Joel, I can get 59-1 without any problem. I also get 69-1 most of the time. Admittedly, I am closer to the 59-1 tower than most on this thread, but I am farther from 69-1 than most too. I can lock 55-1 pretty well (as in watchable with minimal issues), but things are still very much as they were at the beginning. I have my antenna on a rotor and I have to precisely aim it to maximize the 55-1 signal. Even a little shift of 2 degrees (on a 360 degree scale) will cause the signal to shift into the "big swings" in signal strength and drop outs that people describe in this thread (I'm using a Zenith 1080). Even with the very precise antenna angling, I get a stable signal per the signal meter, but I still get very quick flashes of audio dropouts (but pretty stable video).

Perhaps the most killer refute of the "high frequency" theory is that I can pull in 58-1 from Orlando and hold it pretty stable most of the time. From what I understand, 58-1 should be just about the very fringe of what's possible with my antenna.

Like many "closet engineers" on this thread, I am pretty convinced that the problem is in the stream and not consumer boxes, etc. They just don't have something quite right. The points that everyone is making about "older" boxes picking up all of the other stations is right on.

That said, I'm also confident they will work it out. Perhaps we will all have to switch to Miami NBC- and let 55-1 know about it- to light that fire, or perhaps they are working on it around other pressing matters. If every person on this thread sent them a notice of complaint, I'm not sure the count would add up to more than a handful. Meanwhile, they do have other tasks to deal with too, and this is probably just one of many priorities for them. Our power as a group suffers from the Rodney Dangerfield syndrome. And yes, we represent the early adopters of a much bigger future, but we're still very much not the "now". Sometimes, when I really think about this, I'm amazed we have what we have now.

I hope NBC Miami gets it right sooner than later. Have any of us put them in touch with this thread so that they realize the mistakes their "sister" network station is making? Have we helped them see that they have 2 audiences they could capture if they get it right before 55-1 does? Perhaps we should make that contact before they go live.

Who's sent them an invitation to this thread? Who's called/written them explaining what's happening at 55-1? Has anyone communicated with them telling them that there are actually people out here who will be able to see their DTV/HDTV signals? They're spending money and booking build time, and it helps them make their cases to their accountants when they can show some actual public enthusiasm. In the end- after its a matter of complying with an FCC deadline- it's all about advertising sales. If they believe they can capture a WPB audience as a bonus to the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale target, the numbers who can actually see those ads nearly doubles (apparently from about 150 to about 250 people- woo hoo!);)

How To Contact WTVJ (NBC6)
15000 SW 27th Street Miramar, FL 33027

Or techops@nbc6.net

I think this guy is still director of operations:

Steven Kaplan
Steven.Kaplan@NBC.com
954-622-6502

It is not a receiver problem, but a location problem.

So far only I think one person can receive 55-1.
And if in a low mult-path area, or has a forgiving error detector, it may come through.

Using a Dish 6000 receiver, I have had no trouble at all receiving 5-1 in Margate just south of Sample Rd ever since they went on the air. I use a RS Yagi type antenna in my attic. I wish they would start transmitting HD soon. I admit I don't watch the station that much, but I have watched it several times for 15 or 20 minutes at a time with no significant pixelization.
I hope all of the parties concerned (receivers and transmitting equipment)
stop the finger pointing and get the problem fixed ASAP.

Tony

I'm also using a Dish 6000 with an amplified indoor RS Dbl Bowtie and have been getting 55-1, with frequent drop outs, and 59-1 both since day one.

The 6000 did have a recent download that I've read was for multi-path issues, not sure if that is why us 6000 users are able to receive WPTV-DT with this first Gen. DTV tuner though.

I have noticed a drop in signal strength of the other local DTV stations recently since WPTV-DT has gone live, but this could also be contributed to the recent download from Dish.

So, apparently you need to have a latest-generation receiver...or live at least 50 miles from the transmitter (where multipath echoes are weaker) to get 55-1.

Dunno. Im in Port Saint Lucie with a DST3000 and have again lost their signal..

Originally posted by David McRoy
So, apparently you need to have a latest-generation receiver...or live at least 50 miles from the transmitter (where multipath echoes are weaker) to get 55-1.
That's it exactly. As I have said all along on this thread, I don't think the folks at WPTV really care about the few of us out here in the "digital domain". Especially since the FCC would not let them use the spectrum for "commercial ventures" and required them to transmit HD by a certain date. The "bottom line" mentality is there and it will not change. DT is a money pit for them and there are not that many people yet that can watch a DT picture. I guarantee though that if NBC had NASCAR and NFL football their phone would never stop ringing until it's fixed.

This is just my opinion though and take it for what it's worth.;)

My 2 cents...

I have a Samsung SIR TS160 which is a current model receiver and I live about 2.5 miles from the transmitter (Lantana & Military) I receive all PB stations near 100% almost all of the time, all Miami stations with the exception of 10-1 & 7-1 (I have UHF only Antennas, but am so close to WPEC that I pick it up anyway) strong 70-80% and I have yet to get a peep out of 5-1/55-1.

Granted I have not tried re-aiming my antennas, 1 Silver Sensor pointed north and one southwest in a stacked config, but I get everything else from the same area so strong, I would expect that I should see the same from WPTV. I don't particularly want to mess with what is working so I have just been waiting expecting that at some point its going to start working.

I can't manually add the station I have to scan for it and I have never picked it up. I've been sort of kicking back waiting for something to happen, but I wanted to dispel the myth that this is an "older receiver/far away only problem"

Additionally, my receiver gets channel info from the SAT's so it "knows" what stations are out there even without scanning, based on 1 or more zip codes. It is not getting any info on NBC yet.

Just wanted to add another data point to confuse/frustrate everyone a little more:D Is anyone with a Samsung receiver picking up PTV?

Toddmoe,

Your situation does fit the conditions I outlined: even though you have a new receiver you don't live far away from the transmitter so you still can't get a signal.

Anyway, I guess this will eventually get fixed.

I guess I should feel lucky, but I'm still very frustrated; I have the Sony HD-200 receiver with a Silver Sensor, live at Hypoluxo and Hagen Ranch Rds, and have always received 5.1 (55.1 before they remapped their signal) at near 100% with no dropouts. I guess I'm luckier than many. But, as much as everyone is complaining that they can't get any signal at all (which I understand is a bummer ;-), I still see the biggest problem with WPTV-DT is that they are still not broadcasting in 1080i. Equipment delays and faulty equipment are a poor excuse...all these things should have been properly tested and resolved weeks or months before they went live.

I think that ElectricPickle was right in that they had to turn on the switch for the FCC, but they should be ashamed that they couldn't get it right by now! I hope they don't think that they can tiptoe around these issues for months while their local market competitors -- WPEC and WPBF have been broadcasting in hi-def for months (or years if WPTV doesn't get on the ball). I even enjoy watching WFLX-DT (although it's not really hi-def); at least they also broadcast in hi-quality digital in wide screen. Someone said that the WPTV engineers monitor this thread, but if that were true, wouldn't one of them step in to acknowledge that they hear us and possibly alleviate our concerns.

Does anyone have an e-mail address of their Dir. of Operations for Digital Broadcasts or their DTV chief engineer? I think this is ridiculous.

I'm in downtown Fort Lauderdale & I've got Samsung's SIR-T165 OTA tuner. WFLX-DT comes in clear and strong, but I have yet to get a steady, dropout-free, consistent, daily lock on WPTV-DT. After their first few days on the air I lost the signal, and despite trying three different antenna configurations, I'm lucky to be able to tune them in for more than just a few minutes at a time. The last few days have yielded absolutely nothing in the way of a signal.

I've e-mailed their engineering guy many times, and he's always very responsive. Morover, if you back up a few pages, you'll see that he has JOINED our forum and made a posting (his name is Dave McKinley, and he used to work with avsforum member Dave McCoy in the engineering dept. at wpec). Of course, the fact that he's RESPONSIVE and FRIENDLY, which he is, does not quell the frustration that many of us have with wptv's roll out problems. Your point about the FCC is normally one I'd dismiss out of hand (because they ARE working hard, albeit with futility, to get it right), but not here, because when I spoke to wptv just before they went on in April, the person told me, "Don't worry, we know we have to be on the air by May 1". I think they didn't have their stuff in order up front obviously (no cards to get the hd signal to the tower, etc.), and the result is that it's now a race to see whether they'll be broadcasting in HD (to those of us who have been lucky enough, like me, to get their signal at near 100% since day 1) before wtvj. WPTV SHOULD have had a two month competitive jump start.

Maybe they need to change their name to WPTV - "We Pixelate The Video" for those of us who only get small square pixels on our screen !

Ok - just had to get that out - sorry ;)

Any word on the new cards/equipment? Sure wish their techs would post here more often to let us know what is up...

Thanks to wjbjr and rudy1, I decided to take my own advice and send a note to DTV 6. The below just went. I encourage those of you wanting to recieve NBC DTV 6 to let them know you are out here- with the equipment to see the signal. It's much easier to go to the accountants with evidence of a ready market in hand.


Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 1:40 PM
To: 'Steven.Kaplan@NBC.com'
Cc: 'techops@nbc6.net'
Subject: Enthusiasm about DTV Channel 6 (and how not to launch DTV well)

Hi,

I am one of a better-than-you-might-expect-sized group in South Florida that are looking to your launch of NBC Digital 6 with great enthusiasm. I live up in Hobe Sound and am having good success acquiring signals from various Miami DTV stations, and hope that your station will soon be one (more) of them.

As you may or may not know, NBC channel 5 recently went digital on 55-1, but the success of that launch has not been good. Most of the issue seems to revolve around channel 5 consistently suggesting that a problem (which seems like it can only be in their datastream) is probably associated with users throughout the area who have HDTV decoders that are not the “latest & greatest”. In other words, consistent problems with audio & video drop outs in the signal are being blamed on consumer receivers vs. the broadcast signal.

The community is of course refuting by continuously pointing out that their receivers are getting every other DTV signal without these problems, but the PR at NBC is consistently sticking with the argument that is essentially, passing the buck.

This creates a big opportunity for your station. Most of the WPB crowd will probably be able to pull in your channel. So, if you can launch with a good signal, you may get the bonus of a whole other market’s viewers. There is a strong desire to see HDTV on NBC (something channel 5 still has not done) in south Florida, and if you are on the public timeline of a June launch, you may just beat channel 5 to the (successful) broadcasts. I think the WPB crowd will be happy with either station, but you have the advantage of starting with a clean slate. If they can lock your channel without the same effects experienced with the channel 5 signal, they may just stick with you- even if channel 5 finally fixes its problems.

If you are unaware of the demand/frustration about channel 5 and the excitement about your impending launch, I encourage you to spend some time reading the feedback online at the following address…

<inserted link to WPB local thread pg. 59>

Just click through the subsequent pages and read. It could be a blueprint to help you manage a much smoother rollout. You might even consider joining the forum and directly communicating with viewers all over south Florida & WPB (several stations have engineers in the forum, so you would not be alone). This would be a great way to confirm that your signal is being successfully received by all kinds of HDTV decoders, various generations of equipment, etc., at various distances. And the PR activities probably could not be done much worse than channel 5.

I for one am among what appears to be the minority who is having pretty good success getting channel 5 (but even then, it is not as stable as all of the other local DTV signals). So I look forward to your launch too.

Note: the above link goes to a forum set up for WPB. There is also another forum for South Florida. It has fewer comments about channel 5, but it does reflect more Miami-area DTV information. Never-the-less, I send you this note to suggest that you are playing for a bigger audience than just Miami/Ft. Lauderdale. Here’s a link to the South Florida thread on that same site…

<inserted link to South Florida thread>

Just minutes after sending the note to DTV 6, Mr. Kaplan replied with this info...

I am very glad to hear of the enthusiasm about the broadcast of Ch-31. We are working on the installation with an on air date of 6/30/03. The actual antennae was installed over the weekend with great success. We currently run the Telemundo DTV Channel 52 with little consumer problems with set top boxes. The transmitter is the same make, but WTVJ will broadcast at full power unlike our sister station Channel 52.

We will be doing testing starting the first week in June, with luck, and make our scheduled on air date. If you have a problem please let me know what we can do to correct it. Thank you

Good news! Chan 52 comes in good in Delray Beach!

Chan 6 sounds like they want to get their signal out to as many viewers as possible, unlike our local Chan 5.

We will be doing testing starting the first week in June


Hey, that's next week!

