New HD distribution via QAM tuners from Bocs? Cheap HD Modulation? [Text View]

David Baldwin

03-13-09, 03:22 AM

I'd definitely be interested in your collective opinion on HD features...

What would you consider critical optical inputs?
How many HD inputs would be optimum for a consumer setup?
How pervasive in your home setups is QAM? (Alternative is ATSC)

I'd bet everyone on this forum gets the idea of the product - so what other features might you consider cool for this kind of product?

I'd appreciate any insight anyone can provide - and I'll make sure to post beta tester offers here as well..

David Feller
dfeller@bocsco.com

David, First, Welcome to AVSForum! There is an incredible collection of AV Experts that participate on this forum. Alan Gouger and team that run AVScience do a great job!

I received my BOCS SD Extender order on Wednesday, March 11th!!! I'm in the process of getting it installed. I will write a detailed review here when I finish the installation.

In the interum, I can say that I am impressed with the quality and performance of the product so far!

Your probably wondering why it is taking me so long to install such a simple product. Well, I ran into some issues with my cable distribution infrastructure that took a while to troubleshoot. After finding and replacing a bad cable, a bad connector and bypassing my existing cable amplifier, I was able to see how well your product can distribute composite video over cable. I'm impressed!

I will be placing another order for additional remotes in the next few days.

I love that the HD Extender modules will add onto the existing SD System allowing me to leverage my initial investment. I understand that the HD extender is Component video based, and will still transmit over the standard cable infrastructure.

What is the audio interface? Optical and/or Coax audio would be great as most HD sources also have a digital audio output. How many HD channels is the system capable of having. I understand that up to 6 SD inputs are supported with 2 SD Extender Boxes. What is the possible mix of HD and SD channels? I would consider 3 HD + 3 SD channels to be sufficient for the near future, but the flexibility to do more is always better.

I have 1 HDTivo and 2 SDTivos today.

I will likely add some PC based channel for Video, Music, and Photos.

I may look add interfacing with my Honeywell home security system at some point. There is probably some nice integration that is possible between your system and home security systems and home automation systems too!

I understand that up to 12 remotes are natively supported. This should be sufficient for me. I currently have 9 TVs and 1 1080P projector in my rougly 4200 finished square feet. Only 3 or 4 of my TVs have HD Tuners today. I also have an HTPC with 2 HD Tuners that are ATSC and QAM.

How is the HD Video decoded? Do I need a ATSC/QAM decoder for my 1080P projector?

Macros on the remotes would be nice, especially a power on/off sequence.

Backlit remotes would be nice, especially for my home theater, which is pitch black.

An INPUT button on the remote would have been nice, but with the included ability to program buttons, I may do this.

Compatibility with one or more of the popular and more powerful RF remotes would be interesting. Logitech?

I'll have to look at the remote code list again, but the ability control the PS3 would be nice (XBOX360, etc) given their added media capabilities.

If you want a beta tester for the HD units, I volunteer!

Thanks,
Dave

David Baldwin

03-13-09, 03:46 AM

Hey David,

I have been very interested in something like this for quit a while. First thing That I look at is my needs and don't know if its for anyone.

For me I want to be able to stream a PVR and a HTPC and/ dvd player. For me I would rather have a blu-ray player directly connected. Most people would want there HTPC connected at 1080p, but I would mainly use it for shows that I record or Over the air.

So my needs are a way to hook up my HTPC DVI or HDMI. pvr and dvd player through component.

Right now the price is a little high when I look at the price of the ZVBOx pro, because I can get separate components from gefen(one example) and that can do 1080p. I know modulation is limited to 1080i because of the QAM. For the price its pretty high up there, for the jump back in quality.

I think the core BOCS value proposition is that it is Easy to Install, Easy to Use, Compatible with standard cable infrustructure in typical homes, and scales easily from a couple viewing locations to many for little additional cost.

If you only have two or three viewing locations, yes you may be able to find solutions that are marginally cheaper, or offer marginally higher picture quality, but for me, this is a great fit.

I'm gradually coming to the conclusion that this is the TiVO of home audio and video distribution and control. There are higher performance options out there, but this just works, and works well!

Good Luck!
Dave

David Feller

03-14-09, 12:56 AM

Hey David,

I have been very interested in something like this for quit a while. First thing That I look at is my needs and don't know if its for anyone.

For me I want to be able to stream a PVR and a HTPC and/ dvd player. For me I would rather have a blu-ray player directly connected. Most people would want there HTPC connected at 1080p, but I would mainly use it for shows that I record or Over the air.

So my needs are a way to hook up my HTPC DVI or HDMI. pvr and dvd player through component.

Right now the price is a little high when I look at the price of the ZVBOx pro, because I can get separate components from gefen(one example) and that can do 1080p. I know modulation is limited to 1080i because of the QAM. For the price its pretty high up there, for the jump back in quality.
Space2001:
I'm in exactly the same situation as you - a need to route multiple Sources (Some HD and some SD) around the home - exactly why we are going after this product space. Frankly, the better products out there I think come from a need to solve "my own problem" rather than address something that a marketing guy thinks everyone needs...

I havn't done a lot of research, but since you mentioned the ZVboxpro - (>$2K I think)... If there were a way to easily go from component to VGA then you could use their consumer version ($500 ish) in the short term. Until I launch our HD box at least :-)

David Feller

03-14-09, 01:00 AM

I think the core BOCS value proposition is that it is Easy to Install, Easy to Use, Compatible with standard cable infrustructure in typical homes, and scales easily from a couple viewing locations to many for little additional cost.

If you only have two or three viewing locations, yes you may be able to find solutions that are marginally cheaper, or offer marginally higher picture quality, but for me, this is a great fit.

I'm gradually coming to the conclusion that this is the TiVO of home audio and video distribution and control. There are higher performance options out there, but this just works, and works well!

Good Luck!
Dave
Dave:

Much thanks for the kind words. Ease of install/use is a HUGE part of this. My specialty is the product marketing/product management side and this system has easily gone through 10 major revs - mostly on the remote control. I've tried to be fanatical about button placement, intuitive usage, places for fingers to rest so you can find the right button in the dark etc.

Oddly enough, a lot of the design was at night under the covers - using the thing when I couldn't even see it. Being from Boulder, it is important to have a remote that you can work under the covers and not let the cold air in while doing the "high over your head swan move" to change channels in bed.

I'm ALWAYS open to suggestions and improvements!

meevan1

03-14-09, 10:58 PM

schult

03-15-09, 02:22 PM

space2001

03-16-09, 01:16 PM

Thanks for the reply,

I would also love to beta test this product. since I will be using multiple sources.

David Feller

03-18-09, 03:03 PM

Bocs Team,

I have been using a notch filter and a modulator to add in a security camera channel into my TV lineup. Because I have time warner digital cable, I cant use the notch on TVs that are using a digital cable box (my main tvs) b/c the notch also cuts out odd digital channel info.. so I had to split my cable into analog and digital sets, then filter, modulate and combine on the ANALOG sets only.

It is my understanding that
1) w/the BOCS system I do not loose anything on digital TV and I can accomplish what I set out to do with my Time Warner DIGITAL cable and modulate on the digital side with no loss of digital tv/hd channels and

2) I only need one BOCS system (not one unit per room).

Is this correct?

Bob
You got it exactly right -

Most cable companies avoid using the FM band and we have a patent [pending] approach as to how to utilize those bands...

Big vlue proposition is that we don't knock out anything that you care about. I qualify that by saying that every once in a while a cable company will put something temporarily there but so far I've not seen anything permanent except for a few mountain towns (long story on that one)...
In those situations, we provide a switchable "supercombiner" (Our all-in-one filter amp, network "balancer") so that you can choose from any remote control to switch the system off and get your channels back.

For anyone wanting to take a look at how we do the "special sauce special frequency thing" I've got some pretty cool animated (and narrated) slides at this link... Let me know what yall think please.
http://www.bocsco.com/www/public/presentations/bocsmyway.html

David Feller

03-18-09, 03:07 PM

BOCS Team:

I've been looking for this type of solution for years. I have come close to buying matrix switches and run HDMI or component cables to every room, but it just go too complicated for something that should be simpler.

The HD solution that BOCS has seems simple and I hope it will be out soon. Any idea on when the HD solution will be out? I am in the process of replacing a few TV's and if this solution needs a digital tuner to work, that might change my purchase decision.

Will the HD version have three inputs also? If I were to use 2 systems in order to get more than 3 inputs, can they work together and could I mix and match a SD and HD system? Right now I have 2 modulated cameras in the house, 2 HD DVR's and a HTPC with all my DVD's.

I would be happy to help beta test this, I am less interested in the remote layout (but need discrete codes) as I will most likely program my existing remotes and use the IR system that I have installed.

Chris
I'll try to get a picture of the HD system posted here so it is a little more clear - but basically the current SD system acts as a "Base system" and then you add as many HD modules as you need for your current setup. Each HD module you add effectively replaces one SD channel.
Frequency allocation will get a little tricky after the first three channels though.

Our first system (the one in the lab now) is a QAM system but we are working toward a standard ATSC system as well (no release date on the ATSC)

Also would like to make sure everyone understands, there are two hurdles to releasing the HD system - funding (we are in the middle of a B round of financing now) and productization of the product. It most definitely works, and we are targeting Q3 but stay tuned for more information as the hurdles are crossed and we get closer.

Erik Garci

03-19-09, 11:42 AM

I havn't done a lot of research, but since you mentioned the ZVboxpro - (>$2K I think)... If there were a way to easily go from component to VGA then you could use their consumer version ($500 ish) in the short term. Until I launch our HD box at least :-)
Even if you convert from component to VGA, the only way to get audio into the $500 ZvBox is to use USB audio from the PC that it is connected to.

ZeeVee recently announced the $999 ZvBoxPLUS (ZV-150) that will have inputs for component video and coaxial/optical digital audio (but not for analog audio).

Here is a picture: zvbooth-dsc_3569-800px.jpg (http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadgethd.com/media/2009/01/zvbooth-dsc_3569-800px.jpg)

Sailn

03-19-09, 01:00 PM

Dave:

Much thanks for the kind words. Ease of install/use is a HUGE part of this. My specialty is the product marketing/product management side and this system has easily gone through 10 major revs - mostly on the remote control. I've tried to be fanatical about button placement, intuitive usage, places for fingers to rest so you can find the right button in the dark etc.

Oddly enough, a lot of the design was at night under the covers - using the thing when I couldn't even see it. Being from Boulder, it is important to have a remote that you can work under the covers and not let the cold air in while doing the "high over your head swan move" to change channels in bed.

I'm ALWAYS open to suggestions and improvements!

Dave, I am not so sure about that. After a very long talk with zeevee, it seems that the consumer box has to be connected to a computer. One of the USB cables tells the zv box to start modulating, and the other one is for audio. If we could determine what is actually sent to the zv box, it should be easy to convert this to a stand alone box. Another thought is to use a haupauge hd pvr and a fast pc, but at that point you are pretty close to the cost of the pro box and have to deal with a PC.

Erik Garci

03-19-09, 02:56 PM

One of the USB cables tells the zv box to start modulating, and the other one is for audio.
The ZvBox uses only one USB cable.
If we could determine what is actually sent to the zv box, it should be easy to convert this to a stand alone box.
Or you could just wait for the ZvBoxPLUS.

David Baldwin

03-20-09, 09:31 PM

BOCS Extender Review by David Baldwin

About the author: I consider myself to be a home theater enthusiast. I have loved to tinker with electronics and computers as long as I can remember. This interest led me to pursue a degree in electrical engineering and a career with a leading semiconductor manufacturer. I am tolerated by my lovely wife, son, and daughter. I also enjoy offroading, golf, and most sports.

When I began looking for a whole home audio and video distribution system, I had a few key objectives in mind.

The first objective was to be able to watch Tivo’d shows in our exercise room. My wife and I are pretty busy between our careers and our kids activities and don’t get as much time as we would like to watch TV. Up until now, we only had basic cable available there. It seemed as if there was never anything on worth watching when we made some time to exercise, but we had loads of shows on the Tivo’s that we never got around to watching and couldn’t watch in the gym.

The next objective was to simplify our system to make it easier for everyone to use. This included grandparents, babysitters, even our housekeeper. Nearly every TV in the house had a different remote control and miscellaneous complexities that caused nearly everyone to have some problems, or create some new problems for me to figure out. Can you spell time sync?

The third major objective was to add functionality without increasing and if possible to decrease our associated monthly costs. The thought of adding a 4th Tivo in the exercise room was troubling me. On top of that, I really had no convenient place to put the box in our exercise room, which led to a side effect of the BOCS system that my wife is thrilled about. More on that later…

The final major objective was to choose a system that would allow for a reasonable level of expansion including HD (High Definition) distribution at some point in the future. Assuming that most or all AV (Audio/Video) sources will transition to HD in the future, I wanted a system that would support both SD (Standard Definition) and HD sources.

As you undoubtedly deduced from the title, I at least tried on the Extender SD product from BOCS, a company based in Boulder, Colorado. www.bocsco.com Read on to see how the system held up to my evaluation…

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_11_0428.jpg

BOCS has agreements in place with a large network of regional and internet electronics resellers and is rapidly expanding. I’m more technical than most, so I opted for purchasing over the internet and installing the system on my own to save some money. If you prefer to have someone else install the product for you, contact your local Home Theater Installer and ask for quote.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_11_0385.jpg

BOCS is currently offering an Introductory Starter Kit on their web-site for just $299 and includes the main extender box, along with a special cable combiner (opposite of a splitter), a Remote that is both IR and RF capable, and a comprehensive wiring pack that even includes a tool to trace your existing cable wires back to you central cable splitter. This is a great deal, because the suggested retail price for the kit is $499 and competitors’ products are less integrated, therefore more complex, and also more expensive.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_11_0389.jpg

This basic kit provides everything you need to distribute up to three audio and or video sources throughout your entire home via your existing cable system. This system also continues to distribute your existing cable television signals throughout the house. You only need to add additional remotes at TV locations were you want to control the remote AV sources. The remotes have a suggested resale price of $49, but I found them from major internet resellers for less. They even make an RF extender product that will increase the range of your remotes in larger homes.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_11_0413.jpg

Executive review for those not interested in all the “Techy Details”:

We are having a great experience with this product in our home. The product works as advertised. The product is well documented on BOCS’ website. The sales and support staff is knowledgeable and very helpful. Order placement was relatively straightforward. My order did have a minor delay, but BOCS made up for it by paying the shipping costs and throwing in a free remote! Who does that anymore???

I was impressed with the packaging of the product. It was double boxed with plenty of bubble wrap, peanuts, and foam and even had all edges of the outer carton well taped. The quick installation documentation was printed clearly on nice glossy paper and the full manual is included on a CD-ROM, which should save a few trees. The product itself was impressively constructed. It has a solid metal case, with rubber feet, and quality connectors and cables. The remote is impressive, with logical button layout and well placed impressions in the back so that it doesn’t slip out of your hand.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_11_0381.jpg

The installation procedures were well documented and it was relatively straightforward for me to install. If you don’t feel comfortable changing a few connections at your main cable splitter, connecting cable boxes and such, or programming universal remotes, you should probably call BOCS or your local AV Installer before making the purchase.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_11_0383.jpg

The product operation really blows me away. The picture and sound quality is very clear throughout my entire home. It is very easy to use and will be in my home for a long time to come!

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_16_0444.jpg

BOCS demonstrated their HD expanders to this system at the 2009 Consumer Electronics Show. This unit will be an add-on module to enable a HD input that accepts component video that most HD sources have outputs for. BOCS is currently working on their plans to release the HD expander product later this year. I’ll be among the first in line to upgrade my system!!!

This system will succeed in meeting all of my major objectives when the HD expander is released and works to my satisfaction!!!

Read on for all the “Techy Details”:

I don’t have anything else to add in regards to the order placement and packaging other than some photos.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_11_0418.jpg

The installation turned out to be a little more difficult than I originally anticipated, but not because of the BOCS system, but rather I had two bad RG6 coax cables/connectors and an issue with my current cable distribution amplifier not working in conjunction with the included BOCS Supercombiner. The crazy combination of these multiple issues led me through a confusing debug path into the wee hours of the morning.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_16_0463.jpg

After running in circles for a while, I finally set up a 17” LCD TV, a single cable box, and the extender product right next to my distribution panel. I quickly discovered and replaced the bad cable and then through further analysis bypassed my existing cable distribution amp and found that the Supercombiner’s integrated amplifier actually performed better and was able to drive all of my TV outputs very well. One final problem made it easy to identify a bad RG6 F-connector that I promptly replaced.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_16_0465.jpg

With everything working at the distribution panel, it was time to go back to the family room, where my HDTivo and 52”LCD are located. After cranking up the amplifier gain with a few button presses on the remote, and programming the remote for my equipment, everything was working great except that I couldn’t get the Live TV button to work with my HDTivo. After trying all of the different Tivo codes and having the same issue for every one of them, I was getting ready to contact BOCS, when I came across the ability to learn A/V source codes into the extender. With just a few button presses, I taught the extender the LiveTV code from my Tivo remote and all was fixed!!! I am really impressed with the remote and the extender’s control flexibility.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_16_0446.jpg

With this setup working, I pulled my wife’s SDTivo (Series2) out of the master bedroom (without her knowing) and set it up in the family room. I programmed a second remote in the master bedroom to work with the 32” LCD TV. I had to program the Live TV code into the extender again for the second input. I ran into an issue trying to run the RF output from the first Tivo into the RF input of the second Tivo as it shows on the instructions. I tried to use the local TV output to the second Tivo, but that didn’t work either. I ended up using a standard cable splitter to drive the RF input on each Tivo from the STB Out connector on the extender and then everything began working great.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_16_0447.jpg

OK, now I was feeling really impressed with the functionality and the picture quality and was ready to move the whole setup down to my Home Theater equipment rack and add the third Tivo, also a Series 2 SD Tivo, from my Game Room as my 3rd AV input. This was graduation for the BOCS Extender product as far as I was concerned. I wasn’t about to reorganize and rewire my entire AV Rack unless I knew this system was a keeper!

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_16_0452.jpg

I connected everything up the same as I had done with the first 2 Tivos upstairs. I programmed the LiveTV button again into the extender. I used a larger splitter to handle the 3rd Tivo box as I did when adding the second box. Everything just worked, until…

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/2009_03_16_0453.jpg

Ladies and gentlemen, if something is going to go wrong, it’s going to be when your skeptical wife is asking you to show her how to watch her favorite show in the Master Bedroom before she goes to bed. When I moved the components from the Family Room down another level to the Home Theater and placed it in a rack full of equipment on the complete opposite corner of my 4200square foot home, the remote control operation from the Master Bedroom became intermittent. My wife stopped short of demanding that “her” Tivo be immediately returned to its original location.

After reassuring my wife that this problem was easily resolved, I quickly placed an order for an RF Repeater along several more remotes to complete my SD installation. The repeater was easily added to the system and resolved the control issue from the Master Bedroom. See the diagram below for my complete system block diagram.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp263/DLBZONE/BOCS%20Review/AVDistributionBlockDiagram-1.jpg

Additional Notes:

This system would make it really easy to integrate a Windows Media Center computer in a SD resolution mode using a video card with composite video out today and should support HD video when the HD expander becomes available with a video card supporting component video output.

This system would also make it very easy to add CCTV (Closed Circuit Television) system (Video Security). Someone rings the doorbell and you hit one button on the remote from any TV and you are instantly looking at the CCTV video feed.

There are some other great Ideas on the BOCS website including integration of video and music from a Sony 400 Disc DVD/CD changer or even an Apple IPOD.

You should even be able to distribute Blu-Ray via Component Video output when the new HD expander becomes available. I have a Sony Playstation 3 with an IR Remote add-on and look forward to experimenting with its ability to serve media over BOCS.

Based on a recommendation from BOCS’ website, with three Tivo’s in my home, I assigned a Tivo to my wife, one to my kids, and the final Tivo to myself. This will make it even easier for the family to manage and watch our favorite content from anywhere in the house without conflicts.

David Feller

03-27-09, 02:12 PM

Dave:

Great information here - a few things I hadn't thought of as well.

I actually expanded to use two Xtenders in my home (I needed more than 3 inputs) - the remotes are set up so that you can use the "Shift" key to access the second set of three channels (Shift-Red etc)... I've got a media center hooked up as well, but ran across a really great stand alone internet connected media player as well and decided to add the second system to accomodate that and a quad camera input for home security...

If you are interested, the media player can be found at http://www.amperordirect.com/pc//audiovideo-HDX_1000.html
Turns out it is one of the few that plays iso, windows media center recordings, and pretty much any format seamlessly. It also has some way to download ********** files directly although I havn't tackled it yet... New cool inputs are always a great add to a system like yours.

And - I started a "professional Blog" to start capturing items like this and give some more detailed installation tips and tricks -

I invite everyone to stop by and pose questions that I can answer for the customer base - sometimes it is difficult to get the right inspiration without experts like this forum putting me to the test.

www.myXtender.com/wholehome is the BLOG...

