Quote “plplplpl;14113904 About 16:9 recording:

On page 129 of the manual it says:

But on page 9 it puts
only under the HDD, DVD-VR (both DVD-R and DVD-RW) and DVD-RAM modes.

So, are we to understand that although this machine detects the widescreen flag when recording to the HDD, it doesn't pass it along when burning a (other-DVD-player-compatible) DVD-Video mode disc? I guess one way to find out for sure is for someone to try it and post a confirmation here.

Another curiosity, again on page 9: it lists the chase play feature working on the HDD, but not on DVD-RAM. Is this in fact the case or is it simply an oversight in the manual?”

Hi all,

Noob here. Sorry to parachute in with a problem/question right away. The above is a quote from another thread. I had a Pioneer 450 from Costco last year, but returned it when the picture from the satellite HD receiver turned into a grey screen with 4 snowy thumbnails ot the picture at the top. I tried changing outputs from the receiver and cables from the receiver to no avail. So, it went back to Costco and I replaced it with a 460h-k. No change in picture. Stupid, stupid me. After I re-booted the receiver all was well, so nothing was wrong with the 450. STOOPID!!!

Anyway, the 460 will NOT show me a 16:9 picture. The 450 always did. Granted it was smaller - letterbox with black bars also at the sides - but could zoom to fill the 46" screen. The 460 changes the 16:9 picture to a 4:3 picture by placing thick black bars over each side of the picture (I guess cropping it). I discovered by accident today that it will display an anomorphic(sp?) picture - you know, full width HD with letterbox bars top & bottom - as a 16:9 with bars all around like the old 450 did.

I hooked up the 460 the same way as the old 450 - S-video and RCA audio from the satellite receiver to the DVR and HDMI from the DVR to the Bravia. I tried using RCA video instead of S-video, but it made no difference. I went back to Costco today and plugged it into a Vizio set they had with the same results. Then we plugged in their display unit - same result. Then they opened up a new box for me and hooked it up - same result.

Last week I was at another Costco location and told their AV guy my problem and he hooked up a new one from the box to a Viewsonic 46-47" set and it displayed a 16:9 picture properly JUST LIKE MY OLD 450 DID!

I'm going back to that Costco tomorrow to see if the one he opened for me is still there and, if so, buying it. Does this make sense to anyone?

Thanks,
Glenn

I can't speak for others here, but I long ago gave up any delusions that my Pioneers (or any other SD recorders) would create predictable or reliable 16:9 recordings. Without a specific setting to force 16:9 or insert a flag, these machines almost always disappoint on a big flat panel. So I view my recordings on either my old Proton CRT display (gorgeous piece of glass), my laptop, or more modest-size flat panels. The huge wall screen is reserved for commercial DVDs, digital cable, or other "hard-wired" 16:9 aspects.

If you truly want to be bothered with 16:9 SD intricacies, you need either a home-theater PC set up to record 16:9 DVDs directly, or a vintage Toshiba DVD/HDD recorder with fully independent WS settings. Any other hardware is a crapshoot. (There are some exceptions, if you have a recent recorder with ATSC tuner it may allow 16:9 recording of OTA material, but most SD recorders with analog tuners like Pioneer DVR-560 or Panasonic EH55 are unpredictable.)

Thanks for getting back to me. I should clarify what I am recording and how the DVR is connected. I am not using the tuner at all nor is it connected (I don't think). I simply have the input connected with the composite jacks from the satellite receiver (have also used S-video - no difference) and HDMI out to the year old Bravia. It will play back commercial DVD's in correct full screen 16:9. What I use it for is to record stuff by manual programming - just like an old VCR. Most of that stuff is full screen 16:9 HD content - say TSN-HD, Movie Central-HD and SuperChannel-HD.

With the previous DVR-450 the picture would display properly at 16:9, but not full screen (before or during recording). It would have the black border all around. It would play back exactly like this as well allowing me to use the TV zoom to get full screen with no cropping taking place.

With this year's DVR-460 the picture displays in an "artificial" 4:3. It fills the screen top to bottom, but the sides are cropped leaving thick black bars which actually cut off or cover up the station logo at the bottom right or any credits or what-have-you at the left side of the screen.

