I recall reading that the JVC and possibly the Sony projectors had problems with the corners of the screen sometimes, with some units showing brighter (or dimmer) picture in those areas, but, I haven't heard an aweful lot about the colour uniformity of DILA or LCOS projectors being bad, at least not as bad as lcd projectors. Is this true or not? Is either of JVC or Sony better in one area vs another?

I am looking to my next projector, and at the moment, I am deciding between a Mitsubishi HC7000, a DILA JVC RS_ or a Sony SXRD or possibly the top line Epson lcd pj if the convergence and sharpness are good. My main concerns, which will affect my choice and ultimate satisfaction with the projector I chose, are the following areas:

1) Sharpness and convergence
2) Colour uniformity
3) Dust blobs
4) Colour accuracy, gamma and grey scale etc.

Have the last couple of generations of SONY SXRD and JVC DILA projectors had less problems vs lcd projectors when it comes to any of the above issues? I know I am generalizing a bit, but I can't recall for instance that many JVC or SONY lcos pj's have dust blob problems. Are they also better in the other areas?

I think the dust blobs is more an issue with LCD or specifically the panny projectors. I know my Sony has a Sealed light path so no issues.

I am looking to my next projector, and at the moment, I am deciding between a Mitsubishi HC7000, a DILA JVC RS_ or a Sony SXRD or possibly the top line Epson lcd pj if the convergence and sharpness are good. My main concerns, which will affect my choice and ultimate satisfaction with the projector I chose, are the following areas:

1) Sharpness and convergence
2) Colour uniformity
3) Dust blobs
4) Colour accuracy, gamma and grey scale etc.

Any reason you're not looking at DLP? DLPs have perfect convergence (1 chip), uniformity, no dust blobs (sealed optical path). About the only area they don't compete that well (maybe) is black level these days.

I think the dust blobs is more an issue with LCD or specifically the panny projectors. I know my Sony has a Sealed light path so no issues. The previous Mitsubishi models, the HC5000 and HC6000, are prone to dust blobs and one HC7000 owner has reported a dust blob from new and has had it replaced under warranty.:eek:

Any reason you're not looking at DLP? DLPs have perfect convergence (1 chip), uniformity, no dust blobs (sealed optical path). About the only area they don't compete that well (maybe) is black level these days. Not to mention cooling fan noise,rainbows, eyestrain and headaches for some people. Apart from that I love 'em!

Not to mention cooling fan noise

Doesn't every projector have fan noise.

rainbows, eyestrain and headaches for some people.

Some being the operative word. No doubt some are bothered by them, they're definitely in the minority. Rather than starting another rainbow debate, how about letting the OP answer the question.

:rolleyes:

Doesn't every projector have fan noise.



Some being the operative word. No doubt some are bothered by them, they're definitely in the minority. Rather than starting another rainbow debate, how about letting the OP answer the question.

:rolleyes: I was simply stating a few facts for the benefit of the OP in case they have not had first hand experience of DLPs and should be aware of possible pitfalls.
I have just had to give up my beloved Sharp XV-Z21000 (20000 in the US) because of eyestrain.
Every projector does have some fan noise, although the Mitsubishi HC7000 is virtually silent in low lamp mode, but some are noisier than others. DLPs tend to produce more heat and hence require more ventilation. They also use a spinning colour wheel which adds to the noise level.

I was simply stating a few facts for the benefit of the OP in case they have not had first hand experience of DLPs and should be aware of possible pitfalls.

Which is why you should always try and view a projector (at least the same technology) before buying.

I have just had to give up my beloved Sharp XV-Z21000 (20000 in the US) because of eyestrain.

My DLPs have never bothered me, or anyone else who's watched movies on it.

Every projector does have some fan noise, although the Mitsubishi HC7000 is virtually silent in low lamp mode, but some are noisier than others.

Exactly.

DLPs tend to produce more heat and hence require more ventilation.

What's that based on? They use the same sorts of lamps as any other tech, with similar power usage.

They also use a spinning colour wheel which adds to the noise level.

True there is that. Though I'd take a bit of colorwheel noise over convergence issues, uniformity issues, or potentially poor motion handling.

Easy folks...put down your dukes...

I can't do DLP as it causes me headaches.