Thanks again
David Feller

David Feller

03-28-09, 12:53 AM

David Baldwin

04-01-09, 12:48 AM

David Baldwin

04-01-09, 12:53 AM

Hey Dave:

Reading through your Xtender review again, I can't help but notice a couple of things:

1) You put a remote on top of Xtender next to my remote when you took a picture and a very strange coincidence - I used that same remote to build our alpha units (See my blog for pictures www.myXtender.com/wholehome ) - you unknowingly were showing the whole BOCS history in that one picture

2) In your distribution cabinet, you have a whole bunch of the "crimp style" F connectors... We switched everything over to the weathertight press/squeeze connectors and our testing showed up to a 1.5dB improvement in loss for EACH connector we swapped to the better style. The tools are about $30 at Home Depot and a little "bottle" of 50 of the connectors runs another $30ish but in my humble opinion, it would be well worth an hour on your next free weekend to replace those babies.

Good luck.
David Feller

David,

That other remote is the standard Armstrong Cable remote that they distribute with the Motorola and Pace HD-PVRs in my area. I am not particularly fond of it.

I had switched most of the connectors to the compression type, but yes, there are many that are still the crimp style. Based on your advice, I will change the rest of these connectors out. I'm suprised to hear that it makes such a big difference.

Thank you,
Dave

space2001

04-01-09, 12:48 PM

David Baldwin

04-02-09, 12:20 AM

quick question The bocs media hub, how many channels can I have with it. for example I will be watching the hockey game and my wife wants to watch a dvd upstairs, can I do this.

There are 3 inputs, so the question can you watch 3 of those input at the same time on 3 different tvs/

Also the new HD xtender, since you said its a addon, what input will it have. Component, hopfully HDMI and how many input will this have.

Will there be a standalone HD xtender, for me I am only interested in HD. I want to hook up a PVR, PS3, and HTPC.
if not hopefully there will be some kind of deal for people wanting to only buy hd but have to buy the standard one.

Thanks.

Yes, each of the 3 sources are modulated onto 3 different cable channels, so any TV in the house can tune to any of the 3 cable channels. Any of the remotes can control any of the 3 sources. Therefore, 3 different TVs can be watching 3 different sources at the same time. Or you can tune multiple TVs to the same source if you wish, think whole home audio through your TVs, or a large football party where you have the same game on multiple TVs.

When the HD Xtender Modules are productized and released, as I understand it, they will be an add-on module with component video input. I haven't heard what format the audio input will be. Each module will replace one of the Hubs 3 source/control channels. I am not clear on the limitations regarding the number of HD sources that are possible. It is currently possible to add a second hub to enable 6 SD sources.

It is also unclear what HD modulation formats will be supported, but I would think QAM (Quadrature-Amplitude-Modulation) is a must as that is how HD Cable is broadcast. ATSC is used for OTA (Over-The-Air) broadcasts, which some non-cable subscribers may prefer if they want to receive HDTV with their rabbit ears or home antenna in addition to their other sources. The challenge is that many HDTVs let you tune either QAM or ATSC, but not both in the same setup as that would require two independant RF inputs to the HDTV.

The reason that it won't have HDMI input is related to HDCP (high-definition-content-protection) and related issues. I spent some time over the last few weeks watching broadcast 1080i HD content from my HDTiVo via HDMI and then component on my 1080P projector on a 110" diagonal screen and I'm not sure I could see any difference and that is across a 25' component cable run. With the HD Xtender Module, you only have component analog for a few feet and then the Xtender Module converts the video back to digital MPEG2 Transport Stream and modulates the signal onto the cable channel for distribution through the home. The quality of the video will come down to the quality of the MPEG2 Encoder that is used. Once it's digital again, there is no further quality degredation in the distribution of the digital signal.

At one time, I thought I would only want HD, but actually, of my 10 displays, including my projector, only 3 of them have integrated HD Tuners. Therefore, I can't demodulate the HD signal on the other 7 displays unless I add an external HD Tuner box. Of the 7 displays without integrated HD tuners, I think 2 are capable of displaying 1080p video with an external tuner, and 3 more have component and VGA inputs and may or may not be able to handle higher than 480i/p via an external HD Tuner, I have 1 old 27" that only accepts NTSC video and my projector doesn't have an integrated tuner at all and will always require an external tuner. So, if I want to watch my source material on the other 7 TVs, I need SD sources also. Conveniently, my HDTiVO, like most other cable PVRs simultaneously outputs HD on Component Video and SD on Composite video, so I will be able to access the PVR programming on all TVs by using 2 channels on the Hub. The HDTVs will use the HD Source and the SDTVs will use the SD Source. This will of course make me want to add a 2nd hub when I add the HD Xtender modules!

As far as a deal, the HD capability is almost a complete superset of the SD Xtender. It will utilize all the same IR/RF control features that are in the current hub and remotes. So you need all the pieces for it to work. If they did make an HD only Hub, it would probably cost about $200/source to the consumer to add the MPEG2 encoder and QAM/ATSC modulator hardware. This makes the entry level HD system around $1000 and limits peoples ability to scale the system to meet their changing needs over time.

For about $500-$600, I have a full 3 source, 8 remote SD system now that works great! I am certain that there is NO other way to acheive what this system accomplishes in my home for this amount of money!!!

I suspect that the HD Xtender modules will be about $200 per source to add and I need 2 or 3. I want to add another Hub, hopefully I can still get it at the current intro rate of $299. I'll have $1200-$1500 into the whole system by the time I'm done and if the HD Xtender works as well as the CES demo I'll be extremely satisfied! Remember that this system didn't require me to pull any additional cables anywhere. It also added a new universal IR/RF remote to every TV in the house completely replacing all of my other remotes with the exception of my theater, where the BOCS remote doesn't quite support enough devices or have all the features that I prefer to have in that room. The remote does just fine with my TVs, receivers, DVD players and such in other rooms of the house though.

Maybe I'll update my system diagram in my review to show my future system if I get a chance.

This past weekend, we had 3 other couples over to the house with a total of 10 kids. My wife was so happy that she could tune the same music on the family room and kitchen TVs early in the evening.

At 7pm the BU vs. Ohio State hockey game came on and one of the guests was a BU alumni. In fact she came downstairs and asked me to come turn it on for her, and I was able to change the source input currently driving the TV in the kitchen to the hockey game while standing downstairs at the bar using the remote in the bar area without having to go up to the kitchen and with just a couple button pushes. Her husband literaly said "No Way! That's impossible!" and then made me spend the next 20 minutes telling him how it works!!! :)

At 8pm the Pitt basketball game came on and the men went back and forth between the Theater and the bar. Both were tuned to the HDTiVo. The projector locally in pristine HD on 110" screen and SD to the bar TV, but it is hard to tell much of a difference on a 27" LCD from more than a few feet away.

The ladies watched the pitt game in full HD via the integrated TV tuner on the 52" LCD in the family room using the QAM feed from the cable company since it was on CBS. We get the major networks in HD over the standard cable feed on 93-x.

I find myself walking all over the house now, pausing the TiVo in one room and starting it back up in the next, especially for spending 30 minutes on the treadmill or getting the kids to move from one room to another without a full scale whining session breaking out.

My family is just getting used to this. My 6 year old son wanted me to record the Penn State basketball game that started at 9pm last night and I was in my office working. I switched over my 32" 1080P LCD that doubles as my computer monitor (Nice!), pressed Red for my HDTiVo and scheduled the recording. All of a sudden he started whining about not wanting it recorded in my office, but on the family room TV, not realizing yet that he can now record anything from any TV and watch it on any other TV whenever he wants!

David Baldwin

04-13-09, 08:48 AM

David,

I had switched most of the connectors to the compression type, but yes, there are many that are still the crimp style. Based on your advice, I will change the rest of these connectors out. I'm suprised to hear that it makes such a big difference.

Thank you,
Dave

Turns out that only 4 connectors in the main panel were the crimp style and the rest were already compression style connectors. I changed the remaining 4 connectors out just in case.

jjangell

04-13-09, 02:22 PM

David Baldwin

04-13-09, 03:29 PM

THis is specifically what I am looking for...HOOOOOORAY.

BTW, saw an add for it onteh bottom right corner of the daily email from Buy.com.

One question re HD Upgrade...Will I still be utilizing the RG 6 cabling that I have run through thte house for HD or will I need to run HDMI cables throughtou the house?

Also, I am a bit confused on teh necessary location of the Tivos (in my case ReplayTVs) Should I relocate these adjacent to my Distribution panel in the garage?

Yes, the HD Module will also utilize the RG6 cable according to information I received from David Feller and their technical support hotline. That said, if you are building a new home, I recommend addtional wiring to give you flexibility. Lot of recommedations in other posts on this site. It is a personal decision on what is necessary and what is overkill.

The video sources don't have to be at the panel, but do need to be local to the BOCs Xtender Hub, wherever you choose to put it. In my case, I originally set them up in my family room and then moved them to the rack in my theater room to get rid of the clutter in the family room. Big WAF (Wife Approval Factor)! If you look at the diagram I posted in my review, it should be pretty straightforward. You can also download the installation manual from their website.

jjangell

04-13-09, 03:37 PM

Yes, the HD Module will also utilize the RG6 cable according to information I received from David Feller and their technical support hotline. That said, if you are building a new home, I recommend addtional wiring to give you flexibility. Lot of recommedations in other posts on this site. It is a personal decision on what is necessary and what is overkill.

The video sources don't have to be at the panel, but do need to be local to the BOCs Xtender Hub, wherever you choose to put it. In my case, I originally set them up in my family room and then moved them to the rack in my theater room to get rid of the clutter in the family room. Big WAF (Wife Approval Factor)! If you look at the diagram I posted in my review, it should be pretty straightforward. You can also download the installation manual from their website.

WOW...Even more compelling. I see that you took the plunge and bought an SD System. Any idea onthe upgrade path?

Also, are you limited to 3 inputs? I read something on the other Davids post (from Boc) that he has more than three inputs.

If I want to plug my HTPC into the device do I simply buy a card that has Composite out and utilize that to hook top the BOC? What about audio? I was thinking I would stream my Itunes selection from wither the HTPC or possibly from a NAS device I have on my network (thoughts on how to utilize a NAS Device? - It would reduce the need and therefore power cunsumption of the HTPC - Guessing I would have to add Popcorn Hour or something like that to it)

Last question...The remotes are RF...Yes?

With regard to wiring...I wish I was building a new house...However I did remodel a few years ago and ran multiple drops of RG6 and Cat 6 to every place I thought I would want tv or internet.

NFLnut

04-14-09, 12:49 AM

Here's a system which looks very promising, and apparently is featured in a custom home installation in this month's Electronic House mag. You may also utilize cable cards for distribution. You may send multiple HD streams via Cat5e.

http://www.savantav.com/products.php?navigationitem=0&item=1

I couldn't find a price -- it's not a DIY product, and it will only be available via local custom installers. However, it will be more expensive than $1000.

NFLnut

04-14-09, 01:40 AM

You got it exactly right -

Most cable companies avoid using the FM band and we have a patent [pending] approach as to how to utilize those bands...

Big vlue proposition is that we don't knock out anything that you care about. I qualify that by saying that every once in a while a cable company will put something temporarily there but so far I've not seen anything permanent except for a few mountain towns (long story on that one)...
In those situations, we provide a switchable "supercombiner" (Our all-in-one filter amp, network "balancer") so that you can choose from any remote control to switch the system off and get your channels back.

For anyone wanting to take a look at how we do the "special sauce special frequency thing" I've got some pretty cool animated (and narrated) slides at this link... Let me know what yall think please.
http://www.bocsco.com/www/public/presentations/bocsmyway.html

David ..

Add me to the list of potential Beta testers.

I am (was?) about to start a huge retro-cable of my 16 year old home with component/MHR cable and some fairly expensive matrix switchers. This will be some pretty destructive, expensive work once it is done just in placing cables in walls, and the materials and labor costs. I was going to be placing about 3 HD and 6 SD sources plus a security camera network, an HTPC, and a networked audio system to 7 displays/zones .. four of which are HD .. into the system (and the other 3 will be replaced at some point).

It sounds like your product would save me a lot of frustration with contractors, would improve WAF for my high tech twitch, and of course would save me lots of money!

thomasl

04-18-09, 10:37 AM

BOCS Extender Review by David Baldwin

David, thanks for this detailed review of their SD product. I too have been researching/looking into the possibilities of distributing my HD TIVO content to other tvs in the house. We currently have a Channel Plus 3025 system that we've used for over 6 years now to distribute the composite outs of the TIVO (first, the Series 2, now the HD one) to our other non-home theater tvs - all of which are still old analog SD. But I would like to upgrade them to HDTVs and of course, it would then be nice to get HD out from the HD TIVO to them. It sounds like Bocs HD product may be worth looking into as a replacement for the Channel Plus set up.

cheers,

--tom

howardch99

04-27-09, 11:23 PM

Hello All

We have done a interview session with David. He has went through the product introduction, benefits, installation and the future of the BOCS xtender. You can see the notes from the interview at HERE (http://learnhd.blogspot.com/2009/04/interview-with-david.html).

Don't miss the article if you are interested in this wholehome content distribution device (http://www.amperordirect.com/pc/c-audio-video/bocs-mediahub-offer01.html).

David Feller

05-14-09, 06:12 PM

Hey yall,

I've been privileged to get a large number of great product suggestions from this group. Truly, thanks to everyone for the insight you have given - it will only make the next generation product better.

I wanted to share a special that is going on - nothing to buy - we are having a drawing for a free gadget of your choice -
Either:
- An Xtender - Whole home distribution and control of your favorite sources (See the reviews in this forum - search on BOCS Xtender)
OR
- An HDX1000 - This is the latest in connected media players - pretty much an format movie - online capabilities etc. check it all out on the facebook portal we have set up -

And be sure to enter the drawing!!!

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Xtender/87800035343

Thanks again - David Feller

cabldawg

05-15-09, 09:22 AM

Is it just me, or does this product seem to be reinventing the wheel?

With Vista Media Center and the XBox 360 as an extender you already have the functionality of multiple sources.....live tv, recorded tv, movies, music, radio, netflix, home video library, and a picture library.

With the BOCS system I see that I can connect up to 3 sources and tune into those sources on any connected tv on 1 of the 3 assigned channels. Now that puts t to where I can have 1 assigned channel playing I am Legend for instance, and then all of the tv's on the system could then view that movie. If I want to view something else I then have to choose another modulated channel.

I just don't see this system really taking off. It seems to be a nice product, and may have a place in some homes, but I personally believe this product is about 5 years too late.

meevan1

05-16-09, 03:16 PM

miamicanes

05-16-09, 09:00 PM

I'm not sure about the engineering or economics, but if someone could get something like this to work, I'd be DELIGHTED and buy one tomorrow. As far as I know, nothing like it exists as a commercial product... but I make a point of suggesting it to everyone I meet in the hope that someone might eventually be interested enough to evaluate it as a possibility.

The basic idea:

1. Take the raw HD Y, Pb, and Pr, the raw Y & UV s-video, and analog stereo output from a HD satellite box.

2. Modulate the signals onto FM carriers of different frequencies, and inject them all into a coax cable dedicated to their exclusive use. Like, say, the old TV cable buried inside the wall that hasn't been used since the day the installer came from DirecTV or Dish Network.

3. While you're at it, take the s-video & audio signals, and modulate them onto an old-fashioned NTSC signal on chanel 3. Accompanied by a magenta screen with test tone modulated onto channel 4.

4. Connect the remaining TVs in your house to that same cable in one of two ways:

a) with a demodulator box that turns the signals back into component video, s-video, and analog stereo

b) directly, using the TV's old & obsolete NTSC tuner.

Target market:

* People who live alone and have the whole house to themselves. For this market, having the same video source everywhere in the house is a feature, because it means they can watch whatever's recorded by the DVR in their computer room or in bed. They can ditch the extra satellite boxes, and the $5/month savings from each one will pay for the system in less than a year.

* People who have boxes throughout the house, but want to be able to watch the same show on TVs in adjacent rooms without having the TV in one room be up to 10 seconds out of sync with the TV in the other room. $500+ is a major purchase that requires thought and negotiation. $100 is cheap enough to buy just because it looks like it might be handy.

* The same people in the second group probably still have a few TVs elsewhere in the house that really don't get used often enough to justify spending $5/month on boxes for them, and a few more that would be prime candidates for box elimination if something like this existed.

The key theme: oldschool channel 3/4 modulators were cheap, because they were dealing with analog signals from start to finish, and did little more than modulate 3 baseband signals (luma, chroma, and mono audio) onto a FM carrier. This idea takes the same general theme, and uses it to make whole-house distribution of a single HD channel (to both HD and non-HD TVs elsewhere) cheap, viable, and no more expensive than what it would cost to try doing component-over-cat5... while eliminating the need for the new cat5 in the first place :-)

Q. Why component, s-video, and analog stereo? Why not composite video, or SPDIF?

A. With component for HD, s-video for quality NTSC, and channel 3 for scenarios where quality is irrelevant, I think all the bases have been adequately covered for the overwhelming majority of likely users. If there's someone, somewhere, who simply MUST have "real" composite video and can't use s-video, they can buy a box to convert s-video input to composite output. As for SPDIF, I contemplated it, then concluded that it wasn't important enough to justify the cost. If, somehow, it could be added without increasing the ultimate retail cost of a demodulator box by more than $5, sure... add it. Let's be honest, though... besides the big TV in the living room, how many TVs do you even OWN that can take SPDIF audio input? And if, by some miracle it can... is it coax or Toslink? If it were the wrong format (flip a coin... 50-50 odds), is it something you want badly enough to actually go out and spend another $40+ buying a Coax-Toslink converter to have? I didn't think so.

Q. Why can't it share the cable?

A. Cost. Give it its own cable, and its designers don't have to worry about not degrading or interfering with other signals sharing the cable. As a practical matter, if you have satellite TV, the in-wall TV wiring that came with your house is currently useless. Thus, if you have that currently-useless cable in the wall, this product makes it trivially cheap to repurpose it to distribute the HD video from your DVR throughout the house.

Example use case:

Joe Sixpack buys the starter kit at Wal Mart for $129 (allegedly on sale from $149, real target price after the initial rollout is $99). It includes a modulator and demodulator.

Joe connects his HD-DVR's component video, s-video, and analog stereo outputs to the modulator. Cables not included, because there's a price point to satisfy... and because he almost certainly got the cables for free from DirecTV anyway.

Joe removes the 6 foot coax cable from the envelope after seeing the big warning: DO NOT connect modulator to any cable with existing satellite, over the air, or cable signal on it! Just in case he ignores the warning, there's a normally-closed relay inside the modulator. If he connects it to a coax that's connected to a satellite box elsewhere in the house, the DC voltage injected into it to power the multiswitch, LNB, and/or handle polarity selection will energize the relay and physically disconnect the modulator from whatever's on the other end of that coax cable. For good measure (and some cheap laughs from the engineers), there's also a piezo buzzer inside that's powered by the same satellite-system-supplied DC so it will make a noise and hopefully scare the idiot badly enough to disconnect it right away.

Joe plugs in the modulator, then grabs the demodulator & heads upstairs to the master bedroom.

In the master bedroom, Joe first connects the TV to the previously unused cable jack on the wall, and tunes to NTSC chanel 4. If the modulator downstairs is working, he'll see a magenta screen and hear a tone. He then tunes to NTSC channel 3. If he doesn't see whatever's playing on the TV downstairs, it means he screwed up the connections between the TV and modulator. Otherwise, he unscrews the coax from the TV, and connects it to the demodulator box. He then connects the TV's video input jacks (either component video, if it's HD, or s-video if it's not) and stereo jacks to the demodulator box. Voila! HD in the bedroom.

Joe pauses for a moment to wonder how he's supposed to change the channel, since the DVR is downstairs. Then, he remembers the handy advice in the manual: buy a RF-capable remote for his DirecTV HR21 on eBay for $20 (with a warning that non-RF remotes look the same from the outside, but lack the rf transmitter).

Joe then heads into the guest bedroom. There's a 13" TV that's basically been a paperweight and ornament for the past few years, because it wasn't worth paying the thieves at DirecTV yet another $5/month just to have a TV that might get used 3 times per year... if that. He connects it to the unused coax jack hidden behind the bed, turns the TV to channel 3, notes that it works, turns off the TV, and it goes back to sitting more or less unused for a few more years.

A few weeks later, Best Buy has a sale on 32" HDTVs. Joe buys one, mounts it to the wall over his computer desk, buys another demodulator for $49 from Wal Mart, and uses it to connect his computer room's new TV to the in-wall cable just like he did in the master bedroom.