Great job HOBESOUNDDARRYL. Maybe some good old competition will light a fire under WPTV.

Maybe someone can forward the e-mail and wtvj's response to dave mckinley at wptv....

Just for Information;
There are only a few HDTV nuts on this thread and AVS.
I asked around and found 17 people have OTA DT and do not consult the AVS thread.

So, people on the AVS forum are only a sampling of the people that can receive Digital TV.

Now we have 3 people that can receive 5-1, wow, the list grows.

I am going to wait for 31-1.

By the way- for those seeking a little more good news- I was in Walmart this past weekend and was surprised to notice a widescreen TV on the floor (in a partially ripped open box) for less than $1250. The tag said HDTV and it looked like it was about 4x inches rear projection. Now, I'm sure we're not talking state-of-the-art (not even county-of-the-art), but I think there is some good news that HD has made a big enough impression that a cheap version of it shows up for sale at Walmart.

That is good news.
Now what we need is for some advertisers to make High Def advertisments

That will put a fire under most stations.
Once the money is there, then the rest is history.

Well I can pull in channel 52 up here with a consistant 18-21 signal. So if WTVJ is going full power atleast I will finally be able to get HD NBC.

Just for the record, I've been receiving a relatively stable signal on 5-1 since WPTV remapped, on a new Samsung SIR-T160 with a Silver Sensor indoor antenna. Since re-mapping, 55-1 is no longer an available channel on my receiver. Add the SIR-T160 to the list of WPTV-capable receivers.

I'm located about 3 miles from the WPTV broadcast tower. Not surprisingly, signal strength is 100%, but there are (rare) dropouts that force me to switch to the sat channel.

hughes e86 here no 5-1 at all for the last couple of days ......

my e86 was able to get WPTV this morning pegged at 100% with drops to 0% every 30 seconds or so.

Nothing at all the last several days from them on a Mitsubishi SR-HD5 (Hughes E86 clone.)

I suspect one of two things is going on or, more likely, a combination of the two:

1. WPTV-DT's signal suffers from severe short-echo multipath reflections.

2. Older receivers (all but the very latest, in fact) do not handle such conditions well at all. (That's the main feature of the new receivers...improved multipath performance.)

Observe that viewers who live far away from the transmitter fair better than those of us who live close-in, where multipath reflections are stronger.

It's also yet to be determined whether their datastream is 100% correct. Older receivers can be less tollerant of corrupt code than newer units.

I agree.
I believe there are 2 issues that are open:
1. Is the datastream 100% correct?
2. Position of antenna and location which is causing multipath.

I believe there are 2 problems which cause a compounded effect.

I wonder what the new receivers do with multipath?
Do they pass the signal with a lower grade video?

No, they're designed to be more tollerant of strong, short echo reflections...the ones that can really kill a DTV signal. If lock can be achieved you get the entire 19.4 Mbps datastream. It's still all or nothing.

I'm taking the liberty of posting Dave McKinley's update as posted over on the South Florida thread:


WPTV DT DOE
New Member

Registered: May 2003
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 2
WPTV DT 55 UPDATE:
First, I want to thank all of you for your emails and posts and phone calls. We hear you loud and clear. We have been devoting our time to the details of working on the signal, as opposed to answering emails or posting updates. I will work harder to let you dedicated bunch know what frustrations we are going thru in order to get the best signal out. Its not a blame game, its what is happening. We contracted with a company back in August 2002 to install and test our HD path equipment. We are still waiting on parts to come in that should of been part of the original order and included options on the equipment.
The encoder, a Tandberg 5821, supplies the SMPTE signal to our NuComm STL equipment, the 310 comes out and feeds our Axcera transmitter. The transmitter was proofed in January, and retested in February...all parameters meet spec. The NuComm equipment was installed in November, it "appears" to be working as it is getting a 310 signal to the transmitter, and the transmitter is happy with it. During startup, we attempted to look at the stream coming out to the transmitter, it was at this point we realized the company did not provide the unit with a 310 input, only ASI, there fore we could not look at the stream there. We could look at it at the studio going into the NuComm equipment, as it takes ASI. It meets spec. We have been waiting for about 6 weeks now to have the Streamtracker returned with the 310 upgrade cards...the cards arrived on my desk this morning...they were to be delivered to Atlanta for install/testing. Once we get this unit back, now promised as "sometime next week" we can look at the stream inbound from the STL before it hits the transmitter to look for errors. We may be chasing something in the STL in the way it converts the ASI to 310, although NuComm tested the equipment and says it is meeting spec. If this is clean, we will once again have the transmitter looked into. We are also investigating why 1st gen Rx's may be having this problem with reception, even though it is hard for many of you to comprehend that this may just be an issue. We are also working on the HD frame sync cards to pass thru NBC HD, we were told these were in Atlanta last week, and we would have them. Today we learned, they are still in test in Canada, and hopefully "sometime next week" as we were told, they will arrive in West Palm. If anyone has noticed, we have also begun dismantle of our 1962 Dresser Ideco tower in Lantana and hope to have it fully down in the next 2 weeks. We also have 1 more wrap around 2 way platform to install at the 500' level on the new tower. We will chat again soon. Dave


__________________
Dave WPTV DT DOE
dmmckinley@scripps.com

Dave, we wish you folks good luck! Thanks for the update.

seems to me this should all have been done BEFORE...oh well ...still no signal on my e86.......

In my opinion, this AVS forum is like a Neilsen rating.

That is what I feel the stations who monitor these threads should take it as.

There is a wide range of people on these threads. People from professionals in TV/Video/Audio, to all kinds of "users" of digital and High Def wide screen viewers.

For every person that responds on this thread, there is at least 10 times or more people that would have the same comments.

What is also important, is that the reponses from people come from such a wide area of locations.

Isn't it amazing that there are reponses to Channel 55 from Orlando area down to the Keys?

Originally posted by David McRoy
I'm taking the liberty of posting Dave McKinley's update as posted over on the South Florida thread:


WPTV DT DOE
New Member

Registered: May 2003
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 2
WPTV DT 55 UPDATE:

If this is clean, we will once again have the transmitter looked into. We are also investigating why 1st gen Rx's may be having this problem with reception, even though it is hard for many of you to comprehend that this may just be an issue.

Dave


__________________
Dave WPTV DT DOE
dmmckinley@scripps.com

Dave, we wish you folks good luck! Thanks for the update.


Still blamming the boxes. Ugh! The only station is all of South Florida with this problem and it's the boxes not them.

Tim Huey

I guess both sides are correct if you think about it:

1. Some boxes can not decode signals with multipath problems as others (therefore, one could blame the boxes)

2. WPTV's signal that is being transmitted is generating the multipath issues (therefore, one could blame the signal)

I guess the reality is that many of us who have bought the "problem" boxes recently are not going to go out and buy another box. So THERE - let's say for a moment that:

********* IT IS THE BOX'S FAULT ***********

What now?

Is WPTV going to say "we don't care and we don't want you viewing our station unless you go and buy another box" ?

I should hope not! It seems to me that they have a responsibility to make their signal as compliant with as many boxes as possible. We are not going to change our boxes, but they can correct the issues with the stream (granted it may take time).

Some of us seem to have forgotten an important point regarding WPTV-DT's status with the FCC:

THEY ARE CURRENTLY UNDER "PROGRAM TEST" AUTHORIZATION. THEY ARE FREE TO TEST, EXPERIMENT, TWEAK AND OTHERWISE MESS WITH THE SIGNAL UNTIL THEY ARE SATISFIED THAT IT'S RIGHT. (Capitalization for emphasis, not for flaming purposes.)

So, this may take a while. I, for one will wait until they finish dismantling their old tower and we receive word from Dave McKinley that they are sure everything is right. And if we are still having problems I guess I'll just watch WTVJ-DT for NBC HD programming until I replace my receiver with a new one someday.

By the way, I don't read into Dave's remark that there may be an issue with older receivers as "blaming" the boxes. He just said there might be an "issue" and he's probably right, at least as far as performance with severe short echo multipath reception goes. Time and further testing will reveal wher the problem or problems lie.

I have the Hughes e86 Box, brand new, and live in SE Boca Raton...Can't get anyting above 72-78, and at that level, and am unable to watch any shows....has to be above 90...I was able to get 95-100% signals 2 or 3 weeks ago...but not since then...does anyone have any suggestions? Is the Hughes considered a good box?

Thanks!

Hey, let's give Dave McKinley and WPTV a break.

Dave and his team obviously are working hard to identify and correct both the signal and HD pass-through problems. He's been responsive to our little group of demanding gear-heads. He's giving us solid, reliable technical details despite having no obligation to share anything with us.

Dave, if you're reading this, we're rooting for you. And we're looking forward to a stable NBC HD signal real soon.

WPTV DT UPDATE
Sorry I put the last update on S. Fla thread, still getting used to this site. We did some testing at the transmitter site today, using a $29 Radio Shack broadband antenna. Using a new Samsung box. At first attempt we had a signal problem, jumping to 80% then to 0%, continously...sound familiar?? This proves out a multipath overload to the RX, we then took the "upper" part of the "V" element and bent it away from the Yagi portion to a flat position. Signal locked at 100%. It "appears" that the sensitivity in some boxes may be causing an overload to the AGC circuit, and this, COULD be part of everyones problem. It also is given merit, as to the fact viewers in Miami and Ft Pierce have been getting us clean from day 1...they are looking at a more "omni" pickup than a deadlocked directional. We did some testing on the stream to the transmitter, and so far everything looks to be in spec. We will know for certain next week, if and when our StreamTracker unit comes back and we test the RX 310 signal coming off the microwave at the site. I propose to help you all by going to 50% power this weekend to see if that improves any of the reception issues, this way you do not have to do anything to your antennas, but it may help the multipath at a lower power level. If we meet with some success, a $29 antenna is a lot cheaper than a $200+ new box. Hopefully we are doing this for more than a handful of faithful DTV folks out there, so spread the word and lets review the results early next week to see if this helps. It's a crazy digital world we have entered, my staff and WPTV ARE interested in having you get our signal...2006 is right around the corner, and isn't that when we will be turning off the analog?!?! Seriously, post your results, thanks for the words...good and bad, you are a driving force, and you are being heard. Our HD Framesync cards are to ship tommorrow, so hopefully we will have NBC HD up by end of next week. We solved our automation issues this week as well, so we are ready in Master Control. For some other testing, we are the only station in town with HD Studio cameras. We could put 1 of them up for a news block if anyone would care to see what that looks like, and to see that we REALLY can do HD...let me know. Dave

Originally posted by omnpotnt
I have the Hughes e86 Box, brand new, and live in SE Boca Raton...Can't get anyting above 72-78, and at that level, and am unable to watch any shows....has to be above 90...I was able to get 95-100% signals 2 or 3 weeks ago...but not since then...does anyone have any suggestions? Is the Hughes considered a good box?

Thanks!

The prime suspect would be the same heat problem that affects so many of the Hughes manufactured STBs.

Get a small quiet desk fan from Office Depot or a similar source and place it to blow across the top of the STB. Others are using a computer fan. There is a long thread on this subject in the Hardware Forum.

I went through four Mitsubishi/Hughes STB swaps before eliminating problems similar to yours via a fan. In each case, the receiver worked well at first before going downhill over time.

Originally posted by WPTV DT DOE
WPTV DT UPDATE
For some other testing, we are the only station in town with HD Studio cameras. We could put 1 of them up for a news block if anyone would care to see what that looks like, and to see that we REALLY can do HD...let me know. Dave

I would love to see the local news in HD. I watch Roxanne Stein, Laurel Sauer, Dean Tendrich and crew everyday. Just let us know when the HD news broadcast will be.

IRT HDTV news. The video quality of your news on DTV is already far and above the competition. Superb color depth and definition. It is of a higher quality than many HDTV telecasts.

As far as the low power test goes. I hope you do not ruin it for those outside metropolitan WPB.

Thank you for you for keeping us informed of your efforts.

Originally posted by WPTV DT DOE
I propose to help you all by going to 50% power this weekend to see if that improves any of the reception issues, this way you do not have to do anything to your antennas, but it may help the multipath at a lower power level. If we meet with some success, a $29 antenna is a lot cheaper than a $200+ new box.

Dave, if it's just overload we can all just try inserting an RF variable attenuator from Radio Shack between oour antenna feed and the input of our receivers while you stay at full power. I have one on hand and I'll give this a shot.

Folks, here's what you need, along with a short piece of coax:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F002%5F002%5F008%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D678

Adjust the gain for optimum reception on 55-1 and all the other DTV stations.

