menas more people to play with.

With reguards to RROD issues, yes it sucks when it happens, but the reality is that is is more of an annoyance than anything else. MS has done a remarkable job 'taking care' of those that it happens to for 3 years. So yes, you may be not able to play your Xbox for 2 weeks (total time) but if you lik what the xbox offers (from games, to services offered on live, to the controller, and most importantantly which console your friends play on) just get the xbox and start enjoying yourself.

The only advice I can offer is to do what your heart says. if you really want an Xbox, then get it. DESPITE the well known RRoD issues people keep buying Xboxs because of the overall strength of the console, as a premiere gaming system. Pricing is at a very good point (cheaper than a Wii), and the game library is awsome. Going forward, both consoles are going to have a great library, but the biggest advantage Xbox has is Live, and the greater numbers of people on-line menas more people to play with.

With reguards to RROD issues, yes it sucks when it happens, but the reality is that is is more of an annoyance than anything else. MS has done a remarkable job 'taking care' of those that it happens to for 3 years. So yes, you may be not able to play your Xbox for 2 weeks (total time) but if you lik what the xbox offers (from games, to services offered on live, to the controller, and most importantantly which console your friends play on) just get the xbox and start enjoying yourself.

My problem is I have a brand new PS3 sitting in a box - never opened. Now is my chance to return it for a BB Gift Card that I can then use to buy a Xbox. Many of the games coming out now are graphically equal (Force Unleashed, Dead Space), and I suppose maybe I should wait to see how the review take for Bioshock, Fallout 3, Saints Row 2, COD5, and Far Cry 2. But the point is, if I want to jump off the PS3 band wagon now is my time.

Here's a good report on Falcon RROD vs people spouting ********:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13169510&postcount=8865

Ok. It's been one year since the Falcon model 360 was released (technically it's missing about 10 days but it's close enough).

1 Year of Falcon Issues
1RL: 2
DOA: 4
RRoD: 7
Video: 3
Total: 16

Here's some other rough numbers for perspective.

1st Year of Tracked 360s
635 dead (no specific info, only started doing that this year)

360s Reported In November 2006
42 dead in one month (98 was highest ever)

Here's a good report on Falcon RROD vs people spouting ********:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13169510&postcount=8865

Ok. It's been one year since the Falcon model 360 was released (technically it's missing about 10 days but it's close enough).

1 Year of Falcon Issues
1RL: 2
DOA: 4
RRoD: 7
Video: 3
Total: 16

Here's some other rough numbers for perspective.

1st Year of Tracked 360s
635 dead (no specific info, only started doing that this year)

360s Reported In November 2006
42 dead in one month (98 was highest ever)


What is this from? 1 guy at a store? A chain? What do we have here?

If you're unable to make a decision by now, then it's time to flip a coin.

while i would like to know exactly where those numbers posted above came from. it really doesnt matter to me. there have been more than that posted in the RROD thread here on AVS http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=717200 but thats neither here nor there for me

to the OP. dude it sounds like you've already made up your mind. you're just on here looking for someone to change it for you by telling you that you will never have a problem with a 360. i think instead of lying to you because thats what you want to hear everyone who has posted has given you enough info for you to decide for yourself.

I got RROD a few months ago and I had my 360 in the cleanest, most dust-free, open-air environment that I can possibly have it in.
Add the fact that I am only a casual gamer.
I've actually gone MONTHS without even turning it on.
I told myself things like "Oh, these people with RROD must play their systems all day or something", "They don't know how to take care of their electronics like I do", "That will never happen to me".
The bottom line is this system has a design flaw that leads to this problem, there's just no way around it.
The newer builds reduce the likelihood of RROD, but do not completely eliminate it.
It's too bad because when functioning properly this is the best video game system I've EVER played, hands down.
This system got me back into playing again after having gone without purchasing a system for over 2 generations.
Hopefully, Microsoft gets it right on the next system (if there is a next system).

What is this from? 1 guy at a store? A chain? What do we have here?

Neogaf is one of the biggest gaming sites. That's from a pool of all the users on there. It'll show you the difference between falcon's vs others. If that's not enough for you, call Microsoft and ask?

while i would like to know exactly where those numbers posted above came from. it really doesnt matter to me. there have been more than that posted in the RROD thread here on AVS http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=717200 but thats neither here nor there for me

to the OP. dude it sounds like you've already made up your mind. you're just on here looking for someone to change it for you by telling you that you will never have a problem with a 360. i think instead of lying to you because thats what you want to hear everyone who has posted has given you enough info for you to decide for yourself.

True, I'm looking for falcon reliability close to the PS3s. Maybe that will come w/ Jasper, though Neogaf tends to say otherwise.

I got RROD a few months ago and I had my 360 in the cleanest, most dust-free, open-air environment that I can possibly have it in.
Add the fact that I am only a casual gamer.
I've actually gone MONTHS without even turning it on.
I told myself things like "Oh, these people with RROD must play their systems all day or something", "They don't know how to take care of their electronics like I do", "That will never happen to me".
The bottom line is this system has a design flaw that leads to this problem, there's just no way around it.
The newer builds reduce the likelihood of RROD, but do not completely eliminate it.
It's too bad because when functioning properly this is the best video game system I've EVER played, hands down.
This system got me back into playing again after having gone without purchasing a system for over 2 generations.
Hopefully, Microsoft gets it right on the next system (if there is a next system).

