Ok, so I'm going to join the 21st century and get an HDTV. Being a tech-savy guy, I figure a couple of weeks on the net will narrow it down to a handful of choices. How wrong I was... After getting past the plasma vs LCD, the 1080 vs 720, and the videophile co-workers picks that begin at ridiculously expensive, I'm as confused as ever. Every TV from the Pioneer to the Vizio has its fanboys and its haters. A trip to the mall is useless since they all look equally good (or is it bad since they're all set up wrong?).

So are there any bad 46" $1500 TV's out there? Will it really make a difference if I get a PZ85U versus a PZ80U or an LNA550 versus an LNA630 or even a PZ85U versus an LNA550? Are the differences so glaring or are we nitpicking here?

BTW, has anyone ever done a "blind" comparison where they hide everything but the screen so that brand or model bias isn't a factor?

Thanks, all!

IMO, it all comes down to personal preference. I really like the way that these guys break it down: http://www.hdtvsolutions.com/ and i feel like CNET is overly critical and brand biased. Hopefully they can help you out a little. But really IMO it comes down to what catches your own eye.

BTW, has anyone ever done a "blind" comparison where they hide everything but the screen so that brand or model bias isn't a factor?

Excellent question! I will bet my paycheck against a cup of coffee that the answer is no. A blind test would have to be done by a disinterested, truth-seeking party. First, there are no such people in the TV business. Second, those asked to evaluate would have to be without bias and prejudice, like the jurors at a trial, not the experts or the AVS readers as they would have no difficulty in telling a plasma from an LCD and, as a result of such determination, remain truly objective.

Excellent question! I will bet my paycheck against a cup of coffee that the answer is no. A blind test would have to be done by a disinterested, truth-seeking party. First, there are no such people in the TV business. Second, those asked to evaluate would have to be without bias and prejudice, like the jurors at a trial, not the experts or the AVS readers as they would have no difficulty in telling a plasma from an LCD and, as a result of such determination, remain truly objective.

Amen.

It is a test that I would love to see and try for myself though.

.... and i feel like CNET is overly critical and brand biased. .....

in what way?



TVbc

It's simple. You have to buy the exact same television I chose when I went shopping. If you choose the same set, then I win but if you choose some other set (no matter how different your needs, budget, or preferences may be) then I lose. I will argue for hour and hours on end to make sure that I win because my petty rationalizations hinge on building a consensus among strangers I've never met before on an online message board.

Make sense? :)

It's simple. You have to buy the exact same television I chose when I went shopping. If you choose the same set, then I win but if you choose some other set (no matter how different your needs, budget, or preferences may be) then I lose. I will argue for hour and hours on end to make sure that I win because my petty rationalizations hinge on building a consensus among strangers I've never met before on an online message board.

Make sense? :)

Depending upon which AVS sub-forum you are in, just replace Television, with
DVD player, Amp, Receiver, Cables and most of all, Speakers.

Great Post ! :D

It's simple. You have to buy the exact same television I chose when I went shopping. If you choose the same set, then I win but if you choose some other set (no matter how different your needs, budget, or preferences may be) then I lose. I will argue for hour and hours on end to make sure that I win because my petty rationalizations hinge on building a consensus among strangers I've never met before on an online message board.

Make sense? :)

Welcome to AVS.


To the OP. Any TV you get, will be a huge improvement over what you have now, as the content that becomes available, is by far better.

...Any TV you get, will be a huge improvement over what you have now....
Agreed, but also know that your cable company will thank you when you add all the high def boxes to your present subscription. Pretty soon you will learn that you need to replace any TV that you watch, including your bedroom and office area simply because everything else looks so 'out of date'!

To answer you question though, yes, there are some significant differences between sets when you get to the larger sizes, but I really believe those differences do not show enough in the smaller sizes, or to the less critical viewer. High def alone makes the old TV viewing obsolete no matter what your budget. Right now, with the discontinuation of the 46" plasma, the Panasonic 800u is the best buy, however you need to pull the trigger on one very soon because they are hot items. Try Forum sponsor Cleveland Plasma for one.