I did see one DVR-460 that actually did display like the old DVR-450 at another Costco and will try to find that unit if they haven't sold it yet - unless you guys can suggest some setting change that will correct the problem. Or is it an example of an early production DVR-460 displaying like the old model and newer production ones having something different about them?

Thanks,
Glenn

Are you sure your STB is capable of outputting WS over composite or S-video? The easiest way to check is to run your composite cable directly to your TV. If it's not WS then the problem is in your STB.

Are you sure your STB is capable of outputting WS over composite or S-video?

Hi jjeff,

Absolutely, but it is widescreen, not full screen when routed through the DVR. For over a year it has displayed widescreen (16:9) through the old DVR with black bars all around. I can then zoom the TV to get full screen at 16:9 with no cropping, albeit at lower picture quality.

It will only display a full widescreen (no zoom required) via the HDMI (or component) directly from the satellite receiver set to a HD channel.

Glenn

Sounds to me like you don't have your DVDR set to output to a 16x9 TV.

I have a Pio 640, and record letter-boxed WS all the time. Unfortunately, my Comcast HD DVR will not output anamorphic on the S-Vid out, so I can't make anamorphic DVDs.

The only time I have problems with extra black bars is when I record 4x3 content played on a HD channel. Then, there are two sets of black bars on the sides of the frame, and only one can be eliminated by zooming. That is not the fault of the DVDR.

Hi kjbawc,

I definitely have the DVR set to 16:9. Also, 4:3 output is set to display as normal and resolution is set to 1920 x 1080P. The TV settings are: wide mode set to full, auto wide is on and display area set to -2, but this doesn’t matter whether -2, -1, normal, or full pixel – just changes the incorrect 4:3 picture size by making the side bars narrower. With the exception of the display area setting, the other settings are the same as were used on the previous DVR-450 successfully for over a year. I can't imagine the general public being satisfied these days with a DVR that won't display 16:9 when the vast majority of TV's on the market are widescreen. Mine and the other 2 we tested at Costco yesterday must all have been faulty. They wouldn't show a 16:9 throughput picture either.

Cheers,
Glenn

Update:

OK, just got home with the DVR-460 that worked properly at the store - just like my old DVR-450. The DVR-450 displayed 16:9 correctly on my Bravia 46" V2500 series (about 1.5 years old). I plugged in this newest DVR-460 and the f%^&#ng thing won't display 16:9 on my Bravia even though it works like a charm on the Viewsonic 46" LCD at the store.

Soooo, Pioneer has done something to this year's model DVR-460 that makes it incompatible with the "older" Sony Bravia. A guy at Costco mentioned today that the Vizio at my local Costco (on which the Pioneer also would not work right) had a Sony panel.

I've used up Plans A, B & C in replacing what I thought were faulty DVR-460's (although the first one I brought home wouldn't play some MP-3's without stopping for a few seconds partway through). Plan D is to return the DVR-460 and see if they still have my old DVR-450 in the store somewhere and, if so, can I get it back and get it repaired. If not, then Plan E is to try the Sony 780 hoping it is based on the Pioneer DVR-450 and being a Sony will work with a Sony Bravia.

I can't believe I'd have to replace a 1.5 year old TV to get one that'll work with a DVR.

Glenn

This thing seems really weird to me. I think we're missing something somewhere. Were you using the same outputs from the 460 to your TV, as you were using when it worked in the store?

This thing seems really weird to me. I think we're missing something somewhere. Were you using the same outputs from the 460 to your TV, as you were using when it worked in the store?

Yeah, all the same. Actually I have used both S-video and composite cables (not at the same time) and there was no difference except MAYBE in picture quality. No 16:9 with either. The only thing I have not tried is to hook up component cables to the TV instead of the HDMI. The point is, the hook-up and cables used are identical to what had worked on the DVR-450 for over a year.

You really need the Apple TV Converter (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=828063) which will take your STB's COMPONENT output and convert it to S-Video for the DVR and retain the full Widescreen image, just like it does now to your TV. As a bonus, it apparently also strips copy-protection!

