I know there has been a lot topics in the past regarding this, but things seem to change pretty quickly.

If I'm not interested in sports, who has the most HD channels and who has the highest quality mpeg4 HD channels.

All I know is most of my Comcast HD channels look closer to old fashioned DVDs.

This topic covers the DBS providers in specific, and the Cable providers in general: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1058081

Check the local topic for what you can get from Comcast in your area.

cable hd pq is very dependent on your local service area.

generally speaking, most hd mpeg 4 channels are provided by d*

fios hands down has best hd pq.

I'd like to know how the PQ of D* compares to E*

most reports are that d*'s hd pq is superior to e*'s.

Wow...I've been a long time non HD user of Dish Network...and so I was planning on giving them a call today to order a new HD DVR and upgrade service...since my new plasma will arrive tomorrow. But now I hesitate. Perhaps now is the time to give Directv a try? I didn't realize one satellite provider could have a noticable difference in PQ. And I must say...that's a concern. If you pay the money for a new tv....you really want to have the best PQ possible! Wow! Well now I guess I will have to look into pricing and receivers. I must admit I'm addicted to the Dish Two Tuner DVR...It changed my life!!! :D

Does anyone know enough about fios to answer a few questions?

1. Is it the future, meaning will it penetrate virtually everywhere?

2. What percentage of households have fios available?

3. Is it likely to roll out in only the biggest cities for a long time?

Dish does 7 channels of MPEG 4 HD per transponder and to me it is not acceptable. I thought I heard Directv does only 4. Tell me if I am wrong.

I heard HD from direct is compressed a great deal. Maybe too much.

Dish is the only service to have 1080p HD on everything as well as HD only packages which also makes them the cheapest.

Of the channels that I care about direct has 2 that I want(comedy central, FX) and dish has one that direct doesn't(travel channel).

Dish has better receivers.

In terms of pq I think SD on Dish is better than direct. At least it was when I switched but there are newer receivers now. I haven't compared HD in a long time between the too. Though I would suspect Dish is better as well due to the 1080p vs 1080i.

The only 1080p from either Dish or DirectTV are a few VOD titles. No linear channels are 1080p on either of them or any other provider. DirecTV's PQ is generally accepted on these forums as being noticeably superior to Dish.

The only 1080p from either Dish or DirectTV are a few VOD titles. No linear channels are 1080p on either of them or any other provider. DirecTV's PQ is generally accepted on these forums as being noticeably superior to Dish.

From what I have read Direct has no 1080p period. Nor have I read anything about Direct's HD PQ being better. At least not "generally accepted". But then I spend most of my time on dbstalk.com

Dish is the only service to have 1080p HD on everything ...

I haven't compared HD in a long time between the too. Though I would suspect Dish is better as well due to the 1080p vs 1080i.

This is completely inaccurate. Dish does not have 1080p HD on everything.

Dish's DVRs have a pretty good reputation. However, the general consensus is that Fios offers the best HD picture quality, followed by DirecTV and possibly your local over the air broadcasters (depending on subchannels). Dish Network has HD picture quality that lags behind DirecTV, though Dish may beat AT&T's U-Verse.

Well then...if the picture on Directv is noticeably better than Dish....why would anyone go with Dish? The ability to attach a hard drive and have more space? Perhaps the DVR is more user friendly? I'm curious. I've been a customer of Dish Network for 9 years now. I am used to their equipment (currently I have the 522 dual tuner DVR and love it!) and have always thought of them as having very good customer service. All my interactions have been positive. Still, I'm about to go HD...and it's confusing. The information I have been able to dig up suggests Directv has a few more channels....but that Dish is adding more...and fast. The grid posted here on AVS in another thread shows more announced HD channels for Dish....so the outcome of this years race would look to heavily favor Dish. Disclaimer: if sports are left out of the equation.

After all my rambling...what i want to know is this...

How can I stay with Dish if the picture quality is not up to par with Directv? Isn't the whole idea behind HDTV to have a rich and beautiful....almost flawless viewing experience? It seems crazy to buy a nice 1080p set and then show with a poor quality signal...yes?

Many people like Dish's DVR interface better. Dish's Turbo HD package is the cheapest way to get a lot of HD channels. Other than that, the only other real advantage is for people in the eastern half of the country who don't have a clear line of sight to the normal 99-119 area; Dish has a second grouping of sats further east that duplicates most of the programming.

I heard HD from direct is compressed a great deal. Maybe too much.
Not true. D* is using less compression on their HD signals right now and has fewer channels on each transponder.

Dish is the only service to have 1080p HD on everything as well as HD only packages which also makes them the cheapest.
While they may have cheaper packages, you're wrong about 1080p. There are no 1080p channels on any provider - they don't exist. VOD is the only source of VOD on any provider.

Of the channels that I care about direct has 2 that I want(comedy central, FX) and dish has one that direct doesn't(travel channel).
That's 2 to 1. How important are those 2 channels vs. the one you get now?

Dish has better receivers.
That's an individual preference, though many might agree with this. However, TiVo will be coming back to D* at some point, so that opinion may change.

In terms of pq I think SD on Dish is better than direct. At least it was when I switched but there are newer receivers now. I haven't compared HD in a long time between the too. Though I would suspect Dish is better as well due to the 1080p vs 1080i.
So, first, the opinions you stated off the top of your post were based on old information. A lot has changed.

Second, 1080p doesn't look any better than 1080i. They're just different scan rates. They both contain 1080 vertical lines. The only advantage is with displaying film-based content, because 1080p can be displayed both in film's native frame rate (24fps) and the scanning style (top to bottom) in one pass per frame. That makes for smoother motion without the 3:2 pulldown judder - but only on TVs that can properly display it. Not many do.

That's 2 to 1. How important are those 2 channels vs. the one you get now?



Well seeing as all I care about is HD I can get the channels for cheaper from dish. $40/month vs $75/month with direct.(after promotions)

With the dish receiver I can record 3 shows at once. So that coupled with the price make Dish the clear winner in my book.

If there are any shows i'm missing I just download them.

In terms of PQ most people report no difference. I searched the forums on DBStalk and found two people who have both services, side by side and say there is absolutely no difference in PQ. Some say one is better, others say the other one. Some in recent threads complain about direct PQ, a softening and darkening of the image in recent months. Others complain about dish.
I do not see any clear sort of consensus in any one direction.

I do not see any clear sort of consensus in any one direction.Read more. You will find a clear preference for DirecTV HD over Dish HD at this time.

Where do you want me to read? And please don't mistake this question as sarcasm or a challenge...but seriously...I've been digging all day long. And I have read a few more posts talking about PQ being better on Directv...but I wouldn't call it a landslide. At this point, I think I will stay with Dish Network...simply because Directv's DVR doesn't sound as fast or user friendly. And...call it a hunch...but I think Dish will offer up my HD channels than Directv. At least this is my guess based on the continued battle they wage. I must confess that familiarity with Dish and the lack of interest in sports pretty much is enough to keep me where I'm at. Interestingly enough...much of what I watch is normally on the major networks/ locals...or from Netflix. So...I think Dish will do it. BUT...I would still like to see the compelling trend towards Directv that you and others speak of here in this thread. Thanks!

Where do you want me to read?Do a search in this forum for the terms 'DirecTV' and 'Dish', 'E*' and D*', in the title field.

At this point, I think I will stay with Dish Network...simply because Directv's DVR doesn't sound as fast or user friendly.That's also forum consensus.

One sad fact is that a satellite person, adding HD, who does not have an ongoing contract, will probably get a better deal by switching from D* to E* or from E* to D*. You may get around around this with a long negotiation with customer retention specialist.
I still feel Dish is a better overall package of offerings if you do not need Sunday Ticket or Extra Innings. I did switch to Dish for HD thinking that the MLB EX Innings dispute would be settled. In another year, (two year commitment) I may try DirecTV again. My experience has been that the installation and receivers have a short life span. Antenna mounts droop, remotes get worn out, why not get new stuff?

Well then...if the picture on Directv is noticeably better than Dish....why would anyone go with Dish? The ability to attach a hard drive and have more space?

DirecTV boxes can be opened up and the hard drive can be swapped if you are handy with a screw driver. I have a couple of terrabyte drives in my DirecTV DVRs. Weaknees (sp?) will do it for a fee - so adding hard drive capacity is not that big a deal for either service

I used to have Dish years ago an found the quality acceptable. However I now have DirecTV and am really impressed with the quality.

I will tell you - there was nothing like Voom - now that was picture quality -- but I digress

DirecTV boxes can be opened up and the hard drive can be swapped if you are handy with a screw driver.
DirecTV's HD DVR supports an external hard drive. There's no reason to open it up and void the warranty.

DirecTV's HD DVR supports an external hard drive. There's no reason to open it up and void the warranty.

Well It looks like Dish can now supports External Hard drives now.


http://www.dishnetwork.com/receivers/expandYourDVR/default.aspx

Well It looks like Dish can now supports External Hard drives now.


http://www.dishnetwork.com/receivers/expandYourDVR/default.aspx

They have supported it for a long time now. The difference is that when adding an external to a direct receiver it replaces the drive built in(correct me if i'm wrong) all info and settings, everything is stored on the external and the internal stops being used.

On dish that's not the case but you have to manually move shows you want to save over to the external.

when adding an external to a direct receiver it replaces the drive built in(correct me if i'm wrong) all info and settings, everything is stored on the external and the internal stops being used.
This is correct, but not all settings are stored on the drive. Just the Prioritizer. Everything else persists.

I expect there may be a few inaccuracies here....but when doing my own comparison based on what I would want...here's what I get with Directv/Dish Network.

If I order up Directv's Plus HD DVR Package...

I get all the same stuff as I would in the Dish Network package listed below...200+SD channels...plus many of the same HD channels that Dish Network provides.

The difference is that I get HD channels that Dish Network does not provide. Those channels include the following:

101 Network
Comedy Central
CMT
MLB Network
MTV
NHL Network
Nickelodeon
Speed
Spike
VH1
??? I think I would have also added Fox News to this list...but I think Dish Network may have this as of recently.

If I go with Dish Networks Classic Gold 250 and add Turbo Gold...

I get most of the same SD channels as Directv....but I also get some HD channels that Directv does not provide. Those channels include the following:

Lifetime
Lifetime Movie Network
Encore
Hallmark Movie Channel
The Travel Channel
WGN America

Directv gives a lower price for the HD extra package at $4.99...and it adds...

Crime & Investigation
HDnet Movies
MGM Movies
MHD (Music High Definition)
Smithsonian HD
Universal HD

Dish Network gives a price of $10 for it's Turbo Platinum package...and it adds...

Crime & Investigation]
HDnet Movies
Universal HD
WFN HD
NHL Network (I think...not sure...can't read logo or find so well on site)
NBA Network (I think...not sure...can't read name of find so well on site)

Price for packages without the extras are close. Dish Network gives free HD with the Classic Gold 250 package for 6 months...after that time it adds $10 to the price. I haven't looked at the cost of DVR rental so this comparison is just a rough draft.

Directv gives a reduced price for it's Plus HD DVR package....and it lasts for 12 months. I believe this cost includes the DVR.

The prices appear close....but I could be wrong. I know the extra pack is better priced for Directv.

Without extras it looks like a crap shoot. The price for Dish seems lower for the Classic 250 plus Turbo Gold...but only for 6 months. Then it goes to it's regular price. This price looks like it's lower than Directv's final price for the Plus HD DVR package. But Directv gives a lower price for a full year.

I could be wrong but it looks like the price is somewhere between $5 and $10 difference between the two compared packages. I think Directv is the more expensive in the long run.

One thing is...it depends on if you are a new customer or can haggle your way to a good deal. At least this is what I've read here at AVS.

Not sure this post is very helpful...but it helps me to sort our my thoughts.

I asked my wife the question...without knowing which provider is giving what...which of the HD channels would you want. Then I read off the ones D* gives that E* does not...then I read the other list.

She prefers the E* list. I'm sure Lifetime, Lifetime Movie Network and Encore and maybe the Hallmark Movie Channel were the reasons. I like Encore...but have to admit that I would like to have Comedy Central, Spike and the 101 Network just as much.

It's basically a wash given our situation. I think the edge goes to Directv for the price of their extras...and some of the channels I find interesting. I think the edge goes to Dish for their DVR and the WAF of having the Lifetime channels.

I'm going to take it for granted that the PQ is better with Directv.

I also believe both companies now provide Fox News HD...even though I couldn't find it on either list.

I'm leaning towards staying with Dish Network...due to the DVR and WAF. We're not sports fans to the extent that Directv is compelling. And it would be my hope that more channels are added to Dish soon...in order to make the comparison even harder.

I would order the extra package with Directv...but would not add the Turbo Platinum with Dish. They need to put Smithsonian and/or perhaps something else in there to sweeten the deal.

I hope this helps someone else...or at least provides for helpful debate on making a choice.

:)

CBS College Sports
Palladia
The Disney Channel
I'm not going to read all that, but these three HD channels are also on DirecTV.

I'm not going to read all that, but these three HD channels are also on DirecTV.

Thanks...I edited my post. Btw...I figure only someone in my same situation will have the threshold for pain that is required to trudge through my post. :o

Btw...some digging has led to information that suggests the following HD channels will be available on E* this spring:

Nickelodeon, Comedy Central, MTV, CMT, Spike TV, VH1 and BET. These were in a flyer sent out to Dish Network customers recently.

Btw...some digging has led to information that suggests the following HD channels will be available on E* this spring:

Nickelodeon, Comedy Central, MTV, CMT, Spike TV, VH1 and BET. These were in a flyer sent out to Dish Network customers recently.

I was just going to post the same thing before seeing your post. I just got the flyer in the mail this week.

I hope this helps someone else...or at least provides for helpful debate on making a choice.Easier to figure out here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1058081

Easier to figure out here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1058081

I think that may be out of date. I have been a Dish subscriber for over two years, now. I went with Dish because I was an early Voom subscriber, and to this day I miss Voom. So, Dish gets rid of the Voom channels. One of the channels they added was Smithsonian. Now, as of 1/31 that is gone.

WHY WOULD DISH REMOVE ANY HD CHANNEL? How about removing SD channels and adding every HD channel known to mankind?

WHY WOULD DISH REMOVE ANY HD CHANNEL?
The same reason they remove any other channel: contract disputes.

GAWD this is CORNFUSLING!!!

This is about the seventh thread I've read since I did an AVS Forum search for "DISH vs. DirecTV" (and the first one worthy of a response). I've not clicked on any of the links provided by Ken and others, yet (although I figure anyone with almost 36,000 posts to his credit and the title of HDTV Forum Moderator likely wouldn't post a link NOT worthy of reading, so I certainly will), but I am DEFINITELY ready to leave Charter Cable here in Spartanburg, SC

Their selection of HD channels is pitiful, they REFUSE to give ANY timetable on when they'll add new channels, such as SciFi, and they just increased rates by some $20/month, to the point I'm paying $128/month for two HD boxes WITHOUT DVR on either one, and "biggest" package that doesn't include either their foreign language OR Sports packages but DOES include HBO, Showtime, Starz and Cinemax (I get only ONE of each of those in HD).

Just this afternoon I did a workup of a four-room setup for both DISH and DirecTV for my home (as I currently also have basic cable in two bedrooms) I worked up the largest (GOLD package) on DISH, plus their platinum HD package, and even when I clicked to NOT do it with the two-year contract the rate was just $106.99/month with two HD and two regular boxes (first HD box with DVR) (BIG discount first few months/year with contract)...

With DirecTV, I got only ONE HD box of ANY description for free (second one was a minimum $99 upcharge, and so were most of the other add-ons, and even WITH the new-customer/contract discounts I was looking at $106/year starting off, PLUS $75 initial fee (no initial fee with DISH).

I KNOW deals differ and vary from week to week (I went to the main website for both companies). Both my HDTVs are only 720P, but I AM using a 1080P 24" monitor with my computer and I DO plan to buy a 1080P TV the next time I buy one, so getting 1080P IS a consideration, although not the only one... Best picture is somewhat, as well, although I'm pretty sure either will beat what Charter's giving me.

My other concerns are that currently I also record A LOT of TV from "basic cable" using Windows Media Center on my computers (recording on two shows while watching a third right now) Even with an HD DVR box, I'd STILL like that option on the computer... Is there a way you can use Media Center on your computer TV tuners with Satellite TV?

Based on the comparisons I showed above, does it seem reasonable to go with DISH? I mean, it looks like DirecTV is asking me to pay through the nose as badly as Charter is, and from what I can see, not offering any more channels than DISH (about the same)... In fact, I worked up my DirecTV quote using their SECOND-largest package (200 channels), whereas I worked up my DISH quote using their largest.

One other thing... Have any of you dropped Cable TV and kept your cable modem? There's no comparable local broadband service. I'm wondering if they'll let me do that, and if they do, how much they'll jack up the price.
Jeff

I think that may be out of date.If you read the topic, you'll see the chart was updated before Dish dropped Smithsonian, but it's noted in one of the posts below.

Because things can move fast with HD programming, not every chart is updated with every change, but the posts following have recent changes. Once the changes are added, the posts are pruned from the topic.