WPEC Dave,

I have the variable attenuator already hooked up and am at -10db down for local attenuation from the Miami locals. As a test reference WPEC 13-1 is 93 at 0db, 65 at -10db and 20 at -20db so my attenuator does work correctly.

WPTV 55-1 is 0 at 0db and stays at 0 all the way down to -20db. I my case at 50 miles away, the signal overload is not an issue since the receiver never sees a signal. Lets see what happens at half power?

Mark

I am certainly concerned about the half power idea, at least as someone who, with apologies I guess, has been getting you clean from day one. I'll be away this weekend with the family, so won't be able to report back as to the effect of cutting the power on those of us, as a previous poster said, not "in the metropolitan wpb area". It seems to me that cutting to half power would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. :(

Does severe short echo multipath reception happen at longer distances?

I for one, do not get 5-1, and hope maybe the results will change this weekend when the power is reduced.

Does this mean that this problem can only be fixed with them going to 1/2 power? Or is this a temp fix until other equipment gets here?

I am willing to test this weekend to see if the 1/2 power idea works.

Also - would love to see the news in HD!!!

Thanks for your work Dave!

I don't think this a a temp fix or even a fix.
It is an attempt to see if it could be a fix.

They believe that there is a possibliity that it is a multipath problem, in the WPB area anyway.

I still do not understand why I can receive 29-1 without a problem, yet can't receive 5-1?

how does one fix a multipath problem at the trasmitter level other than lowering power?

Using an attenuator would not have the same effect as lowering the power. All an attenuator will do in the case of distortion is add a great deal more bit errors in the received stream. It will not help error correction or clean up inconsistencies in a carrier wave causing distortion. I have looked at the signal from here on nights when it has been possible and am almost certain ( at least from my vantage point 120 miles north) that it is not a multi-path issue but a 8VSB modulation issue. The form of the carrier wave does not look like others and therefore is not being recognized by the less forgiving first gen ATSC rcvrs. This of course is not the fault of the receiver but the transmitter equipment that needs further tuning before sending a signal up the tower.

Many stations do testing with a DTV mask to check there DTV signal . I wonder if WPTV-DT has access to this type of tool to analyze their DTV signal? Many station groups have purchased equipment to do this that they share among all their stations. When one stations needs to borrow it they Fed Ex the equipment to the station in need. Maybe WPTV could find out if other Scripps owned stations will loan them this tool.

I hope the conditions are good this weekend so I too can look at the signal again, although my chances of reception will be reduced when they lower the power. Lowering the power could solve a multi path issue if it indeed really exists. However, it will not fix other inconsistencies in the carrier that may be the cause for an 8VSB signal to be rejected by the demodulator in first gen ATSC receivers. They really should talk to other stations or experts in their group if they are stumped as to how to solve this problem.


Finally, testing reception right underneath a transmitter is not a very reliable method to analyze a signal. If you have looked at signals before at such a site you will notice that the signal being returned to the ground underneath the tower is far from perfect. This is because signals are propagating up, out, and away from the top of the tower not straight down. It is better to look at your signal from at least 5 miles away since the transmitter will have better output to this area and should be propagating the transmitted wave toward this perimeter area. The tower site itself is in sort of a distorted dead zone for reception and analysis of the signal coming off the tower up above will give you a false sense of a signal even when you have a perfect signal.

Originally posted by satpro
I have looked at the signal from here on nights when it has been possible and am almost certain ( at least from my vantage point 120 miles north) that it is not a multi-path issue but a 8VSB modulation issue. The form of the carrier wave does not look like others and therefore is not being recognized by the less forgiving first gen ATSC rcvrs. This of course is not the fault of the receiver but the transmitter equipment that needs further tuning before sending a signal up the tower.



Yes, I've seen ideal vs. non-ideal envelope waveform images in gearhead publications. Can you post some images of a few local DTV stations' spectra that you've observed?

WPTV DT 5-1 UPDATE.
We are now at 1/2 power as of 11a Friday morning. This is only a test, it is not meant as a permanent fix. Until we can get our test gear back, its us doing something other than sitting on our hands. A DTV mask was used when the transmitter was set up, but was used with a signal being generated by the transmitter, not the 8VSB inbound signal. This may very well be the culprit, once we can see it, we will fix it. Some of the reasons we did not have a chance to fully test the signal before going to air, was the tower construction and timelines that had to be met there as well. We trusted the manufacturers/ and installers to provide the testing and gear they spec'd...they fell short, now we continue to be at their mercy while we try to solve the issue. It is very frustrating. satpro is right on with explaining the attenuator cause and effect, that is why we opted for a short test at 1/2 power. The antenna test at the transmitter site was done because testing at the studio did not yeild any negative results, we were attempting to see the problem everyone is talking about, short of having our test gear back. For Weston guy, I would be interested to see if you can still see us at 1/2 power. For Joel thanks for the compliments on the upconverted SD. Our station is also the only one in town to be a true fully digital plan, using SDI for video thru the studio keeps it cleaner, we are also DOWNconverting our HD Studio camera signals to SDI, so as expected they produce a superior SDI signal. For Mark_T are you looking for 5-1 or 55-1? Hopefully this info helps, we continue to work on it. Dave

I tried to receive 5-1 last night and again this morning - still zero signal strength. So the 1/2 power experiment doesn't work for Hughes E86 type equipment in Palm City as far as I can see. I was able to receive the WPTV-DT digital signal briefly when broadcasts first began. I again was able to pickup their signal briefly a few weeks ago. Doesn't that indicate the Hughes E86 type equipment is capable of picking up the WPTV-DT signal? Something must be changing with the 5-1 transmission.

I still can't get any random signal locks at 5-1 or 55-1.
Antenna is on a rotator, and can't pick up anything.
I know I am far out, but using the Mits HD5 a e86 type, I did at one time view 55-1 for a few hours on a few evenings.

I have 0 signal on 55 and no picture on 5-1. I'm at Military & Gateway with a E86, Channel Master 3018 on a roter. 9:45 am.

Not sure if you were half power on Friday night, but the signal appeared to be 10-20% less than normal. I watched the news for about a half hour and had one brief drop-out (HD200/attic UHF yagi)

WPTV Dave,

Half power yielded no results for me either in Miami. The E86 still shows 0 signal on 55 and was mapped to 5-1 a few weeks ago when some our E86's got good signal. Len in Palm City, has a good point in that the E86's did get a valid signal before, so our equipment does work correctly as many of us previously thought. Dave, it looks like Satpro is on the money by stating the 8VSB modulation is the key to solving the problem. Keep us informed, we know you are busy and we appreciate you taking the time to post for us!

Mark_T

Here in downtown Ft. Lauderdale, my Samsung SIR-T165 locks on to the signal (nine of the signal strength bars are lit up), but reception is intermittent (the signal drops off to zero every few seconds) with frequent freezes and major pixellation. I'm using an amplified indoor antenna.

WPTV Dave,

I am still receiving a very good signal. I am experiencing less frequent audio dropouts and pixelation. I am at Jog and Woolbright, Sony HD200 and a 40" UHF antenna in the attic.

I'm at Las Olas and the Beach and not getting anything with a first generation receiver. Silver Sensor antenna amplified +15db.

Tim Huey

Need some assistance:
I am located in west boca area and have mounted 2 bow-tie uhf antennae on 1 pole. 1 facing noth to pick up the palm beach area stations and the other facing south to pick up the miami area stations. this seems to work well except i am not able to pull in channel 12-1 cbs in palm beach altho i am getting a signal meter reading of 88. Any suggestions would certainly be appreciated.

Ch 55 (NBC) is still zero, nil, nothing, nada.
What will the High Def signal do to the 8VSB modulator ???????

I'm still receiving a signal strength of 70%( w/Dish 6000, amp'ed RS Dbl Bowtie) from 5-1 at half power, but with less pixelation and audio drop outs also.

WPTV Dave,

Sony HD-100 still shows a varying signal on 5.1 in Delray Beach, with your reduced power. Dave, it looks like Satpro is correct by stating the 8VSB modulation is the key to solving the problem.

Originally posted by WPTV DT DOE
WPTV DT 5-1 UPDATE.
For Weston guy, I would be interested to see if you can still see us at 1/2 power.


Hi Dave, just got back home from sarasota, so this is the first time I've had to check since you went to half power. As of 5:58 p.m., interestingly enough, I am getting you as strong as I ever have - about 90%+ on the zenith hd520 signal bar. Hope that helps. Good luck with starting up the hd pass through this week!

I decided to connect a Dish Network 6000 IRD to see what would happen with the 55 signal that I can not get on my DTC 100. Guess what using same antenna voila I was able to get 55 at 85% signal strength in Weston.

Dr Guava

I still get nothing.

There seems to be multiple problems with 55, but
#1 is the 8VSB modulation
#2 is some multipath problems
#3 is not power, power is for distance with a good signal.

The "low power" experiment seemed to make little difference Friday & Saturday. But Sunday, I checked again and can say that I saw nearly the best incarnation of 5-1 since launch. I'm in Hobe Sound using a Zenith 1080 with a Blake UHF aerial on a rotor. I get all of the other "locals" and many Miami stations with no problems.

I started experimenting with the rotor and found that the requirements of precise antenna pointing were much more lax (a much wider range of rotation could be used). The usual "hot zone" for me didn't seem so hot, but another hot zone nearly 70 (of 360) degrees away seemed optimal. The picture and audio would lock for a period of time.

I noticed very visible pixelations when the scene changed. And, even if the scene didn't change, the "regular" cycle of video and audio dropouts seemed to occur every 40 seconds or so. It's almost like there was a regular pulse that would disrupt the signal.

Another peculiar thing was related to the audio. My ears could detect extremely momentary audio failures (measured in just fractions of a second)- even when the video signal seemed most stable. I would click on the signal gauge to notice that it did not show these dropoffs or dramatic shifts in the signal during these mini-audio "hiccups". So either these occurred too fast for the graphic bar to register or they are something else. I've had these the whole time I've been getting 5-1, but I wanted to mention them again here to be complete.

When the picture was not not breaking up, it looked quite sharp (great SD upconverts of the tennis matches). But, it's just not watchable with the regular breakups. It seems so close to being there, and yet...

Hopefully, there will be more progress this week. And per feedback from DTV Channel 6 (NBC Miami), they begin testing this week (so one way or another we may finally start viewing some "must see TV" in HD). Their hardware solution is based on the same one they are using for their spanish-language (Telemundo) sister station on 52 (but 6 will be at full power). Even up in Hobe Sound, I pull in Telemundo pretty well, so I have high hopes for NBC 6. It would be great to get (the more local) 5-1 though.

I give up on WPTV, since WTVJ starts testing this week. I have a DTC-100, which may be 1st generation, but it's stable and probably has the best market penetration (keep in mind that a whole bunch of RCA televisions have them built in, and those people can't just go out and "buy a newer STB"). If they had started passing HDTV during the season I might have been upset, but oh well.

aviators99, I can appreciate the sentiment. While I have had some success with 5-1, it is frustrating. For those that can't get even a teaser of some signal, it must be maximum frustrating. I do hold out hope that a positive resolution will arrive- it's just a matter of time.

Remember, in the end, it is all about advertising dollars; the more eyes watching, the bigger the advertising fees that can be charged. If everyone in WPB switches their viewing to DTV 6 (once available), those wanting to pay for local advertising on DTV NBC would choose only DTV 6.

Unfortunately, the DTV crowd is just so tiny (relative) that the "concern" about viewership loss is not an overwhelming driver. Had the viewer masses been there, all the stations would have been killing themselves in a race to be on the air (successfully) way before the FCC deadline. The stations are struggling with timing (spending the big bucks) on a business model that they already have, targeting an audience that is micro-sized by comparison. A natural motivation to make the transition doesn't seem to exist.

So, there is little to no new ad dollars in DTV, little to no strategic threats from competing stations (though NBC6 is about to come on), a miniscule (but growing) local audience to see the ads, etc. The requirement to fulfill the (unnatural motivation in the form of the) mandate might be (very loosely) called "complete". Again, when one thinks through the situation, it's a wonder that there is much energy/time/dollars being expended on fixing the problems.


UPDATE ON DTV 6
On a related note, I did get an update from DTV 6 since the last post and testing will not start this week. Instead the approximate call is for mid-month now.

