Hi. I know the Pioneer Elite is tops. But, comparing the non-elite 5020 to other plasmas, is it still the "best" or does another tv such as the Panasonic 850 compare favorably?

Also, anyone have any experience with the Mitsubishi 246 Diamond Line?

Thanks very much.
Ray

Wrong forum.

I would like a calibrator to answer my question, so I put it under "display calibration", so could you make a suggestion as to which forum is correct? "Wrong Forum" isn't much help, but I do appreciate your answering.
Thank you.

I would like a calibrator to answer my question, so I put it under "display calibration", so could you make a suggestion as to which forum is correct? "Wrong Forum" isn't much help, but I do appreciate your answering.
Thank you.If your question is whether a Panasonic 850u can perform equally or better than a 5020FD, the answer is no.

Greetings

The Samsung Plasma sets will do some things better than the 5020 ... better color accuracy and better gamma performance.

A good bias light behind said TV would also close the gap between the black levels of the two TVs.

Regards

The Samsung Plasma sets will do some things better than the 5020 ... better color accuracy and better gamma performance.Better color point accuracy, sure. Better gamma...what's the criteria? Are we speaking of closest to 2.2 or which one is flatter? If it's the latter, I will have to disagree :)

How about 2.4/2.5 for the gamma target...
Many mastering houses are now using this as the standard. The Samsung's are able to achieve this number. The Pioneer's are maxing out at 2.2.
Because of this, and the fully functional CMS system, I would recommend the Sammy's.

How about 2.4/2.5 for the gamma target...
Many mastering houses are now using this as the standard.Well, they are for CRTs. What is considered the correct gamma for digital fixed pixel displays is still up for grabs IMO. Personally would want a 2.1-2.2 gamma on a fixed pixel display for most living room enviornments (day and evening). Dedicated HTs, 2.25-2.4 depending on peak light output and display capability.

The Pioneer's are maxing out at 2.2.The non-Elites cannot achieve 2.2. The 9G Elits can easily achieve a ruler flat 2.5 gamma.

Because of this, and the fully functional CMS system, I would recommend the Sammy's.I would agree that the Sammys have a much better CMS control suite. However and although the Pioneer Elite's CMS is severly crippled, any improvements with their color points using a CMS with with full blow luminance, hue, and saturation controls would fall in the "diminishing returns" category as currently the dEs are below 2.

The 9G Elits can easily achieve a ruler flat 2.5 gamma.

2.5? How are you achieving this?

2.5? How are you achieving this?9 point gamma controls.

So the rumors are true...

Very Nice!

Greetings

But still harder to calibrate than a samsung ... have to spend more money on more programs and connection devices to get this right ...

So at what cost?

regards

Greetings

But still harder to calibrate than a samsung ...Not here. Calibrating the ISFccc modes, for me, is actually easier than the Samsungs and their CMS. Difficulty level is defined by how familiar one is with a particular model and control interface :) Calibration time, for me, is roughly 1-1.5 hours per ISF mode. That is about the same amount of time it takes me to properly calibrate a Samsung. Calibration time for a 5020 dwindles down to 15 minutes.... tops :D


have to spend more money on more programs and connection devices to get this right ...This is the life of a calibrator my friend.

Greetings

Which all comes down to whether the original poster wants to pay a pro to come in and do it for him or just wants something close out of the box.

Or wants to do it all himself ... unless you are there doing it for free for him.

regards

Greetings

Which all comes down to whether the original poster wants to pay a pro to come in and do it for him or just wants something close out of the box.Well, if that's the case, none of the discussed PDPs are close to being accurate out of the box.


Or wants to do it all himself ... unless you are there doing it for free for him.

regardsI've already provided RGB offsets for the non-Elites. That's about as good as you are going to get without DIY or a pro calibration. I'm not even going to discuss how accurate those offsets are....even over multiple manufaturing batches ;)

Greetings

And don't forget that Pioneer voids the warranty on the non-elites for doing grayscale work on the TV. :(

Ability to get the TV into the best shape with user controls ... the Samsung.

