DVE has a color decoder test image and filters. But I have read it is more accurate to use a colormeter to set the color decoder color saturation (luminance). Some have even written you should throw away the filters. I would like to know if people who have used a colormeter have got different settings on the color saturation (luminance) to the ones they get with the DVE filter.

DVE also uses a sharpness test pattern, lines on a grey screen, to look for edge enhancement false contoring. But I have read it is better to use the horizontal frequency sweep test pattern and set sharpness so the black and white lines across the screen do not vary in brightness, equalizing the gain on high & low frequency. Which method do people use and do they give different results.

Yes, I get very different results from measuring color luminance with my i1pro meter & CalMAN than the filters. It is almost always in the direction of the meter tells me to turn the color down lower than the filters do. The meter is far more accurate. Some meters would not be as accurate, though.
Yes, I also get different results from the 2 sharpness methods. When there is give or take, I try to do a balance between the 2 methods; though I lean more to the side of reduce edge enhancement than keeping the frequencies balanced. If it is one or the other, I try to be sensitive to my customer's taste, but reducing edge enhancement is still the priority.

Is the Chroma 5 accurate enough to set the color this way without using the filters?

Also could you possibly explain the method for setting the color with the meter using CalMAN. I'm thinking of purchasing a Chroma 5/CalMAN standard package.

Yes, I get very different results from measuring color luminance with my i1pro meter & CalMAN than the filters. It is almost always in the direction of the meter tells me to turn the color down lower than the filters do. The meter is far more accurate. Some meters would not be as accurate, though.
Yes, I also get different results from the 2 sharpness methods. When there is give or take, I try to do a balance between the 2 methods; though I lean more to the side of reduce edge enhancement than keeping the frequencies balanced. If it is one or the other, I try to be sensitive to my customer's taste, but reducing edge enhancement is still the priority.

Thanks Chad for letting me know. I was unsure if by more accurate they meant a colormeter made it easier to measure - see - setup correctly or if it actually gave different - better results than the alternate methods.

Yes, I get very different results from measuring color luminance with my i1pro meter & CalMAN than the filters. It is almost always in the direction of the meter tells me to turn the color down lower than the filters do. The meter is far more accurate. Some meters would not be as accurate, though.....

When it comes to luminance the i1 Pro is not super accurate either. I find it is off by as much as 10% compared to my PR-670. There are better tools and techniques.

Is the Chroma 5 accurate enough to set the color this way without using the filters?Depends on the tech. For your Kuro, yes.

Also could you possibly explain the method for setting the color with the meter using CalMAN. I'm thinking of purchasing a Chroma 5/CalMAN standard package.For your Kuro, you would want to use 75% stimuli windowed color patterns to equalize the luminance levels compared to a reference 100% stimuli white widowed pattern. In the end, your color setting should be either +2 or +3...no more.

I find it is off by as much as 10% compared to my PR-670.Depends. The i1pro can be up to 10% off in luminance if it have been used for 4+ hours straight. Beyond that, I've only seen it deviate +- 2% max.

There are better tools and techniques. Yes there are better and cheaper tools out there besides the PR-670.

Interesting that your saying that the color setting should end up being no more than +2 or 3.

I had Michael Chen calibrate my 111 and he used a Chroma 5 but just for the Grey Scale, Filters were used to set the colors in Pure and the ISF modes and I see that my color settings are in the +6 to +9 and the CMS is all 0's. Mind you the primary/secondary color points seemed to be right on the money in the triange.

Depends on the tech. For your Kuro, yes.

For your Kuro, you would want to use 75% stimuli windowed color patterns to equalize the luminance levels compared to a reference 100% stimuli white widowed pattern. In the end, your color setting should be either +2 or +3...no more.

Interesting that your saying that the color setting should end up being no more than +2 or 3.

I had Michael Chen calibrate my 111 and he used a Chroma 5 but just for the Grey Scale, Filters were used to set the colors in Pure and the ISF modes and I see that my color settings are in the +6 to +9 and the CMS is all 0's. Mind you the primary/secondary color points seemed to be right on the money in the triange.Unfortunately your color was setup wrong.....to be specific, they are too bright and are overpowering white on multiple stimuli levels.

The only way color filters could be accurate is if they matched the characteristics of the display being calibrated......for you that would be the red, green and blue phosphors in your 111.


Also, I have yet to see/hear of a Kuro (8G, 9G, Elite, Signature series) that did not require modification of the CMS controls. Yellow almost always needs to be moved a click or two to the right.

Interesting that your saying that the color setting should end up being no more than +2 or 3.

I had Michael Chen calibrate my 111 and he used a Chroma 5 but just for the Grey Scale, Filters were used to set the colors in Pure and the ISF modes and I see that my color settings are in the +6 to +9 and the CMS is all 0's. Mind you the primary/secondary color points seemed to be right on the money in the triange.