So... anyone with a background in RF engineering care to comment on just how hard/expensive it really IS to do something like this? Is it even POSSIBLE to scale something that's trivially easy to do with signals that need 6MHz of bandwidth so it works with a signal that needs 80-100MHz of bandwidth? God forbid, is this the kind of project that could actually be published in MAKE magazine or sold as kits by Ramsey? Or is there a fine line somewhere between 6MHz and 100+ MHz where things you can get away with kludging and ignoring at 6MHz become Major Problems that Must Be Dealt With Properly (sort of like the way you have to start really caring about things like impedance, ground planes, and bus design for digital circuits at some point between 16MHz and 32MHz).

duvetyne

05-17-09, 10:39 AM

Is it even POSSIBLE to scale something that's trivially easy to do with signals that need 6MHz of bandwidth so it works with a signal that needs 80-100MHz of bandwidth?

After compression, these digital signals only require 6MHz of bandwidth.
It is possible, and it's been done for years.

jimre

05-17-09, 01:16 PM

After compression, these digital signals only require 6MHz of bandwidth.
It is possible, and it's been done for years.I think he's talking about leaving these in the analog domain, not digital. Interesting idea - treating each of the baseband Y, Pb, Pr as separate "channels" to be modulated onto coax, then recombined by some "receiver" back into a component output on the other end. I have no idea if it's feasible, but - esp for HD - seems like each one would take a lot more bandwidth than a single 6Mhz channel.

miamicanes

05-17-09, 03:03 PM

Yeah, it would DEFINITELY take a lot more bandwidth than 6MHz. But if the modulator system has the cable's entire ~400-900MHz of bandwidth at its disposal, and assuming it's not that much harder to modulate a 70-100MHz baseband signal onto a FM carrier, it eliminates the need for all the intermediate digital processing that currently makes whole-house HD distribution too outrageously expensive to even bother with unless you have some compelling, urgent need to distribute HD video to multiple rooms.

Going back to the $99-129-149 example for the modulator and first demodulator, that's cheap enough that someone currently paying $5/month to DirecTV for a second box could sanely rationalize it, since he'd break even in 2-3 years. Add a second $5/month box rental to the equation, and it becomes a no-brainer... add another $50 demodulator, and the system would break even in a year.

As far as bandwidth goes, I just kind of assumed the worst case (1080p60) to ensure that the modulator could handle literally anything the DVR's component video ports are capable of spewing out. Since we have the whole cable's bandwidth at our disposal, I'm assuming that it would cost more to try and filter down the signal coming from the box to reduce its bandwidth needs than to just take it as-is and give it enough headroom to "just work" regardless of the signal's real resolution.

I don't know a lot about analog circuit design, but from what I remember from college, the main things that make analog circuits expensive and complicated are the need to conserve power, make efficient use of bandwidth, achieve high reliability/availability, and deal with noise & distortion... and most of the noise & distortion comes from whatever you did to achieve the first 3 goals without completely exceeding your target price. Remove the first 3 goals, and #4 practically solves itself. Even rf interference and noise are easy to deal with if bandwidth's not an issue... you can pump up the signal strength, then attenuate it at the other end, or even do something more aggressive, like modulate the same baseband signal multiple times onto two or more different carriers, then recombine them at the other end so the good signal reinforces itself, and the noise gets averaged away. It's a strategy that's outrageously wasteful of bandwidth if you're broadcasting over the air, but crazy enough to actually work if you've got a closed signal path and cheap class-D amplifiers at your disposal to do the grunt work.

Also, I thought of a second use case for Joe Sixpack that DOESN'T assume he has an unused coax in the wall:

1. Joe connects the DVR's component, s-video, and stereo outputs to the modulator.

2. Joe doesn't HAVE an in-wall cable to use. The only coax is that which the installer ran from each box to the satellite multiswitch on the roof. OK, time to get creative...

3. As luck would have it, the living room is adjacent to the kitchen (where there's a box and TV), or a bedroom on the other side of one of the living room's walls. Joe runs a new coax cable from the modulator (by the DVR) to that other TV's box.

4. Joe goes up to the roof (or utility room, or wherever) and disconnects the cable leading to that room's TV. He returns to the room, and verifies that the box now shows "no signal." He disconnects the satellite box from both the TV and cable formerly leading to the multiswitch, then cackles with glee and packs up the leased box for its trip back to DirecTV.
He puts a 2:1 splitter at the end of the new coax, and connects one of the outputs to the demodulator box. He connects the demodulator box to the TV, and confirms that it works. He proceeds to connect the splitter's other output to the cable leading to the multiswitch (that's no longer connected to it, of course).

5. Joe goes up to the roof (or wherever the multiswitch is located), and proceeds to disconnect the remaining cables leading to rooms where he's going to be replacing the leased DirecTV box with a demodulator.

6. Joe goes through the house, and confirms that the satellite boxes that are supposed to work still do... and the boxes that are going to be returned show "no signal".

7. Joe goes back to the multiswitch, and connects the cable coming from the first room where he replaced the box with a demodulator to the input of a n-way splitter. He connects the remaining now-unused cables that lead to rooms now devoid of leased satellite boxes to its outputs.

8. Joe connects the cables in the remaining rooms to additional demodulators, connects the demodulators to the TVs, and smiles when he realizes that in just a few months, he'll be saving $5, $10, maybe even $20 per month over what he used to pay in box rental fees for TVs he hardly ever watched.

Best of all, if FM modulation of 50-100MHz baseband signals isn't terribly exotic or hard to design, this is literally the kind of product that could go from design to FCC submission within a matter of weeks, and conceivably be heading to America on a boat from China in time to reach stores by Adam Smith Day (the day after Thanksgiving, when Americans celebrate capitalism by shopping like there's no tomorrow).

meevan1

05-17-09, 05:30 PM

Guys... another question for BOCS...

1. Remotes
2. Heat on supercombiner

3. NEW QUESTION: My caller ID on tv from Time Warner cable is now missing. TWC said I need to get rid of my bocs... that you are filtering out my Caller ID on TV signal....is this true?

xlurkr

05-21-09, 09:29 PM

And be sure to enter the drawing!!!

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Xtender/87800035343

Thanks again - David Feller

So who won? I'm not seeing it on the FaceBook page.

space2001

05-22-09, 09:06 AM

Damn Think I signed up to late for the contest.

Would love to get one of these.

Just waiting for the HD part of it, to be figured out.

devdogaz

05-23-09, 04:30 PM

devdogaz

05-24-09, 08:23 PM

The SD version of this system sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. Given that the system sends the signals throughout the house regardless of whether there's an Xtender remote associated with each TV, does anyone know if you can simply use the TV's existing remote to tune to the appropriate channel that's associated with the R/G/B channels? Clearly you wouldn't have the ability to control the DVR/DVD player without an IR remote, but could the content be accessed by simply pressing Ch. 88, for example?
OK, I think I found the answer to this question. The FAQ on the Bocs website says that standard installation has the Red channel on 14, the Blue on 96 and the Green on 98. I assume you can change those if your cable provider has signals on those channels.

Anyway, I now have a new question: How does the Xtender integrate with an A/V setup that includes a Receiver? For example, I would install the Xtender in the family room where the main TV is located. All of the sources go through the Receiver and video is displayed on the TV while sound comes from the surround speakers around the room (pretty typical setup). If I installed Xtender, I would want it to provide signals to other TVs in the house, but I would not want it to have any effect on the way the family room TV setup operates. I'd want to continue using my regular universal remote, I'd want to be able to select the source through the receiver, etc. So the question is, when you run the output from the TiVo to the Xtender, how do you also run it to the Receiver? I don't want to have to split the signal, and I don't want to have to use the Red, Green and Blue channels on the main TV. I've looked through the installation manual from the BOCS website, but it's unclear how this is handled. Any ideas?

David Feller

06-01-09, 07:55 PM

Hey -
Wanted to give the folks on this forum the inside scoop - I have it on good authority that Amperor (www.amperordirect.com) is about to put the Xtender system on sale again. If you have been watching this thread and want to participate - Father's Day is a great time to take advantage... I'll watch the sales guy and see if I can find out who will have the best deals.

David Feller
www.myXtender.com
www.myXtender.com/wholehome blog

JoshMKiV

06-05-09, 11:01 AM

I bit. Will let you know what I think shortly. Fingers crossed for HD.

David Baldwin

06-07-09, 08:52 PM

I bit. Will let you know what I think shortly. Fingers crossed for HD.

Josh, I see you are in PA. If you are in the Pittsburgh area and hit any snags on your install, I might be able to help you out. Just PM me!

Best Regards,
Dave

heffneil

06-08-09, 07:23 AM

I have to admit I can't stop thinking about this product!!! I am thinking about all the places I think it would be wonderful in my home. I am even thinking about distributing my SageTV implementation through it! I like having direct access to some cable boxes so I don't lose indemand options that I lose in Sage and I like the no STB! My only concern is the remote really. I have become a huge fan of the Harmony One which allows me to make buttons on the home screen to perform STB functions. I just worry that SageTV being so outside the norm there might be functions missing and no button label that makes sense or is intuitive. Can we see an upclose of the remote somewhere? I think this is going to be my father's day request!!!

JoshMKiV

06-11-09, 09:28 AM

Mine arrived, will install this weekend. (I am in Eastern PA)

I would pay... much more... for HD =)

heffneil

06-11-09, 10:12 PM

Ordered mine today! Can't wait to mess around with it!

Neil

JoshMKiV

06-14-09, 08:28 PM

I got mine up and running in maybe 10 mins. Works as advertised, great product, great value. The quick-start guide should say what channels are used as default, I had to go to the website, but no biggie.

I just got an email about tje ZvBox 150 being released. It looks like $999 is the lowest price for HD at this point. Fingers crossed we get that HD upgrade .

David Baldwin

06-16-09, 09:56 PM

Josh, Great News! 10min, wow. How many TVs did you set up? I am waiting on the HD also, but may actually pull the trigger on another SD box to have 6 source capability soon.

David Baldwin

06-16-09, 09:58 PM

heffneil, please let us know what you think!

JoshMKiV

06-17-09, 09:12 AM

I only tested it on two (2) TVs - laundry room is the PERFECT use for this though... No need for a cable box is great.

FYI in those 10 mins I did not bother to program the remote, just hookup and get video to another TV...

My setup might be easier because I have home-run cables to my equipment room, all with labels.

ucbengr

06-24-09, 02:11 PM

After reading about the BOCS unit here for the last couple of weeks, I am seriously thinking about picking one up. I have a few questions and hopefully someone here will be able to help answer before I take the plunge.

I get my TV shows with an Over-The-Air antenna and my movies through Netflix. I do not subscribe to cable or satellite TV, just don’t want to pay the monthly fees. My series one Tivo pretty much became useless with the recent OTA digital broadcast transition. I can hook up an external digital tuner since the series one Tivo has external video input ports but all of the convenience of Tivo recording features are no longer available.

I jumped on the recent Father’s Day special where the HD Tivo + lifetime subscription went for $500. I’m quite happy with the new unit but I am now stuck trying to figure out what to do with the old one. EBay will not fetch much and landfill seemed such a waste.

So I had the idea of converting the old Tivo into a video server along with the BOCS Xtender.
1. I can dump part of my DVD collection onto the old Tivo. Especially the TV series on DVDs that I have been meaning to watch. There’s the 5 seasons of 24 and the complete series of West Wing I got at a great deal but still unopened in their original wrapper!
2. I can use the new HD Tivo to record kids shows and then offload them onto the old Tivo so the kids can still use the playback features with the Tivo system they love.

Several questions:
- How is the video quality using the Xtender on bigger screens? It seems from the various reviews the video quality is decent on smaller screens. How is it on a 42” 1080p LCD?
- Will I be able to hook up the new HD Tivo to the Xtender? When I play back a show recorded in HD will there be a signal coming out of the composite port to drive the Xtender?
- Are there copy right protections preventing transfers between Tivo’s using the A/V ports? I still remember the days when VCRs have messed with the video blanking portion of the video signal to prevent duplication.
- I have a couple of Logitech Harmony remotes that I have gotten to like. How will those work in conjunction with the Xtender remote?
- Will the Xtender work in conjunction with a Sling Box so that I can have the in-home sharing over coax convenience and also Ethernet access away from home?
- When streaming music, will I be able to playback using only an FM receiver hooked up to the coax or must I have a TV band tuner on the receiver? I recall reading somewhere that the Xtender uses the FM band for transmission.

Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions.

David Baldwin

06-24-09, 05:21 PM

ucbenger,

As an owner of 2 SDTivos and 1HDTivo, I'm suprised the SD Tivos can't be configured to control a $40 OTA Digital converter box that has IR remote. I would search around a little more on this if I were you.

The Xtender video quality is quite good, but only as good as the input signal quality up to 480 lines (720x480) of resolution. The Composite Video output from my HDTiVo is noticeably better than that from my SDTiVOs. I think the HDTiVo channel looks very good on all of my TVs including my 52" LCD, and acceptable on my 110" projection screen. The SD Tivo's look a bit softer. Seating distance from the screens is a factor also. My wife is completely oblivious to the differences so it depends on your sensitivity to video quality differences too.

Yes, The HDTivo works great with the BOCs Xtender Hub! And yes, it looks even better with HD source material than SD source material!

I don't know if there is any kind of integrated Macrovision type protection on the TiVO's, but it doesn't impact the BOCs Xtender Hub's functionality, so I'm guessing not. I know there is a VCR recording function on the SDTiVos for backing up recordings to VCRs, but I never tried it. As far as copyright protection, I think since you are going to the analog domain, it is OK to record the programs for personnal viewing purposes, but am not a lawyer.

Good questions on the Harmony remotes. To use in a room other than where the BOCs Xtender Hub is, you need a compatible RF path to the Xtender. If your Logitech remotes are the RF ones, I think you could put the R receiver next to the BOCs Xtender Hub and use the IR Blaster wire from that attached to the IR receiver on the BOCs Xtender, but you would need to verify with BOCs as I have not tried this. Maybe an IR remote would work in the same room as the BOCs Xtender Hub for the same reason, but you would need to verify.

I don't have a Sling Box, but conceptually this should work, but again, I would ask BOCs customer service as they probably have customers who are doing this if it is possible. Go to www.bocsco.com.

When distributing audio, there are many ways to do this depending on your setup and end goals. 1) Use a source, like HDTivo, with either Rhapsody or linked to a computer with your MP3 collection (Tivo Server), etc and just control it like you would today via the HDTiVo interface and through the BOCs Xtender Hub. You can serve your photos this way too. 2) Use a more direct source like an IPOD Dock or a computer with composite video output that can be controlled by an IR Remote and set it up as a source for the Xtender. This is going to be one of my next projects after add 3 more sources through an additional BOCs Xtender Hub!

No you won't be able to hook up a FM receiver directly to the COAX and get FM Radio on all your TVs. Think of that FM band over coax like an antenna input to your FM receiver from the cable company.

You could run the analog Left Right Audio Line Outs from your FM Receiver as an input to your BOCs and then the associated channel would have that sound play through the TVs speakers, but the remote control would be a challenge unless your FM receiver has an On Screen Display and comosite video output for tuning channels, etc. Hmmm, I need to check my Denon to see if it supports this!

Hope this helps a little!
DLB

ucbengr

06-24-09, 10:23 PM

Hey David,

Thanks so much for your detailed explanations and suggestions. I checked the back of the series one Tivo and to my surprise there is an output IR blaster port! It looks like it was to be used to control an external Satellite tuner. Quick check on the Tivo setup menu confirmed this. The question now is whether the programmed code inside of the old Tivo will support an ATSC tuner box. Possibly with a firmware upgrade? Maybe a quick check at the Tivo user forum will shed some light. Thanks again for your suggestion.

Good to know that HD content playback through composite port of the HD Tivo shows up better than SD content. I guess this means the weak link in the setup is the quality of the recorded content rather than the quality of the processing circuits inside of the Xtender. This should make the decision for me to go with the SD unit now a little easier instead of having to wait for the HD unit.

Thanks again for taking the time to write up all of the details...especially for a newbie like me!

Rubics

06-25-09, 02:13 AM

-Could I distribute the video from my two SD satellite boxes with the Bocs?
-Is there a need to amplify the signal with coax cable runs under 100'?

David Baldwin

06-25-09, 07:31 AM

Rubics,

As long as your SD satellite boxes have Composite video + Left and Right Audio outputs (RCA Jacks) and incorporate and use an IR Remote Control, then the BOCs Xtender Hub should be able to work with them. You would also have to relocate both satellite boxes to the same location as the BOCs Xtender Hub. There is more information on the www.bocsco.com website. You can download the manuals there. There are people using this today with DirecTV and DISH systems.

The BOCs Xtender Supercombiner has an integrated signal amplifier that works very well and I have coax runs greater than 100'.

ucbengr

06-25-09, 12:25 PM

ucbenger,

When distributing audio, there are many ways to do this depending on your setup and end goals. 1) Use a source, like HDTivo, with either Rhapsody or linked to a computer with your MP3 collection (Tivo Server), etc and just control it like you would today via the HDTiVo interface and through the BOCs Xtender Hub. You can serve your photos this way too. 2) Use a more direct source like an IPOD Dock or a computer with composite video output that can be controlled by an IR Remote and set it up as a source for the Xtender. This is going to be one of my next projects after add 3 more sources through an additional BOCs Xtender Hub!

No you won't be able to hook up a FM receiver directly to the COAX and get FM Radio on all your TVs. Think of that FM band over coax like an antenna input to your FM receiver from the cable company.

You could run the analog Left Right Audio Line Outs from your FM Receiver as an input to your BOCs and then the associated channel would have that sound play through the TVs speakers, but the remote control would be a challenge unless your FM receiver has an On Screen Display and comosite video output for tuning channels, etc. Hmmm, I need to check my Denon to see if it supports this!

Hope this helps a little!
DLB

David,

I'm actually thinking of going the IPod dock route. My concern is playing the music back using the TV speakers with their limited frequency response. For most locations the music thru TV would be fine but at places where I have an HiFi system already set up, it would be nice to be able to pick up the Xtender transmission with the FM receiver instead of having to go through the TV tuner.

I checked the BOCS website and there is no mention of the capability of transmitting over the FM band so that the audio can be picked up by an FM receiver unless of course the receiver has an TV band tuner built-in. I'd supposed that I can use the audio out of the TV to drive the HiFi but that requires turning on the TV.

BTW, with two Xtenders you have six inputs. What do you hook up to them? Were you able to find codes on the Xtender remote to control all of your gears? Thx

JZ

Rubics

06-25-09, 08:28 PM

Thank you David fro your reply. You say I won't need any amplification but what if I need to split the signal up to 8 times to the diferent locations? I heard the lost of power happens in the splitter.
I am really interested in purchasing this unit. My only concern is the fact that it only has three inputs. Other modulators for the same price are able to modulate 4 sources wich would be ideal for me: Two satellite receivers, a computer/media server, and my security cameras.

David Feller

06-26-09, 12:30 AM

- Are there copy right protections preventing transfers between Tivo’s using the A/V ports? I still remember the days when VCRs have messed with the video blanking portion of the video signal to prevent duplication.
- I have a couple of Logitech Harmony remotes that I have gotten to like. How will those work in conjunction with the Xtender remote?
- Will the Xtender work in conjunction with a Sling Box so that I can have the in-home sharing over coax convenience and also Ethernet access away from home?
- When streaming music, will I be able to playback using only an FM receiver hooked up to the coax or must I have a TV band tuner on the receiver? I recall reading somewhere that the Xtender uses the FM band for transmission.

Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions.

Let me hit a couple of these as well -

Re copy protection - within the analog world, the only copy protection is macrovision. Some devices overlay it, some do not - So far, I've not seen anything that effects the video quality of the BOCS unit - but if you ever run across anything, Best Buy sells a nice little box that "cleans up" macrovision problems - how you use that is on the honor system I guess. The only thing I've ever used it for is removing the macrovision so I can grab movies on my Archos media player.

Re - BOCS and Harmony (or any other universal remote for that matter) - We tried to keep the BOCS remotes (and therefore use-ability) "brain dead simple" so in this first version we steered away from macros and complicated setup routines. (Although frankly I've modified the firmware to add a macro or two for my own use) - but if you have a big home theater, many folks want to stick with a highly programmable remote. So, what we recommend is that you create three new macros on your Harmony remote - Red, Green, and Blue - each one changes the TV to the correct input (in this case likely HDMI1, HDMI2, HDMI3) and then the RF basestation for that harmony remote would sit right next to the BOCS unit and have its own IR bugs glued right next to ours. That way every TV in the home is still the same - at remote TVs BOCS remotes control the entertainment, and at the big TV the fancy programmable remote does, but you are still pushing Red, Green, or Blue -

Re - Sling Box - Yes absolutely - works great and I have that in my own setup as well - you simply split the video signal and one goes to BOCS and the other Sling.

Re - FM band - yes - we use the FM band to transmit the signals, and while I have had success using only a receiver to play back the music, that feature has not been well tested. (I'd be willing to offer a free remote to anyone that might be willing to test it out and post a brief report!!)

David Feller

06-26-09, 12:36 AM

Rubics: (This doesnt happen to be Rubic of Burbank does it?)

(I'm with BOCS - by way of full disclosure) -

Power out of the BOCS unit is variable - unlike traditional modulators, we can put out up to 30dB - I've personally installed in hundreds of homes, and I think I've only needed an extra amp in three that I can recall. The issue normally is balance rather than a need for more raw power.

