In transferring VHS tapes to DVDR, it seems almost all the older tapes that I recorded at the EP speed have some playback problems. These 12 year old plus tapes have tracking problems, video dropouts and one other major worrisome feature. If I try to record a segment over again, I notice that there is a chance the tape shows stretch defects from being rewound. Some VHS tapes kept after transferring the contents to DVDR two or more years ago were now unrecordable. I have been using the same VHS player, a JVC 5900 VCR with digital frame memory for VHS stabilization and, on the downside, a crummy tracking control. When I played some of these tapes back on another VCR, a Samsung, the results were even worse, the Samsung would not even play some of the tapes, showing lots of video dropouts and video speedup. Using what turned out to be crummy TDK tapes was one of the reasons for the tape playback problems, but not the only one.

Since some of the posters at this forum have indicated they have projects transferring VHS tapes to DVDR, I was wondering if they ran into the same VHS playback problems. With exceptions, my experience is that VHS tapes recorded at the EP speed that are over 12 years old are at the end of the line in many cases. I did not store these tapes in a climate controlled room, they were stored on a bookcase vertically with the tape rewound. There seem to be more comments here about posters with very old tapes that are still in good shape. My experience is otherwise, it seems to me that while some VHS tapes show good longevity, most of the tapes I recorded from 1986to 1996 at EP speed are near death's door. If that is the case in general, and not just for my tapes, in a few years, most VHS tapes will be landfill material.

By the way, many of the tapes I have had difficulty with are of news magazine shows I recorded in the 1990s. The 90s were the peak of the TV news magazine show, there were three NBC Dateline shows being shown most weeks, three or for segments to a show, ABC had PrimeTime Live, 20/20, Day1One (with Diane and Forest Sawyer) and the Nightline documentaries. CBS had, in addition to 60 Minutes, Eye to Eye with Connie Chung and Street Stories with Ed Bradley, among other news magazine shows. All of these shows followed the 60 Minutes format, having three or four segments on different stories, some involving a lot of travel, an expense the networks limit greatly now. For a short while, as the networks competed for viewers with news shows that were less expensive than scripted hour long TV shows, you had a lot of high quality work done to gather and present the feature stories shown. No "To Catch A Predator" shows then. Now, you pretty much have nothing, even 60 Minutes, with its reduced production staff to save money, is dull. No more globetrotting for anyne except the crews of the TV reality shows. And definitely, no having four separate film crews (sound guy, camera guy and producer, along with drivers and translators sometimes at the location shoot) working to bring you episodes for just one news show broadcast. Everything is padded, mostly with cheap studio interviews of talking heads. The 90s, those were the days for the network news divisions and viewers at home intersted in watching more than has-been celebrities and wannbe celebrities (like Mark Cuban) on Dancing with the Stars.

Since your EP tapes all display tracking issues, they were probably all recorded on the same VCR or similar models of the same brand. The conventional wisdom is to use the same VCR to play back into a DVD recorder, but this doesn't always work. If the tapes have "soured" somehow, the original VCR won't help much. You need to try alternative VCRs known for a wide tracking range. I'd recommend a mid-1990s Panasonic/Quasar, mid-1990s Sharp, or the recently discontinued Mitsubishi 448. Any of these can be found used for $20-30: try as many as you can afford, and don't rule out borrowing VCRs from family and friends. The goal is to get your recordings transferred to DVD so you can avoid the interchange problems inherent in tape technology.

While its generally true to say the biggest problems occur with older EP-speed VHS tapes, it shouldn't be happening uniformly with *every* such tape in your collection: that is very unusual. Normally it pops up as random issues with some tapes in a collection, not all of them, and twelve years old is relatively recent: most EP problems are with tapes from the jurassic period of the early 1980s when there was a far larger variety of VCRs. By the mid-1990s, VCRs had become a commodity product made by a handful of factories to a fairly uniform standard, using much gentler transport mechanics and more accurate electronic tracking systems. EP tapes made in that time period generally fare better than those made in the '80s. BUT... (there's always a but)...