I don't feel that the DTV crowd is so tiny. It may appear so on these threads, but, as I said before, I know many (10x) the people that have DTV and rave about CBS.
What may be tiny is the High Def.
I find there are a lot of people buying DTV and like to watch in 4:3 format.
Why?, I don't know.
Maybe there is a bigger market down here than in WPB.

I agree. Three friends on my block have hdtv's and stb's, and they never HEARD of avsforum.

Guys, please don't think that I base the use of the adjective "tiny" on the quantity of people in this thread. Of course, not everyone in WPB or South Florida with an STB is on this website. But, if you dig into the actual stats, you're in for a disappointment as to the true quantity of people able to view HD in South Florida.

The choice of the adjective is driven by the argument "its all about advertising" and should be set against the backdrop of our extreme passions wanting 5-1 to be on par with the other local DTV stations yesterday vs. their own natural drivers to deliver a DTV signal. From their point-of-view, there is a tiny group whining about a signal that simply costs them time and money to generate. It probably generates little to no new ad dollars for them, so it is probably viewed as just a cost burden/hassle in the short-term. Yes, it is the future, and the trend seems to support some motivation to get it right sooner than later. I simply suggest that their passion to deliver is substantially different than our passion to recieve (quality).

As we move through time and a lot more of our neighbors join our little party, the ad dollar potentials will begin to get ever-more interesting (or perhaps the industry will figure out some other lucrative revenue models based on broadcasting in digital). If most of South Florida had HD STB's feeding HD sets now, every local station would be battling it out to be broadcasting quality signals yesterday. Instead, its a bit of "pulling teeth" in which the government is having to force the stations to spend money rather than a natural "opportunist" market force. We could go further here- but it just leads to debate about "chicken and egg" (covered extensively in other threads on and off of AVS).

I support the camp that says "we need broadcasts to create the market", so somebody has to "bite the bullet". In this particular situation though, that "somebody" probably very much feels like it is NBC 5. Thus, we should be happy that there is some effort to make it happen on the scale that it is. I get as frustrated as almost anyone on this thread about the pace, but there is this whole other side that exists. At least they are working on it. And, worst case, many of us can simply switch to DTV 6 if the pace at channel 5 drags out too long.

HobeSoundDarryl, your point is well made. We have been spoiled by David McRoy and WPEC-DT and their proactive involvement with us. We are still considered "early adopters" of DTV - even though my Mitsubishi rear projection TV is in it's 6th generation and it has been 15 years since I first saw HD TV at the Smithsonian Institute (Japanese Sumo-Wrestling). Some people still claim that HDTV will eventually fail, although I do not believe that. Personally I think that if the economy remains stable, a lot of HDTV equipment will be sold by this time next year. Here’s why:
More football, NASCAR, and other sports will be broadcast in HD than ever before.
More Hit primetime shows like CSI and 24 will be presented in HD and they convert to DVD well.
New HD TV’s are becoming a better value so people are more likely to replace that old analog TV.
Cable is starting to get on board.

The biggest obstacle, as I see it, is still trying to come up with “standards” that will appease the copyright holders AND the end users. Isn’t that what we are talking about here with channel 55? The age old 8VSB vs. COFDM standards debate rages on.
http://www.spgv.com/columns/8vsbvscofdm.html

Yeah, and directv is now on board too - hooray! Directv announce this afternoon a package of espn-hd, discovery-hd, hd-net movies, and hd-net for 10.99, beginning July 1. :)

i know this is off topic - but does that mean we will lose hd-net if we don't pay? Also - do you have a link to this info?

EL SEGUNDO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 3, 2003--DIRECTV, Inc., the
nation's leading digital multichannel television service provider, announced
today that it will launch a new high-definition (HD) programming package on
July 1. The HD package will include ESPN HD, Discovery HD Theater(TM), HDNet
and HDNet Movies, and is available by subscription for $10.99 per month.
In addition to ESPN HD, Discovery HD Theater, HDNet and HDNet Movies, DIRECTV
will also provide its customers with special events broadcast in HD, similar
to events broadcast in the past, such as USA's coverage of the Masters
Tournament, NBA games and NBA TV programming blocks.
"DIRECTV has been a passionate proponent of HDTV since it launched the first
coast-to-coast HD-feed more than four years ago," said Stephanie Campbell,
senior vice president, Programming, DIRECTV, Inc. "Over the last year, as the
HD category has gained tremendous momentum, our customers have told us they
want more HD programming. The launch of this HD package reinforces DIRECTV's
commitment to the category, and to offering our customers the best quality
high-definition programming."

The DIRECTV HD package includes:


ESPN HD -- A 24-hour high-definition simulcast service of ESPN that
delivers the best lineup of quality sports events, news and
information and entertainment telecasts currently available, including
games from Major League Baseball, the National Basketball Association,
the National Football League and the National Hockey League.

Discovery HD Theater -- Discovery HD Theater is the new 24/7 channel
filmed entirely in high-definition. The channel delivers programs
about nature, science and technology, geography, travel and world
culture -- all designed to provide the highest-quality viewing
experience available. It offers the world's most spectacular images
delivered in the world's most stunning quality. Discovery HD Theater
is like having a movie theater right in your own home.
HDNet -- A 24-hour network featuring live sports like NHL(R) and
MLS(R) games, boxing, drama series, concerts and original news and
documentary programming including HDNet World Report and Across
America.

HDNet Movies -- Delivers a 24-hour schedule of blockbuster movie
titles from Warner Bros., Sony, and other major studios, as well as
made-for-TV movies, independent films and shorts.

With the addition of the HD package, DIRECTV will offer seven HD channels to
its more than 11.4 million customers nationwide. DIRECTV customers are
currently receiving HBO(R) HDTV and SHOWTIME HDTV(R) as part of their premium
packages, as well as HD PPV movies for $4.99 each. In addition, under terms of
its new five-year agreement with the National Football League for exclusive
rights to NFL SUNDAY TICKET(TM), DIRECTV also plans to begin offering
high-definition telecasts of professional football games during the 2003
regular NFL season.
To access HDTV channels, consumers may purchase any HDTV set with a built-in
DIRECTV(R) Receiver or a DIRECTV-enabled high-definition set-top receiver, and
a single 18 x 20- or 18 x 24-inch multi-satellite dish with three LNBs. HDTV
sets integrated with the DIRECTV Receiver, DIRECTV-enabled HD receivers and
triple-LNB satellite dishes are available from authorized DIRECTV retailers
nationwide.
DIRECTV is the nation's leading digital satellite television service provider
with more than 11.4 million customers. DIRECTV and the Cyclone Design logo are
registered trademarks of DIRECTV, Inc., a unit of Hughes Electronics
Corporation. HUGHES is the world's leading provider of digital television
entertainment, broadband services, satellite-based private business networks,
and global video and data broadcasting. The earnings of HUGHES, a unit of
General Motors Corporation, are used to calculate the earnings attributable to
the General Motors Class H common stock (NYSE: GMH). Visit DIRECTV on the
World Wide Web at DIRECTV.com.

CONTACT: DIRECTV, Inc.
Robert Mercer, 310/964-4683

KEYWORD: CALIFORNIA
INDUSTRY KEYWORD: CABLE TELEVISION/RADIO CONSUMER/HOUSEHOLD
PRODUCT
SOURCE: DIRECTV, Inc.

ElectricPickle, I'm with you on the beliefs of "this time next year". I do have great hopes for the next year. I can't compete with your "6th generation" claim, but I do see the 3rd generation of my own DTV now available. The terrific Directv announcement carries some national impact potential for the transition. I wish there was much more of this kind of thing. And with DTV 5 (and/or DTV 6), we will finally have all of the major networks in South Florida. These accomplishments do have big potential for the next year, and even more so for the next few years.

Relative to "some say HDTV will fail", I'm with you. In my opinion, it is a perfectly opposite spin on the "its all about advertising revenue" driver. As I'm sure you know, there are billions of dollars to be captured by Uncle Sam when the DTV transition is complete and the analog sprectrum is sold off. Those billions will motivate the government to try to keep the transition moving. Free money always does- especially free money via "no new taxes".

Momentum is definately on our side. A rather powerful force- the U.S. Government- is ultimately on our side too. Now if we could somehow temper our passion for quality DTV signals with patience. That's the one with which many of us early adopters struggle.

And by the way electricpickle, that "15 year" claim was killer. Wow! Maybe that kind of info is the key to the pain in trying to be patient- time does fly. Does anyone realize that Directv is about to celebrate its 10 year anniversary?

It may appear that HDTV has very little impact on advertising, but it has sure given CBS a boost.
I think there is more than we have facts for.
I believe HDTV and DTV has definitly "ADDED" to the viewer base, and it is the type of people advertisers want.

Dave Mckinley made the following post on the south florida thread about an hour ago, but forgot to post it here :

WPTV DT Update
We made some changes this morning to the 8VSB microwave link from the studio to the transmitter site. NEED INPUT from forum to know if this HELPS the problem boxes out there. We are still waiting on test gear to come back, does not appear the 1/2 power test did much to help anyone this past weekend. The long overdue frame sync cards came in yesterday, we are in the process of installing and testing HD pass thru. IF you see any successes let me know. Also here is a sneak peek at NBC's plan for HD next fall.
DAY & PROGRAM HD

MONDAY
8 FEAR FACTOR NO
9 LAS VEGAS YES
10 THIRD WATCH YES*

TUESDAY
8 WHOOPI YES
8:30HAPPY FAMILY YES
9 FRASIER YES
9:30GMM NO
10 L/O SVU YES

WEDNESDAY
8 ED YES
9 THE WEST WING YES
10 LAW & ORDER YES

THURSDAY
8 FRIENDS NO
8:30 SCRUBS NO
9 WILL & GRACE NO
9:30COUPLING. YES
10 ER YES

FRIDAY
8 MISS MATCH YES
9 DATELINE NBC NO
10 BOOMTOWN YES

SATURDAY
8 NBC SAT.MOVIE Contractual only

SUNDAY
7 DATELINE NBC NO
8 AMERICAN DREAMS YES
9 LAW & ORDER: CI YES
10 LYONS DEN YES


__________________
Dave WPTV DT DOE
dmmckinley@scripps.com

I just rescanned - no digital signal for WPTV-DT. Still receiving all other WPB digital stations - WPEC-DT (12-1) at 79 - 86 signal strength.

Tonight might be the night! Dave McKinley at WPTV just e-mailed me and says re NBC HD pass through: "We are hoping Leno tonight as a test". Those of us who can receive wptv should watch (like we weren't going to) and report to Dave - maybe on this thread - with how it looks, sounds, etc. Here we go!

No reception here in Delray Beach after link changes. Rx is Sony HD-100

Sounds great for Leno What about Law and Order tonight.

I have Law and Order on NBC tonight listed as HD back-to-back programs at 9:00 PM ET for Episode 1 and 10:00 PM ET for episode 2

Signal is 85-90% here in Coral Spring...Sony HD200

Still nothing on my Mitsubishi HD-5 (E86) after reboot and rescan and reset the zip code and reboot again and rescan locals. Repeat with all three antennas. Nothing. About 2 miles from the transmitter in Royal Palm Beach.

This month's WXEL magazine "Message From the President's Desk" is about digital TV. He states that they will air PBS programs in high definition later this year and plan to broadcast "four simultaneous channels in the daytime hours..."

Sounds ambitious.

Nothing at all on 55-1 or 5-1 today either on the DST3000. Other WPB stations still coming in normal at 70 to 100 signal.

Little disappointed with the early news on the boxes still not working. Our test equipment is still promised this week...course that was the case the last 2 weeks. We will expand HD test for all of NBC prime tonight, 8p-1230a. Forgot about Law and Order, sorry about that.
Dave

On another topic.
Why do all the TV channels advertise the Fall line up?
That is over 4 months away!

What do we all do for the next 4 months?
See re-runs of re-runs?

If you can't get DTV I don't think you can get HDTV

well this just sux... DST3000 still getting nothing here in Saint Lucie

George33027, the fall lineup is public in May because they want to pre-sell advertisers. Advertisers don't want to pay big bucks for blocks of ads if they don't know what shows are surrounding them. By pre-announcing (and pre-promoting), they line up their big ad dollars that makes this whole thing work.

For us, yes, we watch reruns of reruns until then. Or, as I believe NBC advertised it a few years ago, if you didn't watch it during the season, it's <the reruns are> "new to you". Maybe 5-1 gets it right soon (or maybe 6-1) and we start watching a lot of NBC reruns in HD that we did/didn't see during the regular season. Sometimes I find myself watching pictures of flowers and babbling brooks on 2-1 just for the pretty HD picture. Even a NBC rerun might actually be more engaging.