First, the output "power" is controlled from any remote (I put a youtube video up showing how to do that - search for BOCS Xtender and you will find the "library")
You hold down a couple buttons on the remote and you can adjust the power from about 10dB to upwards of 30dB - should be plenty until you get up to 16 or so splits (depending on exactly how the splitters are hooked up).

Back to balance - couple of notes, there is about 7dB of drop from the Xtender port on the supercombiner to the RF out - so max output is actually about 23dB to the rest of the house - if you need that much to get a clear BOCS signal throughout the home and your CATV signal coming into the home is less than about 10dB, then sometimes there is enough imbalance that an added amp on the CATV side is necessary - problem is if you get a big one (15dB or so) then the CATV can then swamp the BOCS signal, so, what I usually do is put the amp after the supercombiner and before the main splitter (on the RF out of Supercombiner) that way both the CATV signal and the BOCS channel get amplified and you can then turn down the BOCS output power to balance.

Good luck -

David Feller

David Feller

06-26-09, 12:41 AM

My only concern is the fact that it only has three inputs. Other modulators for the same price are able to modulate 4 sources wich would be ideal for me: Two satellite receivers, a computer/media server, and my security cameras.

Sorry - I completely missed your second question - 4 inputs.
I had the same problem so I put in two BOCS units - I have 6 sources (it is one of those things, you have 4 now but if you had 6 inputs staring you down you would find two more things to plug in - trust me :-) )

The Second BOCS unit is a bit more tricky to install as the FM band is "all ate up" with the first three channels - so I put mine on 76 78 80 - but you have to either wire "carefully" - see the "reviewers needed posts" under whole home distribution for more info - or make sure you do not step on a good channel.

But to be clear, if your fourth input is merely security cameras you really do not need to buy a second BOCS unit (lightening is striking I think) - the security cameras dont have need of IR control, so you can just get a cheap off the shelf modulator and add them to the mix independently...

Rubics

06-26-09, 01:49 AM

Let me ask you a question... or two. The way you access the "modulated" channels is presing either Red, Blue, or Green on the remote control. Do these Red, Blue, and Green match with any channel in the tv set? In other words, could I use the TV's remote control and press a channel and be able to connect with the "modulated" signal as you would with a standard RF modulator?
and Could I move from watching tv in the living room to watching tv in the bedroom with the same remote control and be able to control both Televissions of different maker without the need to reprogram the remote control?

Bal

06-26-09, 10:00 AM

Any update on the approximate arival time of these? i.e. 2009? 2010? etc

JoshMKiV

06-26-09, 11:14 AM

Any update on the approximate arival time of these? i.e. 2009? 2010? etc

The SD version is available now - it works like a charm.

The HD add-on is a future product.

ucbengr

06-26-09, 11:49 AM

Let me hit a couple of these as well -

Re - FM band - yes - we use the FM band to transmit the signals, and while I have had success using only a receiver to play back the music, that feature has not been well tested. (I'd be willing to offer a free remote to anyone that might be willing to test it out and post a brief report!!)

Thanks David. That sounds promising. It would be a much cleaner solution than having to drag my old VCR out of the closet and use its UHF tuner to pick up the audio signals for the HiFi system. Using the FM tuner on the receiver will save the space and power of going the VCR tuner method.

I don't mind helping to test and even write up a report but I don't have an Xtender yet. Any updates on that special promotion on the Xtender you'd mentioned a few posts ago?

Hey -
Wanted to give the folks on this forum the inside scoop - I have it on good authority that Amperor (www.amperordirect.com) is about to put the Xtender system on sale again. If you have been watching this thread and want to participate - Father's Day is a great time to take advantage... I'll watch the sales guy and see if I can find out who will have the best deals.

David Feller
www.myXtender.com
www.myXtender.com/wholehome blog

heffneil

06-29-09, 06:57 PM

Ok so I am finally starting to play with my Xtender. It is no fault of the Xtender that I am so slow to getting this working. It is amazing how things sometimes work. I was running out of room in the AV rack so I finally bit the bullet and ordered a Russound C series whole home audio system to replace the Speaker Craft. I bought the house with the Speaker Craft and I just couldn't get it to work consistently. That is for another time. Anyway I was able to pull out 3 CD changes and a big honking receiver I no longer need. With that additional space I started the installation of the Xtender. A couple of weeks ago I had the electricians relocate the coax into the AC rack. I was experiencing problems with my cable so I wanted to get that all straight before I attempted this. Turns out my Leviton 1x8 amp/splitter crapped the bed and wasn't boosting signal any longer. The cable company put their cheap drop amps and splitters on and got everything working. After they left I went and cleaned up all my coax and I mounted all my splitters and drop amps on a 1u shelf and I think it looks pretty neat. I put a power strip on the shelf and the cable modem even fit. The supercombiner is on there as well. Maybe I will post a picture of this later. I actually want to redo this in a 1 u shelf that slides out for easier access and maintenance down the road.

Anyway when I made the shelf distribution system I did put the supercombiner in but without the Xtender hooked up. It was then that I realized that the supercombiner requires power from the Xtender. This was a little troubling but I moved on. I disconnected it until today. I plugged it in and ran a coax from the Xtender to the supercombiner that turned out to be too short. So I went and made a new coax cable and reconnected it to the supercombiner. I then tested cable tv and didn't work. I was scratching my head and trying to figure out what had happened. Then I realized I didn't hook the new cable which reached up to the Xtender. Brain fart. But another realization was that I wish the supercombiner had a power indicator light. Plugged in the cable and was ready to go but to my sadness there was still no cable tv. I then consulted the directions. Being a manly man I never do that. I think the directions confused me more honestly. One point is that the instructions are not technical and expected me to put the Xtender where a cable box already resided. It was a bit confusing as to which coax was what. But the problems were compounded by the fact that the Xtender had different labels on the coax ports than the directions! Ultimately I tried the ANT IN port which was the proper one and cable tv works again. That is about as far as I have gotten now. I did plug in my last SageTV HD100 as the first device to test with. I am probably over complicating this initial test since the HD100 isn't one of the predefined Devices.

In summary I would wish for:

Better directions which could be more technical and labeled inline with the devices labels on the coax ports.

A supercombiner that passed through cable without the Xtender being plugged in. I don't know if this is even possible but it's my wish list.

A power light indicator on the supercombiner.

SageTV HD100 HD200 devices codes. It would be nice but I gather there isn't a lot of demand.

Again this is just a wish list. I am not moving on to pairing remotes and I will report back my findings soon.

Thanks!

Neil

David Baldwin

06-29-09, 08:22 PM

Heffneil, Sorry to hear about the troubles. On the supercombiner power light, there is an LED inside the supercombiner that you can see if you look inside one of the connectors, I forget, which one.

heffneil

06-29-09, 08:50 PM

David Feller

07-01-09, 03:03 PM

Guys,

I FINALLY got around to setting mine up with the baby cameras. So far so good. QUESTIONS:

1. Gets VERY HOT, anyone else notice this (the supercombiner).
2. Can a remote be used on MULTIPLE TVs? Tech support said yes, but didnt know how to do this... any suggestions?

Tnx
Tex

1. The Supercombiner runs about 20 degrees above ambient - it has a couple of "honker" amplifiers in it. We have them running in Texas attics and have not had any problems so far - failures etc. It is definitely warm but falls well within the chip specs. A heat sync might be in order though.

2. Yes - remotes "could" be used on multiple TVs - in fact I started that wasy but ended up just getting one for each TV to peak the "WAF" as Baldwin puts it... If you happen to have a bunch of TVs with the same IR codes you are set - I bought 5 magnavox TVs all the same time at Costco a while back - The remotes don't know where they are, they just need to control a TV. You can also program a different TV into the three other local buttons at the bottom of the remote - problem is the Red, Green, and Blue buttons use the number codes programmed into "Local TV" button to tune when you go to a BOCS channel - so (and yes this is really awkward) - you could put a second TV in the "CBL" button - then to use, you would press CBL, hit the corresponding channel 14 for Red, 98 for Green, and 96 for Blue, then hold your hand over the front of the remote and hit the color you want...) - remember I said awkward - but it works.

Good luck
DF

David Feller

07-01-09, 03:06 PM

It isn't the end of the world. I don't want to sound like I am complaining but if everything went smoothly I would be more worried :)! I don't want to make anyone turned off from the product because I sure am not. I still love the idea and people have proven that it works. I got my SageTV box hooked up and I programed the remote / Xtender depending on how you look at it. Im having a couple issues with that and my range isn't reaching where I am testing. I need to deploy the repeated I bought. It is a little surprising its a little complex and not plug and play for the repeater. If I hadn't read the directions (remember I normally don't) I wouldn't have known it needed to be paired.

Neil

Neil - no worries - we are most DEFINITELY looking for feedback - comments good or bad are what we are after -
Good thoughts on the repeater operation - I was actually thinking of a small card that had to be ripped off the repeater before operation that stated the setup steps - (press bind button on Xtender, plug in repeater) -

Did your repeater come with any instructions in the box at all? Sounds like I need to go beat someone...

Thanks again for the feedback.

David Feller

07-01-09, 03:15 PM

In summary I would wish for:

Better directions which could be more technical and labeled inline with the devices labels on the coax ports.

A supercombiner that passed through cable without the Xtender being plugged in. I don't know if this is even possible but it's my wish list.

A power light indicator on the supercombiner.

SageTV HD100 HD200 devices codes. It would be nice but I gather there isn't a lot of demand.

Again this is just a wish list. I am not moving on to pairing remotes and I will report back my findings soon.

Thanks!

Neil

On your wish list -
1) Better instructions - actually working on that right now - I think the key is better "self-explanatory pictures"... Long story short, we started with the installer channel and did not originally write the instructions for the end consumer - mistake on my part I think.

2) Supercombiner that passes without Xtender being plugged in - We actually have one - in fact, it can be turned "off" from any BOCS remote so you get all your cable channels back all over the home (in case someone in the home REALLY wants QVC on channel 98) - but they drop an extra 7dB or so from input to output even when powered and that means having to add an extra amp to your cable system depending on how stingy the cable guys are with signal to your home, so we did not include that by default. If anyone wants/needs one or would like to try one out just drop me a note.

3) Power light on supercombiner - Dave B answered that one - again long story short, the reason for hiding it in the RF-in was to keep the weatherseal integrity. I couldn'd find a cheap case from Asia that was weather resistent and didn't leak RF with an LED hole (passing FCC is a real pain I must say)

4) Sage TV codes (or let me expand that to AppleTV, ipod docks etc) - Problem is the UEI codes we use are for a universal remote and they have not added those default to their codebase. But - every remote and every Xtender will learn (or can be upgraded to learning - free if you drop me a note with the serial numbers in question) to "suck the codes in"... If you are really ambitious, there are some nice folks over at the JP1 forums who specialize in hacking remotes to add codes. Not brain-dead simple but fun to play with things like that.

Good luck - and I've just Privat Messaged you with my cell phone number - feel free to use me as your primary technical support.

David Feller

07-01-09, 03:22 PM

David Feller

07-01-09, 03:25 PM

It isn't the end of the world. I don't want to sound like I am complaining but if everything went smoothly I would be more worried :)! I don't want to make anyone turned off from the product because I sure am not. I still love the idea and people have proven that it works. I got my SageTV box hooked up and I programed the remote / Xtender depending on how you look at it. Im having a couple issues with that and my range isn't reaching where I am testing. I need to deploy the repeated I bought. It is a little surprising its a little complex and not plug and play for the repeater. If I hadn't read the directions (remember I normally don't) I wouldn't have known it needed to be paired.

Neil

Also - I probably didn't fully answer this the first reply - We decided to make the repeater only work if paired so your neighbor's remotes (yes my goal is one in every home in America) will not bounce through your repeater. For cost reasons, you can only use one repeater per home (it is time slot managed rather than purely addressable collision avoidance) so two repeaters on one system tend to step on each other.

heffneil

07-01-09, 03:43 PM

I programmed my remote since it is learning with the SageTV remote. I think I still have a issue getting to the Xtender from my bathroom. Once my mother-in-law leaves I will move the cable box in to the rack with my Xtender and my testing should be easier and more simplified.

I have an HAI DVR system that has a coax out. I plan on hooking up the one channel to this device but I still have a lot more pieces of the puzzle (camera side) before I will be prepared to do that. Probably in the next couple of weeks or so.

Neil

aeblank

07-01-09, 05:48 PM

I've been mostly following this thread and I'm struggling to comprehend some parts of it.
I have a modulator (with IR), and fully understand that.

What exactly is this system?
A "special" modulator?
A remote with color-coded buttons instead of channel numbers?
Looks like an RF remote?
It modulates on normal analog channels or digital channels?
Can you use a different remote--like a Harmony or something?

The part that I'm interested in is the HD distribution.
Will there be a box on top of each TV for that?
Why isn't it thousands of dollars like the other HD modulators?

For the record, I'm PLENTY FINE with someone developing an "easier to use" modulator. To me, it appears that is what this is. Installing mine, I can see where people would be overwhelmed and that's if they even managed to figure out that a modulator is what they needed. It does appear to be a simpler, sleeker, easier to understand setup that does basically what my setup does. I bought an ABUS audio system largely because I understood the concept entirely.

heffneil

07-01-09, 09:50 PM

Erik Garci

07-02-09, 01:18 AM

Why isn't it thousands of dollars like the other HD modulators?
Have you heard of the $999 ZvPro 150?

JoshMKiV

07-02-09, 09:39 AM

So here I am loving this thing and JUST NOW realized that it can broadcast all three sources at once? I thought it was a single source at a time.

Any chance we can get an update on the HD progress? Even if you tell me lies... Adding HD to this would make it the purchase of the year - or better.

Bal

07-02-09, 10:31 AM

heffneil

07-09-09, 08:09 PM

David Feller

07-09-09, 10:03 PM

Josh -
Yes - all three sources broadcast at the same time - independently. For clarity, though, (as this is a frequent point of confusion), if you plug - say - a DVR into the red channel, since the DVR only really has one output, you can only watch one pre-recorded show at a time from that single DVR. Every TV in the house can watch that show at the same time, but you can't watch two different recorded shows.
Hope that helps
David Feller

David Feller

07-09-09, 10:12 PM

IM still having issues with the repeat of keys. I think I improved my coverage. My house is big but I am still having a problem reaching the one room I really wanted to use this originally. It is also almost the furthest from the room the Xtender is in. Mr Feller if you read this please email me I left you a voice mail and a couple pm's here.

Thanks,

Neil

Neil -
Terribly sorry about the trouble.
RF is a weird and semi-mysterious thing. We use 900Mhz which, now, is fairly open. Plus we do use a rudimentary type of frequency hop/shift to avoid interference. I've been getting a typical 150ft line of sight or 75-100 ft indoors with typical stick/drywall construction. Note that range is hugely impacted by the position and orientation of the antenna on the back of the Xtender - AND whether that antenna has a "clear" area around it. BOCS works best if it is the top device in a stack and is not buried below or around big chunks of metal.
The most common issue I've found tend to be air conditioners/duct work - lots of folks like putting their A/V stack in the basement and that typically means near the A/C unit - some slight shifting to keep the big return air ducts from being directly between BOCS and where you want the remote to work is usually worth a little playing.
AND - we do have a repeater - properly placed, it can almost double the range (I'm happy to get you hooked up with one) - I should note that optimum placement of the repeater is not always where you might logically think it should go, and whether it is plugged in right side up or upside down effects range as well.
Also check the batteries in the remotes - make sure there are not green batteries in there (long story but I got a really bad shipment of batteries from Asia - we tried to screen them all out, but if yours are green, swap them out... I prefer Energizer or Costco brand myself)

One last thing, the system is designed such that you can only use one repeater per BOCS system - so in the largest of homes, I usually try to place the BOCS unit in one end of the home and a repeater in the middle... So far I've not run into a home that I couldn't cover using these tricks. (almost none, one of the CROCs guys had me put one in his "mountain cabin" - I get up there and it is a 25K foot mansion in Steamboat - I told him to buy a Crestron... :-)

David Feller

David Feller

07-09-09, 10:14 PM

I would love an update as well. Been researching this quite a bit and some high quality broadcast equipment does this currently but costs ~$2500. And each one accepts only a single source.
http://store.hivionics.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=DVR-HDMI-T-MOD

Accepts HDMI or Analog. Similiar equipment to what Best Buy utilizes to send their custom feeds around the store.

We are not quite there yet -
In the meantime, I recommend taking a look at www.zeevee.com - I'm pretty sure they have a $1000 single channel modulator
(And frankly it mates up really well to our BOCS unit for control and a couple more SD signals)...

Thanks for inquiring - I'll make sure AVS folks get a heads up as we get closer.

David Feller

heffneil

07-09-09, 10:23 PM

heffneil

07-09-09, 10:24 PM

The spacing on the picture just doesn't work. Sorry I don't know how else to show it without adding filler letters. Sorry.

David Feller

07-09-09, 10:25 PM

I really don't want to make this a bitchfest and I have to admit I haven't called anyone / David Feller for support. I usually work on this late and night and strange times. So I have a bunch of problems:

1. I can't get the remote to repeat certain button presses. I can't press STOP STOP in a row. I can press STOP PAUSE STOP. STOP DOWN STOP but not STOP STOP. I can't press the skip back multiple times. In SageTV I need to be able to press STOP STOP in a row but it won't register the second press until I hit another button. Also I think the repeat or spead in which a subsequent button is pressed seems delayed. I saw a way to speed up local tv buton presses but is there a way to speed up the Xtender? Also if I hold a button it doesn't seem to repeat it (I could be wrong about this).

2. My range in the house is about 100 feet. I have to ask I paired the RF extender do I have to pair a remote with the RF Extender? I walked down the hall and the remote stopped working. I plugged in the RF Extender and it didn't do the three lights blink fast response. Then I moved the RF Extender a little further away and stood next to it with the remote and it worked. I walked 10 feet away from the RF Extender and got the three lights blinking fast. I still can't get the remote to work where the TV's are currently.

That is it for now but I am sure I will have new developments soon. David if you message me your email or something I will send you some questions but I like the public forum so hopefully other people can appreciate and gain help from this.

Thanks!

Neil

For all - my email is dfeller@bocsco.com and my cell is 720-206-4114 (Gee that sounds dangerous, but what the heck...)

1. As for repeat, Since I'm thinking we did not have the SageTV codes (or do we? you might want to try the different codes under security/home automation), I assume you learned the codes. I'm betting that the Sage either uses a repeat code or does an inversion each time you press the same button. I'd like to see if you will experiment a little, and if we can't get it working, I can see if UEI (The IR code databse company) can send me a custom code for Sage TV and then I could send you a remote with that code pre-loaded... just letting you know there are multiple steps in trying to solve your problem.

So - experimenting -
Try learning the stop a couple different ways, first learn by just "tapping" stop ont he OEM remote, if that does not work, try learning by holding down the stop on the OEM remote until you get a double blink on the BOCS remote. The UEI learning process reads those as different approaches and sometimes will catch the repeat/invert method.
One other option, just for clarity, NOT as good and probably a pain for you - but you could learn stop into the stop button and then immediately repeat the process (without hitting stop in between) and learn stop into another button (It would learn the inverse if that is the method Sage uses) - it woul dbe a good experiment to see if that works - then you would hit stop pause (for instance if pause is where you learned stop the second time) and see how Sage responds.

2) on the range issue - I didnt see this post and answered that in a seperate post a little further down...

Let me know

David Feller

David Feller

07-09-09, 10:40 PM

Ok I have a repeater. My house is metal studs so I am kinda screwed there. The his is large. I can control the system 90% of the time from my bedroom but my bathroom which I would say is probably 150 feet away is a problem. I get it to work for about 130 feet or so (I am probably over estimating) and then it just won't connect up. I noticed the repeater upside down worked better. My house is kinda a zig zag. I am going to try to depict what I am saying:

*__________
|
|
|
|
|@
--------|
|
-----------
X

The X is the room I want it to work in and the * is where the Xtender is. Sorry for the crude picture but I just missed ascii art too much! @ is were I have the repeater now. I wonder if the antenna can be extended with a piece of coax throughout the attic. I don't know anything about wireless but let me know if that is an viable idea. Otherwise is there some kind of a wifi to wireless or maybe I get a wifi to IR but then I am defeating the purpose of the device.

Well if you made it this far besides the problem with the range which is certainly environmental in my house I can't get the remote to repeat STOP. I can press STOP UP Arrow STOP and it will work but I can't press STOP STOP in a row without some other key in the middle. Any ideas here?

Thanks,

Neil

oooh - metal studs. I hate those. When I was peddling wireless LAN, we had trouble with them depending on how far apart they were spaced.

While I'm not allowed to recommend messing with the antenna (under FCC rules), I will point out that the antenna connection inside the Xtender is a standard mini-PCI style connector used in laptops and companies like Maxrad have some really cool high gain antennas that would plug right in. Maybe I'll do a little research over the weekend. Antennas with gain do NOT work if you need omnidirectional coverage, but if you want all the energy to go one direction, they really buy a lot of range.