Try it with component cables. I bet it works. I had assumed you were using component.

Try it with component cables. I bet it works. I had assumed you were using component.
The 450/460 has Component inputs???

The 450/460 has Component inputs???

No, not input. It has both HDMI and component output. I had always used the HDMI. I don't think it will upconvert with the component output.

No, not input. It has both HDMI and component output. I had always used the HDMI. I don't think it will upconvert with the component output.
I didn't think so, but did you see my post about the Apple TV converter?

Hi wajo,

Yes, I did see your post on the AppleTV thing. That will be Plan F which will be incorporated with Plan E (buying the Sony 780) IF the 780 also won't display 16:9.

Thank you all for your insight. I will keep you posted.

Glenn

Hi wajo,

Yes, I did see your post on the AppleTV thing. That will be Plan F which will be incorporated with Plan E (buying the Sony 780) IF the 780 also won't display 16:9.

Thank you all for your insight. I will keep you posted.

Glenn
It won't matter what DVR you get, it's your STB that can't output full WS over its Composite or S-Video outputs.

You've been dealing with that postage-stamp image you've been getting by zooming and losing PQ... it won't matter what DVR you get since none have Component input!

It won't matter what DVR you get, it's your STB that can't output full WS over its Composite or S-Video outputs.

You've been dealing with that postage-stamp image you've been getting by zooming and losing PQ... it won't matter what DVR you get since none have Component input!

But the DVR-450 allowed a WS (16:9) picture albeit not FULL WS. I did lose PQ by zooming the TV, but I could accept that as long as the 16:9 was there. Do you mean the AppleTV converter will give FULL WS AND better PQ?

But the DVR-450 allowed a WS (16:9) picture albeit not FULL WS. I did lose PQ by zooming the TV, but I could accept that as long as the 16:9 was there. Do you mean the AppleTV converter will give FULL WS AND better PQ?
According to Nextoo and others who've used it, apparently so... full and natural WS.

And don't lose sight of the fact that it serves as a "filter" for stripping CP... other units that do ONLY that cost as much or more than the converter! :D

Nextoo had to set his STB to output 480i (cuz all DVDRs can only take 480i as an input) and has some notes on which STB model he has (SA8300) and how to set his and maybe a few others? He mentions one DCT6412 I think that can't be set. Might be a good idea to read that whole thread and see if you can determine if it'd work for you for sure?

Nextoo still comes around on occasion and may answer some questions in that thread?

Looks like I'm screwed for Plan F (AppleTV). The satellite receiver - model 6100 - has 1 component video output and 1 DVI (to HDMI) output. If one is used, then the other has NO output. I have the DVI connected to the HDMI on the TV so that leaves me with only the composite or S-video output to send to the DVR. So, I guess if Plan E (Sony 780) doesn't work out I'll have to look for another DVR-450. I'm starting to hate this.

Don't even think about the Sony 780: its based on the 460/560, not the 450. You'll just be wasting your time. There is something weird with your situation that I think we just aren't understanding the way you need us to? Both the 450 and 460 (and any other recorder) should be able to play commercial 16:9 DVDs in full anamorphic widescreen on any flat panel display. Assuming the 460s you have brought home do this, they are not defective.

Playback of your own recordings made on the unit is a whole other matter. Pioneers do not "do" 16:9 consistently, period. Neither do any other current recorders. Sometimes they do the borders all around thing, sometimes they actually pick up the anamorphic flag and make some sort of half-assed attempt at 16:9 recordings (I notice this happens most often with HBO or other premium channels). Various TV displays interact differently with various recorders (and players, for that matter) regarding home-recorded widescreen material, letterboxed or otherwise.

Instead of zooming, you could try stretching instead if your display offers that function: your description sounds like an unflagged 16:9 recording thats not automatically stretching itself horizontally during playback- very common. Or, go into the 450s setup menu, and note the settings under the TV Playback menu. Then look at a 460, and see if they match: if not, override the 460 setting to match what works for you on the 450. The default may have changed between models, or maybe the 460 needs to be switched to "wrong" settings to make it compatible with your display.

