After spending almost 1 month with the RS2 and the Planar 8150, I concluded the faults I see on the RS2 maybe are on the new RS20: soft compared to the best DLPs, motion smear, visible noise is some images and light spill visible around the screen (very annoying in some scenes!)...And I dont talk about colors because this is corrected on the new RS20.

I decided to stay with the Planar 8150 because the picture is cleaner, sharpest, much more tolerable motion smear and no light spill at all around the screen.

The RS2 is superior in very dark images, but sincerly the Planar 8150 is very good too in that particular scenes and I dont see any pump in brightness with Dynamic Iris on. ´

And in mid to high APL images the Planar is as good and sometimes superior in image depth.

Maybe the RS20 will correct some of this faults, and if I see the RS20 have a really superior PQ than the Planar 8150 I will sell it and buy the RS20.

Nuno Sousa

The thought crossed my mind to look at the Planar when it seemed that the wait for the RS20 might be an extended one.

I ruled it out every time because I knew that I would not be happy with the lower CR and knew that I would really regret not waiting for things like the adjustible iris, gamma control and full CMS.

I never had an issue with motion on my RS1 so presumably I won't with the RS20.

Now, after spending some time again with a DLP, I am reminded of the kind of digital quality to the image and have realized that I much prefer the LCOS look. I can understand how someone might prefer the DLP look, but I just don't.

Enjoy the Planar.

Makes me wonder if I could be happy with any projector. I've had all DLPs so far, and they've all thrown a great picture overall. But so far they've all "fallen apart" to some degree in dark scenes. The RS line sounds like they would solve that dark scene problem, but then I hear about all the other (potential) issues, like uniformity, motion blur, convergence, and I can't help but wonder if I'd be trading one annoyance for a different, possibly bigger one.

Maybe my best hope at the moment is that LED/Laser lead to a significant native/static CR boost for DLP to get it in the range of DiLA, without the drawbacks. I'm not holding out much hope.

Enjoy your projector!

After spending almost 1 month with the RS2 and the Planar 8150, I concluded the faults I see on the RS2 maybe are on the new RS20: soft compared to the best DLPs, motion smear, visible noise is some images and light spill visible around the screen (very annoying in some scenes!)...And I dont talk about colors because this is corrected on the new RS20.

I decided to stay with the Planar 8150 because the picture is cleaner, sharpest, much more tolerable motion smear and no light spill at all around the screen.

The RS2 is superior in very dark images, but sincerly the Planar 8150 is very good too in that particular scenes and I dont see any pump in brightness with Dynamic Iris on. ´

And in mid to high APL images the Planar is as good and sometimes superior in image depth.

Maybe the RS20 will correct some of this faults, and if I see the RS20 have a really superior PQ than the Planar 8150 I will sell it and buy the RS20.

Nuno Sousa

First of all, you should enjoy your Planar, it is a great projector!
Now, regarding the comparison with the JVC's, a while ago we did a "quick and dirty" shoot-out (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14155904&highlight=#post14155904) of the 8150 vs RS1/RS2 and I do not agree with your findings about 8150 being better " ... because the picture is cleaner, sharpest, much more tolerable motion smear..". Unless, you have the sharpness controls of the 8150 activated, OR your RS2 had bad convergence, I would not expect the 8150 being sharper, cleaner or with less motion smear when using film material in HD. Of course there is also the possibility of the extra brightness of the 8150 which can give the impression of a sharper picture! If you read the link above, you will see that it also tricked us when we compared the 8150 with a JVC with an old lamp (and then repeated the comparison with a new lamp)...
Anyways, since the 8150 was not clearly better on those areas than an HD-1, I am expecting the new RS20 to be an improvement over both those projectors..

Comparing the 2 units I ve in my home, the Planar is clearly sharper...not a big difference but evident.

The RS2 dont have convergence problems.

You begin very soon to see edge enhancements and other artifacts if you push to hard the sharpness control on JVC...but on the Planar you can push a little more without problems. Even with the sharp at 0, the Planar is the sharpest...but I dont consider the RS2 to be soft, and with dark scenes the RS2 is superior...a very good machine, but I am a DLP fan I guess.

For me the 2 biggest RS2 problems are light spill around the screen and the motion in fast moving scenes...clearly I see something wrong whem play with RS2 that I completly forget when I am seeing the Planar.

