Hi
I am in the process of upgrading my theater system, I am not sure if going about this correctly. I want to buy a high end prepro (along with other upgrades) and I see that some prepros upconvert, I also see that some high end dvd players also upconvert. can I buy a high quality dvd player that does not up convert or does it matter? I have read that there are differant chips that perform the upconvert so would there be a conflict in upconverting or a quality differance? Thanks for any advice


Thanks
Johny

By far the best quality is obtained from higher end players. Receivers tend to have lower quality video processing unless you spend a bunch.

Terminology: Upscaling refers to scaling 480 video (DVD) to 1080. Upconverting is erroneously used by many hardware sellers to mean the same thing. But upconverting really just refers to converting analog to digital, as in to HDMI outputs. Many AVRs called "upconverting" really just convert to digital and do not actually scale to 1080.

Your monitor scales ALL inputs to it's native resolution, usually 1080, 720 or 768. As often as not, new monitors do a very acceptable job of this. So there's really no reason to get an upscaling/upconverting AVR unless you need the switching and your monitor has too few inputs. But for the most part it's best to let your AVR just pass video unprocessed, meaning you run a monitor output for each of the types of inputs you have to different inputs on the display. Save your money, rather than spending it on a AVR with expensive video processing, spend it on a good player. The only thing the AVR needs to do is be able to process HDMI audio.

There are no "high quality" players that do not have HDMI and upscaling. If you want to get your feet wet for less money, go for an Oppo 980 player. If you want the best, get the Oppo 983.

[QUOTE=rdgrimes;15181825]By far the best quality is obtained from higher end players. Receivers tend to have lower quality video processing unless you spend a bunch.

Terminology: Upscaling refers to scaling 480 video (DVD) to 1080. Upconverting is erroneously used by many hardware sellers to mean the same thing. But upconverting really just refers to converting analog to digital, as in to HDMI outputs. Many AVRs called "upconverting" really just convert to digital and do not actually scale to 1080.

Your monitor scales ALL inputs to it's native resolution, usually 1080, 720 or 768. As often as not, new monitors do a very acceptable job of this. So there's really no reason to get an upscaling/upconverting AVR unless you need the switching and your monitor has too few inputs. But for the most part it's best to let your AVR just pass video unprocessed, meaning you run a monitor output for each of the types of inputs you have to different inputs on the display. Save your money, rather than spending it on a AVR with expensive video processing, spend it on a good player. The only thing the AVR needs to do is be able to process HDMI audio.

There are no "high quality" players that do not have HDMI and upscaling. If you want to get your feet wet for less money, go for an Oppo 980 player. If you want the best, get the Oppo 983.[/QUOTE

Thanks for the reply, I am using a projector, no monitor so no upconverting at this time

Thanks for the reply, I am using a projector, no monitor so no upconverting at this time

What type projector? Most of them have native resolutions too, and do their own scaling.

I've been looking at picture quality between my upscaling components and am surprised by the results. I used The Incredibles at the early scene at the office with the old lady getting denied her claim (paused when showing Mr. Inc and his computer and also playing). Here's what I found on my equipment:

My TV is a Sony XBR4 52". All resolutions were verified at the TV display. Everything is HDMI.

Onkyo PR-SC885 preamp (HQV Reon VX) with no upscaling and Denon 955 player (Faroudja FLI-2310) upscaling at 1080i or 720P created more jagged edges and didn't look as good as when the Denon wasn't upscaling. At 480P, lines looked smooth.

With the Onkyo upscaling to 1080P with Denon not upscaling, it created the same jagged edges. It was almost the same picture as when the Denon upscaled. Both of them upscaling at the same time looked pretty much the same, too.

I ran the same tests on my PS3 with the Normal upscale setting, 1080P, and it was better than both the Denon and Onkyo, but I still saw a minor amount of jagged edges compared to the PS3 without upscaling. If I turned on upscaling on the Onkyo with the PS3 not upscaling, it looked jagged like the result with the Denon.

I can't find a lot of specific testing as I mentioned here to verify what I'm seeing, but I'm fairly certain I've covered most common options with the equipment above. I'd also think the quality of these models is fairly high. So why does it look this way? I expected smooth lines and a better picture. I didn't expect to prefer the 480P setting in all (or any) cases. Is better considered a preference in this case?

I've been looking at picture quality between my upscaling components and am surprised by the results. I used The Incredibles at the early scene at the office with the old lady getting denied her claim (paused when showing Mr. Inc and his computer and also playing). Here's what I found on my equipment:

My TV is a Sony XBR4 52". All resolutions were verified at the TV display. Everything is HDMI.

Onkyo PR-SC885 preamp (HQV Reon VX) with no upscaling and Denon 955 player (Faroudja FLI-2310) upscaling at 1080i or 720P created more jagged edges and didn't look as good as when the Denon wasn't upscaling. At 480P, lines looked smooth.

With the Onkyo upscaling to 1080P with Denon not upscaling, it created the same jagged edges. It was almost the same picture as when the Denon upscaled. Both of them upscaling at the same time looked pretty much the same, too.

I ran the same tests on my PS3 with the Normal upscale setting, 1080P, and it was better than both the Denon and Onkyo, but I still saw a minor amount of jagged edges compared to the PS3 without upscaling. If I turned on upscaling on the Onkyo with the PS3 not upscaling, it looked jagged like the result with the Denon.

I can't find a lot of specific testing as I mentioned here to verify what I'm seeing, but I'm fairly certain I've covered most common options with the equipment above. I'd also think the quality of these models is fairly high. So why does it look this way? I expected smooth lines and a better picture. I didn't expect to prefer the 480P setting in all (or any) cases. Is better considered a preference in this case?