As we convert to digital from analog, the cable subscribers will discover what I already have experienced. They will find out that their new plasmas or LCDs will need cable decoders even if they do not need or want HD because the analog cable channels look like crap. The good old CRTs had no probems delivering more than decent PQ from the analog channels. Not so with with the fixed-pixel marvels we have to buy today. To get anything close to watchable we now need a digital cable box per set for an extra fee.

Welcome to AVS.

I've been here over seven years longer than you have. Shouldn't I be welcoming you? :)

I've been here over seven years longer than you have. Shouldn't I be welcoming you? :)

Was actually directed torwards the OP, as your intro was pretty spot on. ;)

I think there are significant differences that most users never encounter.

The Tier 1 venders are Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, Panasaonic, and Sharp. These guys are in the market for the long haul and wherever you are, you can get parts and service for these products. Tier 2 vendors are similar but service and parts are limited to major cities and market countries.

Tier 3 venders are everybody that has product contract-manufactured and has no service organization or spare parts system. For the length of the warranty, you can get the set exchanged for a factory-serviced set. The day after the warranty expires, the set is a total loss at the first failure.

It's possible to acquire a Tier 3 set at a substantually lower price than a Tier 1 set and for most users who never require service, it is hard to understand why you would ever pay Tier 1 pricing. But experience a total loss on a $1500 HDTV, and you'll understand real well.

It's simple. You have to buy the exact same television I chose when I went shopping. If you choose the same set, then I win but if you choose some other set (no matter how different your needs, budget, or preferences may be) then I lose. I will argue for hour and hours on end to make sure that I win because my petty rationalizations hinge on building a consensus among strangers I've never met before on an online message board.

Make sense? :)
Truer words were never spoken.

I think there are significant differences that most users never encounter.

The Tier 1 venders are Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, Panasaonic, and Sharp. These guys are in the market for the long haul and wherever you are, you can get parts and service for these products. Tier 2 vendors are similar but service and parts are limited to major cities and market countries.

Tier 3 venders are everybody that has product contract-manufactured and has no service organization or spare parts system. For the length of the warranty, you can get the set exchanged for a factory-serviced set. The day after the warranty expires, the set is a total loss at the first failure.

It's possible to acquire a Tier 3 set at a substantually lower price than a Tier 1 set and for most users who never require service, it is hard to understand why you would ever pay Tier 1 pricing. But experience a total loss on a $1500 HDTV, and you'll understand real well.

Completely agree. I can tell immediately the picture difference between a Sony and a Vizio.

It's simple. You have to buy the exact same television I chose when I went shopping. If you choose the same set, then I win but if you choose some other set (no matter how different your needs, budget, or preferences may be) then I lose. I will argue for hour and hours on end to make sure that I win because my petty rationalizations hinge on building a consensus among strangers I've never met before on an online message board.

Make sense? :)

So are you saying you are jealous of my Kuro?

So are you saying you are jealous of my Kuro?

You just made his point BOZO. Just because your married a women with a RICH father and he bought it for you, don't bring us all down!!

You just made his point BOZO. Just because your married a women with a RICH father and he bought it for you, don't bring us all down!!

Not much I can say about that one.

Not much I can say about that one.

I can! I'm jealous about the TV and and the rich father!!!! She got a sister? :)

I can't say that I've ever done a blind comparison, but I think it would be fun. I personally can absolutely see the difference in the deepness of colors between the PZ80 and 85 series TVs. When you go shopping, ask for the associate to turn both sets off, and you can see that the 85 actually looks blacker when it is off. Between all of them listed I think I would go for the 85U. The 550 is a solid 1080P set that is of good quality with decent black levels. The 630 is the base model 120htz set from samsung with slightly lower black levels than the rest of their TOC series. Plasmas operate naturally at 480htz, so they don't have the motion blur problem that LCDs can encounter, so that won't be an issue for you if you go with a plasma. Burn in is pretty much no longer an issue with the higher end plasma manufacturers because of the anti image retention technology that is now being put into the TVs. Pioneer, Panasonic, and Samsung are three of the TVs that I know with what is called Pixel shifting/Pixel orbiting that prevents burn in. Something to look for --which should be obvious if your looking it-- are black levels when you compare the plasmas to the LCDs. LCD screens will never get a true black for all intensive purposes (excludes LED back lighting, but that's a whole other bag of cats). When your picking out your TV, look for the time between commercials when the TV shows a dark screen for a few seconds and compare the sets that you are looking at. The one with the deepest black is going to give you the best picture. I hope I could be of some help to you. This is just kind of basic stuff but it should help out a little bit.

As we convert to digital from analog, the cable subscribers will discover what I already have experienced. They will find out that their new plasmas or LCDs will need cable decoders even if they do not need or want HD because the analog cable channels look like crap. The good old CRTs had no probems delivering more than decent PQ from the analog channels. Not so with with the fixed-pixel marvels we have to buy today. To get anything close to watchable we now need a digital cable box per set for an extra fee.

Even with a cable decoder the picture looks like crap. If it ain't full screen HD the picture looks like crap. If it ain't full screen HD or at minimum an upconverted DVD, I won't watch it. I refuse to regress to a less advanced state of television.:D

Even with a cable decoder the picture looks like crap. If it ain't full screen HD the picture looks like crap. If it ain't full screen HD or at minimum an upconverted DVD, I won't watch it. I refuse to regress to a less advanced state of television.:D

But how do you watch Lifetime?

Excellent question! I will bet my paycheck against a cup of coffee that the answer is no. A blind test would have to be done by a disinterested, truth-seeking party. First, there are no such people in the TV business. Second, those asked to evaluate would have to be without bias and prejudice, like the jurors at a trial, not the experts or the AVS readers as they would have no difficulty in telling a plasma from an LCD and, as a result of such determination, remain truly objective.

I never thought I'd find myself defending plasmas---but here it is: I think the blind test may give you some unbiased answer on what tv is actually better, BUT one huge factor you can't "test" that way is price. And some people have more money to spend than others, but the bottom line is that ALMOST everybody buys their tv with price as an important consideration. For example- people who are truly seeking the best picture quality aren't going to ditch the $2,500 50" panasonic plasma for a Dynex 42" LCD to save $1,500. Thats not what I'm saying. But when you get to the final rounds of a decision, and have narrowed it down to 2 or 3 tvs you really like, a huge "plus" for one of those tvs might be the fact that its $500 cheaper. Hey, that $500 is a nice start to getting some other components teo go with your new tv :)

So I would rephrase the question of the original poster as follows: Its not "are there any bad tvs out there?" It's really what tvs are unworthy of the price tags they carry? In other words, in a blind test, can I tell the difference between this $2,500 tv and a $1999 tv, that is the same size, playing the same source material? I have to admit, when deciding to get my Samsung A650, I threw price out the window (because I had the A630 for like $500 less, LOL). But not everybody shops like that, so it should be a consideration.

To answer the original question, YES, there is a such thing as a bad TV. If some poor guy is spending two paychecks on a tv, when he could have a tv for half that price, and in a blind test he can't tell the difference between the two, then the more expensive tv is a "bad tv" for him. Does that make sense? This isn't a car where you buy a BMW because its a BMW. Its not just about does one drive the same as the other, there are alot more important differences between a BMW and a FORD than just how they drive. But for 2 tvs that are the same size and resolution, not much else matters other than performance. So the performance:price ratio is alot more important.