As far as performance goes, I really want close to perfect colour uniformity and sharpness, but even with those things taken care of, dust blobs will still drive me crazy. Back in the day of importing projectors, I was ok to open mine up and blow out the dust blobs, as I did it several times to 2 or 3 of them, but these days I'm getting to the point where I can't stand getting them at all. It should be totally un-acceptable. It doesn't matter that you can send it in to have them clean it, it shouldn't happen in the first place.

My family is sensitive to rainbows, all 5 of us, but it's the dithering that I hate the most.

Easy folks...put down your dukes...

I can't do DLP as it causes me headaches.

Fair enough, just wanted to make sure you weren't simply ignoring a possible option.

As far as performance goes, I really want close to perfect colour uniformity and sharpness, but even with those things taken care of, dust blobs will still drive me crazy. Back in the day of importing projectors, I was ok to open mine up and blow out the dust blobs, as I did it several times to 2 or 3 of them, but these days I'm getting to the point where I can't stand getting them at all. It should be totally un-acceptable. It doesn't matter that you can send it in to have them clean it, it shouldn't happen in the first place.

Just my $0.02 then, but if I were buying today, and not a DLP, my choice would be either a Sony SXRD or a JVC DiLA. They all have sealed optical paths (no dust blobs). The RS20 would be a the top of the list due to it's phenomenal native contrast (DIs bug me, because they're never 100% transparent).

Fair enough, just wanted to make sure you weren't simply ignoring a possible option.



Just my $0.02 then, but if I were buying today, and not a DLP, my choice would be either a Sony SXRD or a JVC DiLA. They all have sealed optical paths (no dust blobs). The RS20 would be a the top of the list due to it's phenomenal native contrast (DIs bug me, because they're never 100% transparent).

Sealed optical path is great, and that definitely makes me lean more towards the SXRD and DILA's...but...I am impressed with the ANSI contrast ratings of the newest LCD projectors. Are there any tests of the newest JVC RS20?

As far as performance goes, I really want close to perfect colour uniformity and sharpness, but even with those things taken care of, dust blobs will still drive me crazy.

What is your budget?

Do you have a particular projector position that might limit your choices?

If you want excellent uniformity, uniform focus & clarity, perfect convergence, excellent contrast, beautiful color reproduction and a sealed light engine, the new Sony HW10 projector is worth checking out.

While you can read opinions from various AVS members and reviewers, I suggest narrowing down your choice to a couple of projectors and make time to see them.

Happy shopping

Ok. I am making a chart. I am trying to make sense of all the model numbers. I actually haven't decided on the budget yet. It depends on how good the RS20 really is ;)

Sealed optical path is great, and that definitely makes me lean more towards the SXRD and DILA's...but...I am impressed with the ANSI contrast ratings of the newest LCD projectors. Are there any tests of the newest JVC RS20? I haven't seen an ANSI CR figure for the RS20. The RS1 was around 250:1.
The Sony HW10 was measured by Projector Central at 416:1, which is up there with the latest LCD projectors like the Panasonic AE3000 and the Mitsubishi HC7000.

I haven't seen an ANSI CR figure for the RS20. The RS1 was around 250:1.
The Sony HW10 was measured by Projector Central at 416:1, which is up there with the latest LCD projectors like the Panasonic AE3000 and the Mitsubishi HC7000.

Is there anticipation that the ANSI contrast of the RS20 will be higher than the RS1 / RS1x etc? Is it possible it could end up testing anywhere from 250 to 450:1? I'm hoping it is at least comparable to the numbers of the new lcd projectors. If the Sony is up there with it's SXRD you'd think it's highly likely that the top JVC RS20 will be comparable.

(In the last generation, was it not true that the RS1 had a lower black level than the Epson 1080UB? I know they were close, but did the RS1 have a lower black level? Of course, the higher contrast of the JVC made the picture look generally better also, and I suppose it probably added to or had some part in any differences in the black level of the two pj's)

A pre production HD750 (RS20) was measured at around 300:1 ansi contrast. On/Off contrast however is still miles ahead of anything else (accept CRT).

A pre production HD750 (RS20) was measured at around 300:1 ansi contrast. On/Off contrast however is still miles ahead of anything else (accept CRT).

So I guess the 50000:1 ON/OFF does quite a bit for the performance. Can it make up for the lower ANSI (if it indeed has lower ANSI) ?

