There almost the same price right now. I currently have 2 nsd12's and want to upgrade. I have a large room. What are you opinions? Thanks.

There almost the same price right now. I currently have 2 nsd12's and want to upgrade. I have a large room. What are you opinions? Thanks.

How large of a room? My Ultra will be delivered this week.

I would suggest contacting SVS sales, they will respond almost immediately. They have been excellent in responding to my emails.

They will shoot straight with you.

The room is about 24x20. It is a two story ceiling and open on two sides to other rooms. I agree svs customer service is great.

Sounds like about a 7200cf room. I am not big on running 2 subs but you sound like a candidate for 2 Ultras.

I would see what SVS has to say.

Sounds like about a 7200cf room. I am not big on running 2 subs but you sound like a candidate for 2 Ultras.

I would see what SVS has to say.

+1, You have a very large room.

7200 cu ft....

Yes my friend you need 2 Ultras!!!

This comes from a guy running 1 Ultra in a 1800cu ft room who wouldn't mind duals :D

bgillyjcu,

I am with you, BUT not dual ultra's but at least 4 in that size room.

There almost the same price right now. I currently have 2 nsd12's and want to upgrade. I have a large room. What are you opinions? Thanks.


Since you already have 2 PB-12 NSDs, you have to decide whether you want an incremental upgrade, or an upgrade that is going to be a significant magnitude.

Are you going to keep the two PB-12 NSDs in the room and running your new addition along with them, or are you getting rid of the PB-12 NSDs?

Is SVS the only company you will buy from?

Are you interested in response to 10 Hz? If so, you might like the Epik Conquest as it is a real bottom dweller, 104 db @ 12.5 Hz with 3.4%
distortion in a 7,500 cubic foot room.

Premier sub tester Tom Nousaine found the Epik Conquest more than adequate in his 7,500 cubic foot room.

Premier sub tester Tom Nousaine found the Epik Conquest more than adequate in his 7,500 cubic foot room.

Tom Nousaine still uses his infinite baffle (8 15" TC-Sound drivers) as his main subwoofer system so the Conquest obviously was not adequate enough. :D

Regards,

Tom Nousaine still uses his infinite baffle (8 15" TC-Sound drivers) as his main subwoofer system so the Conquest obviously was not adequate enough. :D

Regards,

I never suggested that he sold off his IB system for a Conquest. What he did say, after having tested hundreds of subs over 15 years and receving the Epik Conquest for testing in his 7,500 cubic foot room was:

"This system (Epik Conquest) has Hurculean SPL capability compared with most other products currently available. The sole exception of course is the Eminent Technology rotary fan subwoofer that costs $13,000 and has an upper bandwidth limit of 25 Hz. The uniformity of dynamic capability exceeds that of any commercial product I've ever measured."

The OP has not said a word about DIY or IB. That doesn't mean that he might not be interested in a single commercial sub that can do justice to 10 Hz and has "Hurculean SPL capability", for the headroom.

There almost the same price right now. I currently have 2 nsd12's and want to upgrade. I have a large room. What are you opinions? Thanks.

Dual PB12-Plus subwoofers should offer some real advantages in terms of clean output versus a single PB13-Ultra. You'll have greater cone surface area, internal volume and port area (and power too).

I never suggested that he sold off his IB system for a Conquest. What he did say, after having tested hundreds of subs over 15 years and receving the Epik Conquest for testing in his 7,500 cubic foot room was:

I know what he said, relax. I was just pulling your leg a little bit. However I don't agree at all that the Conquest can do justice to 10 hz. 104 dB's at 12 hz is not what I would consider justice. That isn't to say that it isn't impressive because it is.

101-102 odd decibels at 10 hz is not enough to create any real perceptual feeling at 10 hz. Our ears naturally taper output at low frequencies which doesn't help matters.

Regards,

I know what he said, relax. I was just pulling your leg a little bit. However I don't agree at all that the Conquest can do justice to 10 hz. 104 dB's at 12 hz is not what I would consider justice. That isn't to say that it isn't impressive because it is.

101-102 odd decibels at 10 hz is not enough to create any real perceptual feeling at 10 hz. Our ears naturally taper output at low frequencies which doesn't help matters.

Regards,

That's all very interesting. When Bruce Thigpen installed two of his $13,000 Rotary subs in the church in New York City not long ago, he had to reduce the level of 6 Hz output to 105 db because 110 db was causing too much structural flexing. By all accounts, 105 db was awesome.

Feel free to search here and read it for yourself.

When Bruce Thigpen installed two of his $13,000 Rotary subs in the church in New York City not long ago, he had to reduce the level of 6 Hz output to 105 db because 110 db was causing too much structural flexing. By all accounts, 105 db was awesome.

I think you would agree that the Epik Conquest is not a Rotary subwoofer and does not load the space in the same manner as a conventional subwoofer.

