Yesterday evening I had a demo of the VW80. Its a brilliant machine for £4k.

I have an JVC HD100 and took that along to the dealer so I could directly compare in the same environment and on the same screen. My HD100 is ISF calibrated to the limitation of the projector but since the source(Pioneer BR player vs. my own HTPC) was different at the dealers I choose to use the preset given by JVC.

Externally I really like the HD100, its a great looking machine. The VW80 isn't so much. Its about as long as the JVC but slightly slimmer. Problem I have with it is the bland styling.

The VW80 was at a strong brightness advantage with only 17 hours on the lamp(HD100 had just over 500). This naturally meant the VW80 was a fair bit brighter.

As for overall image quality, the VW80 dominated the JVC in every area including black level which was surprising given how much brighter the lamp was. Colour looked better on the Sony even with out of box settings and you can actually calibrate it to correct standard unlike the HD100. Convergence on both machines were about equal and that is to say good. The Sony was noticeably sharper so the optics are better.

The biggest deal for me however was how the VW80 handled motion. I've been vocal about my displeasure with the JVC DILA and motion blur on pans and fast moving scenes. The VW80 has 120hz and dark frame insertion and makes movement look crystal clear. Its one of the most impressive things I've seen for a long time. The difference it makes is huge and I hope others see fit to implement dark frame insertion since its would be deal breaker for me now.

I need to sell my HD100 before I can make it happen but my next projector is definitely going to be the VW80.

Wow very interesting review.

Thank you.

So the RS20 may not be the Jesus projector?

Nice to know Sony is making good advancements though.

Whoa, how would the VW80 match up to a VW200?

Once you see the DI artefacts I'm sure the VW80 will be no good either. :p

So the RS20 may not be the Jesus projector?

I didn't compare the RS20 but the dealer is expecting his demo unit very soon and by the time I've sold the HD100 and ready to buy the VW80 it should be in store so I'll make sure to get another demo with the RS20 if that's the case.

I asked about the RS20 and the dealer said to me that he's seen the RS20 and sells the HD100 but didn't feel there was a significant difference between the two in terms of picture quality. What stood out for him was the colour controls and iris of the RS20 but the rest was fixes for problems with the previous generation. Its was a refinement of current technology rather than a significant extension of it by his own words.

The VW80 was, in his opinion, the better machine.

So the RS20 may not be the Jesus projector?

Nice to know Sony is making good advancements though.

HD100 aint no RS20. Need VW80 vs RS20 before deciding if RS20 is truly Jesus projector ...or not:D

Once you see the DI artefacts I'm sure the VW80 will be no good either. :p

I had a HS50 and HS60. The iris never bothered me even with those 1st and 2nd generation machines. The VW80 iris is transparent to my eyes.

The iris in it self is fine, dynamic iris combines the automatic opening and closing of the iris with dynamic contrast, you know the crappy control they put on LCD screens so they can quote a higher contast. That is one is the 1st things I look for on a display and switch it off. Remember the HD100 was the best digital projector you had ever seen up until a few weeks ago. I can't help but think you will be equally disapointed in the VW80 once you have used it for a while.

The iris in it self is fine, dynamic iris combines the automatic opening and closing of the iris with dynamic contrast, you know the crappy control they put on LCD screens so they can quote a higher contast. That is one is the 1st things I look for on a display and switch it off. Remember the HD100 was the best digital projector you had ever seen up until a few weeks ago. I can't help but think you will be equally disapointed in the VW80 once you have used it for a while.

I never said it would suit everyone, I'm giving my opinion here that's all.

VW80 is a better machine for me than the HD100 because the colours are good(and correctable) and most of all, the black frame insertion makes a large difference compared to the motion blur of the JVC. After the comparative demo between the two, the VW80 handles motion very well with none of the loss of detail and hazing of the HD100. The overall viewing experience is more realistic and believable.

They're the two biggest upshots for me but I'm happy to report the VW80 is brighter and has better black level the the HD100 and I couldn't tell an iris was at work even after living with JVC HD1/HD100 for 12 months.

Sure there'll be problems with it but so far nothing I've seen that's worse than the JVC and it does many things better.

[QUOTE=SOWK;15112003]So the RS20 may not be the Jesus projector?QUOTE]

You're back to your old tricks knocking the JVC 's again I see..

Given the thread title/forum member...I knew the result just from the thread title, before reading the OP. ;)

Given the thread title/forum member...I knew the result just from the thread title, before reading the OP. ;)

And given your own contributions here in this little corner of cyberspace, I knew the result of your appearance here in this thread. ;)

You should be glad for me, I've found a decent projector. :)

[QUOTE=SOWK;15112003]So the RS20 may not be the Jesus projector?QUOTE]

You're back to your old tricks knocking the JVC 's again I see..

I just wish everyone would stop praising the JVC's so much. They are not that much better then the competition. Also in some cases not better at all.

I would say 75% of this forum is on the pre buy list or was for the RS20...

I already said the RS20 will be a great machine, just not what most thinks its going to be though.

You should be glad for me, I've found a decent projector. :)

Yes I'm happy you found a projector you like and I'm sure it's more than a decent projector. Hopefully it will remain a satisfying purchase for you.

I already said the RS20 will be a great machine, just not what most thinks its going to be though.

There are going to be issues with the RS20 that make it imperfect, or that users would like to be better, as there is with every projector (at least around it's price point).

Anyone with a little time on this forum knows that...and I personally won't proclaim I "saw it all before anyone else" or "told ya so" when it happens, as if it takes some special insight to predict it. Because it's obviously going to happen. None of which means that people don't have very good reason to be optimistic that the projector offers what looks to be an excellent balance of performance and features at this time.

I just wish everyone would stop praising the JVC's so much. They are not that much better then the competition. Also in some cases not better at all.

I would say 75% of this forum is on the pre buy list or was for the RS20...[/QUOTE]

So you think the JVC is getting undue praise, that's fine. But are you trying to lump a Christian prophet in with this undue praise also? You could simply say"Gold Standard" or "End All Be All" but you insist on using Jesus. Don't look now but your Hebrew skirt is showing.

This motion blur issue is funny to me.

It bothered RS1 users so much, in fact, that when you search for the term "blur" in the 250 page RS1 owners thread, it comes up filling 4 of those 250 pages (and not all the posts mentioning blur are discussing motion blur).

The OP appears to like using dark frame insertion for film, when I think all respected forum members choose to leave it off saying that it renders film looking unnaturally like video.

I am glad that the OP has found a projector that he likes. I just don't think his likes and dislikes are typical enough for his choice to be interesting to anyone else.

Wouldn't dark frame insertion cut the on/off contrast ratio in half? Black would still show as black as the pj can get but white would show white that is half as bright due to the inclusion of one white frame and one black frame. Am I missing something here? Its not like the bulb shuts off or is blocked when there is a black frame, the projector just projects black as black as it can.

The OP appears to like using dark frame insertion for film, when I think all respected forum members choose to leave it off saying that it renders film looking unnaturally like video.