Let me do a little more research.

DF

David Baldwin

07-11-09, 04:30 PM

Ok I have a repeater. My house is metal studs so I am kinda screwed there. The his is large. I can control the system 90% of the time from my bedroom but my bathroom which I would say is probably 150 feet away is a problem. I get it to work for about 130 feet or so (I am probably over estimating) and then it just won't connect up. I noticed the repeater upside down worked better. My house is kinda a zig zag. I am going to try to depict what I am saying:

*__________
|
|
|
|
|@
--------|
|
-----------
X

The X is the room I want it to work in and the * is where the Xtender is. Sorry for the crude picture but I just missed ascii art too much! @ is were I have the repeater now. I wonder if the antenna can be extended with a piece of coax throughout the attic. I don't know anything about wireless but let me know if that is an viable idea. Otherwise is there some kind of a wifi to wireless or maybe I get a wifi to IR but then I am defeating the purpose of the device.

Well if you made it this far besides the problem with the range which is certainly environmental in my house I can't get the remote to repeat STOP. I can press STOP UP Arrow STOP and it will work but I can't press STOP STOP in a row without some other key in the middle. Any ideas here?

Thanks,

Neil

Heffneil,

I suspect you already tried this, but did you experiment with different places to put the repeater? In my home I noticed a performance difference depending on where it was placed.

At first I tried it in the center of the house more directly between my Master bedroom and the Xtender that was completely in the opposite corner of the house. It did not work well for whatever reason. Then I moved it to the third floor almost directly and 2 floors above the Xtender, then I have a long open hall that runs the whole length of the house so there is minimal obstruction between the master BR and the repeater. This is working perfectly. My Xtender sits sandwiched in a rack full of equipment, which is not Ideal for RF. I also employ another RF repeater in the room to relay signals for my lighting controller and this is also on 900MHz, but it still works.

DLB

David Baldwin

07-11-09, 04:35 PM

Hey, do you have an AC outlet in the attic? You could put the repeater up there and maybe avoid some of the metal in the walls???

heffneil

07-11-09, 05:52 PM

I was thinking about throwing it up there. I think I am going to move the Xtender up in the rack.

I have a WIFI device in the rack as well but I can't imagine that would interfere. I have major issues with cell phone coverage in this house too. It is just a bear when it comes to signal.

Tomorrow I will probably experiment some more. I suspect putting the repeater up in the attic might not help the first floor which I haven't even tested at this point.

Neil

heffneil

07-12-09, 03:55 PM

Can the Xtender blind a device? My IR receiver on my SageTV box isn't working anymore now. I hooked up the cable box and it works ok. I moved the Xtender up and I could move my repeater about 12 feet down the hall. I am about 8 feet from where I need this thing to work reliably. I will try up in the attic although I really hate putting an electronic device like that up there...

Thanks!

Neil

djsinc

07-13-09, 09:22 PM

I think I am in the same boat as many here in that I have been searching for a solution to distribute both HD and SD sources throughout my house. I went through the same realization as others that even though I have multiple TVs in the house, there would never be more than about 3 at one time that would need to be watching different programming. So it didn't make sense to get additional Tivos or cable STBs to accommodate every TV.

Currently I have a TivoHD, a S2 Tivo, and a 5 disc DVD player. I've been searching on and off for the past couple months on a solution to share these throughout the house, but all I could find were solutions with a matrix, and/or solutions which required running MUCH more cable than is currently being run through the house.

The house is new, but I didn't have the ability to dictate the cables that were laid down during construction. Thus I have homerun RG6 all converging to the basement utility room, and some sort of mixed loop/homerun structure with cat5e.

Just yesterday I stumbled upon the ZVBox and ZVPro, and thought I had found the exact solution I was looking for. The 150 model looked promising, except that it only goes up to 720p, not 1080. Then there was the Pro 250 model, which did everything I wanted, but was getting a bit unreasonable in the $2200-$2500 price range. So I was not in a rush to get either of these right away.

Lo and behold, my latest search brought up this thread, and the more I read, the more excited I get and want to get this system and try it out! I have to say, from all the posts so far, this seems like an incredible product which can do so much more than the alternatives out there, but without a giant price tag.

I did have one question, currently i subscribe to comcast digital cable which goes into my TivoHD with a cable card for the family room TV, and also feeds into a Comcast STB which has IR blasters coming from the S2 Tivo. The third source would be the DVD Player. I was also thinking of hooking up an attic antenna to act as a 4th source which would contain the local OTA HD channels. This antenna would output onto coax that I would run down to the basement using the coax from a nearby bedroom which does not have a TV in it. My question is that once that signal is down there, I will have the OTA channels on 1 coax, and the Comcast digital cable coming in on another coax. Which of these is the better/best one to act as the "base" signal that the Xtender would modulate its channels onto?

This is my first post here, and from everything I've read, the community is very experienced and knowledgeable. I suspect I will be hanging around for quite a while.

Thanks for any advice anyone can provide.

David Baldwin

07-13-09, 10:25 PM

djsinc,

Welcome to AVSForums!!! There is a wealth of knowledge on these forums. I have learned a lot here over the years. I lurked for about 3 years reading and learning before finally registereing and making my first post.

One advantage of using cable as your base signal is that you have basic cable available on all of your TVs in addition to the modulated sources!

Another advantage is that the signals on the cable will be relatively constant and not cause interference to your modulated channels. Who knows what your antenna will pick up.

If you use cable as the base, you need one of those converter boxes with a composite video output and an IR remote control to get the OTA channels modulated into the system. I haven't tried this myself because all of these channels are available on cable.

The advantage of OTA as a base if you have HDTV's throughout your house is that you can pick up the OTA HD signals on these TVs. However, many cable companies, including mine, broadcast the major networks in HD along with the basic cable anyway so its not an advantage for me and might not be for you either.

My vote is cable as the base and OTA only as a last resort backup option for when the cable goes out, which hasn't been very often for me in recent years.

OH, and just to make it clear, this system is only SD right know, but the Composite output from the HDTivo is very good, even on my 52" LCD, but not HD. I think the Xtender captures 480 lines for 720x480 widescreen and 640x480 4x3, but not 100% sure on the actual video capture specs. It works very well though!

Good Luck!
Dave

djsinc

07-14-09, 09:59 PM

Thanks David, I did some experimenting and it doesn't appear that I get my HD channels from comcast if I hook up directly to the TV. I just see the standard channels. In any case, I definitely see the advantages of using my cable signal as the base, the main one being there would be many more channels available to all the TVs in the house. I suppose it comes down to the "buffet vs the filet", do I want many channels available on the base signal or do I want just a few but at higher quality.

I'm in the position where I actually only have 1 SD television in the house, and 2 HD, so as we slowly furnish the house, any additional TVs I buy will be HD. Also, I will most likely be upgrading the DVD player to a blu-ray at some point, which means I would actually have 2 HD sources and most of the TVs in the house would be able to display an HD signal. This may drive me to upgrade the S2 Tivo to a TivoHD, which would result in 3 HD sources.

I'm curious if the add-on, modular structure for HD support will be the only way to achieve HD distribution with BOCS, or if there will also be an integrated solution available within the next 6-9 months.

heffneil

07-14-09, 10:14 PM

What is the dB loss of the super combiner? I am thinking of reconfiguring my wiring and I am just curious.

Thanks!

Neil

heffneil

07-19-09, 10:47 AM

Is there any loss with the supercombiner? Anyway I got the unit working really well in two of the rooms very close to the Xtender. I realized that 3 sources is going to get filled up REAL quick. I have some basic questions like how can you lock a source to one tv and how you know that one is in use. Also is there a diagram of someone using two of these together and their functionality?

Thanks,

Neil

JoseLomba

07-22-09, 10:32 PM

I have a problem with the Extender Remote with two S2 tivo series, I can only get the tivo with the remote control switch set to 1, the other tivo which uses the same remote with switch set to 2 can not be programmed

I have two S2 Tivos next to each other one goes to extender red port and the other to the green port, using the extender remote I can program the red tivo using the code 17123 and everything works fine, now the green tivo will not get any of the programmable codes, I have tried the scan option and no code seems to work.
These two tivos are controlled from the same tivo remote by just using the tivo's remote switch 1 or 2 all work fine

David Baldwin

07-25-09, 01:23 AM

Jose,

This is a valid concern and would suprise me if there isn't a code that works.

Remember that Tivo's don't respond well to Power ON/OFF commands. If I remember the Quick Start Guide or manual mentions this and recommends trying other buttons for each code you enter to see if you find something that works. This will take longer, but should be worth it.

If you still can't find a solution, I recommend calling BOCs at (303) 442-6700 and asking for support.

Good Luck!
Dave

WilsonL

07-26-09, 08:39 PM

This looks to be the simple system to solve the A/V distribution at my house which it only has RG6 going to all the rooms.

Does anyone knows if it supports more than 3 sources simultanously?

David Baldwin

07-27-09, 09:49 PM

This looks to be the simple system to solve the A/V distribution at my house which it only has RG6 going to all the rooms.

Does anyone knows if it supports more than 3 sources simultanously?

Wilson,

You can support 3 sources with 1 Xtender.

Yes, you can add a second Xtender to support up to 6 sources. This is the maximum number of inputs in the current system.

A second Xtender requires a few additional low cost components and could require some compromises depending on your setup.

There is some information floating around and I am planning to post a review of my 6 Source setup in the next couple weeks.

Regards,
Dave

WilsonL

07-27-09, 11:23 PM

David Baldwin

07-28-09, 02:37 PM

Wilson,

I don't have directTV, but recommend first downloading the instruction manual from the product website. I think the URL is www.myxtender.com. I found the manual in the support section along with a lot of other helpful information.

Regards,
Dave

JoshMKiV

08-11-09, 10:55 AM

Monthly request for an update on HD. Anything, anything at all...

Loving this thing more and more each day.

heffneil

08-27-09, 04:44 PM

David Feller

09-08-09, 03:36 PM

I would like to get an answer on the DirecTV thing. I just installed with a SWM splitter and I want to know if I can use the super combiner with it to inject the channels. Also I was wondering if you could use 2 supercombiners with one Extender? I have comcast and DirecTV and would like to be able to watch those sources with either.

On another note I got my camera DVR with the standard RCA video out plugged in to the Extender and it works great. I can watch the kids from the bathroom TV every morning.

Neil

First, I'd like to apologize as I've not been on AVS in a while - I've been putting up a new website and redoing the whole way we do customer support. I sincerely apologize if I've left any of my friends here in the lurch - I'm adding an "AVS scan" to my routine.

VERY cool on the camera DVR - I did that once at a bar and the owner loved it. Turns out that there were a lot of bikers that frequented the place and they really liked being able to keep an eye on their bikes out in the parking lot - I hooked it up so they could bring it up picture in picture while they caught the Food network (I kid you not - bunch of burly guys watching Bobby Flay...

But I digress...

2 supercombiners with one Xtender and how does it work with SWM from DirecTV.

Let me start with SWM - YES absolutely. But it really needs to be a SWM-8 as that particular switch has an off-air input. You would plug the Xtender ANT-in right into the off-air port (with a DC block just for safety) and then wire the rest of the home as shown in this diagram from weaknees.com http://www.weaknees.com/pdf/SWM-with-diplexer.html
Actually that is how I wired my home with cable and satellite - I use the supercombiner to insert the Xtender signal into the Cable lineup then hooked the RF-out from the supercombiner into the SWM-8 switch. Everything now goes to every TV. Using the diplexers, if you turn a satellite box off then the cable and xtender channels come through.

Give me a little more detail on your setup and I'd be happy to work up a wiring diagram for you...

The other half of that question is whether you can use two Supercombiners with one Xtender - no - the supercombiner is powered from the Xtender and there is not enough juice to power two - plus any way hooking it up would likely result in strange reflections. But if you use the method above, you only need one anyway. Make sense?

David Feller

09-08-09, 03:44 PM

Howdy all -
Nothing terribly new on the HD front I'm afraid, Still planing on first half of next year but there is still a lot of work to do so we are not ready to announce a date yet.

In the meantime, I received a couple great questions by email that I'd like to share to set a few things straight on our HD plan, what you can do "in the meantime" etc.

I hope this helps -

QUESTION TO ME VIA EMAIL
"> David,
>
> I've been looking at the ZeeVee systems and then found the AVS Forum
> and your BOSC Xtender. I'm very impressed with your system. What makes
> it most compelling are two items. One, I want to distribute component
> vice computer video throughout //my house (I know the ZVPro will do it
> for $2300.00 which is way out of my price range). And two, you have
> provided more customer service in this one forum for BOSC than ZeeVee
> has in all web forums and their website combined. I, like many,
> respect good customer service.
>
> You made this statement "but basically the current SD system acts as a
> "Base system" and then you add as many HD modules as you need for your
> current setup." on the Avsforum. If it [HD compatibility] is just an
> add-on, would it be safe to purchase the SD version now? I don't mind
> jumping in, but would be real disappointed if I made the $400.00 SD
> purchase now and found out I had bought a dinosaur in a few months.
>
> Thanks, - [Anonymous emailer - I'll insert his name if he gives me permission]

REPLY

> Thanks for the email and the kind words on customer service - I've
> been trying to set a new standard without being pushy... tough balance.
>
> As for our system and upgradeability to HD.
> Our plan remains consistent that the HD will be an upgrade, meaning
> the HD modulator is a stand alone device that will not function
> properly without today's SD system as the base. Turns out that the
> modulators are the lowest price piece, so even if someone buys an SD
> system and adds three HD modules, it is still cheaper due to volume
> considerations to leave the modulators in there (the NTSC ones).
>
> Timing is the biggest issue - we have planned on releasing the HD
> upgrade module by first half of 2010 but at this time I just flat
> can't guarantee the timing. I have one up and running in my home and
> it is really sweet to have my HD cable box available home wide, but
> the prototype I have is a $10,000 unit (long story as it is kludged
> together)... Our plan is to be <<$500 per channel but I just flat don't trust the engineering dates yet.
>
> This will sound bizarre, pointing you to competition, but if you need
> something sooner, ZeeVee has a component input box just releasing for
> about $1000 per channel (still pricey but less than half of their
> pro-box)... I've helped a number of customers integrate a Zeevee box
> with our Xtender (you still need whole home control and they just
> don't provide that.)
>
> Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love for you to buy an SD box
> today - and I'm sure you will love it (pic quality is spectacular when
> installed correctly), but I don't want you to buy it solely on getting
> the HD upgrade in March - we will do our best but I don't want a dis-satisfied customer.
>
> Let me know if you want to play with the BOCS/ZeeVee combo as I'd need
> to get you a BOCS with different firmware.
>
> Thanks
> David Feller

Question:
"What I really need now is to take my analog component outputs... and convert them to a signal that can be viewed on a digital TV and/or analog TVs with OTA converter boxes"

Answer
[DF] That is a problem actually - OTA converter boxes decode/demodulate ATSC only (The standard used for air transmission). Cable companies (as well as both ZeeVee and BOCS) currently use QAM. So a standard OTA converter will not decode these signals. Good news is that a large number of digital TVs sold in the US in the last couple of years also have a QAM tuner built in. Why QAM? It is what is currently available - the chips to do the modulation are the heart of the system, and you can imagine that there are a variety of QAM needs in the cable industry for smaller lower cost transmitters, but since ATSC is air transmission only, those are very large very expensive devices and we are only now creating demand for bringing those components to the consumer market. (Stay tuned - it would be a real shocker to the market if someone came out with an ATSC modulator)

QUESTION:
" My plan was to convert the component output(s) to digital via the BOCS.
The output of the BOCS would go to my TVs and the input of the TVPAL DVR recorder (which is a digital only input). I could then view/record which ever input was selected on the BOSC. The recorded material could then be played back at will using the BOSC selected to the TVPAL DVR recorder input. All TVs would then see what was recorded."

Answer
[DF] I don't fully understand here (a small diagram would be helpful), but I looked up the DTVPAL (I assume this is it http://www.dtvpal.com/) In which case you are in trouble as the specs for this say it receives ATSC only (See the above answer) The dtvpal is ONLY good for recording off-air shows...

Sorry for the length but there is some good stuff in here on QAM vs ATSC

David

David Feller

09-08-09, 03:51 PM

Thanks Dave!

Another question-
I just realized , i have DirecTV boxes in all the rooms, so what do i need to do?
I have a single 3 LNB - oval dish that has 4 lines down, and splitted into 8 zones , so what do i have to do to use this system?

Wilson:
I've tried to put some info on how DirecTV works along with how BOCS integrates up on our Wiki site - www.bocsco.com/support
But there might actually be more up there than you need (or want to learn)...

IF you are using a standard multiswitch (4 lines in 8 out of a single device - usually says Zinwell on it), it is difficult to share the same wires. Long story, but DirecTV uses 250-850Mhz to carry HD signals and each box needs its own cable back to the multiswitch, two if it is a DVR.
So you have two options - and I regularly do both types.
Put all your Sat boxes in one place (usually under your main TV so it can get HD) put the Xtender there, and distribute to the rest of the house exclusivley with BOCS. Usually folks put 2 or 3 DirecTV boxes in that location and get rid of any others you have.

OR - install a SWM-8 multiswitch with off-air input (www.weaknees.com has them in stock) and you can plug the xtender into that directly to distribute to every TV along with proper diplexers. (Special ones are required as the SWM box communicates back up to the switch at 2MHz)

Let me know if you need more specific help.

heffneil

09-08-09, 04:57 PM

David Feller

09-08-09, 11:17 PM

The guy from DirecTV told me I couldn't have cable and directv on the same line! GRRRR I just spent $900 on a wireless HDMI extender that I used over COAX because I needed to steal back one of the coax for Comcast. Darnit. I hate DirecTV!!! The installers are the worst.

Neil

Neil:
I've had some bad experiences with them, they seem to be good guys but are trained to say no if an install is outside their "standard equipment plan". DirecTV seems to only train on the equipment they are pushing at the time.
Just for clarity, the SWM8 switch WILL allow you to share cable and satellite ont eh same line -
I always keep an extra SWM8 in my trunk for installs just like yours.

This might sound arrogant, but I've decided the only way to really help folks out on my product is to know more about DirecTV and Dish than their installers do. I went and spent a few days with their "master trainer"...

David

David Feller

09-08-09, 11:20 PM

David Feller

09-08-09, 11:24 PM

Hey all, a little advice on etiquette:
This thread is getting pretty long, would it be ok if I started 2 or 3 new threads maybe BOCS-HD questions, BOCS technical, BOCS reviews
I could start each with a post that references the applicable parts of this one.

Or - is that bad form - I do tech support on my own site but since some folks seem to prefer to post questions here I'm happy to answer, but I don't want to take advantage of AVS site for my own support needs...

"Help me be a better poster"...

David

robertmee

09-09-09, 08:30 AM

I'd keep it in one thread for certain. And should probably just keep this thread going. The AVAtrix thread is 470+ posts long, so it's nothing detrimental for a thread to grow long. You might ask the forum moderators to change the title to "The official BOCs thread" similar to the AVAtrix thread.

David Feller

09-09-09, 05:29 PM

Good advice, I'll keep it all in one place -
I asked admin to change the name of this thread and they said no... So I started a new one with just an index - I'll try to keep it updated with what is posted in this thread.

DF

heffneil

09-09-09, 06:54 PM

David Feller

09-09-09, 08:57 PM

David,

Can a supercombiner cause enough of a DB loss to wreak havoc on my cable? I asked before what the DB loss was but yesterday out of the blue the cable and the modem started acting really flaky. I removed the supercombiner from the line today and everything is working ok? Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Neil

Neil:

There is about 1dB loss on the downstream side and about 2dB loss upstream so you really should not notice much and it definitely does not change over time.
I know it sounds like a pass-off, but since our gain should not change over time, it is more likely that your cable signal dropped somewhat - If a tech was in the area either adding new customers or balancing the signal, sometimes they adjust how much signal comes into your home.
Even though we do have a reverse channel activated (0-50Mhz passes well upstream), we recommend that all cable modems and voip modems are tapped (split) before the supercombiner with a dedicated line to those modem(s). That is actually the proper install procedure for those digital devices and any cable tech that did not do that was negligent.

I'm always more than happy to send another supercombiner if you suspect an issue with that - but I don't think I've ever seen one go bad in the field.
So - try the split off before supercombiner for the cable modem and let me know if that fixes things - if not let me know and I'll take the next step to get you back up and running solidly.

DF

heffneil

09-09-09, 10:06 PM

David Feller

09-10-09, 10:41 AM

I just wanted to ask. I have an appointment with Comcast on Friday. Isn't that fast :). Anyway I wanted to try without the supercombiner. My signal is obviously a problem considering I have two drop amps. Anyway I will have the comcast tech check the signal before and after the supercombiner just to see.

One thing I wanted to confirm is that increasing the signal strength or clarity on the supercombiner couldn't cause a problem?

Thanks!

Neil

There is a little drop in the supercombiner but with a decent signal for your home, it definitely should not pose a problem.