Ability to get the TV into the best shape with external software progams and interfaces .... the Pioneer ... and the risks / headaches associated with it.

Regards

Greetings

And don't forget that Pioneer voids the warranty on the non-elites for doing grayscale work on the TV. :(Only if they can prove what you did in the Service Menu damaged the display ;)

Ability to get the TV into the best shape with user controls ... the Samsung.Hmmm... my opinion is both the Samsung and Pioneer Elite.

... and the risks / headaches associated with it.If you ever have a question or want tips on how to efficiently and effectively calibrate the ISFccc modes on the 9G Kuros, you can contact me at anytime. I'll be more than happy to help you out.

Greetings

Easier said than done ... I hope you can take care of that aspect for the client when Pioneer does what they want. It is usually a 4 to 5 month headache. That's what unauthorized access is all about ...

The client could always spend more ... but he isn't asking that. Unless disposable income just appears out of thin air for him.

The 9G non elites do not have ISF CCC modes in them. It is merely fiddling around in the SM.

Regards

Greetings

Easier said than done ... I hope you can take care of that aspect for the client when Pioneer does what they want. It is usually a 4 to 5 month headache. That's what unauthorized access is all about ...

The client could always spend more ... but he isn't asking that. Unless disposable income just appears out of thin air for him.

The 9G non elites do not have ISF CCC modes in them. It is merely fiddling around in the SM.

Regards
Michael,

I don't like Pioneer's "official" stance on Service Menu calibration any more than you do. I have personally blasted them for their un-enforcable policy. However, they have zero idea if you accessed the SM unless you go in there, screw it up, and tell them you screwed it up. At that point, I don't think there is a manufacturer out there that would not void the warranty.

BTW,

There is nothing in any offical consumer/owner documentation that explictly states that if you access the Service Menu, you will void the warranty. If you believe in the "warranty voiding" policy, may I ask how many Pioneer owner's warranties have you voided over the years? The official word from Pioneer is that no one is allowed in the Service Menu beyond authorized Pioneer Display technicians. I can count on one hand how many ISF calibrators that are authorized Pioneer display technicians.

Greetings

Shrugging it off is hardly a good way to go (which you seem to be doing). Clients need to be made aware of it ...

The picture and the implications are not as clear as you seem to make it all out to be. If you think it is a non issue, then I would say you need to step in when Pioneer does what they do to one of your clients ...

On the Elite side ... there are no worries ...

On the Samsung side ... no worries ...

On the non-elite side ... well things are different. Lots of gray areas that appear ... and pushing people toward those without additional information is not the best way to go.

Ever hear of a client telling the serviceman not to touch some stuff because a calibrator was in there working on his set? Don't upset his calibration settings?

Just a few more complexities on the non-elites than on the other sets.

Regards

Shrugging it off is hardly a good way to go (which you seem to be doing). Clients need to be made aware of it ... The picture and the implications are not as clear as you seem to make it all out to be. If you think it is a non issue, then I would say you need to step in when Pioneer does what they do to one of your clients ...Shrugging it off? Call it what you want, but I know better. That's why it's a non-issue for me and my clients (and the issue has been beaten to death over the years in Pioneer owner threads). I back my clients 100% when it comes to my work. If you want to use this unfounded Pioneer Service Menu scare tactic with your clients, be my guest. It is not enforceable in the United States unless it can be proven that RGB High Low modifications caused a panel malfunction....period. Why Pioneer says "voided" to everyone when it's only directed towards a certain group of people is a whole other discussion.

On the non-elite side ... well things are different. Lots of gray areas that appear ... and pushing people toward those without additional information is not the best way to go.Per Pioneer's official stance, you have voided every single one of your non-Elites clients warranty when you calibrated their sets. Have you provided them with a warranty that replaces what you have voided? See how silly that sounds???? You should know better when it comes to Pioneer warranties.

