This might be a better comparison than the recent threads that compared projectors that were not at similar price points. Comparing the panny 3000 and the rs 20 was not really apples to apples. I would like to hear others take on the rs 10 and the epsons since there is alot of buzz on these and they are going to be released in the next few weeks and they are in similar price ranges.

This might be a better comparison than the recent threads that compared projectors that were not at similar price points. Comparing the panny 3000 and the rs 20 was not really apples to apples. I would like to hear others take on the rs 10 and the epsons since there is alot of buzz on these and they are going to be released in the next few weeks and they are in similar price ranges.

I would love to see a real shoot out, I think these two would be a good match up. Cine4home got 5,000:1 native & 22,300:1 dynamic @D65 on there pre-production 6500UB. That SHOULD be comparable to what the RS10 can do Natively. Both models are using Reon processors this generation. I think the big question is the colors on the RS10? If the saturation & colors are comparable to the RS1 (sun burnt skin tones) the 6500UB may be the better choice for less money.

Like several other forum members I signed on for both powerbuy lists (RS10 and 6500UB). Now that it appears the price difference is going to be nearly $1K it really becomes very interesting to see if the JVC RS10 is really any better, or that much better than the Epson. Based on what I've seen to date some of the differences to look for is how the JVC performs with it better native contrast ratio, vs. the Epson's better dynamic CR (with DI is engaged) and probably better ANSI CR. The JVC may on average have better convergence and it includes a 1 pixel adjustment (but with either the JVC or Epson mis-convergance will vary sample to sample and we need to especially see how good the Epson quality control is). For the RS1 and RS2 JVC used only a moderate quaity lens and we need to see for the RS10 how it compares to that used by Epson on the 6500UB. Of course there are many other factors such as color uniformity, lumens when calibrated to D6500, etc. that are of intest for a comparison.

I would expect each to have their strengths and weaknesses and both can be expected to be very good performers.

Does anyone know when these projectors will be released? I thought we would start getting some reports and reviews in November. I agree with Ron that these projectors are going to be an interesting choice. This is where LCD and LCOS might have a faceoff that is worth looking at.

"Like several other forum members I signed on for both powerbuy lists (RS10 and 6500UB)."

How did you sign on for the 6500?

I emailed w/Jason and got on the JVC list, but didn't know you could do that yet for the 6500.

We are not taking orders for the Epson's until we have pricing (retail on the 6500UB is $2999...no idea on my pricing yet).

Rs 10 and epson 6500/7500 I thought were going to be out in mid November. Is that still going to happen?

Rs 10 and epson 6500/7500 I thought were going to be out in mid November. Is that still going to happen?

Mid to late December is what I thought.

After following the reviews and they blog threads I have decided that I am going to buy one of those two projectors. I watch most of my HD from direct tv so I dont need other than 16:9. I have a light controlled room so I dont need a light cannon. I just want a HD projector at an affordable price. Then two or three years lator it all starts over...

The "Light Power Edition" of the Epson that will be only available in Germany, Austria and Switzerland is the one I would try to get. With that external filter you still get the more accurate colors and the high range of the on/off contrast in dynamic mode with lumens to spare. That would give the JVC RS10 a run for its money.

Maybe we can buy the external filter. It's odd that such a meaningful "tweak" isn't available to the rest of the world.

The "Light Power Edition" of the Epson that will be only available in Germany, Austria and Switzerland is the one I would try to get. With that external filter you still get the more accurate colors and the high range of the on/off contrast in dynamic mode with lumens to spare. That would give the JVC RS10 a run for its money.

Maybe we can buy the external filter. It's odd that such a meaningful "tweak" isn't available to the rest of the world.

It's just a filter. Filters can be bought from dozens of camera shops online. I think many people are falling victim to marketing hype on the "Light Power Edition". It's no different than any other Cine4home tweak in the past. Find the mode with highest native contrast and screwed up grayscale then match the correct filter to correct the messed up grayscale. If you have a colorimeter you can easily get the correct filter, if not wait for the Cine4home review and see what the color profile in the highest contrast mode is.