After thoroughly perusing that chart I noticed that AT&T appears to have more channels than just about anybody (except Verizon, who has NEVER had a presence in my area). Since We had AT&T here, then BellSouth, which is now AT&T again, sadly, I thought, "what the heck?" But every time I'd looked at their offerings, I was pretty sure they'd offered DSL along with one of the other two major satellite providers... I went to their website again, and that's what I saw (DSL and DirecTV)... So I did a search for Uverse, since I'd figured out that was what it was called, and THEN I got a link to an AT&T site with that on it -- both great-looking HD offerings AND faster broadband than even Charter offers... but when I plugged in my address, it's NOT offered here yet -- FIGURES! Looks like I'm back right back to the DISH or DirecTV debate. I'm so angry with Charter I'll go back to an antenna before I stick with them!
Jeff

Just this afternoon I did a workup of a four-room setup for both DISH and DirecTV for my home (as I currently also have basic cable in two bedrooms) I worked up the largest (GOLD package) on DISH, plus their platinum HD package, and even when I clicked to NOT do it with the two-year contract the rate was just $106.99/month with two HD and two regular boxes (first HD box with DVR) (BIG discount first few months/year with contract)...

With DirecTV, I got only ONE HD box of ANY description for free (second one was a minimum $99 upcharge, and so were most of the other add-ons, and even WITH the new-customer/contract discounts I was looking at $106/year starting off, PLUS $75 initial fee (no initial fee with DISH).

I KNOW deals differ and vary from week to week (I went to the main website for both companies). Both my HDTVs are only 720P, but I AM using a 1080P 24" monitor with my computer and I DO plan to buy a 1080P TV the next time I buy one, so getting 1080P IS a consideration, although not the only one... Best picture is somewhat, as well, although I'm pretty sure either will beat what Charter's giving me.
Overall, D* provides a better picture for HD. The standard startup is more (and there's that contract), but you may be able to negotiate a deal on the upfront costs.

My other concerns are that currently I also record A LOT of TV from "basic cable" using Windows Media Center on my computers (recording on two shows while watching a third right now) Even with an HD DVR box, I'd STILL like that option on the computer... Is there a way you can use Media Center on your computer TV tuners with Satellite TV?
You can't tune the signals with either service without a box. If OTA is available to you, you can still do that.

Based on the comparisons I showed above, does it seem reasonable to go with DISH? I mean, it looks like DirecTV is asking me to pay through the nose as badly as Charter is, and from what I can see, not offering any more channels than DISH (about the same)... In fact, I worked up my DirecTV quote using their SECOND-largest package (200 channels), whereas I worked up my DISH quote using their largest.
If price is your main concern, the E* will match that. However, I think D* is well worth what I'm paying.

One other thing... Have any of you dropped Cable TV and kept your cable modem? There's no comparable local broadband service. I'm wondering if they'll let me do that, and if they do, how much they'll jack up the price.
Jeff
It depends on the provider. For instance, here, Comcast gives you a $5/month discount on a cable modem if you get their most basic cable service - as in, the whole price for both together is $5 less than the cable modem alone. They do that so they can claim you as a customer. I dropped them and went with DSL, which was half the price. My plan is a slower speed one than I'd get with cable (1.5Mb/s vs. 3Mb/s), but it's plenty fast for my needs. However, DSL is only practical if you have a land line already since adding it would put you well over the cost of just keeping the cable modem.

I don't know if it's Forum ettiquette or what, and I apologize, but I just don't follow all of these abbreviations... I THINK I've figured out that D* is short for DirecTV, but I'm not sure WHAT E* and some of the others mean. Not sure if there was some issue with using the actual names and possible legal issues or something that caused folks to start using the abbreviations, but I just don't know them all.

It looked like a BIG price difference to me between DISH and DirecTV... a few bucks one way or the other wouldn't matter. My major concerns are getting at least two HD boxes and DVR with at least one of those -- preferably at least dual-DVR plus watch a third channel -- especially since according to the reply from NetworkTV above, I will no longer be able to use any of my PC tuner cards and Media Center to record anything using Coax inputs -- unless I just run an antenna to them (both are NTSC, so they'll require a converter box, lol), and I''m at the bottom of a hill where even a 30-foot antenna mast never gave us very good reception.

Then again, with Hulu and Graboid and all the stuff available at the network websites, I think I can get my fill... Just not sure what I'll fill my now-4.5 TB of hard drives with, lol.
Jeff

I don't know if it's Forum ettiquette or what, and I apologize, but I just don't follow all of these abbreviations
D* = DirecTV, and E* = Echostar, which is the company that owns Dish. It has nothing to do with legal issues, it's just (very annoying) shorthand.
It looked like a BIG price difference to me between DISH and DirecTV
You mentioned in your post that they both came out to around $106. Aside from DirecTV's one-time fees, which can be haggled down, there really shouldn't be that big of a difference.

After the free period for the premium movie channels is up after 3 months with DirecTV, Jeremy, it will be roughly $140!!! (I JUST finished doing another mock-buy there before checking my email for more replies to this thread)... This time I compared apples to apples, based on their biggest package.

I did that right after doing the same thing with DISH (which IS missing FX in HD -- one of the few regular cable channels Charter actually HAS in HD I care to watch), and DISH will be about $106 AFTER they take away all the rebates... So I'm looking at more than a 30% price difference, here. DISH also includes a second HD DVR at their price, with just a $100 upgcharge, and up to four standard HD receivers (two of which can be DVRs with one of them free)... DirecTV gives you ONLY HD OR HD DVR, but if you choose BOTH, then you automatically pay a $100 upcharge, even if you're just getting the DVR on ONE set. They DO have FX in HD, though, but I could live without that ONE channel. Main thing I DON'T like about Dish -- besides them charging through the nose for their HD (seems like when you get one of their bigger packages with HD, they literally GIVE YOU the SD channels and mostly just charge for the HD), is that they charge another $10 for just 7 CHANNELS, but at least a couple are channels I very much enjoy now, and want to keep, such as HDNet movies and Universal HD, which was one of the earliest HD channels with Charter (or at least it's been in their lineup as long as I've had HD, roughly 2.5 years).

I will likely take some of your advice and haggle with whichever company I go to try to get a better deal... Of course I could probably call Charter now, raise almighty, get in touch with Customer Retention and get at least SOME satisfaction from them, but I'm just tired of their "we're doing the customer A FAVOR" attitude!

I DO have another question, or two... Charter just ran another one of their fear-mongering Satellite TV commercials (which have had SOME impact on me sticking with cable as long as I have). In this one, a man was on his roof trying to scrape snow and ice off his satellite antenna and slipped and about broke his neck... Hanging upside-down off the roof, he was looking through his neighbors' window and marveling at the beautiful picture they were getting (via Charter, of course). We've all seen these ads -- rain, snow, high winds... all disrupt satellites to where they don't work properly, or at all... How much truth, if any, is there to this for those of you who have satellite TVs.

One more question, although I'm pretty sure I already have the answer... Back 25 years or more ago, in the "golden age" of Satellite TV when folks were paying $10,000 for 10-foot monstrosity dishies they put in their front yards to get all the satellite feeds for free (before they all got scrambled), one benefit a lot of people touted was they could get direct network feeds and bypass the local network affiliates. I see NO MENTION ANYWHERE of such options with Dish or DirecTV. I KNOW at least with cable companies, they actually force the cable companies to PAY THEM to carry their signal locally (which seems ludicruous -- if anything, they should be paying the cable companies for doing them a service!). However, when I'm watching a network show, I'd generally MUCH PREFER if I could get a DIRECT network feed...

For one thing, local TV stations have gone "weather-happy." It seems any time the wind blows a little, some TV "meteorologist feels COMPELLED to break into regular programming to tell you stuff you really don't need to know and at the least could have waited until 11 p.m. to hear about... But this "on-the-spot weather" stuff is BIG BUSINESS for local TV these days, and some of them are SOOOOO self-important with it, they're constantly CHOMPING AT THE BIT to see who can be first on the air to let you know there's a thunderstorm 100 miles away, yadda yadda yadda! Never fails they break into a program right during a pivotal moment, and just long enough that you miss some important part of the story.

Worse yet, some stations, like my local ABC affiliate, belong to local "sports Networks," like the Raycom Sports Network in this case. At least once a season the past couple years I've switched to them to watch "Lost" and there some silly basketball game between two teams like Appalachian State and Wake Forest (like WHO really cares?!?) I emailed the manager once, and he told me they had a contract with Raycon and HAD TO AIR those games regardless of WHAT show was on... Sometimes they'll re-play the show later, but most often, it's at llike 2 a.m. and they won't even bother to put a scroll bar on the screen saying so!

Any options for those of us who'd like to just skip the local channels altogether?
Jeff

I recently made the switch from Comcast Cable (Houston) to DirectTV Satellite based on many of the reviews of many threads on the avsforums. My main reason for switching was to get more HD channels and a better DVR. I decided to leave my Comcast Cable service turned on so I could do an apples-to-apples comparison of picture quality. Before the installer left we made sure the signal strength was the best it could be and everythings was correctly installed. Switching back and forth on the same channels on my 61" JVC pro HDTV using all the same hardware and connections...it was easy to see that Comcast Cable HD quality was much better than DirectTV. So much so, that on the locals channels the DirectTV images were soft/pixelated/blurry and colors were over saturated. ESPNHD was one of the best DTV channels however it still fell short of the PQ of Cable. The DirectTV quality varied greatly from one channel to another...some where ok...while others were borderline unwatchable. When I did the same comparison on my 32" Sharp Aquos HDTV....the differences were much harder to see. When my wife came in and watched one of her favorite shows, without me saying anything she started complaining about picture quality of DirectTV. I took some still pictures of the differences by pausing both DVR on the same scene....when I reviewed the pictures on my computer you could see that the CC picture was sharper and colors were more natural....while the DTV images were softer and had more digital artifacts. Funny thing, I was visiting a local Home Theater store and noticed the same picture artifacts on all of their HDTVs and when I asked the source of the signal...they told me DirectTV. So, I made the decision to return DTV and remain with CC...it was not an easy decision...DTV had more channels and a better DVR for the same money...but for me PQ is what HDTV is all about...what's the point of having more channels if they look bad (not worthy of calling them HD). I know that Cable will someday start compressing their channel line-up in order to compete with satellite, but until that happens...when people visit my house...I want them to say WOW that picture looks great.

In Conclusion...you might want to do a side by side comparison before you sign a 2 year contract. I love it when you talk to folks and they say things like "digital is digital so the picture should be the same"...boy is that wrong. Digital only describes the technology being used, not the fact that you can have signal loss (no error correction like computer must use), overly compressed signals (taking a ~12Mb/s local channel and compressing to fit in a 6Mb/s pipe), MPEG2 vs MPEG4 (MPEG4 uses higher compression, lower bitrate), and on and on. A good comparison is if you take CD music and rip it (lossy) with MP3/AAC and listen to them on a high-quality Stereo and then rip it again with different bit rates...you will here the differences of quality between the different rates. Thats why all my music is ripped with lossless codec to give the highest quality sound.

I guess I'm rambling now...better stop. Thanks for letting me vent.

it was easy to see that Comcast Cable HD quality was much better than DirectTV.
There had to be another varible. With Comcast's 3:1 QAM stuffing, there is no way you were seeing better PQ on Comcast. DirecTV's PQ is close to FiOS, which is the pinnacle of PQ. And nobody would say that FiOS is "much better" than DirecTV.

Whether pwl is correct or not with his compare and contrast of Comcast and DirecTV, he brought up some very valid points that hadn't been addressed before in this thread, and I'm glad he did.

"Digital IS Digital" ONLY when all things are equal. IF a digital signal of a certain Mbps is forced into a channel smaller than that in which it can fit, that WILL make a difference, no doubt. An excellent example of this is when we try to watch streaming video of TV shows or movies online, and the stream is, say, 1.5 MBPS, but our top download speed on our broadband is (as in my case) 1.3 MBPS... CLOSE, but no cigar, and occasionally the stream would catch up, and I'd have a bit of flutter or stall in the picture. Things can get REALLY confusing, as well, because most specs are given in Mbps, which is MegaBITS per second, but everyone is used to thinking in MBPS, which is MegaBYTES per second... To convert, we have to divide the Mbps figure by 8. So a 10 Mbps cable connection, like I have, would be divided by 8 to get the actual MBPS figure (which actually comes to about 1.22 MBPS, but using Graboid I found my connection could actually squeeze out 1.3, which is why I quoted that figure).

I clicked on Charter's HD Menu last night and scrolled through its list of HD channels, and there are actually 36 listed here, locally (including several that seem to ALWAYS be off the air)... Still, more than I thought, but considering that SEVERAL of them are music channels I never care to watch, several more are Sports channels, DITTO (except maybe major tennis tournaments on ESPN, like the recent Australian Open), One is a PPV movie channel and I DON'T do PPV... So my "effective" channel list is still way down in the 20s.

Not sure WHY I didn't see Sci-Fi on DISH's channel offerings before, BUT now that I've gone back and looked again, I see FX missing, and that's one of the OTHER "expanded basic" channels I watch a lot (and one of the few Charter actually DOES have in HD here, now). The DISH deal looks SO MUCH BETTER (price-wise), even though they DO charge you $10 more per month for just 7 extra channels, and I HAVE TO HAVE UHD! But I'm sort of seeing the light on why D* has its advantages (other than the "pwl" experience). This conflict is likely going to have me debating for a couple more weeks, as I continue to look into this.

Nobody has answered my question, yet, about weather and satellite TV. DO you have issues during high wind... rain... snow, etc?
Jeff

Nobody has answered my question, yet, about weather and satellite TV. DO you have issues during high wind... rain... snow, etc?
Jeff

I am evaluating now...but not in a hurry since my hdtv was delivered damaged and I'm waiting on a replacement. I plan on a break in period...having a new HD receiver will just tempt me more during the break in.

To answer your question. I have Dish Network regular SD package. I have occasionally had rain fade. It's not often...and usually it's short...but it has happened. I've had Dish Network for over 8 years now and I would say I've suffered from rain fade about 30 times in this period. Just guessing. Most of the time it was extremely brief. Some pixelation occured. A few times....maybe ten of those...I lost signal. You can go weeks with nothing but perfect viewing...then have a rainy period and have the glitches. It usually take a decent amount of rain to get rain fade. I've never heard of wind problems with satellite. I've had many windy days with no problems. I have had a few cloudy days where there was no rain in the immediate area...but I still suffered from the cloud cover. Perhaps this is still rain fade?

I had such contempt for my local cable company that once I switched I never looked back. I have also had my locals through both the satellite and an attic antenna. The antenna connection for locals is a great back up. I plan on keeping this configuration so I can also pull my locals in HD via the antenna.

Cable has it's outages too. Perhaps not as often...but usually for longer periods of time when it does happen. This is just my opinion...perhaps others will feel differently about these issues. Hope this helps.

Oh my cable SERVICE is GREAT, andiron... If my basis for whether or not to switch was on SERVICE, I'd NEVER switch. Cable is off maybe once every two years for an hour or so, if that... Cable modem service may go out a bit more frequently, but not much.

Last time we had an ice storm and were without power for several days, less than an hour after power came back on (cable was down, too, from a downed limb), I saw a cable truck passing by and pointed it out to him, and we had cable back within another hour. Where I live, we often go through entire winters without any significant snow or ice, but we CAN get a whopper every now and then. We do get heavy winds and rains sometimes, though... I'd love to read from more people on these issues.
Jeff

You need to be more concise when you post. Nobody wants to read all that.

You need to be more concise when you post. Nobody wants to read all that.

You need to be more PRECISE when you post, or NOBODY will know to whom you're referring, Jeremy. I assume it was me, since I'm known for long posts, but I don't quite hold the record in this thread (yet). I like to exposit (explain myself) and some see that as rambling. However I see that as better than leaving people wondering WHAT or WHO you're talking about, like you did by with the posting above... Could have been me, or andiron, or a couple of other posters.

Short is fine, but at least you could say to whom you're speaking.
Jeff

You need to be more PRECISE when you post, or NOBODY will know to whom you're referring, Jeremy. I assume it was me, since I'm known for long posts
You should assume it was you because of the simple fact that your post was right above mine. That's how a forum works. If I wasn't talking about the post directly above mine, I would have quoted or made some other indication.

Either way, it's just a suggestion.

Jeff are you saying that I'm long winded? :p

You need to be more concise when you post. Nobody wants to read all that.

No one wants to watch others criticize without having at least a little diplomacy either :)

People like myself know that we are long winded...and we pay the price because many people will not have the patience to read our posts. But truly...others might end up saying the same amount...but having it drag out over several posts. I think those of us that ramble would be better served with shorter posts...but it'd difficult. We want all of our variables to be out there and considered. It takes a lot of time to post...get replies that are based on lack of information...then spend time clarifying in a subsequent post, etc. Let's at least be nice and get along.

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING POST MAY BE TOO LONG FOR JEREMY TO BOTHER TO READ!
:p:p:p

You have a point, Jeremy, but sometimes when threads are moving fast, by the time a post is posted, two or three others have jumped ahead of it, so you can't always assume that when you post something in reply to a post, your post will come immediately AFTER that post. You know the old saying about when you "assume."

As for your "suggestion," point taken. I'm the FIRST to admit I can get long-winded. I know sometimes it's TMI... other times I feel I really need to put a lot of information or "exposition" into what I say to get the point across. To PROVE that I'm not always like that, on occasion I'll post a brief, one-sentence reply.

As for you, andiron, happy to see you have a sense of humor... yaknow, that's ABOUT the only sense I have! :p I'd like to note my posts aren't the FIRST in this thread to which Jeremy has replied "I'm not going to read all that." Well, if you "don't read all that" you might miss one of the most salient points of the entire post. I've read every single word by every single poster in this thread. There's another thread I frequent about a certain TV show where one poster is relentlessly negative about the show AND likes to put other posters down. In THAT thread I made an exception and put that poster ON IGNORE... Otherwise, I read every single word there, too. I won't say every single word by every single poster is always as interesting as others, but if you don't read the boring and droning along with the brief and beautiful, you never know what you might miss.
Jeff

I get ya...and agree! SuperShort!:p

Right on, andiron! :cool:

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING POST MAY BE TOO LONG FOR JEREMY TO BOTHER TO READ!
:p:p:p
I'm going to have to talk to the owner of this site and see if we can get that warning added to all posts longer than a certain length. :D

Jeremy, I'm so glad to see we can all get a bit "testy" with each other from time to time and then STILL have a sense of humor about it. I was a bit concerned (only a bit, but still a bit) that you would be angry with me (and maybe even andiron) after the past few posts -- especially THAT one. Happy to see you aren't. And I will attempt to be more concise.
Jeff

was a bit concerned (only a bit, but still a bit) that you would be angry with me (and maybe even andiron) after the past few posts -- especially THAT one.
Nah. I understand that my posts may come off as more dickish than I intend. But I just like to get my point across quickly and without any fluff. It's just my style.