A few pointers - to hold the Comcast guy to and how to best amplify...
You should have at least +10dB and preferrably +15dB across the entire cable spectrum coming into your home - watch him carefully as lower channels sometimes droop to much lower power - they are supposed to check that and then go adjust the tilt in their system if it is too far from that. And that is BEFORE any drop amp in your home. The comcast folks really like to get lazy, put in an amp and say everything is ok.

The problem is that amps amplify both signal and noise and while the power may look good on a meter, the noise (which the meter can also measure) is also amplified and your signal quality goes down. Drop amps should ONLY be used to compensate for a lot of splitting.

As for how/where to amplify I'm very much an advocate of doing all amplification at one place - preferrably in one amplifier if needed, and using a good quality amp (truspec or pico macom +15DB with reverse channel no more reverse loss than -1dB - most are about $35 - if you pay less or buy at the local megamart you will regret it)...

I did a thread on amplification - specifically in response to getting rid of hum bars but I think it is a good read for anyone. It is HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17149378#post17149378)

As for the Supercombiner, they seem to be pretty bulletproof, but they are, after all, electronic components and are subject to ESD at least. If you even suspect you have aproblem with excess noise, too much drop or anything else, let me know and I'll gladly ship you another one to try.

Oh - one more thing. I typically recommend this hookup.
in from cable TV comany
tap off for cable modem (usually a 12dB tap
In to RF-IN of Supercombiner
Wire to Xtender's ANT-IN port to the Xtender port on Supercombiner
RF-Out of Supercombiner to Amplifier input
Amp out to splitter(s)

That way the Xtender channels and the CATV signals get amplified together. The reason is that the Supercombiner has a -50dB filter to get rid of the FM band. But consider what happens if you put the amplifier before the supercombiner and you start with a strong signal (+20dB) - it gets amplified to +35dB then we filter it down 50 dB to -15dB. Well, -15dB is within the discrimination window of many TVs and will cause interference with the BOCS channels. This game is kind of a Zen - it is about balance. Get all the signals about the same up front, amplify them all together in one place, split and distribute - all to get the best possible signal.

Long answer I know - but hope that helps a little.

And I'm MORE than happy to be available for when you Comcast guy is there - keep my cell number handy - I can go another level deeper with him to make sure he gets you what you need.

David Feller
I've been thinking of having a cable meter for "loan" - that I can ship out to folks who want to borrow one - this would be a good place to use one. I might take that up again.

heffneil

09-10-09, 11:26 AM

Thanks for the info. My signal is so poor that they had to put the amp before for the cable modem.

The way I had it was cable in to Supercombiner then out to a two way splitter. The two way goes to two drop amps and each amp is 1 x 4. Off of one of the amps is the cable modem. Everything was working well for a while but now it seems to have died. More to come tomorrow!

Thanks,

Neil

David Feller

09-15-09, 05:16 PM

Howdy all:
Thought I'd pass along an invitation - I'm going to be at the Houston Home and Garden show this weekend - it is at the Reliant center Friday, Sat and Sunday.

I'll also be teaching a short seminar on whole-home distribution discussing the AVAtrix, ZeeVee, and BOCS systems - at least in abbreviated form for the casual home tinkerer.

If any of you are in the area, I'd love to meet you in person - and there will be a full up BOCS system at the Amperor booth (#454).

They are giving away free "VIP" tickets - just go to the main show site HERE. (http://www.thehomeandgardenmarket.com/)

I'd love to meet you -

David Feller

LogicL77

09-23-09, 09:57 PM

David Feller

09-24-09, 12:02 AM

David, I'm looking to view and control 2 pc's and an STB with BOCS.

PC #1 for DVR functions via MythTV
PC #2 to view and control several IP security cameras I have around the house
Regular STB from the cable company.

Question is, what types of PC remotes are supported by BOCS? Are there any preferred brands that you know work well or have codes for the BOCS remote?

Thanks,

Lewis

I need to look into MythTV - I havn't used it myself yet.
The good news is that almost all Windows PCs use the standard "Media Center PC IR codes". Our remotes (and the MediaHub itself) all have learning capability built in - (exceptional learning by the way) so I'll wager you will have no trouble (or nothing I can't walk you through).
The only product I've ever had trouble with was the Cisco PNG200 STB but I now have a new version of firmware that solves that issue as well.
I think I rambled a little, but bottom line, you should be able to get it to do anything you like.
My cell is (720) 206-4114 if you want to ask any questions or need help during setup.
Good luck
Oh - and there is a promo going on - if you go to www.bocsco.com/tivo.php there is a coupon code there that gives a discount and a free remote.

David

LogicL77

09-24-09, 01:32 PM

Thanks for the fast reply David. I have a windows media center pc remote running on my MythTV system, so I suspect I will be ok.

I already placed an order for a BOCS on amperordirect and ordered an additional remote. Oh well, missed out on a nice deal. Thanks anyway.

Lewis

David Feller

09-25-09, 11:47 AM

So, how about you write something up about your integrating BOCS with a MythTV system so we all can learn from it, I'll send you a free remote for your troubles. Just a thought.

David

LogicL77

09-25-09, 10:59 PM

So, how about you write something up about your integrating BOCS with a MythTV system so we all can learn from it, I'll send you a free remote for your troubles. Just a thought.

David

David, I'll take you up on that offer. I received the BOCS today and I will install and set it up tomorrow. I will post my setup experience with MythTV shortly afterwards.

Ambywahwah

09-25-09, 11:34 PM

Good work

LogicL77

09-27-09, 11:21 AM

Ok. Got the bocs system setup in about 20 minutes. Before I post a more indepth review,maybe someone here can offer some suggestions.

I plugged in one of my pc's (this one runs vista) to the BOCS Red via TV-out composite from the video card. 2 issues:

1st issue: I can't get the picture to fill any TV screen ( I have 3 HD LCD's, ranging from 37" to 19"). On every tv, there is a border around the picture. Every resolution I try up to 1024x768 (max for tv-out via composite for my vid card) does this. Is there any adjustments that can be done to the BOCS? Or does anyone have any recommendations for a VGA to Composite converter that will provide a good 16:9 widescreen picture?

2nd issue: I haven't tried the other channels yet, but on the red channel, I see a line that scrolls up and down the screen. Don't know what it is, but my other cable channels it is not present.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Lewis

************************

Update 9/28:
OK, fixed the 1st issue. Bad video driver was causing me issues. Went back to an older driver and I'm able to scale properly on all tv's.

2nd issue: did a search here on hum bars. found lots of info, including some posts by David. I will be checking my cable box outside and see if my grounding is correct. Hopefully this issue will be fixed soon and I will post a full review.

In any case, the BOCS system is exactly what I needed. Picture Quality is very good. Works great and the WAF is through the roof!!!

David Feller

09-30-09, 01:56 AM

2nd issue: I haven't tried the other channels yet, but on the red channel, I see a line that scrolls up and down the screen. Don't know what it is, but my other cable channels it is not present.

2nd issue: did a search here on hum bars. found lots of info, including some posts by David. I will be checking my cable box outside and see if my grounding is correct. Hopefully this issue will be fixed soon and I will post a full review.

In any case, the BOCS system is exactly what I needed. Picture Quality is very good. Works great and the WAF is through the roof!!!

Very cool - I'm extremely glad you like it.
As for the bar - I'd suggest turning up the BOCS "power" a bit and see if you can just overpower whatever noise is in your system (kind of inelegant but what the heck) -
Grab any BOCS remote, hold down MENU and "1" until the power plight comes on - then press the up arrow (just above OK) 4 or 5 times then hit OK - that will turn the output power up to full. Worth a shot at a quick fix so you dont have to track down the real grounding problem.

David

David Feller

09-30-09, 01:59 AM

David Feller

10-06-09, 05:00 PM

heffneil

10-06-09, 05:43 PM

Yes I am sorry. I thought I emailed you directly but the new supercombiner fixed the problem and I need to send you back the old one. If you could email me the address I would appreciate it. I have it in a package ready to go back to you.

Otherwise that is working. I still need to fix the repeating button issue on my SageTV box. I didn't try your suggestion just yet but I certainly need to!

Thanks!

Neil

David Feller

10-06-09, 05:48 PM

Excellent!!

On the Sage TV, let me know if the suggestion does not work, I think I found some IR codes fro Sage and could compile a special version of firmware with them in it if you have recurring troubles. I'm guessing the reprogramming will work though, as I have a few other folks recently who purchase BOCS for their SAGE systems with no troubles.

Don't forget, a free remote for you for everyone you refer!

David

heffneil

10-06-09, 05:53 PM

I do still have signal problems before all the gear! I had comcast out to look at it. What a joke. I have to tell the comcast guys how to do their job and test the lines. They don't have a good answer as to why I am losing so much signal other than to say it is a long run. For now everything is working but my cable modem is iffy at times and it is before the supercombiner!

Thanks!

Neil

ahill

10-09-09, 01:09 PM

David Feller

10-09-09, 01:29 PM

I'm very interested in BOCS.

I'm currently modulating SD via an older ChannelVision product, but Comcast recently went all digital, and now the modulator stomps a bunch of channels.

My question for David & Others:

Comcast is now requiring a DTA (cheap STB) for each and every TV that doesn't have a full-blown STB. The DTA that Comcast provides only has RF output (no component).

Questions:

- The DTA at each TV will not pass through the BOCS channels. Is there a way to route it around the DTA (I've tried ChannelVisions 3101, which splits the cable before the DTA and routes the cable around the DTA via 230MHz high pass filter, but that stomps the BOCS channels). I've looked around for an 88MHz high pass filter, but can't find one.

- I considered modulating a couple of DTAs via the BOCS, but the DTA doesn't have component output, only RF/Cable.

Any ideas?

Thanks
Andy Hill

I've not looked into the DTAs they are handing out, but for simplicity's sake I think the application is like a cable card (I know that might not make much sense but bear with me)...

My suggestion would be to Use a couple of "real" STBs in a central location and let BOCS modulate those back onto the cable using the supercombiner. Then at each TV you can choose to use BOCS only (no DTA), or use a simple 2 way splitter and feed one into the DTA and one into the TV. But your TV only has one tuner input? (Some have two - a cable and an antenna - turns out channel 3 is the same for both so you might be in luck) - if it only has one, (And this sounds insane) - you just found a use for that old VCR in the basement - use it as a tuner and come out Composite to the TV.

Kind of a kludge so I'd just stick with putting a couple of real STBs on BOCS to route around.

Oh, and why does the DTA not tune in BOCS channels? Because BOCS channels are analog and the DTA only tunes in digital channels.

Does this all make sense?
Feel free to PM me or call me (720) 206-4114 with questions.

Bottom line, the whole DTA rollout has really been a huge success for us - BOCS really makes the transition to digital better.

David

Erik Garci

10-09-09, 01:58 PM

if it only has one, (And this sounds insane) - you just found a use for that old VCR in the basement - use it as a tuner and come out Composite to the TV.
Or, instead of adding a VCR, you could simply add an RF A/B switch box (DTA ==> A, BOCS ==> B), and the switch's output goes to the TV's only RF input.

David Feller

10-09-09, 02:00 PM

I try hard not to do a lot of marketing on the forum - support, expertise etc are my goals, but there is a good deal going on if any of you have been on the fence on buying a BOCS system. (Sorry for those that just bought one) -

There are apparently 4 refurb units going for $220 each on an AVS classified ad here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=11660) from our Distributor - Thats over $100 off I think. They were units from a recent show so i nused car parlance they are "very low mileage"...

Caught me by surprise or I would have given more heads up. First come first serve I'm sure.

I'll put this in the index post as well...

David

I'm catching a bit of 'crap' because the refurb units are apparently gone. I guess the deal was a pretty good one after all. So, I called the distributor and they gave me a coupon code I could give out to folks who missed the deal. Just PM me and I'll make sure you are taken care of.

(If you already sent me a PM/email nice or otherwise, I'll send you the coupon code proactively)

[EDIT] Yes, the coupon code would give you a new unit for the price of the refurb deal.

David

David Feller

10-09-09, 02:07 PM

Or, instead of adding a VCR, you could simply add an RF A/B switch box (DTA ==> A, BOCS ==> B), and the switch's output goes to the TV's only RF input.

Dang it, sometimes the simple answers get overlooked. I've even seen IR controllable RF switches. That is perfect. Thanks for the eyes...

David

xlurkr

10-10-09, 05:01 PM

Now be prepared to get some "crap" from refurb buyers like myself, depending on the condition of the unit (I haven't received it yet.)

David Feller

10-12-09, 11:41 AM

Now be prepared to get some "crap" from refurb buyers like myself, depending on the condition of the unit (I haven't received it yet.)

They should be pristine - other than a little of that cinnamon/sugar donut dust - there was a vendor an aisle away and frankly I couldn't help myself - repeatedly... I really need to find another show soon...

You have my word, find anything at all you don't like and I'll make sure you get a new one.

David

baf01

10-12-09, 02:57 PM

David Feller

10-12-09, 03:04 PM

This question is slightly off topic but I believe it is relevant since it would only really come up through use a device like the BOCS Xtender.

Does any one kow how to use the IR remote for two cable Set Top Boxes (STB) that are locate next to or near each other? I would like to use the Xtender to distribute two SA8300 DVRs to the TVs through out my home. In this way I can avaoid some conflicts and reduce the number of DVRs. Presently I have 4 DVRs and they are often used to record the same popular shows.

Do STBs like the SA8300 have some way to use somesort of alternate code set?
Thanx!

With the BOCS unit in particular, it has independent outputs to each device - meaning you could have all three of it's inputs loaded with identical DVRs and only the one meant to get the "Channel up" (or whatever) will get it. We switch the outputs of the IR bugs independently. Only caveat is you sometimes need to shield the light on the end of the IR bug so it does not shine into more than one box - anything from $.01 of black electrical tape to a $5 fancy plastic molded cover would work.

With other systems you would have to use the individual addressing systems built into many STBs - DirecTV and Dish both have 6 or 7 I think independent IR codes not sure about your particular brand of SA box though.

Let me know and I'd be happy to research it for you.

David

Onk Yo

10-15-09, 07:58 PM

David Feller

10-15-09, 10:07 PM

Well this sounds like it's exactly what I need. My question is this:

If I have a PC as one of the inputs/channels, is there a way to control the pc with the BOCS remote or do I need a wireless mouse/kb for that? Anyone know if it is possible to use a wireless mouse/kb from downstairs to a pc that is upstairs?

Thanks.

Absolutely - but what you need to do "wirelessly" governs the equipment you need.
Most folks that hook up a PC are displaying media center, boxee or another media player application - all of which we have codes for. Worst case, if your PC does not already have an IR receiver, you would need to pick one up (many USB connected options are available for about $30 - for instance from hauppauge)...
If, however, you want "more" - wireless mouse and some way to enter text say into a web browser (media center lets you do a rudimentary job by the way), you would need a better wireless Keyboard/mouse or something that comes close. There are some "long range" combos available, but at best I've only gotten 30' or so out of the ones I've tried. So I'm using two different solutions in my home - X10 has a pretty darn good wireless remote that has mouse and a pop up keyboard for pretty cheap - works home wide pretty well but you aren't typing a long email with it. Option 2 is a USB extender - I picked up a powerline deal - one side plugs into the PC, other end plugs into any power outlet in the home and I can plug my USB keyboard right in. Works well, but frankly I have no idea where to get more - I traded a guy a BOCS unit for it way back.

Hope this helps -

And if you think this is something you need, you ought to act pretty quick - Amperor has specials still going on this week. I'm not sure which is best right now but PM me and I can look into it for you.

David

Onk Yo

10-16-09, 12:11 AM

gilf22

10-16-09, 10:20 AM

David Feller

10-16-09, 11:17 AM

Yeah, I would just need to access Media Center or equivalent so that should be good. I will be building the pc at some future date so I can make sure it has what is needed.

One other thing. I am going to use my cable to get an ethernet connection to a different spot using MoCA on two of my cable connections. Will this conflict with BOCS at all?

I just found the link to the IR/USB module - always hard to find on the Hauppague site http://registration.hauppauge.com/webstore/accessories2.asp?product=mce_remote
It comes with a media center remote that you can probably just chunk (as you will be using the BOCS remote) - then when you install BOCS use the HP code under DVR - that runs media centers - computer already knows how to decipher those codes...

MOCA - no problem, if I recall, MOCA uses different frequencies that do not conflict with BOCS. There is another thread with all the details on using MOCA this way - although if there is any possible way to run a CAT6, that will always work better.

David

David Feller

10-16-09, 11:26 AM

I just tested my Addesso WKB-300UB RF keyboard which I use to control my HTPC. It worked everywhere on the main floor, in the basement it worked about 30-32 feet from the HTPC. I built the HTPC about 1.5 years ago and have never changed the batteries in the keyboard (4 AAA). The keyboard goes to sleep when not in use and to wake it you hit the "Enter" key first. It has a built in track ball but no number pad. I hope this info helps. Gil

Gil:

Very nice, I'm going to pick one up - sounds like a good product.
And for the benefit of others (after some searching) the part number is actually WKB-3000UB and they are about $60
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=WKB-3000UB&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=15752208005168659350&ei=DZDYSv2CFI7ONb_G0egH&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBsQ8wIwAw#scoring=tp

David.

David Feller

10-19-09, 02:30 PM

Gil:

In case you are the same Gil that left a message on our website (www.bocsco.com) about how to change modulation frequencies -
Actually it is pretty simple -
1) Hold down "Red" and "CH-" at the same time until the power light on the BOCS remote comes on
2) Enter the channel numbers you want three digits each like this - if you want channels 64, 66, 68 (remember they need to be two channels apart) enter 064066068 then hit OK
3) If you want to switch from CATV to OTA modulation frequencies you can change that too - see the user manual here.

Keep in mind, that we purposely block allowing you to use frequencies below about channel 55 (You can look up exactly which one in the manual) since harmonics created tend to knock out higher channels although I can provide you instructions on how to modify the BOCS if you ever want to modulate lower.

Let me know if this was helpful

David

gilf22

10-19-09, 05:32 PM

Yes I left the message, waited for an answer, but it was about lunch time when I posted. Wife called me for lunch shortly after I posted. I was going to resend today but got tied up. Thanks for the info, I will try it when the unit arrives. Thanks, Gil

baf01

10-20-09, 08:28 AM

David Feller

10-20-09, 05:57 PM

I am having difficulty progamming the remote for some devices. I had no problem with any of my TVs and the cable box (SA8300) was not too difficult. But I can't seem to get the remote programmed for a ROKU DVP (Neflix) or for a WDTV. The list of codes included does not seem to cover these and the scanning options (AUX, DVD CBL) don't help either. Does anyone have the codes or directions for these two devices?

Oddly enough, I have both devices:
(As a side note the Netflix video selection is really bad and I've had trouble with the WDTV box not syncing audio and video on some of my older movies)... But neither of those codes is "standard" but both can be learned - I've learned them both into the BOCS and the remote.

The detailed written instructions are in the Users Manual (http://www.bocsco.com/docs/xtender_xanual_v4.5.pdf).
And there are videos about how to learn into BOCS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmfvJ8Y1gkc) (if the BOCS unit controls the device) or learning into the remote itself (If you control it directly with the remote using IR in the same room as the remote.(Can't find that video - but you do it the same way except you point the remotes into each other.

Let me know if you have any troubles

David

David Feller

10-26-09, 10:59 PM

Hey all -
I just put up a new "virtual BOCS" page - and frankly, I'd love all of your input...
I had to go learn how to do flash and actionscript to build a home system that actually works. Should answer a lot of the questions I get via PM around here.
Yes - I'm the cheesy host on the side :-)

www.bocsco.com/virtualbocs.php

Seriously - feedback is welcome.

David Feller

baf01

10-27-09, 08:07 AM

David Feller

11-09-09, 06:13 PM

I am having some interference on some TVs at some locations. First instance the red channel is clear throughout the house except on the "local" TV. The blue channel is clear everywhere. But the green channel is distorted everywhere. Channels 14, 96, and 98 are used on my cable system but I don't care about them (CSPAN, shopping, etc.). I understand that I could use different channels but I would have to get an unfiltered Supercombiner and then my own filters. Is that correct? Where does one get an unfiltered Supercombiner? Have others overcome these issues?

Howdy baf01:
Terribly sorry for the late response - embarrasing I missed this for so long.

Two things to do:
1) The remote at the "local tv" (The remote that controls the TV connected to the "local-tv" Coax) needs to be set as the local master. Hold down Menu and VOL+ together until the power light comes on then press OK. Long story short, there was a techincal hurdle that we could not overcome and that output (local-tv) actually is switched between "BOCS channels" and "CATV" depending on the last button you pressed on that remote. That should clear up all the channels on the local-tv
2) For remote locations, try boosting the output power of the BOCS unit - hold down Menu and "1" until the power light comes on (any BOCS remote), then press the up arrow (just above OK) or down arrow until you get a signal level that looks good throughout the home. Be sure to press OK before the 10 second timeout to save your setting.

