I have been very happy with a Pioneer Hard Disk DVD Recorder for the last couple of years.

Unfortunately, after searching the Web to view the current crop of models available, I find that Philips is the only company that seems to have one on the market. Why has this dearth of HD DVD recorders developed?

If you do not have a computer burner hooked up to your TV system, how do you store programs for future watching or do any edits so that your DVDs are not filled with commercials and also have the flexibility to decide whether or not you wish to make a permanent record of a program via DVD-R or erase a program after watching it via DVD-RW?

This is discussed in several threads on this forum. In part, it is because any new models must have an ATSC tuner. Theories range from 'there isn't enough market in the US,' to conspiracy theories about pressure from the content providers to try and stop recording in the US. Also, TIVO had a successful law suit, which some believe could be pursued against HDD DVDR manufacturers.

I have a Pio 640, which I am very happy with. Your best shot at a similar machine is the Pio 460, 560, and 660, now sold in Canada. There are threads about those here too.

I have been very happy with a Pioneer Hard Disk DVD Recorder for the last couple of years.

Unfortunately, after searching the Web to view the current crop of models available, I find that Philips is the only company that seems to have one on the market. Why has this dearth of HD DVD recorders developed?

If you do not have a computer burner hooked up to your TV system, how do you store programs for future watching or do any edits so that your DVDs are not filled with commercials and also have the flexibility to decide whether or not you wish to make a permanent record of a program via DVD-R or erase a program after watching it via DVD-RW?

Magnavox also makes one. Both Philips and Magnavox recorders OEM'd by Funai.

And Philips has already announced that this is the last model year for their hard disk DVD recorder.

My opinion is lack of market in US. We seem to be heavily invested in DVRs from Cable and Satellite companies. (and Tivo of course).

Rick

As with everything, it all comes down to money, and there is obviously not enough of it to be made to get a lot of options offered in this space.

And Philips has already announced that this is the last model year for their hard disk DVD recorder.

I thought there would be a 2009 model from Philips, and then no more? Anyone know for sure??

I thought there would be a 2009 model from Philips, and then no more? Anyone know for sure??
Philips statement said there would be no more DVDRs "AFTER 2009" so it depends on whether the "after" means there will be a 2009 model, or maybe it's just a European use of the word that means something else?

Could also be that the Mag 2160 was the one they had on the drawing board when they said no more "development after Sep 2008," but they had spec'd or ordered parts, etc. and then they decided to farm the whole thing off to Funai, who used the Magnavox name?

With Philips not planning to be at CES 2009 as "Philips" but only having some reps in the pretty-small FUNAI booth, it'll be interesting for sure?

Even Funai is prob. not hot-to-trot with new DVDRs since their sales in the U.S. in FY2007-2008 dropped ~48%, and they made more than 50% of all recorders sold in North America.

I and several other "regulars" have already posted extensively on this topic in other threads- you might want to search AVS for "Pioneer DVD Recorder" or "No DVD/HDD Recorders" and see what turns up:). The short simple answer is that USA consumers have turned away from "independent" recorders in favor of the integrated cable/satellite recorders built into their decoder boxes. You can rent these for $5-10 a month, much cheaper than buying any recorder, and they are fully integrated with your particular cable/satellite program guide. While its true they can't make a permanent DVD copy, most Americans apparently don't care and are willing to sacrifice burning ability for "idiot-proof" timeshifting. The other major factors killing DVD/HDD recorders are complexity of use compared to the old VCR or cable/sat recorder, inability of most consumers to understand or appreciate the benefits of the DVD/HDD combo, inability of mfrs to sell them at a loss in the USA anymore (in Europe they sell for $500-600, US consumers faint at a pricetag higher than $200 for anything), and finally the continued nuisance lawsuit threats from TiVO.

Pioneer is the only company still selling new DVD/HDD recorder models in North America (aside from the Funai-sourced Phillips/Magnavox). Even Pioneer pulled out of the USA in 2006 and is now only for sale in Canada, although you can get them mail-ordered to USA thru "back door" Canadian vendors. Pioneer has not been doing much business in DVD/HDD recorders since 2005, once they developed the DVR-640H of 2006 that was pretty much "it" for any "new" models. The x50 models of 2007 and this years x60 models are barely any different from the x40 series. There is some concern that there may not be a Pioneer 2009 x70 series coming, so if you need a backup machine buy it now. If Pioneer does end up releasing a 2009 model range, they will almost certainly be near-identical to this years. None of the mfrs is investing serious development money in DVD recorders anymore, so don't expect any amazing new models.

If you do not have a computer burner hooked up to your TV system, how do you store programs for future watching or do any edits so that your DVDs are not filled with commercials and also have the flexibility to decide whether or not you wish to make a permanent record of a program via DVD-R or erase a program after watching it via DVD-RW?

You can transfer recordings from Tivos to a computer. Unfortunately, I have found no way to _edit_ them on a Mac (without transcoding), though apparently there are many ways to edit them on PCs. (If anyone has info otherwise, even commercial software, please provide info.)

