Title says it all. I've got an NAD THX 125 wpc amp and I have the two fronts bi-wired. Would it help if I bi-wired the center channel as well? I have Paradigm Reference v.1 Speakers.....thanks in advance,

Title says it all. I've got an NAD THX 125 wpc amp and I have the two fronts bi-wired. Would it help if I bi-wired the center channel as well? I have Paradigm Reference v.1 Speakers.....thanks in advance,Well, do you really 'think' that biwiring has 'helped' your front speakers? If so, then it will probably 'help' your center channel speaker.

You are talking about biwiring and not biamping, correct? (Same answer either way, actually.)

The electrical circuit is EXACTLY the same whether you run a full range speaker wire to one set of terminals and connect a jumper to the second, or bi-wire by splitting the full range wire into four connections. The amp sees the circuit as exactly the same. So it will make absolutely no difference except to those that say they can magically hear a difference between the identical circuits. In which case, you should do what sounds best.

Even shotgun bi-wiring where you run two full range speaker wires from the amp to the speaker is essentially the exact same circuit to the amp. All you are doing by adding the extra full range wire is doubling the amount of copper effectively reducing the AWG of the run. Well, that and of course spending more $$$ for nothing. :p

I Bi-Wired My setup using QED cable And it better in low end & high end it has separated the sound a bit, That my setup That I can hear a differents on my AMP I use & the speakers I use, I do not care what people will say so don't comment if you have nothing good to say.

KBMAN, Do not listen what people will say about this subject see for your self.;)

I Bi-Wired My setup using QED cable And it better in low end & high end it has separated the sound a bit, That my setup That I can hear a differents on my AMP I use & the speakers I use, I do not care what people will say so don't comment if you have nothing good to say.

KBMAN, Do not listen what people will say about this subject see for your self.;)

Coating the edges of a compact disc with a green marking pen will noticeably improve its sound quality, also. :)

Anyone ever hear of the "pyschological power of persuasion", or the "something for nothing" syndrome...:rolleyes:

Warning.. Placebo Effect outbreak. Quarantine immediately before it spreads.

I Bi-Wired My setup using QED cable And it better in low end & high end it has separated the sound a bit, That my setup That I can hear a differents on my AMP I use & the speakers I use, I do not care what people will say so don't comment if you have nothing good to say.

KBMAN, Do not listen what people will say about this subject see for your self.;)

Hey, if you can hear the difference in sound when the electrical circuit is identical, good for you. We are all happy for you.

And, just for the record, if the OP didn't care "what people will say" then he wouldn't have asked the question. If someone asks a question, they generally want responses to all sides of their question. Not just the positive ones.

It doesn't matter to me at all which he chooses to do. He asked for my opinion, and I gave it. Whether you care for it or not doesn't matter diddly squat.

What's wrong with your center speaker?

Hey, if you can hear the difference in sound when the electrical circuit is identical, good for you. We are all happy for you.

And, just for the record, if the OP didn't care "what people will say" then he wouldn't have asked the question. If someone asks a question, they generally want responses to all sides of their question. Not just the positive ones.

It doesn't matter to me at all which he chooses to do. He asked for my opinion, and I gave it. Whether you care for it or not doesn't matter diddly squat.

Are you using a electronic Breaker for Bi-wiring or the original CC stock Most people will use CC & hear no different in sound if you use a breaker to flash a CC in to a Breaker you will hear a different in sound.

http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html

Are you using a electronic Breaker for Bi-wiring or the original CC stock Most people will use CC & hear no different in sound if you use a breaker to flash a CC in to a Breaker you will hear a different in sound.
Perhaps you can explain in more detail what you're talking about here.

I Bi-Wired My setup using QED cable And it better in low end & high end it has separated the sound a bit, That my setup That I can hear a differents on my AMP I use & the speakers I use, I do not care what people will say so don't comment if you have nothing good to say.