1) There is no such thing as a dust free environment in the home. The fans will pick up the particulate from anything, and the air in itself is loaded with dust. Run your PC in the same environment after a good cleaning, then open the case after 2 months of average use. The heatsinks will be filled with debris. Not trying to say you are wrong, but working in IT I can verify this. Our data center is extremly clean, no carpet, filtered climate controls, and even those machines need to be cleaned regularly.

2) You could actually just have a bad unit. What the Xbox is, is esentially a very overclocked PC packed onto one board, in a very small case. High-end lanbox pc's have this same "RROD" problem because of this.

I had a launch 360 RRoD on me after about 2 years, sent it in for repairs and then it was replaced with another unit. My replacement unit RROD'd about 9 months later. They "fixed" this unit and it has been going strong for about 3 months.

I have 3 brothers who all have 360's and each of them have experienced one RRod.

Knowing all this, if my 360 broke down tomorrow, I would go out and buy a new arcade unit. Its my favorite gaming console of all time. I have a PS3 and I use it to watch blu ray and play PS3 exclusives.

My launch box RROD. So I went into Wallyworld and swapped it out lol

Not that I'm condoning this but big box stores and Wally take back expensive open-box electronics?

Ever take the time to clean the dust out of the inner heatsinks? The system can't cool without airflow.

...can you pop the lid off the 360 without voiding the warranty? I thought that the only way to blow canned air on a 360 is through the vent areas (or I'm reading too much into the "inner" part of inner heatsinks)...

Hrm. Given a PS3 is 400 + 60 (for the warranty plan) + tax - at 6% that comes out to $487.6.

Or, you could by 1 Pro and 1 Arcade for $527.88. 40 more dollars nets you two systems. How's THAT for peace of mind?

The more I fester on this new found revelation, the more I begin to move into the MS camp. A lot of people don't like the Arcade SKU, but if you look at it like I am, I find a lot of value in it. I have 2 extra PS3 games and 1 extra Dual Shock. I'm pretty sure that will net me the 40 dollar differance. Of course, then there is Gold Live, but you can get that for $38.99 on Amazon.

The more I fester on this new found revelation, the more I begin to move into the MS camp. A lot of people don't like the Arcade SKU, but if you look at it like I am, I find a lot of value in it. I have 2 extra PS3 games and 1 extra Dual Shock. I'm pretty sure that will net me the 40 dollar differance. Of course, then there is Gold Live, but you can get that for $38.99 on Amazon.

Does anyone know if it has been confirmed one way or the other if the new arcade SKU's are eligible for the $20 refurb harddrives from MS?
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20631

That would make the arcade very hard to pass up for you...

Does anyone know if it has been confirmed one way or the other if the new arcade SKU's are eligible for the $20 refurb harddrives from MS?
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20631

That would make the arcade very hard to pass up for you...

The arcades are the reason for the program.

People that try to defend the RROD and/or blame it on users drive me nuts. I write them off as loser fanboys and pay no further heed to their posts.

Look, I love the 360 and personally haven't had an RROD yet (only had one since Oct 2007), I hated the Wii and sold it off and have no interest in the PS3.

But there's no denying that the wide spread RROD was 100% a design flaw problem. MS rushed to get it out before the PS3 and Wii and the design took a hit. No hardware should have a failure rate this high, and the fact that they had to drop $1 billion or so to extend the warranties for the problem is a straight up admission that it's a problem on their end, not wide spread user error.

Sure, it needs a lot of space, and people putting it in cabinets etc. increases the problem. But that's a design flaw in itself. Home theater components that can't go in home theater racks and cabinets are pretty ****ing useless.

It's a great console, but it's poorly designed piece of crap from a durability standpoint. It just has the best games and online system, so it's worth the risk IMO especially with the 3 year warranty.

you just keep telling yourself that. never had my 360 near other components and in open air with no vents blocked. On my 5th console now. I'm leaning more towards cheap components and poor design being the issue with the 360. And were it not for the 3 year warranty and the excellent games on the system I would have given up on the 360 long ago.

I'm sure your scenario above is the cause of some 360 failures, but the biggest problem? I doubt it given the ridiculous failure rate of the 360.

Same here, on my fourth now, all well maintained on an open self away from other components in a cool basement. Friend with much the same situation on his fourth as well. Iti s the luck of the draw. Some RROD new right out of the box.

I have 2 360's, one launch 20GB unit, and an Elite. The launch unit was RROD before the end of 2005; however, I sent the unit back under the original manufacturers warranty (before 3 year extension) and that has been my primary unit since with no issues to report since then (almost 3 years), My elite is about a year old, I purchased it second hand and it runs strong and shows none of the telltale signs of the RROD.

I also own a PS3; however, I do honestly find the better gaming experience on the 360 (Based on available titles; number of MP users, and features [don't forget NXE coming next month!]). I also agree with an earlier post that the PS3 controller is a PITA to use...it just doesn't feel right in your hand.

At this point I would say buy an arcade and get the $20 HDD from MS; you'll still have enough money left over to buy a standalone BR player this holiday season if you want BR.

I have 2 360's, one launch 20GB unit, and an Elite. The launch unit was RROD before the end of 2005; however, I sent the unit back under the original manufacturers warranty (before 3 year extension) and that has been my primary unit since with no issues to report since then (almost 3 years), My elite is about a year old, I purchased it second hand and it runs strong and shows none of the telltale signs of the RROD.

I also own a PS3; however, I do honestly find the better gaming experience on the 360 (Based on available titles; number of MP users, and features [don't forget NXE coming next month!]). I also agree with an earlier post that the PS3 controller is a PITA to use...it just doesn't feel right in your hand.

