I've never done this before, so I'm looking for some help!

I am going to have 8 HDTVs in my house, wired to a central media closet. In the media closet, I will have 4 HDMI sources -- digital cable STB, Xbox 360 MCE, Blu-Ray player, and a laptop PC with a VGA-to-HDMI scaler converter.

My questions:

1) What wiring do I need to run? I'm leaning towards HDMI extenders (baluns) using CAT6 cable. Some of the distances will be 100' from the media closet.

2) What HDMI switches/distribution amps do I need? Here's the trick -- I want to be able to select ANY of the 4 input sources on ANY of the 8 HDTVs. For example -- I may want to watch digital cable on HDTVs 1,2,8 and a Blu-Ray movie on HDTVs 3,6,7 and the Xbox on HDTV 4, and the PC on HDTV 5. Then switch that around to any combination. Maybe watch the PC on all 8 HDTVs.

3) What kind of remote do I need? I know I'll need an RF remote, but will the Harmony 890 (for example) control the switches and distribution amps?


Thanks and Aloha!

Aloha,

1) HDMI extenders through CAT-6 should work such as http://www.outdoorspeakerdepot.com/caexforhd.html

2) You could use an 8X8 HDMI matrix switch such as http://www.hdtvsupply.com/6x6hdmasw.html

3) You should be able to control everything with an RF remote. I'm not familiar with the Harmony but from a look at its capabilities it would seem to meet your needs.

Doing a HDMI matrix isn't going to be anything close to inexpensive. I've also heard about some folks having problems with some switchers if the displays or sources are different resolutions.

Well, with 8 new HDTV's in the house, I didn't think the cost of the matrix switch would be a big concern.

Good point, but I've got a good bit of equipment and still suffered a bit of sticker shock when first looking at distro equipment. Just something to consider, although it may not be important to the OP.

"Matrix" -- that's what I'm looking for.

I could live with a 3x8 (3 input, 8 output) matrix instead of a 4x8.

Is going with a component matrix cheaper?
Considering the cost of the matrix switch and running cable?
Can component be run over CAT6? Single cable runs or dual cable runs?

Before I heard here about a "matrix", I started to diagram out 4x1 splitters for each of the 8 TVs, with 1x8 switches for each of the 4 sources. But I got a feeling that eight 4x1's and four 1x8's would be very expensive, not to mention the remote probably couldn't handle it.

The HDTV's are just (2) 42" 1080p plasmas, and (6) 32" 720p LCDs. Any problem combining 1080p and 720p outputs on the same matrix? Will the signal be auto-scaled to the best the device can do? If a play a 1080p disc on the Blu-Ray player, I'd like it to show 1080p on the plasmas, and 720p on the LCDs. Possible?


Thanks again for all your advice. Aloha

Matrix switches do not typically scale signals. What you send in is what you get out. So, no your 1080p source will not scale down to native 720p.

Component is much cheaper than HDMI distribution and in most cases much easier to implement and more reliable. You can buy component matrix switches for a few hundred dollars used or new ones for less than $1K. You can use something like the Audio Authority AVatrix which does the matrix switching AND the component to Catx conversion in one neat unit with wall plates for all your connections. Or you can roll your own with a matrix switch and your own Catx baluns. If you figure 8 TVs:

$500 for a 4x8 matrix switch
$160 for each balun set to each TV x 8 = $1280

So, for less than two grand you get matrix switching, component distribution, analog and digital audio distribution and IR distribution (less your IR targets).

Thanks

Matrix switches do not typically scale signals. What you send in is what you get out. So, no your 1080p source will not scale down to native 720p.

So, I need to set all my sources to the highest common denomiator of the HDTVs? Since I have a mix of 720p and 1080p, I should set my sources to only 720p. Actually, I think all the HDTVs support 1080i, so I guess I could set it to 1080i (but not 1080p).

$500 for a 4x8 matrix switch

I'm having a heck of a time finding a 4x8 A/V component matrix. Anyplace you recommend?

One other thing to note. You said that you might want to watch digital cable on HDTVs 1, 2 and 8. If you want to be able to watch different channels on those 3 TV's simultaneously, you will need 3 cable boxes. If you are okay watching the same show on all 3 hdtv's then 1 digital cable STB will suffice.

Thanks



So, I need to set all my sources to the highest common denomiator of the HDTVs? Since I have a mix of 720p and 1080p, I should set my sources to only 720p. Actually, I think all the HDTVs support 1080i, so I guess I could set it to 1080i (but not 1080p).



I'm having a heck of a time finding a 4x8 A/V component matrix. Anyplace you recommend?

Yeah, I guess 8x4's are more common or 8x8's which are significantly more expensive. If you are going the used route, keep your eye out on ebay and look for Extron Crosspoint or Extron 100 or Extron 200 switchers. These are professional grade switchers that originally handled RGBHV signals but have superior bandwidth and can handle Component signals perfectly. I personally use an Extron 100 8x8 that I bought for $200. Autopatch is another manufacturer used frequently and often found used on ebay.

If you are going new, you'll have to use an 8x8 which can add significantly to the cost. Shineybow, VideoStorm, Audio Authority, NeoThings are just a few that make quality matrix switches.

Can component be run over CAT6? Single cable runs or dual cable runs?
You can run component video plus digital audio over one CAT6 line with a component to CAT6 balun. They come in passive and active versions, with the active being more expensive but generally better for long cable runs.

You can run component video plus digital audio over one CAT6 line with a component to CAT6 balun. They come in passive and active versions, with the active being more expensive but generally better for long cable runs.

Gefen and NTI make one that does component video, digital audio (in the case of Gefen) AND analog audio over a single Cat5. No IR though.

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4141#buy
http://www.networktechinc.com/hdtv-extend.html

Well, I've been looking around for a 4x8 or 8x8 component matrix, and I'm not having much luck. What I can find is a Shinybow SB5588 8x8 component matrix which goes for about $1,400. Ouch.

On the other hand, there's the Cables To Go (Impact Acoustics) 3x5 component matrix which is a much more affordable $180. Problem is, it's short 1 input and short 3 outputs for what I want.

Which brings up the question -- can I accomplish any sources on any combinations of TVs using (2) Impact Acoustics 3x5 matrices? I was thinking of cascading them (if that's possible) but I think you'd be restricted on the destination matrix to whatever source has been selected for the uplink output port on the origin matrix (if that makes sense).

Aside from an 8x8 (or 4x8 which I can't find) matrix, what other options do I have that will keep this under < $400?

Aside from an 8x8 (or 4x8 which I can't find) matrix, what other options do I have that will keep this under < $400?

You can't get there from here. Central distribution is not cheap. You need to seriously reconsider your budget if you think you can distribute multiple sources to 8 HDTVs for under $400 or even under $1000. While you 'can' find a used Extron for the $400 range, you would still need baluns for each TV, unless you run 5 coax cables to each TV plus some means of IR distribution (unless you go all RF). With the 5 coax you could run native component and analog audio straight from the switch to each TV.

I've been pretty much convinced to go with component, instead of HDMI, as a matter of cost-saving.

Am I correct in understanding that I won't need baluns if I use component (100' runs max)? I'm also assuming that I need to run "mini-coax" cable for my component runs.

You don't 'have' to run mini-coax. Many people do because it is easier to pull that than 5 runs of standard coax. Just make sure it is solid copper center and not copper clad steel. The first is ideal for component, the second for SAT/CATV type distribution.

One more thing to consider. The used Extron's and Autopatches are not controlled via IR. They either have a faceplate for local control or RS232 serial control. So, you will need a means to control them remotely. Either an IR to RS232 adapter with the proper setup, or a primary controller that's capable of issuing serial commands. Whether that's a black box system or a PC depends on what else you anticipate controlling.

Lastly, not sure if you saw the earlier post by another member making sure that you understand that the matrix switch won't allow you to watch multiple TV channels on different TVs from a single cable or sat box. You'll need multiple boxes as multiple sources depending on how many different channels you need to watch simultaneously throughout the home.