KBMAN, Do not listen what people will say about this subject see for your self.;)OK. Let's suppose you DO hear a difference. How do you know specifically that it was the biwiring that made the difference and not just simply your new cable? ;)

OK. Let's suppose you DO hear a difference. How do you know specifically that it was the biwiring that made the difference and not just simply your new cable? ;)

I used 1 pair of my cable then I had some more of the QED cable but together when I whet Bi-Wiring it has separated the high & the low & Im going Bi-Amp very soon My amp that I use cost $9400 in Amp 2ch only, I'm buying one more for Bi-amp I can get the Amp cheaper now, I have the money & I what the best for my setup. We don't live very long anyway enjoy your self

We don't live very long anyway enjoy your self

I don't know about you, but personally I'm going to live forever!

I don't know about you, but personally I'm going to live forever!

You hope good luck getting a hot chick when you are 600 years old

You hope good luck getting a hot chick when you are 600 years old

As NPH would say, I accept that challenge!

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.tvsquad.com/media/2008/10/barneyoldman200.jpg

“When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.”

What's wrong with your center speaker?

Well, it was SUPPOSED to sonically match my paradigm studio 60's v.1, but on test tones, the sound is quite different. My studio 20's match the 60's quite well. For movies, I find it hard to make out voices sometimes because it sounds overly "resonate". What I am trying to find now is another pair of 60's v.1 and put one of them for the center. I heard from another that this is a good match....an exact match, plus it can handle more power. All that aside, I wish my center sounded better and I would rather bi-amp than bi-wire but I don't have another amp. Might try the bi-wire method, but I did that for my 60's because I had extra kimber kable laying around;)

http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html

Thats is a great article...Ethan always has some great stuff that everyone should read.

To the OP, you can Bi-wire if you want and you most likely will convince yourself it sounds different and better. I will stick with Science and say NOTHING is different scientifically.

Although, I will just put your name on the list of people and what silly things they do in this AV hobby....welcome to my little AV list ;)

I used 1 pair of my cable then I had some more of the QED cable but together when I whet Bi-Wiring it has separated the high & the low & Im going Bi-Amp very soon My amp that I use cost $9400 in Amp 2ch only, I'm buying one more for Bi-amp I can get the Amp cheaper now, I have the money & I what the best for my setup. We don't live very long anyway enjoy your self


hdblu, do you care about the science that disprove this time after time?

Also, since you spend extreme amounts of money on AV, I assume you have a treated room and you have all the proper measuring equipment to post the so called differences?

There is no reason to spend that much money without being a little more scientific dont you think? its amazing that ever single person that argues in favor of the snake oil stuff is the same people spending the most money ;) I can only assume that placebo effects are more extreme with these sort of people and with that I would wonder why they do not want to get all the proper equipment in place and run the proper measurements to find out the truth. If the following is true....I have the money & I what the best for my setup. We don't live very long anyway enjoy your self then he should spend the money and do it right.

Although, I will just put your name on the list of people and what silly things they do in this AV hobby....welcome to my little AV list ;)You're on that list, too, right? And me, too, right? ;)

You're on that list, too, right? And me, too, right?

Im DEFINITELY on that list! :D I do too many silly things!!!

Im not sure about you, your silliness is unkown ;)

Well, it was SUPPOSED to sonically match my paradigm studio 60's v.1, but on test tones, the sound is quite different. My studio 20's match the 60's quite well. For movies, I find it hard to make out voices sometimes because it sounds overly "resonate". What I am trying to find now is another pair of 60's v.1 and put one of them for the center. I heard from another that this is a good match....an exact match, plus it can handle more power. All that aside, I wish my center sounded better and I would rather bi-amp than bi-wire but I don't have another amp. Might try the bi-wire method, but I did that for my 60's because I had extra kimber kable laying around;)

The problem with "most" center channels is there horizontal nature as opposed to a vertical orientation of the R/L mains. Even if the exact same compliment of drivers is used, with a center channel you have the different alignment as well as different cabinet sizes. All of these things will play a role in the center channel being a close, but not exact match. Which then leads to some of the other problems you mentioned. Even three identical MTM type speakers across the front, once you lay one of them on their side.... the sound will be different.

The solution to an EXACT match across the front is what you mentioned.... three identical speakers. But, bare in mind that for even three identical speakers to sound the same across the front, all three must be placed at the same height. Not something easily done with most Home Theaters, which are often times compromises in a lot of areas.

The perfect solution is three identical speakers across the front behind an acoustically transparent screen. But, all of us are not able to achieve that. But once again, to answer your original question, bi-wiring that center will not change the sound at all.