Yeah, I get the style thing, Jeremy, but I SO MUCH agree with andiron that far too many posters have the quite annoying habit of posting too little information and then it takes several posts by others literally DRAGGING information out of them to get all the necessary details, before we ever get to "the meat of the matter." You'll seldom have that sort of issue with me, lol. I tend to think in complete paragraphs, if not in "complete essays," lol.
Jeff

Btw Guys...I spent some time reading threads on dbstalk yesterday and there are a few of them discussing picture quality on Dish vs Directv that are very interesting. One of them lists resolutions for both the HD signals and the SD signals. Of course there's a bit of debate and a few people who have compared the two say that there's no difference. One guy thought Dish was better for HD. But others insist Directv is better. I get the overall impression that Directv is a little better for HD quality. Conversely I get the impression that Dish is better for SD signals. The resolution figures given for SD and HD on both services back this up.

One other idea I feel is emerging from this is that for many people this won't matter. But on a larger set like the 60" Kuro, that I take delivery of this week, will be more prone to show any weakness in picture quality.

Now I'm torn even more. I pretty much think the channel line-ups will always be a competition. I like the Dish DVRs, etc. etc. ...but if the PQ on my new larger plasma will noticeably suffer between the two...then I'm worried. Even then...I'm not sure a switch to Directv will give such a great improvement. Sure wish I could compare them together on my new set! :)

Perhaps a new line of thought would be....50" or less...it's a toss up and comes down to choice of DVRs and channel preferences....anything larger and PQ becomes more relevant?

I'm still on the fence. I really have been super happy with my 522...and the 722 sounds even better!

Does this sound right to you?

There had to be another varible. With Comcast's 3:1 QAM stuffing, there is no way you were seeing better PQ on Comcast. DirecTV's PQ is close to FiOS, which is the pinnacle of PQ. And nobody would say that FiOS is "much better" than DirecTV.
Although I don't disagree that there might be another variable. For you to state "there is no way for me a see the difference", is completely false. Regardless of the type of technology used, picture quality is perceived by the viewer (and no my wife and I are NOT blind). In my house, on that day with my equipment on my favorite HDTV channels...there was a difference and I had to make a decision based on what I saw. And, when I saw the same issues with DTV at my local Home Theater store....it confirmed (to me) that what I was seeing was real. I don't want to get in a debate about how it is impossible for this to happen...it did for me, and I can only hope it does NOT for you.

Btw Guys...I spent some time reading threads on dbstalk yesterday and there are a few of them discussing picture quality on Dish vs Directv that are very interesting. One of them lists resolutions for both the HD signals and the SD signals. Of course there's a bit of debate and a few people who have compared the two say that there's no difference. One guy thought Dish was better for HD. But others insist Directv is better. I get the overall impression that Directv is a little better for HD quality. Conversely I get the impression that Dish is better for SD signals. The resolution figures given for SD and HD on both services back this up.

One other idea I feel is emerging from this is that for many people this won't matter. But on a larger set like the 60" Kuro, that I take delivery of this week, will be more prone to show any weakness in picture quality.

Now I'm torn even more. I pretty much think the channel line-ups will always be a competition. I like the Dish DVRs, etc. etc. ...but if the PQ on my new larger plasma will noticeably suffer between the two...then I'm worried. Even then...I'm not sure a switch to Directv will give such a great improvement. Sure wish I could compare them together on my new set! :)

Perhaps a new line of thought would be....50" or less...it's a toss up and comes down to choice of DVRs and channel preferences....anything larger and PQ becomes more relevant?

I'm still on the fence. I really have been super happy with my 522...and the 722 sounds even better!

Does this sound right to you?

You can take this for what it's worth. I had D* for 7 years and switched to E* because I just wanted to give them a try. Got the VIP722 and there complete HD programing. I switched back to D* a month and a half ago. During the switch, I left E* dish up. From D* I got HR23-700 and Slimline 3 LNB. Using one HDMI cable, I went from E* to D*. On my TV (Sammy LN52a550), D* had the better PQ for HD and surprisingly a lot better SD PQ as well. E* is gone and D* is on. Plus, once my 1 year promo is over with, I will still be paying less with D*.

You can take this for what it's worth. I had D* for 7 years and switched to E* because I just wanted to give them a try. Got the VIP722 and there complete HD programing. I switched back to D* a month and a half ago. During the switch, I left E* dish up. From D* I got HR23-700 and Slimline 3 LNB. Using one HDMI cable, I went from E* to D*. On my TV (Sammy LN52a550), D* had the better PQ for HD and surprisingly a lot better SD PQ as well. E* is gone and D* is on. Plus, once my 1 year promo is over with, I will still be paying less with D*.

They sure must have a different offer where you live than here, Oz Man. No matter how I sliced it, even if I didn't sign a contract with E*, my price with D* was higher here for comparable service, and I got only ONE HD DVR for free with my package (had to pay a $10/month upcharge to E* for the DVR, but NOT an extra $100 upfront lease fee for the second DVR, like with D*).

I've gone through a couple times and run the figures, and even done screen shots on the final quotes. If anyone wants, I'll be happy to insert them.
Jeff

To get the channels that I care about it's $35/month cheaper with Dish than it is with Direct.

remember one thing about the satcos.... things can change pretty fast

unlike cable which upgrades at snails pace while charging you more than
either satco, the quality of the satcos programming really goes back and
forth.

when i got my first hd display in 06, i researched the programming and quality of
comcast, dish, and direct. it was a no brainer then to pick dish. by far most hd channels, best dvr, and quality as good as direct, but not cable. cable cost too much and had too few hd channels to be viable.

then in late 07 after direct launches a couple of new birds, they zoom ahead of dish in # of hd channels and hd pq. dish has been playing catch up since then. direct also came out with a new and improved dvr which closed that gap as well.

dish launched a bird last year but it went awol and it hasn't really helped them yet, if ever. i believe dish recently launched another one, or will do so shortly, so the balance may tip in their favor later this year.

we need to hear from other more knowledgeable than me about the satcos schedule launches to get accurate info here.

also, after waiting 3 years my cableco finally upgraded out town's system. simulaneously the intentionally reduced their hd pq by increasing the number of broadcasts for each transponder. nice thinking fellas. the only selling point you have if better pq than
the satcos while costing significantly more, so you get rid of the only competetive advantage you have.

hey check out my new signature!

Hey Guys, just thought I would share my experience here as well...

I moved into a new place and got Directv started. I had 1 HD box, 1 HD DVR and one SD box. Things were great for a while until I upgraded the SD box to HD and purchased an additional HD DVR. After all that all hell broke loose and I'd get random "Searching for sat signals on all the tv's at random times - SO ANNOYING. Long story short, it took an act of god to get them to let me out of my contract even after 5 or 6 service calls not fixing the problem. Just this last week, Comcrap came out to install their service - my god the HD quality is horrible..it truly is!

So now, I am left with my only alternative being Dish Network. My question is, is the HD quality really ALL that different than Direct? I think everyone agrees that comcast quality generally sucks (with exceptions for a few markets). I get the feeling that Dishs' service isn't so bad its worth complaning about.. is this the case?

On a related note
What they were able to set me up with was Turbo Hd Silver and Classic Silver SD + 2 HD DVR 722's and 1 HD receiver with no out of pocket cost and $75 a month after promo's end...This is the same price as I currently have with Comcrap and includes an extra DVR and better overall equipment.....

They sure must have a different offer where you live than here, Oz Man. No matter how I sliced it, even if I didn't sign a contract with E*, my price with D* was higher here for comparable service, and I got only ONE HD DVR for free with my package (had to pay a $10/month upcharge to E* for the DVR, but NOT an extra $100 upfront lease fee for the second DVR, like with D*).

I've gone through a couple times and run the figures, and even done screen shots on the final quotes. If anyone wants, I'll be happy to insert them.
Jeff

When I started with Dish, I had the promo pricing for six months. Was paying $59. After that, this is how it broke down.
America's choice 250 W/DVR = $49
HD Program = $30 (Good Greif)
Locals = $5
PP = $6
Alternate HD Programing = $10
Lease fee $10
Total w/o State Tax = $110 I was paying monthly.

DirecTv after promo
Choice Extra HD/DVR = $73 Includes Locals & HD
Extra HD Pack = $5
Lease fee = $5
PP = $6
Sports Pack = $12 (Not available with E*)
Total after Promo = $101 Plus State Tax.

Bottom line is I get more HD and HD is cheaper and the sports pack and will still be paying less than E*.:)

They sure must have a different offer where you live than here, Oz Man.
Just FYI, DirecTV's promos and pricing are all national.

I DO have another question, or two... Charter just ran another one of their fear-mongering Satellite TV commercials (which have had SOME impact on me sticking with cable as long as I have). In this one, a man was on his roof trying to scrape snow and ice off his satellite antenna and slipped and about broke his neck... Hanging upside-down off the roof, he was looking through his neighbors' window and marveling at the beautiful picture they were getting (via Charter, of course). We've all seen these ads -- rain, snow, high winds... all disrupt satellites to where they don't work properly, or at all... How much truth, if any, is there to this for those of you who have satellite TVs.


I've had D* for over a year in Houston and I've had minimal problems with weather outages. I'm not home watching tv all the time, but I notice problems with the picture going out maybe once every 2 or 3 months or so during a severe storm. Normal rainfall doesn't cause me any problems. The radar basically has to be red and right over my house or just to the south to cause a problem and 90% of the time i've lost a signal, it has been for just a couple minutes. I lost power during after hurricane ike for 15 days, but as soon as I got a generator and plugged in my box and tv, everything was working normally so my dish survived the hurricane with no issues. I know people that had Comcast cable that didn't get their cable service restored for more than 2 weeks after the storm.

When I started with Dish, I had the promo pricing for six months. Was paying $59. After that, this is how it broke down.
America's choice 250 W/DVR = $49
HD Program = $30 (Good Greif)
Locals = $5
PP = $6
Alternate HD Programing = $10
Lease fee $10
Total w/o State Tax = $110 I was paying monthly.

DirecTv after promo
Choice Extra HD/DVR = $73 Includes Locals & HD
Extra HD Pack = $5
Lease fee = $5
PP = $6
Sports Pack = $12 (Not available with E*)
Total after Promo = $101 Plus State Tax.

Bottom line is I get more HD and HD is cheaper and the sports pack and will still be paying less than E*.:)

Hmmmm, Oz Man, sounds to me like E* likes to pull the same sort of bait-you-in and then SLAM YOU deals Charter is famous for here! Side note, we've gotten TWO snail-mail offers within the past month from D* here at the house (both sent to my mother -- the cable's in her name, even though I pay for it, and it's billed on MY credit card). Of course the deal they send us in the mail is for their cheapest package. I'm not interested in that. I want to save some $$$ if I can, but mostly I want to get more HD channels. Since upgrading to HD, I watch almost NO SD channels, the rare exceptions being what I want to watch on Sci-Fi, FX and USA, and now we get FX in HD on Charter.

The lone holdup for me at this point is that I won't be able to use Media Center to record on my computer, BUT I might keep basic cable along with my cable modem, since I don't have any good alternatives for that, anyway, and then I'll still have those options for SD recordings when I need to record programs beyond what I can get on the DVR(s). Might depend on how much Charter wants for keeping just basic cable.
Jeff

Btw...some digging has led to information that suggests the following HD channels will be available on E* this spring:

Nickelodeon, Comedy Central, MTV, CMT, Spike TV, VH1 and BET. These were in a flyer sent out to Dish Network customers recently.

Take that with a grain of salt from either company. I take it as it's in the plans and plans can change and often do with both. If it happens great but I wouldn't put to much weight on it now.

Although I don't disagree that there might be another variable. For you to state "there is no way for me a see the difference", is completely false.
Perhaps you should read his post again:

There had to be another varible. With Comcast's 3:1 QAM stuffing, there is no way you were seeing better PQ on Comcast. DirecTV's PQ is close to FiOS, which is the pinnacle of PQ. And nobody would say that FiOS is "much better" than DirecTV.

Nowhere does he say anything about not being able to see a difference.

In fact, he said there is no way you're seeing better picture quality with Comcast. He also said D* is close to FIOS - i.e., enough that while it's better, it's not "much better".

Based on this, perhaps your eyesight needs checking - which would explain why you prefer Comcast at their current compression level.

I love it when you talk to folks and they say things like "digital is digital so the picture should be the same"...boy is that wrong. Digital only describes the technology being used, not the fact that you can have signal loss (no error correction like computer must use), overly compressed signals (taking a ~12Mb/s local channel and compressing to fit in a 6Mb/s pipe), MPEG2 vs MPEG4 (MPEG4 uses higher compression, lower bitrate), and on and on. A good comparison is if you take CD music and rip it (lossy) with MP3/AAC and listen to them on a high-quality Stereo and then rip it again with different bit rates...you will here the differences of quality between the different rates. Thats why all my music is ripped with lossless codec to give the highest quality sound.
You have completely misunderstood the context of how that phrase is used here.

When it's used, it's referring to a connection from a source to the TV, be it a satellite TV box or a TV transmitter. In the digital world, you either get the signal or you don't. If you get the signal, it will look as good as it was sent. It won't start to get fuzzy or ghost-like when the signal level drops. You either get it or you don't. If the source is not compressed very much, it will look that good at your TV. If it's compressed a lot, it would look exactly that bad at your TV. This same principle goes for digital cables: a working cable will pass the bits exactly how they are sent. In the case of an HDMI cable, digital is digital. A more expensive cable won't improve your image unless the cable is defective.

That's where the "digital is digital" phrase comes from. It's in reference to either getting the signal or not - not in reference to the quality of the compression. With digital, either it works or it doesn't.

Perhaps you should read his post again:

Nowhere does he say anything about not being able to see a difference.

In fact, he said there is no way you're seeing better picture quality with Comcast. He also said D* is close to FIOS - i.e., enough that while it's better, it's not "much better".

Based on this, perhaps your eyesight needs checking - which would explain why you prefer Comcast at their current compression level.

You have completely misunderstood the context of how that phrase is used here.

When it's used, it's referring to a connection from a source to the TV, be it a satellite TV box or a TV transmitter. In the digital world, you either get the signal or you don't. If you get the signal, it will look as good as it was sent. It won't start to get fuzzy or ghost-like when the signal level drops. You either get it or you don't. If the source is not compressed very much, it will look that good at your TV. If it's compressed a lot, it would look exactly that bad at your TV. This same principle goes for digital cables: a working cable will pass the bits exactly how they are sent. In the case of an HDMI cable, digital is digital. A more expensive cable won't improve your image unless the cable is defective.

That's where the "digital is digital" phrase comes from. It's in reference to either getting the signal or not - not in reference to the quality of the compression. With digital, either it works or it doesn't.


1st, Jeremy did state: "there is no way you're seeing better picture quality with Comcast", if fact I did see a difference. And my eyes are just fine, thank you. :)
2nd, I did a side-by-side comparison, and in my comparison...the picture quality for my favorite HDTV channels was better on Comcrap. (Believe me I would love to leave Comcrap for DTV...it was heartbreaking for me to have to stay with Comcrap. :(
3rd, There is no error correction with digital broadcast...if the signal is bad or bits are lost, whatever the cause (rain, poor HDMI cable, etc.) there might still be a picture...until the % of data gets too low for a picture and then it drops the picture. By your logic, if a digital signal sends 1000 bits and only 999 make it to the TV...there will be no picture. I'm not sure the % it takes to completely drop the picture, maybe 10% maybe more....but some bits can be lost and you still have a picture. So, when bits are lost the pictures quality will show digital artifacts in the form of pixelization or loss in PQ. Regardless, I know what I saw...I don't know the full cause for the differences in PQ between CC and DTV, but again on my TV, on that day, there was a difference seen by more than myself....even thought all the numbers might say otherwise....the CC picture was better on the channels that I cared about.

1st, Jeremy did state: "there is no way you're seeing better picture quality with Comcast"
Yes, I did. And NetworkTV said:
he said there is no way you're seeing better picture quality with Comcast.
Which is something I am sticking by.
There is no error correction with digital broadcast
Of course there is. Digital broadcasts wouldn't work without error correction, you're very rarely getting a 100% perfect signal.

I looked over the paperwork DirecTV sent us in the mail again, and noted that among the HD channels they had listed were CBS HD, NBC HD, etc. for ALL the major networks. Does this mean that you can get DIRECT network feeds in ADDITION to getting your local network channels?

I've asked this question before in a different way and nobody answered it. This is something I REALLY WANT -- and I KNOW the local network carriers DON'T want anyone getting it -- because it means that people can view network programming direct and bypass their signals, and thus their local commercials -- BUT I'm SO FED UP with all their breaking-in with "local alerts" that are 99% of the time NOTHING but alarmism they use to try to promote THEIR local news, weather & sometimes even SPORTS team being the most "ON TOP" of things! They CONTINUALLY run weather warnings over the screen for anything and everything -- also break in during the middle of the show with actual LIVE broadcasts from their studios to update you where the latest thunderstorm is -- in addition to all the stuff that's been running along the screen -- in addition to periodic LOUD ALARMS which disable the volume of the program while they BLARE prior to the LARGER warning that runs across the screen -- often for just a WATCH! I'm fed up with it! And of course there's almost ALWAYS some SPONSOR'S LOGO involved!