No HD on WPTV so far....but "Fosse" is in HDTV/DD 5.1 on PBS.

Originally posted by WPTV DT DOE
Little disappointed with the early news on the boxes still not working. Our test equipment is still promised this week...course that was the case the last 2 weeks. We will expand HD test for all of NBC prime tonight, 8p-1230a. Forgot about Law and Order, sorry about that.
Dave

WPTV Dave,

No HD Pass through on the 8PM Law & Order. I am still experiencing periodic audio dropouts as well. Receiver is a Sony HD200 with a 40" UHF Antenna in the attic. I will check again at 10PM.

WPTV Dave,

I am watching the 10PM Law and Order and still no HD pass through. I will check the local news then Leno.

Ditto dave, no hd pass through.

Leno is in HD. Looks great, Dave! You might be having stereo issues though - I'm not even sure it's coming through in dolby 2.0. But wow, great picture!

nothing here in wpb on my e86.Im not suprised though..I dont understand the problem. No other station has been this problematic ..

I understand that rerun are NEW if you haven't seen them, and that is okay.
I am looking forward to seeing NBC HD of programs I have not seen.
But, re-run of a re-run, is a waste. I do understand, that if you also miss the re-run, then this is good.

I just am tired of future promises over and over, it is like re-runs.

Then when the new season starts, the ratings can change that in a few weeks. so all of the hype can be for naught.

By the way, I did not notice Crossing Jordan and Hunter in the Fall line up?

I just checked my Mitsubishi HD5 (E86) for channel 55-1. With the big antenna in the attic nothing but I switched over to the rabbit ears behind the TV and I’m getting almost 100 percent. There are occasional dropouts but its working. It may be due to atmospheric conditions as we have had a lot of rain. Anyone else?

Edit - It was a fluke I guess. Getting almost nothing now.

WPTV DT 5-1 Update
Good news. Tracked down last nights issue at 10p, NBC NY did NOT feed us HD due to bad weather, so Leno was our first shot. We are staged to do Leno again tonight, AND ER. We are still working a minor automation issue, so for now it will air with NO commercials locally. We got a call about techs and equipment, they will be onsite next Tuesday, June 10 to work on stream issue and test path equipment/signal. We WILL carry the Belmont on Saturday in HD. We hope to have the automation issues cleared up soon, but for now we will attempt to pass thru NBC HD shows as they are available. Dave

THanks so much dave! And by the way, I did notice that when it was time for local commercials last night, there was nothing - but that was fine with me, because instead we got to hear the tonight show band playing for the audience through the break! It was really cool.

Why does it take so long to get test eq. and techs ?

Originally posted by George33027
Why does it take so long to get test eq. and techs ?

It's like doing your taxes on April 15 and they are the accountants.

No HD on ER thus far...

Originally posted by Westonhdguy
No HD on ER thus far...


It is in HD now. It looks great. I am experience some freezing and audio dropouts.

WPTV Dave,

Glad to see you have the HD feed working. Great job.

WPTV Dave -

Finally!!! ER in 1080i HD looks great. Thanks to you and your crew for all the hard work. I'm getting a few pixelizations now and then (using a Sony HD-200 and Silver Sensor close to your tower, my signal has always been very strong from the time you went live) , but not too bad. Now, if only it were in DD 5.1...it's still coming in DD 2.0. I'm sure you'll get that worked out soon as well.

Also, just another comment maybe you could pass on to the higher ups...I'm sure I can speak for most of us watching HD programming that we wish NBC would add more shows to be broadcast in 1080i HD. It seems that CBS and ABC have much more HD programming thus far, and NBC is behind the curve. Lenno is too late for me and ER and Frasier are great, but what about Friends, Scrubs, The West Wing, and others? NBC needs to get on the ball, especially when the other networks have HD programming in prime time almost every night. Thanks!

I'm watching the downconverted SDTV output of my DISH 6000 - looks great! Getting the occassional breakups and pixellization - not sure what's up with that... Signal is about 90% most of the time with a Radio Shack DBT indoor antenna. I also have a Hughes E-86 - I didn't fire it up since others say they're not getting anything on them.

acesk8er

P.S. I must be the only person on this forum with 2 HDTV STB's and no HD display... ;-)

Originally posted by bsgoren
WPTV Dave -

ER and Frasier are great, but what about Friends, Scrubs, The West Wing, and others? NBC needs to get on the ball

1. bsgoren: Most of those shows WILL be in HD starting in the fall - see Dave's post from yesterday.

2. Dave: ER looked great once HD clicked in. Great job guys! I did, like ANSEK, have some audio drop outs. No freezing, but two of the 5 drop outs I counted were accompanied by a bit of pixelization. Hope that helps with something. Thanks again!

Got zero signal on 55-1 last night (on e86 STB). This morning at 7am, signal was jumping from zero to 19 - no picture.

I too only get a random 6 or 9 with no picture for 5-1 or ch 55.
So I know there is some kind of signal out there

So as I read, it appears that the NBC schedule is to get most stations up and operational by the Fall line up.

Will WPTV be returning to full power soon? I have not seen 5-1 since last weekend's power cut.

WPTV audio is down. Shows up as DD2.0 but silent.

90-95% Sony HD200

Thanks, Westonhdguy...didn't see the posts from the previous page until you alerted me to that. The NBC fall HD lineup looks a lot better, but I wonder why they're not upconverting Friends, Scrubs, and Will & Grace in 1080i HD? Seems a bit odd, since those are some of NBC's most poular shows, and on some of the other nights, it would appear as if the entire primetime lineup is in HD. I guess NBC will eventually figure that out.

Yeah, law and order came in beautiful in HD - WITH NO SOUND! Now they're apparently working on it though - the audio signal level is bouncing around, and it's going in and out of hd.

WPTV-DT was without audio as early as 4:30 pm today....I thought that they'd have it fixed by this evening. I've seen this same thing on WBZL-DT at least twice in the past couple of weeks. Perhaps stations going digital should provide a couple of staff members with consumer HDTV equipment to take home so that they can monitor what their viewers are seeing instead of simply relying on what the engineers see in master control. And it would be nice if they would flash announcements on-screen so that we'd at least know that master control is aware of any problems they're having. It is really irritating to call the stations when something is wrong and the receptionist or the news room crew are completely oblivious to what is going on. And it's totally impossible to reach anybody with sense after normal business hours. What's going to happen when analog broadcasting is no more?

I called them, and they were oblivious. At a little after ten, I talked to a woman and told her the sound had been out for hours: she said the engineers weren't there and "there's nothing we can do about it". AAARGH!

What would happen if VHF ch 5 went down?

{she said the engineers weren't there and "there's nothing we can do about it". }

No, I think IT DID GO DOWN along with 5-1. I think only the cable feed was working soundwise - I get channel 5 analog as well, and got no sound on that either. Believe me, I tried it, because since the HD feed WAS working, I would have certainly jerry-rigged something so that I could hear the channel 5 vhf signal while watching 5-1 video - if they synced up. I couldn't even TRY the experiment, because I couldn't get sound off of channel 5 vhf. I am NOT making this up.

Anyway, the sound is back up now, so hopefully we'll get the Belmont in HD later today, as promised.

Audio is back on 55.1/5.1


Lets hope it holds for the Belmont !

HD color bars up on 5.1 if any one want's to det your black level ?

I just want to receive 5-1 to see the Belmont. But, I can't get ch 55 !!!!

what happened to ABCs HD feed of the hockey game??

WPTV DT Update
We are aware of audio problem on HD. We lost something in the string, so for now we have it patched around, we made a point to make sure it was up for the Belmont today. Most of the crew was working on the radar, we got zapped by lightning...had to pick a priority, sorry. We also had a burglar alarm at transmitter site, and the old tower came down the rest of the way on Friday. Not making excuses, just filling you all in. We do have a few engineers with DTV sets at home, but they were in working on other problems, we just could not get to HD quickly, something we will work on. We will also make sure the desk has info, so we don't appear clueless to those of you who call in. Also to answer an ealier post: Test equipment and techs are hard to get in with over 200 stations still trying to get on the air. We were qouted August, but we put a large amount of pressure on them to be here next Tuesday. Dave

Originally posted by HTnut
what happened to ABCs HD feed of the hockey game??

It was fine here via WPLG-DT. What was your problem?

Keep up the good work Dave. BTW, HD looked real good tonight for the remake of "Carrie".

Perfect video, a few audio drop-outs. Thanks WPTV.

The hockey game went 4x3 for quite a bit of the game. Went back to HD last 6 minutes of the game.

Originally posted by HTnut
The hockey game went 4x3 for quite a bit of the game. Went back to HD last 6 minutes of the game.

Not here last night (Saturday). That did occur earlier in the week. I believe it was during the third period of Thursday's game.

Hello everyone, in two weeks I will be attempting to setup a channel master 4228 on a rooftop in Jupiter Farms. One thing I noticed from http://100kwatts.tmi.net/tv/PBI.html is WPBF-DT ABC is north of me, while everyone else is south. Do you think I will need a rotator to receive WPBF-DT if the 4228 is pointed to the south?

Is there an updated map of transmitters buried in this thread? I saw a paper clip on the thread, but I havn't been able to find the attachment yet.

If there is anyone in Jupiter who could leave some quick feedback on their experiences I would appreciate it.

I also have a channel master 7777 pre amp. What are the chances I could pick up the Miami channels?

Thanks,

Matt

WJBJR, were you watching WPLG or WPBF? This was PBF

WPTV does work weekends.
Great.
The "first gen" systems are probably on the bottom of the pri list.
(Just hope we are on the list)

Originally posted by HTnut
WJBJR, were you watching WPLG or WPBF? This was PBF

WPLG

Matt (bangbang), I live up in Hobe Sound and can pull in the Miami stations most of the time. I am using a Winegard VHF/UHF (strongest one) amp with a Blake UHF aerial. Get your antenna up as high as possible and try to stay clear of any obstacles that might facilitate multipath.

I only have experience with being able to rotate the antenna, so I don't know if you will have to or not. Perhaps others will cover that question.

Also, more than just one station is north of you. Another, for example, is 59-1 (though currently there is not a lot of HD there to miss). I'd encourage the rotator; it's cheap and it will save you from climbing back up there if you don't get what you want.

This was just posted on the Channel 6 website:

HDTV Coming To WTVJ
Viewers Will Have Picture Perfect Reception

POSTED: 1:50 p.m. EST February 19, 2003
UPDATED: 11:12 a.m. EST June 9, 2003

MIRAMAR, Fla. -- By the middle of July 2003, WTVJ will begin broadcasting its HDTV signal on channel 31 from a new location.

In January 2003, the FCC approved WTVJ-HD Channel 31



I guess that the on the air date has been changed from June to July.

Dr Guava

George33027, 1st gen boxes are still on our "list". See prior qoute about techs and test gear coming in tommorrow. The MAIN reason they are coming is to inspect the stream, I also discussed our issue again with Axcera the transmitter supplier this morning about the problem, they are checking as well. Hopefully we find something out tommorrow, and we will fix it quickly. Dave

"This was just posted on the Channel 6 website:

"HDTV Coming To WTVJ
Viewers Will Have Picture Perfect Reception"


One wonders how many innocent viewers who read this will be shocked to learn that they must invest in mucho new equipment in order to "Have Picture Perfect Reception".

WPTV-DT DOE

Still no DTV mask in shop?

Thanks for the updates, Dave. Hope you guys get things sorted soon.

Originally posted by drguava
This was just posted on the Channel 6 website:

HDTV Coming To WTVJ
Viewers Will Have Picture Perfect Reception

POSTED: 1:50 p.m. EST February 19, 2003
UPDATED: 11:12 a.m. EST June 9, 2003

MIRAMAR, Fla. -- By the middle of July 2003, WTVJ will begin broadcasting its HDTV signal on channel 31 from a new location.

In January 2003, the FCC approved WTVJ-HD Channel 31



I guess that the on the air date has been changed from June to July.

Dr Guava

Who was it that said, "Never under budget nor on time"? :rolleyes:

Thanks Dave.
When they fix it, make sure you ask why there is not an indicator or something to show you that there is a problem.

Originally posted by WPTV DT DOE
George33027, 1st gen boxes are still on our "list".