If it were me and this was my new home, to each TV location at a minimum I would run a bundle of 5 mini-coax and two Cat6 cables. That will pretty much cover you whether you go component now, component w/ baluns or HDMI w/ baluns later.

Just to add my $0.02, since I have similar needs and am about to run all the low-voltage wire in my new construction:

I got an 8x8 Extron 100 on Ebay for <$200. I've tested it. Works great. I will control it with CQC via rs-232 serial. (There are tons of 4x8 Extrons on Ebay all the time. Make a saved search for "extron" and you will get about 40 hits per day , several of which will be matrix switches.)

I am running a 5-conductor bundle of rg59 minicoax to some video locations, along with 4 runs of cat5e to all video locations. (see ebay item # 180292798591 for inexpensive minicoax at $142 for 500feet, plus shipping. can't vouch for the quality yet). My plan is to use the rg59 to save money on baluns, but the cat5e is there in case I ever want to run HDMI or component over cat5e. Also for serial control of the monitors, IR control, or whatever. (See Monoprice.com for good prices on bulk cat5e. They've actually got a special going on right now.)

I agree with Robertmee that it is unlikely you will distribute highdef to 8 monitors for < $400. Although if you use minicoax / no baluns, you might get close if you get a good deal on a matrix switch.

Well, I've been looking around for a 4x8 or 8x8 component matrix, and I'm not having much luck. What I can find is a Shinybow SB5588 8x8 component matrix which goes for about $1,400. Ouch.

On the other hand, there's the Cables To Go (Impact Acoustics) 3x5 component matrix which is a much more affordable $180. Problem is, it's short 1 input and short 3 outputs for what I want.

Which brings up the question -- can I accomplish any sources on any combinations of TVs using (2) Impact Acoustics 3x5 matrices? I was thinking of cascading them (if that's possible) but I think you'd be restricted on the destination matrix to whatever source has been selected for the uplink output port on the origin matrix (if that makes sense).

Aside from an 8x8 (or 4x8 which I can't find) matrix, what other options do I have that will keep this under < $400?I think you could use two 3x5's to accomplish your goal of 4x8 although control might get a little messy unless you were doing it all serially through automation software such as mainlobby or that other one that is always mentioned instead of mainlobby.

Wouldn't this work?
Switcher 1:
Input 1 & 2: Source 1 & 2
Input 3: Output 5 from Switcher 2
Output 1-4: HD TV's 1-4
Output 5: Input 3 of Switcher 2

Switcher 2:
Input 1 & 2: Source 3 & 4
Input 3: Output 5 from Switcher 1
Output 1-4: HD TV's 5-8
Output 5: Input 3 of Switcher 1

Then if you wanted to watch source 3 on TV4, you would route Input 1 to Output 5 on Switcher 2 then route Input 3 to Output 4 on Switcher 1.

Again this might be kind of messy trying to do it with a remote control without a macro or all of the switching settings could be handled very easily from a touchscreen running mainlobby.

Am I missing something here? Then again, it would be easier to find a used Extron 8x8 (I don't see many 4x8's on my daily Ebay saved searches) and do it all in one switcher.

Good luck,
Murray

I think you could use two 3x5's to accomplish your goal of 4x8 although control might get a little messy unless you were doing it all serially through automation software such as mainlobby or that other one that is always mentioned instead of mainlobby.

Wouldn't this work?
Switcher 1:
Input 1 & 2: Source 1 & 2
Input 3: Output 5 from Switcher 2
Output 1-4: HD TV's 1-4
Output 5: Input 3 of Switcher 2

Switcher 2:
Input 1 & 2: Source 3 & 4
Input 3: Output 5 from Switcher 1
Output 1-4: HD TV's 5-8
Output 5: Input 3 of Switcher 1

Then if you wanted to watch source 3 on TV4, you would route Input 1 to Output 5 on Switcher 2 then route Input 3 to Output 4 on Switcher 1.

Again this might be kind of messy trying to do it with a remote control without a macro or all of the switching settings could be handled very easily from a touchscreen running mainlobby.

Am I missing something here? Then again, it would be easier to find a used Extron 8x8 (I don't see many 4x8's on my daily Ebay saved searches) and do it all in one switcher.

Good luck,
Murray

Won't work. How do you get Source 3 to TV1 AND Source 4 to TV2? It gets you close but still has its limitations.

And of course, that 'other one' is CQC....But you already knew that ;)

Won't work. How do you get Source 3 to TV1 AND Source 4 to TV2? It gets you close but still has its limitations.

And of course, that 'other one' is CQC....But you already knew that ;)OK, minor technicalities... :D

I have been through this twice in my houses and have come to the conclusion that it is dumb to try to centralize everything.

1. Practically speaking, it will never work for HDMI unless all of the tv's are identical. So you're forced to use component and take a loss in quality.
2. If you're using component, your upscaling dvd player won't upscale so your old dvd's will take a major hit in quality.
3. The components and control software and remotes, etc. will cost as much or more than just buying more settops and dvd players and will be WAY more complicated and hard to use.
4. Your centralized wiring/switching is going to become obsolete. 10 years ago I ran component and ran DVI as a guarantee against future upgrades. in 10 years component won't even be available on TV's and HDMI will be replaced by something else.
5. Finally, the BIGGIE. You have to watch the same channel on all of the tv's. This is completely unacceptable. I can hear my wife now, "We have 8 friggin' HDTV's and we spent all of this money and we can't watch different channels? Are you crazy?" You're going to need 2-4 settop boxes or DVR's.

I strongly believe that it makes a lot more sense to distribute the equipment around and do some minimal sharing. I have 7 HDTV's and what I did was think long and hard about what I am really going to do in each location. I have 2 dvd players, 4 dvr's, and 1 game machine. My bathroom tv is for watching the news while we get ready in the am. It gets basic cable (including high def) period. I don't see myself playing games or watching movies in the bathroom. I share equipment on two tv's (Kitchen and Family Room) but still can watch different channels. Home theater has the latest and greatest. Etc.

Each room is optimized for its use and it's simple enough that when a guest comes over, they can watch tv without a users manual or me there to show them how.


IMHO Centralized video sounds really cool in principle but makes no sense in real life.

I have been through this twice in my houses and have come to the conclusion that it is dumb to try to centralize everything.

1. Practically speaking, it will never work for HDMI unless all of the tv's are identical. So you're forced to use component and take a loss in quality.
2. If you're using component, your upscaling dvd player won't upscale so your old dvd's will take a major hit in quality.
3. The components and control software and remotes, etc. will cost as much or more than just buying more settops and dvd players and will be WAY more complicated and hard to use.
4. Your centralized wiring/switching is going to become obsolete. 10 years ago I ran component and ran DVI as a guarantee against future upgrades. in 10 years component won't even be available on TV's and HDMI will be replaced by something else.
5. Finally, the BIGGIE. You have to watch the same channel on all of the tv's. This is completely unacceptable. I can hear my wife now, "We have 8 friggin' HDTV's and we spent all of this money and we can't watch different channels? Are you crazy?" You're going to need 2-4 settop boxes or DVR's.

I strongly believe that it makes a lot more sense to distribute the equipment around and do some minimal sharing. I have 7 HDTV's and what I did was think long and hard about what I am really going to do in each location. I have 2 dvd players, 4 dvr's, and 1 game machine. My bathroom tv is for watching the news while we get ready in the am. It gets basic cable (including high def) period. I don't see myself playing games or watching movies in the bathroom. I share equipment on two tv's (Kitchen and Family Room) but still can watch different channels. Home theater has the latest and greatest. Etc.

Each room is optimized for its use and it's simple enough that when a guest comes over, they can watch tv without a users manual or me there to show them how.


IMHO Centralized video sounds really cool in principle but makes no sense in real life.