Regards,

goneten,

I don't understand what you are meaning?

Wouldn't the two be just moving air?

Off the top of my head...a pair of the old Pluses (co-located) might have a db or 2 over the Ultra at some frequencies. The new Plus, I'm told, will have a similar bump over the old. If you can't swing dual Ultras, then dual Pluses (co-located) make the most sense if you want to stick with SVS. If you're splitting them, then the Ultra would still have a slight overall advantage. In my smaller room the Ultra was an obvious winner over a pair of Pluses, since none of the subs had to strain. In your room, you'd be stretching a single Ultra.

I know SVS says two are better than one. But given your space, if you can't afford to Ultras, then get one now and save for the others. The ultras also are a lot flatter than the 12s. I would have loved to have two Ultras, but that was too much $$$ for me. I ended up with something less expensive that would allow me to add a matching second short term if I need it.

BTW, you do get about a $70 discount on each Ultra if you order two.

Wouldn't the two be just moving air?

The way in which the rotary subwoofer couples to the air is different compared to a conventional cone. It offers a far greater impedance match to the air it's "driving".

Output capacity also doubles (according to Bruce) as compared to a cone woofer for each halving of frequency in a typical room. Whereas you need more and more cone area and progressively greater amplifier power to maintain the same output at lower frequencies with conventional woofer cones, it is the other way around with the rotary woofer.

I still somehow doubt that 6 hz would cause structural damage at 110 dB's in a church unless the church was "stimulating" a room mode at 6 hz which would be, in itself, highly unlikely.

Regards,

I know SVS says two are better than one. But given your space, if you can't afford to Ultras, then get one now and save for the others. The ultras also are a lot flatter than the 12s. I would have loved to have two Ultras, but that was too much $$$ for me. I ended up with something less expensive that would allow me to add a matching second short term if I need it.

BTW, you do get about a $70 discount on each Ultra if you order two.

I'd recommend that the OP purchase a single Ultra with the possibility of adding a second later. As was mentioned earlier, unless you stack the two PB12 Pluses, the single Ultra should probably have a bit more output than both Pluses combined. Plus, there's no "what if" factor involved. You would have the best sub SVS has to offer, so you won't be wondering "how much better would the Ultra have been than my Pluses?" Also, I believe the discount on the purchase of more than one Ultra is the same 5% discount extended to returning SVS customers. So assuming prices don't go up, it won't cost any more to purchase the second Ultra later. Of course there might be a discount I don't know about for buying two at once, but I don't think so.

The way in which the rotary subwoofer couples to the air is different compared to a conventional cone. It offers a far greater impedance match to the air it's "driving".

Output capacity also doubles (according to Bruce) as compared to a cone woofer for each halving of frequency in a typical room. Whereas you need more and more cone area and progressively greater amplifier power to maintain the same output at lower frequencies with conventional woofer cones, it is the other way around with the rotary woofer.

I still somehow doubt that 6 hz would cause structural damage at 110 dB's in a church unless the church was "stimulating" a room mode at 6 hz which would be, in itself, highly unlikely.

Regards,

Oh ok.

The way in which the rotary subwoofer couples to the air is different compared to a conventional cone. It offers a far greater impedance match to the air it's "driving".

Output capacity also doubles (according to Bruce) as compared to a cone woofer for each halving of frequency in a typical room. Whereas you need more and more cone area and progressively greater amplifier power to maintain the same output at lower frequencies with conventional woofer cones, it is the other way around with the rotary woofer.

I still somehow doubt that 6 hz would cause structural damage at 110 dB's in a church unless the church was "stimulating" a room mode at 6 hz which would be, in itself, highly unlikely.

Regards,

How 105 db at 6 Hz was achieved in a mamoth church space does not change the fact that 6 hz @ 105 db was audible in the Trinity Church. There is a thresshold of audibility chart floating around somewhere in the DIY section. IIRC, 100 db is audible at 10 Hz.

Arguing that the TRW 17 produces its sound differently is also not the point.

I also did not say structural damage. I said structural flexing.

There are other kinds of structural problems that HAVE happened with massive IB systems, like a garage door coming out of its track, sediment in old pipes coming lose and creating a clog, etc. Unfortuantely, I can't link you to those tests.

It took 2 TRW 17s to achieve the results in the huge space at Trinity Church. For those who want to insure that they can achieve audibility at 12.5 Hz at home, two Conquests might suit them better. Co-located, ~110 db @ 12.5 Hz.

Also, I believe the discount on the purchase of more than one Ultra is the same 5% discount extended to returning SVS customers. So assuming prices don't go up, it won't cost any more to purchase the second Ultra later. Of course there might be a discount I don't know about for buying two at once, but I don't think so.