JVC was one of the few exceptions, they always went their own way in their VCR designs, often to the later regret of their owners. JVC always despised the concept of extended recording times and it shows in the atrociously untrackable EP tapes many of us are stuck coping with now from those JVC decks. JVCs also have the uncanny ability to turn even an SP tape into a trainwreck just by playing it once: the machine appears to be working normally, the tape plays normally, after you watch it you file it away and don't check it for awhile. The next time you play it months or years later, THEN you notice all kinds of distortions that you KNOW were not in the original recording. If you put that tape in another brand VCR and record over it, you often discover it works perfectly: bizarre. It is possible your JVC 5900 has drifted out of alignment in the typical JVC fashion and is no longer a good source deck for your VCR transfers. The tapes might be irretrievably damaged, in which case you'll have to settle for preserving them in their current state as "better than nothing".

I cannot tell you how many times this has happened to me with JVC or JVC-oem recorders over the years, and I've heard and seen numerous such reports from other users. Despite their reputation as the "inventors of VHS", JVC has always made the most dismally damaging decks on the market. They are adored now primarily because they are about the only ones you can easily find with built-in TBC and DNR circuits: if you find such a high-end JVC in good working order, it can be a vital tool for converting some types of tapes to DVD. But they are an ominous crapshoot: for every JVC vcr user who's never had a problem, three can come forward with horror stories. Unless you MUST use the exclusive JVC TBC/DNR features, opt for a different VCR brand to play most of your tapes.

In transferring VHS tapes to DVDR, it seems almost all the older tapes that I recorded at the EP speed have some playback problems.

These 12 year old plus tapes have tracking problems, video dropouts and one other major worrisome feature. If I try to record a segment over again, I notice that there is a chance the tape shows stretch defects from being rewound. Some VHS tapes kept after transferring the contents to DVDR two or more years ago were now unrecordable.

I have been using the same VHS player, a JVC 5900 VCR with digital frame memory for VHS stabilization and, on the downside, a crummy tracking control. When I played some of these tapes back on another VCR, a Samsung, the results were even worse, the Samsung would not even play some of the tapes, showing lots of video dropouts and video speedup.

Using what turned out to be crummy TDK tapes was one of the reasons for the tape playback problems, but not the only one.

Since some of the posters at this forum have indicated they have projects transferring VHS tapes to DVDR, I was wondering if they ran into the same VHS playback problems.

With exceptions, my experience is that VHS tapes recorded at the EP speed that are over 12 years old are at the end of the line in many cases.

Well, I have seen all kinds of problems with transferring my VHS collection to DVD,and like you, by far the biggest issue in making a good transfer is the tape playback. Unlike you, I cannot say that almost all of my oldest tapes (going back to the late 70s I might add--my very first VCR was a VHS 2hr/4hr machine that came out before the 6hr speed was introduced!) are giving me problems, but a small subset of tapes. many of my tapes contain segments recorded by different machines, and THAT presents some real playback issues. The built-in VHS deck of my EH75 lock the tracking after it starts, so these segments go from okay, to unwatchable noise sometimes.

I am not having issued with the oldest tapes, but with the LONGEST tapes. My T120s seem to track and reproduce fairly well (nearly everything I made was LP/EP) but the T160s, and expecially the T180s are giving me FITS. I even found that JVC made a tape length of T210, nad I used these a lot toward the end. These tapes are so thin that I see the tracking go from noise at the top of the screen, to the bottom, then back to the top and so on. The T120s don't have this issue.

If you are having stretching issues, then I would get a different VCR immediately. That sounds like a mis-adjusted transport over-tensioning the tape. If you have a second VCR that plays the tapes badly, get a third, a fourth, etc. I currently have in my transfer "workstation" VCRs from Sony, JVC, Mitsubishi, and Panasonic. I have gotten an acceptable transfer from every tape so far, but some have had to have individual segments recorded separately from differernt VCRs. A real pain, but if you get a good transfer, you don't need to do it again.