1. I would argue the loss in quality using component.
2. My Zenith DVB-318 upscales to 1080i over component.
3. Depends on what you are buying multiples of. Current gen HD Tivo's and Denon dvd players can add up quick.
4. Component has supposedly been on the way out for years already. Custom installers will tell you it's still the best and easiest to work with as far as reliability. I have my doubts about its demise.
5. Multiple (2-4) DirecTV boxes are relatively cheap.

It all boils down to different strokes for different folks. I just finished centralizing everything with an Extron 8x4 and for me, it's the best money I've spent so far.

I have been through this twice in my houses and have come to the conclusion that it is dumb to try to centralize everything.

1. Practically speaking, it will never work for HDMI unless all of the tv's are identical. So you're forced to use component and take a loss in quality.
2. If you're using component, your upscaling dvd player won't upscale so your old dvd's will take a major hit in quality.
3. The components and control software and remotes, etc. will cost as much or more than just buying more settops and dvd players and will be WAY more complicated and hard to use.
4. Your centralized wiring/switching is going to become obsolete. 10 years ago I ran component and ran DVI as a guarantee against future upgrades. in 10 years component won't even be available on TV's and HDMI will be replaced by something else.
5. Finally, the BIGGIE. You have to watch the same channel on all of the tv's. This is completely unacceptable. I can hear my wife now, "We have 8 friggin' HDTV's and we spent all of this money and we can't watch different channels? Are you crazy?" You're going to need 2-4 settop boxes or DVR's.

IMHO Centralized video sounds really cool in principle but makes no sense in real life.

I must disagree. My wife hates the thought of a bunch of equipment throughout the house, visible or in cabinets near the monitors.

1. I cannot appreciate the difference in quality between component and HDMI. My cat5e runs should give me a modicum a "future proofness" anyway.

3. One of my centralization goals is to make it LESS complicated, using UMPC touchscreen interfaces. My matrix switch was $168 on Ebay.

4. Technology always improves. So what? Use cat5e. Run empty conduit also.

5. Doesn't matter how many tuner boxes you have. Centrally locate them all. You can watch as many different channels as you have boxes. This is a no-brainer. Plus, there is the added benefit of watching the same HD sporting event on all your HD monitors, if needed. So you need to subscribe 8 HD satellite tuners if you don't want to watch 8 different HD feeds at once.

I strongly DISagree that you should distribute equipment around the house. This is exactly what we are trying to avoid.

I absolutely hate trucking around DVDs and cases when I want to watch a movie. They get scratched, misplaced, lost and never returned. Once I put all my DVDs in a 400 carosel changer that I can browse by cover art and play on any TV, you will never convince me to go back to individual DVD players. Sending DVR around the house is just icing on the cake.

Robert, one of those Sony ES changers is next on my radar.

I knew that my comments would cause some commotion.
I will agree that component is comparable to HDMI in quality for TV.
However, I challenge anyone to show an upconverting DVD player that you can buy today that works over component. That means that your old dvd's are toast. That is the kiss of death for component.
In terms of the infrastructure, you say that Cat 5/6 offers a "modicum" of future proofness. Is "modicum" another word for "illusion". This reminds me of the people who ran optical fiber around to "future proof" their house. 10 years later it sits unused.
In terms of the remotes, are you going to have one or eight? If you're in the kitchen and want to change the channel do you have to go to another room where someone else is using the remote to borrow it to change the channel?
I certainly understand the desire to simplify. To me, simplify means that my wife and kids can watch tv anywhere without me being there. This is really hard and expensive with centralized systems. Just an opinion from someone who has been there.

I knew that my comments would cause some
commotion.

I wouldn't say commotion, but refuting some of your points. Let's take a look at them:

I will agree that component is comparable to HDMI in quality for TV.

Agreed

However, I challenge anyone to show an upconverting DVD player that you can buy today that works over component. That means that your old dvd's are toast. That is the kiss of death for component.

I thought someone already posted one. Oh yeah, "My Zenith DVB-318 upscales to 1080i over component." And why are DVDs toast if they can't be upconverted? That's hogwash. The same data that was on the 480 DVD is still there. You were content for 10 years to watch them on your HD tv w/ 480p before HD-DVD and blue-ray and upconverted players. That's a little extreme to say that without an upconverting player you should throw them in the trash. I watch my DVDs from a standard progressive scan player at 480p and am perfectly content. So is my kid, watching his pixar movies.

In terms of the infrastructure, you say that Cat 5/6 offers a "modicum" of future proofness. Is "modicum" another word for "illusion". This reminds me of the people who ran optical fiber around to "future proof" their house. 10 years later it sits unused.

That's a lousy conclusion. There were never viable consumer products that used fiber so people installed them in anticipation of equipment that never existed. Not the same for Catx. Component, HDMI, S-Video, Composite, VGA...Every signal has been converted to run over Catx and I expect any others to come along will also. Plus, you have the added advantage of running TCP/IP network aware appliances.


In terms of the remotes, are you going to have one or eight? If you're in the kitchen and want to change the channel do you have to go to another room where someone else is using the remote to borrow it to change the channel?


I'm not even sure what the heck you're talking about here. I have a remote at each TV in my distributed home. The kid or wife picks up the remote and changes the channel. I don't hardly see your point here.


I certainly understand the desire to simplify. To me, simplify means that my wife and kids can watch tv anywhere without me being there. This is really hard and expensive with centralized systems. Just an opinion from someone who has been there.

Ask your 3 year old to go find his "Cars" DVD, put in the player, select video on your TV, select play on the remote, press play on the menu, etc to watch a movie. And then if he's able to accomplish all that don't complain when he gets peanut butter in your player. Or syrup on your DVD. When distribution is coupled with a higher level automation which is almost always the case, its pretty easy for the wife and kid to operate. My kid can look at a touchscreen and pick his favorite movie and it starts playing. Been doing it since he was 2 1/2.

There are certainly cases where de-centralization makes sense, but not really for the arguments you presented. I don't doubt that you have been there and done that and for you and your family it didn't work out. That's fine. But I don't see where your arguments above would be the deterring factors.

The question I have is how do you guys control the matrix switches and keep track of what sources are in use. My friend has maybe 10 TVS in his house, including his basement media room, but based on the number of people in the house he should never need more then 4 active tuners.

If you have a 4 input x 8 output matrix box how do you track what sources someone is watching? I can see the son switch his TV to source 2 and then changing the channel on source 2 which father is watching in the basement. He will then start to curse his name at the top of his lungs to change the chanel back.

Original plan from the home theather professional was just to get a tuner for every TV. However with the lifetime cost of 5 extra reciever charges and the upfront cost of all those receiver we were trying to figure a better way. He figure he can save $2500 in 4 or 5 years if he can figure a way to go to only 4 or 5 source on the 10 TVs.

I use CQC and was thinking about that for him, but he has no interest in running touch panels. I also dont have the time/enegy to support this as he live an hour away. Is there any sub $1000 method of controlling the matric swtiches that will have some method of keeping track of what sources are in use?


The professional that installed his system gave him some MX-980 Remote upstairs but I dont think they have any way to support feedback of information that could be used to see what sources are being watched.

Is there a good way to do this other then CQC (or similar home automation package) with touchpanels at each location?

I have been through this twice in my houses and have come to the conclusion that it is dumb to try to centralize everything.

1. Practically speaking, it will never work for HDMI unless all of the tv's are identical. So you're forced to use component and take a loss in quality.
2. If you're using component, your upscaling dvd player won't upscale so your old dvd's will take a major hit in quality.
3. The components and control software and remotes, etc. will cost as much or more than just buying more settops and dvd players and will be WAY more complicated and hard to use.
4. Your centralized wiring/switching is going to become obsolete. 10 years ago I ran component and ran DVI as a guarantee against future upgrades. in 10 years component won't even be available on TV's and HDMI will be replaced by something else.
5. Finally, the BIGGIE. You have to watch the same channel on all of the tv's. This is completely unacceptable. I can hear my wife now, "We have 8 friggin' HDTV's and we spent all of this money and we can't watch different channels? Are you crazy?" You're going to need 2-4 settop boxes or DVR's.