Moe

There was a time on this forum (seven years ago or so) when there were many threads concerning various projectors and external filters. I would think a colour filter could be used effectively with the new Panasonic pj as well in its dynamic mode.

So the external filter is placed in front of the lens? What is the filter made of, is it another piece of glass? How does this work with an anamorphic lens, I have the Panamorph UH380.

There was a time on this forum (seven years ago or so) when there were many threads concerning various projectors and external filters. I would think a colour filter could be used effectively with the new Panasonic pj as well in its dynamic mode.


Ahhh the good ol days. Panasonic AE100 and an FL-D filter. A contrast ratio of somewhere around 10:1 and screendoor that was more like chicken wire. :D What ever happened to Li On, the Panasonic guru?

Will both the Epson 6500UB and the JVC RS-10 have discreet IR commands for on/off and other functions?
Panny does not, which may be one of the reasons I choose one of these models instead.

Why is a discrete on/off code so important that it would detract from you buying the panny?

For an enthusiast discrete codes aren't abig deal. For someone trying to integrate their system with a control system it adds reliability. If other people try to use the system this can be a big deal.

Bob

It's just a filter. Filters can be bought from dozens of camera shops online. I think many people are falling victim to marketing hype on the "Light Power Edition". It's no different than any other Cine4home tweak in the past. Find the mode with highest native contrast and screwed up grayscale then match the correct filter to correct the messed up grayscale. If you have a colorimeter you can easily get the correct filter, if not wait for the Cine4home review and see what the color profile in the highest contrast mode is.

Moe

Ah...thanks for the explanation.

For an enthusiast discrete codes aren't abig deal. For someone trying to integrate their system with a control system it adds reliability. If other people try to use the system this can be a big deal.

Bob
A control system such as?

URC - universal remote control
RTI - remote technologies inc.
Elan home systems
AMX
Crestron
Control 4
etc. - there's probably a lot more I'm not thinking of at the moment.

Discrete codes may be available by other means but not included on the remote. Many brands of equipment have discretes available.

Most enthusiasts do not mind a number of remotes to use their system. Or if they have a universal remote (which many do not have discrete codes and try to remember the status of equipment instead) they know how to correct a problem if for some reason the system gets out of sync. Like having to cycle through a bunch of inputs to get back to 'HDMI 2' instead of hitting the 'watch DVD' button which has a discrete code to bring it to the correct input and set the proper settings. On/ Off and discrete inputs are the minimum that should be available for discrete codes. Other settings are also beneficial to be on discretes.

Many non-enthusiasts which aren't on the forums discussing which model has better performance would be very happy with most systems today as long as it works reliably when they press a button. Enthusiasts are happy knowing they are maximizing their performance even if it might not be as easy to use or have some quirks. Neither is wrong. Personally I want both:D

Bob

Ahhh the good ol days. Panasonic AE100 and an FL-D filter. A contrast ratio of somewhere around 10:1 and screendoor that was more like chicken wire. :D What ever happened to Li On, the Panasonic guru?

Li On used to spend most of his time complaining about dithering on DLP pjs and then discovered the Panny AE100 and claimed it was the second coming. He stills appears on rare occasions to complain about something. :D

The filters are photographic filters that are relatively inexpensive and can be purchased at just about any photography store. I cut out a hole in a piece of cardboard and fitted the filter in and then taped the cardboard to hang in front of the projector's lens. The filters remove blue and green leaving the CR more or less alone and giving a more acceptable colour temperature. I still have several and will experiment if I decide to purchase one of these new projectors. And yes, you can slide an anamorphic lens in front.

Li On used to spend most of his time complaining about dithering on DLP pjs and then discovered the Panny AE100 and claimed it was the second coming. He stills appears on rare occasions to complain about something. :D

The filters are photographic filters that are relatively inexpensive and can be purchased at just about any photography store. I cut out a hole in a piece of cardboard and fitted the filter in and then taped the cardboard to hang in front of the projector's lens. The filters remove blue and green leaving the CR more or less alone and giving a more acceptable colour temperature. I still have several and will experiment if I decide to purchase one of these new projectors. And yes, you can slide an anamorphic lens in front.