I'll second what quadriverfalls said. The issues you're describing are NOT going to be rectified with biwiring, biamping, or any of that stuff. All that would do is give you additional time to get used to what appears to be some sort of mismatch going on. Apart from trying to score a single speaker to match your fronts, have you run this past the folks over at Paradigm? Maybe you can post a pic of your general setup. I'm assuming you've used an SPL meter, set the speakers to small, played with crossovers for the fronts for sub integration and all that good stuff.

Optimizing placement of your center speaker is important. Where is the speaker located? Above your ears? Below your ears? On a shelf? Under a shelf? In a shelf? Etc., etc.? Is it tilted toward the plane of your ears? What is isolating the speaker from the shelf it is on (padding, rubber bumpers, etc.)? Is the front of the speaker recessed, behind the front edge of the shelf? Can you post a pic of your front array?

Do you have links to your particular speakers? Many of Paradigm's center channel speakers are actually fairly well-designed as far as horizontal center speakers go. On the other hand, if your center is a 2-way (or 2.5-way), with no midrange driver, and your L/R speakers DO feature a midrange driver, they, of course, ARE going to sound different. But just because it sounds different with test tones does not necessarily mean it will sound so much so with real material. Hell, depending upon the room, most peoples' identical L and R speakers probably sound different with test tones.

Yes, identical sound across the front is important but I do not think that this is necessarily your (only) issue. So, that said, a 3rd matching speaker may solve your problems (probably will), but it will not be simply because it is a matching speaker. It will also be a proper vertical speaker. And will also probably represent a better speaker.

Do you have links to your particular speakers?


I believe he has the CC-450.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb246/gunbunnysoulja/cc-450.jpg?t=1228510437

I'm not sure I follow all the discussion here, but I had a similar question.

My fronts are bi-amp/bi-wire ready. I have a Pioneer 1018 which is a 7.1 receiver, but I am running a 5.1 setup. Therefore, I could go either way (if I bi-amped, it would be from the two back surround hookups).

So...

1) Am I reading correctly that bi-amping and bi-wiring has NO effect (sonically speaking...ie. fact based). If there is a difference by adding more juice,

2) Which will result in a better performance from the speaker?

i have the studio 60s with a cc450 v-1 i have always had them bi-wired. not to long ago i put the jumpers back in & ran some mono price 12-g wire,and though it sounded the same.after listening for a wile i changed it back and thought it sounded better. my bi wire is mit bi-4. i dont no whats inside those boxes but it looks good.:D

For loudspeaker protection you’ll need Behringer DCX2496 (loudspeaker management crossover system) its the ultimate way to B-chain the loudspeakers or go tri-amp the possibilities are wondrous.

So...

1) Am I reading correctly that bi-amping and bi-wiring has NO effect (sonically speaking...ie. fact based). If there is a difference by adding more juice,

2) Which will result in a better performance from the speaker?There is a difference between biwiring and (passive) biamping. Whether EITHER provides better performance is arguable. Biamping (passive) MAY provide some benefit when separate amplifier units are utilized, but this benefit is probably significantly diminished when you use the extra amps in a receiver to passively biamp. When you biamp, the increase in the amount of "juice" the speaker receives is minimal. You do not at all double the power going to the speaker. Far from it.

If you have the extra wiring and want to try biamping your speakers, go ahead and try it. If you "think" it sounds better, that is all that really matters. But try and be as objective as possible.


As sort of an aside, biamping, by definition, is also biwiring. So, it is quite possible that any perceived benefit when biamping is actually being provided because the speakers are also biwired. ;)

There is a difference between biwiring and (passive) biamping. Whether EITHER provides better performance is arguable. Biamping (passive) MAY provide some benefit when separate amplifier units are utilized, but this benefit is probably significantly diminished when you use the extra amps in a receiver to passively biamp. When you biamp, the increase in the amount of "juice" the speaker receives is minimal. You do not at all double the power going to the speaker. Far from it.

If you have the extra wiring and want to try biamping your speakers, go ahead and try it. If you "think" it sounds better, that is all that really matters. But try and be as objective as possible.


As sort of an aside, biamping, by definition, is also biwiring. So, it is quite possible that any perceived benefit when biamping is actually being provided because the speakers are also biwired. ;)

Thanks for the reply. Makes sense to me.