At this point I would say buy an arcade and get the $20 HDD from MS; you'll still have enough money left over to buy a standalone BR player this holiday season if you want BR.

I never bought the PS3 for its BluRay Player. Honestly, I never bought DVDs in the past so I don't see that changing w/ more expensive BluRays. Now moreso then ever since I have FIOS and the library is HUGE. If I want to sit down and watch something in HD for 1 spin, its easier to pull it down off FIOS. No, I don't get to keep it, but I don't usually re-watch things anyway.

I bought the PS3 for the reliability and the promise of superior games in the future. My PS3 is bulletproof, but the lack of time I spend in front of it is a direct reflection on the games I can select from. The Muliplats usually look better on the 360, and I think the exclusives for the PS3, save God of War 3, kinda stink (for me anyway).

Good ole' RROD threads. You gotta love or hatem.

Lets get some facts in though:

1.) Has RROD improved reliability? Absolutely. RROD was GREATLY improved with the Falcon chipset, new heatsink and motherboard redesign. Microsoft put aside a $1 Billion dollars to find and solve the problem. There is a new, smaller Jasper cpu/chipset/motherboard that will hit store shelves, anytime now that should put RROD worries away forever.


I thought you said you were listing facts.

I'm on my second 360 (didn't RROD - had other problems) and my second PS3 (got the first one at launch). My recommendation is this: No matter which system you buy, I'd be sure to get it from BBY and purchase the extended warranty. If you're only a casual gamer with an interest in Blu-Ray, you can't go wrong with the PS3. If you're looking to really get into gaming with little interest in Blu-Ray, go with the 360. Of course, I have no idea what MS's plans are in regards to a Blu-Ray attachment for the system. I find it hard to believe that they won't release an add-on for the system now that the format war is over.

I thought you said you were listing facts.

Yeah because a company spending $1 BILLION dollars to fix a problem on a $200 consumer product.. buy installing new, much smaller 65nm cpu/gpu to a new motherboard should ABSOLUTELY keep everyone worried about RROD forever.

That statement makes much more sense right Ithaca?

Right?

I find it hard to believe that they won't release an add-on for the system now that the format war is over.

All you have to do is look at marketplace and the upcoming Netflix and you will see why it isn't hard to believe BR is never coming to the 360. They don't need it. Sure it will be great for some. But MS doesn't need it and they have proven that so far.

I love this!

So your going on employees saying this instead of asking for somthing official in writing right? Why don't you ask for the PRP and have them show you that it states that exactly how they told you. It stands for Product Replacement Plan for a reason.


The information you responded to is in reference to the new Black Tie Program, not the PRP. If you have a Product Replacement Plan, your unit will be exchanged as per the legal documentation that came with the PRP.

The information you responded to is in reference to the new Black Tie Program, not the PRP. If you have a Product Replacement Plan, your unit will be exchanged as per the legal documentation that came with the PRP.

Yep that is absolutely true. However, buying a new 360 will not afford me the choice of a PRP - its Black Tie or nothing. And, if BB won't replace a RRoD, seems like a waste of 40 bucks to me.

My launch box RROD. So I went into Wallyworld and swapped it out lol. Then I took that unit to ebay sold it and bought a Halo Xbox 360. Never had a problem with it yet. Its loud as hell tho,and I have one of those cooling fans on the back if that makes any diffrence.

And this is funny why?

Yeah because a company spending $1 BILLION dollars to fix a problem on a $200 consumer product...

That's not what they're doing. They're allocating that billion to replace/repair already RRODed consoles, not to re-tool.

The information you responded to is in reference to the new Black Tie Program, not the PRP. If you have a Product Replacement Plan, your unit will be exchanged as per the legal documentation that came with the PRP.

I was responding to his post about talking to a "person" vs documentation.

Yep that is absolutely true. However, buying a new 360 will not afford me the choice of a PRP - its Black Tie or nothing. And, if BB won't replace a RRoD, seems like a waste of 40 bucks to me.

You never referenced Black Tie you referenced BB employees told you this which was the reason for my response in the first place about getting "documentation stating this"

And this is funny why?

Because I didn't BUY it from walmart....

Some people need everything explained I guess.

Because I didn't BUY it from walmart....

Some people need everything explained I guess.

You committed return fraud, and in doing so helped joined the low-life bottom-feeders that have FORCED retailers to modify their return policies. These "returns" are only screwing real customers with real problems that would have been taken care of by the retailers in the past.:mad:

BTW, your Halo edition GPU is still a 90nm regardless of board revision. Seems like I see a RRoD in the future.;) Good luck trying to get anyone to take that back, it is obvious when it was built.

i had my 13 month old elite (with additional GPU heat pipe) spaz out today. my HANA wouldn't re-scale the image & everything was green (no blue channel). i read this was the beginning of a single red light, E74 error. but i went ahead & called tech support & after being walked through 30m of Q&A he concluded i needed to send my unit in for repair... only that since it was 1 month too old - it would cost me $99.

i said no thanks.

so i cracked open my case & directed a box fan onto the naked chassis... and it worked perfectly. so what i have now done is add a ($3) fan wiring harness splitter to the mobo. the extra 40mm fan (spare part) is now directing air down onto the GPU heat sink. minus the top of the clam shell... the system is now smooth as silk.

it may be on life support - but at least it should get me through Fable II. after that i'll re-evaluate my options.

You committed return fraud, and in doing so helped joined the low-life bottom-feeders that have FORCED retailers to modify their return policies. These "returns" are only screwing real customers with real problems that would have been taken care of by the retailers in the past.:mad:

BTW, your Halo edition GPU is still a 90nm regardless of board revision. Seems like I see a RRoD in the future.;) Good luck trying to get anyone to take that back, it is obvious when it was built.