I think your talking about frame interpolation part that smooths out 24p or whatever. The Sony does have this and I'm not a fan of that either unless it was filmed in native 60p etc. The dark frame insertion is different and used for motion problems relating to how our eyes perceive a moving image on tech such as SXRD/LCD and DILA. Dark frame doesn't make film content look like video content.

I am glad that the OP has found a projector that he likes. I just don't think his likes and dislikes are typical enough for his choice to be interesting to anyone else.

Make no mistake that the VW80 smokes the HD100 in every area, not just motion resolution. I think that's interesting. I'll let you know how the HD750 compares once it arrives at my dealers.

Its OK though, I understand the need to disprove any disparaging comment about JVC on this forum, especially if you mention your in the RS20 groupbuy on every other thread.

To keep this in perspective, we're discussing projectors here. No need to expend any more energy than such a thing deserves.

Wouldn't dark frame insertion cut the on/off contrast ratio in half? Black would still show as black as the pj can get but white would show white that is half as bright due to the inclusion of one white frame and one black frame. Am I missing something here? Its not like the bulb shuts off or is blocked when there is a black frame, the projector just projects black as black as it can.

I too am interested in how it works.

I can say that subjectively you don't see a flickering image nor is there any perceived loss of contrast, quite the opposite actually, compared to 30k:1 HD100.

Wouldn't dark frame insertion cut the on/off contrast ratio in half? Black would still show as black as the pj can get but white would show white that is half as bright due to the inclusion of one white frame and one black frame. Am I missing something here? Its not like the bulb shuts off or is blocked when there is a black frame, the projector just projects black as black as it can.I believe you are right about it hurting on/off CR, besides decreasing lumens. As I've mentioned before, I'm hoping LED DLPs can do something like dark frame insertion without losing CR (since they can turn the LEDs off).

I'm not sure about cutting things to half, but that depends largely on how much of the time is left dark. I'm not sure that it is every other frame, or 50%. With 24Hz displayed at 96Hz or 120Hz it seems like they could just have it be dark 25% or 20% of the time, but I don't know how much that would do compared to having things be dark longer.

I would love to test the dark frame insertion feature with some different material, but I don't know of anybody in my area with a VW200. Hopefully I'll get to see the VW70 or VW80 locally.

--Darin

Why is the VW80 available everywhere except the U.S.? Is our dollar that worthless now? :D Even that "Japan price" website lists the asian version as having no available english menu.

darinp2
Do you see lasers allowing for good DFI implementations with lcos as LED can with dlp? Does dlp really need DFI?

I am confused about the whole VW70/VW80 thing, and I am sure others are also. There were some hints posted that the VW80 was a different machine, and in fact better (and cheaper too). I wish someone could verify.

I think your talking about frame interpolation part that smooths out 24p or whatever. The Sony does have this and I'm not a fan of that either unless it was filmed in native 60p etc. The dark frame insertion is different and used for motion problems relating to how our eyes perceive a moving image on tech such as SXRD/LCD and DILA. Dark frame doesn't make film content look like video content.

Sony talks about Dark Frame Insertion as an enhancement to Motionflow. See here (http://presscentre.sony.eu/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=284&NewsAreaID=2).

I have never seen it in action so I am only describing what I have read other people and Sony say about it. If I conflated Sony brand names, I am sorry to have done it.

I would like the RS20 to have these kinds of features. Even if I ultimately turned them off it would be fun to play around with them. Sony has not implemented these features on the VW-70 here in the US for some reason.

My point was not to attack you. It was only to suggest that your sensitivity to motion issues is not common. In fact it is not common.

If another company made a projector that seemed as good as the RS20, I would buy it. In fact while waiting for the RS20, I considered buying something else.

I am confused about the whole VW70/VW80 thing, and I am sure others are also. There were some hints posted that the VW80 was a different machine, and in fact better (and cheaper too). I wish someone could verify.

The VW70 appears to be a castrated VW80. I think the projector is the same but the firmware is different. The VW70 apparently has been stripped of the Motionflow and Dark Frame Insertion features.

Why did Sony do this? Presumably to sell more VW200s, which is the only projector in the US that offers them.

I believe you are right about it hurting on/off CR, besides decreasing lumens. As I've mentioned before, I'm hoping LED DLPs can do something like dark frame insertion without losing CR (since they can turn the LEDs off).

I'm not sure about cutting things to half, but that depends largely on how much of the time is left dark. I'm not sure that it is every other frame, or 50%. With 24Hz displayed at 96Hz or 120Hz it seems like they could just have it be dark 25% or 20% of the time, but I don't know how much that would do compared to having things be dark longer.

I would love to test the dark frame insertion feature with some different material, but I don't know of anybody in my area with a VW200. Hopefully I'll get to see the VW70 or VW80 locally.

--Darin

I think the reason I didn't notice any difference was I believe our eyes can't distinguish and adjust to such fast changes. Its like going from a well lit room to the lights suddenly being turned off. For a few second(not ms!) it takes our eyes time to be able to adjust from the sensation of pitch black nothingness to the point where we can start to make out some details in the darkness. Same principle at work here I feel.

Like I said, the VW80 has stronger blacks and subjective punch in its brighter scenes. Shadow detail is also better I noticed. I lost nothing by switching the dark frame insertion on except that motion was noticeably improved.

Wouldn't dark frame insertion cut the on/off contrast ratio in half? Black would still show as black as the pj can get but white would show white that is half as bright due to the inclusion of one white frame and one black frame. Am I missing something here? Its not like the bulb shuts off or is blocked when there is a black frame, the projector just projects black as black as it can.

I don't know how Sony has implemented dark frame insertion but I think the right way to do it is to make full use of fast panel response so that only a portion of the frame is set to black. The trick is determining the proper percentage of the frame that should be black. Too much and flicker may be apparent, too little and it doesn't accomplish anything as far as S&H motion blur is concerned. Unfortunately sub-frame insertion can't be done in a external STB/VP and most be done in the display device.

Fwiw, I was at Best Buy/Magnolia a few days ago and checked out the latest gen LCD Flat Panels that use LED illumination and LAD. I was blown away by the pop of some of these panels. I personally haven't seen much benefit to high ANSI in FPTV setups but with extremely high ANSI the images blew me away. Almost so good as to be unrealistic. Anyway, I believe it was the Samsung that has black frame insertion and 120hz refresh and it looked terrible. Watching the movie cars, slow pans looked the same as my RS1 but in fast pans (race scenes) there was something resembling judder rather than a normal blurred motion that I would normally see on a RS1. It may have just been a bad setup at BB though.

Sony talks about Dark Frame Insertion as an enhancement to Motionflow. See here (http://presscentre.sony.eu/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=284&NewsAreaID=2).


Yeah that link confirms that they are using some type of subframe insertion.

We've heard that JVC refreshes each panel with the same image so for example, if a source is set to 24p JVC loads the image twice and uses panel refresh on each image so that the panels are refreshed a total of 4 times (96hz).

From what I've read about LCOS digital backplanes, each frame can be broken up into subframes so you would think that rather than use the refresh scheme above (that uses identical frames), a black subframe could be inserted instead. In other words:

The way JVC does it now with 24p content:
[------source frame1--------][------source frame2---------]...
[--f1--][invert][--f1--][invert][--f2--][invert][--f2--][invert]...

