Let me qualify myself. I have not looked at HT gear in 10 years. A lot has changed.
I am setting up a new HT in a new house. The room is done. I had planned on re-using my 12 year old Definitive Powerfield 15 TL. I made the mistake of taking a look at the new subs out there and reading the forum and it got me thinking.
One basic question. I am reading all the test specs of different subs. Wow that could make your head explode. I am confused as to what is actually important.

Do I need a sub that does 105 db at 20hz? I listen at much lower levels. Is that to handle the peaks?

I have no bass traps but full acoustic treatment of the walls professionally done. As I said I have an old Definitive Powerfield 15 TL. I have not heard it yet in the room. I am considering an upgrade to a new sub. I am blessed with a little financial freedom so I can get a little crazy. I am 90% movies. It will be paired with my old Paradigm Reference LCR 450’s in front.

My room is pretty small. 16 x 13 x 8.5. Placement is a bit of an issue, the smaller the size the more I will be able to adjust its placement.

I am considering a HSU VTF 3 mk 3, the SVS PC Ultra, the SVS PC 12 plus.
Obviously a wide range. I like the single point EQ in the SVS products. I am wondering if the PC ultra is over the top. I picked the PC over the PB because of the smaller footprint.

Any suggestions.

Thanks

Bill

I think you are well oriented my friend.
Pick the best you like...THe PC has the smallest footprint of your list.

Why don't you try the 15TL and see if it satisfies your needs. If you are still unsure about what you are missing, then plot the in-room frequency response using an SPL meter and Microsoft Excel or maybe Room EQ Wizard. That will give you a visual representation what you are hearing. Sometimes the peaks and valleys are extreme but easily fixed with an EQ. You may notice that your sub doesn't play as low as you thought. Unfortunately, that can't be fixed with EQ.

Do you need 20hz at 105db? Probably not but it sure is fun. My normal viewing is usually done at -20db from reference but I'm making sure that my sub's response is flat down to the single digits. Why? Because I don't want to miss anything in the soundtrack. To reach these depths while keeping distortion to a minimum requires what others call 'overkill'. I call it 'just right'.

-Robert

My very first sub was the same sub that you have now. I had it for a number of years. Probably about 5-6 years. Then I got my second sub. A JM Labs SW900. A big upgrade for me. It really outperformed the def tech in all areas. I had that sub for about four years. Now I am on my third sub. A Seaton Sound SubMersive1. It easily outperforms the other two that I have had. All of these subs have been in the same room. Getting a sub that can really rock does add something to the experience. BTW my room is about 1000cf.
Everyone says "I only listen at insert level here". That is until they get something bigger and better :). Then that level goes up because it sounds so good. I am pretty confident in saying that any of the choices you choose will be an upgrade for you. But I agree that trying the sub in the room and plotting the response is a good step. That way you will also have some sort of comparison to look at. Good luck

The best thing about using a sub that has more output cababilities than you need is that it will play much cleaner in the volume range you do use. The bass is distinctly better when the sub or subs are not straining to do their job. Headroom is your friend.

The best thing about using a sub that has more output cababilities than you need is that it will play much cleaner in the volume range you do use. The bass is distinctly better when the sub or subs are not straining to do their job. Headroom is your friend.

Agree 100%. It is better when the sub is playing under its max capabilities.

Do you guys have a link to a spreadsheet to do the math for the db drop off on the radioshack SPL meter? I could gin up a spreadsheet but I would prefer to just plug in numbers. I bought Avia II but have not cracked it open yet.

Have you looked in the sticky thread "SPL Meter Correction Tables" at the top? It is a bit of a confusing read if I remember correctly. I gave up and obtained REW.

Edit: Oops, I doubt a link to a spreadsheet is listed there, just the raw data. Sorry.

Do you guys have a link to a spreadsheet to do the math for the db drop off on the radioshack SPL meter? I could gin up a spreadsheet but I would prefer to just plug in numbers. I bought Avia II but have not cracked it open yet.

http://www.audioc.com/library1/testcd/testcd.htm
There is a link on that page
Just click the "download subwoofer excel worksheet".

Let me qualify myself. I have not looked at HT gear in 10 years. A lot has changed.
I am setting up a new HT in a new house. The room is done. I had planned on re-using my 12 year old Definitive Powerfield 15 TL. I made the mistake of taking a look at the new subs out there and reading the forum and it got me thinking.
One basic question. I am reading all the test specs of different subs. Wow that could make your head explode. I am confused as to what is actually important.

Do I need a sub that does 105 db at 20hz? I listen at much lower levels. Is that to handle the peaks?