[QUOTE=DiV_GAMER;15048112]

For me the 2 biggest RS2 problems are light spill around the screen and the motion in fast moving scenes.../QUOTE]

Well we have read repeatedly, from various sources that JVC has fixed 50% of these complaints with the RS-20.

What I had read is the implementation of CMS to correct the colors. No one knows if the motion problem is corrected.

You just varied from your original point, which did not address "color." You asked about (a) light spill, and (b) motion.

I stated that JVC has solved 50% OF THOSE ISSUES.

DLP is going to be sharper than liquid crystal on silicon, by its nature.

That's just the way it is.

If Light splill problem is resolved and the motion blur is less visible on the new RS20, combinated with great on/off CR and increased lumens (almost at the same level of the Planar), I will buy it without hesitation.

If Light splill problem is resolved and the motion blur is less visible on the new RS20, combinated with great on/off CR and increased lumens (almost at the same level of the Planar), I will buy it without hesitation.

I looked at the planar 8150 and thought it was inferior to the Sim2 ht380 I bought. I thought the Sim2 put out a sharper image probably because of superior optics

I also do not think either projector is better tan the BenQ20000 which is much cheaper but has placement problems.

I really liked the RS20 and saw no motion blur. I think the new processing has really improved it The blacks were of course exquisite and I thought the image was sharper than the RS2

the real question for the RS20 is how much has the intrascene contrast improved

I think the RS20 has corrected most of the problems

For me the 2 biggest RS2 problems are light spill around the screen ...What kind of screen are you using? Do you have a light colored wall behind or something like that?

I ordered a screen with 4" borders just because LCoS projectors (including Sony) tend to have a border of light around the image. So, I don't see the spill there. I could see this being a problem for people using a non-16:9 screen though (like 2.35:1 where they put an anamorphic lens in and out of the light path) if they didn't have masking.

--Darin

Many people have commented that some RS2s seem less sharp than the RS1s that they have seen. I'm not sure what's going on there, it might be related to unit to unit variation in the lens. I think the RS20 will be better in this respect although I don't think the difference will be noticeable with anything other than a test pattern. The biggest difference not necessarily being a sharper looking image with that test pattern but a lack of color in 1-pixel wide patterns.

the HD750 i viewed when flicking to another HD1 was indeed sharper with any content displayed during that demonstration of the HD750. HD1 had good convergence as well. FWIW

the HD750 i viewed when flicking to another HD1 was indeed sharper with any content displayed during that demonstration of the HD750. HD1 had good convergence as well. FWIW

Interesting. So you were able to see the difference with video content as well? By video content I mean images and not credits, etc.

Interesting. So you were able to see the difference with video content as well? By video content I mean images and not credits, etc.


Yes it was instantly sharper as soon as we switched back and forth. I was not alone with this observation and this was playing Blurays like Ironman etc and dvds. it was enough to make a visual difference.

Of course, setup plays its part in this so be sure that this was an observation in a setting that i had not setup. may be different when i get my unit home but i will be sure to report.

Yes it was instantly sharper as soon as we switched back and forth. I was not alone with this observation and this was playing Blurays like Ironman etc and dvds. it was enough to make a visual difference.

Of course, setup plays its part in this so be sure that this was an observation in a setting that i had not setup. may be different when i get my unit home but i will be sure to report.

Assuming that the VP sharpness and NR settings were the same and the video being fed to each is the same then this is great news. From my own testing I've noticed that what is immediately apparent with a test pattern, OSD or a windows desktop is much more difficult to see with video content. If you're seeing a difference with video then I expect we'll see a significant improvement in image sharpness in the RS20 over the RS1/2 (and the RS1 was not a slouch in my opinion). An A/B or side by side would be the best way to see spot differences with video content though.

I Can't wait to really dig into the RS20 when it arrives :)

Many people have commented that some RS2s seem less sharp than the RS1s that they have seen.

That's weird Mark. As I had anticipated the RS2 in it's day just as feverishly as I'm anticipating the RS20, I thought I had absorbed all the comments there were to find on that machine. What I remember is people mostly saying the opposite: that they felt the RS2 was a bit sharper than the RS1...the discussions often went to why that might be and there were hunches given as to why...but the gist was typically "Well, I'm not sure what the explanation is but the RS2 just seemed a bit sharper than the RS1."