With Dark subframe insertion:
[------source frame1--------][------source frame2---------]...
[--f1--][invert][--f1--][black][--f2--][invert][--f2--][black]...

The source frame is 24hz in this case so black would be inserted 25% of the time and most importantly immediately before frame 2 is loaded. This works out to about 10.4ms of black interval which might be detectable as flicker though. With this scheme however, the subframes (frame,invert,subframe) can be lengthened by equal amounts to reduce the black time by whatever amount is needed.

Exactly mark, the video doesn't have computer guesstimated frames inserted to create a super smooth 60fps TV like look. All you see is the original content but with black frames inserted in some quantity and most likely in a fashion similar to the one you've outlined.

Exactly mark, the video doesn't have computer guesstimated frames inserted to create a super smooth 60fps TV like look. All you see is the original content but with black frames inserted in some quantity and most likely in a fashion similar to the one you've outlined.


What is the Dark Frame Insertion control called in the vw-80 menu?

I found this (http://www.grobi.tv/system/galleries/download/downloads/GROBI-SONY-VPL-VW200-Motionflow-100hz.pdf) powerpoint presentation. I think it explains it all.

What is the Dark Frame Insertion control called in the vw-80 menu?

Its under motionflow but there's different modes, some with frame interpolation, some without and some with different amounts of dark frame frame insertion.

I found this (http://www.grobi.tv/system/galleries/download/downloads/GROBI-SONY-VPL-VW200-Motionflow-100hz.pdf) powerpoint presentation. I think it explains it all.

Even though that's for VW200, its pretty much identical to the options of the VW80 that I remember.

Mark P.
What do you mean by Invert?

What is the Dark Frame Insertion control called in the vw-80 menu?

It's one part of the Motionflow menu and is called Film Projection and the other is Motion Enhance (frame interpolation).

It (Dark Frame Insertion) has 3 settings which allow you to insert a full black frame or a darker copy of the original frame or a slightly brighter one.

It works very well indeed as does Motion Enhance and said by one reviewer at least to be an improvement on the VW200 implementation of these features.

Does anyone have any info on why the vw70 doesn't have these features and also why it is so much more expensive than the vw80 when exchange is considered

At one point I remember hearing that the 70/80 could only refresh at speeds up to 100hz. So it could show 24p at 4 times and pal video at 100. It was postulated that they left motionflow off the 70 because it would be useless if it couldn't do 120hz in north america. Is this in fact true? You'd think they would have increased the speed capability up to a maximum of 120 so that it could have these features for all markets. Seems like a no brainer to me.

Mark P.
What do you mean by Invert?

With LCD's, inversion means that the orientation of the LC molecule is reversed even though the polarization phase remains the same (and greyscale is the same). This allows the molecule to relax which is necessary so that the material isn't damaged. With LCOS the LC uses a vertical (VAN) orientation and I assume even with a VAN the same situation applies although I don't know the exact details.

It may be the case for VAN LCs that all that is needed is to temporarily go back to the pre-tilt (resting) angle followed by a transition back to the same twisted state. In other words the LC molecule orientation may not be reversed just relaxed and then twisted again. If this were the case the term inversion is probably wrong and it would be better to simply say "refresh".

Does anyone have any info on why the vw70 doesn't have these features and also why it is so much more expensive than the vw80 when exchange is considered

At one point I remember hearing that the 70/80 could only refresh at speeds up to 100hz. So it could show 24p at 4 times and pal video at 100. It was postulated that they left motionflow off the 70 because it would be useless if it couldn't do 120hz in north america. Is this in fact true? You'd think they would have increased the speed capability up to a maximum of 120 so that it could have these features for all markets. Seems like a no brainer to me.

Even if that was the case, they could still do DFI and interpolation @ 96hz. I believe I even read somewhere here that all 24p material on the VW200 displays at 96hz.

I found this (http://www.grobi.tv/system/galleries/download/downloads/GROBI-SONY-VPL-VW200-Motionflow-100hz.pdf) powerpoint presentation. I think it explains it all.Very interesting stuff. I especially found the slide about mode 2/3 interesting. As we discussed earlier, putting in black frames should hurt lumens for white and also on/off CR. But this technique in mode 2/3 takes a different approach. It took me a little bit to figure out what they were doing, so I'll explain it in case anybody else is interested and doesn't already know or see it as obvious from the slide. Considering 2 frames for each original, basically they don't do any dark insertion for 100 IRE pixels. Those still get driven like normal in both frames. But for things just dimmer than 100 IRE, but not down to 50% light level, they drive them full in one frame and then partial in the other. For things under the 50% light level they drive them all in one frame and then have them be black in the other.

Looking at it another way, if 100 IRE is around 10 ft-lamberts off the screen then 5 ft-lamberts off the screen corresponds to about 75 IRE (because of gamma). In the first frame of 2 (the bright frame) a 100 IRE object gets driven to the same level as before, or about 5 ft-lamberts worth of light and a 75 IRE object gets driven the same level (5 ft-lamberts). An object that is supposed to be about 2.5 ft-lamberts total gets those 2.5 ft-lamberts in this bright frame. Then in the next frame (the dark frame) the 100 IRE object gets another 5 ft-lamberts, an object that is supposed to be 8 ft-lamberts total gets 3 more (to go with the 5 it got in the bright frame), the 75 IRE object doesn't get any more (it already got the 5 it needed) and the object that is supposed to be 2.5 ft-lamberts also didn't get any more since it already got 2.5 ft-lamberts worth.

Looking at this case it seems that the tradeoff is no loss of light level or on/off CR, but the sample-and-hold effect still applies to 100 IRE objects. And objects between half as bright as 100 IRE and 100 IRE get a reduced effect of dark frame insertion. An object that is supposed to be 80% of the light level of 100 IRE (so a little over 90 IRE) looks like it would have the following ft-lamberts for these different cases (considering 2 frames or 2 flashes of the same frame each way and assuming 10 ft-lamberts normally for 100 IRE):

No dark frame insertion: 4 + 4
Mode 1 of dark frame insertion: 4 + 0
Mode 2/3 of dark frame insertion: 5 + 3

The same way of looking at it for 100 IRE would be:

No dark frame insertion: 5 + 5
Mode 1 of dark frame insertion: 5 + 0
Mode 2/3 of dark frame insertion: 5 + 5

And about 75 IRE:

No dark frame insertion: 2.5 + 2.5
Mode 1 of dark frame insertion: 2.5 + 0
Mode 2/3 of dark frame insertion: 5 + 0

The above is from looking at page 4 and doesn't take into account the grid stuff on page 6 for mode 2 and mode 3.

I've thought for a while that judder type issues seemed worse with brighter objects to my eyes and so mode 2/3 may lose some of the benefit where it is needed most, but also looks like it might be a nice trade-off instead of reducing both the white level and the on/off CR.

I hope that makes sense.

--Darin

Why is the VW80 available everywhere except the U.S.?

I heard the VW80 is not available in the US because it would undermine sales of the VW200. I know some have said that doesn't make sense because the VW200 is also available in the VW80 markets.

Maybe Sony sells way more VW200 units in the US than around the world and wants to protect the VW200 US market?