LOL if you believe the stores are on your side then you really are a ******.Let me guess you are the guy sales people make fun of because you buy the extended warranty on everything. What a sucker

I could care less what the halo edition is, all I cared about was the HDMI that the launch 360 did not have. Had the Halo edition since they launched it a year ago and still works like a dream . And honestly I could swap it out at Walmart again If I wanted too, they could care less.

Not that I'm condoning this but big box stores and Wally take back expensive open-box electronics

Wally takes back just about everything except for CD's and software thats been opened, Sometimes they don't even need a receipt.
This is nothing new everyone and there mom knows this by now.

i had my 13 month old elite (with additional GPU heat pipe) spaz out today. my HANA wouldn't re-scale the image & everything was green (no blue channel). i read this was the beginning of a single red light, E74 error. but i went ahead & called tech support & after being walked through 30m of Q&A he concluded i needed to send my unit in for repair... only that since it was 1 month too old - it would cost me $99.

i said no thanks.


Chances are it would have red ringed within a few days. My RROD started out as an E74. Too bad you voided the warranty, though. :(

I've had my Zephyr for a year now and it's been used a ton. I kept it in a cooled cabinet that ducted the exhaust out of the cabinet and fans pushed in cool air. If it fails, I was planning on picking up a Arcade Jasper when it comes out and warranty the old then sell it.

LOL if you believe the stores are on your side then you really are a ******.Let me guess you are the guy sales people make fun of because you buy the extended warranty on everything. What a sucker

I could care less what the halo edition is, all I cared about was the HDMI that the launch 360 did not have. Had the Halo edition since they launched it a year ago and still works like a dream . And honestly I could swap it out at Walmart again If I wanted too, they could care less.


Nope, I'm the guy who gets to make the judgement calls on returns. I see my ability to take care of the real customers who have problems eroded everyday because of people like you.

For the record, I work in management at a Big Box chain and I am absolutely on the side of my customers. This is with but a few caveats: I do not meet unreasonable demands, I do not give in to threats, nor do I tolerate scammers. Apparently it works well, our customers keep coming back, we are extremely profitable for the company, and we have really high customer satisfaction numbers. All that, and when people come in to scam they usually get sent home with the same crap they tried to bring in and return

So next time you want to make some uneducated, completely off-base remarks......well, don't.

Nope, I'm the guy who gets to make the judgement calls on returns. I see my ability to take care of the real customers who have problems eroded everyday because of people like you.

For the record, I work in management at a Big Box chain and I am absolutely on the side of my customers. This is with but a few caveats: I do not meet unreasonable demands, I do not give in to threats, nor do I tolerate scammers. Apparently it works well, our customers keep coming back, we are extremely profitable for the company, and we have really high customer satisfaction numbers. All that, and when people come in to scam they usually get sent home with the same crap they tried to bring in and return

So next time you want to make some uneducated, completely off-base remarks......well, don't.


Heres an idea, instead of wineing about the injustices of the world. Get an education ,and be the one that writes the policies for your company instead of some worthless peon working for a big box company that won't hesitate to fire you in a hearbeat as soon as you deny the wrong person.

Hrm. Given a PS3 is 400 + 60 (for the warranty plan) + tax - at 6% that comes out to $487.6.


Spending $60 on a warranty plan for the PS3 is a poor investment. Considering that Sony charges $150 for out of warranty repairs, the warranty would be a wise investment only if the PS3 had a greater than 40% failure rate. It is definitely far lower than that, so you would be much better off saving $60 on the warranty and spending $424 total.

Heres an idea, instead of wineing about the injustices of the world. Get an education....snip

The guy with bad grammar who doesn't know how to spell is telling others to get an education. Classic...

The guy with bad grammar who doesn't know how to spell is telling others to get an education. Classic...

pwnt

Wally takes back just about everything except for CD's and software thats been opened, Sometimes they don't even need a receipt.This is nothing new everyone and there mom knows this by now.

No no I know that they did this in the past, or so I thought. For some reason I thought that a year or 2 ago they switched things up to prevent such things being done. Honestly I don't know why people are ripping you so hard. Its not like everybody else in the world hasn't done something like this before...

edit: its "their" mom not "there" mom

You know what? All banter aside, I'm just going to keep my PS3 and get a Xbox once Jasper finally shows up. Since this was my thread starting out as a Reliability thread, I'll leave my reasoning as it is out of scope. However, I'm not completely sold on Falcon having 'everything' corrected - might as well take my chance w/ MS's latest/greatest.

However, the biggest problem with the 360 seems to be lack of user prevention of the problem. RROD is caused by excess heat. If you stick the thing in an enclosed entertainment center, or near components throwing off a bunch of heat already, or even worse, block the vent ports, you will kill the unit. Do the same thing on the PS3 and see how long it lasts before it self destructs.

I used to think this too, until mine went after sitting on the top shelf of an open StudioTech rack. One day, it just stopped working correctly, with lockups, freezes, etc.

It could be that, overall, heat and neglect is a main cause, but I find that a poor excuse.

That's not what they're doing. They're allocating that billion to replace/repair already RRODed consoles, not to re-tool.

Wrong.

ALL information I read was that $1 billion was the investigate/repair/replace and most importantly FIX the RROD problem. To include the redesign of console internals, cooling solutions, cpu/gpu/motherboard changes.

Please show me proof if you have found information that shows different.