Good morning CitiBear,

It plays back commercial DVD's like a million bucks. The issue is watching/recording HD 16:9 shows. It seems to force the HD 16:9 picture into 4:3 by cutting off the sides of the picture, putting thick black bars at the sides and fitting the resulting 4:3 picture top to bottom on the screen no matter what the settings are. The SD 16:9 programs do display properly which I have just confirmed.

My old DVR-450 worked absolutely flawlessly at all times until something went wonky with it a few weeks ago. The 16:9 SD & HD pictures always displayed as 16:9 with black bars all around. That was fine because the original picture was ALL there - no cropping. Something has changed from the 450 to the 460. The menus haven't changed and the settings are set the same as on the old 450.

I don't want the picture stretched. I want it displayed in the correct aspect ratio with no cropping. I don't care if it fills the screen or not. I want my DVR-450 back so I guess I'll have to start searching to see if there are any left in any stores anywhere.

The Sony ad literature says something about displaying the proper picture on the Bravia. Is it possible that the 780, even if it is based on the 460, could have 450 firmware which will allow it to display 16:9 the way my 450 did?

Thanks,
Glenn

Playback of your own recordings made on the unit is a whole other matter. Pioneers do not "do" 16:9 consistently, period. Neither do any other current recorders.
My Philips 3575's do natural 16:9 WS consistently and beautifully.

Or, go into the 450s setup menu, and note the settings under the TV Playback menu. Then look at a 460, and see if they match: if not, override the 460 setting to match what works for you on the 450. The default may have changed between models, or maybe the 460 needs to be switched to "wrong" settings to make it compatible with your display.
Odd, but true. When I play my 4:3 aspect JPG pics thru my 3575's USB port to my 1080p LCD set for "Wide," I get normal 4:3 apsect pics on screen (full height pic w/bar on each side). When I set my 3575 for 4:3 LB, I get full-screen stretched pics. ???

Sorry, wajo, I tend to forget the Phillips/Maggies when people are talking about Pioneers:o: you are of course correct that being ATSC-capable they can make more consistent 16:9 recordings. When I say "most recorders don't", I mean most non-ATSC DVD/HDD units like those still available in Canada, based on older chassis designs.

GseaQ, when I say you could try stretching the funky 460 output I did not mean stretch it to look abnormal. Many recorders occasionally manage to create an unintentional off-spec 16:9 DVD. The normal spec calls for 16:9 to be horizontally squeezed within the 4:3 recording frame, using all the space top-to-bottom. Upon playback, the recorder or player is supposed to detect what sort of display you are using and process this squeezed 16:9 frame accordingly. On a 4:3 display like a CRT television, the image should be stretched horizontally and letterboxed top and bottom. On a 16:9 display, the image is supposed to be stretched horizontally and fill the wide screen completely at full resolution. If the recorder creates a partial-spec 16:9 title, it may not trigger the automatic stretch required on a 16:9 display or the letterbox for a CRT, or it may confuse the two formats. This is where your TV controls come in handy.

All of the above assumes the recorder is picking up the full-res 16:9 signal from your set top box and attempting to compress it horizontally, which is the proper WS spec. But most of the time, a non-ATSC recorder will not pick up the full-res 16:9 signal and will not compress it horizontally: usually, the machine will just take the letterboxed 4:3 output from the cable box at face value and record it that way, as 4:3 with the black top and bottom borders considered a part of the image, reducing WS resolution and resulting in a window-framed image on a 16:9 display that you need to zoom in on.