The folks at Mack said they would provide a warranty on an internationally bought VW80 and service it in the US.

So, as soon Australia gets enough VW80 product in the pipeline, some of the dealers that can sell/ship to the US might have some brisk Yank business. :D

I haven't grasped why dark frame insertion would hurt on/off CR.
Surely by introducing a black frame all that will be hurt is brightness (25% lower, but probably perceived as less loss), but I can't see why it would change any type of contrast.

DFI is one of the main reasons I haven't jumped in with any of the current/new projectors. Having seen the Australian price for the VW80, I'm very tempted.

I know Jeff mentioned the DI artefacts, but I have a feeling that the native/static on/off of the VW80 will be sufficient to make these less of an issue than they are with current LCD models and older Sony's.

I'm also confused by the refresh rate of the dark frames. I'd guessed something like this...
[--f1--][--f1--][--f1--][dark][--f2--][--f2--][--f2--][dark][--f3--]etc
But wouldn't this give us a 24hz flicker. Many VW200 users were guessing that the flicker was more like 48Hz - in order to match the gate of a film projector.

Any more thoughts?

I haven't grasped why dark frame insertion would hurt on/off CR.
Surely by introducing a black frame all that will be hurt is brightness (25% lower, but probably perceived as less loss), but I can't see why it would change any type of contrast.

DFI is one of the main reasons I haven't jumped in with any of the current/new projectors. Having seen the Australian price for the VW80, I'm very tempted.

I know Jeff mentioned the DI artefacts, but I have a feeling that the native/static on/off of the VW80 will be sufficient to make these less of an issue than they are with current LCD models and older Sony's.

I'm also confused by the refresh rate of the dark frames. I'd guessed something like this...
[--f1--][--f1--][--f1--][dark][--f2--][--f2--][--f2--][dark][--f3--]etc
But wouldn't this give us a 24hz flicker. Many VW200 users were guessing that the flicker was more like 48Hz - in order to match the gate of a film projector.

Any more thoughts?

I'm not an expert at this but I would have thought on/off contrast would be affected since a dark frame can't make a black screen any darker but it would affect a full white screen.

I'm not an expert at this but I would have thought on/off contrast would be affected since a dark frame can't make a black screen any darker but it would affect a full white screen.

Oh - I see - dumb moment! It's a projected dark frame, so it's not actually black. I understand now. Thanks for that.
So unless they've got an iris which can clamp down 100% just for that frame and then react normally the rest of the time, it's going to hurt on/off.

I haven't heard anyone complain about this with the VW200, so I wonder whether there is some difference in perception when the level of white is changed in this way. Interesting stuff.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q18/PhotoWorks_photos/DSCN1379.jpg

Since, I had a similar experience as the OP, I would like to offer my opinion on the comparison of those two projectors.
Two weeks ago, Athens had its annual A/V High End Show, where we (the Greek A/V forum www.avclub.gr) had a booth where we did set up a system consisting of a Pioneer Kuro projector (RS-2/HD-100 clone), color corrected by a Lumagen Radiancexd with an HTPC as BR source (the screen was 90' gain 1.0). We also had as a surpise for our members, a brief presentation of the Sony vw-80 which lasted 4 hours (then we had to five away the Sony). Now, we did not do an A-B comparison and we did not have time to measure the new Sony (it was a show after all..) but we did see the exact same scenes with both projectors, so I have a fair impression of how they might compare.
The Sony was by far the best Sony I have ever seen. It should rival, even exceed it bigger brother VW-200. Is it better than the RS-2? Not in every area, no:
-Out of the box, its color was oversaturated but not offending. It was of course way less accurate than the color corrected Kuro.
- Its sharpness was on par with the JVC, maybe worse (only a A-B can tell you that for sure).
-Its convergence was very good.
-Its brightness was good but not for more than 110', it was brighter though than the Kuro we had (with 50 hours).
-Its absolute black level with the dynamic iris on, was amazing, maybe even better than the Kuro/RS2! But, compared to the Kuro in the dark scenes like Van Helsing chapter 2 (The Notre Damme sequence) or U-571 submarine scenes, it was clearly lacking due to the limitations of the contrast created by a dynamic iris VS the native RS-2 contrast. With the Kuro/RS-2 the bright elements of the scene (like the lights inside the submarine) were..bright not a bit dimmed as with the Sony. So, I felt that the Kuro had a clear advantage on those scenes.
-About the motion-image fludity: The Sony had 3 settings: Motion Flow off, low and High. With the motion flow off, the Sony's motion was not good at all, in fact it was way worse than any other Sony we had reviewed in the past. We suspect that they might did it on purpose, just to show-off their Motion Flow system, but who knows,.. Contrary, the Kuro/Lumagen combo, had an excellent image fluidity in scenes like the Van Helsing Notre Damme sequence (notice the slow panning of the camera in front of the church).
Now, with the motion flow on, everything changes! The image is becoming super-fluid, almost aerie, like it was filmed on HD video! In fact, when you select the High setting of Motion Flow, it is too fluid, therefore unacceptable (to my eyes at least) as it looses the cinematic feeling and also you can spot some artifacts in fast camera movements. A good compromise is the Motion Flow low setting, where you have a really fluid image but without the side-effects I mentioned. If I had to choose between the Sony with this setting and a projector with good image motion/fluidity, I would probably choose the latter. Of course if you watch a lot of sports then this option (motionflow) is very welcomed!
Those are my first impressions. Of course we will probably have this projector for test in the future, and when we do I will revert with more info.

Nice objective comparison showing the merits of both projectors.

Nice objective comparison showing the merits of both projectors.

OT: How is that objective? :-)

OT: How is that objective? :-)

Well I try to be objective, at least.. In any case, that was my honest opinion on what I saw. It might partially change though, when I have a lot of time to play with the new Sony (it is almost impossible to be certain on a projector's performance by seeing it only for a couple of hours).

P.S. Thanks Jeffy.

OT: How is that objective? :-)

For me the meaning of objective is "Free of personal bias and opinion"

I thought he was being objective, but maybe I'm biased. :D

For me the meaning of objective is "Free of personal bias and opinion"

I thought he was being objective, but maybe I'm biased. :D

No prob., everything is fine :)

To my it just sounds funny when personal views and reviews etc. are stated at being objective. If we define subjective by saing that it is something defined by humans, a subject's perspective. Then objective is subjective by it's nature because objectivity was invented by humans and thus subject's perscpective.
= there is no such thing as unbiased view.

Back to business!
-Fkuti

-Its absolute black level with the dynamic iris on, was amazing, maybe even better than the Kuro/RS2! But, compared to the Kuro in the dark scenes like Van Helsing chapter 2 (The Notre Damme sequence) or U-571 submarine scenes, it was clearly lacking due to the limitations of the contrast created by a dynamic iris VS the native RS-2 contrast. With the Kuro/RS-2 the bright elements of the scene (like the lights inside the submarine) were..bright not a bit dimmed as with the Sony. So, I felt that the Kuro had a clear advantage on those scenes.

No real surprises here. With the iris clamped all the way down the white level will be choked. There is no free lunch.