I purchased an Elite like 2 months ago, and got RROD'd last week. It went away by itself, but yeah... I don't trust any 360 when it comes to reliability.

Spending $60 on a warranty plan for the PS3 is a poor investment. Considering that Sony charges $150 for out of warranty repairs, the warranty would be a wise investment only if the PS3 had a greater than 40% failure rate. It is definitely far lower than that, so you would be much better off saving $60 on the warranty and spending $424 total.

Thats the silliest thing I've heard.

So if the PS3 had a 39% failure rate.. it would be okay NOT to purchase the PRP warranty plan.. lol

The warranty plan is insurance. It is in case shyt happens. It is for peace of mind and convience in case shyt does happen. Unless there is an absolute ZERO chance of shyt NEVER happening. Theres no reason to ever consider a PRP a "poor investment".

And that goes for any CE device. I purposely shop at Costco/Sam's Club for the 'free' PRP plan on all my CE devices. Any CE device is capable of malfunctioning sooner or later down the line.

Thats the silliest thing I've heard.

So if the PS3 had a 39% failure rate.. it would be okay NOT to purchase the PRP warranty plan.. lol

The warranty plan is insurance. It is in case shyt happens. It is for peace of mind and convience in case shyt does happen. Unless there is an absolute ZERO chance of shyt NEVER happening. Theres no reason to ever consider a PRP a "poor investment".

And that goes for any CE device. I purposely shop at Costco/Sam's Club for the 'free' PRP plan on all my CE devices. Any CE device is capable of malfunctioning sooner or later down the line.

I'm sorry, but your reasoning is completely illogical. I understand insuring against catastrophic medical costs, but against a video game system failure? In most cases, extended warranties are a very poor investment for consumers. Many retailers push extended warranties very hard because they are very profitable for the retailers.

Since you completely missed the reasoning in my previous post, I will include more details in the following example. If we assume the PS3 has a failure rate of 10%, which is probably on the high side, the expected value of the $60 extended warranty is the following: 0.1*(150-90) + 0.9*(-60) = -48.
The expected value of the warranty is -$48 when a 10% failure rate is assumed; if the failure rate is even lower, then the warranty is an even poorer investment.

Wrong.

ALL information I read was that $1 billion was the investigate/repair/replace and most importantly FIX the RROD problem. To include the redesign of console internals, cooling solutions, cpu/gpu/motherboard changes.

Please show me proof if you have found information that shows different.

Here is your proof:

MICROSOFT on Thursday revealed that it would take a charge against profits of more than $US1 billion ($1.2 billion) as it tried to limit the potential damage to its videogames business from a technical flaw in the Xbox 360 games console.

The estimated pre-tax charge of between $US1.05 billion-$US1.15 billion would cover extended warranties for 11.6 million machines that have already been sold, as well as nearly 2 million more that have been made but not yet sold, the company said.

Full article: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,22029404-36375,00.html

MS did state in this article that it believed that the problem had been solved, but the $1.2 billion was set aside to cover the extended warranty expenses, not to redesign the system.

I'm sorry, but your reasoning is completely illogical. I understand insuring against catastrophic medical costs, but against a video game system failure? In most cases, extended warranties are a very poor investment for consumers. Many retailers push extended warranties very hard because they are very profitable for the retailers.

Since you completely missed the reasoning in my previous post, I will include more details in the following example. If we assume the PS3 has a failure rate of 10%, which is probably on the high side, the expected value of the $60 extended warranty is the following: 0.1*(150-90) + 0.9*(-60) = -48.
The expected value of the warranty is -$48 when a 10% failure rate is assumed; if the failure rate is even lower, then the warranty is an even poorer investment.

So if my PS3 breaks 6 months from now.. and I didnt buy the warranty because I listened to JD23, the internet guy, who said it was a poor investment. Then what?

Youre doing entirely too much math dude. Any type of extra warranty is about comfort and security to the consumer. You cannot weigh it in simple mathmatic terms. Its simply insurance "in case shyt happens", because you cannot predict when and if a specific CE device will fail. No matter what the history.

I suppose you view someone who has never experienced a car accident.. but still pays car insurance as making a poor investment too.

Here is your proof:

MICROSOFT on Thursday revealed that it would take a charge against profits of more than $US1 billion ($1.2 billion) as it tried to limit the potential damage to its videogames business from a technical flaw in the Xbox 360 games console.

The estimated pre-tax charge of between $US1.05 billion-$US1.15 billion would cover extended warranties for 11.6 million machines that have already been sold, as well as nearly 2 million more that have been made but not yet sold, the company said.

Full article: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,22029404-36375,00.html

MS did state in this article that it believed that the problem had been solved, but the $1.2 billion was set aside to cover the extended warranty expenses, not to redesign the system.


So lemme ask you this. If the $1.2 billion didnt involving FIXING the problem.. only COVERING warranty replacments...

Wouldnt Microsoft have to spend another $1.2 billion about 2 years from now.. to fix the 2nd round of RROD'd consoles. Or the refurbs they issued out as replacements in the 1st round of fixes.

And 4 years from now.. another $1.2 billion?



Or you think that they will just expect to spend billions every couple of years replacing every 360 every made?

So lemme ask you this. If the $1.2 billion didnt involving FIXING the problem.. only COVERING warranty replacments...

Wouldnt Microsoft have to spend another $1.2 billion about 2 years from now.. to fix the 2nd round of RROD'd consoles. Or the refurbs they issued out as replacements in the 1st round of fixes.

And 4 years from now.. another $1.2 billion?



Or you think that they will just expect to spend billions every couple of years replacing every 360 every made?