We have a WEATHER RADIO. When we need an alert, we'll get one! If DirecTV has Direct Network feeds (and nobody else does), THAT ALONE will sell me their service!
Jeff

Does this mean that you can get DIRECT network feeds in ADDITION to getting your local network channels?
They're not direct network feeds, they're just feeds from the affiliates in New York and Los Angeles. And no, if DirecTV carries your local channels, you cannot get the DNS (Distant Network Service) channels.

Almost makes me wish I lived in "the boonies" where there WAS no local channel access (that 6% of America that's WAYYYYYYY OUT THERE), Jeremy! As for those LA and New York channels, you DO still get those, along with your local channles, don't you? I'd be happy with just that, if I could watch "Lost," for instance, on the ABC affiliate in New York and NOT have to put up with all the local "advisories."
Jeff

As for those LA and New York channels, you DO still get those, along with your local channles, don't you?
No, those are the DNS channels. It's against the law for DirecTV to provide them to you if they have your locals.

No, those are the DNS channels. It's against the law for DirecTV to provide them to you if they have your locals.

That REALLY toasts my buns! Viewers should have the CHOICE of whether to watch network programming via their local "network affiliate" or via direct Network feed -- ESPECIALLY if they're having to pay an EXTRA FEE for the network programming either way -- and PARTICULARLY when "network affiliates" take the view that they can carry or NOT carry network programming "at their pleasure" and break in with something else AT ANY TIME or REFUSE to carry a particular episode of a series if they feel it violates their local moral codes (as many ABC affiliates did with some early episodes of NYPD Blue) -- or just totally pre-empt network programming with some local basketball game, like my ABC affiliate does every winter/spring.

I'll make the case that I CAN'T get the local channels with a TV antenna (really CAN'T very well, because I'm at the bottom of a hill), and I'd prefer the alternative... I think it's time some of us start a grass-roots effort to get the FCC to change that law -- especially when the local channels got that put in place and then, on top of everything else -- FORCING viewers to watch them -- also FORCE the cable companies and satellite companies to PAY to carry their signals!

It's downright extortion! :mad:
Jeff

That REALLY toasts my buns! Viewers should have the CHOICE of whether to watch network programming via their local "network affiliate" or via direct Network feed -- ESPECIALLY if they're having to pay an EXTRA FEE for the network programming either way -- and PARTICULARLY when "network affiliates" take the view that they can carry or NOT carry network programming "at their pleasure" and break in with something else AT ANY TIME or REFUSE to carry a particular episode of a series if they feel it violates their local moral codes (as many ABC affiliates did with some early episodes of NYPD Blue) -- or just totally pre-empt network programming with some local basketball game, like my ABC affiliate does every winter/spring.Local stations pay for exclusive programming rights in your area. They legally have the right to air what ever they want.

I'll make the case that I CAN'T get the local channels with a TV antenna (really CAN'T very well, because I'm at the bottom of a hill), and I'd prefer the alternative...Don't waste your time. Neither DirecTV or Dish will provide you with out of market locals.

Local stations pay for exclusive programming rights in your area. They legally have the right to air what ever they want.


Don't waste your time. Neither DirecTV or Dish will provide you with out of market locals.

But THERE'S the rub, Ken. Yes they DO pay the FCC a licensing fee for the right for their local "airspace" and I'll agree that gives them "the right" to air whatever they want. But IF they also AGREE to be the local NETWORK AFFILIATE and thus the local viewers' SOLE SOURCE of programming for those network programs, then by choosing to NOT run certain programs or to PRE-EMPT them at will because they think some viewers may prefer to watch something else or because they ALSO are affilliated with some rinky-dink area "sports network," like my local ABC affiliate does, seems to be in violation of their implied contract to their both their viewers as a network affiliate and to the network with which they're affiliated... And if a Satellite TV viewer is going to be forced to pay for network TV either way, they should HAVE A CHOICE. If current law doesn't allow that choice, we should petition the FCC and/or Congress to CHANGE THAT LAW... Maybe, at the least, even if the FCC didn't change the law, the local affiliates would TAKE NOTICE and become more responsive to local viewers' wishes.

I guess the addition of things like Hulu AND shows available at most network websites will alleviate much of this issue, finally and thankfully -- although we'll still have to wait up to 8 days, in many cases, to see the new show online.
Jeff

But THERE'S the rub, Ken. Yes they DO pay the FCC a licensing fee for the right for their local "airspace" and I'll agree that gives them "the right" to air whatever they want.You're confused.

Local stations have an affiliate agreement with the network. They pay the network for the exclusive rights for the programing, but are under no obligation to air it.

Either way, Ken, my PRIMARY REASON for watching a particular station 95% of the time is to see the NETWORK programming that's on it (I think that's true for a great many other people, too), and if that station is my SOLE SOURCE of network programming and they have a LEGAL MONOPOLY on that programming, then as far as I'm concerned, no matter WHICH WAY the payment goes and who's obligated to whom, legally, from a BUSINESS standpoint, the station is obligated to the VIEWER (and BY LAW, I KNOW FOR A FACT, the FCC MANDATE is that ALL broadcasters are mandated to broadcast "in the public interest"), SO, if they have a LEGAL MONOPOLY on network feeds for my area, yet REFUSE to carry some of those feeds, then as far as I'm concerned they're violating their FCC mandate.

At least that's the case I'd make if it came down to it. Probably the ONLY THING that will keep me from trying to get a grass-roots effort going to get a petition before the FCC is the fact that most network programs CAN now be viewed online, because I'm pretty fed up with the BS the local stations pull, and have been for A LONG TIME!

As I said, I don't care WHAT their "legal rights are," their FCC mandate is to "broadcast in the public interest," and if they have a LEGAL MONOPOLY on network programming, refusing to carry that, and/or pre-empting it whenever they wish violates that mandate!
Jeff

the station is obligated to the VIEWER (and BY LAW, I KNOW FOR A FACT, the FCC MANDATE is that ALL broadcasters are mandated to broadcast "in the public interest"), SO, if they have a LEGAL MONOPOLY on network feeds for my area, yet REFUSE to carry some of those feeds, then as far as I'm concerned they're violating their FCC mandate.
The station would argue that they're acting in the public interest by showing local programming instead of network programming, and the FCC would agree. You obviously don't like it, but don't try and make the argument that the station is violating any laws, codes, or mandates. They're not.

I've had D* for over a year in Houston and I've had minimal problems with weather outages. I'm not home watching tv all the time, but I notice problems with the picture going out maybe once every 2 or 3 months or so during a severe storm. Normal rainfall doesn't cause me any problems. The radar basically has to be red and right over my house or just to the south to cause a problem and 90% of the time i've lost a signal, it has been for just a couple minutes. I lost power during after hurricane ike for 15 days, but as soon as I got a generator and plugged in my box and tv, everything was working normally so my dish survived the hurricane with no issues. I know people that had Comcast cable that didn't get their cable service restored for more than 2 weeks after the storm.

I'm one of those unhappy soon to be ex-Comcast subscribers. Here in W. KY it's been 24 days since our ice storm. I'm still not getting any of my digital channels, thus no HD, or premiums, and no On-Demand. And the analogs we do get are "rolling" and terrible quality. Multiple phone calls have been fruitless. So I ordered Direct 6 days ago. They are so busy in my area that I can't get an install until Mar 9. My in-laws have the same TV as mine and DirecTV service. Their picture blows mine away (even when our service was working perfectly).

You can take this for what it's worth. I had D* for 7 years and switched to E* because I just wanted to give them a try. Got the VIP722 and there complete HD programing. I switched back to D* a month and a half ago. During the switch, I left E* dish up. From D* I got HR23-700 and Slimline 3 LNB. Using one HDMI cable, I went from E* to D*. On my TV (Sammy LN52a550), D* had the better PQ for HD and surprisingly a lot better SD PQ as well. E* is gone and D* is on. Plus, once my 1 year promo is over with, I will still be paying less with D*.

Oz Man, I just read many of the threads again as I still ponder the whole Directv vs Dish dilemna and noticed that the comments about your post were mostly about cost. But your reply also cuts straight to the heart of what concerns me. PQ. Of course cost is a factor but I think a 60" set, as I said before, may show more weaknesses in any given signal than a smaller set, etc.

So can you tell me how big of a difference the picture quality is on your 55" Sammy? Would the picture quality be in and of itself enough of a reason to choose Directv over Dish? Is there anything you miss about Dish Network?
Finally, (sounds so interrogation like! :D ) how would you rate the picture quality of both Dish and Directv....for both SD and HD....on a scale of 1 to 10?

Thanks!

Personally, I think it's a futile effort to try to nail down definitively who has the best PQ. It's not constant. With cable, it varies by location, and with ALL of them, things are always changing. For a while, Comcast was king, followed by Dish then DirecTV. Now the race seems to be a bit closer, with many considering DirecTV to be better than Dish, with Comcast varying by location. If you go with satellite, things could be completely different by the time your contract is up. Verizon is generally considered best due to their bandwidth advantage, but it's not available everywhere. And you can't compare DirecTV vs. Dish on "channels per transponder". They use different technologies. The bandwidth available per transponder is different.

If you try to compare content, that will also change over time. DirecTV is currently best for sports nuts, while Dish is better for movies. But if you're concerned with PQ, you're much better off not buying any movie channels and getting renting Blu-rays. NO provider can begin to compete with that. Quibbling over PQ differences between different providers seems laughable when you consider how minor the differences are relative to the differences between all of them and Blu-ray.

The hardware is going to be another variable... personally, I think DirecTV's lead in this area has vaporized since switching to their in-house DVRs. They continue to have a lot of glitches with them. I can't comment on Dish or Comcast, perhaps they are just as bad.

So there's no clear answer. Really, you're left picking the least of the evils. Nothing is going to beat good OTA reception and Netflix or BB for value and PQ.

You make an EXCELLENT POINT, Darin! If it wasn't for the original programming on HBO, Showtime -- and now even some on Cinemax and Starz, I'm thinking I'd just drop ANY carrier whatsoever and stick with the internet for my TV needs (you can't really get most of the stuff the premiums carry online, as far as I know).

You CAN get almost ALL of the regular TV programs -- MANY in HD -- either at the network websites or at Hulu.com, some the same night they broadcast and ALL within 8 days... And if you want GOBS of movies at at LEAST 720P (and have decent broadband), for $30/month you can get 500 GB of downloads per month from Graboid, which has EVERYTHING that's out on DVD and/or Blu-Ray (some is available at 1080P, but most is in 720P) -- HOWEVER, they use the .MKV encryption method, which allows them to send you an entire 720P 90-minute movie at an average size of only 4.5 GB, which, with a 10 Mbps broadband connection, like I have, takes just a bit more than an hour... Then it takes a few minutes of processing time to assemble on MY end (it comes in like 1-minute chunks, which are put together into the .MKV packet), and it's generally ready in less than 90 minutes...

I'm using a 2.5-year old Dell XPS 410 with a 2.4 Ghz E6600 Core 2 duo processor. I upgraded my 4 GB of RAM (not all is accessible with 32-bit Windoze, but enough is) to PC 6400, upgraded to a 512 MB Nvidia 9800 GT card, and upgraded the 375-watt stock power supply to a 500-watt Antec to be able to do all this well, and it all works VERY WELL. When you subscribe to Graboid, they supply you with a player to play their files, as the .MKV format WON'T play on most players. It's called VLC Media Player, and it does a stellar job with not only THEIR files, but also with any .WMV files and others, if you choose to play them on it -- and it's FREE.

Try as I might, after ALMOST a month (first 4GB were free, by the way, but you can get only DVD quality on the free membership -- only 800 MB for a DVD-quality movie, by the way), I was still 180 GB shy of using my whole 500 GB, so I decided to PUSH my system and put A BUNCH of movies in the DOWNLOAD QUE and watch while downloading... The last couple of days before my 30 ran out (I did this over the Christmas Holidays when most of TV was re-runs), my modem was in STEADY, FULL 10Mbps download mode, yet I was still watching movies at the same time, and I came only about 50 GB shy of using it all (next time I'll use it all). I just did the one month, and STILL have lots of movies I haven't gotten to since the TV schedule filled back up... I'll subscribe again for a month when TV gets slow again in the summer, lol.

I figure it this way... With the average HD movie download being slightly less than 5 GB, and 500 GB being $30, and me being able to SAVE downloaded movies as long as I wish, that's just 30 CENTS per HD movie! Try getting that kind of deal from Netflix, Blockbuster or ANYBODY ELSE!
Jeff

they use the .MKV encryption method, which allows them to send you an entire 720P 90-minute movie at an average size of only 4.5 GB ... Try getting that kind of deal from Netflix, Blockbuster or ANYBODY ELSE!


Yes, downloadable HD content is becoming a viable source. But just one point of clarification... mkv is just a container, the contents within it are typically compressed with the same codecs that are used in other delivery methods, like Blu-ray. So mkv doesn't make it more efficient... smaller sizes are due to more compression. What you describe may be cheaper than renting Blu-rays from Netflix or Blockbuster, but it's not the same quality, since typical Blu-rays range from 20-45GB. But it's probably comparable to what you get off satellite or cable, and definitely a much better value.

Oz Man, I just read many of the threads again as I still ponder the whole Directv vs Dish dilemna and noticed that the comments about your post were mostly about cost. But your reply also cuts straight to the heart of what concerns me. PQ. Of course cost is a factor but I think a 60" set, as I said before, may show more weaknesses in any given signal than a smaller set, etc.

So can you tell me how big of a difference the picture quality is on your 55" Sammy? Would the picture quality be in and of itself enough of a reason to choose Directv over Dish? Is there anything you miss about Dish Network?
Finally, (sounds so interrogation like! :D ) how would you rate the picture quality of both Dish and Directv....for both SD and HD....on a scale of 1 to 10?

Thanks!

IMO, Dish 7, Direct 9. You know that you are getting a good HD picture when sometimes you wish you did not have HD. I really good HD picture can make the ugly, down right ugly.

Personally, I think it's a futile effort to try to nail down definitively who has the best PQ. It's not constant. With cable, it varies by location, and with ALL of them, things are always changing. For a while, Comcast was king, followed by Dish then DirecTV. Now the race seems to be a bit closer, with many considering DirecTV to be better than Dish, with Comcast varying by location. If you go with satellite, things could be completely different by the time your contract is up. Verizon is generally considered best due to their bandwidth advantage, but it's not available everywhere. And you can't compare DirecTV vs. Dish on "channels per transponder". They use different technologies. The bandwidth available per transponder is different.

If you try to compare content, that will also change over time. DirecTV is currently best for sports nuts, while Dish is better for movies. But if you're concerned with PQ, you're much better off not buying any movie channels and getting renting Blu-rays. NO provider can begin to compete with that. Quibbling over PQ differences between different providers seems laughable when you consider how minor the differences are relative to the differences between all of them and Blu-ray.

The hardware is going to be another variable... personally, I think DirecTV's lead in this area has vaporized since switching to their in-house DVRs. They continue to have a lot of glitches with them. I can't comment on Dish or Comcast, perhaps they are just as bad.

So there's no clear answer. Really, you're left picking the least of the evils. Nothing is going to beat good OTA reception and Netflix or BB for value and PQ.

I will agree to a point. In different areas, the PQ can be different with who you go with. The cabling in your house if old is being used can make a PQ difference. Cables that the cable co. use if not upgraded can make a PQ difference. With Sat. it is how you are receiving your signal. Who is compressing it the most? Who has the better LNB for retreiving the signal. And last of all, how have you got your TV set up? I personally set up my TV that the HD is so clear, I can pick up a hair on a nats -ss. D* PQ on MY set up has a lot better PQ than E* had on my set up. Also another factor in PQ is the software in the receivers and how it projects the picture. My D* PQ is almost as good as my Blu-Ray PQ. All depends on EQUIPMENT and how you are using it, and yes, E*, D*, and cable all use different equipment so there is going to be a difference in the PQ.

The cabling in your house if old is being used can make a PQ difference. Cables that the cable co. use if not upgraded can make a PQ difference.
Since we're talking about HD, that's not really true. Cabling and LNBs can affect the robustness of a digital signal, but not really the PQ. As long as the signal is good enough, it should look just like what they sent you. It's what they send you that is in question (mostly, how, and how much they compress it).

My D* PQ is almost as good as my Blu-Ray PQ. All depends on EQUIPMENT and how you are using it
True, I have a 42" 768p plasma, and a 46" 1080i CRT, and on those, the difference is not as dramatic. But on the 73" DLP, the difference is much more obvious. But even though the difference in detail is lost on the smaller sets, the difference in artifacting is not. I can see macroblocking on all of them with DirecTV, and even OTA. I can't say that I've ever noticed it on Blu-ray or HD-DVD. Live encoding at a small bandwidth just can't compete with multi-pass encoding at a much higher bandwidth.

With the average HD movie download being slightly less than 5 GB, and 500 GB being $30, and me being able to SAVE downloaded movies as long as I wish, that's just 30 CENTS per HD movie! Try getting that kind of deal from Netflix, Blockbuster or ANYBODY ELSE!
That's because you're stealing the movies. Netflix and Blockbuster are legal services, that's why they cost more.

That's because you're stealing the movies. Netflix and Blockbuster are legal services, that's why they cost more.

