I used to play online games (mostly FPS and gears) on a crt and I always did ok for myself. About 6 months ago, I upgraded to a Samsung LNT 5271, and ever since I did, I noticed I just wasn't holding my own anymore. I couldn't put my finger on it, but I felt that I just couldn't be quick enough to nail those headshots.

Fast forward to last week and my house was broken into and my tv was stolen:mad:. While I'm waiting for the insurance company to send a check, I got bored and hooked up the old crt to the xbox. Lo and behold, all the sudden, I'm back to my old self again after a few games! The controls felt spot on.

I've never really researched input lag on lcds until this week and I was quite suprised. Mind you, I never used game mode on the TV so that might have helped some. I think after a while I just kinda got used to it, but after playing on the CRT, I can definatly tell a difference.

So, I'm thinking of picking up a Pioneer 5020. Hopefully, the input lag won't be as bad as the Samsung was. From what I've read, people are pretty happy with them.

The sure fire way to keep input lag down on an LCD is to use the VGA cable. It will always have the least input lag because the TV generally won't do any post processing on the VGA input.

So pick the TV you want and if you have input lag buy the VGA cable.

The sure fire way to keep input lag down on an LCD is to use the VGA cable. It will always have the least input lag because the TV generally won't do any post processing on the VGA input.

So pick the TV you want and if you have input lag buy the VGA cable.

I've read that, but the motion blur I had with the LCD gave me headaches. I know that plasmas blur a bit but not nearly as bad LCD. Thats a big selling point for me.

Any LCD that uses a motion interpolation 120hz mode is going to add a lot of lag.

I've read that, but the motion blur I had with the LCD gave me headaches. I know that plasmas blur a bit but not nearly as bad LCD. Thats a big selling point for me.

depends on the lcd. keep it around 5ms and you wont notice any blurring.

"depends on the lcd. keep it around 5ms and you wont notice any blurring."

Pff! Even on 2ms displays you still have certain transition types that take a good 30ms to complete. 30ms is about 2 frames, which sounds like blur to me.

Any LCD that uses a motion interpolation 120hz mode is going to add a lot of lag.

I never used AMP when gaming

depends on the lcd. keep it around 5ms and you wont notice any blurring.

The blurring gets to me on any LCD 8,4 and 2ms response times.

Any LCD that uses a motion interpolation 120hz mode is going to add a lot of lag.

That is only half true. The motion enhancements that come with a 120hz TV can most certainly be turned off. The panel being 120hz does NOT add any lag though. Generally you use game mode on an LCD, which will turn those motion enhancers off.

"depends on the lcd. keep it around 5ms and you wont notice any blurring."

Pff! Even on 2ms displays you still have certain transition types that take a good 30ms to complete. 30ms is about 2 frames, which sounds like blur to me.

In my personal experience a 2ms LCD has no noticeable blurring. I do notice it on 8ms TVs though. I have not had much experience gaming with anything in between though. But even at 8ms it does not bother me too much.

That is only half true. The motion enhancements that come with a 120hz TV can most certainly be turned off. The panel being 120hz does NOT add any lag though. Generally you use game mode on an LCD, which will turn those motion enhancers off.



In my personal experience a 2ms LCD has no noticeable blurring. I do notice it on 8ms TVs though. I have not had much experience gaming with anything in between though. But even at 8ms it does not bother me too much.

For watching TV the LCD works fine for me. It's just when playing FPS's where the blur gets to me.

For watching TV the LCD works fine for me. It's just when playing FPS's where the blur gets to me.

Well I suppose we all must keep in mind that there is no standard for response time rating. So it can be rated on any color transition the manufacturer wants. Generally it is GTG, but it does not have to be.

I have an LG L206WTY as my main PC monitor (2ms response time). My previous monitor was a Samsung LCD with an 8ms response time. Sitting with my face very close to the screen I see no blurring at all while gaming (which are mostly FPS games). My old Sammy I did, but at the time 8ms was about as low as you got.

But everyone is different. My even older CRT monitor used to give me headaches if I played for more than a few hours because it was 60hz. I did not see the flicker at all, but I still got headaches.

Agreed. My buddy has a Samsung 46A750 and he doesn't notice the blur on his set or my previous one.

"depends on the lcd. keep it around 5ms and you wont notice any blurring."

Pff! Even on 2ms displays you still have certain transition types that take a good 30ms to complete. 30ms is about 2 frames, which sounds like blur to me.


explain "certain transitions"

2ms B2B is 2ms, no matter how you slice it.

So, I'm thinking of picking up a Pioneer 5020. Hopefully, the input lag won't be as bad as the Samsung was. From what I've read, people are pretty happy with them.