Regarding dark frame insertion, when I had the opportunity to see the VW200 it defnitely hurt the brightness. There were two DFI modes available, one dimmed the image severely the other less so, but still visible. I found the VW200 too dim for a 124 inch wide display to begin with, so it made things only worse. I did like motion flow in low mode though. The high mode was too fluid. The long steadycam scenes from "children of men" felt like the camera was suspended on rubber bands and the operator was drunk.

After nearly two years with my Dreambee I too dislike the motion blur and am looking for a replacement. The RS20 for all its enhancements will most certainly be no better in this regard. The VW80 will trade motion artifacts for iris artifacts, aside from that Sony Germany apparently managed to piss of most of the dealers here, so I wouldn't even know where to get it.

regards,
Gregor

Its brightness was good but not for more than 110', it was brighter though than the Kuro we had (with 50 hours).

Takisot,

What was your throw distance? I'll be pairing the VW80 with a 118" diagonal screen (104" wide x 58" high) at the shortest end of the throw (approximately 13'), and I don't think brightness will be an issue (light controlled room). What do you think?

I like how people are comparing the RS1/HD100 now 2 years old) and Sony's newest VW80...or how they compare last year's RS2 to the VW80.

The true contest will be comparing current models...especially considering how Sony went UP in price and the JVC's latest -- RS20 -- is several thousands cheaper.

I like how people are comparing the RS1/HD100 now 2 years old) and Sony's newest VW80...or how they compare last year's RS2 to the VW80.

The true contest will be comparing current models...especially considering how Sony went UP in price and the JVC's latest -- RS20 -- is several thousands cheaper.

That would be ture if the RS20 was more then just a ~RS2 with CMS.

Not saying thats a bad thing, but is about what the viewing of the VW80 and RS20 would have been.

That would be ture if the RS20 was more then just a ~RS2 with CMS.

Not saying thats a bad thing, but is about what the viewing of the VW80 and RS20 would have been.

The RS20 has multiple new components.

I like how people are comparing the RS1/HD100 now 2 years old) and Sony's newest VW80...or how they compare last year's RS2 to the VW80.

The true contest will be comparing current models...especially considering how Sony went UP in price and the JVC's latest -- RS20 -- is several thousands cheaper.

+1 Thank you...ya "just took the words right outta my mouth." This point is just soooo obvious.

As for the Sony VW-200, someone said that they never heard that the VW-200 had a "light problem," but it has been reviewed stating such (not severe but noted as being a bit limited w/ neutral gain screens and over 120".

I like how people are comparing the RS1/HD100 now 2 years old) and Sony's newest VW80...or how they compare last year's RS2 to the VW80.

The true contest will be comparing current models...especially considering how Sony went UP in price and the JVC's latest -- RS20 -- is several thousands cheaper.The RS2 and HD100 are the same machine.

The RS20 has multiple new components.

Not affecting image quality except the CMS, and the ability to get a darker image (iris) with a bit more contrast.

Not affecting image quality except the CMS, and the ability to get a darker image (iris) with a bit more contrast.

Not true, the lens is sharper which affects image quality but the biggest difference is the lack of digital noise in dark images.

+1 Thank you...ya "just took the words right outta my mouth." This point is just soooo obvious.What is the downside of comparing real products that people like takisot have access to? A lot of us are familar with the RS2/HD100/KURO so a comparison against it is very usefull.

As for the Sony VW-200, someone said that they never heard that the VW-200 had a "light problem," but it has been reviewed stating such (not severe but noted as being a bit limited w/ neutral gain screens and over 120".Any reviewer who stated that the VW200 has a "light problem" is clueless. The VW200 outputs maximum ~650 lumens d65 calibrated, go from there.

OT: How is that objective? :-)AVS translation: The review is closer to my personal opinion of a projector I have likely not ever seen so it is more objective.:D

Not true, the lens is sharper which affects image quality but the biggest difference is the lack of digital noise in dark images.

I thought the thread came to the conclusion that the Enhanced grain issue is still there. If this has been fixed along with digital noise in dark images, then you may be correct in the fact the RS20 is a good upgrade over the RS2.

But that finally puts them on par in terms of noise as many other manufactures.

Very interesting stuff. I especially found the slide about mode 2/3 interesting. As we discussed earlier, putting in black frames should hurt lumens for white and also on/off CR. But this technique in mode 2/3 takes a different approach. It took me a little bit to figure out what they were doing, so I'll explain it in case anybody else is interested and doesn't already know or see it as obvious from the slide.


Yeah that slide confused me too. Thanks for your explanation, I understand it now and it blows me away what they are doing. In essence no unmodified frame of the original source is displayed, just one that is gamma boosted and another that is gamma reduced. This is novel idea and I'll bet Sony or somebody else has patented it. The gamma processing also has to interact with the DI gamma so the final result will be a mix of the two.

All in all, it seems like mode2/3 has the potential for more artifacts and in particular having part of an image being blurred and other parts benefitting from S&H. I could see how this could create problems with some content.

Going back to mode1, they are using 2 equal sized subframes with one of them being black. I can see how this can hurt perceived brightness and also introduce 60hz flicker. 50% off time may not be needed to reduce S&H so you would think that they could reduce the off time. If so this mode could end up being better than mode 2/3. I guess it all comes down to implementation specifics.

I've thought for a while that judder type issues seemed worse with brighter objects to my eyes and so mode 2/3 may lose some of the benefit where it is needed most, but also looks like it might be a nice trade-off instead of reducing both the white level and the on/off CR.


Yup exactly. If Mode1 could be improved with less off time it might have the least artifacting and have better perceived brightness. Interesting stuff though. I have to hand it to Sony they are definitely leaders in gamma processing.

Nice objective comparison showing the merits of both projectors.

+2. I'd really like to see the VW-80 or VW-200 sometime.

That would be ture if the RS20 was more then just a ~RS2 with CMS.

Not saying thats a bad thing, but is about what the viewing of the VW80 and RS20 would have been.

SOWK,
I just have to laugh at the manner in which you have pretty consistently demeaned the attributes of the JVC RS-20 (Jesus reference... and then that it has really little change from RS-1, etc., etc.) and those that are excited abut the prospect of a dandy FP (hey, if someone can't get excited about a ~$7000. purchase, they should keep their Mastercard in their wallet !:D )
BUT THEN...hedge your bet on almost every entry with an obligatory "toe-in-the-sand"..."but I'm not saying that it isn't a good FP !"
We use to say back in school that folks with your point of view were "killjoys." They'd pull something or someone down, and then just in case that something turned out well, they'd say "Well I'm not saying...."
Isn't it established that YOU have never seen this RS-20 yourself? The last point that you have used is "that would be ture (sic) if the RS-20 was more then (sic) just a ~RS-2 (is THIS ~ some sort of hedged-qualification?) with CMS?" CMS is NOT "just." JUST ask some of the RS-1/2 owners that comisserated about the off-color. CNET said that if it were not for the off-color of these aforementioned units, it would be somewhat on the order of world-class. I think you have stated your opinion to the point of crystal-clarity that you have some resentment toward JVC and apparently those that are a little excited about an improved unit at a fair price. OK, OK...this is NOT the "Second Coming." Gotcha. But besides the CMS, there are a few modest improvements, that taken collectively, apparently make for a more pleasing picture...and THAT is what folks are looking for. We pay A LOT to get incremental improvements in this hobby. Is the Panny 3000 3-4X "worse" than the RS-20? "Worth" depends on the guy with the credit card in his hand.
So thanks for WARNING us about the RS-20 (but it's a pretty good unit :rolleyes:) Gotcha. Point taken.

What is the downside of comparing real products that people like takisot have access to? A lot of us are familar with the RS2/HD100/KURO so a comparison against it is very usefull.

No, I agree with you...a point of reference with units folks are familiar with. But I sense that beyond this, we need to acknowledge that comparing the RS1/2 to a NEW unit ( by two years ?) and more $$$, it is certainly apples-to-oranges. Oh, and despite SOWK's issue of the RS-20 being very little different than the RS-1/2, I'll believe with others that there WILL be a "significant enough" difference as to make this a credible upgrade...OK, evolutionary, not revolutionary as someone used that phrase aptly.

No, I agree with you...a point of reference with units folks are familiar with. But I sense that beyond this, we need to acknowledge that comparing the RS1/2 to a NEW unit ( by two years ?) and more $$$, it is certainly apples-to-oranges. Oh, and despite SOWK's issue of the RS-20 being very little different than the RS-1/2, I'll believe with others that there WILL be a "significant enough" difference as to make this a credible upgrade...OK, evolutionary, not revolutionary as someone used that phrase aptly.

Well the comparison isn't the latest Sony vs the latest JVC. It's just two specific models (HD100 and VW80 in this case), so you have to take it for what it's worth. Even new and old tech comparisons like an RS1 vs RS2 can be worthwhile so long as a person takes it for what it's worth. As is the case with any review there are also deviations between different units and the reviewers themselves have different perceptual abilities (like RBE sensitivity) so you always have to take these and other comparisons with a grain of salt.

Pass the salt, please.;)

+1

Any reviewer who stated that the VW200 has a "light problem" is clueless. The VW200 outputs maximum ~650 lumens d65 calibrated, go from there.
Have you seen one in action?

Takisot,

What was your throw distance? I'll be pairing the VW80 with a 118" diagonal screen (104" wide x 58" high) at the shortest end of the throw (approximately 13'), and I don't think brightness will be an issue (light controlled room). What do you think?
I don't think that the Sony would be a light cannon, but since you have a dark room, it should be OK. In the show, we were throwing 90 inches from a distance of 4,5 meters (if I recall correctly).

Have you seen one in action?Several times. My neighbor just installed one to replace his Q004, that's where the 650 lumens measurement comes from.

Several times. My neighbor just installed one to replace his Q004, that's where the 650 lumens measurement comes from.

According to Cine4Home, I think the issue is that it shed lumens very rapidly and markedly. I think I remember Ekkehart posting that after a short period of time he had around 300 lumensv left.

I don't think that the Sony would be a light cannon, but since you have a dark room, it should be OK. In the show, we were throwing 90 inches from a distance of 4,5 meters (if I recall correctly).

that's about 2 feet further than i'm going to be throwing. thanks for the reply.

....There will even be more contrast and color comparisons as soon as the LED driven DLP arrives.....

Digital projectors are kinda like women...there is always going to be a sexier one coming around the corner, so be happy with the one you have at home. At least you know what you have gotten yourself into..

At least you know what you have gotten yourself into..

literally, figuratively, metaphorically, esoterically, philosophically, metaphysically, biblically...

According to Cine4Home, I think the issue is that it shed lumens very rapidly and markedly. I think I remember Ekkehart posting that after a short period of time he had around 300 lumensv left.CW has always been that The xenon bulbs lose output quicker than UHP. The reality is that all bulbs are likely to lose 40% to 50% output over their lifetime, we should plan for that fact. My Ruby (xenon) is down 40% at 800 hours, my 12KII is (UHP) down 40% at 250 hours! Several members who have measured their UHP lamps have reported even faster/lower loss of output.

"literally, figuratively, metaphorically, esoterically, philosophically, metaphysically, biblically..."

Yes, subjectively

I haven't seen this kind of fussing since I left the yahoo stock board for GM today!

Wouldn't dark frame insertion cut the on/off contrast ratio in half? Black would still show as black as the pj can get but white would show white that is half as bright due to the inclusion of one white frame and one black frame. Am I missing something here? Its not like the bulb shuts off or is blocked when there is a black frame, the projector just projects black as black as it can.

I doubt it cuts these things in half because the response rate of the chip isn't fast enough. This is why we have blurring to begin with :)

I doubt it cuts these things in half because the response rate of the chip isn't fast enough. This is why we have blurring to begin with :)

I thought that too but its not the case.

Our eye's are crap and don't take kindly to the way these digital panels draw their information.

I got a call from the dealer this evening telling me his demo HD350 arrived today. Its not the 750 but I might just go down and compare to the VW80 since the store isn't far away.

Yea, that would be good, but remember, that is almost like comparing a Honda Civic with a Toyota Camry, instead of the Honda Accord. The RS-20 is THE comparison to the VW-70. ;)

The HD750 are expected early to mid December. The HD350 is apparently a better machine than the HD100 for less money so it will be interesting to see. I'm not sure that's true because I have a feeling it uses the panels out of the HD1 rather than the newer ones used in the HD100 and HD750. Anyone know for sure?

I have to say I'm a little put off the VW80 and SXRD in general after reading of all the colour shading/uniformity issues. Depending on how good the HD750 is compared to the H100 I already have then it may very well become a contender as well as VW80.

I have to say I'm a little put off the VW80 and SXRD in general after reading of all the colour shading/uniformity issues..

Well, you shouldn't be. There is hardly any real evidence the SXRD panels have a problem outside of RPTV applications.

If we know anything, it's HEAT can potentially contribute to the SXRD longevity, so make sure you use the proper fan mode for your altitude and keep the filter clean.

Besides, any uniformity issues that might develop could be adjusted using the service mode GAMMA menu.

As a tweaker by nature, my experience may apply to the VW80 and other SXRD projectors using Dark Frame Insertion:

I've owned the Sony 50a3000 for about a year (the last SXRD TVs that Sony made), and its features also include Motionflow (120hz frame interpolation), and MotionEnhancer (Dark Frame Insertion), so hopefully this provides more insight into these features.

After experimenting with DFI for almost a year, I can say its a most useful feature for eliminating "sample and hold" effect thats created by the way our eyes/brain perceive things. For gaming, I leave this feature On, set to Mode 1. This mode inserts a darker version of the frame as Darin explained, yet the picture only appears to be approx. 10 to 15% darker overall, and brightness can be turned up to compensate for this quite easily IMO . Without it, I don't know if I could game on an LCOS without getting sick. There is also Mode 2, which darkens the picture a bit too much for my taste, and appears more like 30 to 40% loss in brighness. Compensating for this can be tricky, so I stick to mode 1 instead.

For 24fps content and bluray, its really a toss up. S & H effect is not as noticable here, or atleast not very objectionable to my eyes, so I generally don't use DFI in movies, unless its a show like 24 or like-shows with shaky cams.

Since I game a lot, and watch a lot of Ice Hockey (that little puck moves very fast), DFI is essential to me, and if you combine this with a mild setting of Frame Interpolation ('Standard' on the A3000), then motion appears crystal clear as the OP described, and even better to my eyes than Plasma and definately better than LCD based sets.

Hope that helps a bit.

P.S. To the person doing the Athens Shootout, it seems you may have been testing 120 hz frame interpolation, and not DFI, because DFI certainly does not create a video look (which I hate too), DFI if anything creates a more classic film projector look.

A little review:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2008/10/02/Sony-Bravia-VPL-VW80-SXRD-Projector/p1

Hmm, it seems VPL-VW70 (US model) actually is VPL-VW80 (EUR model), at least I found ppl refering VPL-VW70 as VPL-VW80 (and vice versa).

I might be wrong... but the spec is just the same. :rolleyes:

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665533555

Gradius, if you'll check the VW80 specs, it has Motionflow and Dark Frame Insertion, which is absent on the VW70.

http://www.sony.com.au/homecinema/homecinema/catalog/product.jsp?id=VPLVW80&section=prod&term=vplvw80

I just talked to a dealer yesterday, and he informed me that they were, in fact, the same thing. He had just spoken to a sony rep who said the 70 is the US equivalent to the 80, DFI and 120hz included. They still dont have a display model yet, so Ill know for sure next week, unless someone else finds out first.

cool. keep us posted.

Sony Canada just put the 70 on there site and they make no mention of DFI or 120hz. Also they took the 60 off the site so I am guessing it has been discontinued, which if you ask me leaves a price gap open from the HW10 to the VPL-VW70. I still think the 70 should be the 60's MSRP

Two great links for the VW80 owners manual and a .pdf brochure on the SXRD projector family. Enjoy

http://www.aboutprojectors.com/pdf/sony-vpl-vw80-manual.pdf
http://www.aboutprojectors.com/pdf/sony-vpl-vw80-specs.pdf

It looks the VW80 has a more precise RGB convergence capability.

It has a level of red/blue panel adjustment that moves the entire panel like the HW10. But it also has a level of adjustment for a region of the screen. So it looks like vertical/horizonal size errors or more severe panel irregularities can be adjusted. Very cool. This might be handy to correct chromatic aberration of an anamorphic lens as you move out toward the screen edges. Hmmmm...

:)

Hey again,

I mentioned a week or so ago that the same dealer where I viewed the VW80 and had just received their HD350 demo model. I had no intention of buying a HD350 but wanted to gauge what to expect from the HD750 and decide if its worth holding back until I can demo that machine or just go ahead and get the VW80.

When I compared the VW80 I took down my own HD100 for comparison but that wasn't possible this time because its now been sold. I'll keep this brief but from spending a short time with the HD350 I'd say its almost identical in performance to the HD100. I was surprised how quiet it was too, better than the old models and and about the same as the VW80 which is a quiet machine too. Can't say I care for the iris, I played around with it and found that the closed position allowed comparable blacks to the HD100 with about the same brightness. When its fully open the project is very bright on a 96" screen! Black levels suffered badly though and looked definitely grey on very dark or black scenes. Keep the iris closed for anything under 100" until the bulb dims significantly.

Downsides; The HD350 still has cartoon colours as I call it. No better and no worse than the HD100. HD750 will fix this. No change in motion handling between the new JVC and the old one. I have a very strong feeling that the HD750 will do nothing to improve this either.

Anyway I said I'd be brief but since I was projector-less after selling the HD100 and I'm confident that the HD750 still has the same motion blur that I've seen on the HD1/HD100/HD350, I went ahead and came away with a VW80.

We watched Indiana Jones IV last night - everyone agree its an awesome machine. Looking forward to putting it through its paces over Christmas.

How was the contrast of the image between the VW80 and the 350? I guess in bright scenes they might be equal, but dark scenes should look different. I'm interested in the VW80 for it's lack of motion blur via dark frame insertion also.

How was the contrast of the image between the VW80 and the 350? I guess in bright scenes they might be equal, but dark scenes should look different. I'm interested in the VW80 for it's lack of motion blur via dark frame insertion also.

If I turn the iris off on the VW80 the contrast is behind the HD100 but maybe almost as good as my old HD1. With the iris on its has slightly better black level than the HD100 on fade to black but slightly worse on low light scenes. In bright scenes the VW80 beats the HD100 by a small amount. All this is going on what I saw in a side by side comparison and from what I'm seeing now at home. The VW80 has better colours once you dial them back a little. I've booked calibration for the end of next week and expect a nice improvement because I know its still too saturated and pushed toward red but even so its better than the HD100 or HD350.

The iris implementation on the Sony is very good and I've been looking for tests to trip it up. I found one but its still only barely noticeable if your looking for it - full black to full white field.

The dark frame insertion is a huge leap forward for me, without it this is the same as the JVC's - poor. With it on things are greatly improved. I leave the awful frame insertion off though, its a useless gimmick and makes films feel cheaply made somehow.

The dark frame insertion is a huge leap forward for me, without it this is the same as the JVC's - poor. With it on things are greatly improved. I leave the awful frame insertion off though, its a useless gimmick and makes films feel cheaply made somehow.

So you like it...but you don't like it????

The dark frame insertion is the only "120hz" processing mode I could possible see being useful as well. Completely agree on the frame interpolation being gimmicky.

So you like it...but you don't like it????

Like it.

I leave the dark frame insertion on all the time otherwise I might have well kept the HD100 which I didn't like.

The VW80 has better colours once you dial them back a little.

Do you run the VW80 in wide color and then dial back the master color control or the individual colors in RCP?

So you like it...but you don't like it????

I guess it is motion flow that he dislike.

The dark frame insertion is a huge leap forward for me, without it this is the same as the JVC's - poor. With it on things are greatly improved. I leave the awful frame insertion off though, its a useless gimmick and makes films feel cheaply made somehow.

That's very interesting. Without the dark frame insertion on, it's the same motion blur as the JVC, and probably most other projectors. I hope this catches on with other manufacturers.

Remember that the blur in this context differs from person to person (in the same way rainbows do), so it might not be an issue on the JVC for most. However after having spent some time with some sample&hold displays recently it is something that I would like to improve for me personally.

^
Absolutely. I see no motion blur on my RS1 what-so-ever, but rainbows drive me crazy within 30 seconds of viewing a DLP.

Wouldn't if be funny if we found an inverse correlation between Rainbows and Blur!

Congrats Shinobiwan. Sounds like an excellent projector you've got there!

Wouldn't if be funny if we found an inverse correlation between Rainbows and Blur!

I see it all: Rainbows, motion blur, you name it. I am even one of those who have seen image break up on 3 chip DLPs! Yeah, it wasn't supposed to happen with 3 chippers but once some of us mentioned it, a technical discussion on AVS ensued and it came out that 3 chip technology, while not producing strictly the same rainbow artifacts, is not immune to similar motion artifacts. Hey, I wasn't just "seeing things."