I'm not familiar with photographic filters. Are they made of plastic or what?

Right... I am an enthusiast and wouldn't be too bothered by lack of discreet IR codes (for on/off, input source, etc.).

As you pointed out, the discreet codes help ensure the programmed functions in my URC remote work reliably regardless of the current state of the equipment. My "home theater" is the main viewing room for the family, and this is very valuable for the sanity of the other members of my family!

From my experience, in general higher-end better built equipment support discreet IR codes.

I am still debating on the Epson 6500 UB and the JVC RS-10. Tough without seeing real reviews or shoot-outs between them!

I do not know if the JVC is worth the additional $1000 or so, but I do think it will be more reliable (less likely convergance problems, dust blobs, etc.). I also prefer the better native contrast on the JVC without relying on dynamic iris.

I do like the smaller size of the Epson in addition to the smaller cost!


URC - universal remote control
RTI - remote technologies inc.
Elan home systems
AMX
Crestron
Control 4
etc. - there's probably a lot more I'm not thinking of at the moment.

Discrete codes may be available by other means but not included on the remote. Many brands of equipment have discretes available.

Most enthusiasts do not mind a number of remotes to use their system. Or if they have a universal remote (which many do not have discrete codes and try to remember the status of equipment instead) they know how to correct a problem if for some reason the system gets out of sync. Like having to cycle through a bunch of inputs to get back to 'HDMI 2' instead of hitting the 'watch DVD' button which has a discrete code to bring it to the correct input and set the proper settings. On/ Off and discrete inputs are the minimum that should be available for discrete codes. Other settings are also beneficial to be on discretes.

Many non-enthusiasts which aren't on the forums discussing which model has better performance would be very happy with most systems today as long as it works reliably when they press a button. Enthusiasts are happy knowing they are maximizing their performance even if it might not be as easy to use or have some quirks. Neither is wrong. Personally I want both:D

Bob

Not having full CMS control on the JVC is a huge deal breaker for me. I still don't understand why they don't include it in all their models.

Heck, the Epson 1080UB, and the Panny AE3000 both have it at much lower cost.

Dan

I would love to see a real shoot out, I think these two would be a good match up. Cine4home got 5,000:1 native & 22,300:1 dynamic @D65 on there pre-production 6500UB. That SHOULD be comparable to what the RS10 can do Natively. Both models are using Reon processors this generation. I think the big question is the colors on the RS10? If the saturation & colors are comparable to the RS1 (sun burnt skin tones) the 6500UB may be the better choice for less money.

Actually the JVC will be native about 17000:1ish...quite a bit better. Also, the 7500 and 6500 are the same thing, short of a couple features (performancewise they are the same).

Rs 10 and epson 6500/7500 I thought were going to be out in mid November. Is that still going to happen?

I am getting the first RS10's in country for my preorders...shortly after Thanksgiving. The Epson's are still "December"...whenever that may be.

For those interested in photographic filters, Tiffen is a major player

http://www.tiffen.com/products.html?tablename=filters&filter_format=Screw-In

You will see neutral density filters that some around here use to cut lumens. Also see UV/haze filters that photographers use primarily to protect the lens surface and secondarily to cut haze. I'm surprised no projector owners have talked about the protection aspect.

Well, all I can say is the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 UB throws an incredible picture on a 2:35:1 Stewart Firehawk screen at a local AV store. It ranks as among the best images I've seen. I thought maybe it was just the source, Transformers Blu Ray, which I'd seen several times being played on that set up. But a couple days ago I stopped in and they'd switched to Iron Man (Blu Ray) and the image was equally mind-blowing. I've rarely been so impressed.

In fact, I'm gonna be mighty disappointed if, after paying significantly more for the JVC RS20, I stop into that store and see better image quality coming from that Epson set up! (Maybe I should just avoid going there anymore. And, to answer the obvious question: a major reason I am not buying the Epson is it doesn't have the automated lens controls I need. And I'm not going for the Panny 3000 because I've seen it against the JVC RS2 and I thought the RS2 looked better).