If you can, either take your Xbox to a store and try the 5020 first, or buy somewhere with a good return policy. I went from CRT to a Samsung Plasma (PN50A550) in June, and ended up returning it after a week due to green phosphor trails and image noise/dithering. Playing Xbox on it gave me a splitting headache. I don't know if the 5020 is any better or worse than Samsung with phosphor decay or fringing, but it bugged me enough on the Sammy that I took it back and went back to my CRT. I'm going LCD soon, since blur has never bothered me on my iMac or any other computer monitor, HD-CRTs are extinct, and DLPs give me headaches and I see SSE and rainbows, even with the new LED models.

I've been using my xbox 360 via vga port to my samsung 52850 and been more than happy with my gaming experience, playing Gears 2 for a few days now and its smooth as butter, sharp, and beautiful.

I also have a sony rptv 3lcd 720p 55in E2000 and its also been very good for playing games. It sometimes still surprises me how well games look and play on that thing. Sometimes I see sse or sde but for the most part it looks great, not as good as my samsung though:)

explain "certain transitions"

2ms B2B is 2ms, no matter how you slice it.

The response of the panel isn't what creates the bulk of the blur. You could have an immediate response LCD panel, and it would still blur.

What causes blur is the fact that the frame of video is held on the screen until the next frame is available to display. If the frame was displayed for a smaller amount of time, with a black frame following it, then the next frame, the blur would be lessened. LCD TVs with strobing back lights do this, and they blur less.

"explain "certain transitions"
2ms B2B is 2ms, no matter how you slice it."

Depends on the particular LCD tech used, but as an example it is quite possible to make a 2ms average LCD that has 30ms transitions from black to dark gray. That 30ms transition would of course make shadowy areas a muddy mess. This same panel can also have 1ms transitions from black to white or black to middling gray. I'm not going to bother digging up specifics, but the point stands: millisecond ratings are ******** and you should know better than to use them for blanket recommendations.

Well I ordered the 5020 from amazon. Does anyone have any input on the phosphor trails for Pioneers? I had a panasonic plasma from about 3 years ago that had bad trails. Are the new plasmas any better?

Well I ordered the 5020 from amazon. Does anyone have any input on the phosphor trails for Pioneers? I had a panasonic plasma from about 3 years ago that had bad trails. Are the new plasmas any better?

With the Pioneer it is a tad bit less.

I used to play online games (mostly FPS and gears) on a crt and I always did ok for myself. About 6 months ago, I upgraded to a Samsung LNT 5271, and ever since I did, I noticed I just wasn't holding my own anymore. I couldn't put my finger on it, but I felt that I just couldn't be quick enough to nail those headshots.

Fast forward to last week and my house was broken into and my tv was stolen:mad:. While I'm waiting for the insurance company to send a check, I got bored and hooked up the old crt to the xbox. Lo and behold, all the sudden, I'm back to my old self again after a few games! The controls felt spot on.

I've never really researched input lag on lcds until this week and I was quite suprised. Mind you, I never used game mode on the TV so that might have helped some. I think after a while I just kinda got used to it, but after playing on the CRT, I can definatly tell a difference.

So, I'm thinking of picking up a Pioneer 5020. Hopefully, the input lag won't be as bad as the Samsung was. From what I've read, people are pretty happy with them.

The most ridiculous story I've ever heard.

I once owned a 71F Samsung as well. I kept AMP on High for gaming purposes. 99% of the time, I had NO issues with input lag. Sure, it's there, but to blame your sorry gaming skills due to the TV is just... laughable.

Input lag exists. Game enough on a TV with input lag, and it'll feel like any other TV sooner or later. I never had trouble owning some asses on my old 71F. AMP High.

I can play on various TV's, and the difference isn't enough to blame sorry skills on the TV.

The only time I've ever felt that the input lag was bad was when playing incredibly time dependent games like Guitar Hero or Hot Shots Golf. FPS games were just as easy on my 71F as any other TV.

The most ridiculous story I've ever heard.

I once owned a 71F Samsung as well. I kept AMP on High for gaming purposes. 99% of the time, I had NO issues with input lag. Sure, it's there, but to blame your sorry gaming skills due to the TV is just... laughable.

Input lag exists. Game enough on a TV with input lag, and it'll feel like any other TV sooner or later. I never had trouble owning some asses on my old 71F. AMP High.

I can play on various TV's, and the difference isn't enough to blame sorry skills on the TV.

The only time I've ever felt that the input lag was bad was when playing incredibly time dependent games like Guitar Hero or Hot Shots Golf. FPS games were just as easy on my 71F as any other TV.

You can call it ridiculous all you want, I notice a huge difference. With AMP on high, the game was unplayable. If you can adapt to that amount of lag, good for you.. why should I? The fact of the matter is, no matter how good you are, input lag makes it more difficult to aim.. end of story. Without AMP on, I could still play good. I just noticed the controls feel much better on an old CRT.

Play against some MLG level players with the 71f, AMP on high and tell me if you owned some asses.