I used to stand in front of the wall of CRTs at, say, a best buy and any CRTs that weren't directly in front of me would flicker quite a bit (our peripheral vision is better at picking up motion than our central vision). It would be like a giant "wall of flicker" which is one reason my plasma, when I bought it years ago, was so relaxing to watch.

I think I can spot some motion blur issues with the JVC RS1/RS2 projectors. But I sometimes seem to see it in other projectors too so it's hard to know for sure. I did spend a long time viewing an RS1 at a forum member's house once and didn't notice any blur then. But since then I think I may have noticed a bit when viewing the JVCs in some stores. It's my only
(minor) worry about going with the JVC at the moment. But I can't stand
most motion adaptation implementations on displays (to get rid of blur) and
I seem to get along fine with an old Panasonic AE900 for now (which, I think, has some bur too).

Wouldn't if be funny if we found an inverse correlation between Rainbows and Blur!

Its funny you should mention this but part of the susceptibility of blur using constantly driven display tech such DILA, SXRD and LCD is something called persistence of vision and it eye/brain phenomenon.

People with high persistence of vision are more likely to see blur but not rainbows. Think about it and you'll see why.

Its funny you should mention this but part of the susceptibility of blur using constantly driven display tech such DILA, SXRD and LCD is something called persistence of vision and it eye/brain phenomenon.

People with high persistence of vision are more likely to see blur but not rainbows. Think about it and you'll see why.

Yes, I understand this - that's why I mentioned it (guess I didn't make it clear). The only problem is I already know of people who see both. I guess it could be a trend (people who see one don't see the other) but not a rule.
Edit: I've yet to be annoyed by rainbows, but then I haven't lived with a DLP. I can see them when looking for them. I can also see blur, but then I've spent longer in front of a LCD recently than I have a DLP. I currently use a CRT FP and don't have any issues except for tiring tubes :)

I see it all: Rainbows, motion blur, you name it. I am even one of those who have seen image break up on 3 chip DLPs! Yeah, it wasn't supposed to happen with 3 chippers but once some of us mentioned it, a technical discussion on AVS ensued and it came out that 3 chip technology, while not producing strictly the same rainbow artifacts, is not immune to similar motion artifacts. Hey, I wasn't just "seeing things."

I used to stand in front of the wall of CRTs at, say, a best buy and any CRTs that weren't directly in front of me would flicker quite a bit (our peripheral vision is better at picking up motion than our central vision). It would be like a giant "wall of flicker" which is one reason my plasma, when I bought it years ago, was so relaxing to watch.

I think I can spot some motion blur issues with the JVC RS1/RS2 projectors.

I definitely see it and have tuned into it. For me its worse than any of the problems we live with on these machines. Besides films, I noticed it particularly badly when gaming at 60hz on the JVC. Playing a FPS and moving the view around was annoying and disappointed. Looked great static but moderate to fast motion resulted in crud.

All other projectors manufacturers need to take note and continue forward with what Sony has very admirably started in dark frame insertion. The difference it makes is amazing for me, there's still a tiny hint of blur but the amount of detail the image retains when moving quickly is light years better than the JVC. I've been playing Fallout 3 and not a hint of blur.

I wouldn't buy another projector with out this technology or something that achieved the same thing.

Yes, I understand this - that's why I mentioned it (guess I didn't make it clear). The only problem is I already know of people who see both. I guess it could be a trend (people who see one don't see the other) but not a rule.
Edit: I've yet to be annoyed by rainbows, but then I haven't lived with a DLP. I can see them when looking for them. I can also see blur, but then I've spent longer in front of a LCD recently than I have a DLP. I currently use a CRT FP and don't have any issues except for tiring tubes :)

I don't see rainbows unless I flick my eyes around the screen like crazy and high contrast scenes. I've had no tests done or anything like that but I'd say I have high persistence of vision. An example that further reinforces this is when I read white text on a black background for a few minutes and then look away at something else in the room and see white and dark lines for a second or two.

This website is one I've visited often over the years and the one where I first noticed this:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/

If I turn the iris off on the VW80 the contrast is behind the HD100 but maybe almost as good as my old HD1. With the iris on its has slightly better black level than the HD100 on fade to black but slightly worse on low light scenes. In bright scenes the VW80 beats the HD100 by a small amount. ...Those comments mirror my conclusions from a VW200 to RS2 comparison I did recently. I was hoping that the VW70 would be a poor man's VW200. Sony seems to have delivered it in the VW80, the crippled VW70 is a real mystery :(

I love motionflow (on the VW200) for sports. It ceates a "you are right there" feeling that is beyond belief. I evel like it on low for movies even though the 3D effect may be somewhat startling at times. For film buffs DFI is a real win down to the slight film like flicker if you look really hard for it.

Those comments mirror my conclusions from a VW200 to RS2 comparison I did recently. I was hoping that the VW70 would be a poor man's VW200. Sony seems to have delivered it in the VW80, the crippled VW70 is a real mystery :(

I love motionflow (on the VW200) for sports. It ceates a "you are right there" feeling that is beyond belief. I evel like it on low for movies even though the 3D effect may be somewhat startling at times. For film buffs DFI is a real win down to the slight film like flicker if you look really hard for it.

I'm not a sport fan but I can imagine that being a viewing situation where it can add to the experience. For films I much prefer to leave it off. Maybe when movies are done in native 60fps then I will concede but for now I'm stuck on the 'look' of film.

I definitely see it and have tuned into it. For me its worse than any of the problems we live with on these machines. Besides films, I noticed it particularly badly when gaming at 60hz on the JVC. Playing a FPS and moving the view around was annoying and disappointed. Looked great static but moderate to fast motion resulted in crud.

All other projectors manufacturers need to take note and continue forward with what Sony has very admirably started in dark frame insertion. The difference it makes is amazing for me, there's still a tiny hint of blur but the amount of detail the image retains when moving quickly is light years better than the JVC. I've been playing Fallout 3 and not a hint of blur.

I wouldn't buy another projector with out this technology or something that achieved the same thing.

This is very exciting news. Motion blur is VERY ANNOYING to me and really kills my enjoyment of any basketball or hockey game. Can't wait to try the dark frame out!

Out of curiosity, has anyone compared the RS1 to the VW80? or more importantly upgraded ?
Or is this not a fair comparison, given that most are comparing it with the HD100?

I have a HD1 (RS1) and a few things I dislike would be
1. noise, although not bad I think it could be better
2. No power lens adjustments
3. panel colour disformity
4. motion blur
5. over saturated greens

What I truely love about the machine is the contrast, especially in dark scenes.

From what I read the vw80 is an improvement with regards to all the above, but will it give at least as good picture in dark scenes?? with or without the iris??

From what I read the vw80 is an improvement with regards to all the above, but will it give at least as good picture in dark scenes?? with or without the iris??

It's been a fair while since I've seen an RS1 running but I've been using a VW80 for a couple of months now so that would be yes and yes. No idea where you're going to be able to demo one though or even sure if Sony have stock (and at what price).

So the RS20 may not be the Jesus projector?

Nice to know Sony is making good advancements though.

No, that would be the marantz 112 since it is so amazing it blows everything away.:rolleyes:

It is amusing when people with a big bias comment on others being biased....and can't even see it.