All I can say is that of the UB 's I have seen the percentage that were part green and part pink were ... well too many. Try taking a look at 100 ire screen and compare the two. No CMS system on the planet could fix it. So as I like CMS systems if I can't fix a design problem I would rather trade the CMS for a projector that can simply show a white screen. Hopefully Epson will have this fixed because it was a pain.

Right... I am an enthusiast and wouldn't be too bothered by lack of discreet IR codes (for on/off, input source, etc.).

As you pointed out, the discreet codes help ensure the programmed functions in my URC remote work reliably regardless of the current state of the equipment. My "home theater" is the main viewing room for the family, and this is very valuable for the sanity of the other members of my family!

From my experience, in general higher-end better built equipment support discreet IR codes.

I am still debating on the Epson 6500 UB and the JVC RS-10. Tough without seeing real reviews or shoot-outs between them!

I do not know if the JVC is worth the additional $1000 or so, but I do think it will be more reliable (less likely convergance problems, dust blobs, etc.). I also prefer the better native contrast on the JVC without relying on dynamic iris.

I do like the smaller size of the Epson in addition to the smaller cost!


We will know soon what the answer is on this comparison. The Epson 6500/7500 is due this week and the rs-10 is coming in a week or so. If anyone has different information on this I would like to know.

We will know soon what the answer is on this comparison. The Epson 6500/7500 is due this week and the rs-10 is coming in a week or so. If anyone has different information on this I would like to know.

Not sure if the release date of the Epson 7500UB is differant then the 6500UB, but the 6500UB is set for December 15th.

The Epson does have 120hz while the RS10 does not. 120hz can be useful for things like sports, animation, and video content.

Does anyone know what the native contrast was for the 1080ub? I've read reports that the 6500 can hit 7000:1 native.

Here are some numbers from Cine4home on the 6500.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcine4home.de%2Fnews%2FTW5000%2FTW50 00Preview.htm%23Update&sl=de&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Did I understand that right, that in the "brightest" "inaccurate color" mode the contrast is also much higher? 78,000:1 vs 22,300:1 ?

Did I understand that right, that in the "brightest" "inaccurate color" mode the contrast is also much higher? 78,000:1 vs 22,300:1 ?

That's how I understand it! Also with a filter 50,000:1 with accurate grey scale may be possible, putting the Epson near the top of the digital performance heap at a bargain price. I wish some Panasonic 3000 owners would experiment with some filters.

As a guy who experimented with Hoya HMC FL-Day filters and others back in the old days. Keep in mind there is no free lunch. First, the filter causes a hit in brightness once the machine is re-calibrated back to D65 (no filter is an exact match to the lamp output). Second, even the high quality coated lens of the Hoya filters caused a decrease in ANSI contrast. On the other hand, if you have lumens to spare then the former isn't a problem and most people wouldn't be able to correlate any picture degradation to a decrease in ANSI contrast.

How big of a decrease is it?

here are some impression from member Ktak who saw both in a shootout:

He found the Epson colours much more natural and the JVC he said was oversaturated.

I know it sounds like the color quality on the Epson was my main consideration, but I was also very impressed by the other aspects of the Epson's picture. Being able to see all the projectors side-by-side being fed the same program material was very enlightening. The reason why I mention the colors so prominently is because the differences in performance between the Epson and the other PJs in other areas were more subtle to my eyes than the differences in color reproduction. Again, it comes down to individual priorities.

It's been a few days since the shootout, so everything I'm saying is based on my memory of the event. With that in mind, here are my impressions.

Black Level - The side-by-side comparison made it quite easy to see difference in black level between the different projectors in this regard. Through several different types of program material, I consistently considered the Epson to be second only to the JVC. When a program was paused on a full frame black background, the Sony HW-10 screen almost always "appeared" to be darker. But it was also during these moments that the uniformity issues with the Sony reared its ugly head. Once visible program material was shown, the perceived black level of the Epson was noticeably better in my opinion.