I think even Darinp (if I remember properly) had mentioned that the RS2s he'd seen struck him as sharper than the RS1s, for whatever reason.

Not saying people haven't commented as you say; I just must have missed those comments if that's the case.

That's weird Mark. As I had anticipated the RS2 in it's day just as feverishly as I'm anticipating the RS20, I thought I had absorbed all the comments there were to find on that machine. What I remember is people mostly saying the opposite: that they felt the RS2 was a bit sharper than the RS1...the discussions often went to why that might be and there were hunches given as to why...but the gist was typically "Well, I'm not sure what the explanation is but the RS2 just seemed a bit sharper than the RS1."

I think even Darinp (if I remember properly) had mentioned that the RS2s he'd seen struck him as sharper than the RS1s, for whatever reason.

Not saying people haven't commented as you say; I just must have missed those comments if that's the case.

Sorry my bad. Yes you're right. I woke up groggy today, feeling like I'm coming down with something. But to clarify I think most reports as far as sharpness have been RS20 > RS2 > RS1. So yes that does make the RS2 vs Planar comparison even more interesting.

That's weird Mark. As I had anticipated the RS2 in it's day just as feverishly as I'm anticipating the RS20, I thought I had absorbed all the comments there were to find on that machine. What I remember is people mostly saying the opposite: that they felt the RS2 was a bit sharper than the RS1...the discussions often went to why that might be and there were hunches given as to why...but the gist was typically "Well, I'm not sure what the explanation is but the RS2 just seemed a bit sharper than the RS1."

I think even Darinp (if I remember properly) had mentioned that the RS2s he'd seen struck him as sharper than the RS1s, for whatever reason.

Not saying people haven't commented as you say; I just must have missed those comments if that's the case.

Rich, only if you use a splitter to feed the same signal to two different projectors by using a split screen or instant A/B, you can really tell which projector is indeed sharper.
We (the hobbyists of www.avclub.gr (http://www.avclub.gr)) try to stick to that methodology every time we make a shoot-out, and according to what we have observed, the RS1 and RS2 have exactly the same image sharpness (in default -0 sharpness-settings).
Now, as I mentioned before, a very important factor to the perceived sharpness of a projector, is its brightness... For example, the RS-1, at first glance, looked more sharp than a RS-2 due to its higher brightness when that was not a fact (they displayed the exact same detail on screen).But it is even more interesting that the same RS-1 looked immediately way sharper when we replaced its old lamp (500 hours) with a brand new one!
So, if you really want to compare image sharpness between two projectors, you must use fresh lamps with the same hours on both of them!
Something else worth mentioning is the fact that a lot of projector manufacturers have some sort of image sharpening always enabled in some models, even when its sharpness setting is on 0! We noticed that with the Infocus 83 where we could really tell its sharpness function was enabled when we tried some test patterns..
Another important chapter on this sharpness comparison saga is the test material: We try to first compare the projectors' sharpness by displaying a windows desktop on 1:1 pixel mapping. This is the best way to observe which projector is indeed sharper. But we have noticed that even if a projector is indeed sharper in the XP windows desktop, that does not necessarily mean that this superiority will be evident when we put BlueRay or other HD material! And we are talking about the BEST demo material today in terms of image clarity (we have tried almost every demo title out there)! This probably means that the HD films we are currently buying are are not as detailed as we may believe for transfer-related or other reasons and they certainly do not squeeze the best performance out of our modern 1080p projectors..

Thanks takisot.

Yes I'm aware of those issues. Especially brightness. I am currently testing out some screen materials, including a full-size Da Lite High Power screen (3.0 gain) and it's just amazing how increased brightness makes for a sharper looking image. When I first put up the High Power screen used with my current Panasonic AE900 (720p) projector, it felt like I'd bought a new projector. The image appeared so much sharper and more detailed.

If Light splill problem is resolved and the motion blur is less visible on the new RS20, combinated with great on/off CR and increased lumens (almost at the same level of the Planar), I will buy it without hesitation.

They solved the light spill problem but the motion blur is still there. IMO JVC need to up the response time of the panels since its pretty poor on my HD100 and the HD750. Its the only thing I don't like about JVC's DILA.