I haven't seen an ANSI CR figure for the RS20. The RS1 was around 250:1.
The Sony HW10 was measured by Projector Central at 416:1, which is up there with the latest LCD projectors like the Panasonic AE3000 and the Mitsubishi HC7000.

Many of us including Greg R measured the on/off of the RS1 just over 300:1. In my case it was 308:1. I believe cine4home measured about the same on his pre-production RS20.

So I guess the 50000:1 ON/OFF does quite a bit for the performance. Can it make up for the lower ANSI (if it indeed has lower ANSI) ?

On off contast provides better contrast in dark scenes, ansi contrast provides better contast in bright scenes. Coming from CRT I value better contrast in dark scenes more.

cpc,

Just an addenda to JeffY's comment:
If you've the time, take a meander through this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=765552) wherrin a post by Eric Garci references his Intrascene Calculator found here (http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/intrascene.htm). It explores the concept of Simultaneous Contrast wherein both ANSI and On/Off interact to affect Image Quality. It goes a long way to explain why CRTs can provide a reference picture though suffering by current standards, low ANSI.

btw if you've the time and inclination, I hope to have a HW10 in my cellar cinema in the next little while.

ted

Ted,

Nice. I am totally confused with all the Sony numbers. I don't know which is what. After the Pearl and the Black Pearl, I lost count of the model numbers. I am just figuring out the JVC model numbers.

I'm shopping for a projector and also thinking about a plasma for the living room. I'd love to check out your Sony whenever you have it in your setup.

Just bought a Panny AE3000 for my other place replacing the failing Mits HC5000. My comments can be found in this thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1087705
Bright corners on the vw60 was somewhat visible when I first got the projector. Now that I have had nearly 700hrs on it.. the bright corners are not as visible any more. Note that Sony projectors do not do 1080 over component and vga.

Ted,

Nice. I am totally confused with all the Sony numbers. I don't know which is what. After the Pearl and the Black Pearl, I lost count of the model numbers. I am just figuring out the JVC model numbers.

I'm shopping for a projector and also thinking about a plasma for the living room. I'd love to check out your Sony whenever you have it in your setup.

Low end no bells or whistles SXRD but newer BRAVIA engine and suggested panels and it does have a sealed optical block and the lens is supposed to be good. Will be in touch when the dominoes fall.

ted

Low end no bells or whistles SXRD but newer BRAVIA engine and suggested panels and it does have a sealed optical block and the lens is supposed to be good. Will be in touch when the dominoes fall.

ted

I was at a store which had VW60 and HW10 side by side. I saw no visible difference, given the viewing condition was not perfect but images were virtually identical.

I was at a store which had VW60 and HW10 side by side. I saw no visible difference, given the viewing condition was not perfect but images were virtually identical.

That's a good thing thanks. HD Vertical stretch I can outboard (probably a new HTPC) and though the Power goodies might have been welcome my placement is low so no ladders required. I wanted a JVC but life spanked me so low end as things should get interesting around the corner since new light sources beckon.

ted

Anybody else out there with feedback regarding their experience comparing lcd to lcos?

Note that Sony projectors do not do 1080 over component and vga.

my hw10 does 1080 over both component and hdmi.
my old 10ht did 1080 over the component and vga.
according to the manual, 1080 resolutions are not available over the vga for the newer projectors

I'll just reiterate what has been widely said about LCD/LCos/SXRD/D-ILA, and that is projectors have a look associated with their inherent pixel structure and any techniques used to hide structure. Some manufactures leave the image as sharp as possible while others use various techniques to hide the structure. So, the comparison can be then sliced many different ways depending on which projector you observe.

For instance if sliced according to any appearance SDE, and I see the artifact decrease with the following pixel structure approaches... LCD raw/LCD altered/LCos raw/LCos altered

SXRD would fall under the LCos raw category, letting the inherent pixel structure show thru.

Good luck with your research.

The sealed light path and what seems like a complete lack of dust blob issues is one of the main reasons I am attracted to the Sony SXRD and JVC DILA models of LCOS projectors. I am hearing that the new JVC 350 (RS10) has could colour uniformity and lack of bright (dim?) corners. I hope the RS20 (350) is also good in this respect.

Hi cpc,

I have owned LCD, DLP and a D-ILA projector.

I will not even consider buying another LCD projector until someone comes up with a dust-blob free design. Every year we hear that this new filter will do this and that and every year we still have reports of dust blobs.