Contrast - One demo scene that was used was the "Jupiter and Beyond" chapter of 2001: A Space Odyssey where we see the monolith floating above Jupiter. This scene is challenging because there are localized bright objects (the sun, Jupiter, stars, moons) but at the same time the monolith is slowly turning. The view of the monolith ranges from visible highlights passing across its surface to pitch black as it almost disappears into the background , In this scene, the background stars looked brighter on the Epson while the blackness of space was comparable or slightly deeper compared to the Sony, Sanyo, Mitsubishi or Panasonic. One interesting thing I noticed is that in one part of the scene, the monolith completely disappeared on the Panasonic 3000 while it was still visible on all of the other PJs. Hopefully, this was just a setup issue.

Image depth - This is where I think the exaggerated colors of some projectors can actually help by giving the "illusion" of more image depth, especially when presented against a very bright or very dark background. That said, I never thought the Epson took a back seat to any of the projectors on display. The impression of realism provided by the accurate colors more than compensated for any lack of "pop" that it may have had when compared to the other projectors. Others may feel differently depending on their priorities. The JVC has an advantage in this regard because it is the brightest of the projectors by a considerable degree.

Sharpness - What can I say, the Mitsubishi is the one to beat in this regard. Because of my distance from the screen (due to the design of the demonstration, the closest any of us could get to the screen was around 12 feet) I couldn't compare the sharpness as well as I would have liked. But the Epson seemed at least as sharp as the Panasonic and Sony. The JVC "may" have been a bit sharper, but it's possible that the greater brightness just made certain details more visible at the distance we were standing. When I visited the Epson room later in the day and saw it on it's own, it certainly looked amazing. My friend who has the JVC HD1 said he thought the Epson was a bit sharper than his PJ, but without a side-by-side comparison his comment should be taken with a grain of salt.

I hope these observations help a little. I wish I could comment on motion blur, but I was more concerned about color, contrast, sharpness and black level performance.

How big of a decrease is it?

Since no one has tried it with the new Epson, no one knows for sure. But, as I recall the old Sony and NEC projectors that I worked with took about a 20% hit in brightness.

I meant the decrease in ANSI contrast. ?

How big was the decrease in ANSI contrast?

I am concerned about getting the epson (instead of the JVC) and being unhappy with the contrast and black levels.

I am happy with the blacks from my 4 year old sharp XV-Z9000U single chip DLP. It's rated at only 1100:1 full on/off contrast. Can I assume that even if the epson 6500 UB does not have the native contrast of the JVC, that it will easily beat out the (ancient) sharp?

In this RS-10 / 6500UB comparison, I also note that the epson is noisier than the JVC.

I am concerned about getting the epson (instead of the JVC) and being unhappy with the contrast and black levels.

I am happy with the blacks from my 4 year old sharp XV-Z9000U single chip DLP. It's rated at only 1100:1 full on/off contrast. Can I assume that even if the epson 6500 UB does not have the native contrast of the JVC, that it will easily beat out the (ancient) sharp?

In this RS-10 / 6500UB comparison, I also note that the epson is noisier than the JVC.When Art from projectorreviews.com compared the 1080Ub against the RS1, he said both were very close with RS1 having the advantage. I think he also said that on many scenes both looked the same, but on some scenes where native contrast was used more, the RS1 was better. I suspect this time around it will be the same with the new pjs, which is leagues above many projectors out there, so you shouldn't worry.

I think that one review site cine4? got 8000 native contrast out of the epson 6500. my Optoma HD70 is rated at 3000 native and just from looking at the pictures from the TW4000(Japanese 6500) post, the contrast and blacks levels are much better, than mine. I'm sure you will be impressed, and you'll save a few bucks in the process.

"Can I assume that even if the epson 6500 UB does not have the native contrast of the JVC, that it will easily beat out the (ancient) sharp?"

Absolutely.

LCD's are competitive w/today's DLP's, let alone that dinosaur.

This might be a better comparison than the recent threads that compared projectors that were not at similar price points. Comparing the panny 3000 and the rs 20 was not really apples to apples. I would like to hear others take on the rs 10 and the epsons since there is alot of buzz on these and they are going to be released in the next few weeks and they are in similar price ranges.

In Long Beach a comparison with the epson tw4000 (similar to the epson 6500 I think) and a sony vpl-hw10 is being set up this coming week. Both were just brought here from Tokyo. This should be interesting. I am trying to get invited.:cool:

Where in Long Beach? If you can't make it how can we find out the results of this comparison?

How big was the decrease in ANSI contrast?

Oh, if I remember correctly it was about a 10% decrease. ANSI is difficult and time consuming to measure reliably so the numbers varied, but the few who took the time to measure it reported a decrease.

Where in Long Beach? If you can't make it how can we find out the results of this comparison?
It was at a camera or computer store.
I did not get invited. The message I got was not every one agreed but consensus thought the sony was better but not by very much. I am sure someone will report the result on this or a new thread.

Oh, if I remember correctly it was about a 10% decrease. ANSI is difficult and time consuming to measure reliably so the numbers varied, but the few who took the time to measure it reported a decrease.

Thats not too bad I guess.

Thats not too bad I guess.

I might add that the 10% decrease was with the $50 Hoya 72mm FL-Day HMC Multi-Coated Glass Filter . Without the quality glass and optical coatings that are used on the Hoya HMC line the decrease would be much greater.

Here are some numbers from Cine4home on the 6500.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcine4home.de%2Fnews%2FTW5000%2FTW50 00Preview.htm%23Update&sl=de&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Isn't the TW4000 the 6500UB? That review is for the TW5000? Same thing? Not sure.

Dan

Isn't the TW4000 the 6500UB? That review is for the TW5000? Same thing? Not sure.

Dan

TW4000 in Asia, TW5000 in Europe, both the US 6500UB equivalent. :)

TW4000 in Asia, TW5000 in Europe, both the US 6500UB equivalent. :)

Thanks for the clarification. I have the 1080UB, and looking at the new performance of the 6500UB, it is very impressive. Two things impress me the most, the native contrast is much higher, as well as brightness. Color accuracy looks to be about the same. Black level slightly better. I like the new air filter and cooling path. Also, the new longer rated lamp is very nice.

Judging by how fantastic my 1080UB looks, the 6500UB is going to be stellar.

Dan

I am waiting for a Panasonic AE3000, and my vendor is suggesting a switch to the Epson 6500 UB. Has anyone actually seen one yet?

The frame interpolation feature on the AE3000 sounds interesting, and I wonder how it compares to the equivalent feature on the Epson.

It was at a camera or computer store.
I did not get invited. The message I got was not every one agreed but consensus thought the sony was better but not by very much. I am sure someone will report the result on this or a new thread.

Sorry - but I have seen nothing anywhere on this. For those of us interested in buying a 6500, this would be valuable info. If there is any way you can tease out more info it would be appreciated.

TW4000 in Asia, TW5000 in Europe, both the US 6500UB equivalent. :)

I don't think so. It appears the TW5000 in Europe (but the TW5800 in the UK) is most equivalent to the North American 7500 and the European TW3800 is equivalent to the 6100. It's not clear (at least to me) that Epson Europe has announced an equivalent to the 6500. However, the 6500 and 7500 are essentially the same projector, but the 7500 includes additional video processing for an anamorphic stretch mode (to support use of an external lens when using a 1:2.35 screen) and for additional ISF color management adjustments (and of course a black case instead of the white case and the 7500 comes with a spare bulb and a ceiling mount).

I am waiting for a Panasonic AE3000, and my vendor is suggesting a switch to the Epson 6500 UB. Has anyone actually seen one yet?

The frame interpolation feature on the AE3000 sounds interesting, and I wonder how it compares to the equivalent feature on the Epson.

Initial informal reports from Japan (production TW4000) and Germany (pre-production TW5000) indicate the Epson implementation of frame interpolation is rather poor and it appears to not in the same class as that on the Panasonic AE3000.

Any more input on this comparison?

Hey guys,
Did this thread die out? Has anyone else compared the 6500/7500 to the RS-10? What is the brightness and sharpness difference? Contrast? (Intra-scene and on/off)

Thanks,

Hey guys,
Did this thread die out? Has anyone else compared the 6500/7500 to the RS-10? What is the brightness and sharpness difference? Contrast? (Intra-scene and on/off)

Thanks,

take a look at Zip3kx07's post --> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1092012&page=19