You can also do what I also do -- transfer from my Tivos to my hard drive/DVD recorder. While it's more steps, it's actually in some ways more convenient, since I end up with the info page about the recording at the beginning (though it's on screen a bit too long, IMHO).

and finally the continued nuisance lawsuit threats from TiVO.

Cite? They don't have the right to protect their inventions?

Most people (in the USA) record programs for timeshifting, not for archiving. Heck, I do a fair amount of archiving, but most of the recording I do is for timeshifting. Even for archiving, one of the main advantages of a DVD/HDD recorder is its ability to edit out commercials. But that takes effort to learn how to use the recorder's editing features. It's mainly geeks like us who are willing to invest the effort to do that. There apparently aren't enough of us to sustain a consumer-grade recorder that does this, at least not from the main-line "quality" manufacturers.

And for the real geeks, computers with DVD burners provide another alternative for editing and archiving. If my Panasonic DVD/HDD recorders both died, I'd probably simply switch to EyeTV on my MacBook and Mac Pro.

You can transfer recordings from Tivos to a computer. Unfortunately, I have found no way to _edit_ them on a Mac (without transcoding),

I don't know about Tivos, but with EyeTV, I can export to MPEG transport stream format (no transcoding, even for HD material), and edit these with the freeware MPEG Streamclip software. I can also edit within EyeTV's own software, but I don't have as precise control over edit points.

Cite? They don't have the right to protect their inventions?

Not when it stifles innovation and non-competitive products based on specious patent claims. I'm sure you have an assortment of legal arguments ready at hand to beat me over the head with- I've read them, they've been posted here before, please don't bother. Just because TiVO can thug its way thru the US court system and get away with a ridiculously vague patent claim doesn't mean it isn't a suspect claim. The TiVO patents hinge on the notion they can claim "total ownership" of the idea of recording television broadcasts to a hard drive for later viewing: totally bogus. The only TiVO-specific proprietary technology is their program guide operating system: they certainly have a beef with TVGOS on that one, I can see where they might sue over that feature, but not generic DVD/HDD recorders. Everyone who's tried that kind of generic case ends up falling on their ass: VCR history is littered with such claims.

The threat of these nuisance suits has been noted in several press releases from various DVD/HDD mfrs as one of many excuses why they vacated the USA market in 2006. If the recorders sold extremely well and were profitable, Japan would take on TiVO in a heartbeat and wear them down in court, because the TiVO case is flimsy. But these machines are not profitable in the USA, they have to be sold at a loss because we're a bunch of disinterested cheapskates: winning the case against TiVO in US courts would involve legal expenses resulting in further losses to an already moribund product. Japan didn't back out because TiVO is right, they backed out because they couldn't be bothered. The dismal sales figure of the sole remaining US dvd/hdd recorders (Phillips-Magnavox) is their vindication.

Funai's latest Apr-Sep financials show 4.5% increase in DVD player and recorder sales compared to same period last year... after a 48% drop in prior same period.

Their comments on their three DVD-related business areas:

DVD player/recorder
Player related equip.tracking on the shrinkage of market.
Recorder related equip. plateauing out.
Bluray Disc Player
Commercially launching in a full-scale manner from April.
Digital STB
Better than expected sales.

Well said, Citibear. The only more specious claim I have heard is that biotech companies have taken DNA from individual people and patented it, claiming it as their own, with no recompense. Unfortunately our asinine Supreme Court approved that one.


Not when it stifles innovation and non-competitive products based on specious patent claims. I'm sure you have an assortment of legal arguments ready at hand to beat me over the head with- I've read them, they've been posted here before, please don't bother. Just because TiVO can thug its way thru the US court system and get away with a ridiculously vague patent claim doesn't mean it isn't a suspect claim. The TiVO patents hinge on the notion they can claim "total ownership" of the idea of recording television broadcasts to a hard drive for later viewing: totally bogus. The only TiVO-specific proprietary technology is their program guide operating system: they certainly have a beef with TVGOS on that one, I can see where they might sue over that feature, but not generic DVD/HDD recorders. Everyone who's tried that kind of generic case ends up falling on their ass: VCR history is littered with such claims.

The threat of these nuisance suits has been noted in several press releases from various DVD/HDD mfrs as one of many excuses why they vacated the USA market in 2006. If the recorders sold extremely well and were profitable, Japan would take on TiVO in a heartbeat and wear them down in court, because the TiVO case is flimsy. But these machines are not profitable in the USA, they have to be sold at a loss because we're a bunch of disinterested cheapskates: winning the case against TiVO in US courts would involve legal expenses resulting in further losses to an already moribund product. Japan didn't back out because TiVO is right, they backed out because they couldn't be bothered. The dismal sales figure of the sole remaining US dvd/hdd recorders (Phillips-Magnavox) is their vindication.

Funai's latest Apr-Sep financials show 4.5% increase in DVD player and recorder sales compared to same period last year... after a 48% drop in prior same period.


Hmm... maybe things bottomed out and with folks cutting back on cable subs the recorder market might make a come back.:confused: