We just got a letter from our cable company warning of yet another price increase (just less than $3 a month, but still the third increase in 3 years). Once again it leads me to contemplate getting a TiVo HD and just dumping the HD DVR from the cable company (and going with their HD service and Cablecard).

I am looking for opinions from others in a similar situation, i.e. folks who used to have HD DVR cable and made the move to TiVo HD, and your opinion of both. Was it worth it? Which is really better? Are cablecards still problematic?

BTW right now we've got a Scientific Atlanta 8300HD DVR. I've been very happy with it thusfar, and it's given us only a little trouble (not much though), but the cable rates are getting to be a bit much, hence the reason we're thinking of switching. Yet I hesitate because I've loved having/using the DVR....

Thanks in advance!

DGK

Would you actually save any money by going with a Tivo? Even if you got the Tivo for free, you're looking at what, $13/month for the Tivo Service and maybe $2/month for the cablecard. How much is the cableco's DVR? If it's $15/month, then you break even.

And that's if you get the Tivo for free. Of course you could pre-pay and get the Tivo service for less, and perhaps you can get a CableCard for free. Do your own math to see what it means to you.

Keep in mind, that getting Tivo means that you'd gain Amazon Unbox, TivoToGo, 14-day guide, better OS, and I think Netflix. You'd lose access to VOD and potentially more if your cable system uses SDV.

note - I have neither a Tivo or a cable companies DVR. I use a Sony DVR with Comcast.

If you want a TivoHD without fees, it will cost you significantly more. Here is TiVo's order page (http://www3.tivo.com/promo/customerholiday/index.html) for its boxes without any fees.

Most people elect to buy the version of the TivoHD with fees ($199 @ Costco) and pay $12.99/mo or $129/yr. You may or may not save money over your cable company in the long haul. In many areas, like mine, the provider basically hits you twice for the cable DVR; they charge you $5 to $8 for the hardware rental, and then another $13 to $16 for the DVR service itself, for a total of $18-$25/mo. The TiVo fee is about $10/mo when you pay by the year ($129/yr), so even if you are paying that much, it would take you almost two years to pay off the initial cost of the TiVo.

I think there are many reasons to buy a TiVoHD for cable service -- such as superior usability, reliability, capacity expansion, streaming Netflix HD, remote scheduling, and the ability to download recordings to your computer -- but saving money is not really one of them.

You can find TiVo tips and screenshots in this AVS post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11126048&postcount=5).

Tivo gets you a much nicer user experience. Add in Netflix streaming and Amazon Unbox and in my opinion it is a no brainer.

Tivo will also allow you to schedule your recording over your mobile phone!

If you are OK with spending the money, Tivo is no doubt the better product.

FWIW I have an SA 8300 DVR from Cox. I have also seen the new HD Tivo. Frankly, they are not even in the same league in terms of fit and finish and overall quality :)

Thanks for the input, everyone. If we did go with the TiVo we'd probably buy one of the refurb ones that TiVo is offering ($179) but there is the monthly fee. We do get hosed over the fees we have to pay just to have the DVR...I have a Panny DVD recorder as well, but use the DVR a lot more often.

Ah...in the end, I will probably end up just doing nothing again, like I did last year when the cable prices went up! LOL Thanks again.

DGK

Thanks for the input, everyone. If we did go with the TiVo we'd probably buy one of the refurb ones that TiVo is offering ($179) but there is the monthly fee. We do get hosed over the fees we have to pay just to have the DVR...I have a Panny DVD recorder as well, but use the DVR a lot more often.

Ah...in the end, I will probably end up just doing nothing again, like I did last year when the cable prices went up! LOL Thanks again.

DGK I got the refurb $179 Tivo HD with the lifetime service. Then I got the Tivo extender at amazon. That was the biggest factor for me, I needed the space for recording. The Comcast dvr drive is too small. One thing you can also do is transfer files from your tivo to a PC and then transfer back when you want to watch them or stream from t he PC. However either way is pretty slow on a wireless network. But if you know to plan ahead and xfer a file overnite, i's fine.

Thanks for the input, everyone. If we did go with the TiVo we'd probably buy one of the refurb ones that TiVo is offering ($179) but there is the monthly fee. We do get hosed over the fees we have to pay just to have the DVR...I have a Panny DVD recorder as well, but use the DVR a lot more often.Be aware that Costcos in many areas offer new TivoHD DVRs for $199. If you are planning to get lifetime service ($399) to eliminate all service fees, you can buy a new TivoHD for the equivalent of $150 direct from TiVo.com (http://www.tkqlhce.com/click-3136390-10404294?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww3.tivo.com%2Fpromo%2Fcustomerho liday%2Findex.html).

Refurbs include boxes that people returned, either from TiVo.com or at retail. I'm sure TiVo tests them to see that they work, but just because TiVo didn't find problems doesn't mean there aren't any. I would personally feel safer with a new unit, especially if the difference is only $20.

If you do buy the TivoHD, I would budget another $125 for a drive upgrade, either a 1TB internal drive replacement (http://www.buy.com/prod/western-digital-av-gp-wd10evcs-hard-drive-1tb-serial-ata-300-serial/q/loc/101/206827123.html) or the "officially supported" 500Gb Western Digital "My DVR Expander." A 1TB drive upgrade will provide 157+ HD hours capacity, whereas the "My DVR Expander" will increase capacity to 86 HD hours. See the bottom of the first post in this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370784) for step-by-step upgrade instructions. Of course, make sure the TiVo works as it should with the original drive before you do any internal or external drive upgrade (especially with refurbs).

If you are planning to get lifetime service ($399) to eliminate all service fees, you can buy a new TivoHD for the equivalent of $150 direct from TiVo.com (http://www.tkqlhce.com/click-3136390-10404294?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww3.tivo.com%2Fpromo%2Fcustomerho liday%2Findex.html).



I cant seem to get the link at tivo.com to allow me to buy the "Holiday Special". Has anyone else gotten it to work? Is it just for existing customers?

I cant seem to get the link at tivo.com to allow me to buy the "Holiday Special". Has anyone else gotten it to work? Is it just for existing customers?
That link was in an email that was sent out to existing TiVo customers. The original link also included the service number of the customer that was emailed. I see now that the "Buy now" button is not present without that service number. I've sent you a pm with the full link that works.

The discount on service is only for existing customers.

The discount on service is only for existing customers.
That's not exactly true. You need a service number to get the "buy now" button on that page. Beyond that, however, it doesn't matter whether you are a new or existing customer.

In fact, the whole point of the link is to allow people to buy new, subscription-free boxes as gifts for others.

The fine print at the bottom of the page says that the MSD is only for existing customers. So the average user can't just go and buy this bundle for that price without help from a Tivo customer.
But you can look at it however you want, I guess.

† To be eligible for TiVo multi-service discount agreement, you must be an existing customer with a current paid subscription to the TiVo service (a "Qualifying Subscription") as further defined in TiVo's TiVo multi-service discount agreement. For full terms and conditions, please see TiVo's Multi-service Discount Agreement.

We just got a letter from our cable company warning of yet another price increase (just less than $3 a month...
DGK
My Charter cable is giving a general increase that is much more than $3, but none of it is due to the DVR total cost changes. However, that doesn't mean that money cannot be saved by switching to TiVo, which I am now actively considering, and also end up with a better DVR. For me, and I'd guess for some others, these are the issues:

1. Every time the cable company changes their plans, they increase the possibly of making a mistake, and decrease our understanding of how much we are actually being charged for a DVR. At Charter, their DVR rental is a sum of several charges...some of which may not be necessary. For example, several months ago, by carefully going over their price structure, I discovered I was being changed an extra $10, which on first questioning, Charter contented those charges were components of my DVR chargers. A week ago, I finally talked to a customer service representative that fully understood Charter's price structure, and my total DVR charges dropped from $30/month to $20/month. This representative said that the total DVR charges have been $20/month for some time; however, the components that go into that total have changed.

2. TiVo offers features that cable DVRs do not offer, and that can also save money. For example, with TiVo, Video on Demand is accomplished by downloading from the Internet. Amazon.com is one of those websites, and their Video on Demand cost less than Charter's. Netflix is about to become another, and for $9/month with Netflix, you not only get unlimited DVD rentals, but you can also download movies that include cable's Starz Channel movies. To get Starz at Charter, next year it will cost between $10 and $14, depending on how many other premium channels you subscribe to.


3. I have had Charter's Moxi DVR for several years now, and have been very happy with it. However, the Moxi is old, there is some question whether Charter will continue to support it. The most important Moxi feature to me is the ability to add an external hard-drive. That feature alone has given me more flexibility to watch what I want, when I want to, and do it without spending any time setting up and recording onto VCRs or DVDs. TiVo seems to be the only cable option with this feature.