I strongly believe that it makes a lot more sense to distribute the equipment around and do some minimal sharing. I have 7 HDTV's and what I did was think long and hard about what I am really going to do in each location. I have 2 dvd players, 4 dvr's, and 1 game machine. My bathroom tv is for watching the news while we get ready in the am. It gets basic cable (including high def) period. I don't see myself playing games or watching movies in the bathroom. I share equipment on two tv's (Kitchen and Family Room) but still can watch different channels. Home theater has the latest and greatest. Etc.

Each room is optimized for its use and it's simple enough that when a guest comes over, they can watch tv without a users manual or me there to show them how.


IMHO Centralized video sounds really cool in principle but makes no sense in real life.

Upscaling DVD players are mostly a marketing ploy. If you are sending a 480 DVD signal to a TV it is getting upscaled to the native resolutio of the TV no matter what. Its at least likely that the scaler in a decent TV will do as good or better a job than that upscaling DVD player. Either way, its 480p material on the disc no matter the delivery method.

To your pont 5, huh? Of course if you have only one television tuner, you can only watch one channel. If you have only one set top box, you can watch only one channel. I can count on zero fingers the number of matrixed systems I've installed with 1 tv tuner. It doesn't happen. If you are going to the trouble of a centralized matrixed video system, you will feed it with however many sources you need. Whether that is 1 or ten cable/sat boxes.

Also, you mention having to go to another room to change the channel in a centralized system? Again, Huh? I don't know about you or anyone else, but I have a remote control at every TV. I don't know anyone that doesn't. No difference in this in a distributed system or a centralized system.

Your other point is that it costs more to do a centralized system. Yup, it does. No secret there. Again, I don't know anyone that is doing a centralized video system to save 5 bucks a month on box rental fees.

My own rack has the audio distribution to 8 zones, 8x8 component matrix, 4 cable DVRs, 1 Apple TV, 1 DVD changer (which wil go away soon) 1 single DVD player and a BluRay player. Plus several audio only sources. I have a remote control at every TV location, which is only 4 spots. Plus a 'master' remote that I can move around if I want.

None of this was done to save money. It was all done to get al the stuf, other than the displays out of sight. Okay, I do have the single disc DVD player located in my main viewing room, just for convenience. It is locally located, but is distributed to the whole house.

Either way, its 480p material on the disc no matter the delivery method.



Fact police...sorry, I'm in an ornery mood today. DVDs (pre-HD) are encoded in 480i. It was progressive scan players that gave it the 'p'.

Ok, so we've agreed that you need a bunch of cable boxes or dvr's. So there's no savings there.
You also need to run 5 cables plus 2 cat 5's per room for future proofing. That's $700 per room from my electrician.
And you need 8 high end remotes to control the switcher and sources rather than 8 simple remotes. That's a few hundred dollars per room.
Then there's the switcher and baluns and amplifiers.
And no one can name a single upscaling dvd player that you can buy today. The 318 is an anomaly that is not available today. That means, after all this money, your movies don't look as good as they would on a distributed system.
So, it's a lot more expensive for a system that's not as good. But it's centralized.

I'm glad we had this talk. ;-)

You don't 'have' to run mini-coax. Many people do because it is easier to pull that than 5 runs of standard coax. Just make sure it is solid copper center and not copper clad steel. The first is ideal for component, the second for SAT/CATV type distribution.

Spoke with a local cable guy here -- he warned about using mini-coax, mostly about over long-distances. Said 75'-100' might have loss with mini-coax. He was recommending RG-6. Also, he said check to make sure, but he thinks you need 300-ohm impedence cable for running audio. He said mini-coax is 75-ohm. I don't know anything about this.

Lastly, not sure if you saw the earlier post by another member making sure that you understand that the matrix switch won't allow you to watch multiple TV channels on different TVs from a single cable or sat box. You'll need multiple boxes as multiple sources depending on how many different channels you need to watch simultaneously throughout the home.

Yes, I'm aware of it, that's fine. I'll actually have (3) tuners in the central media cabinet. One STB, and 2 digital tuner cards (with cablecards) in the Windows Vista Media Center computer sending digital video to Xbox 360 Media Center Extenders on each HDTV. So each TV can be set to watch the cable STB, or one of the two digital tuner stations on the MCE.

If it were me and this was my new home, to each TV location at a minimum I would run a bundle of 5 mini-coax and two Cat6 cables. That will pretty much cover you whether you go component now, component w/ baluns or HDMI w/ baluns later.
I'm planning on 1 (maybe 2) bundles of the 5 mini-coax, 2 runs of CAT6 for HDMI in the future, and 1 run of CAT6 for the ethernet connection of the Xbox MCE at each HDTV location.

Figure about $0.80 cents per foot for mini-coax, $0.20 cents per foot for each CAT6. For (1) mini-coax and (3) CAT6, that comes out to $1.40 per foot. Ouch! Is there some place that sells custom bulk wiring bundles all wrapped together cheaper?

Ok, so we've agreed that you need a bunch of cable boxes or dvr's. So there's no savings there.
You also need to run 5 cables plus 2 cat 5's per room for future proofing. That's $700 per room from my electrician.
And you need 8 high end remotes to control the switcher and sources rather than 8 simple remotes. That's a few hundred dollars per room.
Then there's the switcher and baluns and amplifiers.
And no one can name a single upscaling dvd player that you can buy today. The 318 is an anomaly that is not available today. That means, after all this money, your movies don't look as good as they would on a distributed system.
So, it's a lot more expensive for a system that's not as good. But it's centralized.

I'm glad we had this talk. ;-)

$700 per room? My LV guys are working for $800 per day. Cat5e is dirt cheap. I got 5 conductor bundles of minicoax for <$200. Your estimate is not even close for me.

CQC will work with any IR remote you want. Pick the cheapest one from Walgreens if you like. Doesn't seem like you've looked into these type of software control packages much. :confused: $5 per room.

Matrix switch: my 8x8 was $168 on Ebay.

Upscaling DVD player: I don't own a single DVD. Directv has tons of HD content I can't even begin to catch up with on my DVR. I also don't think your upscaling DVD players will make a significant difference with a DVD that inherently has 480 lines of resolution. I mean, it doesn't actually add content to the DVD, right?

Hmm this isn't an effort to troll, is it?

Spoke with a local cable guy here -- he warned about using mini-coax, mostly about over long-distances. Said 75'-100' might have loss with mini-coax. He was recommending RG-6. Also, he said check to make sure, but he thinks you need 300-ohm impedence cable for running audio. He said mini-coax is 75-ohm. I don't know anything about this.


Make sure he knows what he is talking about. Most RG6 the cable guy is going to use does not have a solid-copper center conductor, so won't be good for component video. This has been discussed many times on this and other forums. You'll get tons of info from a search.

$700 per room? My LV guys are working for $800 per day. Cat5e is dirt cheap. I got 5 conductor bundles of minicoax for <$200. Your estimate is not even close for me.

CQC will work with any IR remote you want. Pick the cheapest one from Walgreens if you like. Doesn't seem like you've looked into these type of software control packages much. :confused: $5 per room.

Matrix switch: my 8x8 was $168 on Ebay.

Upscaling DVD player: I don't own a single DVD. Directv has tons of HD content I can't even begin to catch up with on my DVR. I also don't think your upscaling DVD players will make a significant difference with a DVD that inherently has 480 lines of resolution. I mean, it doesn't actually add content to the DVD, right?

Hmm this isn't an effort to troll, is it?

I'm not trolling, I just don't believe that centralizing video equipment makes sense in most cases. Check my posts.