I like DLP alot but its on/off CR seems stuck in the past. To get an acceptable CR you have to sacrifice lumens. Plus, single chip gives people like you headaches and 3 chip has a price/performance ratio that many people thinks makes it uncompetitive with other products.

I can't say much about the Sonys because I have not seen one recently.

I like the JVCs a lot but they have not been perfect either. I have a RS20 on order and have very high hopes that I will keep it for a long time. If I were you, I would wait and see what the buzz is on the RS10 and RS20 and then make your decision. I can't say for sure but I think I might choose the Sony HW-10 over the RS10 based on the fact that the Sony is pretty good at a lot of things even though the JVC may be much better at some. The Sony is cheaper too, I think. I don't think that the RS20 has much competition at its price point.

Thanks Lawguy. Does the Sony HW-10 have a CMS or at least a colour decoder that isn't too saturated like the RS1 was?

I am pretty sure I have to save up for a projector so I may buy a plasma in the meantime. It's been too long and I have to finish work on the room anyhow. I'm suffering from widescreen withdrawl. It's been 1 and 1/2 years since I've had a regular working home theatre. I don't know the various Sony models of late and how they are ordered amongst themselves and how they compare to the others. I recall the Pearl was a little soft in the beginning? What have you been using lately?

Does the Sony HW-10 have a CMS or at least a colour decoder that isn't too saturated like the RS1 was?

The Sony has RCP for color correction which allows for adjusting saturation and hue. It's not a 3D CMS, but it is helpful for adjusting the wide color mode, to pull back saturation on green and red to be similar to blue.

Thanks Lawguy. Does the Sony HW-10 have a CMS or at least a colour decoder that isn't too saturated like the RS1 was?

I am pretty sure I have to save up for a projector so I may buy a plasma in the meantime. It's been too long and I have to finish work on the room anyhow. I'm suffering from widescreen withdrawl. It's been 1 and 1/2 years since I've had a regular working home theatre. I don't know the various Sony models of late and how they are ordered amongst themselves and how they compare to the others. I recall the Pearl was a little soft in the beginning? What have you been using lately?

I am no expert on the Sonys but I suspect that Bytehoven answered your question.

I sold my RS1 a few months ago after ordering the RS20. I was lucky enough to find an open box Mitsu HC1500 (a 720p DLP) at Best Buy for a ridiculously cheap price and I have been using that.

I am actually impressed with the HC1500. I had some eyestrain to begin with but I got used to watching it. It is sharp, very bright and has a pretty punchy picture. I found that if I watch it with some lights on I don't notice how bad the black levels are (and they are bad).

Well, for starters, I believe the HW10 colour is not as "off" as the RS1 and then the Sony can be adjusted more than the RS1 so I think it's better overall in the colour department. It will be interesting to see how good the RS20 is for brightness and colour uniformity.

Yes, the HD REC709 chart for wide color mode on the HW10 is much better than the JVC. You can find the factory color tracking for wide & normal under 6500k in the HW10 calibration thread's 1st post.

Simply pulling back the master color will dial back the primaries toward the pegs. Like many other projectors, RED is more saturated than BLUE and Green more so then RED, so just a touch of extra desaturation for RED & GREEN in the RCP controls can also be effective. But, you can go all the way to the pegs or you run into the problems associated with 2D CMS. Bringing them back maybe halfway seems to be a reasonable compromise.

Also, you can also use the HUE to make sure primaries & secondaries are atleast in their proper axis/alignment to the gamut.

I have been planning to diving into RCP color tweaks to a greater degree, but I've gotten busy with some video edits. :(

I'd do some tweaks tonight, but I have to start watching the Matrix Trilogy on BD. :D

I should really learn more about colour. I have a very vague understanding of the language.

I should really learn more about colour. I have a very vague understanding of the language.

http://www.normankoren.com/color_management.html
http://www.theasc.com/magazine/jan05/conundrum/index.html
http://www.theasc.com/magazine/april05/conundrum2/index.html
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=586691
http://www.avforums.com/forums/room-acoustics-audio-video-calibration/760012-greyscale-calibration-dummies.html

ted

Were there any LCOS Sony SXRD projectors that had a particularly bad reputation for having less than good uniformity? I remember the original Pearl was ok sometimes and not so great other times? What about the VW40?