So are there any bad 46" $1500 TV's out there? YES

Will it really make a difference if I get a PZ85U versus a PZ80U or an LNA550 versus an LNA630 or even a PZ85U versus an LNA550? YES

Are the differences so glaring? YES

or are we nitpicking here? NO

BTW, has anyone ever done a "blind" comparison where they hide everything but the screen so that brand or model bias isn't a factor? YES

Thanks, all!

answers nested in above quote

So are there any bad 46" $1500 TV's out there? YES

Will it really make a difference if I get a PZ85U versus a PZ80U or an LNA550 versus an LNA630 or even a PZ85U versus an LNA550? YES

Are the differences so glaring? YES

or are we nitpicking here? NO

BTW, has anyone ever done a "blind" comparison where they hide everything but the screen so that brand or model bias isn't a factor? YES

Examples please!!

Examples please!!

Out of the group you have selected - lets go to the extremes. Place an 85U and an A550 in "your" home side by side for at least 3 weeks to live with them, then you can decide.

The sound on all 4 models sux - so just forget that.

Watch as much live sports as you can on both.

Watch as much high quality BluRay as you can stand. Look for black details, fast action, overall color accuracy.

Will more that "one" person be watching at a time? Do you sit in only "one" chair or move about the room (chair/couch/whatever)?


It takes most people about 3 weeks to become aware on the strong points and weak points of the TV they have selected; in many cases the weak points are so overwelming you would not want the TV set at all.

Good Luck

Imo it's really nitpicking. I assume you aren't the overly critical type. The type of guy that can't watch hd without a laptop running control cal. The TV's you list are good choices. Just focus on how the tv would integrate into your viewing environment, reliability, size, lighting, remote, tv menu etc. Consider reasons aside from the obvious why you would return a tv and work from that angle as well. I don't think all of us can accurately guage the cost of incremental pq improvements for you. Go to a b&m store have them play some material you are familiar with, fall in love with a tv, have them price match the lowest price you find online, and post in the got a new HDtv thread when finished.:)

Out of the group you have selected - lets go to the extremes. Place an 85U and an A550 in "your" home side by side for at least 3 weeks to live with them, then you can decide.

The sound on all 4 models sux - so just forget that.

Watch as much live sports as you can on both.

Watch as much high quality BluRay as you can stand. Look for black details, fast action, overall color accuracy.

Will more that "one" person be watching at a time? Do you sit in only "one" chair or move about the room (chair/couch/whatever)?


It takes most people about 3 weeks to become aware on the strong points and weak points of the TV they have selected; in many cases the weak points are so overwelming you would not want the TV set at all.

Good Luck

So basically, it's totally random whether a particular model is any good. There's no way to tell if a given set will be unwatchable until you've had it for a few weeks. So why bother reviewing TV's? If CNET or HDGuru says that model X is a decent TV, it means nothing since everything is purely subjective. In fact, most of this forum is irrelevant since nothing anyone says is meaningful. Great...

In fact, most of this forum is irrelevant since nothing anyone says is meaningful. Great...

Finally, a voice of reason. AVS and other forums are places where too many guys come to bond and argue to validate their purchases. It is also a spectator place like pro wrestling. Entertaining but not much beyond that. The proof that I am correct is in the very high number of participants who already bought their sets and like what they have. If you already have your dream TV why are you still here? Like me, for example. Instead of enjoying my LCDs I am wasting my time writing this post. At least I am honest enough to admit it.

I know what is coming: don't you want to help? No, not really as I don't really care what set somebody I don't even know will end up with. Again, I am being honest.

About a year ago I started analyzing and researching and reading and comparing the RPTVs, plasmas, and LCDs. My head was spinning. When I thought I was done I took my wife to a store to show her my dream LiFi RP Panasonic and, hopefully, seal the deal. That Panasonic, by the way, was discontinued next year because they couldn't give them away for free. Well, almost.