Man this is just crap..I get every other digital station in wpb-miami area but my e86 is at fault and wont pick up nbc....jeez and its not like I really care because I dont watch THAT much network broadcasting..

once again WPBF dropped the puck during the hockey game. First 15 minutes of hockey not broadcast in HD. Left a message with their engineering dept. then it came on 10 min later....

I wonder if the engineers found the problem today yet?

Tim

To Dave McKinley:

NBC HD is up and stable on my Sammy TS160 less than 3 miles from the tower. Rare instances of pixelation, usually confined to in a small portion of the screen for very brief periods.

Leno looked great on 6/5. (The show, not the host!)

Kentucky Derby was just gorgeous on Saturday.

Audio was a little spotty over the weekend, though.

Looks like WPTV can now broadcast whatever NBC feeds in HD. Congratulations! Just wish there was more programming . . .

On that note, this viewer would be very happy indeed if you could set up an HD broadcast of your local newscasts. That would be a major advance in this market and really set you apart from your competitors.

Good luck.

Still no WPTV< NBC> here in Loxahatchee. Receive all the other network feeds no
problem, Stealthtenna mounted on the roof, Mits Ws-65511 built in HDTV.

WPTV DT Update
Goods news, bad news. Some tests and feedback needed.
We got the test equipment and PSIP equipment back today. We took readings at the encoder output, the input to the microwave link, the output of the microwave link, the output of the DA that feeds the transmitter and over the air signals. ALL parameters look superb. We detected no problems in the signal stream inbound to the HD transmitter nor on over the air signals. We then did testing of HD signals we could pick up, here is what we found.
WPTV DT Center pilot signal right on target, with 2 minor side lobes
WLTV DT Ch. 24 Same carrier as WPTV DT
WFOR DT Ch.22 Same carrier as WPTV DT
WPEC DT Ch. 13 Not broadcasting at test time
WPBF DT Ch.16 Same carrier as WPTV DT, BUT ALSO many suprious signals on the higher end
WFLX DT Ch. 28 Very similar to WPBF DT signal
The feed back I need from everyone is are those of you having problems picking up WPTV DT 55(5-1) ALSO having problems getting WFOR and WLTV? Their digital 4:3 feeds today looked superb, WPBF and WFLX have noticable artifacts in their upconverted analog signal, and appears to be a subpar transmission on the tests we performed today. Do you notice that as well in a comparison? We now are moving onto the transmitter to discuss a possible "phase" problem that could be another culprit to the scenario, but it SHOULD have shown up in the testing we did today. We have info already at the transmitter manufacturer, and a conference call tommorrow to discuss further any info they can provide. We are still passing NBC HD when available, but also need to solve a minor automation issue to make it more automatic for our operators...to make sure ALL HD shows available make it to air. We are also working on a contact at Hughes to discuss the issue that COULD be with the boxes to see if they have any idea...more so than their recent download, which evidently was not the fix for this area. Stay tuned, and please continue to post any updates, good or bad that will help us all. Thanks Dave

DAve @ 11:06 Pm still the signal is boucing from the mid 30's to 0, I cant lock it ...

Dave, its not just the Hughes boxes. Many box types are not recieving the signal very well. The RCA-100 (truly a 1st generation box) is having problems. Many have the Hughes 86 which is a pretty new generation STB. I have a Zenith 1080 which is 1 or 2 generations old but much newer than most boxes (many argued it was "state of the art" last year). I get the same situation that most present- spikes in signal up and down, pixelating pictures, followed by some moments of black (no signal), followed by pixelating pictures. Audio is also unstable.

I have maxed my personal equipment with a Blake JBX21 UHF aerial (mounted high on a pole outdoors), a rotor for precise pointing, a Winegard preamp (best they make), and the Zenith STB. Every other HD station in our area comes in stable. Many Miami stations come in quite good as well. I even pull a few from Orlando. I can pull in WLTV and WFOR much better than 55-1.

Every once in a while- for short periods of time- I get a somewhat stable picture on 55-1. During these times, scene changes in which there is a lot of visual change will show modest pixelation. But then, inevitably, we're back to this heavily pixelating picture as the "norm".

A friend has the Zenith TV with built-in decoder (apparently based on the same chip platform in my STB). He lives just a few miles from the tower and says he gets 55-1 just fine. But move out from the tower and some strange things seem to happen. It seems extremely localized DTV recievers are generally working (some exceptions) but a little distance tends to add a lot of problem. Of course, I'm a lot further from the sources of working HD signals from Miami and Orlando, so I know I'm not "too far away". I hope something in this helps.

Dave --
I hope that in your conversations with Hughes you make it clear that your station is the only one with which we are having reception problems.

It would be less than desirable for them to download something in an attempt to help us receive your signal at the expense of negatively affecting our reception of other stations.

Dave, I have no problems receiving any of the stations you mentioned except WPTV -DT on RCA DTC100, Mitsubishi SR-HD5 (which is a Hughes E86 clone) and the ATSC tuner built-in to my Zenith IQB64W10W HDTV. I should note, however, that when tuning WLTV-DT and WPBF-DT the audio takes a while to lock on all three tuners, as well as on WSVN-DT.

Basically, though, I get every DTV station in Miami and West Palm Beach on all three tuners except WPTV-DT.

As for WFOR-DT, it's the most reliable signal of all...no dropouts except occasionally when there's low-flying aircraft near my house. I get dropouts on WPEC-DT (I suspect due to some kind of interference) but never on WFOR-DT.

as I have stated before I get all MAJOR stations no problem 4.1 7.1 10.1 12.1 12.2 25.1 29.1 39.1..I also get 33.1 and 34.1 but they are less reliable
hughes e86 in w.p.b

Dave,

I'm using Samsung's latest HD OTA tuner, and I receive all of the Miami digital stations as well as WLFX-DT with an amplified indoor antenna. Sometimes when it's raining I can even get the NBC affiliate in Naples, though the signal is very weak. With WPTV however, I get a fairly strong signal, but the signal strength intermittently drops down to zero. There is frequent freezing and pixellation, and on some days the tuner (an SIR-T165) cannot lock onto the signal at all. In fact, last Saturday's Triple Crown race was the last time I was able to watch WPTV.

Rudy

P. S.:

Our Transmitter Supervisor, Jerry Rector, tells me that out DTV transmitter has not been off the air, so I don't know why you weren't able to receive us, Dave.

WPTV Dave,

I am located at Haverhill and Melaleuca. I have a
Sony HD100 and can receive all the Miami and West
Palm channels except WPTV. I haven't had a signal from
WPTV that my tuner could lock onto for weeks.

AgilScot

WPTV Dave,

Not just Hughes having a problem w/your signal...I have a Sony HD-100 and can receive all the Miami and West Palm channels except WPTV. I haven't had a signal from WPTV that my receiver could lock onto since you started transmitting. My location is in Delray Beach.

WFOR-22 Signal Strength is 98-100
WLTV-24 Signal Strength is 97-100
Chan 5 Signal 0-25 (bouncing)

Why don't you guys try to duplicate the problem with one of the 1st gen receivers. Someone at your station must have one to try. You are welcome to visit my location to view the problem.

Gene

Why doesn't someone compile a list of stb's - there aren't THAT many out there - that do and do not get wptv. We know the new zenith hd520 and sony hd200 do get wptv fine, many others noted here do not. Once a complete list is made, then maybe the problem can be solved backwards by comparing the boxes to one another, that is, by comparing what the boxes that do not get wptv have in common with each other, but do not have in common with the boxes that do get wptv. Just a thought.

Dave --
WFOR, WLTV and all other Miami stations are at 100 at all times. WPB WFLX is usually in the high 70s and low 80s, but sometimes goes to 100. WPTV has never shown a signal above 0. (E86)

Here's a link to a poll I created. Vote for any receiver you're using that has a problem with WPTV-DT:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=269073

Dave
To help further, can you do a poll for those folks who ARE getting WPTV DT? Its also a good way to see how many more viewers are out there. We will be getting our hands on an E86 box shortly, we also have a trip set up next week to go to Pittsburgh for transmitter school and present the issue there and see if it can be duplicated in the lab. Davde

I have a Samsung SIR-T150 and a Samsung SIR-T165. I still cannot receive WPTV. I get perfect reception on WFLX 29 with 5 bars on both receivers. On WPTV I get 3 bars but the receivers will not lock. The LED just constantly changes from green to red and back. The signal meter keeps jumping from 0 to 3 bars and back. I receive all other miami stations perfectly with no problem. I tried tonight from 6 to 8pm. They both have remapped to 5-1. :confused:

Hi all.

Still receiving 0% - 18% on a Toshiba DST 3000 in Stuart, FL using a Zenith Silver Sensor.

WFOR-22 Signal Strength is 0
WLTV-24 Signal Strength is 0

Okay, guys, you can inform us of receivers that get WPTV-DT as well as any other DTV station here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2316840#post2316840

Last night I hooked up HDV420 and was able to get 5-1 with over 90% strength (Tested between 9:40 PM and 10:15 PM). No Audio or pixelation

I have been getting WPTV DT with NO problems in Margate since it started broadcasting. Last night I got 2 hours of Law & Order with No pixelization and only one drop out for about 5 seconds during a commercial (probably due to the station making some adjustments. I use the Dish 6000 STB. How come DISH wasn't mentioned in list of STB's. I have had both Directv and Dish and I find Dish grossly superior.
Tony

Hi, Tony,

I should have mentioned the 6000 but forgot about it. I was using the HDTV Hardware Forum STB synopsis and must have missed it. I hope you selected "Other" and thanks for posting good success with the 6000.

Dave, just thought you'd like to know, if you don't already, that Leno was
not in HD last night. I assume that this is because the person in master
control forgot to switch it on -- in fact, the previous two nights as I
recall, Leno HD didn't switch on until almost half way through the show. I
also assume that the minor automation issue you've referred to will cure the human factor, but still, if I'm right about what happened, maybe a big fat yellow sticky pad with the words "Leno after the news - switch to HD!"
would help! :) bye. p.s. Law & Order looked GREAT IN HD last night!

Mark.

David McRoy; I just messed up!!! I voted on the "no problems with WPTV" poll for my e86. I am having problems, and I have subsequently voted on the "I am have problems" poll.

Please remember to subtract 1 from the e86 total when tallying!!

Done.

This is starting to resemble the 2000 Florida presidential election voting follies. Where is Katherine Harris when we need her? <big G>

My sentiments exactly !

:D :D :D :D

Can I vote again too???

Even though I am not a Palm Beach county resident (I was one during the 1980's) or even a resident of south Florida I demand a re-vote because I have special needs and couldn't select the 4 HD candidates for a single office that I wanted. I only selected DTC100 with problems. Then later they changed the ballot on me and I was really confused. :rolleyes: :mad:

I voted again, this time I selected my HD 420 had no problems, then I also wrote on the ballot that my DTC 100 and my Panasonic DST 52 had problems. But I just realized something else I forgot to mention my Unity motion had problems with WPTV-DT.


:D :D :D :D

Seriously, to what lengths will everybody go to before WPTV-DT accepts that the problem is them. Why are they bothering STB makers to come up with a fix to a problem that is so obviously unique to them. Maybe all of you will be in luck soon as WTVJ-DT is set to come up in the next few weeks.

WPTV Dave,

It appears that you guys are not passing the NBC HD feed again. I checked ER and Leno. Neither was in HD. Is this related to the automation issue you discussed earlier?

No HD tonight. At least last night law and order was passed, while leno was not. Dave, what's up?

Sorry, folks, the polls are now closed!

I just checked with Judge Berman, Carol Roberts and Theresa LaPore and they've all agreed to sign-off on the results:

My interpretation of the results of our very small turnout, including votes plus statements by those whose receiver was not on the ballot (write-in votes, if you will):

1. 32 receivers have serious problems receiving WPTV-DT while 17 have no problems;so problem receivers outnumber those with no problem by nearly 2 to 1

2. Most of the problem receivers are of older design

3. Nonetheless, there are brand-new, latest-generation receivers that have problems, too

4. A few E86s or clones thereof, thought to have been the most problematic, have no problems


I conclude that even if we all went out and replaced our receivers with new ones tomorrow we would still not all be able to receive the station. However, it would appear that your best chances would lie with the Zenith HD520 (DirecTV HD plus NTSC/ATSC), the Zenith HD420 (NTSC/ATSC only), and the Sony SAT-HD200 (which is a clone of the LG Electronics-manufactured Zenith HD520) .


I have been in contact with Dave McKinley on this and offered any assistance that we may be able to provide. They are still trying to figure out how to rectify the situation.