If #2 does not provide enough power for your entire home, a catv amp can be placed between the "RF-out" of the supercombiner and the input of your splitter.

Feel free to give me a call at 720-206-4114 if you have mroe questions on this.

David Feller

David Feller

11-09-09, 06:18 PM

All:

Apparently, there were some dealers selling BOCS products on Amazon for "supercheap prices". Unfortunately they did not offer the full product package and some buyers got less than they thought they would get.

Specifically, the Amazon based dealers were not including the installation kit that includes the cable finder tool, the IR bugs, and all the accessory cables to hook up the BOCS unit.

Although none of those were authorized dealers (They were buying product from an overstocked distributor and offering quick turn sales off the books), we would like to offer to anyone that purchased via Amazon:

1) A Free cable-finder toolset
2) A Free set of IR bug cables

Just send me a copy of your receipt from wherever you purchased the system and I'll make sure you get everything you need to complete your installation.

It is critical to us that regardless of where you purchased, that you are happy with your system.

Thanks
David Feller

baf01

11-10-09, 11:58 AM

Thanx David for the help you provided me with my earlier questions. I did figure out on my own about the local master remote and that made the local tv work very well. I have not tried changing the signal level yet, but I am fairly certain that it will help as well. I guess if I had read the manual I would have figured all of this out right away.

I did have a good experience with Amperor. I ordered extra remotes and I had plenty of supporting cables for a complete install. I also found that I needed a repeater. Even though my home is fairly small, the odd shape caused me to shoot trhough two outside walls from a bedroom to the family room. I guess the stucco and wire mesh on the walls blocked the signal enough to make a ~40 ft. shot a little too weak. I put the repeater in a location such that the remote to repeater and repeater to Xtender were only through interior walls and all works well now. I also purchased the repeater through Amperor and that sale went well also.

Thanx for a great product and I can't wait for the HD module to come out.

Bruce

SeldomSeen31

11-10-09, 12:18 PM

Thanks David for all of the posting in regards to the BOCs system. The product seems fantastic and with it not being replace when HD is availble it seems like now is the time to buy (especially with that turkey day deal).

I have one question that maybe you or another forum member could answer that has nothing to do with your system but how I intend to use it.

Can a Directv hd20 or hd21 output over HDMI and composite at the same time? I would love to distribute my 2 hddvr boxes throughout the home to 3 upstairs SD tvs. But I don't want to lose out on the ability to watch HDTV locally. I tried google and didn't come up with anything and lugging a 32in SD TV down 3 flights of stairs to test it would be a lot of work.

Can anyone confirm if this can be done? If so I see no other hangups for my intended use. I will be adding some HDTVs down the road and the upgrade to HD with this system with add on devices makes now an ok time to buy.

Thanks.

David Feller

11-10-09, 03:30 PM

David Feller

11-10-09, 03:31 PM

JoshMKiV

11-13-09, 10:07 AM

David - Can we get an update on how things are going with the HD upgrade? Early 2010?

Thanks!

Josh

Ravz

11-23-09, 06:02 PM

David Feller

11-23-09, 06:28 PM

Hey Folks,

Ive googled this, and I'm probably dreaming, but is there a way to get a second tuner output out of this PVR? I know there are two tuners, because I can do PIP, and record one show while watching another. Now is there a way to get this second output from the box?

Also, David,, are you the same david as the guy on your website in the box?

Normally, no. While PVRs typically have two tuners, I'v eont seen one yet that had two output chips. I suppose it makes sense since they are pretty much designed to serve a single TV. Even a windows media center is only designed for one output although I've kludged one up with three video cards for just this purpose.

As for the www.bocsco.com/virtualbocs site - yes, embarrassingly that is me. My family and friends made fun of me mercilessly, especially for the "intro hand wave" but I thought it was a good attention getter. I found a company in England that, for about $500 will film a professional actor/ess and send me a flash video for that little box. So watch for a significant upgrade in that box...

That whole page was my first attempt at flash video and actionscript programming - a real blast.

DF

El Gabito

11-25-09, 09:37 AM

David - Can we get an update on how things are going with the HD upgrade? Early 2010?

Thanks!

Josh

Curious about this as well. System looks great, but worthless to me w/out HD.

One of the first posts said July I think (2009 I believe).

tstuckart

11-27-09, 02:03 AM

I was really ticked that I missed out on the $299 - 4 remote special after I finally talked the wife into it, then I found the Black Friday sale. Combining that with the BOCS09 coupon code was almost as good, so I just ordered the BOCS and 4 remotes.

Is it possible to upgrade the BOCS to multi-headed IR blasters?

Here is why I ask? I have a multi-source, multi-room AV receiver that I used to use the output to the 2nd room to feed a modulator into my cable system. That, combined with an IR repeater system allowed us to access all of my AV components throughout the house. As many of you have experienced, the move to all digital cable has really dorked that up. Anyway, the BOCS only supports 3 components without adding another BOCS. That has additional cost and you have to find 3 more free channels that won't cause digital cable issues. If I can connect my AV receiver up as one of the BOCS sources and then connect a blaster to that and several of my other components I could in theory have more than 3 components available in the system with the caveat that whatever was tuned in on the receiver would be the component in the receiver stack on that one channel throughout the entire house at that time.

Hope that makes sense? Has anyone tried something similar.

Thanks for your input,
Tony

blgarrison

11-28-09, 06:26 PM

I installed the BOCS system about 3 weeks ago and it has been great, however, my programming data has started to dissappear from my Comcast SA8300 DVR about once a week. It could be a problem with the DVR box, but I wanted to see if anyone else had experienced this. I have gone through a series of resets while rerouting the cable feed around the BOCS unit, but I still do not have a defined sequence to make the programming data come back. I just see "No Data Available" in the guide and on the channel tag.

Could the data be filtered by the BOCS gear?

UPDATE - 11/29/2009
In order for the program data to appear, I need to power off the BOCS unit and reboot the DVR. Once the DVR is up with the fresh data downloaded, I can then turn on the BOCS unit. I guess this will have to be a weekly task unless I can come up with something with BOCS.

UPDATE - 8/23/2010
Calling Comcast every month to reset my STB and having to unplug the BOCS unit after every power failure was getting old. Today, Comcast could not get my STB to reset, so I gave in and got a new one. i still have the same problem even with the new Cisco RNG200. The BOCS unit must be powered off in order for the Comcast box to boot and receive program data. Surely someone else has exoerienced this and can offer some advice.

TinyVK

11-29-09, 08:51 PM

ctrumm

11-30-09, 04:16 PM

David - Can we get an update on how things are going with the HD upgrade? Early 2010?

Thanks!

Josh

Hi Dave,

I am also curious if you have a new expected release date and maybe even a price point you are going for? I am on fence about getting one because as cool as it is if the HD never gets going its not worth it to me right now. Every TV I have in my house is HD and I would bet that alot of people who would get something like this have at least 2 HD sets if not more.

Thanks!

David Feller

11-30-09, 04:36 PM

Removed details -
HD still planned for "mid 2010".

DF

David Feller

11-30-09, 04:58 PM

DAVID, Not to worry about the Video. As a Hi-Tech Marketing guy, I would nominate you as the Product Marketing Manager Of The Year for all the AV Forum input & support.
I just ordered your product with the "Black Friday Special" and look forward to installing and using. I do have a quick question that has not been asked!

Any experience with RCN? I am switching from Comcast to RCN on Thursday and need to know if there are issues I need to discuss with installer or that I will need to know to install BOCS -THANKYOU Keep up the great support work, TVK

Very kind - I actually got sucked into AVS accidentally. Someone posted a nice review and I asked a few questions - features and the like. I've received an incredible number of feature and function suggestions and have quite a few folks contributing to the Pre-Wire eBook I'm working on. This place has turned out to be incredibly valuable. The key for me has been to try to stick to support and general help as my contribution to the forums and let the distributors do the salesy/marketing thing - that's my little seperation of Church/State...

As for RCN, I've not heard anything specifically regarding them other than in some areas they use the FM band for a few digital channels. Worst case, if you lose anothing valuable when BOCS is installed, you can always run one wire to supply a "clean, unfiltered" signal to the main STB. Check out this picture (crudely done, I apologize in advance). It bypasses any issues you might have.

Link to image HERE (http://www.bocsco.com/www/public/clean%20line%20install.jpg).

Good luck and let me know how it goes.

DF

tstuckart

12-01-09, 11:53 PM

David Feller

12-02-09, 11:36 AM

David, how come no response for my question? I've been really looking forward to your response. I find it difficult to believe that other folks haven't asked the same question already, but I have spent hours perusing the forum and haven't yet come across the answer.

Tony

Sorry - I just flat missed it - my sincere apologies.

What you outline should work just fine, in fact, there are a few "hidden" buttons that should allow you flexibility.
The IR outputs have plenty of drive to run the dual emitter cables (although we don't sell them they are readily available online).
You will notice a "shift" key - the little yellow up arrow... All the markings on the case that are yellow (A, B, C, D, +100 and a few others) are functions you can program for your receiver. i.e. maybe a, b, c, d are 4 input choices and choose something else to be volume. That way you don't lose any keys for the source device (Red, Green, or Blue). To accomplish this, program the IR code for the source device first, and then learn the receiver buttons in on top of that.

A Second BOCS works well and I can make a good deal if all you need is the BOCS itself (no cables, supercombiner remote etc) - and there is a way to wire it in that does not step on other digital channels. In fact, I just got through writing up a document on how to do just that - I'm posting that document HERE (http://www.bocsco.com/www/public/Second%20BOCS.pdf) for anyone that would like to review it.

By the way, the use of the BOCS09 coupon in conjunction with the black friday deal I understand was accidental - I think you have to order enough to put the total up to $250 before the coupon works, so you have to order the black friday deal and add in at least 3 remotes - then the coupon will work making the remotes about $30... They extended that special till Friday.

Good luck - and my phone is 720-206-4114 if you have trouble hooking anything up or programming those remotes.

DF

El Gabito

12-02-09, 01:51 PM

Removed details -
HD still planned for "mid 2010".

DF

Bummer. :(

tstuckart

12-03-09, 12:19 AM

Sorry - I just flat missed it - my sincere apologies.

What you outline should work just fine, in fact, there are a few "hidden" buttons that should allow you flexibility.
The IR outputs have plenty of drive to run the dual emitter cables (although we don't sell them they are readily available online).
You will notice a "shift" key - the little yellow up arrow... All the markings on the case that are yellow (A, B, C, D, +100 and a few others) are functions you can program for your receiver. i.e. maybe a, b, c, d are 4 input choices and choose something else to be volume. That way you don't lose any keys for the source device (Red, Green, or Blue). To accomplish this, program the IR code for the source device first, and then learn the receiver buttons in on top of that.

A Second BOCS works well and I can make a good deal if all you need is the BOCS itself (no cables, supercombiner remote etc) - and there is a way to wire it in that does not step on other digital channels. In fact, I just got through writing up a document on how to do just that - I'm posting that document for anyone that would like to review it.

By the way, the use of the BOCS09 coupon in conjunction with the black friday deal I understand was accidental - I think you have to order enough to put the total up to $250 before the coupon works, so you have to order the black friday deal and add in at least 3 remotes - then the coupon will work making the remotes about $30... They extended that special till Friday.

Good luck - and my phone is 720-206-4114 if you have trouble hooking anything up or programming those remotes.

DF

No worries. I very much appreciate your response. I might want to take you up on the 2nd BOCS, but I want to check out the system first. I'm anxious to play with it but the wife is going to make me keep it under the tree until Xmas. :(. Its going to be hard to wait that long without playing with it, but I'll try.:D

Thanks again,
Tony

tbielowicz

12-03-09, 11:33 AM

David,

Will I still be able to use my Tivo remote or will the IR blaster cable interfere with the original device remotes?

Thanks,
Theo

David Feller

12-03-09, 11:46 AM

David,

Will I still be able to use my Tivo remote or will the IR blaster cable interfere with the original device remotes?

Thanks,
Theo

Meaning, if the IR blaster end is stuck on top of the IR receiver on your Tivo, will your Tivo remote still be able to get through to the receiver in the Tivo?

Yes - I had the ir blaster ends made a color that is transparent in the IR band. Although it looks dark, if you were to look at it through a digital camera it appears clear (good trick to make sure ir blasters are actually flashing by the way)...

You Tivo remote should not be affected at all.

Goodluck
DF

tbielowicz

12-03-09, 12:27 PM

David Feller

12-03-09, 05:24 PM

That was quick. I have a system in my cart ready to purchase. The only thing holding me back from hitting the order button is the HD capability.

I know you said, possibly around March and it will be under 500 for one HD source. How would it work? Will it be connected through one of the component connections on the back of the hub?

Thanks.

I have to start by saying you shouldn't buy something (like the basic BOCS system) on hopes that the HD version will be out at a given time on promises from anyone, including me. If the basic system does not give you what you need, please (honestly) don't buy it now. I know that sounds strange, but I've already had to push the date once (I posted the details of why previously) and no way will I guarantee anything as we are a small company (except you WILL owe taxes in April)...

That said, the current plan is an upgrade system - a stand alone HD modulator that basically replaces a channel of the basic BOCS system with its own HD version. Another strange thing is that I've been consistently recommending the ZeeVee system as a short term replacement until I have something to offer. I've had good luck integrating the two systems for folks who couldn't wait. They have a "consumer" version that runs $1000 a channel. Obviously if you are wanting more than about 2 channels it is suddenly cheaper to just go with a component switched matrix.

Hope I didn't turn you off, I just want to give info as I get it and not ever have to lay awake wondering what I promised someone.

DF

aeblank

12-03-09, 10:57 PM

What about those of us who are patient? $500/channel is worth waiting for...at least for me. I'm in no rush.

tbielowicz

12-04-09, 03:38 PM

David, I understand and didn't expect a promise. Just wondering how it would work in theory. Take a current BOCs install, where and what would the new connections be?

I did see the ZeeVee product, which is now $399 BTW, and that could always be an option in the future.

Thanks again.

ctrumm

12-13-09, 09:23 AM

Hi,

Got my BOCS this week and it is working well. The HD content from my HD Tivo is better than expected, even on my 50" plasma TV in my media room in the basement.

Regarding the HD add-on device will it be able to send the Dolby Digital (surround sound) over the coax as well? I am hoping it does as I can then use the optical out on my TV to get the sound to my receiver in my basement?

I am also curious on clarification on how an HD add on would work. Based on you most recent message I think what you are saying is that the HD would be a separate box entirely, but it would still make use of the super combiner. So if I were to purchase the HD unit it would sit next to my BOCS but not be physically connected in any way. It would take over a channel on the BOCS (lets say the green channel - 96) at the supercombiner level only?

I also looked at the ZeeVee option and the cheaper unit just handles video from you computer over the internet, the ZvBox 100. The ZvBox 150 is still around a $1000 (from what I can see) for the ability to use a standard HD component video source.

I agree a $500 is worth waiting for.

Thanks!

David Feller

01-18-10, 01:11 PM

Howdy all:

For all of you who have purchased a BOCS system, I have something new for you. I've received a lot of requests for new features - macros, new IR codes, "gee I really wish this button did THIS" etc. and I've not been able to respond to every one, so we decided to go Open Source on the remote control firmware.

I already experimented with one user (allowing him to make modifications), and the experience was so great that we decided to make it available to everyone. (My engineers are terrified by the way)...

Obviously not everyone is cut out to modify C code, compile and test it with reasonable documentation and offer it back up to the community, but my guess is that many in this forum are.

I've posted the details over in the "Remote Control" threads HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17950058#post17950058).
Basically, I've laid out the structure of the remote, provided that basic firmware layers, and if you decide you want to make changes (either for yourself or the community), I ask you to sign a simple agreement (that I'm currently working up - basically just says no guaranteed support) to get the full source code that is ready to compile.

If nothing else, you might like insight into how remote source code like this is written -

I would ask that all questions on the code, etc be posted over on the linked remote control thread.

David

S-dogg

01-18-10, 07:54 PM

David Feller

01-18-10, 09:48 PM

I'm thinking of adding some modulated channels to my setup, and I've been doing some research on the different products available. BOCS has made the short list, but I have a question about controlling the remote devices.

I understand the system uses RF remotes to communicate with the extender, but aside from initial setup, is there any need to communicate with the extender itself on a regular basis? I already have custom programmed universal remotes at each TV, and I'm not really interested in replacing them. But adding a distributed IR system would be trivial for me, and would handle the control of the remote devices without needing the RF remotes and the extender's control system.

Is what I'm suggesting possible? My assumption is that all three extender "channels" are active all the time, so there shouldn't be any need to access the extender itself except for setup issues.

You got it right - the channels are active all the time, and while our remotes provide kind of a "zen" ease of use - press Red to watch red channel, etc. That can easily be accomplished with universal remotes and a distributed IR system. In fact, I have plenty of folks that have programmed into their harmonys a "Red" button - it changes tv input to tuner, changes channel to 14 and then puts the remote into "dvr" mode... to simulate my UI (If you can call it a UI)...

One minor little thing, and it is probably very trivial but important to me: disregarding the issue with IR pickups and interference with plasma/LCD TVs - I've gotten very used to an RF interface. Yeah, this is incredibly lazy, but it irritates me to have to actually point a remote at something now. I like, espescially in bed, being able to leave the remote under the covers between us and not having to do the arm up high over your head, remote inverted in your hand to change channels.

Good news is that even disregarding the remote control system, a three channel modulator that works in the FM band (we are the only one out there - helps to not step on cable channels), puts out 30dB (high quality video), built in filter (normally runs you another $30), and has stereo/basic dolby can't be had for the same price. Amperor continues to run their holiday special...

Good luck with your choice - let us know how it goes.

David

S-dogg

01-19-10, 06:08 PM

You got it right - the channels are active all the time, and while our remotes provide kind of a "zen" ease of use - press Red to watch red channel, etc. That can easily be accomplished with universal remotes and a distributed IR system. In fact, I have plenty of folks that have programmed into their harmonys a "Red" button - it changes tv input to tuner, changes channel to 14 and then puts the remote into "dvr" mode... to simulate my UI (If you can call it a UI)...

One minor little thing, and it is probably very trivial but important to me: disregarding the issue with IR pickups and interference with plasma/LCD TVs - I've gotten very used to an RF interface. Yeah, this is incredibly lazy, but it irritates me to have to actually point a remote at something now. I like, espescially in bed, being able to leave the remote under the covers between us and not having to do the arm up high over your head, remote inverted in your hand to change channels.

Good news is that even disregarding the remote control system, a three channel modulator that works in the FM band (we are the only one out there - helps to not step on cable channels), puts out 30dB (high quality video), built in filter (normally runs you another $30), and has stereo/basic dolby can't be had for the same price. Amperor continues to run their holiday special...

Good luck with your choice - let us know how it goes.

David

Thanks for the good info David. You really have a great product on your hands here.

You make a good point about RF, especially when it comes to macros - nothing is worse than missing a step because you didn't point the remote at the screen long enough. Still, it's good to know that I have options.

My timeframe for purchase is 6-9 months (moving from an apt to a house), but that holiday deal is almost too good to pass up. Decisions, decisions...

David Feller

01-19-10, 06:55 PM

Quick update -
I announced recently that we had gone open source on the remote firmware and as I mentioned one user already dove in. What I didn't realize is the extent of what he did - we now have access to full macros - essentially giving this combo IR-RF remote the same capability as a basic harmony (no screen but it will do all the same things...

That might solve your issues in each room - I'll be posting more on this soon (as soon as I can really run his stuff through the ringer)..

DF

craigte

01-29-10, 10:22 PM

My BOCS experience turned out to be an awesome adventure… one that you may want to take as well!

The initial engagement:
Like many who made the jump to HD and added a DVR, I was frustrated that I could not access the stored shows in my bedroom. The thought of getting a second DVR and recording the exact same shows (not to mention paying more monthly fees to Comcast) just didn’t seem ideal. After searching the Internet, I came across the BOCS unit and it seemed like a perfect fit. Not only could I watch my recorded shows in the bedroom but I could eliminate my second media box that stores all my DIVX movies (thus eliminating the hassle of keeping them synchronized).

When my unit arrived, I quickly tore apart my media center, hooked up my unit, programmed my remotes (which are awesome because they truly were universal) and was up and running in no time flat.

BUT:
After showing my wife how the RED button made the bedroom TV function just like she was in the living room and how she could watch her soaps in peace when I wanted to watch a movie in the other room… life was great…. until she started using the 2nd remote I had purchased with the living room setup. We have a cable box/DVR combo and pressing the RED button in the living room meant the TV was no longer High Definition since the BOCS remote forces the TV to a tuner channel – even in the main TV room. Obviously, all you have to do is change the TV to HDMI input, but after many attempts of explaining that when in the living room, don’t press the RED button, press the CBL button and she would be still be in HD and have access to the DVR functions - that is of course unless she was previously watching a movie using the BLUE button, then she needed to change the input and then press the CBL button. It made perfect sense to me but after a couple more times of her pressing the RED button on the living room remote “Like I do in the bedroom” she declared my latest project a failure.