On slow to medium pans everything just gets blurred and all fine detail, which makes a scene believable, is lost. This is why the current JVC will never truly be great IMO.

For reference I had a Themescene HD79 DC3 a couple of years ago and this was much more acceptable for motion blur. Very good in fact. And CRT completely rocks here.

Is this motion blur the real problem with LCOS? DILA and SXRD?

IIRC, the response time on the panels is 4ms and they are refreshed at 120hz. What you are seeing is not motion blur from a slow panel, it is the sample and hold effect your brain is causing.

Is this motion blur the real problem with LCOS? DILA and SXRD?

It depends on who you talk to. I've tried hard to spot it on a RS1 and I think I might be able to see it at times but I'm still unsure. It seems to be bothersome for some people though.

I started a poll to see, if and to what degree, people see motion blur and the responses ran the gamut:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1074083&highlight=motion+blur+poll

IIRC, the response time on the panels is 4ms and they are refreshed at 120hz. What you are seeing is not motion blur from a slow panel, it is the sample and hold effect your brain is causing.

No it isn't otherwise the Barco 808G that I regularly see wouldn't look so well in this regard. In a moving car I can look to the side I don't see trails and blur. The JVC panels aren't quick enough, simple as.

No it isn't otherwise the Barco 808G that I regularly see wouldn't look so well in this regard. In a moving car I can look to the side I don't see trails and blur. The JVC panels aren't quick enough, simple as.

Not true. There is no trail with DILA because a rise and fall time of 4ms is much less than a frame time. In fact with 1080p24 sources the panel is refreshed 4 times in a frame time. If I'm not mistaken your Barco 808G is CRT based which is a well known example of a on/off technology where sample and hold isn't an issue.

Not true. There is no trail with DILA because a rise and fall time of 4ms is much less than a frame time. In fact with 1080p24 sources the panel is refreshed 4 times in a frame time. If I'm not mistaken your Barco 808G is CRT based which is a well known example of a on/off technology where sample and hold isn't an issue.

I have used a JVC RS2 for almost a year now and have been very happy about it, mostly watch sci-fi and action movies. The image is very sharp and I don't see any trails?? The colors and images this projector delivers are amazing :D When I upgraded my screen to StewartFilmScreen FireHawk G3 it also made me feel like the projector got a major upgrade.

I am going to demo the RS-20 and might get a new one I use the zoom with my 2.35 screen and I get tired of having to switch between 16:9 and 2.35. I thought all blu ray where going to be 2:35 or 2:40??

No it isn't otherwise the Barco 808G that I regularly see wouldn't look so well in this regard. In a moving car I can look to the side I don't see trails and blur. The JVC panels aren't quick enough, simple as.

Please do a search for sample and hold effect. It will tell you exactly why you wouldn't see this on a CRT and why you would see this with a display technology that keeps the pixel on until it changes state. The JVC panels are quick enough unlike older LCD panels that didn't have a fast enough response time.

Not true. There is no trail with DILA because a rise and fall time of 4ms is much less than a frame time. In fact with 1080p24 sources the panel is refreshed 4 times in a frame time. If I'm not mistaken your Barco 808G is CRT based which is a well known example of a on/off technology where sample and hold isn't an issue.

Mark, I know what I see and I see blur that isn't as bad on other technologies such as CRT and DLP. Its distracting and annoying when at its worst. A good example from recent memory would be the CGI film Clone Wars. There's lots of pans in this film and the JVC degrades into blur with loss of detail at those points. Also if you have you PC as a source then try steadily moving a window around and watch the text turn into incomprehensible mess because the panels can't keep up. Then do the same on a CRT and watch as its perfectly readable under the same conditions.

The 4ms response, is that GtG or full on to full off? 4ms is meaningless without such definitions and it doesn't change the facts of what I see.

Please do a search for sample and hold effect. It will tell you exactly why you wouldn't see this on a CRT and why you would see this with a display technology that keeps the pixel on until it changes state. The JVC panels are quick enough unlike older LCD panels that didn't have a fast enough response time.

Why does a two year old H79 DC3 DLP look better in this regard than my HD100?