David McRoy:

How about your problem with WPEC-DT? I'm still getting only 2 channel stereo on my Yamaha 2300. If I recall correctly, you said that the problem was in your Dolby setup. Any progress?

Alan,

The Dolby E equipment is in the rack and lit-up but not yet activated for air. I'll let you all know as soon as it's online.

Dave McKinley does not seem to think there is a problem with their (Ch 5) transmission signal integrity. For anyone wishing to file a complaint with the FCC here is whats required:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The FCC Enforcement Bureau, Technical & Public Safety Division,
(www.fcc.gov/eb/tpsd/) investigates complaints from the public, involving
technical broadcast rules such as excessive power, construction and/or
operation outside of the scope of station authorization, and unlicensed (or
"pirate") operation of a broadcast station.

The division investigates complaints, sent in writing to:

Federal Communications Commission
Enforcement Bureau
Technical & Public Safety Division
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, DC 20554

Complaints should include the call sign and community of the station allegedly in violation, detailed facts regarding the nature of the violation, any available supporting documentation, and the name and address of the
complainant.

Originally posted by geneter
Dave McKinley does not seem to think there is a problem with their (Ch 5) transmission signal integrity. For anyone wishing to file a complaint with the FCC here is whats required:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The FCC Enforcement Bureau, Technical & Public Safety Division,
(www.fcc.gov/eb/tpsd/) investigates complaints from the public, involving
technical broadcast rules such as excessive power, construction and/or
operation outside of the scope of station authorization, and unlicensed (or
"pirate") operation of a broadcast station.

The division investigates complaints, sent in writing to:

Federal Communications Commission
Enforcement Bureau
Technical & Public Safety Division
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, DC 20554

Complaints should include the call sign and community of the station allegedly in violation, detailed facts regarding the nature of the violation, any available supporting documentation, and the name and address of the
complainant.

Dave McKinley posted the following earlier this week:

"We will be getting our hands on an E86 box shortly, we also have a trip set up next week to go to Pittsburgh for transmitter school and present the issue there and see if it can be duplicated in the lab. "

I think it would be best to wait until they get back from Pittsburgh before formalizing any complaints against WPTV. I am just as pissed as everyone else, but I think we ought to give them more time to try to resolve these issues. Mr. McKinley has already admitted that they have no clue why so many are having reception difficulties, and I believe him.

Rudy

You'd be wasting your time with the FCC. As I have stated several times on this thread WPTV-DT is under Program Test Authority and they can mess with the signal all they want for as long as the think its necessary.

Patience. As I recall, it took several weeks for WFOR-DT to fix their early transmission problems. There were long threads of speculation here as to where the fault lay; but in the end they got it right.

When WPTV finally admits to themselves that the problem emanates from their end and not from our receivers, they should eventually be able to resolve the situation. If not, WTVJ is coming soon.

WPTV's General Manager, Bill Peterson, used to be my GM at WPEC and Chief Engineer Dave McKinley used to work here, too. I know them both very well. Trust me, this will be fixed.

Here are some facts to ponder:

1. WPTV had an article published in the Palm Beach Post about a month ago “announcing they are on-the air broadcasting Digital TV.” I then sent an E-Mail to Dave asking if they were officially broadcasting and not still working out the bugs. His reply was YES – if I was unable to pick up their digital signal on Chan 55 then the problem was my equipment and that I should re-map to Chan 5.1.

2. Channel 5 (VHF) has announced they are now broadcasting Digital on Chan 5.1 over 2 weeks ago!

3. Dave has minimized any problems with customers not being able to receive their digital signal as minimal and probably due to “old receivers”, “software updates required”, “technicians coming to help”, and now “the latest being “going to school next week and will ask ?”.

4. Dave asked for a poll to see ostensibly what % or how many people and what model receiver they have. Do you really think this was done to “fix the problem” or perhaps to again minimize it?

5. Check out this link full of propaganda by WPTV
http://www.digitaltelevision.com/2001/cover/0401.1.shtml

6. If WPTV was really working this as a problem they would have tried to duplicate the problem weeks ago!

Okay, geneter, bitch to the FCC and see how far you get.

WPTV is diligently working on the problem. That's the bottom line with the Commission. They're sending engineers to a conference hosted by their DTV transmitter manufacturer next week to try and duplicate the problem and find a solution. What more can they do?

Please keep in mind that, like my station, they have to operate an analog station and deal with DTV issues at the same time. They are within the law on this issue and still pulling their hair out over it.

BTW, you need to get you "Daves" in order. You are confusing me with Dave McKinley at WPTV.

And welcome back, Rodmanbra!

Originally posted by geneter

Check out this link full of propaganda by WPTV
http://www.digitaltelevision.com/2001/cover/0401.1.shtml



I especially liked this quote from their old GM:

"it's my understanding from people who are well-traveled that this is the finest television station in America."

Out of all the stations, in all the markets, not to mention network operations centers an affiliate in the 39th market has the best facility in America, get real! If you believe that hot air then I have some swamp land I would like to sell.

All digital facilities are the norm for stations that have engineers that are up to speed and management to back them. The fact that WPTV, in the year 2003, just moved into an all digital plant shows how behind the curve they really are with technology. They are not technology leaders otherwise they would have been the first on the air and would pay top dollar for technology. Their philosophy is quite the opposite I am afraid. Like many others it is apparent that WPTV waits for the prices of technology to come down before they make a purchase. With that kind of stance you have no chance of being the latest and greatest as their GM thinks. They are blowing smoke if I have ever seen it.

How can a station that doesn't even have a DTV mask of their own to spec their signal be the best in America? Yeah right!

If they only had the experts to go along with their facility then they might have the finest TV station in America. Scripps owned stations are not exactly technology leaders. Be the first in Florida to actually get a HD newscast on the air then you might have claim to being a leader in Florida, but the entire country? Jeez, get in line!

Another good laugh. :D

I also hope WPTV-DT is able to isolate and fix the problems with Hughes E86 type receivers very soon. But I'm somewhat skeptical given the length of time they've been "officially" on the air with a digital transmission that omits a significant number of HD receivers. I'm also concerned about the emphasis towards receivers able to pickup WPTV-DT south of the WPB viewing area. Isn't WPTV-DT supposed to be a WPB station broadcasting to Palm Beach County and the Treasure Coast?

Hey people, where is the love? Can't we all just get along?

I just watched "Law and Order SVU". Perfect reception on my Dish 6k.

No point in getting mad. Wait for WTVJ or get Bell ExpressVu. It's only TV.

acesk8er

...WTVJ used these old test patterns as part of their HDTV tests... ;-)

http://www.nbc6.net/nbc6/1221683/detail.html

For the first time since WPTV went digital I am not getting a signal on 5.1. My signal strength is steady at about 85%. What is the deal. I hope that in trying to solve the problem with E86 receivers WPTV hoses those of us who are having no problem receiving the signal.

If HD is to become successful, the HD stations are going to have to be able to get their digital signals to all HD receivers. IMO those of you that encourage less are threatening the acceptance of HD.

No sound on 25-1 or 12-1; did a re-scan on my Samsung 160 and lost 5-1 all together. Are they even on the air?
Anyone else having trouble??

Like ANSEK, for the first time ever today I'm getting nothing on 5.1, except a very strong signal on my signal bar. Just blackness.

I spoke with the lady in "master control" at WPTV, who in the past has been very helpful (last week when Leno was not being shown in HD, I called her ten minutes in and she said "oops", and instantly switched it on and said "there ya go", which I thought was really cool). Anyway, she says that she knows and that the engineers, including Dave McKinley, know that they have been black all day. She says that at this point THEY HAVE NO EARTHLY IDEA WHY, but they're working on it. Perhaps our DAVE MCCROY has an idea or two about what this latest problem could be (same strong signal strength as always to those of us who have received them from day 1 in april, but for the first time ever a black screen and no sound). I'm copying this message to dave mccroy.

Dave McRoy,

Did you guys at WPEC-D have this many problems for the first couple of months when you went live? I understand Dave and all the folks at WPTV-D are working very hard to the best of their abilities to make their broadcasts stable and the highest of quality, but it seems as if things were not exactly "in place" when they went live and still are not in the best working condition today. If they still have to constantly "mickey mouse" with their equipment now after many weeks, shouldn't they get some more help to get it right? If their analog signal was this undependable at this juncture, I'd say they would really be in trouble, but since it's "only" their digital and HD broadcasts, then I guess Scripps thinks it's ok to tinker with their equipment until 2006. Does anyone know if the WPTV General Manager and Scripps managament team understand how embarrasing this looks for their supposed "highest of high-tech" NBC affiliate? Maybe I'm overstating this a bit and all the stations that go live with digital broadcasts have been in the same boat at one time, but I still think that in today's high-tech world, this kind of "go-live" scenario should be done properly with few(er) complications. I have lived here since 1987 watching WPTV (and enjoing their newscasts and NBC programming for many years) and always had the utmost respect for their station, but since I've had my HD equipment, I have found myself respecting WPEC and WPBF a lot more while losing some respect for WPTV. I seem to be watching a lot more of the other networks which appear to have their act together in today's digital world. I do not mean for this to be a bashing on WPTV; simply a wake up call for them. BTW - I use the Sony HD-200 and have basically seen a good strong digital signal from them since their go-live date (unlike many of the others with older boxes), when it's working and they remember to "flip" the HD feed switch.

5-1 is back up now.

That is the answer.
The money the station puts in for digital is REALLY for the facility !
That is what the rave is.
They spend $millions on the lab, offices for the execs, walk in lobby, and then a little for the equipment.
Now, what they don't have is talent, operational experience, or even test equipment.

Yes, 5-1 will eventually get up and going.
They hear that there are problems, but, there are people out there receiving digital, so it is not a hot priority.

They are probably asking for warantee service to check out the system.
So, they are put on a list.

But, I bet they got new computers etc. so they can tell the world that they are spending $$$$ and are looking into problems.

NBC is putting more time and money into facilities before anything else.

So as we hold our breath and wait for WPTV to discover their problem and fix it I have a question that someone here might know the answer to. Is it possible that the WPTV problem could be affecting the signal that I receive from WPEC? My reception from WPEC has been flawless until 55 has been attempting to come on the air. I still get 100% signal for WPEC on both of my receivers but will get break up in picture now and then even with that high of a signal strength. Never a problem before 55 started to transmit. Nothing has changed with the antenna position or cable. Could this WPTV problem be related in some way? I own a MitsHd4 and a new Hughes HD receiver and have the same problem on both. By the way am not able to get WPTV on either.

I too have noticed a change in the way I receive WFLX FOX 29-1 (UHF 28) since WPTV started "testing" their digital TV. I'm not an engineer but WPEC digital broadcasts on the VHF band, channel 13. I don't think that a UHF channel would interfere with a VHF channel. But, could there be a harmonic or mirror image of UHF channel 55 and UHF channel 28. Consider that half of 55 would be 27.5 - close enough to 28 to cause a "half-wave" problem? That may also explain why people further away from the transmitter receive the signal better than someone within a few miles.
Someone should ask the equipment manufacturers in Canada if this is the problem. On second thought.....

Originally posted by ElectricPickle
But, could there be a harmonic or mirror image of UHF channel 55 and UHF channel 28. Consider that half of 55 would be 27.5 - close enough to 28 to cause a "half-wave" problem?

No, you are forgeting about frequency.
Channels 27 or 28 are not half the FREQUENCY of channel 55.
Channel assignment #s have no correlation to the frequency they actually occupy. Of the top of my head I would say that 55 is centered on 719 mhz. Half of that would be around 360 mhz, which is not even occupied by any OTA stations.

Originally posted by satpro
No, you are forgeting about frequency.
Channels 27 or 28 are not half the FREQUENCY of channel 55.
Channel assignment #s have no correlation to the frequency they actually occupy. Of the top of my head I would say that 55 is centered on 719 mhz. Half of that would be around 360 mhz, which is not even occupied by any OTA stations. That's true. I forgot about that. I guess the FCC wouldn't allocate the spectrum if there were potential for interference in the first place. Oh well. I stopped watching WPTV years ago anyway.

Can WPTV's problem affect another's stations signal if it is seriously multi-pathing or reflecting in a erratic way? It just seems like too much of a coincidence that a few of us are experiencing the same symptoms when 55 went on the air. We all know there is something seriously wrong with their signal.