My LV guys quote a price per drop including the wires, running them, terminating them, testing them, and if there are problems-rerunning them after the walls are up. It's never as easy as it seems. In my last house I did all of this myself so I know that there's a lot more to the job than running the wires in the walls.

Now with cqc you've added an infrared repeater for each room, 8 more wires to run back to the central setup, and you have a computer running cqc plus the support fees for cqc. You need to update this computer regularly with new versions of the operating system, cqc, antivirus, etc. Plus you have to program the whole thing. And you're not even sharing dvd players.

If you do this for fun and your time and cost is not an issue, go for it-especially if you are single. I have tried centralizing and sharing equipment and I found it expensive and way too hard to use.

I made a living doing software and have a passion for user interfaces. I've decided that TV is a basic function and if my wife or kids or babysitter can't pick up the remote and press the power button to turn on the tv and with one button change the channel, then I have failed. Also, if the "system" doesn't behave exactly as THEY (not I) expected, the users will press every button once until they get frustrated and scream, "Why can't I just watch tv?". Every year I try to make our tv system even simpler. I have 7 tv's in one house and 4 in another and my wife and kids can operate them all without a user manual and without any instruction. This is my definition of a good system.

You've obviously made your decision for your family and that's fine. Noone is saying what you did is wrong. However, you continue to litter your posts with inaccuracies in an attempt to justify your position. That's just showing sour grapes.


My LV guys quote a price per drop including the wires, running them, terminating them, testing them, and if there are problems-rerunning them after the walls are up. It's never as easy as it seems. In my last house I did all of this myself so I know that there's a lot more to the job than running the wires in the walls.

You can certainly pay an LV guy to do this work for you, but in most instances if you have the time and a few tools its more cost effective to do it yourself. The $700 per room price you quoted earlier is outrageous.


Now with cqc you've added an infrared repeater for each room, 8 more wires to run back to the central setup, and you have a computer running cqc plus the support fees for cqc. You need to update this computer regularly with new versions of the operating system, cqc, antivirus, etc. Plus you have to program the whole thing. And you're not even sharing dvd players.

Wrong, wrong and more wrong. You don't need extra wires for IR repeating. That's why you ran the Cat5 if you are using coax, and why if you are using baluns, the baluns have IR repeating built into them. As for the computer, I'm beginning to wonder how much of this you did before. On any HA system, especially a PC based one, you lock it down. You don't need to continually update it or the OS. You aren't internet surfing on it so no real need for antivirus. I haven't touched my CQC PC in three years. And of course you are sharing DVD. Once you have the infrastructure in place its trivial to add a multi-changer DVD player.


If you do this for fun and your time and cost is not an issue, go for it-especially if you are single. Well that pretty much goes without saying. You have two choices. Save money and do it yourself or pay someone to do it for you. But either way it has nothing to do with being single.


I have tried centralizing and sharing equipment and I found it expensive and way too hard to use.

And I wouldn't have it any other way.


I made a living doing software and have a passion for user interfaces. I've decided that TV is a basic function and if my wife or kids or babysitter can't pick up the remote and press the power button to turn on the tv and with one button change the channel, then I have failed. Also, if the "system" doesn't behave exactly as THEY (not I) expected, the users will press every button once until they get frustrated and scream, "Why can't I just watch tv?". Every year I try to make our tv system even simpler. I have 7 tv's in one house and 4 in another and my wife and kids can operate them all without a user manual and without any instruction. This is my definition of a good system. The definition of a good system is one that works and is easy to use. That can be accomplished centrally or distributively. You failed at centrally and chose distributively. I succeeded at centrally and wouldn't go back. Again, my family (two kids and wife) have no problem operating the system. I don't think you can take your one personal bad experience and and generally conclude that centralized equipment is a bad thing.

Might as well attend to these other innacurracies:

Ok, so we've agreed that you need a bunch of cable boxes or dvr's. So there's no savings there.

Wrong. You have 8 rooms w/ 8 TVs you need 8 boxes. I have four family members, I need 2 to 3. I save every month.


You also need to run 5 cables plus 2 cat 5's per room for future proofing. That's $700 per room from my electrician.

Already addressed.....


And you need 8 high end remotes to control the switcher and sources rather than 8 simple remotes. That's a few hundred dollars per room.
Wrong. You really need to research before talking. I use the Cable remotes that came with my DVR box. Since my wife was use to them, I bought some more of them off Craigslist for $5 each. But you can use any programmable remote from Walmart as suggested in an earlier post.


Then there's the switcher and baluns and amplifiers.

Then there's your extra DVR boxes, DVD players, etc. And tell me, can you watch youtube videos or internet content on any TV? Can you watch your DVR shows from your laptop while on travel? You're missing out on a lot.


And no one can name a single upscaling dvd player that you can buy today. The 318 is an anomaly that is not available today. That means, after all this money, your movies don't look as good as they would on a distributed system.
So, it's a lot more expensive for a system that's not as good. But it's centralized.

You do realize in the fallacy of your argument here. There are many many discussions about the benefit or lack thereof of upscaling DVD players. If you really made your entire decision on this, then again you didn't do the research. An upscaling DVD player simply takes the original 480i content on a DVD and upscales it to a higher resolution, whether 720p, 1080i, 1080p...There is no extra information added. The ONLY reason for an upscaling DVD player is if your TV has a crappy scaler. But most decent plasma/LCD tvs have scalers equivalent or better to your upscaling DVD player. Plus, ever heard of an external scaler? If you really want the best scaling, dump the upscaling DVD player and just buy an external scaler. Oh, that's right. You'd have to buy 8 of them. Good thing I would only need one.


I'm glad we had this talk. ;-)

Me too :D

Spoke with a local cable guy here -- he warned about using mini-coax, mostly about over long-distances. Said 75'-100' might have loss with mini-coax. He was recommending RG-6. Also, he said check to make sure, but he thinks you need 300-ohm impedence cable for running audio. He said mini-coax is 75-ohm. I don't know anything about this.
You might want to get a different guy. Sounds like he's stuck in the stone age of CATV distribution. You aren't running RF frequencies on the mini-coax, but baseband. As for the 300-ohm, wrong again. 75-ohm for audio is exactly what you want. And RG6 is not needed for baseband. In fact you could use RG-59 mini-coax. RG6 Quadshield is what you would use for CATV distribution but not for component.

Spoke with a local cable guy here -- he warned about using mini-coax, mostly about over long-distances. Said 75'-100' might have loss with mini-coax. He was recommending RG-6.
You can run HD over mini-coax for up to ~210 Feet.

As Robert pointed out, the local cable guy works with up to 1GHz (1000MHz). Baseband video is down in the 4-8MHz range.

I've researched this up the ying yang for the last 4 years, but mainly using a one input distribution amplifier. Now I am going to go with a matrix switch in my next house as I will have numerous inputs. Centralized is the only way to go I feel. robertmee - you are not only smart but very articulate and I agree with everything you have said. You obviously know what you are talking about and how to put things into perspective.


One more thing to consider. The used Extron's and Autopatches are not controlled via IR. They either have a faceplate for local control or RS232 serial control. So, you will need a means to control them remotely. Either an IR to RS232 adapter with the proper setup, or a primary controller that's capable of issuing serial commands. Whether that's a black box system or a PC depends on what else you anticipate controlling.

Maybe someone can enlighten me on how to control one of these switches via IR? I am planning a pair of homerun cat6 cables down from each HDTV to a matrix switcher located centrally in an equipment room (haven't bought it yet but took one of the poster's suggestions on here and have a saved search on eBay emailing me every day now when an 'Extron' comes up in a listing, looking for an 8x8). I am going to use CeLabs component/digital audio baluns plugged into a wallplate jack and IR receivers plugged into 3.5mm female wallplate jacks. I have already tested a couple Muxlab baluns ones and they work fantastic, but the CeLabs are cheaper.