Mark, I know what I see and I see blur that isn't as bad on other technologies such as CRT and DLP. Its distracting and annoying when at its worst. A good example from recent memory would be the CGI film Clone Wars. There's lots of pans in this film and the JVC degrades into blur with loss of detail at those points. Also if you have you PC as a source then try steadily moving a window around and watch the text turn into incomprehensible mess because the panels can't keep up. Then do the same on a CRT and watch as its perfectly readable under the same conditions.


Motion blur I can understand and it's explainable by S&H. Trails is another thing and is symptomatic of slow LCD response time that was common with early LC materials and drive techniques.


The 4ms response, is that GtG or full on to full off? 4ms is meaningless without such definitions and it doesn't change the facts of what I see.

It's TrTf rather than GtG. For a panel to show visible trails I assume the response time needs to be much longer (probably > frame time).

Why does a two year old H79 DC3 DLP look better in this regard than my HD100?

Why didn't you do as I suggested and try a search? I don't know the answer to my question, but I do know the answer to yours.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1074013&highlight=sample

Your arguing semantics. I move a piece of paper back and forth but I can still read the writing and at speeds much faster than the point at which the JVC degenerates into blur. Whether its the panel speed or the technology itself that is inherently flawed, the human eye sees a loss of detail in pans where other technologies don't manifest that.

Can JVC improve this? If not then that's a dead end right there because on the HD100 blacks are no longer an issue for me, this blur is my number one pet hate and if it can't be improved then that's something I'll consider for my next project purchase.

Fact is motion resolution on the JVC is poor.

I'm think about selling a HD100 and replacing it with something else since its motion blur problems have become distracting for me. I've had the JVC HD1 and HD100 so the HD350 or HD750 will be equally poor here since they've done nothing to improve it. I'd strongly urge people who buy these machine to see them in action and decide if its problem for you before spending money.

As I understand it the ranking for the best to worst technology for motion blur is CRT, DLP, LCD/DILA/LCOS. CRT, whilst wonderful in the right environment is completely impractical for me and having owned a 8" Barco some years ago its painful to say that. DLP is something I get on with so I think that's what I'm going back to. I had a Themescene H79 before the JVC's and it was a great machine that I had little problem with except for contrast ratio.

What I'm asking for is DLP units which offer a similar level of picture quality to the HD100 but without the motion artefacts. Budget will be around whatever I can get for the JVC plus a little extra so I figure about £5k.

Ouch. Maybe I need to reconsider my anticipated move from DLP to D-ILA or LCD...

Did you guys read/see this article? Is this what you are referring to? Judder and motion blur.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

Did you guys read/see this article? Is this what you are referring to? Judder and motion blur.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

Interesting article, but it doesn't directly address one thing: It talks about 24p judder being bad (using casablanca as an example) and inherent in the film source. If this is the case, it sounds like it would be 'just as bad' in the theater. If that's the case, I'm set, because I don't detect a judder problem in the movie theater.

Now, if the film projectors somehow mitigate the problem (with dark frame insertion, or whatever) in a way that standard HT projectors don't, then I can see an issue. I don't see the article address the film/HT differences.

As I understand it the ranking for the best to worst technology for motion blur is CRT, DLP, LCD/DILA/LCOS.

If the issue that we're talking about is S&H (and I think it is), then the issue isn't specific to a particular technology (with the exception of CRT which by it's nature always has some dark frame time). It's how the technology is used and specifically how refresh has been implemented with that technology. As an example, some LCD flat panels look great from a S&H blur perspective while others are terrible.

Good article. I guess the question is what motion artifacts are being created over and above what's already present.

I noticed bluring on the RS20 at CEDIA but it was on 16x9 zoomed material, when the movie trailors were played at thier native scale, nothing, looked great.

Shinobiwan, did you notice blurring during football games or other sources?

If the issue that we're talking about is S&H (and I think it is), then the issue isn't specific to a particular technology (with the exception of CRT which by it's nature always has some dark frame time). It's how the technology is used and specifically how refresh has been implemented with that technology. As an example, some LCD flat panels look great from a S&H blur perspective while others are terrible.

I've yet to see one lcd not show sample and hold predominantly.
As far as Iknow, DLP and plasma technology will never have sample and hold, for some of which reasons you listed.

Mods: Why did you move my last copy of this question into a locked thread? I would like suggestions on suitable DLP machines to replace my HD100. If there's a problem with this sort of questions please at least email or post to let me know what it is instead of just moving it around without explanation.