At current TiVo prices and subscription rates, the TiVo HD would pay for itself compared to my Moxi Rental in about 2 years, and after that save more than $10/month, with features that are still better than the Moxi. Because of the TiVo HD XL model's large internal hard drive, I would prefer that model, which I've concluded is a reasonable price difference for the size of the hard drive, as well as the decreased probably of losing all recordings because of an external hard drive failure.

I haven't committed to this purchase yet, so I would appreciate any comments on my rational.

Don

I think there are many reasons to buy a TiVoHD for cable service -- such as superior usability, reliability, capacity expansion, streaming Netflix HD, remote scheduling, and the ability to download recordings to your computer -- but saving money is not really one of them.

No VOD, no firewire port, no... Oh wait, those are the reasons NOT to get a TiVo for your cable service.

I'd love to get TiVo, but usability has to take a back seat to functionality, and it lacks too much functionality at this point.

No VOD, no firewire port, no... Oh wait, those are the reasons NOT to get a TiVo for your cable service.

I'd love to get TiVo, but usability has to take a back seat to functionality, and it lacks too much functionality at this point.
The VOD being offered by cable is replaced with VOD via the Internet...and with many more options. I don't have any personal experience, but from the reviews I've read, the VOD offered by Amazon and Netflix is equal to the quality of a DVD, and is expected to soon become HD quality.

But more to the point, with a large external hard drive, I found myself never watching Charter VOD....I simply maintained recording of my favorite HD programs. I found this more reliable than VOD at watching what I want, when I want. If one wants to stay with cable (although I am not convinced I do), only the Moxi and Tivo offer a larger hard drive option.

Satellite TV is another option... the Dish Network, offers a larger hard drive option, but their DVRs are not connected to the internet, so their VOD is probably more limited. DirecTV DVRs are connected to the Internet, but the reviews of their DVR are not good.

djk,

Quality on Amazon Unbox is not particularly good; they are still using low-bitrate MPEG-2 for backward compatibility with old Series2 TiVos. Netflix's SD is all 480p VC-1, typically at 2.2Mbps, and is noticeably better than both Amazon Unbox and the SD VOD I got from Comcast.

If you are only interested in HD VOD, then the cable company box has the definite advantage there for now. Netflix has around 300 HD titles available via the TiVo, or closer to 500 if you count individual episodes as separate titles, and is adding around 20 new HD titles per week. However, that is still considerably less than you can access for free with Comcast and other cable companies. Even if Netflix does rapidly expand their streaming HD library, it's still limited to stereo audio for now (http://blog.netflix.com/2008/11/encoding-for-streaming.html).

You are right that a TiVo can act as your own personal HD VOD box, given sufficient capacity. My TivoHD has about 175 HD recordings on it. Using wishlists, the TiVo can automatically record new HD movies from various premium movie channels and sort them into folders of your choice. If you haven't used a standalone TiVo in the past year, then you probably haven't seen the greatly expanded wishlist functionality (DirecTiVos don't have it). Of course, you also have a folder for each of your favorite series.

As far as no Firewire port, that can hardly be called a disadvantage for TiVo, unless you require use of a D-VHS VCR. No DVR better integrates with PCs and Macs than a TiVo. The TivoHD is the only DVR I am aware of that lets you download HD recordings directly to any computer in your home over your wired or wireless network. It's also the only cable DVR I am aware of that lets you transfer and play VC-1, MPEG-4, and MPEG-2 HD recordings from your PC without transcoding; that said, it's still no substitute for some media servers, because it is very picky about the type of files (i.e. profiles) it will play without transcoding.

The TivoHD DVR allows you to automate the transfer of specific shows [using officially supported software] to your PC for automatic commercial removal, and automate their transfer back from PC to TiVo [using officially supported software] for viewing, commercial-free. There are both free and commercial applications to automate the commercial removal. If that's not great functionality, I don't know what is. Of course, TiVo makes commercials very easy to skip with a remote, too.

http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/tivodesktoptransfer.png

http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/tivo/tivodesktop26_video.png

If you use a Mac...and you are thinking about a TiVo, be sure to check out iTiVo for OSX (http://code.google.com/p/itivo/).

As far as no Firewire port, that can hardly be called a disadvantage for TiVo, unless you require use of a D-VHS VCR. No DVR better integrates with PCs and Macs than a TiVo. The TivoHD is the only DVR I am aware of that lets you download HD recordings directly to any computer in your home over your wired or wireless network. It's also the only cable DVR I am aware of that lets you transfer and play VC-1, MPEG-4, and MPEG-2 HD recordings from your PC without transcoding; that said, it's still no substitute for some media servers, because it is very picky about the type of files (i.e. profiles) it will play without transcoding.

Ugh, here we go again, we're going to get the Firewire zealots started :p. For the life of me I don't understand why some folks think the Tivo HD is worthless because they can't archive everything via Firewire, when as you say for MOST content it's very easy to transfer it to a PC and do whatever you want with it anyway.

bfdtv,
Thank you for that thoughtful response. I can be happy with lower quality VOD for now...the larger hard drive is the most important feature to me. With Netflix, if one doesn't like the VOD quality, you can always have DVDs mailed to you for the same cost....perhaps replacing cable subscriptions to HBO, Showtime, and Starz....except both HBO and Showtime have some series that I enjoy. TiVo does seem to be quickly improving, unlike cable, and already has a lot of other features that I know I'd enjoy, including ones you mentioned.

There is one other concern about TiVo: The cable companies plan to start using Switched Digital Video (SDV) sometime in the future, which could reduce the number of stations the TiVo could receive; however, I've read this (http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/technicalsupport/compatibilityhelp/Switched_Video_Cable_Details.html) TiVo support article, saying that the cable operator was responsible for providing a Tuning Adapter for the TiVo, but I cannot find any mention on the web that such a device has become operational. Given cable's past experience with cable cards, I'm not sure I want to trust cable to provide it. Do you have any experience, or thoughts as to whether this is a real issue or not?

Satellite TV is another option... the Dish Network, offers a larger hard drive option, but their DVRs are not connected to the internet, so their VOD is probably more limited. DirecTV DVRs are connected to the Internet, but the reviews of their DVR are not good.

Dish now offers some 1080p VOD, but not as much as cable or Netflix, iTunes, etc. However, the DVRs can be expanded through the use of USB hard disks.

I am seriously considering getting a TivoHD to go with my antenna, and be done with paying cable or satellite companies. Anything I want that doesn't come OTA, I can get from iTunes or elsewhere on the internet.

Ted

I have to ask anyone who is on HD tivo and comcast.
My friend has his HD tivo and comcast cable. He had to get 2 cable cards.
It prevents him from getting on demand and his HD picture is the pits.
Comcast blames it on cable cards and tivo.

Anyone else see this as well..

PS I am very sorry to thread cap I was going to post new topic but decided not.

My friend has his HD tivo and comcast cable. He had to get 2 cable cards.
It prevents him from getting on demand and his HD picture is the pits.
Comcast blames it on cable cards and tivo.


Interesting; I just replaced a Panasonic Plasma using cable card with a Pioneer Kuro that has no cable card slot. I loved the cable card as it sent the native output resolution of the station to the TV. With my #%$*& Comcast HD DVR I have to pick a default output, so I'm constantly switching between 1080i and 720p depending on how the station broadcasts. I'm considering moving to Tivo because I liked the cable card. Also, I've read the picture from the HD Tivo is as good as, if not better, than a cable box...

The VOD being offered by cable is replaced with VOD via the Internet...and with many more options. I don't have any personal experience, but from the reviews I've read, the VOD offered by Amazon and Netflix is equal to the quality of a DVD, and is expected to soon become HD quality.

I have HD quality VOD right now from Verizon.

Also, I was thinking of the VOD for kids shows and such. You lose that.

But more to the point, with a large external hard drive, I found myself never watching Charter VOD....I simply maintained recording of my favorite HD programs.

If you have a firewire port, you have infinite storage--D-VHS. I can take them quite easily from room to room should I want.

If you have a firewire port, you have infinite storage--D-VHS. I can take them quite easily from room to room should I want.
True, one can record and carry tapes from room to room, but I found it a lot easier and cheaper to let the electrons do the traveling from room to room: For me, it was worth the time to run wires between my DVR and all my TVs through a component A/V distribution amplifier (http://www.beachaudio.com/Ce-Labs/Av501hdx-p-116006.html), making portable recordings unnecessary.

But gosh ... when I discovered DVD recording, I said I'd never go back to tapes; when I discovered hard drive recording, I said I'd never go back to DVDs. Having an organized, single data base of recording that can be accessed by all TVs has made watching our recordings a lot simpler for both me and my wife.

TiVo's ability to transfer video to a computer, plus the addition of an external hard drive is close enough for me to infinite storage....and with my setup, I have immediate accessability.

Don

Oops!
Just when I was thinking TiVo was my the best alternative, two more alternatives appeared: A new commercial and cable supplied Moxi DVR, described here. (http://moxi.com/moxi/home.jsp)

Digeo is more than a year late at offering their new Moxi DVR, and rumor was that the commercial version had been canceled. However, it is now listed for sell both onAmazon (http://www.amazon.com/Digeo-Interactive-LLC-MR-1500T3-Moxi/dp/B001GQ8MT8/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1229115372&sr=8-7) and the Moxi website. Since I've thought of the old Moxi as being the best that cable offered, I may need wait for more information about the two new ones.

Uh yeah, for $800 with lifetime service included. A Tivo HD refurb upgraded with a 500GB drive + lifetime service would run you around $650. But comparing list prices, it's close to a wash between the two. However, there are a lot more USEFUL features on the Tivo, such as the Netflix streaming access that they just added. I also see no mention of the Moxi having multi-room viewing or PC video transfer support (I'm looking at their feature set page here (http://moxi.com/moxi/experience_features.jsp)). However it does have commercial skip, which is a huge plus if it works most of the time.

Not that the Moxi looks bad, it just doesn't appear to have as good of a feature set (right now). I'm very glad that Tivo finally has some real competition in this space, and I hope it keeps them on their toes.

The maturity of the TiVo does give it an advantage. With time, Moxi may eventually have features like Netflix streaming, but that would be the chance a buyer would have to make. Besides its external hard drive capability, another features I like about Moxi is its TV guide which has more information than TiVo, plus the Moxi guide does not have advertising, and is easy to use. The TiVo TV guide seems to be the same free one available on other products, like the no longer manufactured Sony DHG DVR, which I also own.
Notice that not only does the commercial Moxi not have an OTA tuner, it doesn't even have a cable analog tuner, although they will provide one to be attached to the USB port, if requested. So TiVo is still the only option for OTA customers. However, it good to finally see competition within the cable DVRs.

The bottom line for me is that the TiVo software is the most capable and reliable in the industry, by far. There is simply nothing else like it. The downside to TiVo, though, is that, compared to renting a cable company box, it is VERY expensive. This means that if you want the best you will have to pay for it but it is very good, indeed. That's why I held my nose and bought a TiVo S3 a couple of years ago, although my cost of ownership will end up being a lot higher than the cost of renting a cable company box. Still, I remember the quality of my TiVo, although I have forgotten the price.

Besides its external hard drive capability, another features I like about Moxi is its TV guide which has more information than TiVo, plus the Moxi guide does not have advertising, and is easy to use. The TiVo TV guide seems to be the same free one available on other products, like the no longer manufactured Sony DHG DVR, which I also own.Ehh? No.

There are two primary sources of guide information available -- Gemstar TVGuide (now owned by Macrovision) and Tribune Media.

Gemstar wrote the software on your Sony DHG DVR. TiVo does not get their information from TV Guide, nor do they use any TVGuide software. They do not have any advertising in their guide. TiVo buys their guide data from Tribune Media and delivers it to every box using their own Internet servers. Tribune is the same guide data provider used by DirecTV and Windows Media Center, and it is considered by many to be the most reliable and comprehensive source of guide data available anywhere. It is possible that Moxi uses the same information, but it is not possible for them to have better information, because that does not exist.

Tribune has a free online version of their guide at Zap2It.com (http://www.zap2it.com/). That's a subset of the guide information you get on every TiVo.

TiVo displays the TVGuide logo, but only because that is required as part of their license for Gemstar's guide interface patent. Gemstar owns the patent on a TV listings interface that every company must license before they can incorporate a program guide. Most providers now show the TVGuide logo in their software for that reason, regardless of where they get their program information.

Edit: TiVo does have some advertising on the main TiVo menu and program delete dialogs. Screenshots showing TiVo's advertising are below.

http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/tivo/spam/tivocentral_large.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/tivo/spam/delete_large.jpg

Ehh? No.

There are two primary sources of guide information available -- Gemstar TVGuide (now owned by Macrovision) and Tribune Media.

Gemstar wrote the software on your Sony DHG DVR. TiVo does not get their information from TV Guide, nor do they use any TVGuide software.

Tribune has a free online version of their guide at Zap2It.com (http://www.zap2it.com/). That's a subset of the guide information you get on every TiVo.

You are correct....the Moxi does use the same TV Guide at the zap2it website, which is different than my Sony DHG DVR and I know is from Gemstar. I am glad to find out the Moxi and TiVo guides are the same, since the guide is central to recording series without recording repeats, which my Moxi has been flawless at doing.

However, my Moxi does show more of the actors than the zp2it website...for example on Wed at 1am, The movie "Mystery Men" on AMC shows 10 more actors on the Moxi guide after the 4 shown on the zap2it site, ending with the names of the Producers, Robert Engleman, Lawrence. However, it could be that the zap2it site is not complete, but I remember a shorter TV Guide on an earlier TiVo I owned for about a week. Does TiVo show all 14 actors names plus the names of the producers for this movie?

Be aware that the Moxi available from your cable company is not the same thing as a standalone Moxi. As far as I know, the Moxi DVRs available from the likes of Charter use the guide data provided by the cable co, whereas the standalone Moxi will download guide information directly from the Internet, much like the TiVo. I don't know what guide data provider Moxi will use.

Unidirectional CableCard boxes like the standalone TivoHD and [new] Moxi do not have access to the program information offered by the cable company; that's why they must supply their own guide data.

However, my Moxi does show more of the actors than the zp2it website...for example on Wed at 1am, The movie "Mystery Men" on AMC shows 10 more actors on the Moxi guide after the 4 shown on the zap2it site, ending with the names of the Producers, Robert Engleman, Lawrence. However, it could be that the zap2it site is not complete, but I remember a shorter TV Guide on an earlier TiVo I owned for about a week. The Zap2It.com site only shows a subset of the information available from Tribune. It is their "free" site, after all.

Does TiVo show all 14 actors names plus the names of the producers for this movie?Yes and no.

Yes, the TiVo shows 15 actors, but they aren't shown on the main page for the show. They won't fit with the current font size. You have to click the INFO button to see the full list. Screenshots below:

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/9735/mysterymen1es0.jpg

And once you click the INFO button...

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/6503/mysterymen2vo8.jpg

Paging down...

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/3088/mysterymen3pw8.jpg

The Tribune Media guide on the TiVo DVRs is outstanding for national programming information but less so for local stuff. For example, Cox OKC's HD channel that carries Fox Sports programming caries all Fox Sports events that are in HD but remains off the air if the transmission is in SD. Tribune Media almost never correctly indicates when an HD game is on Cox OKC's Fox Sports channel, but Cox OKC's own guide gets it right almost every time.

Yes, the TiVo shows 15 actors, but they aren't shown on the main page for the show. They won't fit with the current font size. You have to click the INFO button to see the full list. Screenshots below:

Wow, Thanks! The TiVo does have more program information than my Moxi! The Moxi information is also not on the main page, but spread out over 4 small pages.


As far as I know, the Moxi DVRs available from the likes of Charter use the guide data provided by the cable co, whereas the standalone Moxi will download guide information directly from the Internet, much like the TiVo.

The guide for the current cable Moxi is supplied over the Internet via an internal modem...it is that internal modem that has caused the cable installers a lot of trouble because they were unaware that the modem had to also be activated; the new Moxi guides seem to also be supplied over the Internet, but via a home network. However, there must be some filtering of the Tribune data to fit onto Moxi's 4 small pages. Currently, the North Carolina HD PBS Moxi guide has been wrong for 4 months, the Moxi people have not been able to correct it, despite the fact it is identical to the SD PBS station, and my Sony Gemstar guide is correct for that station.

I can now see that I'd be much better off switching to TiVo, and not depending on either of the new Moxi's. Thanks for the information!

The bottom line for me is that the TiVo software is the most capable and reliable in the industry, by far. There is simply nothing else like it. The downside to TiVo, though, is that, compared to renting a cable company box, it is VERY expensive.
As I have mentioned on other threads, this is not necessarily true when you amortize the cost of a Tivo HD + service over 3 years compared to a cable HD DVR rental. The Tivo is slightly cheaper here in the ATL on Comcast. Is it more expensive upfront? Yes, but not over time. And the cable rental fee goes up all the time...

As I have mentioned on other threads, this is not necessarily true when you amortize the cost of a Tivo HD + service over 3 years compared to a cable HD DVR rental. The Tivo is slightly cheaper here in the ATL on Comcast. Is it more expensive upfront? Yes, but not over time. And the cable rental fee goes up all the time...
I've made the comparison many times and concluded that the TiVo is a lot more expensive. The equation may have changed a little, though, because when I bought my S3 the best price I could find was $680 but now you can get an HD for about $300. The problem, though, is that the TiVo subscription still has to be bought, either $12.95 per month for month to month, a one year plan for $129, a 3 year plan for $299, or a lifetime subscription for $400. You would still have to rent 2 CableCARDs from the cable company, which Cox OKC charges $4 per month for. If you just rent the cable company's DVR, though, the cost is only $5.25 a month, total. Thus, there is no getting around the stark fact that the bottom line cost of ownership for a TiVo HD is still dramatically higher than the price to rent a cable company owned box.

Don't get me wrong, I still bought an S3 and would do so again because there is simply no substitute for TiVo.

The TivoHD sold for $299 when it was first released in July, 2007. The TivoHD model now sells for $250 or less from retailers like Amazon. At the time of this posting, 6ave.com has the TivoHD for $208 shipped (http://www.6ave.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=TVOHD180) using coupon code AFLTVO208.

Assuming you buy the TivoHD, only one MCARD is required to support both tuners. MCARDs are now available from cable companies in most markets.

I've made the comparison many times and concluded that the TiVo is a lot more expensive. The equation may have changed a little, though, because when I bought my S3 the best price I could find was $680 but now you can get an HD for about $300. The problem, though, is that the TiVo subscription still has to be bought, either $12.95 per month for month to month, a one year plan for $129, a 3 year plan for $299, or a lifetime subscription for $400. You would still have to rent 2 CableCARDs from the cable company, which Cox OKC charges $4 per month for. If you just rent the cable company's DVR, though, the cost is only $5.25 a month, total. Thus, there is no getting around the stark fact that the bottom line cost of ownership for a TiVo HD is still dramatically higher than the price to rent a cable company owned box.

But that's just it - your math is way off based on your old data and more importantly, depending on where you are. A Tivo refurb + 3 years' service costs $13.31 a month. Comcast rents an HD DVR here for $13.95 a month, and they've been raising the rent the last couple of years. First cablecard for each outlet on Comcast is included in the outlet price (which you have to pay regardless of device), and you only need one card. You made a blanket statement, and it's not true in all areas (but widely believed).

Frankly, I don't see how you're able to rent a dual-tuner HD DVR for $5.25 a month, but I guess you just got a good deal on Cox. Are you sure that's not the SD DVR price?

But that's just it - your math is way off based on your old data and more importantly, [B]depending on where you are...

Frankly, I don't see how you're able to rent a dual-tuner HD DVR for $5.25 a month, but I guess you just got a good deal on Cox. Are you sure that's not the SD DVR price?
Only $5.25/month would certainly be a bargain to rent and operate a DVR at Charter cable. Charter charges $15/mo for a "DVR Service Fee" plus $5/mo to rent a "DVR Digital Receiver" for a total of $20/month. Yes, I could rent the DVR for $5, but it would not work without the Service Fee. At Charter's $20/month, TiVo is certainly priced to compete favorably with cable DVRs.

But that's just it - your math is way off based on your old data and more importantly, depending on where you are. A Tivo refurb + 3 years' service costs $13.31 a month. Comcast rents an HD DVR here for $13.95 a month, and they've been raising the rent the last couple of years. First cablecard for each outlet on Comcast is included in the outlet price (which you have to pay regardless of device), and you only need one card. You made a blanket statement, and it's not true in all areas (but widely believed).

Frankly, I don't see how you're able to rent a dual-tuner HD DVR for $5.25 a month, but I guess you just got a good deal on Cox. Are you sure that's not the SD DVR price?
Cox OKC rents its SA 8300HD for $5.25 a month, I checked my current bill before I posted this morning. But suppose the rental on the 8300HD was $10 or even $15, it would STILL be way cheaper than a TiVo. To buy a TiVo HD you first have to pay the price of the box, then get the TiVo subscription for $13.31 a month up to $400 for lifetime. On top of that you have to rent a card or cards for still more. Thus, while the cable company DVRs are dramatically inferior to the TiVo boxes their cost is also cheaper.

Only $5.25/month would certainly be a bargain to rent and operate a DVR at Charter cable. Charter charges $15/mo for a "DVR Service Fee" plus $5/mo to rent a "DVR Digital Receiver" for a total of $20/month. Yes, I could rent the DVR for $5, but it would not work without the Service Fee. At Charter's $20/month, TiVo is certainly priced to compete favorably with cable DVRs.
In addition to the $5.25 monthly charge I pay to rent the 8300HD itself, I also pay an $11.99 fee for “Digital Video Recorder” service. I assume that this charge would also apply if I used just my TiVo S3. Perhaps a Cox subscriber who has an S3 or HD but does not also rent another HD DVR from Cox can tell us whether they do or no not pay the “Digital Video Recorder” fee over and above their CableCARD rental. Even if you assume that the additional $11.99 per month would be saved if you had only a TiVo box, the total cost of having the TiVo will still be quite a bit higher that the Cox box because of the cost of the TiVo and its subscription.

Finally, let me say again, the TiVo is worth its premium price. Nevertheless it’s a good idea to understand that its price is a premium price.

In addition to the $5.25 monthly charge I pay to rent the 8300HD itself, I also pay an $11.99 fee for “Digital Video Recorder” service. I assume that this charge would also apply if I used just my TiVo S3. Perhaps a Cox subscriber who has an S3 or HD but does not also rent another HD DVR from Cox can tell us whether they do or no not pay the “Digital Video Recorder” fee over and above their CableCARD rental.They do not.

Most major cable companies are doing the same thing now. They split the cost of their DVR service across two separate fees so it looks like they are paying less. Customers find $11.99 for the "Digital Video Recorder" and $5.25 for the "HDTV STB" more acceptable than a single line item for $17.24. And there evidently some customers under the impression that they would pay one of those fees with their own DVR, when that is not the case.

Comcast and Cox customers with a TivoHD (and no cable company DVR) don't pay either of those two fees. On Comcast and Cox, the DVR fee is linked to an account setting that determines whether their own DVR will work; that setting has no relation to, and no affect on, the TiVo or CableCards.

Cox OKC rents its SA 8300HD for $5.25 a month, I checked my current bill before I posted this morning. But suppose the rental on the 8300HD was $10 or even $15, it would STILL be way cheaper than a TiVo. To buy a TiVo HD you first have to pay the price of the box, then get the TiVo subscription for $13.31 a month up to $400 for lifetime. On top of that you have to rent a card or cards for still more. Thus, while the cable company DVRs are dramatically inferior to the TiVo boxes their cost is also cheaper.Refurb TivoHD for $180 @ Tivo.com + $299 for three-year subscription = $479 = $13.31/mo for 36 months

The $13.31/mo rate referenced by the previous poster accounts for both the purchase price and the TiVo subscription cost over three years. If you want a new TivoHD instead of a refurb (see link above (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15311653&postcount=35)), it works out to $14.08/mo for 36 months.

You are paying $17.24 for your Cox DVR. Some in other areas are paying in excess of $22/mo when you add the HDTV STB and DVR service fees. For those folks, a TivoHD can pay for itself in less than two years, even after accounting for a modest MCARD fee (which Comcast digital customers don't pay).

Edit: Of course, there is always some inherent risk when you buy your own DVR. If you buy one, and it dies in a year or two, it doesn't get replaced for free by the cable company. TiVo will supply a refurbished replacement at a discount, and transfer the subscription, but then you've likely lost the potential for savings over the cable company DVR.

bfdtv -- Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, even at $17.24 per month, I am stuck with the Cox box as my backup DVR until and unless TiVo, or somebody, somehow figures out a way to enable the TiVo HD to receive PPV programming. I don't watch much PPV but when something comes up that I do want to watch, it's important to me. Thus, the Cox box remains. Oh well maybe the technology will catch up and I can jettison the 8300HD and its atrocious SARA software and replace it with a second TiVo.

Most major cable companies are doing the same thing now. They split the cost of their DVR service across two separate fees so it looks like they are paying less. Customers find $11.99 for the "Digital Video Recorder" and $5.25 for the "HDTV STB" more acceptable than a single line item for $17.24. And there evidently some customers under the impression that they would pay one of those fees with their own DVR, when that is not the case.
That is exactly right, but because of the confusion over fees, a customer could end up paying even more. Some of the Charter program packages include a "Standard Digital Receiver and Interactive Guide Services". Outside the package, these would be worth $5/month. However, if you chose to have a DVR rather than a SD receiver, you should either get credit for this $5, or also get a Standard Digital Receiver that is works and is able to receive VOD. Because the customer service people doesn't understand their own pricing structure, you may get neither, effectively increasing your Charter DVR rental to $25/mo.

It has literally taken me years of questioning and getting conflicting answers to understand Charter's fees. It seems only way to be sure is to cancel a service fee and see if your rented equipment still works.

I've held back on Tivos for two reasons: (1) I can't get to Charter's VOD through Tivo, and my young kids love the short kids programs available through Charter's on demand; and (2) I'm worried that SDV will make the thing obsolete, or more likely, much more expensive than anticipated. These points lead me to two questions:

1. What are the prospects for a tru2way Tivo in the reasonably near future, which I believe would solve the on demand issue.

2. How concerned should I be about the whole SDV thing with Charter in Atlanta, GA? I'm worried that Cable Cos will start overcharging for the SDV tuning adapters, thus making Tivo much more expensive than continuing to rent the cable DVR while we all wait for the next great invention.

bfdtv -- Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, even at $17.24 per month, I am stuck with the Cox box as my backup DVR until and unless TiVo, or somebody, somehow figures out a way to enable the TiVo HD to receive PPV programming. I don't watch much PPV but when something comes up that I do want to watch, it's important to me. Thus, the Cox box remains. Oh well maybe the technology will catch up and I can jettison the 8300HD and its atrocious SARA software and replace it with a second TiVo.
And thanks to you for acknowledging that you are wrong about the Tivo being much more expensive than renting a DVR. Believe me, I wouldn't have considered getting one here if I didn't come out better in the end.
Except for those cableCos that extort $4-6 Cablecard rental fees, I think you'll find that the Tivo is VERY competitive in price over 3 years or more. But as you know, it means no VOD/PPV, and you're on your own if the box croaks. Most of the time the fix is an easily replaced hard drive or power supply though.

I've held back on Tivos for two reasons: (1) I can't get to Charter's VOD through Tivo, and my young kids love the short kids programs available through Charter's on demand; and (2) I'm worried that SDV will make the thing obsolete, or more likely, much more expensive than anticipated. These points lead me to two questions:

1. What are the prospects for a tru2way Tivo in the reasonably near future, which I believe would solve the on demand issue.

2. How concerned should I be about the whole SDV thing with Charter in Atlanta, GA? I'm worried that Cable Cos will start overcharging for the SDV tuning adapters, thus making Tivo much more expensive than continuing to rent the cable DVR while we all wait for the next great invention.

1. Wait for CES since Tivo might announce something. The tru2way model has 2 modes. Tivo mode and Cable mode. Tivo mode accesses the Tivo features and SDV while Cable mode accesses VOD, and any tru2way service.

2. They offer a tuning resolver for free but the TA is more of an interim solution for the S3. The tru2way tivo aka Series 4 will have SDV support built into Tivo Mode.

And thanks to you for acknowledging that you are wrong about the Tivo being much more expensive than renting a DVR. Believe me, I wouldn't have considered getting one here if I didn't come out better in the end.
Except for those cableCos that extort $4-6 Cablecard rental fees, I think you'll find that the Tivo is VERY competitive in price over 3 years or more. But as you know, it means no VOD/PPV, and you're on your own if the box croaks. Most of the time the fix is an easily replaced hard drive or power supply though.
Cox OKC charges me about 5 bucks a month for 2 CableCARDs, although I have only one device. It’s a rip off but, as Tony Soprano put it, "Wadda you gonna do?”

1. Wait for CES since Tivo might announce something. The tru2way model has 2 modes. Tivo mode and Cable mode. Tivo mode accesses the Tivo features and SDV while Cable mode accesses VOD, and any tru2way service.

2. They offer a tuning resolver for free but the TA is more of an interim solution for the S3. The tru2way tivo aka Series 4 will have SDV support built into Tivo Mode.
As I recall, while the tuning resolver allows you to watch SDV channels on a TiVo, it still does not allow you to receive PPV programming. Tru2way should solve all of that, of course, but who knows when we will finally see it? When and if that happens, the Cox box goes and will be replaced by a second TiVo.

Despite my detestation of the execrable SARA software, the Cox box occasionally bails me out. Last night was one of those times. I was recording programs on both TiVo tuners at 8:00 pm, so it changed channels to one of them about 2/3 of the way thought the excellent Boston Celtics, Atlanta Hawks NBA game I had been watching. It was not a problem though because I was able to simply watch the end of the NBA game on the Cox DVR instead.

Actually Cox was looking at NDS or they might just go to Macrovision.

I'm on the fence between Tivo and the Moxi. The Moxi is the only cable box right now that has HDMI 1.3b. All other cable boxes only have HDMI 1.1, and don't pass 1080p and the new HD audio formats. The audio is what is important to me.
I know that no one yet broadcast in 1080p and HD audio, but when they start the Modi will handle it. This is good news for those who are getting into the new A/V processors and run their cable boxes to the A/V processor first and then onto the tv.

I'm on the fence between Tivo and the Moxi. The Moxi is the only cable box right now that has HDMI 1.3b. All other cable boxes only have HDMI 1.1, and don't pass 1080p and the new HD audio formats. The audio is what is important to me.
I know that no one yet broadcast in 1080p and HD audio, but when they start the Modi will handle it. This is good news for those who are getting into the new A/V processors and run their cable boxes to the A/V processor first and then onto the tv.
As far as I can tell, the Moxi cannot provide 1080p60 output, nor can it handle 1080p60 channels. The Moxi supports 1080p24 and 1080p30 content and output, according to their specifications. The DVR CPU in the TivoHD can also support 1080p24, although I'm not sure about the latter.

No 1080p24 or 1080p30 bitstreams exists on cable now, and when it is made available in the next few years, it is likely to come in the form of cable VOD, which the current Moxi and Tivo designs cannot support. We are unlikely to see actual 1080p bitstream channels from cable providers in the next two years, and when it does come, chances are it will be delivered by most providers using SDV (with VC-1 / MPEG-4), which the Moxi doesn't support.

HDMI 1.3 doesn't mean anything for cable, beyond auto lipsync control with HDMI 1.3 A/V receivers. The primary beneficiary of HDMI 1.3 are (1) future gaming devices and games that take advantage of xvYCC and/or Deep Color, and (2) Blu-ray players which can output lossless DTS-HD MA and TrueHD audio tracks to HDMI 1/3 AV receivers for decoding. You are unlikely to see either of those technologies used with broadcast and cable TV in your lifetime.

I received a TivoHD for Christmas! Now, of course, I need to get a cablecard from Comcast so that all the channels work on it. I've heard I want the m-card as opposed to two c-cards. I my area (according to Comcast.net) I need to make an appointment with a technician to install the card. Can anyone suggest how to make sure they install and m-card?

I received a TivoHD for Christmas! Now, of course, I need to get a cablecard from Comcast so that all the channels work on it. I've heard I want the m-card as opposed to two c-cards. I my area (according to Comcast.net) I need to make an appointment with a technician to install the card. Can anyone suggest how to make sure they install and m-card?
It's very simple. The only way both tuners on your TiVo will be authorized with only one card is if that card is an M card. If the cable company tech brings S cards instead of an M card, two of them will be required, one for each of the TiVo's two tuners.

I have to ask anyone who is on HD tivo and comcast.
My friend has his HD tivo and comcast cable. He had to get 2 cable cards.
It prevents him from getting on demand and his HD picture is the pits.
Comcast blames it on cable cards and tivo.

Anyone else see this as well..

PS I am very sorry to thread cap I was going to post new topic but decided not.

I have been running a a single cable card of the multi variety for about a year. Comcast in Houston is changing technology and they say I need to go to one of their stores before Jan 20 2009 and swap my cable card out for a new one.

That is exactly right, but because of the confusion over fees, a customer could end up paying even more. Some of the Charter program packages include a "Standard Digital Receiver and Interactive Guide Services". Outside the package, these would be worth $5/month. However, if you chose to have a DVR rather than a SD receiver, you should either get credit for this $5, or also get a Standard Digital Receiver that is works and is able to receive VOD. Because the customer service people doesn't understand their own pricing structure, you may get neither, effectively increasing your Charter DVR rental to $25/mo.

It has literally taken me years of questioning and getting conflicting answers to understand Charter's fees. It seems only way to be sure is to cancel a service fee and see if your rented equipment still works.

Are Charter's fees the same regardless of state/location? If so, I have 3416 DCH dvr and internet access (currently running at 10 mbs, but as far as I know I only signed up for 5 mbs). My question then, if you could, is what should this cost me per month. Breaking it down would be even nicer.

Are Charter's fees the same regardless of state/location? If so, I have 3416 DCH dvr and internet access (currently running at 10 mbs, but as far as I know I only signed up for 5 mbs). My question then, if you could, is what should this cost me per month. Breaking it down would be even nicer.

I was told by a charter customer service rep (take that for what it worth) a month ago that the total monthly fee for their DVRs was $20/mo all over the country, but it was broken down differently in various areas. As I understand it, there is a fee to rent the equipment ($5 for me), plus a DVR Service Fee to provide the program guide and interactive service to make it work ($15 for me). This is similar in structure to any of Charter's cable boxes....for example a SD receiver "rents" for $2, plus the Interactive Service fee of $3, for a total of $5. High speed internet cost me $45/mo, which is the 5 Mbs speed, but this fee is only tied to other cable fees in that I get a small discount for using other Charter services.

However, different reps have tried to charge me more for my Moxi DVR....some saying that my DVR was an $5 "upgrade" to an HD receiver, and other reps ignored the fact I had a package that included a SD receiver and Interactive service fee that I was not using. So for a while I was actually paying $30/mo for my DVR. Part of this confusion within Charter is because the Moxi and the Motorola DVRs are fundamentally different: The current Moxi has it's own built-in cable modem and gets it's program guide from the same source as TiVo, while the Motorola DVRs (including the 3416) uses the same guide as the SD and HD receivers, that have a service fee of only $3/mo.

Several years ago, I had another rep tell me that they should break down the fees for the Motorola DVRs different than the Moxi, and the total cost of the Motorola might be cheaper, except they wanted to keep the same price structure for both DVRs. That could change. The only way to be sure of what you are paying is to get a detail price structure from Charter, and carefully go over your bill to understand their charges and be sure you have not been over-charged.

Yesterday, I ordered a TiVo HD XL from Amazon.com to replace my Moxi. After reading about the features of TiVo, and at the same time watching the TiVo price to continue to drop daily on Amazon.com, I concluded it was time to make the change....giving up a Moxi DVR that at one time was better and less expensive than TiVo....but that no longer seems to be the case. Change happens.

Thanks guys for the TiVo information.

Don

djk1940, thanks for taking the time to reply

I'm looking at my Comcast Houston bill of $192.88/month which includes $45.95 for high speed Internet and $19.56 taxes. I have two HD-DVR SA-8300HD stb's which cost $8.99 + $3.99 + $7.49 per month ($20.47) plus another $12.95 for DVR service, so my total for 2 DVR boxes is $33.42 each month plus taxes. I get 3 premium services for $27, a sports pkg for $7.95 and preferred Digital pkg for another $59.

I was thinking about a Tivo or 2 (the wife likes to record her shows and watch on her TV) so I'm wondering if I would save money by stopping renting Comcast's STB's and getting 2 Tivo-HD's.

It has been nearly 3 months since I decided to purchase a TiVo XL, and return my Moxi cable DVR to Charter cable. I was so pleased with the performance of TiVo over the cable DVR, the next month I purchased a 2nd TiVo that my wife now uses...she no longer depends on me to record her favorite programs. I now wonder why I didn't make the switch sooner.

I've not missed a single Moxi feature, and gained many new features, plus having both a his and hers TiVo DVR with access to more recent movies on DVDs plus an excellent selection of VOD, both through Netflix .... and all without any increase in my total monthly costs. In fact, my monthly costs are about to go down as I cancel my two remaining premium movie channels, which would end up saving enough to pay for the purchase of both the TiVo XL and HD in a little over 2 years.

Thanks again for to all of you who answered my initial skepticism.

Don

It has been nearly 3 months since I decided to purchase a TiVo XL, and return my Moxi cable DVR to Charter cable. I was so pleased with the performance of TiVo over the cable DVR, the next month I purchased a 2nd TiVo that my wife now uses...she no longer depends on me to record her favorite programs. I now wonder why I didn't make the switch sooner.
Yes, there is nothing like a TiVo is there? I still rent one of the horrible SA 8300HD DVRs, with its even more horrible SARA software, from Cox OKC. I use the rental box as a backup to record a third program at times both of my S3's tuners are recording other programs. On occasion I also use the Cox box to rent PPV programs, primarily sports stuff. Compared to a TiVo the 8300 truly stinks. The only reason I don't replace it with a second TiVo is that I don't need a second DVR frequently enough to justify the out of pocket expense of another TiVo.

Yes, there is nothing like a TiVo is there? I still rent one of the horrible SA 8300HD DVRs, with its even more horrible SARA software, from Cox OKC. I use the rental box as a backup to record a third program at times both of my S3's tuners are recording other programs. On occasion I also use the Cox box to rent PPV programs, primarily sports stuff. Compared to a TiVo the 8300 truly stinks. The only reason I don't replace it with a second TiVo is that I don't need a second DVR frequently enough to justify the out of pocket expense of another TiVo.
I also thought it is a good idea to have a backup, but decided a 2nd TiVo made for a better backup since you can transfer recordings between the two. However, there is the disadvantage that if there were some failure in the TiVo program guide, it could affect both TiVos. But in my case, I also own a Sony DHG DVR which uses a different, free TV guide; however, I have just about stopped using it because of the power of the two TiVos. Another advantage of two TiVos is having one remote that controls both TiVos...my wife loves that...not having to learn to use more than one remote.

But from a price standpoint, you should actually save money after a few years to buy a 2nd TiVo as your backup, rather than rent the cable DVR. If your only programing advantage of the 8300 DRV is PPV sports programs, you might be able to get by with an HD, non-DVR cable box. At Charter, those rent for $5/month, vs $20/month for a DVR, so if Cox were the same, you could still come out ahead by buying a 2nd TiVo. But as for movies, and certain TV series, I couldn't be more pleased with my subscription to Netflix as a replacement for VOD and the premium movie channels. We've started watching the TV series "Heroes" via TiVo/Netflix VOD, beginning with season 1...all 3 seasons are available for instant watching, up to within a week of the current episode, and in HD with an Internet connection of 3 mbps or greater. So far, Netflix VOD has worked much better for me than my cable VOD did.

I also thought it is a good idea to have a backup, but decided a 2nd TiVo made for a better backup since you can transfer recordings between the two. However, there is the disadvantage that if there were some failure in the TiVo program guide, it could affect both TiVos. But in my case, I also own a Sony DHG DVR which uses a different, free TV guide; however, I have just about stopped using it because of the power of the two TiVos. Another advantage of two TiVos is having one remote that controls both TiVos...my wife loves that...not having to learn to use more than one remote.

But from a price standpoint, you should actually save money after a few years to buy a 2nd TiVo as your backup, rather than rent the cable DVR. If your only programing advantage of the 8300 DRV is PPV sports programs, you might be able to get by with an HD, non-DVR cable box. At Charter, those rent for $5/month, vs $20/month for a DVR, so if Cox were the same, you could still come out ahead by buying a 2nd TiVo. But as for movies, and certain TV series, I couldn't be more pleased with my subscription to Netflix as a replacement for VOD and the premium movie channels. We've started watching the TV series "Heroes" via TiVo/Netflix VOD, beginning with season 1...all 3 seasons are available for instant watching, up to within a week of the current episode, and in HD with an Internet connection of 3 mbps or greater. So far, Netflix VOD has worked much better for me than my cable VOD did.
Thanks for your thoughtful response to my post. I agree that getting a TiVo HD to replace the box I rent from Cox might end up being cheaper than my rental DVR if I kept a second TiVo long enough. I hesitate to buy another one now, though, because I know I will want one of the new TiVos with TrueHD and other whistles and bells when it becomes available. When that happens, I will buy one of the new TiVos and happily dump my rental DVR.

About the only VOD offerings I ever buy on the Cox box are sports, which aren't available otherwise. Also, about the only real advantage the Cox DVR has over the S3 is its program guide, which is often more current than TiVo's Tribune Media Services guide.

My elderly parents made the HD transition two years ago and signed up for the Motorola (?) HD DVR supplied by Cox. They immediately complained that the Moto user interface was horrible compared to their SD Tivo, but they lived with it for several months. I finally caved in and bought them a new HD Tivo from Weaknees. Sadly, they are plagued with blocking/tiling on local HD channels and neither Cox nor Weaknees will accept responsibility for the problem. CBS HD on channel 612 is the worst - virtually unwatchable. Has anyone else had this issue?

SD channels appear to be okay, as are the non-local HD (like ESPN and DISC). Sounds like a signal problem to me, but Cox has been out twice to test it and claims the signal is fine. They also replaced the cable cards. The Moto DVR never had a problem, and there's no problem watching live TV with Tivo bypassed. Anything else we should look at?

SD channels appear to be okay, as are the non-local HD (like ESPN and DISC). Sounds like a signal problem to me, but Cox has been out twice to test it and claims the signal is fine. They also replaced the cable cards. The Moto DVR never had a problem, and there's no problem watching live TV with Tivo bypassed. Anything else we should look at?It's most likely a signal issue or a defective/failed hard drive.

To check for a signal issue, tune to a channel where you see the problem. Then open Messages & Settings -> System Information -> DVR Diagnostics. Under the channel with the issue, do you see RS Uncorrected errors? RS Uncorrected errors is what the TiVo uses to identify signal errors that cause pixelization and audio dropouts. If you see RS Uncorrected errors, what does your signal level say? The signal will be too strong or or too weak.

(Note changing the channel will reset the RS Uncorrected error counts.)

If I were to guess, I would say your signal is too strong. The TiVo's tuner is more sensitive than the Motorola DVR and it can be "overpowered" by signals that do not cause any problems for the Motorola. A -6dB attenuator (Cox installers should have these, or you can order one online) would likely eliminate this problem.

If you do not see any RS Uncorrected errors on a channel with pixelization, then that strongly suggests the hard drive is bad. You can download a restore CD (http://www.dvrupgrade.com/dvr/stores/1/tivo-software.cfm) from DVRUpgrade that will restore the TiVo software to a new drive of your choice (up to 1.1TB). Restoring the software to a new drive will probably require Cox to reactivate the CableCards, since the CableCard pairing information is stored on the original drive.

Thanks for the tip, but the menus on both my Series 2 and the Series 3 in question do not follow the progression you stated. Therefore I am unable to check for the errors you named.

Your other comment about signal strength was interesting. Earlier in the day I had spoken to a Tivo CSR who suggested I might need a line amplifier - not an attenuator as you suggested. I was unable to get any signal strength data on the Cox cable unit, but I will try again tomorrow.

Thanks for the tip, but the menus on both my Series 2 and the Series 3 in question do not follow the progression you stated. Therefore I am unable to check for the errors you named.Are you sure? I would double-check the Series3 again.

TiVo button -> Messages & Settings -> Account and System Information -> DVR Diagnostics.

The TiVo Series2 doesn't have this menu, because it only records only analog channels, or the output from a cable box. The TiVo Series2 records whatever picture is output by the cable box. If the output from the cable box has pixelization, then that is what the TiVo Series2 will record.

Keep in mind that most cable companies now supply a digital version of the analog channels to their own cable boxes (and CableCard devices) -- they refer to this as digital simulcast -- so when you tune channels 2-99 with your TV, you probably aren't tuning the same channels as the TiVo or cable box.

It's not easy doing diagnostics with an 85 yr old man from 700 miles away, but we finally got the info. With the tuner set to the worst channel, the signal strength was bouncing all over -- ranging from 54 to 85. The Tivo CSR told me yesterday I should expect 100% but need 80 minimum. So it looks like that is where the problem lies. I cannot understand why the Cox techs have repeatedly said the signal is perfect...

Thank you, bfdtv, for your assistance!!

It's not easy doing diagnostics with an 85 yr old man from 700 miles away, but we finally got the info. With the tuner set to the worst channel, the signal strength was bouncing all over -- ranging from 54 to 85. The Tivo CSR told me yesterday I should expect 100% but need 80 minimum. So it looks like that is where the problem lies. I cannot understand why the Cox techs have repeatedly said the signal is perfect...
I suspect the signal may be too strong for the TiVo.

It may seem counterintuitive, but the a wide variation in reported signal is usually indicative of this. When the TiVo has a strong signal, it will display in the 95-100 range with typically no more than +/- 1 variation in signal strength. When the signal is too strong for TiVo, you'll see wide variations such as 50-90 or 40-85 or 60-100, accompanied by pixelization.

If the Cox signal was too weak for the TiVo, it would remain in the 55-60 range with very little variation.

This also makes more sense based on what was said by the Cox installer. The TiVo DVRs are more sensitive than the Cox DVRs, so they can be more easily overpowered. A signal in the upper signal range for the Motorola DVRs might be deemed just fine by the Cox installer [for the Motorola DVR], but still be "too hot" (strong) for the TiVo. I also think it unlikely that a Cox installer would report a weak signal as "good."

I would order one of these (http://www.smarthome.com/7802/Signal-Strength-Attenuator-Pads-6-dB/p.aspx) and one of these (http://www.smarthome.com/7801/Signal-Strength-Attenuator-Pads-3-dB/p.aspx) for your parents. It just screws onto the end of the cable. I would have your parents try the -6dB attenuator first.

I agree, 3db is really very little attenuation. For testing I like to use a 12db or even 15db attenuator.
If they have a splitter handy they would also work for testing. A 2 way splitter will roughly attenuate 3db while a 4 way will be ~-12db to each port. Just leave the unused taps empty when doing your testing. Using a splitter for a attenuator will require a coupler or short length of MM coax.

I'm reading the service plans on Tivo's website.

I notice if you signup for a 3 year service plan they will extend the original 1 year parts warranty to three years, but see nothing about extending the warranty if you purchase a lifetime service plan.

Also a question about the lifetime service plan. Has anyone ever been able to transfer it to a new unit if the original DVR is out of warranty and breaks?

I notice if you signup for a 3 year service plan they will extend the original 1 year parts warranty to three years, but see nothing about extending the warranty if you purchase a lifetime service plan.I'm fairly certain you don't get an extended warranty with lifetime.

Also a question about the lifetime service plan. Has anyone ever been able to transfer it to a new unit if the original DVR is out of warranty and breaks?TiVo allows you to transfer lifetime from a failed DVR to a replacement of the same model, purchased direct. They offer refurbished TivoHDs at a discount ($149) for those that are out-of-warranty. There's no extra charge to transfer lifetime.

Since almost all TiVo failures are the result of failing hard drives, it is cheaper to buy a new drive rather than paying for a replacement DVR. As noted elsewhere, lifetime is tied to a ROM chip on the TiVo, so it is not affected by drive replacements.

I'm reading the service plans on Tivo's website.

I notice if you signup for a 3 year service plan they will extend the original 1 year parts warranty to three years, but see nothing about extending the warranty if you purchase a lifetime service plan.


I was not told about any extended warranty when I signed up for my lifetime but I noticed you said "parts" but maybe not labor was extended to 3 years? While parts are better than nothing if it's just the drive that fails I would guess you could buy a bigger drive and install it yourself for about what Tivo would charge you for labor to replace the same 160GB in your Tivo.
That is kind of a nice + though with the 3 year sub.

bfdtv,
I know from reading the Moxi cable DVR forum that it was impossible to transfer any recorded video on the Moxi to another hard drive. But of course with TiVo, one can always transfer a recording to a computer hard drive, or another TiVo on your network; I assume that it is the "Media Access Key" that limits playing a recorded program to the computer it was transferred to. If that were all that were possible, then one could have limited backup...limited by the size capacity of the 2nd TiVo, or computer hard drive. However, I'd assume that by having only one TiVo at the time of a TiVo failure, any recording on a computer could not be transferred back to the TiVo that replaced the failed one.... is that true?

But it seems to me that I now have full TiVo hard drive backup capability with two TiVos: I can now copy a recorded program to my computer, transfer it to a external hard drive attached to my computer, then transfer it to my 2nd TiVo, and play it there. Therefore, by keeping a copy of all my recorded programs on a large external hard drive attached to my computer, should either TiVo hard drive fail, I would still be able to transfer the recordings to the other TiVo until I have replaced the failed TiVo. I have tried all the steps with a small flash drive, and they seem to work. Have I missed something? If not, this gives TiVo an even bigger advantage over cable DVRs.
Don

I had not seen your most recent post before I called Weaknees again today. They agreed to send a replacement, so we'll soon find out whether it's a defective Tivo...

I do appreciate your suggestions, but there's no way my elderly father could attempt the testing you recommended, but he can switch units. I will post again after we complete the swap.

S e a r s B&M stores have the Tivo HD for a penny under 2 Benjamins. That's the same as a refurbed unit from Tivo. Call around though as they sell out quickly.

S e a r s B&M stores have the Tivo HD for a penny under 2 Benjamins. That's the same as a refurbed unit from Tivo. Call around though as they sell out quickly.If he has an active TiVo subscription, out-of-warrantee replacements from TiVo are $149.

I do appreciate your suggestions, but there's no way my elderly father could attempt the testing you recommended, but he can switch units. I will post again after we complete the swap.I would still order a -6dB attenuator, just in case. It's going to take a week to arrive from the day you order it. It's worth having as "insurance" in case the replacement drive doesn't fix the problem. I'm guessing you only want to deal with this problem once.

I've been a user of TVGOS with a couple firewire recorders attached to my HDTV set until I got fed up with the lack of guide info lately.

I just started using a Tivo HD and have a question that I can't find an answer to in you FAQ's.

BTW - Very nice job on your thread. It's definitely a go to.

I have no series recordings or season pass setup yet and want to know if there's a way to change the default record "Keep until" to "Until I Delete".

Like I said, I'm no Tivo PowerUser yet and this would help me get used to it until I have more time to play with the series and season pass options.

I plan to upgrade the internal hard drive sometime this year, but for now, it's one step at a time, as time allows...

I have no series recordings or season pass setup yet and want to know if there's a way to change the default record "Keep until" to "Until I Delete". There's no way to change the default to "keep until I delete." Note the use of "keep until I delete" on a series recording is generally inadvisable with a stock TivoHD without expansion, because it causes other programs to be deleted much faster. [See FAQ for reasons.]

As a new TiVo user, the only things I would concern yourself with are: (a) create each season pass on the right channel -- season passes only record from the channels they are created on, and (b) when you create a season pass, select options and set it to first-run (new episodes) only. You can double-check the settings for each season pass under Find Programs -> Season Pass Manager -- as a shortcut, press '1' from the TiVo menu.

There's no way to change the default to "keep until I delete."Thanks, that was the answer I was looking for.

I already researched all the rest of your reply and knew that. Like I said, I'm in Tivo-101 and am not setting up any series or season pass yet.

B.T.W. Don't take this personally, but I always RTFM and learn best by hands-on, taking time to explore, referring to the manual, your FAQ's and TIPS and will get there in my own time. I appreciate your thorough response, but I'm just not looking for a crash course:)

You can double-check the settings for each season pass under Find Programs -> Season Pass Manager -- as a shortcut, press '1' from the TiVo menu.I find this FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11126048&postcount=5) invaluable, as I already have a shortcut programmed for "2 = To Do List"

87. What are some other remote or menu shortcuts?

From Recorded List (press the "TiVo" button twice):

CLEAR = single-click delete of a selected program on recorded list
SKIP = jumps to end / beginning of recorded list and other menus
1 = toggles between alphabetical sort and recorded date sort
2 = toggles folders/groups on and off

From TiVo Central (press the "TiVo" button once):

0 = Show the TiVo startup video
1 = Season Pass Manager
2 = To Do List
3 = Search Using Wishlists
4 = Search by Title
5 = Browse by Channel
6 = Browse by Time
7 = Set Up Manual Recording
8 = TiVo's Suggestions
9 = Showcases

Since this is a Tivo HD, has it been suggested (to Tivo) to take advantage of widescreen 16:9 HDTV screen real estate by expanding the GUIDE? If so, where do I go to add my vote? BUMP, ++1, etc. So far, that is one of two things I liked better in Gemstar's TVGOS.

Edit: Found link on TiVo for feedback and provided it.

The Tivo UI is old and tired and does not take advantage of HD, so you found the right approach - complain.

BTW you can change the guide to a grid format, which some people like (myself included). It takes better advantage of the screen size IMO. Press ENTER when you're in the guide to switch.

I'm thinking of getting an HD Tivo and has a question about the cablecards. Is there a benefit to getting a single Mcard vs 2 Scards? I called Comcast in my SF area and they said the Scards are free, but they charge $1.70/mo for the Mcard. So if I can get 2 free Scards and there is no downside in functionality that would clearly be the cheaper option.

jcg

It's very simple. The only way both tuners on your TiVo will be authorized with only one card is if that card is an M card. If the cable company tech brings S cards instead of an M card, two of them will be required, one for each of the TiVo's two tuners.

I'm thinking of getting an HD Tivo and has a question about the cablecards. Is there a benefit to getting a single Mcard vs 2 Scards? I called Comcast in my SF area and they said the Scards are few, but they charge $1.70/mo for the Mcard. So if I can get 2 free Scards and there is no downside in functionality that would clearly be the cheaper option.
If two S-CARDs are cheaper, then by all means, go that route. There's no downside once they are activated. Just make sure you can tune two digital cable channels at the same time before the installer leaves.

Some people with 2x S-CARD installations make the mistake of allowing the installer to leave before they check both tuners, and then they find that the installer failed to correctly activate the second card (tuner). The use of a M-CARD obviously avoids the scenario where one card is activated and the other is not.

For those experienced with this unit..I am strictly OTA. I want to make sure I can retrieve my recordings and copy them if I can (unlike the hdd-250). Is it worth the hassel if I am OTA? Thanks for your input!

Rick

Yes, you can download OTA recordings to your computer from the TiVo. For OTA, the TiVo is superior to the Sony in almost every way.

Downloading recordings from TiVo to computer (screenshots) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=879469#A4)

For those experienced with this unit..I am strictly OTA. I want to make sure I can retrieve my recordings and copy them if I can (unlike the hdd-250). Is it worth the hassel if I am OTA? Thanks for your input!

Rick

There is no hassel if you are strictly OTA. No cable cards are required. Just plug in your antenna and run guided setup.

Thanks bfdtv, moxie1617, and fellow posters out there. I saw a couple of these at Sears...is the $199 price a lower price or perhaps clearance?

Being OTA, I heard somewhere that I would not get the full functionality that the TIVO offers...don't exactly recall what functionality but the one I remember was timed recordings...any insight? thanks again,

Rick

I saw a couple of these at Sears...is the $199 price a lower price or perhaps clearance?

Being OTA, I heard somewhere that I would not get the full functionality that the TIVO offers...don't exactly recall what functionality but the one I remember was timed recordings...any insight?The $200 price tag is a good price, wish I had gotten it. I am strictly OTA with a TiVo HD. You get all the DVR features with OTA that you would get with cable, there is no difference. Everyone likes to stress the comprehensive DVR features, ease of use and reliability -- I guess because that is what most people are looking for, at least initiallly when they are deciding to make the purchase. Just keep in mind, the DVR function is about half of what this box can do. Get it networked, get it linked with your PC and get a basic NetFlix subscription and your new TiVo quickly becomes a media center. I've had it for 2 months since 2/1 and I don't think I could ever be satisfied with anything less anymore.

Being OTA, I heard somewhere that I would not get the full functionality that the TIVO offers...don't exactly recall what functionality but the one I remember was timed recordings...any insight? thanks again,What you're thinking of only applies to basic cable. The TiVo doesn't have guide information for "Clear QAM" channels (such as HD locals) on basic cable, and thus you're forced to either (a) create timers on those channels, or (b) get a CableCard. Sony offers the ability to remap QAM cable channels so they have guide information, without the need for a CableCard, and that is its main advantage over the TivoHD.

The TivoHD provides full functionality and 14 days of program information on every OTA channel.

Is there any way to make the TiVo-HD not buffer Live TV (uses the hard drive) and instead just use it as a tuner when one doesn't want/need the buffering?

I would prefer to be able to toggle this behavior off when not needed.

Is there any way to make the TiVo-HD not buffer Live TV (uses the hard drive) and instead just use it as a tuner when one doesn't want/need the buffering?

I would prefer to be able to toggle this behavior off when not needed.No. This is fairly standard among modern DVRs.

One thing that does distinguish the TiVo from some other DVRs is the dual buffer. The TiVo buffers both tuners (as opposed to just the current one) and remembers your place when you pause. Lots of people use this during the football season to watch two events at the "same time."

You can press record on a liveTV program to save the buffer to that recording...but of course you know that, having read the FAQ. :)

You can press record on a liveTV program to save the buffer to that recording...but of course you know that, having read the FAQ. :)Yeah, tried that today about 11 mins into a show just to see what would happen. Even though I did a rewind to the beginning of the show (at 8pm) before I pressed the record button, it still recorded the whole buffer plus the show (7:41pm - 9pm). This is probably a good thing for many people. I just like to have a bit more control over my electronics and will usually smack myself upside the head when I do something stupid.

Yeah, tried that today about 11 mins into a show just to see what would happen. Even though I did a rewind to the beginning of the show (at 8pm) before I pressed the record button, it still recorded the whole buffer plus the show (7:41pm - 9pm). This is probably a good thing for many people. I just like to have a bit more control over my electronics and will usually smack myself upside the head when I do something stupid.You don't need to rewind to the beginning of the show to press record and have it save the buffer. You can press record from the current liveTV point and it will save the available buffer for that program.

It is rather unusual to have 19 minutes added before the start of the program. Usually, you should see only a few minutes added to the start of the program. The TiVo buffers in segments, and saves the buffer segment that contains the start of the program. For more highly compressed (i.e. lower bitrate) HD channels, the buffer segments do tend to be longer.

You don't need to rewind to the beginning of the show to press record and have it save the buffer. You can press record from the current liveTV point and it will save the available buffer for that program.

It is rather unusual to have 19 minutes added before the start of the program. Usually, you should see only a few minutes added to the start of the program. The TiVo buffers in segments, and saves the buffer segment that contains the start of the program. For more highly compressed (i.e. lower bitrate) HD channels, the buffer segments do tend to be longer.I'll have to play with this one a bit more. I had tuned to the channel in question about an hour before (around 7:10?), was watching live TV and was caught up with live TV as I hadn't done any trick-play with it (and I know it buffers up to 1/2hr) and about 8:11pm I decided to see if I could somehow force it to start recording at the beginning of the show I was watching (which was 8pm), so I trick-played live TV by doing a rewind to 7:59pm, hit play and waited until the commercials were over about 8:02pm and hit the record button and went back to check the recording a little after 9pm when the show was over.

Just an FYI on the Tivo HD at Sears...A buddy that works there told me that the pricing has been reduced to $137.xx but couldn't tell me when it would take effect.

I also just bought the Tivo Wireless G USB Wireless adapter @ Radio Shack for 19.xx inc. tax...I believe it is on clearance.