Ever hear of a client telling the serviceman not to touch some stuff because a calibrator was in there working on his set? Don't upset his calibration settings?And your point? For the record, Service Menu access beyond authorized technicians will be scrutinized by Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Toshiba, JVC, Hitachi, and Samsung owners. None of said manufacturers have ever placed in any owner warranties that the warranty would be void if the Service Menu is accessed....none

Just wanted to note that Pioneer has authorized Best Buy ISF Calibrators to access the service menu on the 9g Non-Elites without voiding the warranty. They have even given Best Buy the service menu code to access the menu in order to perform the gray scale adjustment. No software needed. Just a simple remote code.

Just wanted to note that Pioneer has authorized Best Buy ISF Calibrators to access the service menu on the 9g Non-Elites without voiding the warranty. They have even given Best Buy the service menu code to access the menu in order to perform the gray scale adjustment. No software needed. Just a simple remote code.Are you sure about that? Espcially a owner's remote Service Menu access sequence for the 9th Generation Pioneers.

Edit: Never mind I know what Pioneer gave BB. Just keep in mind BB calibrations are limited to Standard/Performance mode based on the "things" Pioneer provided :)

What is your reasoning for being limited to performance/standard mode?

BB Calibration on a PDP-6020 done in Movie mode with the "things" Pioneer gives them.

What is your reasoning for being limited to performance/standard mode?Because the "item" Pioneer gave BB does not come with a certain command to store a calibration in Movie mode. Now if Pioneer also gave you the command and you guys added that command to your "item", then that's a completely different story.

BB Calibration on a PDP-6020 done in Movie mode with the "things" Pioneer gives them.I can tell you right now that this document is suspect.

Every single 6020FD that has come off the PDP assembly line has a plus green grayscale in Movie mode. Because of that, there is no way the grayscale will be anywhere near the 5800K numbers you have in this document. If your document stated that this was a 5020, this post would not exist ;)

6020FD PDP modules are only made at one of the two Pioneer PDP manufacturing plants. There are a few 151s and most, if not all, 141s that do not exhibit a plus green grayscale. Those particular PDP modules are produced at the other facility which primary roll is 50" models.

D-nice.....no trickery with the report I posted. It was a 6020 being fed by a Pioneer Blu-ray through a Pioneer receiver. For a reference 50ire read

x=.324 y=337 5889K

But rather my report is suspect or not is besides the point.

I'm curious to why you feel that BB can not calibrate the movie mode on the 9g Non-Elites?

D-nice.....no trickery with the report I posted. It was a 6020 being fed by a Pioneer Blu-ray through a Pioneer receiver. For a reference 50ire read

x=.324 y=337 5889K

But rather my report is suspect or not is besides the point.If you say so :rolleyes:

I'm curious to why you feel that BB can not calibrate the movie mode on the 9g Non-Elites?Read post #26.

Some how I missed that post....and for that I apoligize.

I also apoloigize to the OP for taking over his tread...I just wanted to point out there was an alternative to voiding your warrenty since it was being so heatedly discussed.

Just to clear up the "things", "items", etc that has been mentioned above is simply a remote code that Pioneer has given to Best Buy that can be loaded into a universal remote and allows simple one button in and out service menu access for the Pioneers.

Once in the menu it is axactly the same as last years sets. The only small issue with the 9G Non-Elites is that you can't view the Movie mode white balance while in the service menu since it defaults to Standard Mode. However since when adjusting the Pioneer white balance you are actually affecting all the Color Temps/Modes you simply can make your adjustments in the service menu and then exit it to take your readings in Movie mode. Couple times in and out and your all done since they "auto save" when exiting the service menu just like previous generations.

And D-nice I'm assuming when you say "Suspect" you are saying my equipment may be off? And I can assure you I will look into this. I can also assure you I did not post some random report in order to slip something past everyone.(Which is what I'm feeling you think I tried to do.) Believe it or not there are some BB Calibrators that take a great deal of pride in the work they do.