I was not planning to use CQC or anything like that to control the matrix switch because I didn't realize they were controlled only by RS232 (I've been fixated on the Avatrix from Audio Authority which is controlled by IR, but now realize that buying a used matrix switch is a way better way to go for me as I can get more inputs, but more importantly, more outputs and the switch, albeit used, is a lot cheaper).

So maybe someone can explain to me how I can do this. Using the example of having a HD PVR cable box and a satellite box input into the switch, it seems that I have to first control what input on the switch is being viewed on the display and then what channel is being viewed on that input (and I do realize that any display viewing that input will see the same channel that has been chosen). Is the only way to control a matrix switch and it's inputs through the use of a software program like CQC?

CQC or the like makes it easier, but it is not the only solution....

There's a company called Celadon that makes IR to RS232 converters for various pieces of equipment, with the common Extron switches being one of them. See this thread for the discussion of that unit and the cost involved.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1077206

CQC or the like makes it easier, but it is not the only solution....

There's a company called Celadon that makes IR to RS232 converters for various pieces of equipment, with the common Extron switches being one of them. See this thread for the discussion of that unit and the cost involved.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1077206

From your posts, you appear to have had a lot of experience with the Extron switches. Can you tell me if the programming of the Matrix 100/200 is much more difficult than the later units, like the Crosspoint that use the SIS protocol (ie. the ones without the front power switch)? I am planning to use an IR remote with an IR-to-RS232 adapter controlling the switch, btw, and do realize I will have to get the IR controller to be able to issue the proper command string. So, I am wondering, the commands in the Matrix 100/200 manuals seem quite complicated. Could an IR remote even issue these types of commands?

By the way, I contacted Extron and they claim that all Crosspoints used the SIS protocol and that no Extrons smaller than 16x8 ever had dip switches on the back (both of which appears to be wrong, according to your posts). So, I sent them some pictures that I found on eBay to show them that they appear to be wrong and am waiting to hear back from them. They appear to be puzzled!

................

If it were me and this was my new home, to each TV location at a minimum I would run a bundle of 5 mini-coax and two Cat6 cables. That will pretty much cover you whether you go component now, component w/ baluns or HDMI w/ baluns later.

Robert, is this ~3 month old post (#16 in this thread) still your recommendation? I ask because I thought I saw a more recent post by you recommending 4 x cat6.

Were they different circumstances?

After much research (and help from other forum members), let me interject with a detailed explanation of what I am doing in the new home I am designing:

Total of 5 Cat5e/6 & 1 RG6 to every conceivable HDTV location (I'll probably go with Cat6 instead of Cat5e, but I hear it's more finicky to install)

These locations include all bathrooms, mudroom, laundry room, bedrooms, office, library, exercise room, walk-in closets, wine cellar, games room, guest room and workshop/garage. The living room/home theatre will be direct connect using component video cables and digital audio cable. Maybe it sounds a little crazy with all these locations (but I am addicted now to watching the Today Show from the shower while getting ready for work) but Cat5e/6 cable is cheap, only requires following some easy-to-learn rules, the walls are only going to be open once, and I will likely wire the house myself anyway (just for fun) so the labour cost is low. Also, I don't have to necessarily terminate any unused locations and can just install a blank wallplate or even just leave the cables behind the wall and note the location.

What I am doing only makes sense if you are locating most of your equipment in a central wiring closet, and having some type of audio/video matrix switch capable of switching HDTV signals. In my central equipment closet I will have one or more HD cable box PVR's, an HD aerial antenna ATSC tuner, an HD satellite tuner and a front doorbell video feed injector feeding the matrix switch. Any hard copy media, like DVD's, will be played on DVD players located locally and I don't have any video stored on hard disks except for the HD cable box PVR's. Every room that has a local source (ie DVD player, game player) will be wired back to the matrix switch so that they can be viewed anywhere in the home if need be.

Anyway from the central equipment closet to each HDTV:

2 Cat5e/6 for component video, L&R audio, IR receiver enabled using one pair of component video active baluns (CeLabs Cat5Rx and Cat5Tx baluns, which enable component video (Y, Pb, Pr) L&R audio, digital audio, IR control and gain control in one balun. You can attach them to the back of the HDTV using velcro, screw them into the wall or leave them hanging. You connect the 2-RJ45 jacks on the balun to the 2 wallplate RJ45 keystone jacks using 2 Cat5e/6 patch cables. You can use passive baluns too, which CeLabs also makes, but in some situations they don't work as well, but they are about 1/2 the price of the active. Also, as an aside, I'd only go with mini-5 component instead if you don't like the balun idea or can't afford the extra cost - about $200 per pair for active ones, but they work great. But some people are purists and want to use component video all the way. However I hear mini-5 component is hard to terminate, requires tools, and wire and plugs can be incompatible. Regular component (ie RG6) is easier to install but bulkier and you have to run 5 of them to each location and then also run an IR control cable and provide the wall jack for that. Also, I hear the maximum distance for component video cable, even if you have high quality cable, is about 200', but that's probably not a restriction for most people. But, in any event, if you might want to switch to HDMI distribution through Cat5e/6 in the future you might as well put the Cat5e/6 in and if you already have that in you might as well use the baluns. The net result of all of this is that when you are working out the price differential between 2 Cat5e/6 & baluns instead of component video make sure you realize you are running 2 cables vs 5 and that the 5 cables will require many extra keystone jacks if you use wallplates and the latter is a lot more labour intensive).

1 Cat5e/6 for IPTV distribution - HDTV's are starting to include an ethernet jack allowing one to view internet content without a computer

2 Cat5e/6 looped from HDTV location to possible keypad locations in each room and then to equipment closet. This is for a future HA/audio system using fixed wall-mounted keypads. I am using Sonos whole house audio so keypads aren't required but which means I'll likely never use these cables, but they will therefore be available at the HDTV location for some other future use if I want. Also, having the wiring already installed for wall mounted keypads is a great selling point if you move, because not everyone is going to want Sonos. I am just going to note the possible locations of these keypads by taking measurements before the drywall goes up and noting those measurements on digital pics. You can eliminate these 2 cables if this duplicates some other HA/audio wiring arrangement you have or if you are not concerned about it being a resale feature.

1 RG6 - I don't really need RG6 but it will be there in case someone happens to want a locally connected cable box for some reason (normally they will all be in the equipment closet).

The above results in one wallplate behind each HDTV with 5 Cat5e/6 keystone jacks and 1 RG6 keystone jack. (Or 3 Cat5e/6 and 1 RG6 if you eliminate the 2 Cat5e/6 cables for futureproofing the keypad audio)

1 Cat5e/6 to each telephone or directly wired internet location or wireless access point you want, but at least one to each floor. With a patch panel at the central location the wallplates can be configured for either telephone or internet anytime. I'll be using mainly WiFi and wireless house phones, so I won't really need many of these wallplates. Make sure they are run to the telephone/internet demarcation point.

Add another pair of Cat5e/6 cables from each room to the matrix switch where ever you have a local source in a room that you might want to view from elsewhere in the house. This might be a source such as a local Blu-Ray player. In this way you could stop a DVD in one room, then continue to watch it in another room without having to remove the DVD from one player and put it in another and try to find where you left off, otherwise - pretty useless as DVD players are so cheap you don't really need to distribute their output around the house. Also, you'd do your serious watching where you had your best set-up anyway, like the home theatre or living room.

The following pieces of equipment are located in the equipment room and fed into the matrix switch. The switch along with all of the equipment, is controlled via IR. (The matrix switch I am going to use, an Extron, only responds to RS232 commands so a IR-to-RS232 converter is used. But, there are matrix switches that respond to IR controls, such as the high-quality, but expensive, AVAtrix from Audio Authority.)

1) HD PVR (one or more)
2) ATSC tuner connected to the aerial HDTV antenna on the roof. Provides the highest quality HDTV signal possible, as it's uncompressedl.
3) HDTV satellite box
4) Logenex injector which carries the front doorbell video feed and is input into the HD PVR. This places the video on channel 998.