I'm used to european models, so can't say what range the settings should be in on US models, but setting color using the color filter is a common mistake on Pioneer's, it should be obvious to the naked eye of anyone with experience in calibrations that it looks plain wrong. I have been calibrating professionally for a couple of years now, and I fairly quickly stopped using the filters. Most of my calibrations are on Pioneer's, so I was forced to find other ways right from the start, so now I use measurements combined with subjective analysis whenever compromises have to be made (which is quite often), for instance if the meter tells you that some colors are too bright and others are too dim, and you don't have individual controls for them. In those cases, you really don't have much other choice than to put up some images that you know well (that's where the demonstration material on DVE becomes handy), and adjust until it looks as close as it can get. Obviously this means that you need some experience watching this material on very accurate displays.

Basically, no method of setting color is bullet-proof, if the set isn't capable of 100% accurate color.

BTW, the difference between using the filter and measuring, isn't consistent, its different from each display. Any display with a CMS or color space settings will give you wrong results when using the filter. The reason for this is that if the display has a wide gamut with the choice of a smaller, more accurate gamut, it blends i.e. some green and blue to the red primary to create a new, "virtual" primary. If you use a red filter, you will filter out the amount of green and blue in the red primary, and only see the brightness of the native primary, not the new virtual primary which is what we're concerned about. When measuring the brightness instead, you measure the total light output of the virtual primary, which should give you much more accurate results.

DVE also uses a sharpness test pattern, lines on a grey screen, to look for edge enhancement false contoring. But I have read it is better to use the horizontal frequency sweep test pattern and set sharpness so the black and white lines across the screen do not vary in brightness, equalizing the gain on high & low frequency. Which method do people use and do they give different results.

I'm with Chad on this one: Don't use one or the other, use both and find the right compromise. I don't think one method is better than the other, it depends on the display. With a perfect display it will give the same result, but no display is perfect...

Rule #1 for calibrators: The goal is not to make perfect measurements. The goal is to make perfect pictures. The measurements are just the tools needed to get there.

...Rule #1 for calibrators: The goal is not to make perfect measurements. The goal is to make perfect pictures. The measurements are just the tools needed to get there.

So true, but great tools and technique are a huge aid in getting the best image from a given product. People forget what assumptions they are making and the limitations of their tools when they are working with a product. They then believe what they are doing is improving things when that may not be the case at all. The final results are what truly matters in the end. Unfortunately, most products cannot be perfect so the final results will frequently depend on some level of judgment.

Yes there are better and cheaper tools out there besides the PR-670.

I'm intrigued... what in the world out there is both better AND cheaper?

What makes me wonder is the fact that Michael Chen is no novice when it comes to calibrating displays and has a lot of experience with the Pioneer Elites so why would he make a mistake like this?

Also why then were all the color points accurate and in the correct spot on the graph in Colorfacts?

I know he used the filters first but then used know reference material(flesh tones) to make the final color settings but still no adjustments in the CMS?

Unfortunately your color was setup wrong.....to be specific, they are too bright and are overpowering white on multiple stimuli levels.

The only way color filters could be accurate is if they matched the characteristics of the display being calibrated......for you that would be the red, green and blue phosphors in your 111.


Also, I have yet to see/hear of a Kuro (8G, 9G, Elite, Signature series) that did not require modification of the CMS controls. Yellow almost always needs to be moved a click or two to the right.

I'm intrigued... what in the world out there is both better AND cheaper?Well, it hasn't been officially released but I would pay attention to what SpectraCal starts to OEM ;)

What makes me wonder is the fact that Michael Chen is no novice when it comes to calibrating displays and has a lot of experience with the Pioneer Elites so why would he make a mistake like this?That is a question you would need to ask him. However, a color setting of +6 - +9 using color filters is flat out wrong for the 111FDs.

Also why then were all the color points accurate and in the correct spot on the graph in Colorfacts?Colorfacts color charts are 2D. You could have a color setting of +12 on the 111FD and it would still line up per a CIE chart.

I know he used the filters first but then used know reference material(flesh tones) to make the final color settings but still no adjustments in the CMS?Flesh tones with your current color setting is too rosy. Also, you cannot adjust a CMS with regular material. You need to use test patterns....espcically with the 111FD as the CMS controls are very finicky and you can screw up the grayscale is you push it too far.

Use the before and after function on the remote to toggle between color of +6 and +2 or +3 while a Blu ray is paused on a good scene. Your eyes will tell you what setting is more accurate, and the detail will pop out at you.

Well, it hasn't been officially released but I would pay attention to what SpectraCal starts to OEM ;)

I'm a turkey in suspense...
Don't know why though, I'm sure whatever it is still won't be in MY price range... ;)