Surprise – Surprise:
I loved the new system and failure wasn’t an option, so I reached out to David Feller. I explained my dilemma and also added that I do software programming as a hobby and had an idea of how I could change the remote to solve my problem. I’m not sure who was crazier, me for making the request or him for agreeing to let me try. Either way, I am thankful that he took a chance and sent me the code as well as the hardware needed to modify the remote because here is what became of it:

What I (she) wanted:
Regardless of what room my wife is in, she wanted to push the RED button to watch her soaps. When she happens to be in the living room, this would mean pressing the RED button would cause the TV to select the HD input and make the CBL button active, regardless of what state the system was in. We have a HD-TV in the living room so when in there, she wanted her soaps IN HIGH DEFINITION!!!

To accomplish this, I would need to setup a sequence of commands that would be sent in order with a delay between each command… hang on a second… that sounds like what a high priced Harmony remote does. Could I make the BOCS remote go into a learning mode and capture sequences easily to be “replayed”? Could I store multiple sequences and associate them to other buttons?

Where I ended up:
To make a long story a little shorter, after a lot of programming, (and countless emails to David!), My BOCS remote does just what my wife wanted above. Not only that but it can now turn on my DVD player, change my TV input to DVD, turn on my surround sound system, change that input to DVD and make the DVD button active by simply pressing the GREEN button!!!

I can turn on my CD player, then my surround sound system, change the input to CD and have the AUX button that controls my surround system active, just by playing a AUX sequence!!!

If this all sounds confusing, the short version is this, I added:
· 4 new programmable buttons that will each accept up to a series of 8 commands with delays between each
· The ability to assign these sequences to the BOCS RED, GREEN or BLUE buttons – essentially letting you completely redefine what those three buttons do
· This results in a remote that can now be used in the main TV location and completely replace the need for a Harmony remote!

You can do it too:
If I have caught your interest… great! As a result of my success, David has decided to extend the offer to others that want to reprogram their remote. The code is well written and documented. Even with a rudimentary understanding of C++, changing remote functions is fairly straightforward. There is plenty of memory space available for more functions, and as a combination RF and IR remote with a spectacular basestation in the Xtender, it can be programmed to do just about anything. Home Automation, Security, lighting control, and of course entertainment control.

By the way, David provided excellent support and helped me through getting everything up and running.

Want the easy way out?
There are 3 options if you would like to take advantage of what I did (no C++ programming on your part).

1.) If you have the knowledge\tools\ability to flash your remote, I will send you the compiled file gratis.
2.) You could physically send me your remote (along with a small donation to help me save for my next BOCS unit and shipping money to get it back, say $15 total)
3.) I have new remotes, which have the sequencing capabilities already added, that I am selling for $49, which includes priority shipping.

My email address is remoteupdate@live.com - just drop me a note to make arrangements.

Also, if you have an idea for a good remote feature, I’m open to suggestions, as I understand the firmware pretty darn well now.

Craig

David Feller

02-01-10, 05:20 PM

Howdy:

Not sure if yall caught that last post, but I feel the need to boast a little. Craig took me up on my "open firmware offer" and, frankly, did some amazing things:

1) Addition of macro capability - program in a sequence of functions/keys
2) Ability to reassign BOCS buttons - can be input specific changes instead of just channels
3) Reprogrammed the AUX/Volume button so you can have independent control of an AV tuner...

Meanwhile, I went ahead and added a few needed upgrades as well - providing 10 discrete input buttons so you can have your TV go directly to an input rather than having to scroll through them, and changing the sequential TV input button to be active regardless of what mode you are in.

Result?

Now you can use a BOCS remote in the main room and NOT LOOSE HD. Previously I recommended not using a BOCS remote in the main room since it always tries to change the channel on the TV to the modulated channel - when in the main room what you really want is to go to HDMI1 (or whatever) - that is now possible.
Every remote in the home is now the same - even the main TV room
You can program sequences - i..e power on can now turn all your equipment on or off, pressing Blue can go to HDMI1, dim the lights, start the movie, and put the remote in Blu-Ray mode

Sound familiar? Yeah - like a Harmony remote

Very cool Craig!!
I've got this up and running in my home and it is spectacular - it says good things for the whole open source thing when a user can make something much better than is came OEM...

I did a little demo video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YASRnPY_9zA) and will have an update to the users manual that describes the change as well.

Craig is offering an upgrade service - you DO NOT need to upgrade the BOCS MediaHub firmware - only the remote. Or he will sell you a new remote with the new firmware in it already for your main room.

Questions?

David
YASRnPY_9zA

tstuckart

02-13-10, 11:28 PM

I'm trying to setup my Xtender to control a Comcast DTA model DC50X. This is one of the free boxes that they include in our area since almost all channels are now digital. Online searches show that many folks think that it is manufactured by Pace but I don't know for sure. I do know that none of the Pace codes listed in the library seem to work. It never turns off so it's very difficult to use a code search on and I can't seem to get the Xtender to accept any of the signals when I try to learn them in.

BTW, this DTA doesn't have any composite out so I've hooked it to an old VCR so that I can connect to the Xtender. This works fine and I can watch it thru the BOCS, but I can't control it via the BOCS which really defeats the purpose.

I do know that our series 2 TiVo is able to control one. In the TiVo system they have a choice for Comcast DTA that works. Surely I can't be the first to try this but I can't seem to find anything online to help. Any advice?

Thanks,
Tony

David Feller

02-13-10, 11:39 PM

Howdy - I just replied to the email (same text as here it looks like) you sent me.
I gave you a couple codes to try -
If your remote is a "grey" comcast remote it is the new XMP protocol and is covered by code 06078 (if the firmeare in your remote is new enough)...

But, I've also found the specific codes for that particular DTA and have a compiled upgrade code I can put in a remote for you. Bad news is that if we have to go that route, I'll need to upgrade a BOCS unit and remote and send it to you to swap out.

Either way we will definitely get it working for you.

But, since DTAs like that do not have composite out - only modulated on channel 3/4 - I strongly suggest swapping that unit out for a "real" STB from comcast (They are easily controlled by my unit and keeping from modulating twice in one channel will greatly improve video quality - I would think noticeably so... ) I checked and it is a difference of $2.50 a month for the better quality.

Let me know what you want to do and I'll definitely take care of you.

David

tstuckart

02-14-10, 01:43 AM

I just replied to your email response as well. Sorry for hitting both your email and here, but I have been at trying to set up my pair of BOCS units all day and have had one issue after another. To be fair, they have not all been with the BOCS and I do believe that I have a more complex than average setup.

Turns out that the reason that my TiVo isnt working fully with the BOCS is that the Tivo video out seemingly quite working as I started trying to set this up. Even the component out to my AV receiver stopped working. Very poor timing indeed.

Anyway, the DTC is one of the ones they provide free and has a smaller black remote. I'll probably need to upgrade to a real STB since I do already have one in this very same setup and it is working without issue.
http://home.comcast.net/~tstuckart/images/dta.jpg

Do we really have to purchase a code to allow the BOCS remotes to learn local TV codes?

Thanks,
Tony

tstuckart

02-14-10, 02:34 AM

Looks like I need an RF repeater. I have an extra supercombiner and install kit (minus one IR bug). Anyone out there have a RF repeater that they no longer need and would be interested in some kind of trade? You can email me at avsforum@stuckarts.com.

Thanks,
Tony

David Feller

02-14-10, 04:41 PM

I think there are two outstanding questions (let me know if I missed anything)

1) Do you have to pay for learning upgrade for the remotes - No - that is now free (we decided it was too difficult to regulate and all the new firmware has learning pre-enabled - not sure when that starts shipping. In the meantime, just email me the serial numbers for te remotes you want to unlock and I'll send you the codes for each.

2) Code for the Comcast DTA - I think you mentioned you were getting a firmware upgrade from Craig, I need to verify that his version has the 06078 code in it, and if it does not work, I found a code for the DTA and will swap out with you. I plan on grabbing one from Comcast this week to test and I'll let you know.

David

tstuckart

02-14-10, 07:08 PM

Thanks David. I was confused by the doc saying that I needed to purchase an unlock code to enable learning as I thought I had read somewhere that they had learning by default. Clearly none of my remotes do. I only sent 1 of my 5 remotes to Craig. Will that one come back with learning enabled due to the new firmware?

I'll send you the serials from the other 4 later today when I get back to the house. That's been part of my pain as it turns out that 2 of my TVs need to be learned in because they are not in the existing library.

After your advice on modulating twice, I'm going to check with Comcast on getting a full blown STB even though I hate the thought of paying them more on a monthly basis.

Looks like you can buy used dct700s on eBay but I'm leery of that. I chatted with a Comcast CSR earlier today and they said that they would activate a used STB for me. I'm just not sure I trust them. :confused:
http://home.comcast.net/~tstuckart/images/comcast_box.jpg

Tony

David Feller

02-15-10, 11:20 AM

I'm very interested to see if that works (the used cable box thing) - I've done it extensively with directv boxes (you have to make sure by getting the serial/box number to make sure it is in fact a purchased box and not a rented one someone is trying to sell - but they are easily activated. I've never thought of doing it with cable.

It is your call, but I plan on visiting the local comcast office today to see if I can get a DC50X - if so I'll be able to test new codes and get that working for you as well. The DTAs in the Boulder co area respond to the standard motorola code so I'm guessing you have a version with the XMP protocol - The remote is the key and now that I have a picture I can try to replicate.

I'll give you one more level of detail - we use a UEI blaster chip (which also does learning) - but when I ran into the issue the first time, UEI (which invented the XMP protocol by the way) said that their chips could not learn the XMP protocol... I'm hoping someone got fired by the way... So, when we run across a new XMP protocol we have to load the code into the blaster chip with a serial cable. Not a big deal, but not something that is currently easy for a user. In my spare time I'm working on a firmware upgrade that would allow you to hook the remote to your computer to do an upgrade but my current lack of spare time is hindering that project. So the short term answer is once get the code working I can ship you a replacement with it already programmed and upgrade the master firmware file so all new units that go out have it in it.

Probably more than you wanted to know.

David

tstuckart

02-15-10, 02:55 PM

Good info David. I don't think I have ever complained about too much information. :)
Also, thanks for the fast turn around on the unlock codes for the learning remote function.

I can honestly say that I have never received this level of service from any other company that I have ever purchased from. I dont know how you have any spare time. I'm a customer for life and will recommend your product (actually already have) to everyone I know.

Thanks again,
Tony

David Feller

02-15-10, 06:05 PM

Thanks for the kind words -
In my opinion, though, this is how it should be with EVERY company.

David

tstuckart

02-15-10, 06:21 PM

I just got back from the local Comcast office where I went to pick up a full STB. I asked the CSR if I could get a list of model numbers for compatible hardware that I could purchase myself. She couldnt give me one and said that she wouldnt even know where to buy one. I mentioned eBay and she said that they were all stolen property and if I tried to use one, that Comcast would just take it away and thank me for returning their property. Hmmm, who do I believe?

David Feller

02-15-10, 06:30 PM

So I also went to Comcast today - I could see the DTAs back on the shelf but they would not give me one. They said they are "shipping me 2" from the warehouse... Sorry but it looks like there will be a delay.
Goobers.

Ken H

02-20-10, 09:45 PM

Looks like you can buy used dct700s on eBay but I'm leery of that. I chatted with a Comcast CSR earlier today and they said that they would activate a used STB for me. I'm just not sure I trust them. :confused:You're instincts are correct. Comcast, or any other US cableco, will not activate a box they did not supply, unless it's one of two specific types of units; TiVo HD or Moxi, both of which need a cableco supplied CableCARD for use. This is the corporate policy for all US cablecos.

Boxes from ebay are not available for retail purchase in the US, and as such will not be activated for use on any US cable systems. You were told correct that a box on ebay is owned by a cableco, somewhere, and is stolen property.

There were supposed to be next gen CableCARD boxes available for retail purchase by now, called tru2way, but they have not been available as yet, and cableco support, which was also supposed to be in place by now, is also lacking in most areas.

A very few Canadian cablecos will activate select boxes, but it's on a case by case basis.

psisco

02-21-10, 10:10 PM

What is the latest news on HD availability?

psisco

03-16-10, 09:24 PM

I can't seem to get a response on the website chat guru or this forum regarding the availability of this HD option. Anyone out there????????

heffneil

03-16-10, 09:28 PM

David gets real wrapped up with stuff and super busy. He will be back sooner or later... hopefully when he is back he has good news on HD :)`

wdwms

03-16-10, 11:00 PM

I can't seem to get a response on the website chat guru or this forum regarding the availability of this HD option. Anyone out there????????

David and I chatted a few months back on this topic, can't remember the timeframe.. but I didn't want to wait so I went with HDMI over Dual Cat-6..

I put a HDMI 1x4 splitter at the source end; the input is HDMI from a Tivo S3. Coming out of the splitter I went into Tripp-Lite HDMI to cat 6 wallplat baluns to convert to the Cat6, and then ran the Cat6 to the TVs. Then at the TV the other wallplate balun and I was done. No extra power other than the 1x4 splitter. I used an existing IR over coax system from channel plus I already had in place to do the IR.

here is a pic of the distribution end, You can see the 3 HDMI baluns hooked up to the splitter. There is an Display end balun sitting next to the Tivo that I hadn't installed yet. The far left baluns carry L&R audio and Component Video to another room; each over 1 Cat6 (yes i know they are colored wrong, i didn't have Red Green and Blue RCA cables for the component video!! :)

Also the router & hub above have nothing to do w/the HDMI distribution; thats just my home network.

http://www.disneycorner.com/images/todd/hdmi.jpg

dbachman

03-18-10, 05:39 PM

I really like this system and I am still trying to wrap my brains around how my setup will work and connect with a receiver that is performing the component switching. I was thinking, perhaps wrongly, that you can still get HD to the display that is in the same room as the xtender and all the other components. My setup is as follows...

Infocus X9 720p projector with hdmi and component input
DVR with hdmi, component, composite out, and optical audio out
Denon Receiver with 4 hdmi in and 1 hdmi out and several component hookups
PS3

I am confused how the Denon receiver fits into the hookup. I plan to have everything hooked up in the basement under the stairs and want to maintain the HD connection to the projector and keep the surround sound when using the projector that is in the same room and also be able to get the HD tv stations to the projector when watching the big game. SD on the other TVs throughout the house is acceptable.

Would a component or hdmi splitter be necessary in this setup? I have browsed through the BOCS setup manual but it did not seem to account for an audio receiver in the mix of components. I don't want to see SD reception on the 100" projector screen as this would be a major drawback. One buying feature for my Denon was that it can upconvert SD connections to 1080P via HDMI. Sorry if I missed this somewhere or am making this more complicated than necessary.

wdwms

03-18-10, 05:50 PM

Infocus X9 720p projector with hdmi and component input
DVR with hdmi, component, composite out, and optical audio out
Denon Receiver with 4 hdmi in and 1 hdmi out and several component hookups
PS3

I am confused how the Denon receiver fits into the hookup. I plan to have everything hooked up in the basement under the stairs and want to maintain the HD connection to the projector and keep the surround sound when using the projector and also be able to get the HD tv stations to the projector when watching the big game.

Would a component or hdmi splitter be necessary in this setup? I have browsed through the BOCS setup manual but it did not seem to account for an audio receiver in the mix of components. I don't want to see SD reception on the 100" projector screen as this would be a major drawback. One buying feature for my Denon was that it can upconvert SD connections to 1080P via HDMI. Sorry if I missed this somewhere or am making this more complicated than necessary.

BOCS doesn't support any HDMI or HD at this point. You'd hook up BOCS to the devices you want to distribute via their composite hookup, not component or HDMI. Anything BOCS distributes would be SD only.

So your receiver, projector etc, would all stay as it is. Your DVR would be hooked up to BOCS via composite and L/R audio. As long as your devices can do two types of output at once you'll be ok. Tivo can, some older comcast boxes can't, I know for a fact PS3 will not output HDMI and component at the same time.

Think of your local setup staying 100% the same; and adding BOCS to additional outputs from you devices, that is what BOCS extends.

-t

David Feller

03-18-10, 06:19 PM

I can't seem to get a response on the website chat guru or this forum regarding the availability of this HD option. Anyone out there????????

I am extremely sorry for the delay. No excuse - just flat missed this. Turns out I'm also the guy on the "chat window" on the website. I hired a firm out of Minnesota for a while that employed a bunch of college students to man the chat window 24/7 but as they could only answer about 10% of the questions and they were trying to handle chat windows from 10 companies simultaneously so response time was slow... My brilliant idea was to "just do it myself" - little did I realize that most of the requests would come between 10pm and 4am - sleepless web pirates....

Regarding HD - I'm a bit hesitant to go deeply into details in a public forum (last time I did I actually got PMs from three other marketing folks scolding me for giving away "secrets") but let me skim over where we are and the issues.

- We decided that going QAM was a waste of time - Zeevee and a couple others (much higher priced) already have it, it does not integrate well with over the air (many tvs dont switch well between), and many TVs don't even have a QAM tuner. ATSC is much more universal.
- MPEG encoding isn't very hard - expensive but not hard, and the best in the world at that does not really talk to small compnies (read <$1B in revenue) so we have a Japanese partner - 720p works great, 1080i is "about to be delivered" (meaning out of our hands waiting for the chip update), and 1080p is "next year" - reasonable for a launch I think
- ATSC modulation also is not hard but to do it cheaply requires dedicated silicon for direct up conversion. It can be done disretely (and has been - works well but expensive - not for consumer use) so a single chip solution is the answer - Our "partner" has had their design in the lab for over a year but recently sold that entire division to another silicon company. Prototypes work ok but production silicon is to-be-delivered.

What does all that mean for production of the upgrade module? in one word, delays. It is still the primary focus but there is no clear delivery time at this point.

I realize this is more detail than the "what day does it go on sale" that everyone would like - sorry but I'm a fan of being open.

Please note, I will likely edit this to get rid of the details in a few days - please do not quote any of the above in a response or question so it will go away when I edit later. Appreciate it.

DF

dbachman

03-19-10, 12:02 AM

David Feller

03-19-10, 11:05 AM

If I understand the connection process correctly, I could connect the DVR composite out to the red xtender in connection and then connect the red extender out to the composite in on my Denon receiver. Then the receiver would be connected to the projector via hdmi. The receiver upconverts SD composite video to 1080p and can send the upconverted signal to the projector. I don't know how good the upconverted SD signal will look on the 100" screen vs. the direct hdmi connection. Has anybody else done this before? Correct me if I an wrong so far with this connection setup.

Well, you could do that, but the signal from the DVR will still basically be 480 resolution on a 100" screen. Watchable but definitely not optimal. If I could suggest a different setup - go hdmi OR component from the DVR into the Denon AND hook a composite cable from the DVR to BOCS - if for some reason HDMI and composite will not work at the same time (rare), component definitely will. That way you preserve full HD to your projector and still get good SD (by the way exceptional 480i) to the rest of the home through BOCS.

And since the DVR is running through the xtender, the other TVs in the house should be able to control the DVR.
Exactly. The remotes are wireless so anyone from any room can both watch and fully control the DVR. Turns out you can also use a BOCS remote in your theater room. The new firmware supports macros so you can program sequences - and with the X10 adapter you can hit a single button that dims your lights, closes your blinds, turns on the projector and fires up a movie - all for a lot less than one of those fancy programmable remotes. The macro capability also lets you reprogram the Red/Green/Blue buttons - i.e. when you press red in your theater room you dont really want to change anything to channel 14, you want to go directly to an input - that lets you do just that. see www.bocsco.com/macros.php and www.bocsco.com/x10.php for more info on these features.

My receiver has 3 composite in connections and therefore I believe I should be able to connect the other components in the same manner to the blue and green.

Yes you can although only the red channel has a built in composite pass-through/splitter - but again I suggest the alternate setup method as above for every source to maximize your experience throug the projector.

Note for audio, you might consider using optical from the DVR into the receiver AND analog audio in parallel right to BOCS- that way everything goes through your receiver as well.

Does an hdmi to composite adaptor exist? I was also thinking about splitting the hdmi signal from the DVR via an hdmi splitter and then have one side go directly to the projector and the other split side go to an hdmi to composite adaptor if that even exists. The composite side of the split signal would then go into the BOCS xtender. This is all just theory if the hdmi to composite split isn't possible. However this would allow me to keep the HD resolution to the projector I believe.

Actually, if you went this route, you would want a component to composite adapter - I've tested a lot of them and so far the best I've seen is on the amperordirect.com site. Seems like they are about $100 but you do not need to go this route if you go with the above hookup plan.

Update: I read that the Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD DVR allows all outputs to be active at once. So I should not have to do any splitting and can just run the HDMI to the projector or the reciever and the composite to the xtender. However, it does not appear that the PS3 allows all outputs to be active at the same time.

Correct on the PS3 - HDMI disables composite - but I have a vague recollection that component and composite will work at the same time - it is worth trying - then you can do the component to composite adapter to hook it up - we have to do the same thing for Apple-TV which has no composite at all.

Good Luck -
DF