I have a 120Hz Samsung 650 (46", this year's model) and notice lag with AMP on for any game that has a precise action-response, like pushing the jump button on a platform game. Turning AMP and all processing off, the lag seems to disappear and the action happens instantly.

I know there's still a tiny bit of lag left, but not enough for me to notice. I'm sure some Street Fighter II champ (you know, the ones that count the frames to execute moves) would probably notice the lag even with AMP and all processing off, but I don't.

I think it all comes down to the individual TV -- this year's higher-end LCDs have less lag than previous year's. Also, the individual's tolerance for lag has to be taken into account. The OP posted about last year's Samsung, and he probably has a high sensitivity for lag... his post makes perfect sense.

I had a 71 series Samsung (which is not as good as the newer sets with AMP), and I'm a freaking BEAST in games like Street Fighter, Capcom vs SNK2, Marvel vs Capcom 2.

AMP High didn't do anything to hamper my abilities to play such games.

Yes, there IS lag, no it isn't enough to mess me up while playing that isn't purely time dependent like Guitar Hero.

Easily the most blown out of proportion issue on LCD's. I remember some guy complaining about how he was crashing into walls while playing a racing game due to input lag. The most exaggerated complaint I've ever heard. We're talking about milliseconds, not seconds. People must truly have terrible reaction times to complain about milliseconds. Yes, even in getting headshots, lol.

I have a question that could have somethings to do with it. When my friends first played on my big screen tv a couple of years ago they had to get used to moving their head or the eyes more from playing on the smaller pc screens or tvs. Add that and input lag and that could explain the difference in one's reflexes. You spend a little more time looking up in the corner or you are focused on the center and don't notice the guy up in the corner till it is too late.
I remember playing the first Gears and Battlefield games on my 19 inch monitor and did a lot better on it than I did my big tv. But I would rather play on the bigger screen so I guess I just have to live with my sucky k/d ratio:)

you're sitting too close.

screen size seating distance ratio can be balanced out with seating distance, on any size tv.

I had a 71 series Samsung (which is not as good as the newer sets with AMP), and I'm a freaking BEAST in games like Street Fighter, Capcom vs SNK2, Marvel vs Capcom 2.

AMP High didn't do anything to hamper my abilities to play such games.

Yes, there IS lag, no it isn't enough to mess me up while playing that isn't purely time dependent like Guitar Hero.

Easily the most blown out of proportion issue on LCD's. I remember some guy complaining about how he was crashing into walls while playing a racing game due to input lag. The most exaggerated complaint I've ever heard. We're talking about milliseconds, not seconds. People must truly have terrible reaction times to complain about milliseconds. Yes, even in getting headshots, lol.

Again, in case you missed my last post, I could still play on the TV without AMP on, and I would never steer someone completly away from LCD or that TV in general...it was a great TV. I'm sure gamemode would have helped. I just noticed the controls felt better on the older TV. I was just sharing my experience. Quit treating this thread like it's a LCD bashing festival.

Well I ordered the 5020 from amazon. Does anyone have any input on the phosphor trails for Pioneers? I had a panasonic plasma from about 3 years ago that had bad trails. Are the new plasmas any better?

Nice choice! I have a 6020. GAME MODE with Game Pref turned on does not exhibit any lag. The other modes has a slight lag. I have not noticed any of the phospher trails that I have seen on Panasonic plasmas. Be sure to check out the 9G non-elite owners thread in the plasma forum to get the most out of your 5020. I highly recommend following D-Nice's service menu adjustments via Control Cal.

Nice choice! I have a 6020. GAME MODE with Game Pref turned on does not exhibit any lag.
- With Game mode on, the Pioneer's have an input lag of about 30ms. Which is comparable to Samsung LCD's. Not bad, but you will notice it in games like Guitar Hero.

Same thing happened to me last week, I use to be great at COD4 on an SDTV Crt.

got a new 22" LCD 5ms response and theres no blurring image is great But the LAg and input Lag are terrible.

I am pressing left and going right it feels like some times.

Tried it on a buddies Toshiba REGZA, better IPS or PVA panel better colors but it was about the same.

- With Game mode on, the Pioneer's have an input lag of about 30ms. Which is comparable to Samsung LCD's. Not bad, but you will notice it in games like Guitar Hero.

Sorry, but that is not true with the 9G Pioneers. I see zero lag with guitar hero when game mode and game pref is turned on. Another AVS member did a sophisticated test involving computers, cameras and he saw zero lag input.

Nice choice! I have a 6020. GAME MODE with Game Pref turned on does not exhibit any lag. The other modes has a slight lag. I have not noticed any of the phospher trails that I have seen on Panasonic plasmas. Be sure to check out the 9G non-elite owners thread in the plasma forum to get the most out of your 5020. I highly recommend following D-Nice's service menu adjustments via Control Cal.

Thanks! I've been using the break-in DVD for about 50hrs so far. I tried out game mode with game pref on for a few minutes and it was very responsive.