Here's the predicament and question again, I'd appreciate any advice folks can offer:

I'm thinking about selling a HD100 and replacing it with something else since its motion blur problems have become distracting for me. I've had the JVC HD1 and HD100 so the HD350 or HD750 will be equally poor here since they've done nothing to improve it. I'd strongly urge people who buy these machine to see them in action and decide if its problem for you before spending money.

As I understand it the ranking for the best to worst technology for motion blur is CRT, DLP, LCD/DILA/LCOS. CRT, whilst wonderful in the right environment is completely impractical for me and having owned a 8" Barco some years ago its painful to say that. DLP is something I get on with so I think that's what I'm going back to. I had a Themescene H79 before the JVC's and it was a great machine that I had little problem with except for contrast ratio.

What I'm asking for is DLP units which offer a similar level of picture quality to the HD100 but without the motion artefacts. Budget will be around whatever I can get for the JVC plus a little extra so I figure about £5k.

I'm very restricted on placement and this means a small amount of vertical lens shift is likely necessary so a DLP with this feature is probably a must. The projector bracket does allow some adjustment range as is seen in this pic:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1050288/roombuild35.jpg

I'm very restricted on placement and this means a small amount of vertical lens shift is likely necessary so a DLP with this feature is probably a must. The projector bracket does allow some adjustment range as is seen in this pic:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1050288/roombuild35.jpg

OT here.. but where did you buy the projector mount?

The projector mount is from Vogels:

http://www.vogels.com/pages/consumer/products/details.aspx?classification=84&subclassification=31&id=572

I have not posted for a while, but I could not pass up this question :) If you search through my older posts I described this in detail in the past. I also chatted with some Avsers on the subject, still the motion blur does not seem to register for most people as a major issue. Personally it has been my #1 criteria in selecting a projector together with contrast. I enjoy watching 2.35 action movies and I find that in action scenes motion blur often ruins the movie for me. I have no idea how others can live with it, unless they just don't know what to look for or assume that it's part of the movie.

I have owned H77/H78, HD7100, Sharp 12K 1/2, Sony sxrd and JVC hd1, going back between them depending on what was important to me at the time. JVC is still the most cinematic of all IMHO, but I sold it due to poor color uniformity and most of all because of slow panel speed causing motion blur. I have about 10 scenes in different movies that I test pj's on and I can tell right away how the pj handles motion. Currently I own Benq w9000 same as w10000, which IMHO is the best pj I have owned in terms of motion smoothness. In fact I find Benq to be at the level where I no longer consider it an issue for me.

So to sum it up, if you have $$$ then I'd audition Marantz 1080p pj's, next in line would be Benq, assuming that w20000 is as good as my older series w9000, then Sharp 20K (rainbows are bad on that model) and finally Sony sxrd, with JVC last based on motion blur. Hope this helps!

Thanks mbonikow,

I see the blur really bad in the new Star Wars CGI - Clone Wars. They use a lot of pans throughout the film and its here where its most noticeable, infact I was becoming more and more distracted by them throughout. Its at this point, when you start noticing artefacts, that it takes away from the enjoyment.

I've tried to ignore it over the past 10 months or so and hoped it would be like the DLP rainbow issue that I initially had but disappeared as I adjusted. Sadly its only become worse as I've more attuned to the problem.

The Marantz is out of my price range at about £7-8k. I really only want to spend £5k maximum. The Benq W20k looks great value at £2.5K but the mid end DLP market seems almost dead compared to the LCD/DILA/SXRD alternatives. Having said that, the £3.5k Infocus IN83 caught my eye and I think this is another worth checking out.

Infocus IN83 dont have any lens shift.
Please consider Planar 8150, have vertical and horizontal lens shift, very good Dynamic Iris with good CR, and very realistic colors.

If this is out of your price range, investigate Planar 8130 (only vertical lens shift, no DI).

By the way, the Planar in Portugal is 6.500 eur (aprox £5.000).

Thats a pity about the IN83, I might be able to get by without it but would prefer to have a small amount of leeway.

Planar has no distributor in the UK and I'm having trouble finding a store near me that would be able to demo the 8150. It looks like a quality machine but for £4.5k I would need to demo. I'll keep looking.