Luckily, it took her less than a minute to say something about my choice I can't repeat here, followed by "if you want a TV buy this (she was pointing to a 52-inch Sony) and I don't care how much it is". Eventually, she was right and all it took her was a quick look instead of months of mind-bending analysis.

So, here is my best advice for all of you who are still on the fence: Stop the pain and take your girlfriend or wife - borrow one if you must - to the nearest b&m, give her the size you want and go for a walk. You are going to end up with a great set or a happy wife or both.

Finally, a voice of reason. AVS and other forums are places where too many guys come to bond and argue to validate their purchases.That and the "industry shills".

But there is good information and advice here if you know where and how to find it and sort it out, albeit that can be pretty difficult much of the time.

That and the "industry shills".

But there is good information and advice here if you know where and how to find it and sort it out, albeit that can be pretty difficult much of the time.

The difficulty in finding useful information forces us to make reading AVS almost daily. It is inefficient for us but probably good for the ad business.

One of the wierd aspects of looking for it is that the negative opinions are so much more valuable than the positive ones. "I love my set" is mostly useless as "love" - even when the object of one's love is an appliance like a TV set - is usually blind and probably lacking in objectivity. A specific and negative opinion from an owner is both very credible and helpful. It is also rare as few people are honest enough to admit they made a mistake or want to risk being accused of "bashing" or being a troll.

The difficulty in finding useful information forces us to make reading AVS almost daily. It is inefficient for us but probably good for the ad business.

One of the wierd aspects of looking for it is that the negative opinions are so much more valuable than the positive ones. "I love my set" is mostly useless as "love" - even when the object of one's love is an appliance like a TV set - is usually blind and probably lacking in objectivity. A specific and negative opinion from an owner is both very credible and helpful. It is also rare as few people are honest enough to admit they made a mistake or want to risk being accused of "bashing" or being a troll.

For the most part I'd agree that most people on here don't know all the minute ins and outs of TV buying, construction, quality, and when it comes down to it, they don't know what they are looking at alot of the time. It's good to get help from the members that DO know at least a little about what they are talking about, and one of those can be found in most threads and the search button. It may take some time, but all answers will come out sooner or later. I would take negative reviews with a grain of salt, but when you work with TVs and sell them as a living you can see through many of the problems that can occur with them, and the inherent shortcomings in the panel they chose that they couldn't see at the time of purchase, just because they were awestruck by the brightness, price, or some other feature that wouldn't matter when they were actually using it for their end game everyday application. Every TV is going to have thier pros, cons, fanboys and haters. If you absolutly want a great set, your going to have to do alot of research, try to get as much as of it from direct sources, instead opinions of other people. Try wikipedia to get an idea of how technologies work (not always accurate but a good starting point), figure out what will go well in your room to fit your needs, and go look at them for yourself. Train yourself to see the imperfections in the TV sets that your looking at so you know what you will be getting. Examples of this would be jutter in LCDs, black levels, sound quality, picture quality, and construction. There are more, but you can find those on your own.

I guess what I'm trying to say if you want the best TV for the money, train yourself in what to look for, then figure out what the best looking one for the money is when you evaluate the pros and cons.











and KURO's ftw. I love my KURO :P

Train yourself to see the imperfections in the TV sets that your looking at so you know what you will be getting. Examples of this would be jutter in LCDs, black levels, sound quality, picture quality, and construction. There are more, but you can find those on your own.

I guess what I'm trying to say if you want the best TV for the money, train yourself in what to look for, then figure out what the best looking one for the money is when you evaluate the pros and cons.


I totally agree! I ended up purchasing a 46PZ85U based on a general consensus from multiple sources that it's a decent TV and that it didn't look bad when I saw it it the store. However, at one point I was actually considering buying a much cheaper TV (i.e. $500 42" 720p) as a "starter" TV to learn all the things I disliked about it so I would be able to make a more informed decision when I bought the "keeper" TV.

all LCD TV's if viewing angle is important to you.