I have used, over the years, many diffferent tapes and I can say that the lower quality tapes really DO have worse picture quality. I guess using the higher grade tapes paid off. I really wish I had listened to the people THEN who advised me against the 160s, 180s, and 210s.

I definitely think it's your VCRs at issue here.

In transferring VHS tapes to DVDR, it seems almost all the older tapes that I recorded at the EP speed have some playback problems . . . Since some of the posters at this forum have indicated they have projects transferring VHS tapes to DVDR, I was wondering if they ran into the same VHS playback problems . . . There seem to be more comments here about posters with very old tapes that are still in good shape. My experience is otherwise . . .

I experienced many of the same concerns during my extensive project dubbing to DVD selective portions (around 5,200 titles) of my near twenty years of home-recorded time-shifted VHS recordings.

This post describes the dubbing project, giving special attention to DVD recorder features, VCRs and tracking issues:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13955310#post13955310

This post deals more specifically with various brands of videotape:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14972104#post14972104

Ya know.....my first hi-fi VCR was a JVC, purchased in 1993. I got 5 years of heavy daily use from it, but the last 2 years or so tracking got pretty dicky before the thing tanked spectacularly--I had to dismantle it to retrieve the last tape I played in it. At the time I figured 5 years was reasonable service life because I'd run it hard, but the Mitsu that replaced it in 1998 was used just as heavily and is still going strong--and tracks just fine, thank you. Playback of the "late" tapes made on the JVC requires some manual fiddling of the tracking, and sometimes there's just nothing you can do. I have two new, barely used JVCs I picked up in 2003 and 2006 as insurance against the impending demise of the VCR--before I found out you could get Mitsus in fine condition on eBay for the price of lunch.

Bottom line is that playback of old tapes can be a tricky business; sometimes they play just fine. Sometimes you can manipulate the manual tracking, sometimes a playing on another machine works, and sometimes you just have to give up.

Thanks for the information. I liked JVC because it had an S-video connection and a cheap field TBC. As mentioned, JVCs are unreliable at best. But I have transferred most of my old tapes. Another thing I noticed about my JVC was that, if it had self cleaning video heads, it did not do a very good job of it. I learned too late that if there was a way for a JVC VCR to jam you, it would. But a Toshiba VCR I had maybe 15 years ago did not last very long before it started eating tapes and even a Panasonic VCR I had (with a rugged tape loading mechanism, unlike JVC's flimsy construction) did not do such a great job as far as tape recording quality. That S-video input made a difference. But whatever brand the VCR, VCRs are almost gone now in the consumer marketplace.

Hi, all:

Isn't there software that allows you to fix tracking issues (i.e. reduce video and audio noise, etc.)?

I have some video where the audio that was superimposed to the track requires vcr tracking adjustment during playback, but can't that be cleaned up and fixed in the editing software.

Curious if it can fix more prevalent tracking issues, as well. What software is recommended to give the most flexibility not only in repairing old video tape, but offers the most advanced features for video editing and video production?

Looking forward to any feedback you can provide.

Thank you.
Ray
Boston, MA

Hi, all:

Isn't there software that allows you to fix tracking issues (i.e. reduce video and audio noise, etc.)?

I have some video where the audio that was superimposed to the track requires vcr tracking adjustment during playback, but can't that be cleaned up and fixed in the editing software.

Curious if it can fix more prevalent tracking issues, as well. What software is recommended to give the most flexibility not only in repairing old video tape, but offers the most advanced features for video editing and video production?

Computer software to fix videotaped tracking errors preserved to other media?

This sounds like the government's approach to problem solving. Perhaps the government may throw millions of dollars into various grants to study this matter and many more millions to support the production of such computer software as part of the "common welfare."

It would be easier to un-ring a bell.

Tracking problems must be addressed in the videotape playback stage before dubbing/copying to other media.