I have not been able to reproduce your exact problem using my own refurbished 460 on the handful of 16:9 tvs I've tried it on since you first posted. In each case I get the standard, expected windowboxed output on the 16:9 display which has to be zoomed or otherwise adjusted to fill the screen. (Personally I don't like the zoomed image: too many artifacts, so I've trained myself to live with the smaller, sharper windowbox image.) There may simply be an odd incompatibility between the 460 and some Sony Bravia sets that makes the standard 4:3 letterbox appear as some kind of in-between aspect ratio that can't be adjusted properly. I can't imagine why, because the motherboards of the 450 and 460 are similar and the encoders did not change. I have noted that all Pioneers make peculiar internal judgements as to whether a particular recording is "widesreen" or "fullscreen", and they hard-code some sort of internal flag to each recording. This internal logic does not seem to have any connection to the actual source signal, and it causes problems sometimes with editing and dubbing when the unit arbitrarily decides some parts of a recording are different aspect ratios. Perhaps the 460 carries this to an extreme with your Bravia, to the point it affects playback as well. Hard to say.

As long as you don't care that the store you shop at probably has you on their most-hated list by now:rolleyes:, you could certainly try the Sony 780 and return that if it doesn't work. It does have Bravia-specific circuits, but AFAIK this is only for combined operation, not the video signal itself. Pioneer and Sony joined forces in 2006 to co-design the Pioneer 640, the 450 and 460 are further developments of the same chassis. Up until the 780, the Sony versions had markedly different motherboards and encoders. With the introduction of the 780, Sony abandoned any pretense of exclusivity and is now simply rebadging the entire Pioneer design. Since Sony has had significant input into all Pioneer recorders since 2006, it is extremely odd that you would have trouble playing a 460 on a Bravia. Given the mfr economics involved, I would be very surprised if you found the Sony 780 outputs differently from the Pio 460- its unlikely Sony would have altered anything that major in the existing spec. But anythings possible: give the Sony a spin and tell us what happens. Good Luck! :)

Thanks wajo & CitiBear. It seems the problem is the 460's compatibility with some TV's. It displayed properly (exactly like my old 450) on the Viewsonic, but will not on my Bravia KDL46v2500 or the current 47" Vizio at Costco. Maybe it would on a newer model Bravia, who knows. Still, something had to change between the 450 and the 460 to make the different display, because my TV, HD sat receiver (6100) and cables didn't change.

I've just tried every "incorrect" setting on the 460 (4:3 Letterbox, 4:3 Panscan), dropped resolution to 720x480, changed the TV to Auto Wide off, display area to Full Pixel, Normal, -1 & -2 and tried full, zoom & Wide Zoom. The changes made either insignificant or no change to the picture display (except the zoom & Wide zoom). I understand the idea you had that maybe the picture was actually narrower than it ought to be and Wide zoom might make it right, but, no joy. The display area settings (Full Pixel, Normal, -1 & -2) actually do make the picture and the people in the picture narrower or wider, but only incrementally.

I will try the Sony. It'll come from FutureShop, but I've always felt like I needed a shower after buying from them. The 460's all (actually only 2 brought home, the others tried in the store) came from Costco. I leave a lot of money there every year, so I don't think they mind too much about this.

Do you know of any online stores like J&R Computer & Music or somewhere who still sell the 450?

Thanks,
Glenn

The 450 (and 460) are only available at CostCo, and the 450 has been sold out for quite some time. Many people return recorders to CostCo after giving them a test drive, as you have, and those units get sold off pretty quickly by liquidators on eBay. Those liquidators burned through their supply of the 450 last month and have now moved on to the 460.

The 450 was basically the same as a 550 minus the 550's DV and USB sockets. The 550 is still available as an "international" model thru J&R and 220electronics. It costs roughly $450-500. You might consider opting for it if all else fails, as it has the same internals as the 450. However, you should probably get it from one of the "worldwide" specialists instead of J&R: they have more liberal return/refund policies. You'll want a return option, because I have heard from many buyers of the "international" Pio 550 who complain of issues getting the timer to show up and getting the unit matched to their flat panel TV. Its cold comfort, but you should know you are far from alone: I have heard from a surprising number of people with different brands/models of recorder who complain the HDMI is full of bugs and doesn't sync up with their 16:9 TV. Aparently a number of standard def DVD recorders made before this year are caught between a rock and a hard place, with conflicts between set top HD boxes and 16:9 displays. One workaround is to use a dedicated player, which has more elaborate display adjustments, but this doesn't help when recording.