MS did state that they believed that they fixed the problem, but the $1.2 bil was specifically set aside for 360s that had already been manufactured and had a significant chance of failing. I gave you proof that disputes your initial statements, yet you are still clinging to your misconceptions.

Oh FWIW:

Articles like this, that I read.. is what I was talking about when I said part of the $1 Billion did indeed go to FIXING and SOLVING the RROD problem.. (not just replacing consoles) as I originally said:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=190729

Xbox 360 RRoD finally explained?
Wednesday 11-Jun-2008 1:41 PM MS wanted to make the 360's graphic chip itself, apparently
77 Comments
The mystery behind the Xbox 360's infamous 'Red Ring of Death' problem, which has been bricking consoles left, right and centre since it launched in 2005, has finally been unravelled.

Speaking at the Design Automation Conference in California, Bryan Lewis, research VP and chief analyst at Gartner, said that the reason Microsoft was forced to admit 360's hardware fault and conduct a $1 billion recall was because it wanted to manufacture the 360's graphic chip itself, rather than paying a third party.

"Microsoft wanted to avoid an ASIC vendor," said Lewis. Microsoft designed the GPU itself, cut a traditional ASIC vendor out of the process and went straight to Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing, he explained.

But in the end, by going cheap MS ended up paying more than $1 billion in its 360 recall.

To try and fix the problem, said Lewis, the platform holder went back to an unnamed ASIC vendor and redesigned the chip. According to him, it was probably ATI.

"Had Microsoft left the graphics processor design to an ASIC vendor in the first place, would they have been able to avoid this problem? Probably. The ASIC vendor could have been able to design a graphics processor that dissipates much less power."

So if my PS3 breaks 6 months from now.. and I didnt buy the warranty because I listened to JD23, the internet guy, who said it was a poor investment. Then what?

Then you pay Sony $150 to fix your broken system. You haven't been able to dispute, however, that it is indeed a poor investment. Whether it makes you "feel" better or not, it is still a poor investment.


Youre doing entirely too much math dude. Any type of extra warranty is about comfort and security to the consumer. You cannot weigh it in simple mathmatic terms. Its simply insurance "in case shyt happens", because you cannot predict when and if a specific CE device will fail. No matter what the history.

So would the extended warranty still be a good investment if it cost as much as Sony charges for repairs?

I suppose you view someone who has never experienced a car accident.. but still pays car insurance as making a poor investment too.

A minimum level of car insurance is required by law, so this is a red-herring. However, people with older cars often decline collision insurance because it is a poor investment given the low value of the car. Also, many people in South Florida with expensive homes decline hurricane insurance because the exorbitant premiums make it a poor investment.

JD23.. youre losing me buddy.

1) Buying an extended warranty is solely for peace of mind, security and convience. All items which cannot be considered poor judgement because they are made solely off personal opinion. If the extra warranty makes someone feel secure.. then its money well spent money. When will you understand that?

2) You already stated Sony charges $150 for PS3 repairs. Since when does $150 = $60.

3) There is no magical mathmatical equation for insurance or extended warranties. So stop tryin to convince me (and others) there is one. What you consider a poor decision, others will consider smart. The reality is, people have different experiences, comfort levels and degrees of trust in products, goods and services sold to the consumer.

JD23.. youre losing me buddy.

1) Buying an extended warranty is solely for peace of mind, security and convience. All items which cannot be considered poor judgement because they are made solely off personal opinion. If the extra warranty makes someone feel secure.. then its money well spent money. When will you understand that?

2) You already stated Sony charges $150 for PS3 repairs. Since when does $150 = $60.

3) There is no magical mathmatical equation for insurance or extended warranties. So stop tryin to convince me (and others) there is one. What you consider a poor decision, others will consider smart. The reality is, people have different experiences, comfort levels and degrees of trust in products, goods and services sold to the consumer.

1. That is untrue. In your mind, it may be for security and convenience, but many people actually think they are saving money by purchasing extended warranties.

2. I was asking a hypothetical question based on what you would pay for a this so-called "peace of mind."

3. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, because you obviously do not believe in considering insurance as an uncertain cash flow (which is exactly what is done by the companies that provide extended warranties). What you are trying to verbalize is that you are risk averse and are willing to spend more money to reduce risk, which actually is quantified by economists all the time. All I was doing was shattering the fallacy that 'Theres no reason to ever consider a PRP a "poor investment",' as you stated earlier.

3) There is no magical mathmatical equation for insurance or extended warranties. So stop tryin to convince me (and others) there is one. What you consider a poor decision, others will consider smart. The reality is, people have different experiences, comfort levels and degrees of trust in products, goods and services sold to the consumer.

You seem to have little to no handle of probability, cost budgeting or risk assessment. Maybe you can't put a price on "peace of mind", but most people certainly can.

1. That is untrue. In your mind, it may be for security and convenience, but many people actually think they are saving money by purchasing extended warranties.