Jaggies is generally a de-interlacing error, so whichever component has the best de-interlacing will look the best. Some content is more likely to show this than others. Once de-interlaced to 480p, the scaling to 1080p will look much the same on any component with very slight differences. Your display is always scaling. The best way to evaluate the different components in the chain for de-interlacing is to set the player to output 480i, but many players will not output 480i over HDMI. I would expect your players to do the best job of de-interlacing AND upscaling to 1080p.

It's not very clear from your description just how you set everything when you did your comparison. I think I would connect the players directly to the monitor for accurate evaluation of their de-interlacing and upscaling.

The Denon is an older player, though not cheap, but what you say may be true. The deinterlacing difference could explain why the PS3 didn't have much of a problem with its own upscaling compared to what I saw on the Denon and its own upscaling. Though if a deinterlacing issue exists, I'm not sure why the Denon 480P output still looks good and also why the PS3 output still looks bad when the preamp is upscaling. Is it possible that the issue is there, but not noticable at the lower resolution?

The Denon is an older player, though not cheap, but what you say may be true. The deinterlacing difference could explain why the PS3 didn't have much of a problem with its own upscaling compared to what I saw on the Denon and its own upscaling. Though if a deinterlacing issue exists, I'm not sure why the Denon 480P output still looks good and also why the PS3 output still looks bad when the preamp is upscaling. Is it possible that the issue is there, but not noticable at the lower resolution?
Hard to say. Outputting 480p means it's already de-interlaced. I know nothing about the Onkyo but if it gets you a better image just bypass it. I'm not sure if you can turn off all processing in the Onkyo. In any case I would be outputting 1080p from any player unless I could demonstrate a better way.

Thanks for the replies. I've got an interlace option on the Denon, but I don't think that applies to the HDMI connection since 480P is the lowest format option. The Onkyo is set to the Through setting unless I specify an upscale option, and I turned off the tv display option, so it shouldn't be interfering. All I can think is that the tv is doing something, but I don't see any options outside of Motion Enhancer and Cinemotion, and they're both off. (Changing these makes no difference in the upscale quality.) It's odd, but I guess 480P gives the best dvd picture quality on my system as far as I can tell. If I figure anything out I'll post back.

Sorry I can't help with the original question. I was hoping to be able to report a nice improvement with the Reon. Out of my upscaling options, the PS3 Normal upscaling looked the best, preamp and dvd player upscaling looked about the same but worse, with maybe a slight edge to the preamp.

Thanks for the replies. I've got an interlace option on the Denon, but I don't think that applies to the HDMI connection since 480P is the lowest format option. The Onkyo is set to the Through setting unless I specify an upscale option, and I turned off the tv display option, so it shouldn't be interfering. All I can think is that the tv is doing something, but I don't see any options outside of Motion Enhancer and Cinemotion, and they're both off. (Changing these makes no difference in the upscale quality.) It's odd, but I guess 480P gives the best dvd picture quality on my system as far as I can tell. If I figure anything out I'll post back.

Sorry I can't help with the original question. I was hoping to be able to report a nice improvement with the Reon. Out of my upscaling options, the PS3 Normal upscaling looked the best, preamp and dvd player upscaling looked about the same but worse, with maybe a slight edge to the preamp.

Don't quote me on this, but I seem to recall some talk of the Onkyos doing video processing regardless of the "through" setting. You might want to have a look in the Onkyo thread.

I think I've got this figured out. Apparently, the XBR4 Bravia Engine upscaling is kicking all the butt. The display is showing the input resolution per the Official Sony XBR4/5 Owners Thread, but everything that comes in is upscaled to 1080P at the display. So if my other components upscale, it looks worse than if I let the XBR4 do it. So that's my answer. Sony XBR4 beats the Onkyo Reon, Denon Faroudja FLI-2310 and PS3. And from what I'm seeing, it beats them easily (except that the PS3 is pretty close). I'm just leaving all my component upscaling off going forward.

For the Onkyo, everything I've read says if you have output set to Through and Immediate Display set to Off, the Reon doesn't interfere. I hope that's correct.

I think I've got this figured out. Apparently, the XBR4 Bravia Engine upscaling is kicking all the butt. The display is showing the input resolution per the Official Sony XBR4/5 Owners Thread, but everything that comes in is upscaled to 1080P at the display. So if my other components upscale, it looks worse than if I let the XBR4 do it. So that's my answer. Sony XBR4 beats the Onkyo Reon, Denon Faroudja FLI-2310 and PS3. And from what I'm seeing, it beats them easily (except that the PS3 is pretty close). I'm just leaving all my component upscaling off going forward.

For the Onkyo, everything I've read says if you have output set to Through and Immediate Display set to Off, the Reon doesn't interfere. I hope that's correct.

I would confirm that by bypassing the Onkyo and trying all players direct to the display to see if the results are the same.

I did that tonight. It looks like the results are the same, so I'm fairly sure the preamp isn't affecting the signal when it's set to not use the Reon. I also hooked up a BDP-S350 bluray player tonight to test bitstream HD audio against the PS3. With the dvd, it gave me the same upscaling results as the PS3. They both come through ok on the tv and look indistinguishable from each other when upscaling. Using no upscaling still looks to be the best feed to the tv in all cases, but I think you'd have difficulty saying there's a noticable difference using the PS3 or S350 while upscaling in a normal viewing experience. The fact that these are all Sony could mean that there's some signal incompatibility with the non-Sony components, if that's possible. I wish I had another tv or projector to test that theory.