Dang Jeremy...you really are like the Simon Cowell of this thread aren't you? LOL

Some really interesting stuff being said here. I mostly watch the locals, dvds...but will switch to blu ray...and then sometimes other channels like Comedy Central, BBC, HGTV, Fox News...and then even more occasionally watch another channel for a movie...like AMC, Bravo, etc. When impatient we will watch PPV via Dish.

Otherwise, I use Netflix and am quite pleased with them. I go to imdb.com and look at the box office releases, including archives, and compile a list of movies based on star ratings and interest...and then load up my queue and watch em as they come. I especially like watching tv series that we would otherwise miss. We've watched all Sopranos episodes, Rome, Dexter, The Wire, Deadwood and Six Feet Under this way. My wife and I don't bother with premium channels because we put our money to Netflix. We can pretty much get everything we want whether it be tv or movie via Netflix.

I will be sure to look at some of the sites mentioned here in this thread...very interesting. And I would like to throw another one out....looks mighty intriguing...vudu.com . Every hear of it? I went to their site and it's very interesting.

I gather Directv does indeed make the signal better. I appreciate the comment about it not being as noticeably better as satellite is from cable. Given that we might just see our locals via OTA...and use VOD or Bluray...it might not matter so much if we stay with Dish. Still tough. Really guys...I just really like the DVR I have now...and think the HD version VIP722 will be even better. It's a toss up. Since I've already turned down two tvs delivered with cracked screens...and wait on the third...I still have time to decide! :D

That's because you're stealing the movies. Netflix and Blockbuster are legal services, that's why they cost more.

Yaknow, Jeremy, it's not very nice to accuse someone of being a thief -- in fact it's in print it can be considered libel and legally actionable, although I wouldn't stoop to sue you. However, I AM NOT A THIEF, and I don't appreciate the accusation!

Prior to subscribing to Graboid.com I THOROUGHLY checked out the service! I first found them through an advertising link at IMDB.com. I HARDLY THINK a site as legitimate as IMDB.com would have a REGULAR ADVERTISING LINK with Graboid.com if they were an ILLEGAL website!

Furthermore, for every movie offered at Graboid there is a "more information" link, and for 95% of those movies when you click that link it takes you DIRECTLY TO IMDB.com.

FURTHERMORE, to be CERTAIN it wasn't JUST IMDB.com, I GOOGLED them to see what OTHERS had to say about them, and they had 4 or 5 stars from CNET.com, as well!

I'm not sure HOW they do it or WHY brand new movies that JUST became available on Blu-Ray are available there (and in some cases, movies that haven't even hit the theaters yet -- I saw "Taken" in December, and it just hit the theaters this month), but THEY ARE. Graboid claims to be completely legal, and CERTAINLY with their business partnerships and ratings from people like CNET, if they weren't they would have been SHUT DOWN by now!

As for quality, although I have installed a Blu-Ray player installed in my computer, I haven't really used it yet. But I will say the quality is BETTER than what I generally get on HD movies via cable, and the sound is FAR better!
Jeff

Prior to subscribing to Graboid.com I THOROUGHLY checked out the service! I first found them through an advertising link at IMDB.com. I HARDLY THINK a site as legitimate as IMDB.com would have a REGULAR ADVERTISING LINK with Graboid.com if they were an ILLEGAL website!

Furthermore, for every movie offered at Graboid there is a "more information" link, and for 95% of those movies when you click that link it takes you DIRECTLY TO IMDB.com.

FURTHERMORE, to be CERTAIN it wasn't JUST IMDB.com, I GOOGLED them to see what OTHERS had to say about them, and they had 4 or 5 stars from CNET.com, as well!

I'm not sure HOW they do it or WHY brand new movies that JUST became available on Blu-Ray are available there (and in some cases, movies that haven't even hit the theaters yet -- I saw "Taken" in December, and it just hit the theaters this month), but THEY ARE. Graboid claims to be completely legal, and CERTAINLY with their business partnerships and ratings from people like CNET, if they weren't they would have been SHUT DOWN by now!Not necesaarly.

From graboid.com:
Graboid does not host any content. We only provide links to internet video sources that comply with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA).In other words, as far as they know none of the links are illegal. That does not mean the links are legal sources of programming, or that you aren't doing something illegal by downloading even if they aren't.

Think about it. How long did Napster stay in business before being legally forced to changed their business model? And it was illegal all along.

Ahem, the key phrase being "sources that comply with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act," meaning that their sources are in COMPLIANCE with federal law.

Furthermore, if you look further into their Q & A section, they CATEGORICALLY STATE that everything about their site and USING their site is COMPLETELY LEGAL!

And FINALLY, after all the Napster debacle and everything that's come since, do you REALLY THINK such a site would last more than A WEEK if it WASN'T legal? I mean, they had "The Dark Knight" the DAY it was available on DVD and Blu-Ray... same with "Iron Man" and every other major blockbuster of 2008. Again, I don't know how or why, but they did. These people aren't trying to hide... they advertise, publicly. I see NOBODY trying to shut them down.

I NEVER used Napster, I've never done file-sharing, and in fact haven't shared anything I've downloaded via Graboid, either... THAT would be video piracy. I'm NOT a thief (which is WHY I got so upset with Jeremy's suggestion that I am, and WHY I haven't edited my post above -- yet). I don't do that... Never have; never will. I'm a writer, myself, and very aware of the importance of copyright. But when I pay for Graboid, well, I've paid for the content, just not as much... Frankly, I end up watching a bunch of movies I wouldn't have watched otherwise, anyway, so I probably end up actually only really paying for the few I would have paid for, anyway.
Jeff

"Sources that comply with the DMCA" sounds like code for "sources that aren't in the US and therefore don't have to follow US laws like the DMCA". The Graboid site itself isn't based in the US either, so the same argument works with them. FWIW, a quick search reveals that Graboid is simply a newsreader pointed at a commercial Usenet provider, so while you might be paying someone for that content, it isn't the copyright holder, and all that content you downloaded infringed on copyright. I don't think anyone here is accusing you of knowingly and intentionally infringing on copyright, but infringement certainly did take place.

That's because you're stealing the movies. Netflix and Blockbuster are legal services, that's why they cost more.

While you may well be right, Coyoteaz, and the things you and Ken have posted may cause me to rethink resubscribing to Graboid in the future, the fact remains that what I have quoted above is, unequivocably, an accusation, saying I was "stealing movies," and I didn't and don't appreciate it. I thought about redacting and/or retracting my response, but I won't until I get an apology or redaction/retraction from Jeremy. An accusation of that sort is no small matter to me.
Jeff

what I have quoted above is, unequivocably, an accusation, saying I was "stealing movies,"
And I'm sticking by it. If you don't consider downloading movies without the copyright holders being compensated to be stealing, that's fine. But they're not getting a dime, so I do consider it stealing.
I thought about redacting and/or retracting my response, but I won't until I get an apology or redaction/retraction from Jeremy.
You're not getting anything from me, and honestly your response doesn't bother me in the slightest. So feel free to leave it alone.

Hasn't this gotten a bit OT?

Okay...in addition to PQ...has anyone had experience with an HD Dish install? I have heard that you may need two physical dishes...is this true? If so, this would be another check in the Directv column because my impression is that Directv requires only one dish be installed.

Thanks!

To hopefully bring us back on topic -

Dish was installed last night. I can honestly say the quality in HD & SD is significant. Our comcast signal seemed EXTREMLY compressed, almost as if watching a youtube video full screen.. not quite that bad but you get the idea. HD was not much better as far as compression artifac

Compared to what I remember of DirecTv from a few weeks ago, it definately is not as detailed - if I look close enough I can see some artifacts of compression. I only really looked at DiscoveryHD last night for comparison.

My girlfriend could not tell the difference between DirecTv & Dish, but again, she noticed the difference between Comcast and Dish/DirecTv right away which is saying a lot as she doesn't really care about these things...

In the end, the signal on Dish is worth the price of admision. If you like the programming pkg you can get with Dish vs DirecTv for the money, I'd say Take Dish. That said, I think if DirecTv could have fixed my technical issues that caused me to switch in the first place, I'd be a little happier overall with them as they have a working remote DVR record system in place that works from pretty much any browser, and their DVR continues to record current channel even if you turn it off...which is great for those moments when you come in the house, turn the TV on and see somthing your interested in and want to rewind to catch whatever happend before that! Seems like such simple features, yet Dish is behind on this front!!!

^^^ Yes, and thanks! But one or two dishes?

And another question: Can Dish (or D* for that matter) be instaled in sucha way as to be able to using existing cable wiring (whole house)? Or is it necessary to rewire from scratch?

Thanks!

^^^ Yes, and thanks! But one or two dishes?

And another question: Can Dish (or D* for that matter) be instaled in sucha way as to be able to using existing cable wiring (whole house)? Or is it necessary to rewire from scratch?

Thanks!
They usualy rewire you since house wiring can be older RG59 - not HD compatable.

I don't know what dish arrangement Dish Network uses. D* uses one.

BDCat,

From what I understand, if your house already has RG6 cabling you are good to go, anything other than that will have to be re wired.

BDCat,

From what I understand, if your house already has RG6 cabling you are good to go, anything other than that will have to be re wired.
In order to do that you'd need essentially the "perfect storm" of wiring:

- It's all good RG6 with no damaged connections and hasn't been stapled inside the walls or some other foolishness.
- It has to go somewhere where it can get to the dish outside.
- There has to be enough lines for the type of receiver (i.e. - 2 lines for a DVR location).

Trust me, it's almost certain they'll be running wires.

I time-shift almost 100% of my viewing via the DVR. I have Comcast with SA8300HD DVR with an external drive. From what I've read here, D* and E* have a very poor implementation of an external drive. On the 8300HD the placement and handling of recordings on the external drive are transparent to the user, both drives are used and no addiitonal work is needed to record (in my case) up to 460GB of data. That's not to say the overall DVR is better than E*'s, just this one, albeit major, difference.

Now both E* and D* (and FIOS of course) offer 30 or more extra HD channels than Comcast, so on that there is no comparison. If I did go satellite I guess I would have to go to D* because of MLB EI.

Rich N.

I time-shift almost 100% of my viewing via the DVR. I have Comcast with SA8300HD DVR with an external drive. From what I've read here, D* and E* have a very poor implementation of an external drive.
It's not "poor" (it works fine) so much as "wasteful" in that it doesn't use the space available on the internal drive. A better implementation would be to (at the very least) allow an external drive to act as an "archive" you could save long term recordings to. A better case is using both for recording. Best case would be actually having a removable bay drive that the user could swap out.

On the 8300HD the placement and handling of recordings on the external drive are transparent to the user, both drives are used and no addiitonal work is needed to record (in my case) up to 460GB of data. That's not to say the overall DVR is better than E*'s, just this one, albeit major, difference.
If it does work that way, that is better.

However, I would actually go further and say both E* and D*'s DVRs are better than anything Comcast has. E* beats D*, but the Comcast DVR blows. I'll give Comcast props for attempting TiVo in some areas, but even that leaves something to be desired on their hardware.

Plus, D* is getting back into the TiVo game themselves by year's end.

Now both E* and D* (and FIOS of course) offer 30 or more extra HD channels than Comcast, so on that there is no comparison. If I did go satellite I guess I would have to go to D* because of MLB EI.
...and for picture quality.

While E* might have a better DVR and cheaper HD packages, the D* DVR is getting much better and their picture quality is currently better. FIOS is limited to too few areas to be a solution for most.

However, 6 months later could produce much different results among all the providers.

^^^ Yes, and thanks! But one or two dishes?

And another question: Can Dish (or D* for that matter) be instaled in sucha way as to be able to using existing cable wiring (whole house)? Or is it necessary to rewire from scratch?

Thanks!

They usualy rewire you since house wiring can be older RG59 - not HD compatable.

I don't know what dish arrangement Dish Network uses. D* uses one.

I just went from E* back to D* a little over a month ago. My whole house is RG59. The only RG6 I have is what was installed from the LNB to the box out side. I posted the same question on our sister site (DBS) and everyone agreed that the RG59 would be fine. If you have runs of over 100', then you may need to replace any RG59 cabling. If your cable wire runs are less than 100', you should be fine, but I would limit it to no more than 50'. All my RG59 runs are less than40' and I have no issues with HD what so ever. And yes, RG59 is compatable with HD. They recommend using RG6, but even the installer said that it would not make a difference in PQ with short runs of RG59.

Is it possible (Yes, I know I would be voiding the warrenty) to simply open up the Dish Network DVR's and replace the hard drive with a higher capacity unit? I thought I had read in the past this was possible with DirecTv but can find no mention of doing such a thing on any search that I run.

At this point, I think I actually liked DirecTv's dvr better simply because of the *feature* I mentioned earlier - it records last channel watched even after you turn it off... the fact that the Dish 612 doesn't (Or maybe I just havent been able to figure out how to do it) is really starting to bug me. I also liked the way Direct had their channels laid out but I guess that isn't specific to the DVR.

I haven't setup the external hard disk with the Dish box yet but wow, if it works like you guys say and just bypasses the internal disk - wow, that makes no sense, why waste the space?!?!

Is it possible (Yes, I know I would be voiding the warrenty) to simply open up the Dish Network DVR's and replace the hard drive with a higher capacity unit? I thought I had read in the past this was possible with DirecTv but can find no mention of doing such a thing on any search that I run.
I really don't know.

In regards to D*, in theory, as long as you have the service, D* would never know what you did if you didn't tell them - unless there is one of those foil stickers on the back that shreds apart - sometimes they don't have them. Even if you eventually returned the unit down the road, just put the old drive back in. Now, I'm not endorsing it and don't blame me if they do get mad... ;)

At this point, I think I actually liked DirecTv's dvr better simply because of the *feature* I mentioned earlier - it records last channel watched even after you turn it off... the fact that the Dish 612 doesn't (Or maybe I just havent been able to figure out how to do it) is really starting to bug me. I also liked the way Direct had their channels laid out but I guess that isn't specific to the DVR.
In my case, I hate how it deals with recordings:

- It's too many clicks to get to the To Do list.
- It would be nice if, after stopping a recording or deleting it, it went to a blank screen with choices to either watch Live TV or go to the recordings list. I hate when I stop a recording late at night and suddenly the last channel it used to record comes blasting out at me.
- If I stop a recording and go watch live TV, I'd like it if, when I go back to the List, it would park itself highlighting the last show I was watching. Then I could just hit play again to continue. Instead, if it's 12 listings down inside a folder of 6 shows, I have to scroll, click, scroll, click. I really liked the UTV implementation where the records had their own "channel" - 1020 or something like that. To go back to what recording you were in the middle of, you just typed in that channel and hit play.
- In the To Do list, there's a big blank spot above the listings. Instead of putting the program descriptions there as you highlight, it has a foolish "These shows are scheduled to record. Press select to view more information" message there. Why put that message there and make me do an extra click? Just show the program details!
- Of course, I'm going to complain about the inability to set up an automatic recording based on title for things not currently in the guide until they add that feature. I should be able to set up to record a show that is coming up a few months down the road without using a keyword search - which may yield more results than that one show.

I haven't setup the external hard disk with the Dish box yet but wow, if it works like you guys say and just bypasses the internal disk - wow, that makes no sense, why waste the space?!?!
I think the OS only can respond to one drive. It's probably a way to cut down on system hardware overhead.

I think the OS only can respond to one drive. It's probably a way to cut down on system hardware overhead.

I'm not really clear if Califlove's post is talking about the Dish box or DirecTV, but if it's DirecTV, we have to remember that an eSATA drive on a DirecTV DVR is an unsupported feature. It essentially works like a toggle... if it recognizes a drive in the eSATA port, it will use that one. If not, it will use the internal drive. If you boot on one drive, power down, then boot on the other, each drive should be as it was the last time you used that drive. They aren't really dual-drive aware, it's only using one at a time. The one that it recognized first when it booted, with preference for the external drive if they are both recognizable at boot.

On the direct receiver the external drive will take over for the internal, it effectively replaces it.
On dish the external is in addition to the internal. You can manual transfer shows from the internal drive to the external if you need more storage.

I just came back to dish after being gone for 6 months and couldn't be happier. I made sure I got the VIP722 receiver though i'm only hooking up 1 TV. I also have OTA HD and the picture quality is indistingusable between that and dish. And it doesn't get better than OTA. I'm also watching it on a 119" screen from my projector.

They also have their service to remotely schedule recordings on the DVR and it's perfectly formatted for the iphone too. And when thier sling enabled 922 receiver comes out you'll be able to watch DVR'd programs or even live tv remotely, from your reciever, on your iphone.

They also have their service to remotely schedule recordings on the DVR and it's perfectly formatted for the iphone too.
So does DirecTV.

On the direct receiver the external drive will take over for the internal, it effectively replaces it.
On dish the external is in addition to the internal. You can manual transfer shows from the internal drive to the external if you need more storage.

I was refering to the Dish DVR as I understood that an external drive would simply take over for the internal, if in fact you can move data between the two...that is great! Maybe I mis read a previous post, as the whole E* and D* thing gets me confused!

They also have their service to remotely schedule recordings on the DVR and it's perfectly formatted for the iphone too. And when thier sling enabled 922 receiver comes out you'll be able to watch DVR'd programs or even live tv remotely, from your reciever, on your iphone.

Archer,
I would be SO happy if you could explain to me how to do the remote DVR on-line scheduling with DISH... I can't figure it out for the life of me.

Cali, yes, you can move data between the internal and external drives on dish. The internal drive is not replaced.

The remote scheduling website is dish.sling.com and it's pretty slick. Still in beta though.
I've seen the direct site for remote scheduling but this puts it to shame.

Thanks Archer... not sure how I would have gotten that one on my own.

New problem though, apparently it only works with 622 & 722 DVR's... I have 2 612's... I tried to set it up anyway, but the site says it cant find my DVR on-line.... Strange thing, the Receiver ID shown in the menu screen is different than the Receiver ID shown on my online equipment page as well as even on the back of the physical device.

CalifLove, you might want to get that resolved, so Dish doesn't audit you and start shutting stuff off.

I know this thread is about Comcast and the two sat providers. However, U-verse and FIOS destroy everyone when it comes to channel availability. Dish and D* can harp RSN's and PPV's all they want. However, the telcos definitely win on channel quantity. Here in Austin, D* wins on PQ over TWC, Dish and U-verse. However, U-verse stomps everyone but FIOS in terms of HD channel count. It's already been proven that quantity rules. Too bad U-verse doesn't allow me to record more than two HD sources at once. Otherwise, I'd leave Dish in a heartbeat.

It's already been proven that quantity rules.
Really? When was this proven?

Really? When was this proven?

When Comcast stopped trying to compete with DirectTV on PQ and started jamming multiple channels (more than 2) in on the same QAM that's when.

BTW, Dish's DVR's and external hard drive solutions are pretty much the best in the industry other than the fact that they use USB and not Firewire. One can use unlimited external disks for unlimited archiving. Believe me--I have a 1.5TB external drive and a 500GB external drive that I routinely connect to my VIP622. The internal drive of the 622 isn't wasted, either.

Dish's problem is lack of HD channels compared to the telcos and bandwidth/satellite capacity (HD-lite) not set top technology. Dish/Echostar have(has) been at the top of the set top game for years.

So, allargon, if your current situation is a couple of 720P HD sets and a great love for time-shifting and liking to also record to external HDs (I currently have 8 external HD hooked up to my computer, lol -- two eSata, 4 USB and 2 firewire -- my computer monitor IS 1080P capable, but that's the only thing), do you think DISH is the better choice in my case, with my needs?
Jeff

When I started with Dish, I had the promo pricing for six months. Was paying $59. After that, this is how it broke down.
America's choice 250 W/DVR = $49
HD Program = $30 (Good Greif)
Locals = $5
PP = $6
Alternate HD Programing = $10
Lease fee $10
Total w/o State Tax = $110 I was paying monthly.

DirecTv after promo
Choice Extra HD/DVR = $73 Includes Locals & HD
Extra HD Pack = $5
Lease fee = $5
PP = $6
Sports Pack = $12 (Not available with E*)
Total after Promo = $101 Plus State Tax.

Bottom line is I get more HD and HD is cheaper and the sports pack and will still be paying less than E*.:)

Where are you getting this 30 buck hd fee for e*?

also what box are you saying is ten a month?

I think you are mistaken my friend

Where are you getting this 30 buck hd fee for e*?

also what box are you saying is ten a month?

I think you are mistaken my friend

I believe he was using the old system before TurboHD

I also read a few pages back, and E* is the ABSOLUTE WORST provider for SD channels. They are barely above the quality of YouTube now. That might be a little exaggeration, but during the NBA League Pass free promo, I could not stand to watch the games in SD. I had seen mixes and highlights on Youtube that were higher quality(some were even made with footage from the 90s and early 2000s)

When Comcast stopped trying to compete with DirectTV on PQ and started jamming multiple channels (more than 2) in on the same QAM that's when.
That proves that Comcast decided that they'd rather compete on quantity than quality. But in their last financial statement, DirecTV had record subscriber growth. So I wouldn't say that Comcast has proven anything.

Just read the local Chicago area Comcast thread, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anybody there that cares anything at all about losing quality, as long as they get more quantity.
Just look at Comcast's quarterly statements. Are they signing up record numbers of subscribers?

Threads on here are representative of nothing.

Well after reading most of this thread I figured I would add my 4 cents( I am a bit smarter than 2 cents, LOL)We had D* for more than 8 years when we lived in Northern VA and were very happy with the service. The PQ was most definetly better than the Cox cable service that was offered in the area. When we moved to Massanutten( outside Harrisonburg Va)Adelphia Cable was at house and we decided to keep it for a while while we got settled in, and get D* installed later. Later turned into 3 years. The PQ was fine and the bill wasn't that bad, 127.00 included The Everything (locals,HBO,Stars, etc) Pak and HSI, well Comcast took over and we have watched our bill go from 127.00 to a bit over 200.00 and only a few new HD channels being added(we total around 37) Decided it was time for a change, the best that D* would do after talking to a few different CSR's and a couple Supers was a free install and one HD DVR, well we need 5 so that means I have to pay(lease) for the rest, Oh and they don't have the ability to get OTA with out the OTA module, they will throw in the first for free. Start up cost with D* over 650.00. I called E* for the heck of it, 99.00 for the 5th box, but I get a 50.00 dollar rebate, so 49.00. Well the PQ with E* seems fine on all the HD sets, and I saved 601.00

I have had both, each for many years. I recently returned to DirecTV. Boy am I glad. I should have done so two years ago, especially after what transpired after I discontinued Dish service. Here are just a few reasons DirecTV is superior.
1. DirecTV uses only one roof satellite receiver for local channels. Dish, in areas, requires two dish satellite receivers on the roof to receive local channels. I tried for years, purchasing three TV antennae, to get reliable local TV reception; to no avail. I could not get the Dish second roof top receiver because of my neighbor’s trees.
2. DirecTV includes local channels in their price. You pay extra with Dish.
3. DirecTV HD DVR will record two HD channels at once. Dish records two channels at once, but only one is HD.
4. DirecTV receiver stays on if you leave it on. If the Dish receiver is left on, the picture is replaced in the middle of the night with an annoying Dish logo on the screen. So, if you want to record a Dish recorded program to your VCR or DVD during that period, your program is replaced with the Dish logo.
5. DirecTV has at least two weeks of programming information on their system. Dish programming is limited to one week.
6. DirecTV DVR has output options for HDMI, component and two analog AV outputs that operate simultaneously. Dish has HDMI, component and one analog.
7. Dish has a policy, as I unfortunately discovered, that destroys your personal property if you mistakenly return your expensive DVD/hard drive recorder instead of their receiver. Both were out of my media tower and looked almost the same, and I just hastily grabbed the wrong one. They just destroyed it, without any notification, or giving me any opportunity to even pay for it's return. I noticed their receiver, a week after the mistake, but they had already destroyed my equipment. They have consistently, and adamantly refused to compensate me. Yet, I returned their receiver, or my credit card would have been charged. I have No recourse. I certainly would not trust such a company that treats people this way!

Can anyone back up the things said in either of the previous two posts?

The first one looks fairly accurate, according to what I've seen when "playing with startup configurations" online (although I know terms may change after 6 months, or a year).

The second, well, I really have no way of knowing. Considering that clydeelder JUST joined and this is his/her very first post, I'd say the poster certainly has an axe to grind with DISH (as would I, if all that were true for me -- particularly the destroyed equipment thing). But... here we go again...
Jeff

As I stated in my post above, I was going to go back to D* since we had them for more than 8 years before and had been pleased with thier service. It was the start up cost that turned me away,I don't see why they couldn't have worked with us more. They can look up my old account and see that we were with them for 8 years and probably would have been again. Now E* we have never even contacted before and they give us 4 boxes for free, the 5th for 99.00 with a 50.00 credit (which I have gotten already). You have to go with your gut feeling as to which provider you want, and who offers what you want too watch. I am watching(occasionally) "Perfect Stranger" in HD now and the PQ is great can it be better, I doubt it. I just can't see giving D* over 600.00 just too start the service, if it was something that was returned(the 600) upon complection of the contract and equipment return then maybe.

1. DirecTV uses only one roof satellite receiver for local channels. Dish, in areas, requires two dish satellite receivers on the roof to receive local channels. I tried for years, purchasing three TV antennae, to get reliable local TV reception; to no avail. I could not get the Dish second roof top receiver because of my neighbor’s trees.

I know for a fact this is not true at least for me, there is 1 dish on my place and I get all my locals that broadcast in HD as well as SD. I have the dish 1000.2 I believe - if that makes any difference.

DirecTV HD DVR will record two HD channels at once. Dish records two channels at once, but only one is HD.

Again, not true in my case, I just tested this myself, recorded National Geo HD and HBO HD at same time, stopped recording, both play back in HD - not stretched or anything like that.

4. DirecTV receiver stays on if you leave it on. If the Dish receiver is left on, the picture is replaced in the middle of the night with an annoying Dish logo on the screen. So, if you want to record a Dish recorded program to your VCR or DVD during that period, your program is replaced with the Dish logo.

This does happen and yes, that does suck!

5. DirecTV has at least two weeks of programming information on their system. Dish programming is limited to one week.

I've observed this too.. I liked that I could look that far into the future, however it's not a huge concern..if I could get the stupid online scheduling deal to work with Dish!

I guess the search for the perfect DVR is still on. It seems like all of the companies should be able to figure out the best features of each, put them all into 1 box and sell it! I'm not sure why it is so difficult as the work on figuring out the features has already been done!

I know for a fact this is not true at least for me, there is 1 dish on my place and I get all my locals that broadcast in HD as well as SD. I have the dish 1000.2 I believe


Same here one dish. We had an Eastern Arc install ( for the east coast)with a dish 1000.4 aimed at the 61.5,72,77 satellites

So, allargon, if your current situation is a couple of 720P HD sets and a great love for time-shifting and liking to also record to external HDs (I currently have 8 external HD hooked up to my computer, lol -- two eSata, 4 USB and 2 firewire -- my computer monitor IS 1080P capable, but that's the only thing), do you think DISH is the better choice in my case, with my needs?
Jeff
For 720p, sure. Set your output to 720p on your receivers and many of the low bit-rate compression artifacts will be smoothed away. However, I definitely won't claim that Dish has superior PQ or bitrates. However, they do have the best DVR's. Note that encrypts the contents of their archive external hard drives. MPEG2 HD stuff (rare unless you have OTA or older recordings from before Dish went all MPEG4 for HD) is easily obtainable from the internal HD.

I have had both, each for many years. I recently returned to DirecTV. Boy am I glad. I should have done so two years ago, especially after what transpired after I discontinued Dish service. Here are just a few reasons DirecTV is superior.
1. DirecTV uses only one roof satellite receiver for local channels. Dish, in areas, requires two dish satellite receivers on the roof to receive local channels. I tried for years, purchasing three TV antennae, to get reliable local TV reception; to no avail. I could not get the Dish second roof top receiver because of my neighbor’s trees.
2. DirecTV includes local channels in their price. You pay extra with Dish.
3. DirecTV HD DVR will record two HD channels at once. Dish records two channels at once, but only one is HD.
4. DirecTV receiver stays on if you leave it on. If the Dish receiver is left on, the picture is replaced in the middle of the night with an annoying Dish logo on the screen. So, if you want to record a Dish recorded program to your VCR or DVD during that period, your program is replaced with the Dish logo.
5. DirecTV has at least two weeks of programming information on their system. Dish programming is limited to one week.
6. DirecTV DVR has output options for HDMI, component and two analog AV outputs that operate simultaneously. Dish has HDMI, component and one analog.
7. Dish has a policy, as I unfortunately discovered, that destroys your personal property if you mistakenly return your expensive DVD/hard drive recorder instead of their receiver. Both were out of my media tower and looked almost the same, and I just hastily grabbed the wrong one. They just destroyed it, without any notification, or giving me any opportunity to even pay for it's return. I noticed their receiver, a week after the mistake, but they had already destroyed my equipment. They have consistently, and adamantly refused to compensate me. Yet, I returned their receiver, or my credit card would have been charged. I have No recourse. I certainly would not trust such a company that treats people this way!

For PQ and sports programming, DirectTV is a better service than Dish. I'm definitely no Dish defender as I'm still considering defecting to U-verse.

However...

#1--that depends on the market. That is less true with the Eastern Arc and Ciel-2 coming online. People with international channels often need more than one dish from Direct as well. That's too broad of a generalization to make about either sat co.

#2--no argument there. Although it's not really free--just included in the initial price w/ Direct.

#3--Sorry, that's one hundred percent wrong. I have no idea when you had Dish. However, Dish's 622 and 722 DVR's can record 3 HD programs at once--two from the satellites and one from OTA. I've do this nearly every Sunday night. So, I know it's doable.

#4--Actually, there are options for auto-shut off, timers, etc. even on non-DVR Dish equipment. My 211 has options for programming an external VCR right in the menu system.

#5--yep--no argument there.

#6--Your statements are inaccurate about modern Dish equipment. My 622 has component, HDMI, 2 composite outputs (one for TV1, one for TV2), two RF outputs (one for Tv1, one for TV2) and one S-video output. My 211 has component, HDMI, composite, RF (F-type coax) and S-video out. So, that's FOUR analog outputs.

#7--err...seriously? I feel your pain. However, I think that outward anger needs to be redirected. ;) DirectTV won't even let you own your equipment. Granted, it's cheaper to lease w/ Dish. However, at least Dish will let you own and (legally) resell your equipment outright.

#8--legitimate gripe w/ Dish--the $5/mo programming access fee that you are charged if you don't have your receiver plugged into a phone line or a network connection--had you brought that one up I would've cheered you with a standing ovation

CalifLove, the perfect solution with be a Dish/Echostar DVR with Verizon FIOS. The next best thing would be FIOS w/ a Tivo. FIOS isn't available? Well...consider Dish and their superior DVR's or DirectTV w/ Tivo ($$$) as your perfect solution.

If sports programming is important to you, then DirectTV is the likely way to go.

If cheapest HD option is what you want, then Dish is a no-brainer.

If movie channels are most important to you then Dish is the way to go. If you want VOD then it's a toss-up. For exclusive or preview content like cable, then consider Direct. For 1080p24, consider Dish.

DirectTV won't even let you own your equipment.
Yes, they will. They don't advertise it very much, because they charge an absurd amount. I believe the cost to buy an HD DVR outright is currently $500.

Well, Allargon, you pretty well nailed it for me -- DISH it is.

I'd like to note that when I first hopped onto this thread 10 days ago, it was 34 posts and 3 months long, lol -- 10 days later it's added 100 posts, so I THINK I kinda "got it going" again, lol... maybe stirred the pot again (as I KNOW I've added only a dozen or so of those 100 new posts).

DISH for ME because...

1. I'm NOT much of a Sports fan... watch some of the major tennis tournaments, occasional football game, not much else.
2. I DO want the least expensive option -- both starting out and longterm.
3. I want the best DVR experience.
4. I want at least 2 HD receivers with DVR and a total of 4 receivers, total, at no extra cost.
5. I think I can tie my DISH into the phone line or my Ethernet, if need be.
6. I like being able to add an external hard drive without losing the use of the internal HD
7. Being an East-Coaster, from what I've read, it appears I'll have a better experience.
8. Echostar has recently built a fairly large facility in my county, so I'll be helping support the local economy.
9. Movie channels ARE important to me (I'd prefer U-Verse or FIOS, if I could get them here, but Oh Well).

Only real downside to me is the one-week programming limit -- I'm used to getting a couple weeks with Media Center, which is the only way I've been recording things for several years. I can likely live with it, though. That business about the DISH logo replacing whatever's on the screen after a few hours seems a bit annoying, but I can't really think of when I'd be wanting to set a separate DVR to record something FROM the DISH DVR that IT had already recorded in the middle of the night... Maybe I'll figure out that need and why that's such a pain later.
Jeff

Where are you getting this 30 buck hd fee for e*?

also what box are you saying is ten a month?

I think you are mistaken my friend

Right on my monthly statement I USED to get. They considered the HD pack a premium and there was a $30 charge for the HD package. Also a charge for the 2nd HD package that included I think 8 more channels. The lease was for the VIP722. All of these charges hit as my promo period ran out.

I believe he was using the old system before TurboHD

I also read a few pages back, and E* is the ABSOLUTE WORST provider for SD channels. They are barely above the quality of YouTube now. That might be a little exaggeration, but during the NBA League Pass free promo, I could not stand to watch the games in SD. I had seen mixes and highlights on Youtube that were higher quality(some were even made with footage from the 90s and early 2000s)

Thank You. You are correct, on both.

I believe he was using the old system before TurboHD

I also read a few pages back, and E* is the ABSOLUTE WORST provider for SD channels. They are barely above the quality of YouTube now. That might be a little exaggeration, but during the NBA League Pass free promo, I could not stand to watch the games in SD. I had seen mixes and highlights on Youtube that were higher quality(some were even made with footage from the 90s and early 2000s)

It is my experience, having had both, that Dish is the absolutely best provider for SD. There is a noticable quality difference in their favor that I have noticed on my projector. Though I don't really watch much SD anymore. But when I went to dish they were widely known for having better SD quality than direct and it turned out to be true.

As I almost NEVER watch ANY SD since I got HDTV, the PQ on SD is a MOOT POINT to me -- particularly if I'm switching to Satellite to get A BUNCH MORE HD CHANNLES, lol.

The ONLY SD channels I watch now are Sci-Fi, USA and the CW -- and that's ONLY because Charter doesn't yet offer them in HD here... I have like 30 or 35 paid movie channels, with all the various HBOs, Showtimes, Cinemaxes, Encores and whatnot, but I don't watch ANY of the ones Charter doesn't offer in HD... It's just SUCH a letdown watching them in SD now that I have HD. So I effectively have 4 or 5 premium movie channels... With DISH and Turbo HD, I'd have about as many as I have now (counting the SD), but they'd ALL be in HD!

One thing I've noticed, also, with Charter... the LOWER in the channel numbers I go with SD channels, the WORSE the quality gets. The regular local channels, on the rare occasions I'm FORCED to watch them in SD (when the HD isn't working), the quality is TERRIBLE -- but the higher-numbered cable channels look A LOT better.

Those channels look crappy on basic cable, too. I know this because I run the basic cable into my computers for my Media Center recordings of shows I time-shift, and the recordings of Channels 4-13 have wavy lines and whatnot -- sometimes the quality even gets poor enough the recording stops.
Jeff

Same here one dish. We had an Eastern Arc install ( for the east coast)with a dish 1000.4 aimed at the 61.5,72,77 satellites

Would a dish used for accessing Dish Network utilize this "Eastern Arc"...from the middle of the country. I'm in Central Texas....and just curious. Thanks! :D

Would a dish used for accessing Dish Network utilize this "Eastern Arc"...from the middle of the country. I'm in Central Texas....and just curious. Thanks! :D

Most likely, but the elevation might be low. There is a website that will give you all the specs for just about any sat in the sky if you put in your zip.


Ahh Here it is. It's actually a really cool website. Scroll all the way down to multi LNB, 1000.4

Actually it looks like your elevation is extremely high! You should be good to go!

http://www.dishpointer.com/

Right on my monthly statement I USED to get. They considered the HD pack a premium and there was a $30 charge for the HD package. Also a charge for the 2nd HD package that included I think 8 more channels. The lease was for the VIP722. All of these charges hit as my promo period ran out.

Well the fees now are ten bucks a month for all hd of the sd channels that you sub to ( Excluding movie channels, they are free) and the 722 is 7 a month.

If you call them you can get that package.

I noticed that nobody is mentioning the fact that E*'s DVR's work in two rooms at once. Granted the second room is SD, but it still is a great thing to have. I am not aware that D* has this...


As far as SD's are concerned, if you are on Eastern Arc, they blow away everyone save FIOS.

Most likely, but the elevation might be low. There is a website that will give you all the specs for just about any sat in the sky if you put in your zip.


Ahh Here it is. It's actually a really cool website. Scroll all the way down to multi LNB, 1000.4

Actually it looks like your elevation is extremely high! You should be good to go!

http://www.dishpointer.com/

Thanks nakedeye!

Yes...I guess I can get dialed into the Eastern Arc....there are coordinates for the Dish 1000.4 for my location. :D

Thanks nakedeye!

Yes...I guess I can get dialed into the Eastern Arc....there are coordinates for the Dish 1000.4 for my location. :D

I know that they reserve the EA for the east coast but if you buy the dish and have a VIP series stb I don't see why you couldn't get it. The elevation of the dish in my yard is 46 degrees it will be less where you live, but I assume it would still be possible to get a signal unless there are tall trees or buildings around you

I know that they reserve the EA for the east coast but if you buy the dish and have a VIP series stb I don't see why you couldn't get it. The elevation of the dish in my yard is 46 degrees it will be less where you live, but I assume it would still be possible to get a signal unless there are tall trees or buildings around you

My current dish is on the edge of my roof with a clear shot in all directions except to the west. Would it be normal to ask the installer to aim the dish so as to use these specific coordinates? Would they automatically go for some other coordinates in my area? I would assume they have specific instructions on how best to point the dish...yes?

Is it true that SD/HD quality is better for those using the Eastern Arc sats and if that is the case, how do you know if you are pointed to those? I have VIP boxes but currently, they do not have ANY access cards in them...which brings me to another question, how does that work at all? I am a new install..perhaps the cards will be mailed out shortly?

It is my experience, having had both, that Dish is the absolutely best provider for SD. There is a noticable quality difference in their favor that I have noticed on my projector. Though I don't really watch much SD anymore. But when I went to dish they were widely known for having better SD quality than direct and it turned out to be true.

Dish and Direct both have horrendous SD quality. Dish is slightly better, but we are talking the difference between the smell of a skunk and a hyena. Neither is pleasant.

The telcos (at least AT&T does) definitely win in the SD PQ dept.

The telcos (at least AT&T does) definitely win in the SD PQ dept.

I will take your word for it. Never had TV from the telcos.

I noticed that nobody is mentioning the fact that E*'s DVR's work in two rooms at once. Granted the second room is SD, but it still is a great thing to have. I am not aware that D* has this...
DirecTV doesn't have this, and it probably hasn't been mentioned here precisely because it's SD-only, and it ties up a DVR tuner. That severely limits the usefulness.

I noticed that nobody is mentioning the fact that E*'s DVR's work in two rooms at once. Granted the second room is SD, but it still is a great thing to have. I am not aware that D* has this...


As far as SD's are concerned, if you are on Eastern Arc, they blow away everyone save FIOS.

DirecTV doesn't have this, and it probably hasn't been mentioned here precisely because it's SD-only, and it ties up a DVR tuner. That severely limits the usefulness.

Very correct. Also another thing that some do not think about, is if you do have the E* receiver hooked up and another line run to a TV for the SD connection, if your receiver goes out and that is your only receiver, you are SOL. I prefer to have a receiver for each TV just because of that possible senario.

I leave the DVR on single tuner mode. But you can still connect it to another TV they just have to watch whatever the other TV watches. Which is fine. Now my daughter can watch cartoons in her playroom without wearing down the bulb on the projector.

But you can still connect it to another TV they just have to watch whatever the other TV watches. Which is fine.
OK, but any DirecTV receiver or DVR can do that as well, so it's not really that big of a deal. With DirecTV, the "remote" TV can even be HD.

OK, but any DirecTV receiver or DVR can do that as well, so it's not really that big of a deal. With DirecTV, the "remote" TV can even be HD.

But i'm not talking about direct.

Though with the dish receiver you also get a remote that will work from that other room.

But i'm not talking about direct.
I am.
Though with the dish receiver you also get a remote that will work from that other room.
You can get RF remotes for DirecTV receivers as well.

It is my experience, having had both, that Dish is the absolutely best provider for SD.
I would have to say that's a silly reason to choose a provider if you are able to view HD. Both D* and E* have nearly every popular channel available in HD and are slowly adding more as time goes by. I would submit HD quality is the only consideration as far as quality is concerned - especially if you're posting in this forum.

In that case, D* currently wins over E*. However, if FIOS is offered in your area, that is almost certainly a better choice than either. Right now, most cable outlets fail to match the offerings or quality of FIOS and several fall behind even D*. U-Verse is a tossup compared to cable, but is ahead of E* and behind D*. There's no comparison to FIOS.

So, here's how I would break it down:

- If FIOS is available in your area, that's your best choice hands down.
- If FIOS is not available and you have a place to put up a dish, D* is your best option.
- If neither of the above work for you, and U-Verse is available, that's probably your best choice if your cable provider is lacking.
- If your cable company is not degrading quality and offers the channels you want, that's your choice if the above solutions are not practical.
- Choose E* if price is your main motivation.
- Consider OTA if you want best quality, but are really, really opposed to spending money on TV services.

I would have to say that's a silly reason to choose a provider if you are able to view HD.

I did not choose based on SD quality. I was just saying that having had both SD is better on Dish than Direct.
And it would not be a silly reason for someone who doesn't care about HD.

I choose dish for their HD only package and their receivers. And their larger selection of HD now and and announced for the year.

Direct as a better option depends entirely on if they have the price/channels you want. I only care about HD so after promos that's $40 from dish. With direct to get the channels i'm after it would be $75.

Cable here sucks. Dish HD is significantly better than Comcast. There is no FIOS or U-Verse. There is FIOS on the westside of town and parts around the eastside. The price seems right but they don't seem to have as much HD as Dish. I do have OTA HD and the picture quality is indistingushable from dish to me.

Yeah, SD looks perfectly fine with Dish and certainly not inferior to Directv but I try to avoid watching SD as much as possible after being spoiled by HD. Also PQ with HD Dish programming, in my experience, is not as strong as OTA but there's just not a huge difference.

Very correct. Also another thing that some do not think about, is if you do have the E* receiver hooked up and another line run to a TV for the SD connection, if your receiver goes out and that is your only receiver, you are SOL. I prefer to have a receiver for each TV just because of that possible senario.

Single TV HD DVR's and receivers are also available from Dish. DirectTV has zero advantage in the equipment selection in this case. Morever, most people still have SD sets in their bedrooms. Dish is one of the few other than cable (via analog) that allows one to access programming without a set top box. Of course cable (and maybe Verizon?) trumps them all via QAM/cable cards for HD with no set top box.

Also remember that with dish you only need one line ran to your dvr. Direst requires two lines.

Also remember that with dish you only need one line ran to your dvr. Direst requires two lines.
Incorrect. With DirecTV's newest dish, only one line is required.

Also remember that with dish you only need one line ran to your dvr. Direst requires two lines.


And yet here I STILL SIT not yet having made that call to DISH, with Charter only a couple days away from hitting me with ANOTHER MONTH'S ADVANCE charge for $127 for TV service. I'm MAKING THAT CALL TOMORROW! My plan is to do the BUSINESS during REGULAR BUSINESS HOURS -- although I know all this stuff is 24/7, because I want to be CERTAIN I have access to the absolute TOP professional(s) when making my deal and setting my appointment. I'm going to do the whole thing online first (WITHOUT finalizing the deal or even indicating who I am), then call and try to get a better deal on the phone ;)
Jeff
Jeff

Yeah, SD looks perfectly fine with Dish and certainly not inferior to Directv but I try to avoid watching SD as much as possible after being spoiled by HD. Also PQ with HD Dish programming, in my experience, is not as strong as OTA but there's just not a huge difference.

Dish does 7 channels per transponder MPEG 4 and compression is a major factor in poor PQ right now for sports including NHL Center ice HD, FSN-HD for college basketball games and NBA League Pass HD.

They are really squeezing and do not care, if they cared they would go down to 4 per TP. Comparing local OTA to Dish is not helping with much info. It depends on which locals multicast vs. which don't.

here in madison, wi only 1 station does not multicast (FOX) and the rest of our locals blow. They are sharper than Dish during still images because they are 1920x1080 but Dish only does 1440x1080. 2 of our locals will be multicasting 1 HD and 2 SD. me personally I just want my analog C-band Dish back. I am sick of this ****.

They are really squeezing and do not care, if they cared they would go down to 4 per TP.
They don't need to go down to 4. DirecTV does 5-6, and their PQ is just fine.

Were did everyone go? This was getting good!:D

They don't need to go down to 4. DirecTV does 5-6, and their PQ is just fine.

But that's apples to oranges, since DirecTV's transponders have more bandwidth.

But that's apples to oranges, since DirecTV's transponders have more bandwidth.
Is that really the case? I seem to remember Dish having wider transponders, but I could be wrong.

All Ku transponders are the same "width", because they are licensed as individual transponders. Dish did get more net bandwidth per Ku transponder than DirecTV (on Ku), because of the type of modulation they used. But since DirecTV's HD is on Ka, it's a completely different ballgame. They are licensed an entire slot, and to the best of my knowledge, they can break it up however they want (more small transponders, fewer big transponders, or whatever). I haven't looked at it in a long time, but my recollection was that DirecTV had them set at something that resulted in somewhere around 60Mbps, and Dish was getting around 40Mbps from their Ku transponders.

my recollection was that DirecTV had them set at something that resulted in somewhere around 60Mbps
It's definitely not that high. I can't recall the exact number, but it's closer to 40.

Were did everyone go? This was getting good!:D

They might be gettin' ready to GET GOOD again, too, Oz Man. If you remember, I was the one who brought this thread back to life in late January, and I'mmmmm BAAAAAAAAAAAACK, and this time, I'm BREATHING FIREEEEE!!! :mad:

After two consecutive nights trying to finalize a "system build" with DISH Network (I started too late last night, it turned out, to get "live help," although that DIDN'T STOP their stupid automated "friendly face-in-a-box" from CONTINUALLY popping up on my build screen until I asked for help, only to be told there was "nobody" available to help me, but I could send an email, so I sent a DETAILED email with my questions, which has STILL not been answered... So, I "built a system" again tonight and ran into THE SAME questions, and since it was BEFORE the slackers QUIT for the evening, I clicked for a "Live Chat." Following is the RESULT of that "Live Chat," followed by a crop of my final Pre-checkout page (NOT the build page where you have the multiple TVs showing up, but the final one that shows what your commitment is, and you'll see WHY I chose to post that one after you see how our conversation went).

01) Michael V.: Thank you for that information. How may I assist you today?
Jeff: I typed in a LONG message for "email" last night, because it was PAST normal "chat time," but I have no response yet, or even acknowledgement that I sent it.
(01) Michael V.: I apologize for that, please feel free to ask me your question then.
Jeff: Well, I've been considering DISH for more than a month, now, and I've done a few "test builds" before, pretty much identical to this one, but I didn't complete the order because I hadn't decided between DISH and DirecTV yet at that time...
Jeff: The last time I did a "test build," I was able to build a home system with two HDTVs, both with DVR with NO upgrade charge. This time, not only is there an IMMEDIATE $100 upgrade for the DVR, but when I add the fourth TV, there's ANOTHER $100 added! What gives?!?
Jeff: IF I were doing that little $9.99 "starter package" you guys are offering I could understand that, but I'm NOT. I'm doing next to the largest package you offer!
(01) Michael V.: We only give the first DVR for free, as of the moment you will need to have the additional HD DVR for $100.
Jeff: I'm looking at switching from Charter Cable largely because THEY keep adding $$$ Well what about the extra $100 on TOP of that for the fourth TV???
(01) Michael V.: Let me make it clear.
Jeff: Right now, with four TVs selected, with only two of them having a DVR, I have a $200 upgrade charge!
(01) Michael V.: How many TVs are you planning to hook up?
Jeff: 4
(01) Michael V.: How many are in HD?
Jeff: 2 HD with DVR; 2 SD without DVR
(01) Michael V.: You can have 1 HD TV and 1 SD TV hooked up with a DVR without an extra cost, we can hook up the 2nd HDTV and 2nd standard TV to a DVR for only $ 12.00 a month. However there will still be a $100.00 upgrade fee for the second DVR.
Jeff: Can you look at my "system build" screen?
(01) Michael V.: I can not see your page around here.
(01) Michael V.: What page are you on now?
(01) Michael V.: Just to check are you on the same link?
The agent is sending you to http://www.dishtv.com/mydish.jsp.
Jeff: Page 3. Design Your System.
(01) Michael V.: Okay, how many TVs do you see?
Jeff: Well, it's GONE now. Now I don't see ANY TVs, because the link you sent me TOTALLY REPLACED the build I had up on the screen!
Jeff: Oh, wait, now I do.
Jeff: It's on the second page
(01) Michael V.: Go to the link that I provided you.
(01) Michael V.: I'll walk you through in placing your order.
Jeff: Can you see my build now?
Jeff: It starts with "TurboHD Gold $42.99"
Jeff: And it has 4 TVs on it.
(01) Michael V.: I don't have an access to your account Jeremy, I apologize.
Jeff: You don't even have my FRACKIN' name right!
Jeff: Upi
Jeff: You're WASTING MY TIME! I think maybe I'll take the advice of MOST of the people at the AVS forum and go with DirecTV INSTEAD!
(01) Michael V.: I apologize I'm having max chat right now.
Jeff: That's not MY problem!
Jeff: My build screen just erased itself because it was Up too long.
(01) Michael V.: I do apologize Sir.
Jeff: One of the MAJOR reasons I was going with DISH is that you were more accomodating with DVRs and whatnot... Yeah, "Sir," because you don't even know my NAME any more, huh?
(01) Michael V.: Please click the first TV as an HD with a DVR, make the second TV a standard, it will automatically have the 2nd TV with a DVR too. same with the 3rd TV make it in HD with DVR and the 4th a standard with a DVR too.
Jeff: I just cut-and-pasted this entire chat into an EMAIL so I can send it around the INTERNET... Perhaps you won't have "MAX CHATS" TO WORRY ABOUT for much longer!
Jeff: I can't do that any more... My build RESET TO THE BEGINNING! I have to START OVER!
(01) Michael V.: My apology.
(01) Michael V.: Are you still with me Mr. Jeff?
Jeff: Yeah, I'm trying to make it configure like you said.
(01) Michael V.: Take your time.
(01) Michael V.: I will stand by in case you encounter any concerns in placing the order.
Jeff: No matter WHAT I do, I still end up with a $200 UPGRADE CHARGE!
Jeff: And AS SOON as I make the THIRD TV HD, the "System Builder" AUTOMATICALLY" moves it to the SECOND place.
(01) Michael V.: Please go for a 24 month commitment Jeff, you'll see that it'll be reduced.
Jeff: I thought I already had, but I'll see.
Jeff: Frankly, unless I'm going to OWN the box, I don't see why I should pay ANYTHING for it.
Jeff: I also have a second question.
Jeff: Your promotions say that DVR service is $6 per month, but you're charging $24 per month for 2 DVRs, which works out to $12 per month.
(01) Michael V.: Because its a DUO HD DVR RECEIVER, we offer the $5.00 a month per receiver if it's a Solo Standard Receiver.
Jeff: Yaknow, it doesn't say that in the promotions.
Jeff: I'm wondering if maybe the FCC needs to know about some "truth in advertising" issues.
(01) Michael V.: We made the Dish Builder to be transparent to our customer, we are proud to say that Dish network don't have any Hidden fees for their customers.
Jeff: I frankly don't see why a solo or a duo should cost different. In my "build breakdown," I have a charge of $7 for HD DUODVR Receiver, then $5 for DISH Network DVR, then $12 for "Additional Fees," which are listed as "DVR Receiver Fee"
Jeff: Thanks for your time, Michael. I'm going to have to look into this a little more

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/JeffAHayes/ScreenJotCropped03-12-2009220746.jpg

Soooooo, do I have reason to be peeved, or is this just PAR for the Course?

I guess I'm off to look at DirecTV again! :rolleyes:
Jeff

P.S. AHEM, "Mr. Jeff" I wonder just WHAT province of India THIS goomer hails from?