2. I was asking a hypothetical question based on what you would pay for a this so-called "peace of mind."

3. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, because you obviously do not believe in considering insurance as an uncertain cash flow (which is exactly what is done by the companies that provide extended warranties). What you are trying to verbalize is that you are risk averse and are willing to spend more money to reduce risk, which actually is quantified by economists all the time. All I was doing was shattering the fallacy that 'Theres no reason to ever consider a PRP a "poor investment",' as you stated earlier.

any extended warranty is almost by definition a bad investment for the purchaser. the insurance company has a large team of actuaries to make sure the amount you pay for an extended warranty is a bad investment for you and a good investment for the company...they offer it to make money, and won't offer it if they aren't sure they will make money.

so like jd23 is saying, you don't like the risk that you may end up spending more on a repair than you would on the warranty, so you buy the warranty.

but where i think the case of the 360 is unique is with the unexpected reliability problems, where the actual "morbidity" (can you tell i work for an insurance co :) ) of the console blew the actuarial tables out of the water. so you had a Best Buy extended warranty model where the device costs $x so the warranty costs $y, but $y is really not enough to cover the actual statistical repair costs of this particular device. so the extended warranty on a 360 actually probably was, sadly, a really good investment for consumers, at least until all the reliability problems are confirmed fixed.

fwiw, if it's got a hard drive, i buy the warranty. i've seen too many die. but now that i think about it, i forgot to with my ps3...

[...]

3) There is no magical mathmatical equation for insurance or extended warranties. So stop tryin to convince me (and others) there is one. What you consider a poor decision, others will consider smart. The reality is, people have different experiences, comfort levels and degrees of trust in products, goods and services sold to the consumer.

Well... It turns out that there are people whose job it is to estimate risk and probability, and to then use this as a guide to set insurance prices so that whomever is selling the insurance will achieve a net profit. Unless an actuary has radically miscalculated, selling extra warranty coverage is always a win for whomever is selling the warranty and always a loss, on average, for the consumer. However, specific consumers will indeed benefit, and this is why the industry exists.

The same applies to the auto insurance industry. In any given year, customers will pay in more than they will receive out in claims. In fact, over your lifetime, you will pay more in car insurance than you'll ever receive in claims. And if by some chance you keep having accidents and filing claims, your insurance company will raise your rates or drop you altogether. However, most customers can't recover financially from the total loss of a car, and so they are often compelled to purchase insurance (above and beyond minimal liability).

I am still trying to figure out why some of you keep calling the PRP a warranty when it is not.

MS calls it an expanded warranty (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/systemuse/Xbox360/resources/warrantyupdate.htm)

Heres an idea, instead of wineing about the injustices of the world. Get an education ,and be the one that writes the policies for your company instead of some worthless peon working for a big box company that won't hesitate to fire you in a hearbeat as soon as you deny the wrong person.

I did go to school, and the grammar and sentence structure of your paragraph tells me that you should heed your own advice.

Getting fired if I deny the wrong person isn't going to happen either. If a customer wants to take it up the chain, they call and ask ME what I want to do for the person. It is my store, I'm going to make the call. Unfortunately for that individual, if I didn't take care of it in store there is usually a reason. Like I said before, I side with the customer most of the time. Taking back a 2 year old dvd player or replacing your console (even under PRP) if you disassemble it isn't going to happen. I've said my peace, little buddy. Reply if you want, I won't even be able to read it.

Guys, back on topic. Next person to cross the line goes away for a while.

Carry on.

Kyser

You know what? All banter aside, I'm just going to keep my PS3 and get a Xbox once Jasper finally shows up. Since this was my thread starting out as a Reliability thread, I'll leave my reasoning as it is out of scope. However, I'm not completely sold on Falcon having 'everything' corrected - might as well take my chance w/ MS's latest/greatest.

If I were you, since you are obviously interested in the 360, I would just pull the trigger. Sure you can wait around for the Jasper, but who is to say that it won't suffer some similar problems. With the recent price cuts and bundles this holiday season I would definitely take the plunge and know that from day one, your console is covered for three full years. Hardware will always have problems. Microsoft are not dummies, they are not going to keep bleeding money on returns / repairs. They might not have everything perfect but the chances for failure have decreased significantly and even then, you are covered. There are a ton of games coming out right now and the coming months that are unbelievable! I definitely don't work for Microsoft but I would say it is time to "Jump In."

OP here again.

Had my PS3 for less then 1 month. Decided to return it and use the credit for a 360 PRO. Got a Lot 839X, so at least it was made in September. Whether or not that buys me reliability, I have no idea.

I used the price differance to pay for almost 1/2 a Wii. Now, if my 360 RRoDs on me, I can punch my wife in Super Smash Bros. while I lament MS engineering.

Or, just maybe I'll be in the 85% (maybe higher, who knows) that have had no problems at all.

Jopopsy

For what it's worth, the PS3 isn't bulletproof, either. I've had two X360 RRoDs and one failure that required replacement of my PS3, in particular the Blu-ray drive failed. Evidently there was a pretty large batch of 40GB PS3s (I believe from September of last year) that experienced this failure.

Overall I'm like many on this thread in that I use my X360 for 90+% of my gaming and the PS3 for 99%+ of my A/V including streaming music and video, Blu-ray, upconverted DVD, etc. I've played three PS3 exclusive titles, but otherwise I prefer the X360's controller, achievements (even though some games have trophies now), and online community.

Wrong.

ALL information I read was that $1 billion was the investigate/repair/replace and most importantly FIX the RROD problem. To include the redesign of console internals, cooling solutions, cpu/gpu/motherboard changes.

Please show me proof if you have found information that shows different.

Proof is their $hit still breaks on the regular.

BTW - We really don't know what precisely they're doing with this money. It of course stands to reason that they'll explore running improvements, but the fact they still implement the Xclamp is one indicator that they really aren't looking too hard at actually fixing anything. It seems it's all reactive measures.

Hope I'm wrong based on evidence stemming from MS' behavior, not because of what NeoGaf or some hole says.

Stuff breaks, period. My buddy's PS3 just died.

I wonder why MS won't just switch to silver bearing solder for use on the BGA chips, or switch to PGA chips so the flexing won't pop them free.

Silver solder needs to get HOTTTTTT in order to flow. There's no way the 360 is generating that type of heat. They're probably still using 63/37 Tin/Lead alloy which melts at low temps. In fact, I have made a field repair to a microphone with a bic lighter and screwdriver to reflow solder.

If they did either of the above even the X-clamp wouldn't cause the failures we see.

Well I didn't have time to read this whole thread but I currently have 3 360's. One is the original pro, a launch elite, and the new arcade. I have never had a single issue with any of them. Never had a RROD or anything. This is including carrying them by suitcase on several flights back and forth to the mainland and having them shipped here to Hawaii by contracted packers.

You know, I wonder how much of these "I've had 5 Xboxes all RRoD and I'm on my 6th one" are true vs. fanboys of other consoles posting FUD. I mean, you never really will read mountains of 'My Xbox is just fine' postings b/c folks tend to post when they have something to complain about.

You would think that MS replaces every Xbox they ever made if you read too many internet forums !! Clearly the would be losing a lot more money then they already set aside if this was the case.

I'm not saying they don't have a problem, but I wonder if its as huge as its made out to be online. They even dropped the price of the hardware - thats not something you do if you expect them all to come back under warranty. Thats a even bigger money drain then keeping the price stable in the first place.

Stuff breaks, period. My buddy's PS3 just died.

my brother's just did, too. The PS3 breaks, but it still turns on...just doesn't work right. His zephyr 360 RR'd the previous day! I think he took a surge, though.

IThey're probably still using 63/37 Tin/Lead alloy which melts at low temps. .

to sell the 360 in many of the markets it is sold in, lead-free solder is required for RoHS mandates.

to sell the 360 in many of the markets it is sold in, lead-free solder is required for RoHS mandates.

to sell in ANY market as a "childs toy" it must meet RoHS and be 100% Pb free.

the biggest issue with the 360 is that the solder IS lead free.

to sell in ANY market as a "childs toy" it must meet RoHS and be 100% Pb free.

the biggest issue with the 360 is that the solder IS lead free.

Didn't know that. It's good news though. Still, Tin/Antimony solder still melts at pretty low temperatures. I have personally used silver bearing solder before and it has to get so hot before it melts it's rediculous. I guess with ICs you run the risk of damaging the part with heat before the solder melts. I tried to use silver solder on a mic preamp I made once and learned two things the hard way. It's easy to pull pads of the PCB if you overheat, and once something is soldered through the board it is pretty much going to stay there!

I got the RROD on my first console about 18 months after getting my 360. I'm not really an avid gamer, but when a new game comes along that I want, I do play a couple hours a day until I've beaten it. I play in my home theatre and try to limit my time to 2 hours a day max. It's always cool and clean in there, and the 360 has plenty of ventilation. MS sent me a new console and then my wife bought one of her own. It had the new chip in it, but it only lasted 6 months before it started freezing up. We sent that one in and received a replacement for it as well. She lost interest in the Xbox and bought a Wii, so now I've got a back-up console for when my new one dies. I'd pay a premium for a 360 that was a better engineered console, quieter and that would last like my old Nintendo, PS1 and PS2 did in years gone by.

Didn't know that. It's good news though. Still, Tin/Antimony solder still melts at pretty low temperatures. I have personally used silver bearing solder before and it has to get so hot before it melts it's rediculous. I guess with ICs you run the risk of damaging the part with heat before the solder melts. I tried to use silver solder on a mic preamp I made once and learned two things the hard way. It's easy to pull pads of the PCB if you overheat, and once something is soldered through the board it is pretty much going to stay there!


i agree, and it was a horrible choice on the engineers part to use BGA, especially since they arent even bonded

why would you mount an IC with a non-compliant surface mount when there is a guaranteed high level of thermal expansion with the unit?.... just stupidity.

I wonder the same thing also. I've read about guys who have supposedly been through like 12 360's!!! My thoughts are if the system was giving them that much grief they must be doing something wrong on their end.

Bought my first Falcon Elite in DEC 07, and had to exchange it in APR 08 with MS because the video started freezing. Once I received the replacement, I decided to run the Xbox as much as I can, figuring that if the video freezes again, I want it to be within the 1 year warranty period.

I am a casual gamer and use the xbox mostly to stream HDTV from my Vista Media Center PC. Beginning in APR 08, I've had the xbox streaming about 6 hours per day even though I don't watch that much TV.

Last night the video went out again... this time, it did not freeze. Instead, the screen background is black and covered with horizontal magenta bars. I have to call MS today.

While the Falcons are better than their predecessors, they are not without fault.

-T

^ T-bone

i had zero red lights, but my video signal started getting distorted (green tint). like you, it eventually dropped out completely (with horizontal purple lines). after calling MS they said they'd fix it... for $100. my console was 13 months old.

i opted to open my console & fix it myself. the issue is the same as the 3RRoD: bad solder joints. i've been able to correct the issue with a few DIY shenanigans... but the proper solution would be to take it to a local electronic shop and perform a proper reflow of the GPU solder joints.

there is a place here in Columbus that will do it for $60 & has a 90 day warranty. for me, that is a better solution than $100 from MS. its cheaper AND there would be a faster turnaround. i will go that route if/when my console relapses. hopefully MS will honor your extended warranty... but if not, you might have options.

A.C.,

That's how mine started ... green tint, then blam! Lucky or me it's within warranty (too bad for you though). Keep us posted on your solution... if it does this again for me when it's out of warranty, I'll take it to a shop.

-T