I also apoloigize to the OP for taking over his tread...I just wanted to point out there was an alternative to voiding your warrenty since it was being so heatedly discussed.I agree. I also offer my apology

Once in the menu it is axactly the same as last years sets. The only small issue with the 9G Non-Elites is that you can't view the Movie mode white balance while in the service menu since it defaults to Standard Mode. However since when adjusting the Pioneer white balance you are actually affecting all the Color Temps/Modes you simply can make your adjustments in the service menu and then exit it to take your readings in Movie mode. Couple times in and out and your all done since they "auto save" when exiting the service menu just like previous generations.This is actually incorrect. The main problem with the 9G non-Elites is the fact that without a specific command, the global RGB controls only change Performance/Standard modes. This is the primary reason why the ControlCAL utility is the only thing out there that can properly calibrate Movie mode. With the proper commands, you will be able to calibrate Movie mode and take Movie mode measurements while in the SM (minus gamma).

Please do not take our discussion in a negative manner. I'm posting what I'm posting because I was the one who figured out how to properly calibrate the 9G non-Elites. It took weeks for me to figure out how to calibrate these things and what you just posted was the first thing I tested....and it failed.


And D-nice I'm assuming when you say "Suspect" you are saying my equipment may be off?From what you should me, those pre-cal numbers are way off.

Believe it or not there are some BB Calibrators that take a great deal of pride in the work they do.Yes there are some. However, its by far too few.

D-nice I will PM you concerning what has been discussed.

Back to the original post.....The Samsungs are a very nice set and have much more control when it comes to calibration. However purchasing a Pioneer myself, I will trade a little color accuracy any day for the black level of the Pioneer. That being said I don't think you would be disappointed with either. Unless you go with the Sammy and someone you knows steps into the Pioneer.:)

I will most definitely be using a calibrator. Was on the phone with one yesterday who's thinking about coming to my area, and I'm still researching as to who comes to Arkansas. I've seen some ballpark figures on calibration sites, and I'm not particularly concerned with what you guys charge, just want a good calibrator that will help a little in choosing components. I own a small restaurant and realize that a good ribeye correctly cooked, beats a good ribeye anytime. It's also worth more. <[:^)


The other set I'm trying to find info on (but can't) is the Mitsubishi 246 series LCD.

I haven't yet looked hard at the Samsungs, but the calibrator I spoke with also talked about liking them a lot. My only concern with them is service, but I'll check a little deeper into that next week.

Thanks much for the info, I really appreciate it.
Oh, the reason I asked about th non-elite vs. the 850, is that they are now within a couple hundred dollars of each other.

I can tell you right now that this document is suspect.

Every single 6020FD that has come off the PDP assembly line has a plus green grayscale in Movie mode. Because of that, there is no way the grayscale will be anywhere near the 5800K numbers you have in this document. If your document stated that this was a 5020, this post would not exist ;)


I don't get this... Green errors have little or no effect on color temp. Red and Blue have just about all the control over color temp.

I understand you can have a green grayscale - no problem. But for the color temp to be 5800 (or thereabouts) you also have to have too much red - albeit not a huge amount "too much" but 5800K is fairly noticeable as being too warm.

Doug,

I'm not speaking of color points. I'm speaking specifically of the RGB channels. All 6020FDs have the Green channel @ 104-105%, Red channel @ 97-98% and Blue channel @ 91-93%.

In that configuration, it is impossible to end up with a color temp of 5800-5900K. It should be in the 6250-6375K range.

I don't get this... Green errors have little or no effect on color temp. Red and Blue have just about all the control over color temp.

I understand you can have a green grayscale - no problem. But for the color temp to be 5800 (or thereabouts) you also have to have too much red - albeit not a huge amount "too much" but 5800K is fairly noticeable as being too warm.