(01) Michael V.: We made the Dish Builder to be transparent to our customer, we are proud to say that Dish network don't have any Hidden fees for their customers.

They don't get a grammar check either

I apologize if my last post was both a little lengthy AND, perhaps, "over-the-top," BUT I felt it was both a bit justified AND perhaps some complete transparency of the "actual process" was due in this case... And since I hadn't posted in at least a couple weeks, I sorta felt it balanced out.

I hope I didn't violate some TOS by using actual information from a live session with one of the companies like that. If I did, I'm sure some moderator will remove it. I felt it was pretty pertinent to both credibility and integrity.
Jeff

SCREW IT! It looks like I have LITTLE OPTION but to go with DISH if I don't want to get ENTIRELY screwed! Worse yet, COMCAST has started running TV COMMERCIALS in MY MARKET, which does NOT bode well for the continued longevity of Charter here, and from what you guys have been saying Comcast is AT LEAST as bad, if not WORSE than Charter -- At least Charter hasn't yet put ANY monthly limits on Broadband usage! NONE! And that's the ONLY good thing I'll say about them. I was looking into AT&T DSL in the area -- the ONLY other broadband alternative at present -- and they ALREADY have a MAXIMUM limit, after which, from what I can tell, they just SHUT your service down for the month, which -- for their FASTEST service (still only 60% as fast as what I have, which is Charter's SECOND-FASTEST, and COSTS about the same), their broadband monthly limit was, I believe, 200 GB? Heck, the month I had Graboid I used more than TWICE that! Even WITHOUT something like Graboid, ANYONE who watches A LOT of TV shows via networks' online sites and sites like Hulu.com could QUICKLY surpass such a limit!

This reminds me of a news story I just read where some lady SUPPOSEDLY had an "unlimited text service" with AT&T only to get a bill for $5,000 at the end of the month when she took that LITERALLY! She's SUING, and GOOD FOR HER! My Moniker for AT&T is A$$holes, Tyrants and Terrorists!

At any rate, with the CLOSEST possible plan to what I was looking at with DISH (DirecTV's second-largest plan -- the one just BELOW "Premiere," which includes a "free HD DVR" and something like 200 SD channels," inserted BELOW is the "checkout page" breakdown of what my initial payments would have been, and also what it would have ENDED UP being (I used a calculator to "do the math," which I'll get to below)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/JeffAHayes/ScreenJotCropped03-13-2009003237.jpg

With THESE figures, I not only START OUT paying $17 more a month, but at 3 months I'm paying $113.99 (vs. $82.99 with DISH -- that extra $22 off was 3 months free HBO and other Pay channels), and at 1 YEAR it jumps to $134.99 (vs. $102.99 @ 6 months, with DISH). BOTH are charging me an extra $200 for the SECOND HD DVR, but only DirecTV is ALSO charging an extra $5/month LEASE FEE for EACH receiver after the first one! (Although DISH IS charging $12, each, for the DVRs, because EACH will record 2 signals)... STILL, the dollars stack up how they stack up, and although I'm still a bit peeved at DISH, hey, what can I say???

I WILL say that I've noticed the DirecTV boxes FOR SALE at Best Buy (and other places), which would TOTALLY eliminate "lease fees" and others, but then you own the danged thing if it breaks, or if you decide you don't LIKE DirecTV, or if the technology changes, or whatever, and you're STUCK with it, so I'm not quite sure how I feel about THAT, either.

This is all really MOSTLY over a $200 upgrade charge I want DISH to make GO AWAY, lol... How can I do that? :confused: They're IN TROUBLE and I'm ANGRY and STUBBORN AS HELL, lol!
Jeff

As if ON CUE, immediately after my LAST POSTING, the following email almsot "magically appeared" in my in-box almost EXACTLY 24 hours after I sent the request to DISH... The following copy is not QUITE all of it, but most of it -- all the pertinent parts:

Dear Mr. Hayes,

Thank you for your e-mail.

We are so glad that you are interested in getting Dish Network services. We would love to have you as a customer.


The system will configure the kind of receivers you will have as based on the number and kind of TVs you enter on the Dish Builder.

Dish Network is proud to offer Dual-Tuner receivers at no additional upfront cost. The Dual-Tuner allows for two televisions, in separate rooms, to view television independently using just one receiver box. Each television will have its own remote control; it will be just like having two traditional receivers except for that there will be only one receiver box.

Each dual tuner receiver will come with two remote controls, one Infrared remote for the first television and one UHF remote for the second TV. There is only one receiver, but it knows which remote is for which TV. This way you have independent viewing in both rooms.


Our HD DVR receiver is a single tuner (good for 1 HD TV) or a dual tuner box that allows you to get independent programming on 2 TV’s and record on both at the same time. One room would be in HD and the other would be in standard format. We don't offer any dual tuner receivers that can connect 2 HD TVs as of the moment.


Any first HD DVR (dual or single tuner) or standard DVR (dual tuner) is free upgrade. There is an upgrade fee of $100 (single tuner HD DVR or dual tuner standard DVR) or $200 (HD DVR dual tuner).

On the “design your system” page, you have to have 4 TVs on the screen by clicking the “add TV” button. Convert the 2 standard TVs into HD and choose the “with DVR” option to 1 HD and 1 standard TV. If you will see 1 HD TV and 1 standard to have “with DVR” and the other 2 TVs to have “without DVR” then you will get 1 HD DVR and 1 HD NON DVR for free upgrade.

Be reminded that each DVR receiver, regardless if it is a single or dual tuner, has a monthly DVR fee of $5.98 for the recording or the advance features of the equipment.

The first standard receiver has no monthly leasing cost. Any standard receiver beyond the first is $5.00 a month, while there is a monthly fee of $7.00 if you have an HD receiver. Keep in mind that one receiver is able to service 2 TVs with independent viewing for each. These are known as dual tuner receivers.

So, if you have selected 2 HD TVs with DVR, it will give you 2 HD DVRs and you will see $12 extra which is the combination cost of extra receiver fee and 2nd DVR fee. Note that you also get the $0.98 savings if you bundle your DVRs with programming package and locals.

I am sorry for the inconvenience if you don’t get hold of a live sales person on chat room since we have business schedule between 7 AM to 12 AM Mountain Time. You can log on between these times if you want an assistance from a live sales representative.


Our current promotion for TV service called Digital Home Advantage or the leasing program offers a free installation and free standard equipment for up to 4 rooms (depending on the kind of receivers). With a 24 month commitment, we will waive the $99 one time activation fee making it absolutely free for you to start the service!

As an added value, you will receive as much as $35 programming credits each month for the first 6 months of your service as well as free HBO and Starz packages for 3 months if you take advantage of the Classic Bronze 100 or higher, TurboHD Bronze or higher and Dish Latino Classico or higher packages.

On top of that, with a 24 month contract and a qualifying package, you will get our extensive Dish Home Protection Plan (DHPP) warranty for your equipment and installation. This protection plan is free for the duration of 9 months and is a $5.99 value for you! This means that you can always ensure unlimited entertainment options that guarantee exceptional viewing pleasure for you and the rest of the family without you spending a fortune.

Another offer exclusively from Cinemax is to get the 5 Cinemax channels for only a penny for 12 months. All you need to do is enroll to the Automatic Payment with paperless billing service

After reading through it about three times, I ALMOST UNDERSTAND all that mindless mibbergy mash... Yaknow, on the BUILD PAGE, they give you NO OPTION as to just HOW MANY SETS the DVR you select for your HDTV WILL or WON'T address. I think they hired a bunch of freakin' college SOPHOMORES to design that crap, because it's ALL VERY SOPHOMORIC! Then again, DirecTV seems to be FAR AND AWAY the leader, and their site lists DEVICES rather than TVs, but they just FLAT OUT REAM YOU, and if you don't like it, you have your choice -- stick with them, or go to cable or DISH.

I know of people who SELL dishes for $200 or so, with boxes -- completely UNBLOCKED -- EVERY TIME whatever company that dish is associated with makes "a sweep" and CRASHES the unblocked chip in their box, you call them (or my friends do, I always thought that was too illegal for MY tastes), and for $30 or so, they come out and put in a new chip. I watched a Las Vegas World Heavyweight Championships prize fight with Larry Holmes on one of those setups back in the early part of this decade and it came in just fine... Haven't had anything to do with that guy in years, but I'm tempted to call him up and find out if he still has contact with the guy with the $200 satellites. I'm kinda getting FED UP with the choices!
Jeff

Looks like I'm gonna have to go with DISH no matter what, but there's NO WAY I can configure my system online, because their COMPLETELY RETARDED online configurator makes ABSOLUTELY NO ALLOWANCES for someone like me, for instance, who wants ONLY HD DVR on TWO sets and really DOESN'T care about DVR for EITHER of the SD sets AT ALL... Nooooo, if you select ANY HDTV WITH DVR, it AUTOMATICALLY configures it for a DUAL DVR setup, which is WHY I got stuck with a $200 overage charge instead of $100, which is what it WOULD have been! Heck, if I want only a SINGLE DVR on EACH HDTV, I don't see why I should get ANY overage charge!

From what I can tell, other than RINKY DINK operators, only Sears and Radio Shack (oh BROTHER) offer DISH sales in-store, which leaves me the option of either calling DISH's 800 number during regular business hours and ATTEMPTING TO EXPLAIN what I want to someone who's likely half-asleep and chewing curry... OR I go into a Radio Shack or Sears and deal with some American "salesperson" who likely has the training and education of the average Madagascar Lemur! (I DO, on RARE OCCASIONS, still find SOMEONE in a Radio Shack with a BRAIN ON BOARD, so that'll likely be my route.)

I seldom pray, but Lord, please give me strength. It's Friday the 13th, it's not even 7 a.m. yet, I've been up all night and I REALLY feel like STRANGLING something or someone! :eek:
Jeff

Hi,

Can someone answer with some authority about the "who has the most HD channels"? I live in the San Jose area, and have a choice of going through Comcast cable or satellite. I watch almost exclusively HD only.

Hi,

Can someone answer with some authority about the "who has the most HD channels"? I live in the San Jose area, and have a choice of going through Comcast cable or satellite. I watch almost exclusively HD only.
That's a question you'll have to ask through the local Comcast thread in this area: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=45

Each Comcast system is different.

However, I would assume that D* probably has more based on the average Comcast system.

my recollection was that DirecTV had them set at something that resulted in somewhere around 60MbpsIt's definitely not that high. I can't recall the exact number, but it's closer to 40.

I knew you'd make me research this. ;) According to Lyngsat, DirecTV is running 30,000 Msps on Ka (http://www.lyngsat.com/dtv99.html) at 3/4 FEC, and I'm quite sure they are using 8PSK on their Ka satellites (but not Ku). That should equate out to 67.5 Mbps. Looks like Dish is doing 21,500 Msps at 2/3 FEC on their HD transponders (http://www.lyngsat.com/echo11.html), and I'm sure they're also using 8PSK. That should work out to 43 Mbps. I know there's some other overhead in there that doesn't make the net bandwidth exactly these numbers, but they are close, and should at least scale relatively accurately. So it looks like DirecTV has about 50% more capacity per transponder. You just can't count the number of channels per transponder and compare the two directly.

According to Lyngsat, DirecTV is running 30,000 Msps on Ka (http://www.lyngsat.com/dtv99.html) at 3/4 FEC, and I'm quite sure they are using 8PSK on their Ka satellites (but not Ku). That should equate out to 67.5 Mbps.
The symbol rate and FEC they have listed is for Spaceway 2, which is only used for spot beams. The CONUS transponders on D10 and D11 are loaded with 5-6 channels each, with max bitrates on each channel around 8mbps. They aren't just doing that for fun, they don't have 67.5mbps available on each transponder.

Hi,

Can someone answer with some authority about the "who has the most HD channels"? I live in the San Jose area, and have a choice of going through Comcast cable or satellite. I watch almost exclusively HD only.

DirecTV is CLAIMING "more than 120 Channels of HD," but when you look at their BIGGEST package and COUNT all the HD channels listed with it, they come to something like 50 or 60, so I just DON'T GET IT! I guess they remaining half that are MISSING are all the Sports and PPV channels you get if you include THOSE packages AND if you pay EXTRA for all the PPV channels ON TOP of their highest pricing tier -- that's the only thing I can figure!

I really think there's very little "truth in advertising" when it comes to how many HD channels there are with either DISH or DirecTV. DISH claims a certain number for their Gold package, but when I sit there and add them up, THAT doesn't come anywhere close, either. All I know is that if I buy it WITH all the Pay channels (HBO, Showtime, Cinemax and Starz) I get SEVERAL of EACH of the Pay channels in HD, while I currently get ONLY ONE of each of those pay channels in HD with Charter Cable, while I get all the others, but they're NOT in HD... That, alone, is enough to make me want to switch -- especially when DISH is going to be WAY LESS MONEY than Charter, even after all the introductory special prices are expired.

I DIDN'T get out to Sears or Radio Shack today. Have to go shopping for a new washing machine, anyway, and am going to wait until tomorrow. Somehow I just think the combination of my current state of mind AND "Friday the 13th," AND the fact that I didn't get to bed until about 8 a.m. today DID NOT make today a good day for me to do serious shopping for ANYTHING. :rolleyes:
Jeff

The symbol rate and FEC they have listed is for Spaceway 2, which is only used for spot beams.
The fact that they are spot beams is irrelevant. That simply means the transmissions are focused into geographical areas, with those frequencies re-used in other areas. But the fact that they are different satellites may be relevant... as I said earlier, Ka licenses can be broken up however the licensee chooses, so DirecTV may choose to have fewer big transponders here, and more smaller transponders there.
The CONUS transponders on D10 and D11 are loaded with 5-6 channels each, with max bitrates on each channel around 8mbps. They aren't just doing that for fun, they don't have 67.5mbps available on each transponder.
First, I didn't say they had 67.5 Mbps available... as I said there is other overhead that reduces the usable bandwidth from that number. The point I was making was that you can't compare Dish and DirecTV channel loadings as you were doing, because the transponders don't have the same bandwidth. DirecTV has more bandwidth per transponder, because their HD is on Ka satellites. Based on my math in my previous post, roughly 50% more.

But as you point out, Lyngsat doesn't list that for D10 and D11. And Lyngsat is kind of the wikipedia of satellite info... it's user submitted data, and not always accurate. So let's look at this from a different perspective: We know the Ku band that both DirecTV and Dish use is 500Mhz wide. A single Ka band (to the best of my knowledge, they are only using a single band so far for downlink) is also 500Mhz wide. But they use smaller guard bands, so Ka gets about a 10% advantage right off the bat. If we look at the DirecTV transponder maps (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=151550), I don't see any transponders higher than 24 on a Ka satellite. So even with D10 & D11, DirecTV is using larger transponders than a Ku transponder (there are 32 in a Ku slot). By the time you factor in the 10% advantage, nearly 50% larger. The Spaceway sats that are co-located might eat into that differential, if they have larger transponders than D10 & D11, but they only use a few transponders.

If you any data with better specifics, I'd be interested in seeing it. It's not as easy to find as it once was.

Well either I'm on something akin to "global ignore" at this point, or EVERYONE'S just completely bored with my debates and debacles over getting DISH or DirecTV at this point :o

Either way, I had reason to go to Sears today, shopping for a new washing machine, and it's only a few stores downmall from Radio Shack (ended up NOT buying the washer at Sears, and although there were FOUR people working in their TV department, I couldn't get any help with DISH because the only two who knew what they were doing -- ONE was dealing with a "looky-loo" customer, and the other, well, she was just standing there looking like she was in a daze... SO, I sauntered down to Radio Shack, which was also less busy, and lucked into getting their assistant manager, who seemed to pretty well know what he was doing -- BUT he was also mostly used to folks buying DISH service from them in the "pre-paid" variety... At any rate, THEIR "build screen" had MANY MORE options when it cam time to choose what you wanted in the way of recievers and DVRs, but STILL didn't seem to have the option(s) I NEEDED... SOOOO, he tried calling their local DISH rep, but, of course, HE wasn't answering his phone late on a Saturday afternoon... So I left.

There are two standalone DISH reps listed at their website in SMALL TOWNS in my county, the closest being about 10 miles up the road. I'll try one of THEM on Monday prior to trying to hash this out on the telephone, because I figure the telephone call will ALSO hook me up to some "Moron in Mumbai!" :eek:

I want to talk to someone who actually DEALS with this stuff and KNOWS what he or she is TALKING about! All I want is two HD receivers with Single HD DVRs and two SD TVs without DVR... That's NOT all that complicated and I CAN'T be the first or only person who wanted that, and I KNOW they have the single HDDVR units available.

Do any of YOU have this sort of setup? If so, did you have to pay an UPGRADE charge for it?
Jeff

If you any data with better specifics, I'd be interested in seeing it. It's not as easy to find as it once was.
I wish I did, because this stuff is interesting to me as well. But I don't.

Hi,

Can someone answer with some authority about the "who has the most HD channels"? I live in the San Jose area, and have a choice of going through Comcast cable or satellite. I watch almost exclusively HD only.

For DirecTV: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1058081

Check the local topic for what Comcast carries in your area.

Well either I'm on something akin to "global ignore" at this point, or EVERYONE'S just completely bored with my debates and debacles over getting DISH or DirecTV at this point :o

....I want to talk to someone who actually DEALS with this stuff and KNOWS what he or she is TALKING about! All I want is two HD receivers with Single HD DVRs and two SD TVs without DVR... That's NOT all that complicated and I CAN'T be the first or only person who wanted that, and I KNOW they have the single HDDVR units available.

Do any of YOU have this sort of setup? If so, did you have to pay an UPGRADE charge for it?
JeffIf you have a specific technical question, post a topic in the HDTV Technical Forum.