1 Cat5e/6 and/or 1 RG6 or other cable as required to each outdoor webcam from the central equipment closet (I'll have these connected to the internet as I only view these when I travel so I have no need to have them connected to the matrix switch, but you might, as does Robertmee to watch the goings on in his house. Having the front door video feed accessible at all HDTV's on channel 998 is sufficient for me.)

I won't discuss this but there are other wiring considerations such as the control wires for irrigation and blinds, some of which involves cat5e/6.

For audio I am using Sonos, which really does not require hardly any wiring except to the speaker locations from the Sonos Zoneplayers. I am however, running a second set of 14/2 audio wire from the speaker locations to the possible keypad locations so that if the system is every changed to a wall-mounted keypad system the speaker wires are already there. This gets a bit complicated, but the L/R audio output from the baluns behind each HDTV is being fed to the Sonos Zoneplayers in each room to allow one to listen to the audio through the ceilling speakers instead of the crappy TV speakers. What this means is a couple of line level audio wires are run from a wallplate behind the HDTV to the Sonos Zoneplayer location in each room. This also allows one to output the audio from an iPod, local DVD or local game player in each room through the ceiling speakers (using a source selector switch). If neither are turned on, the whole house audio system is available to be played individually or in sync in each room through a wireless handheld Sonos controller. You can even further complicate matters by adding audio-priority sensing devices to automatically switch to TV audio automatically if the TV is turned on, but now I am getting far beyond the scope of this post!

Robert, is this ~3 month old post (#16 in this thread) still your recommendation? I ask because I thought I saw a more recent post by you recommending 4 x cat6.

Were they different circumstances?

The recommendation for 4 cat6 evolved from the possibility of needing serial control and the fact some newer TVs accept internet connectivity.

The recommendation for 4 cat6 evolved from the possibility of needing serial control and the fact some newer TVs accept internet connectivity.

In your opinion, could the number of runs be reduced with a switch? I know it would reduce functional bandwidth, but how much?

I guess the point is that we're trying to futureproof. You can't have too many runs.

In your opinion, could the number of runs be reduced with a switch? I know it would reduce functional bandwidth, but how much?

I guess the point is that we're trying to futureproof. You can't have too many runs.

Not sure I follow your question? Do you mean a network switch?? If so, then no as we aren't using the Cat cables in the traditional sense of passing TCP/IP protocols. For audio/video, IR, or serial transmissions, we are really just using the cat cables as a 4 pair twisted pair multiconductor cable.

Why not go down the the local home depot and pick up some 2 boxes of RG-59 1000' each box. Run 5 RG-59 cables and 2 cat5 cables to every room. Pick up a RG-59 stripping tool and an IDEAL omniseal pro compression tool. Make sure it will do RCA connectors. At Home Depot they have compression connectors for RCA connections. Then use your cat5 cable for your ir. I believe that you can check out cablestogo.com you can pick up an 3x5 matrix for about 170. This matrix allows for toslink inputs and output as well. If you have Directv, remote has option for two other AV controls and all you would have to do is program them.

Why not go down the the local home depot and pick up some 2 boxes of RG-59 1000' each box. Run 5 RG-59 cables and 2 cat5 cables to every room. Pick up a RG-59 stripping tool and an IDEAL omniseal pro compression tool. Make sure it will do RCA connectors. At Home Depot they have compression connectors for RCA connections. Then use your cat5 cable for your ir. I believe that you can check out cablestogo.com you can pick up an 3x5 matrix for about 170. This matrix allows for toslink inputs and output as well. If you have Directv, remote has option for two other AV controls and all you would have to do is program them.

I wouldn't recommend RG-59 from HD as it is most certainly Copper-Clad steel and not suitable for component distribution. The stuff at HD and Lowes is used for traditional RF distribution (CATV or SAT) and not baseband frequencies.

Talking more in a sense of 95% copper for your RG-59 and I wouldn't recommend using Home Depot RG-59. I would use like a Belden or a CommScope brand.

Not sure I follow your question? Do you mean a network switch?? If so, then no as we aren't using the Cat cables in the traditional sense of passing TCP/IP protocols. For audio/video, IR, or serial transmissions, we are really just using the cat cables as a 4 pair twisted pair multiconductor cable.

Thanks!

I guess that 4th cat6 would be used for FW updates and upgrades, internet sources for TV/monitor, internet radio, and digital files from the PC or server, all through a single network switch.

Sorry, lost count.

I wouldn't recommend RG-59 from HD as it is most certainly Copper-Clad steel and not suitable for component distribution. The stuff at HD and Lowes is used for traditional RF distribution (CATV or SAT) and not baseband frequencies.

What about quadshield RG-6 from HD? Would that be OK for broadband (digital cable)? I'll check the package, to make sure it's copper core.

I'm installing a new run - moving the modem from the office to the basement, and just need ~30'.

What about quadshield RG-6 from HD? Would that be OK for broadband (digital cable)? I'll check the package, to make sure it's copper core.

I'm installing a new run - moving the modem from the office to the basement, and just need ~30'.

plain RG6 w/ copper clad steel is fine for traditional CATV (with or without broadband imbedded), SAT and RF distribution. It is when you are using coax (whether precision mini, RG-59 and RG-6) for baseband (component video) distribution that you should opt for the copper center conductor.

RG6 and RG59 are more about the SIZE of the coax cable. It really has nothing to do with the transmission properties. That comes into play with the center conductor, dielectric and shielding construction which can be different from one RG6 cable to the next.

This post is absolutely huge, so I may have missed it. With all of the component video talk, how is everyone dealing with HDCP? If I have a HDTV that does 1080P, then I certainly want to use digital video with HDMI for 1080P BluRay and other encoded content. Gotta use HDMI sources and a digital video matrix switcher with a IP or RS232 control system. Contrary to popular opinion HDMI 1.3 allows any number of TV models to be used in a matrix salvo. The problem comes when there is a lower resolution TV in the mix. Then you would need a digital video scaler to downscale the digital video on the output side of the matrix.

plain RG6 w/ copper clad steel is fine for traditional CATV (with or without broadband imbedded), SAT and RF distribution. It is when you are using coax (whether precision mini, RG-59 and RG-6) for baseband (component video) distribution that you should opt for the copper center conductor.

RG6 and RG59 are more about the SIZE of the coax cable. It really has nothing to do with the transmission properties. That comes into play with the center conductor, dielectric and shielding construction which can be different from one RG6 cable to the next.

Ah-haaaah.

You have a knack for explaining clearly. Thanks.

This really has been a very informative post for me.
I am based in Ireland and we may call some things slightly differently over here.

3 storey house with all equipment located on top floor, 4 sat. receiver, Xbox360, DVD player and AV receiver for home cinema.
Main TV one floor below. Connected by HDMI, 2 Cat 6, VGA, 5 Liberty RG59 and one RG6.
Most of the cables would now seen un-necessary as only using HDMI in the TV.
Other TV's on top floor and connected by RG6. The nearest TV is a 32" HD ready. Have HDMI running to this also.
The other 2 TV's are only 19" and connected by RG6. Control is by a Magic Eye.
While these TV's are likely to be changed sometime in the future, my question is what type of cable to run to them at this stage.
RG6 only gives me mono.
Would you suggest that I run 2 Cat 6 or a HDMI cable.
Given that they are wall mounted, I can not see them ever being big enough for a HD 1080P screen.
I have successfully run HDMI over Cat6 baluns to a projector on the lower ground floor so I am aware how good a pictute I can get over Cat 6.
There just seems to be little point in running HDMI to smaller TV screens, but Cat 6 baluns would give me stereo sound !

I would appreciate all your comments.


Joe

Are you sure that you only get mono audio over RG6?