I have no bass traps but full acoustic treatment of the walls professionally done. As I said I have an old Definitive Powerfield 15 TL. I have not heard it yet in the room. I am considering an upgrade to a new sub. I am blessed with a little financial freedom so I can get a little crazy. I am 90% movies. It will be paired with my old Paradigm Reference LCR 450’s in front.

My room is pretty small. 16 x 13 x 8.5. Placement is a bit of an issue, the smaller the size the more I will be able to adjust its placement.

I am considering a HSU VTF 3 mk 3, the SVS PC Ultra, the SVS PC 12 plus.
Obviously a wide range. I like the single point EQ in the SVS products. I am wondering if the PC ultra is over the top. I picked the PC over the PB because of the smaller footprint.

Any suggestions.

Thanks

Bill

It used to be that 105 db from 25 Hz on up was considered sufficient. The better subs now can do markedly better both in extension, output and sound quality.

People talk about it (output) in terms of headroom. Extra headroom is a good thing. Makes your deepest and highest output bass effortless.

I suggest the PC-Ultra.

Mike Duke, Thanks for the link that is just what I was looking for.

Spyboy, most the the professional reviews point out that going below 20hz does not have real value for movies. I am not a big organ music fan so belting out 10-15 hz does not have a lot of value to me. I picked 20hz and 105 as an example. I like bass I think it makes the experience. I bought Ironman as our premier movie. None of us have seen it, I think it will be good.

RLJ, I am going to try the PF 15 TL. It does make quite a rumble. It will be interesting to use it as a sub base point. Then remeasure with whatever I pick.
All of the my equipment is new, the glaring old technology is the sub. The internet is a great thing, kind of. You can really did deeeep and get information overload.

Bill

Spyboy, most the the professional reviews point out that going below 20hz does not have real value for movies. I am not a big organ music fan so belting out 10-15 hz does not have a lot of value to me. I picked 20hz and 105 as an example. I like bass I think it makes the experience. I bought Ironman as our premier movie. None of us have seen it, I think it will be good.


Bill

Bill, many of the bass freaks who post regularly on this forum would have a different opinion about the value of extension below 20hz for movies. When reproduced with sufficent output, <20 hz can make a difference in feel which enhances the movie experience. However what should be stressed is that getting the reproduction above 20hz right is of far more importance.

Bill, many of the bass freaks who post regularly on this forum would have a different opinion about the value of extension below 20hz for movies. When reproduced with sufficent output, <20 hz can make a difference in feel which enhances the movie experience. However what should be stressed is that getting the reproduction above 20hz right is of far more importance.

+1
Bass freak #1 has appeared...HAHHAHAHA:D

Many of the subs I am looking at make you make a choice by adding plugs to the ports to lower the range of the sub. Again my thought (with no experience to back it up) is that clean bass in the heart of the action is better then lowered output to hit the really deep stuff that is infrequent.

The good news is I can experiment to see what I prefer.

All the equipment goes in tomorrow, I am geeked. The bad news is I have no carpet and no seating. That will come in the next week and a half. Break out the lawn chairs!

Here is a photo of the screen wall the screen has not been put in yet.


http://bill-stan.smugmug.com/photos/394266506_p9hvb-L.jpg

Here is the back wall
http://bill-stan.smugmug.com/photos/394265863_ifUsY-L.jpg

Thanks again

Bill

RLJ, I am going to try the PF 15 TL. It does make quite a rumble. It will be interesting to use it as a sub base point. Then remeasure with whatever I pick. Until I upgrade to REW, I use my trusty SPL meter and PEQ (http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/eq/peq.htm). It will not only plot your in-room response with built in SPL meter correction, it will allow you to tweak the response in software. You can then take your settings and apply them to a Behringer Feedback Destroyer. My post EQ measurements were predicted spot on in the software.

The only thing that took some time was creating the test tone CD. I use a free tone generator to create wave files matching the software's different frequencies.

-Robert

20hz in blockbuster movies(big action movies) is very frequent...

20hz in blockbuster movies(big action movies) is very frequent...

I want to get to 20, the subs on my list should go there. I just don't think I will need 15 or 10.

Ok.

Any of the subs you mentioned will cover 20hz without any problem. The 13Ultra would put a real smile on your face.:)

Any of the subs you mentioned will cover 20hz without any problem. The 13Ultra would put a real smile on your face.:)

Yea I know I am heading that way. I want to see after all the furniture is in the room how much room I have. I should also be able to test sub placement with the PF 15.

Will a front firing sub and a down firing sub behave the same way? The Definitive PF15 has a rear port. It is about 1" x 17".

Typically, front or down firing won't make too much difference. A rear port can be affected by close placement to a wall.