Channel 7 174-180mhz
Channel 8 180-186mhz
Channel 12 204-210mhz
Channel 13 210-216mhz
Channel 14 470-476mhz
Channel 28 554-560mhz
Channel 29 560-566mhz
Channel 55 716-722mhz

Still no WPTV DT 55 signal in Coral Gables. WFXL DT 28 comes in great!:D

dharding reported:
"Still no WPTV DT 55 signal in Coral Gables. WFXL DT 28 comes in great!"

Make that two of us.

Again they were black today, so even those of us who normally get 5-1 got zippo today. This is ridiculous.

I wonder why advertisers pay anything to show re-runs for the 3rd or 4th time ?????
They should drop all payments, until some newer shows are up.
Then the stations will get into "programmings programs"

Another idea is "share the wealth"
That is one station has new shows for 1 week, then another stations for the next week.

For those of you who normally get 55-1, we feel your pain, honest. You might want to check your receiver, it may be on the WPTV's newly revised incompatible list. :D

I've been giving some thought to 5-1 continuing problems, and I'm of the mindset that 2 types of process of elimination need to be conducted. One is to start switching out each piece of hardware and software involved at 5-1 to see if they can isolate the culprit. Two, would be our own process of elimination.

Can we as a group come up with anything else that might be to blame? All I can tell for sure that has been ruled out is that distance from the tower does not appear to be an issue, as people both near and far are and are not locking the signal.

I believe we can make a very reasonable assumption that the continued "blame the 'old' STBs" argument has no merit, as newer STB's are also having problems (and it really shouldn't be this anyway- is there a broadcast standard or not?).

So what else can we try to deduce that might help isolate the problem? Here's a few ideas to get us started:

1. Could it be directional? 5 says its broadcasting in all directions, but maybe the proper signal is somehow only blasting out in a rather tight beam or two (or ten), with an erroneaus beam broadcasting out in other swaths. If enough people shared an address (or a nearby address of a public place), we could plot those recieving on a map and see if there is any merit to this idea. For privacy sake, I would encourage you to use the yellow pages to get the address of the nearest business (ideally between you and the tower) and post that address. Then, it's pretty easy to use mapquest or similar to start pinpointing locations and posting them. Those that can't get the signal should post too, so that we can tag potential vectors that are not getting the signal. In theory, those recieving a good signal should almost randomly scatter on a map. But I wonder if that's how this would come out.

2. I know that this might be even wilder speculation, but I would be curious to know if perhaps 5-1, having apparently purchased technology so new that it's broadcast is incompatible with a cross-section of "older" STB's, might have a setting (defaulted) to the equivalent of "scramble"- except for those connected via DVI, etc. If such settings are defaulting "on", then maybe we are all getting a good signal, that will not lock because many of us with "older" STBs are not connected via the new anti-piracy connections.

3. My guts (again pure speculation) keep making me think the problem might be in the audio merge. I can sometimes lock a signal that stays for a while then becomes unstable, and I notice what appears to be a relationship between Dolby Digital and the pixelation. Maybe the Dolby Digital is just first to fail when the signal strength is shifting, but it appears that it goes and is immediately (I mean less than 1 second) by picture problems. The sound almost always seems to go first. If 5 does the process of elimination on their end, the first thing this would make me check is disconnect the Dolby encoder from the mix. Second would be whatever merges the audio tracks with the video.

All 3 of these ideas are unexperienced, gut guesses. I'm sure some of you could come up with others that are smarter and possibly more relevant to a process of elimination that we could actually do. I'm also confident that some of the engineers might be able to dismiss, for example, #1 for some technical reason beyond me. My thinking is simply this: they've gone to the lab to try to simulate the problem (in other words, they have no idea); so, maybe we could do some more work on a variety of other possiblities and see if we can come up with a few theories of our own.

What do you think?

Darryl --
Regarding No 1, I think it highly unlikely to impossible that all of the so-called "older receiver" owners participating in this thread reside by chance in whatever holes might exist in the transmission pattern.

As I recall, there were 30+ no signal old receiver responders in the poll; and that the three who said they had a signal subsequently admitted to being "Florida voters"<g> and withdrew their affirmative responses.

Darryl,

I know that No 1 for a fact is not case, I have a DTC 100 which has never been able to lock in on 55, but it locks in find with all other stations. I installed an IRD 6000 and all I did was put a splitter on OTA signal coming from antenna and connected to TV and with the IRD 6000 I can get 55 and all other digital channels with no problem using same setup as used for DTC 100.

Thanks,

Dr Guava

It's looking good on eliminating a directional hypothesis (#1 above). Thanks guys! It was just non-expert, wild speculation on my part anyway.

So how about speculation #2 & #3? Or how about members of this thread offering other ideas that we could test as a group that might prove out? I understand that this is longshot thinking, but if 5-1 doesn't have many ideas left, we may as well try some educated guesses and deduction. Maybe we can only figure out what "can't be" (the problem), which would leave us with a list of "what might be the problem". That could offer a shortcut to the ultimate solution in and of itself.

There's a lot of smart people on this thread, so consider it an intellectual challenge to identify things that a group as diverse as this could test in an effort to isolate the real possibilities.

The only time that I was able to pick up a good steady picture on 55, only briefly, was during a heavy rain storm between me and the towers. The towers are about 2 miles due south of me.

I cannot lock a signal on my Samsung SIR-T150 or on my Samsung SIR-T165 which is a 3rd generation current new receiver. :confused:

Also When they first went on the air I was getting them perfectly for a couple of days then I could no longer lock on them.

Finally got 5-1 with my DTC-100 in Fort Lauderdale. I guess they fixed the problem.
Hurrah.

They definitely did something because I'm getting a picture on my hipix for the first time.

Dave

Also getting WPTV 5-1 - also hope they've finally solved the problem.

Getting them here at a solid 100 signal. Seeing slight lip sync problem but otherwise trouble-free so far.

Congratulations, Dave and everyone at WPTV DOE!

Oops...looks like they're still tweaking tonight. (Frequent loss of signal but at least I'm getting something!)

Getting WPTV here too! This is cause for a major celebration!

Woo-hoo!

:D

I did a little tweaking of the antenna and I'm getting 5-1 solid 100 now.
Mitsubishi HD-5

Getting 5-1 here as well with 100% signal and Great PQ. Good work guys.

Finally steady 98% on my sony hd 100 at Glades and 441, long time waiting!:) :)

WPTV Dave,

Nice to see your signal again! Getting a strong steady 79 in N.Miami (DST3000) with an excellent picture. Please let us know what the problem was and how you fixed it. Thanks for your reply and listening to us on the forum!

Mark_T

I am getting a nice and steady 79 here in South West Miami-Dade with an e86... I am a happy MoFo... Too bad this didn't take place yesterday... I would have loved to see Drew Barrymore's dirty pillows in HD glory...

Me too. I'm in Hobe Sound and am getting a very stable 5-1 for the first time. I'm almost afraid to turn it off for fear it will revert.

My question: was it #3 or just amazing (timing) coincidence? ;)

Just kidding. I guess the "lab" people may have earned their pay. Thanks to whoever was responsible. I can already hear Etta James wailing her biggest soulful hit.

Yes, things are looking good. The lip-sync issue seems consistent so that should be an easy fix.

Looking forward to some NBC-HD.

Kudos to our worthy competitors!

Yehhaa!!! RCA-DTC-100 on the beach in Fort lauderdale recieving 55-2 at 70-73 signal strength and good picture. Very stable for the 3 mins I watched!!!

Seems like they finally found their problem. Now to figure out why there is no sound. I'm not getting a digital sound on my processor. It's 825pm. I put picture stability right up there with ABC Miami for the time that I watched. No pixelation no strength fluctuations.

Tim Huey

edit:
Sound was on my end. Rebooted processor and it locked on to the digital sound. Lip sync issue doesn't seem to be affecting me. If it is, it's less than an 1/8 of a second off.

BTW, I'm not getting 55-1, not sure why but 55-2 is what my reciever gets.

Tim Huey

Still zero signal from 55 on E86.
WFLX 28 is at 100.
???

Yeah, Tim, 55-2 is kinda wierd. I remember my DTC100 showing 28-2 instead of 29-1 back when WFLX-DT first went on the air. Probably something non-copacetic (sp.?) with WPTV-DT's PSIP code. I'm sure they'll fix that eventually.

Originally posted by wjbjr
Still zero signal from 55 on E86.
WFLX 28 is at 100.
???

Bill,

Have you tried adjusting your antenna? (Can't remember what antenna you have.)

Originally posted by David McRoy
Bill,

Have you tried adjusting your antenna? (Can't remember what antenna you have.)

David --

No antenna adjustment. I thought that the tower was close to that of WFLX. Antenna is starting RS outdoor VHF/UHF.

Frankly, I don't want to adjust it at the risk of losing my 100 readings on all of the Miami stations and high readings on WFLX.

I guess I will just wait and wait some more for WTVJ-DT. This presents no current problem, as I don't watch NBC except for 'The West Wing', which is now in repeats (which I also do not watch) and will not be in HD until the fall.

I am finally getting 55-1 at strength of 88% on RCA DTC 100 in Weston.

100% now in Port Saint Lucie on DST3000. Would love to now what changed?

Yes!!! I want to know too. What was the fly in the ointment.

Tim Huey

Looks like they are trying to switch to the HD feed of Law and Order and having probs right now

Has WTVXDT (34-1) ever transmitted "Evergreen" in HD? According to TitanTV it's presented in HD, but I've never received anything by a SD picture just like tonight.

I guess WPTVDT (5-1) is having problems with the HD transmission of "Law and Order" tonight. There was a couple of times it looked like an attempt was being made to switch to HD because the screen went black and flickered. But at least I'm getting a strong (100) digital signal now although I've gotten a couple of short video freezes.

I'm also getting a higher number of pixelizations on WPECDT (12-1) lately, perhaps due to weather conditions. I've seen someone else report that on this forum.

Yeah no HD here at 1037

Tim

Looks like it's all screwed up again... come on guys! I wanted to see Leno tongiht in HD! Good luck!

Originally posted by TimHuey
Yes!!! I want to know too. What was the fly in the ointment.

Tim Huey

Isn't it obvious what they did? They added a generation to our receivers. Those engineers are pretty good.

Not looking good for Leno! I was staying up just to watch.

Tim

Originally posted by aviators99
Isn't it obvious what they did? They added a generation to our receivers. Those engineers are pretty good.

BWAHAHAA!!!

Tim

The graphics and News Station images look great. The roving reporter stuff of course isn't as sharp. I see some pretty good clarity on the anchors, lots of detail. The image is still SD but very clear.

Tim Huey

Originally posted by David McRoy
Yeah, Tim, 55-2 is kinda wierd. I remember my DTC100 showing 28-2 instead of 29-1 back when WFLX-DT first went on the air. Probably something non-copacetic (sp.?) with WPTV-DT's PSIP code. I'm sure they'll fix that eventually.


55.2 would be normal for a station using a Tandberg encoder and no remapping.

Glad to hear WPTV-DT is finally showing on most/all ATSC decoders.

Still waiting to hear the real story though, hopefully it will help another station if a similar problem is encountered.

I still suspect it was related to the Axcera transmitter and 8VSB modulation and they finally learned how to fix the problem from attending transmitter school.

In fact, some transmitter manufactures won't even allow a station to turn on the transmitter until after someone on staff has attended a seminar on proper operation techniques. It is often a requirement for warranty service.

I wonder if they know that many additional people are watching tonight. I hope they get the HD switch when Leno comes on. It would be embarrasing to forget it when everyone is watching. If the feed is bad, that's a different story but just the switch would be humiliating.

Tim Huey

I saw no effort to switch to HD during L&O. Just same old same old SD.
This is really getting annoying!

I just saw the flash, loss of picture for about 5 to 6 secs then back to SD. I think it's more than just the switch. At least the lady tried. Is it the receptionist that answers the phone that is doing the switch. Someone said they called her and told her to turn it on last week.

Tim Huey

It was me who called, and it worked. You have to ask for "master control". There's a lady there who works at this time. Call her and at the very least she'll tell you what the trouble is.

I guess that now everyone is receiving it OK Coral Gables must be in a dead spot. Still just a flickering led on my samsung SIR-T150. SIR-T165 still unable to lock and switches to analog 55 in homestead. I have adjusted the antenna a RS double bow tie to no avail. WFXL DT 28 comes in perfectly with 5 bars. I am 150 feet in the air facing north towards west palm beach. Every other channel perfect! I guess I will wait for WTVJ DT 31. :(