Garbage in, garbage out. It's as simple as that.

Thank you.

So, what is considered "video noise" and "audio noise" that software companies tout they can clean up?

Thanks.

Ray
Boston, MA

I agree with Digado, the only way you could possibly make poor video look better would be to dumb down the sharpness or somehow try and filter out the noise(which would also filter out the resolution).
A poor tape really needs to be addressed at the playback VCR level, after that you'll just be smoothing out the noise. I know it looks cool how they can read a license plate or a persons tattoo from a hundred yards on a grainy B&W security tape on programs like CSI, but in real life it just doesn't seem to work that way.
If your tape requires different tracking setting for video and then audio, a possible solution would be to record the video and audio separately with their preferred tracking and then somehow join them after the fact. I have done this in the past but IMO it's a major PIA and your tape would need to be worth the effort, only something you could decide.

Hi, all:

Isn't there software that allows you to fix tracking issues (i.e. reduce video and audio noise, etc.)?
As others have said, the answer is no. Once noise is introduced into the video stream, getting it out is impossible without outrageous effort combining information from many frames to try to recreate bad or missing data. It's the equivalent of taking hamburger and trying to reconstruct a cow from it. The noise removes information, and once it's gone, it's gone. The way to deal with this situation is to get a VCR that accurately tracks the tape. You really can't invent information that has been lost. It isn't just hidden in the noise, it's really lost.

It's the equivalent of taking hamburger and trying to reconstruct a cow from it.I love this one, LOL.

True or false: Can't you find some (well most I would think) of these old classic movies on DVD for less money than the cost of a blank VHS tape?

It's the equivalent of taking hamburger and trying to reconstruct a cow from it.

I love this one, LOL.
Okay, but I have to admit, upon reflection, it is a very poor simile. I was attempting to make a point, but hamburger analogy does not correctly make it.

Many people think that noise in a picture, from bad tracking or any other reason, is like looking out a dirty window. All the picture information is there, it's merely masked or occluded. This is fundamentally incorrect. I was at a loss for a good analogy, and still am. It is much more like a jigsaw puzzle where you don't have the picture from the box cover, and some of the pieces are missing. After assembling the pieces, what you see when you look at it is part of the picture, and the tabletop underneith where the missing pieces are (noise). The information is (pieces are) missing, and no software can create the missing data out of nothing.

The hamburger idea was that the noise scrambles the picture so thoroughly that it cannot be reconstructed. that is in error, because it implies that all the data is there, just impossible to reconstruct. Bad tracking on a VCR means the data is just not there to be reconstructed.

Many people think that noise in a picture, from bad tracking or any other reason, is like looking out a dirty window. All the picture information is there, it's merely masked or occluded. This is fundamentally incorrect. I was at a loss for a good analogy, and still am. It is much more like a jigsaw puzzle where you don't have the picture from the box cover, and some of the pieces are missing. After assembling the pieces, what you see when you look at it is part of the picture, and the tabletop underneith where the missing pieces are (noise). The information is (pieces are) missing, and no software can create the missing data out of nothing.I like the mental visual your jigsaw puzzle analogy provides. Now let's take it to the extreme where every other piece of the puzzle is missing and has to be filled in. That's a good example of why up-conversion is not a trivial process and has to be of high quality to be worth anything.

Bad tracking on a VCR means the data is just not there to be reconstructed.

Further to rpe94's question:
Although the full data still exists on the tape master, the VCR being used for playback may no longer be able to read the video tracks properly due to various possible reasons (tape stretching in storage, misaligned original recording VCR, misaligned playback VCR, tape tension issues etc.) As stated by others, once tracking error is recorded to other media during the transfer process, there is no way to "fix it in the mix" after the fact.

A few of the "old war horses" on this board may recall Panasonic's NV-8950 Proline VCR with Piezoelectric-controlled heads to maximize tracking error correction and provide noise-free frame-by-frame analysis (a really big deal in those days).