(BTW, J&R is an excellent vendor in business for 30 years: I don't mean to imply people shouldn't buy from them. But they are a privately-held company which cannot afford to let customers take "test drives" like CostCo and Best Buy: if you want to do that, go to a chain store. If you know exactly what you want and don't expect to exchange it for something else, J&R is a super-professional source. But they only accept exchanges on obviously defective hardware: refunds are usually off the table.)

Thank you CitiBear. I've bought a couple of things from J&R before and am quite happy with them.

I got the Sony 780 last night and hooked it up. It works the same as the 460 - no 16:9 picture from the HD channels. On a "brighter" note, the picture through the Sony is brighter than that from the Pioneer. I always set the TV to "vivid" with the 450 and "normal" when not using the DVR.

So, it seems like the only sure solution is to get a 450 somewhere. Even though the 550 is based on the 450, it's not a sure solution for my problem? That's really disappointing, because they can still be had. Still waiting for WriterGuy1A to respond about the picture sizes on his 550.

I never started out to "test drive" :eek: . That happened when I thought the unit I bought to replace the original was defective. Still, I know people do have that habit. That's why Costco went to the 90 day return policy - too many people wanting the free new model every year. That's not right either - akin to theft IMO. I tried to get FS to hook up the Sony for me in the store (they had one on display), but they said they had no cable or sat input and all their TV's were displaying BlueRay from an internal system.

I never started out to "test drive" :eek: .

So sorry, GseaQ, I certainly didn't intend a criticism when I spoke of "test drives": on certain products like DVD recorders, its almost expected that consumers will do this. Its a fact of life in the USA that one out of two DVD recorders gets returned to the store as "too hard to use" anyway, and the big chains are set up to handle that trend. I only wanted to clarify that J&R, a class-act private retailer with a significant web presence, does NOT have an "anything goes" refund policy, which is bad if you have a component matching problem and a strong possibility of needing a refund. Different vendors are useful for different products/circumstances. There is nothing at all wrong with "test driving" as long as you shop at an appropriate chain store to do it. Although I totally agree with you that 3-4 weeks should be long enough for anyone to discover a bug or a dislike: taking advantage of a "lifetime'' return policy to get a free new model every year is tacky and kind of immoral. I'm amazed they've allowed such abuse this long.

No offense taken CitiBear. I didn't mean the post to sound like it was. I just have a "kicked in the gonads" feeling from all of this. I found a 450 and a 550 (region free) on eBay, but I am afraid to buy them now in case my old 450 was the exception and not the rule. It's hard to even find out if the 550 displays the same as the old 450 because it may be somewhat dependent on the TV it's connected to - eg a 460 connected to a Sony Bravia KDL-46V25L1 (bad) or a new Viewsonic (good). If only somebody with a 550 could confirm a 16:9 throughput (not fully filled screen, but 16:9 windowboxed) of a HD channel on a Sony Bravia. Somebody? Anybody?

Cheers,
Glenn

So, it seems like the only sure solution is to get a 450 somewhere.

On page 2 of their site, these Costco liquidators (http://www.electrotelinc.com/) are still advertising the 450 for the sweet price of CA$220. They only have stores locally in the Montreal area, so you might have to dust off your French, and they definitely don't take returns, but if you're sure you want a Pioneer 450, it's a great deal.

On page 2 of their site, these Costco liquidators (http://www.electrotelinc.com/) are still advertising the 450 for the sweet price of CA$220. They only have stores locally in the Montreal area, so you might have to dust off your French, and they definitely don't take returns, but if you're sure you want a Pioneer 450, it's a great deal.

Thanks plplplpl . I called them and tried my best broken French. They only sell locally - no shipping, refurbished with 6 month warranty. If defective they'll take the return for 15 days, but I don't know if it'd be a refund or replacement unit. Really, thanks for finding them. Only someone with alien abilities could, I'm sure!

The new 450 on eBay is basically the same price as new at Costco after shipping, so still in the running as is the used 550 if I could reasonably expect it to perform the same as the 450. I tried the Pioneer Canada and Singapore websites and couldn't find any firmware for the 450/550 or 460.

Cheers,
Glenn