I'm running 5-conductor RG6 cables (3 for component video + 2 audio) to each TV from my Impact Acoustics 3x5 matrix switch. AFAIK, the 2 audio (red/white) are stereo audio. Also, the IA matrix has an audio TOSLink jack for each output port too so I could have digital audio to each destination by runnng very inexpensive TOSLink cable to each destination.

I didn't go with the CAT6/HDMI/Balun idea because of the high cost of an HDMI matrix switch (the IA 3x5 component matrix was $180) plus the high cost of baluns. Even though CAT6 is cheap, the cost of the baluns negates the savings over Monoprice 5-conductor component cable. Mostly, the cost of the HDMI switch was the deterrent.

Are you sure that you only get mono audio over RG6?I think it is because he only has one RG6.

Yes, only one RG6 to the smaller TV's. This carries audio and picture and the TV is tuned by RF.

Are you sure that you only get mono audio over RG6?

I'm running 5-conductor RG6 cables (3 for component video + 2 audio) to each TV from my Impact Acoustics 3x5 matrix switch. AFAIK, the 2 audio (red/white) are stereo audio. Also, the IA matrix has an audio TOSLink jack for each output port too so I could have digital audio to each destination by runnng very inexpensive TOSLink cable to each destination.

I didn't go with the CAT6/HDMI/Balun idea because of the high cost of an HDMI matrix switch (the IA 3x5 component matrix was $180) plus the high cost of baluns. Even though CAT6 is cheap, the cost of the baluns negates the savings over Monoprice 5-conductor component cable. Mostly, the cost of the HDMI switch was the deterrent.

I was faced with the same decision, aside from the HDMI switch decision (as I simply won't go with HDMI for various reasons, including copy protection). I am going with a component video matrix switch (used Extron) and did a quick analysis of using component video and audio cables and an IR cable for the entire run to each room and no baluns vs or cat5e component video baluns and a pair of cat5e cables for the entire run to each each room.

When I worked out the cost of active component video baluns (CeLabs Cat5Rx/Tx) at $190 per pair per run + 2 runs of cat5e cable per room, and got about $240 per room with tax. For component video cables, I calculated 5 component video cables per room (50' runs avg), 1 IR cable, 10 connectors for the component video and 2 IR connectors and got about $140 per room. The cost of the wallplates, keystone jacks and component video patch cables to connect either the balun or the wallplate to the TV were a wash as they were pretty well the same cost in each case. So the net result was an extra cost of $100 per room or $500 (your mileage may vary slightly) but a lot less labour running cable (2 thin cables instead of 5 bulky ones and 1 thin IR one) and many fewer terminations to do (I am doing the work myself, but still). With passive component video baluns, which are about 1/2 the price of active (but are problematic in some installs) it was a wash. Running component video cables and an IR cable was about the same price as running cat5e cables and using baluns.

I thought this extra cost was worthwhile and I liked the big advantage of being able to change the audio/video transmission technology in the future to HDMI (which 2 cat5e cables can handle easily) or whatever else they come up with (assuming 2 cat5e cables can) by simply unplugging the baluns from the R45 jacks in the wall. Also, this is a much cleaner install as all I have running from the TV to the double RJ45 keystone wall jack is two thin ethernet cables. Also, I can take the bulk of the technology (baluns and component video and ethernet patch cables) with me when and if we sell the house.

I am just wondering if you arrived at the same math and what your analysis was like, if you care to share it. Thanks.

I have an update on my media center closet. I've run 4x sets of 5-RCA RG6 component cable into the closet, all going into an Impact Acoustics 3x5 Matrix Switch. I also ran two runs of CAT6 cable for future use of HDMI. Cost per run was less than $100 per run (Monoprice Premium 75' 5-RCA RG6 component A/V cable is $56 plus s/h)

The major reason I did not want to run strictly CAT6 and Baluns for HDMI, was because of the super-high cost of an HDMI matrix switch. You can get the 3x5 Impact Acoustics component A/V matrix switch for $140.

The matrix has 3 inputs which are used thusly:
1) Cable TV STB
2) XBox 360 Media Center Extender
3) Windows PC (for running our poker tournament software)

I've got three dilemmas. Actually, two dilemmas, one question:

1) How am going to source my Sony BDP-S350 Blu-Ray player as input #4? How can I cascade with another Impact Acoustics 3x5 matrix to get a 4th input? Do I really need to get an Exotron or Shinybow 8x8 matrix?

2) Kinda the same question, but for the output. How can I tie in another IA 3x5 matrix so I can get a total of 8 outputs?

I'm trying to achieve 4x inputs, 8x outputs.

3) Which remote control should I get? This media center closet is in a central part of my 2-story house, in the space under the stairs. I'm thinking of an Harmony 890, 890PRO, or 1100 RF remote control. Which one? Any better/cheaper recommendations?

Thanks for all the help. It's all coming together....!

http://media.share.ovi.com/m1/large/0650/df6559fa685c49bcb2e17f35049c7fe9.jpg

Are you really going to be happy having 8 possible viewing locations and yet only one cable box?

The XBox 360 Media Center Extender accesses two 2 tuners in my Dell XPS 420 (not shown) -- one is a digital cable card tuner, another is an analog tuner -- plus the digital cable box equals 3 total tuners.

4 of the viewing locations are for the poker rec room / bar / lounge. We usually have ESPN HD running in the background while we play cards.

I should start this be stating I am a complete newbie and know little of what I speak..

This thread has been very valuable for me. I suspect there are many folks that are trying to do a similiar set up. I very much like the options that have been presented - BUT... in light of HDMI 1.3 - Robert can recommend a set up that would include a HDMI matrix that would work and ideally is not thousands?) I am not aruging the PQ of HDMI vs. Component but feel there are folks out there that want some of the convience of 1 wire and features that seem to be LOCKED into an HDMI end to end solution.

If it helps clarify - Here is what I am trying to install...

4 locations with 5 displays

Family Room
In Place - 60" Kuro
Future - Ceiling projector (only would run 1 or the other)

Bedroom 1
In Place - 50" Kuro

Bedroom 2
In Place - Sony 1080i XBR w/ DVI input (to be replaced)

Game Room (Future)
TBD Display

Here is what I have wired to each Display location and then home runned to my AV Closet..

2 RG6
4 CAT5e
1 HDMI

Audio Distribution

Speaker wire run to 11 locations in 4 zones. All are 2 speaker Stereo set ups w/ the exception of the Family Room - which is 7.1.

I also have CAT 5e to several locations to be used for HA panels.

Here is what I think I would LIKE to have in my AVR Closet

Future - Denon 3808 for Family Room to power Kuro / Projector and 7.1 in ceiling
Future - Denon 3xxx for Bedroom 1 to power Kuro and stereo ceiling speakers
Future - Denon 2xxx for Game Room

In Place - Direct TV HD DVR (existing RF unit)
Future - Direct TV HD DVR (TDB - Additional RF unit)
Future - Blu-ray Carosel or Media Player (might stick in a Single Blu-ray player for now till I find the right solution)

In Place - Gefen 1:3 splitter (HDMI 1.3)

For now - I am running the Direct TV PVR thru the Gefen 1:3 and then to the 3 TV's that are in place. Works - *ok* in that I can watch TV and switch channels using the RF Direct TV remote. (Obviously the DVI TV does not get Audio now - but I am working on replacing that display.) I do get some annoying Audio drops a bit too often - and resolve these by changing channels and then changing back (not sure what is causing this..)

Just as Scott - I would like to be able to select an HDMI source from any of the displays. I do realize that potential collisions could occur if 2 people are accessing the same DVR/Source - but am ok w/ that - since I am bigger than the other family members.. :-)

There are several locations where I will have a local Xbox/WII/DVD for convience sake. But for the most part - I would like to centralize the Direct TV, AVR and other shareable items.

When i started - my approach was to solve this from the HA side - what I am now thinking is that I may be better off getting all the pieces in place - and then figuring out how to Control it via H/A.


Again - thank you all for a great thread!