Okay, but I have to admit, upon reflection, it is a very poor simile. I was attempting to make a point, but hamburger analogy does not correctly make it.

Many people think that noise in a picture, from bad tracking or any other reason, is like looking out a dirty window. All the picture information is there, it's merely masked or occluded. This is fundamentally incorrect. I was at a loss for a good analogy, and still am. It is much more like a jigsaw puzzle where you don't have the picture from the box cover, and some of the pieces are missing. After assembling the pieces, what you see when you look at it is part of the picture, and the tabletop underneith where the missing pieces are (noise). The information is (pieces are) missing, and no software can create the missing data out of nothing.

The hamburger idea was that the noise scrambles the picture so thoroughly that it cannot be reconstructed. that is in error, because it implies that all the data is there, just impossible to reconstruct. Bad tracking on a VCR means the data is just not there to be reconstructed.

If you are looking at static images, you are correct. If you look at the images temporally, the info unavailable in one frame may be available in the preceding or following frame.

The goverment has developed software to pull temporal information and put it in a static image, revealing a face or a liscence plate that is not visable in any indivual frame.

The same type of processing can be performed on full motion video and there are some packages available that a civilian can buy. They are not ready for primetime yet but I expect improvement in the future.

The goverment has developed software to pull temporal information and put it in a static image, revealing a face or a liscence plate that is not visable in any indivual frame.

The same type of processing can be performed on full motion video and there are some packages available that a civilian can buy. They are not ready for primetime yet but I expect improvement in the future.

Yes, I've seen that technology in use on CSI, NCIS and 24.

I remember a guy named Dick Tracy that had a small two-way radio mounted on his wrist.

But that's old technology. Now we have a similar device held up to the side of our head while we drive with one hand and crash our vehicle. Some manage to continue on their way not realizing that their inattention caused others to crash their vehicles.

Some folks have OnStar that will send a meat-wagon to cart away their body after a vehicle crash.

Yes, I've seen that technology in use on CSI, NCIS and 24.

I remember a guy named Dick Tracy that had a small two-way radio mounted on his wrist.

But that's old technology. Now we have a similar device held up to the side of our head while we drive with one hand and crash our vehicle. Some manage to continue on their way not realizing that their inattention caused others to crash their vehicles.

Some folks have OnStar that will send a meat-wagon to cart away their body after a vehicle crash.

You can try it out yourself. The software is free for trial use. It actually does a good job cleaning up noise but does not increase resolution as much as I hoped.

I have had good luck with old DVDs removing video noise. I have not tried it on analog noise but based on the way it works, it should actually work better on analog.

YMMV but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

You know, there is a great example of a piece of video that people have spent literally tens of millions of dollars on, and they haven't gotten past the "noise" issue, and no one I have hear of even thinks that they can, because, as I say, the data is missing and cannot be realistically recovered. I am referring to the Zapruder film. There is a small segment where the motorcade is blocked by a road sign. If it were possible to reconstruct the information on those frame behind the sign, someone would have done it. Man-years have been spent studying that film. I have never seen a copy of the film with computer interpolation of the events behind the sign. It's noise masking missing information.

You know, there is a great example of a piece of video that people have spent literally tens of millions of dollars on, and they haven't gotten past the "noise" issue, and no one I have hear of even thinks that they can, because, as I say, the data is missing and cannot be realistically recovered. I am referring to the Zapruder film. There is a small segment where the motorcade is blocked by a road sign. If it were possible to reconstruct the information on those frame behind the sign, someone would have done it. Man-years have been spent studying that film. I have never seen a copy of the film with computer interpolation of the events behind the sign. It's noise masking missing information.

Now you are just being silly. I can't reconstruct images of your house in my home movies because I have never been to your house.

If you are supersampling a scene at 60 fields/30 frames per second, you have 30 chances per second of recording what the camera is pointed at. All you need is a program smart enough to tell what is image vs. noise and rebuild the scene.

The program smarts to do that is getting better.