I would contact SVS if interested. I have an Epik on early order, but may cancel it. SVS offered me a poor economy discount on a single Ultra and a pretty nice discount on two. Now I just need to decide if I really need/want two.

Thanks for all the input. The subs will not be colocated they will have to be on the outside of the front mains (one on each side). I have about an 1800 budget so I wasn't sure. I'm leaning towards one ultra and waiting for another in the future. How do you guys think an ultra on one side and one nsd12 on the other would sound? I can't stach the two nsd12's on one side, WAF, but one on each side I can get away with.

How 105 db at 6 Hz was achieved in a mamoth church space does not change the fact that 6 hz @ 105 db was audible in the Trinity Church.

According to whom ?

There is a thresshold of audibility chart floating around somewhere in the DIY section. IIRC, 100 db is audible at 10 Hz.

There is a difference between audible and "doing justice". If you could provide a link showing the "thresshold of audibility chart", that would be helpful.

Arguing that the TRW 17 produces its sound differently is also not the point.

You are comparing the TRW to the Conquest which are two completely different animals.

I also did not say structural damage. I said structural flexing.

Right, "too much structural flexing" and the onset of structural damage is not far behind.

For those who want to insure that they can achieve audibility at 12.5 Hz at home, two Conquests might suit them better.

You can believe what you want. I disagree that 100 dB's at 10 hz is audible for one thing and for another, you can't just add 6 dB's down to 10 hz when adding a second Conquest. Co-location depends on several variables.

Regards,

Thanks for all the input. The subs will not be colocated they will have to be on the outside of the front mains (one on each side). I have about an 1800 budget so I wasn't sure. I'm leaning towards one ultra and waiting for another in the future. How do you guys think an ultra on one side and one nsd12 on the other would sound? I can't stach the two nsd12's on one side, WAF, but one on each side I can get away with.I think it would definitely help. Output probably similar to a pair of +s co-located. SVS tech support could probably give you explicit setup tips. Maybe you can find a spot to hide the 2nd PB12NSD somewhere in that room :D.

Ron,
Do you think the nsd 12 would take away any quality from the pb13, I'm thinking if I set it a little reserved it would just add to it, the more the better?

How do you guys think an ultra on one side and one nsd12 on the other would sound? I can't stach the two nsd12's on one side, WAF, but one on each side I can get away with.
It's definitely doable! No not optimal, but it can work in a pinch while your waiting for the rest of your funds. It will detract some away from your SQ, (still very good though) better than the NSD on it's own. Should be 4-6dB gain in headroom depending on your room and how close their located to each other. I get a full 6dB with the little test I did with the 22Hz tuned PCi and the Ultra. Imo, your going to want to run the Ultra in it's stock 20Hz tune though.

Ron,
Do you think the nsd 12 would take away any quality from the pb13, I'm thinking if I set it a little reserved it would just add to it, the more the better?

For HT no I would play all you have. As long as they are set up not to cancel each other out.An explosion sound all the same :) Music you may tell the difference. But imo you really don't require as much sub as you do for HT

if the proceeds of the sale of the 12NSD is not necessary - i'd use those on the main L and R

i'd let them play parallel to the mains but make sure that the lowpass is set around 100-110hz

but i wouldn't crossover the mains (on the receiver) lower than 60hz

Ok I'm a bass head, and I have a room just larger then yours, with 2 - PB12-Plus/2s and even though they have quite a bit of output, I personally don't feel they are enough for me... Therefore, I don't feel that dual Plus's will cut the mustard in there, and I'm sure SVS will agree.

I have chosen to go with 2 DIY Sealed 18's and if I still need more I will add a 3rd or 4th... I'll know by the middle to end of next month when the builds are complete..

I would suggest at least 2 of the Ultra13's

ribbit,
How would I hook up your suggestion?

Warpdrv,
2 sealed 18's. That's crazy, but I like it. I will be interested to hear how that works for you. How big are those boxes going to be?

Hey fatsow... ewww I like saying that... I haven't said that since I was in 6th grade.... :)

They will 2'x2'x2'... I am going off this build that Neo-Dan put up...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1051665

I'm shooting for a nice looking veneer finish in the end, with granite tops...

I like the box size, and I can easily add a 3rd if need be...

granite tops. That's interesting. I would have a much better chance of getting stained hardwood and granite tops in the living room. I hope you post some pictures when your done. Thanks for the link.

Here is Fatawan's build..... he put in Dual opposing Maelstrom-X 18" drivers with a granite top.

The Sky's the limit if you choose to go for DIY.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14703406#post14703406

Take a look through the whole build, He did a nice job....
$350.00/18" driver
Behringer EP2500 amp is @ $300.00 for each driver.

Extra's $100.00 for various parts Or more depending on build quality.

For $1K you could build some serious subs, I'm sure you could find someone to help you if you needed.... :)