Title says it all. I've got an NAD THX 125 wpc amp and I have the two fronts bi-wired. Would it help if I bi-wired the center channel as well? I have Paradigm Reference v.1 Speakers.....thanks in advance,

If you bi-wired the two fronts than go ahead and do the center. Experiment for yourself. I know that we are talking about bi-wiring, not the quality of spkr. cables but I would like to know........for those that don't believe, I guess they are using standard lamp cord for spkr. wire.
Do race car drivers use standard mass produced spark plug wires?
I have read in a couple of spkr. owners manuals that bi-wiring is for the person that wants to get the last 2% of improvement. I love this hobby so when my wallet lets me I'm going to do little things as well as big things to improve the experience.

Bought my speakers from a long-time audiophile dealer. He told me that bi-wiring does absolutely nothing and is a waste of money. Bi-amping, he said, however, DOES make a difference. This coming from a guy with a full Rega and Monitor Audio Platinum setup who obviously isn't afraid to spend extra money on something if it sounds better. I trust his experience.

If you bi-wired the two fronts than go ahead and do the center. Experiment for yourself. I know that we are talking about bi-wiring, not the quality of spkr. cables but I would like to know........for those that don't believe, I guess they are using standard lamp cord for spkr. wire.


There is a thing called science and sadly not everyone that buys AV equipment cares to accept Science, they instead like to "believe" there can be a difference convincing themselves there is. PLACEBO is HUGE in the AV world!!

People that know the science will buy the CORRECT gauge of speaker wire, its that simple. If lamp cord is the correct gauge then its 100% fine (can not use it in-wall though so we need different speaker wire then)....ZERO SQ difference between that and the silly over priced stuff. Granted, some people like better looking wire ;)


Do race car drivers use standard mass produced spark plug wires?

Are you asking this because you know or do you believe they waste money because they just can?


I have read in a couple of spkr. owners manuals that bi-wiring is for the person that wants to get the last 2% of improvement. I love this hobby so when my wallet lets me I'm going to do little things as well as big things to improve the experience.

The spkr. owners manual is simply lying too you. Its not that hard to understand why Bi-wire does not improve anything, how can people believe it would?

If you bi-wired the two fronts than go ahead and do the center. Experiment for yourself. I know that we are talking about bi-wiring, not the quality of spkr. cables but I would like to know........for those that don't believe,...........
1. I have a collection of rather expensive and generally respectable speaker wire from a variety of manufacturers.

2. I usually do biwire (in one of my systems) because some manufacturers (cable and speaker) insist that their products can only sound their best with biwiring.

3. I have never heard a difference between biwiring and single-wiring.

Leadliner's comment made me post:

When you biwire, you remove the strap and replace it with speaker wire. Since the strap is usually made of el-cheapo low-conductance crap and is usually replaced with decent speaker wire, the sound changes a bit.

It also needs to be restated that when you biwire you double the gauge of wire. The proper test is to compare biwire to a single wire setup (with wire straps to the second set of posts) that is 3 AWG larger than the wire used for the biwire setup. If you do this you will not likely hear a difference.

When you biwire, you remove the strap and replace it with speaker wire. Since the strap is usually made of el-cheapo low-conductance crap and is usually replaced with decent speaker wire, the sound changes a bit.

It also needs to be restated that when you biwire you double the gauge of wire. The proper test is to compare biwire to a single wire setup (with wire straps to the second set of posts) that is 3 AWG larger than the wire used for the biwire setup. If you do this you will not likely hear a difference.

Oh please, please post the scientific data to back up that whooper ;)

You are aware that @ 6 feet a 10 AWG and a 16 AWG wire sounds the same right? We could go to 15 feet and guess what, the same sound again...its pretty simple science stuff ;)

Better try that, Kal.

Oh please, please post the scientific data to back up that whooper ;)

You are aware that @ 6 feet a 10 AWG and a 16 AWG wire sounds the same right? We could go to 15 feet and guess what, the same sound again...its pretty simple science stuff ;)

:D

Just controling the variables...he may have 100 feet of wire you know! Alternatively, he may be using 24 AWG :eek:. Reducto ad absurdum.

Leadliner's comment made me post:

When you biwire, you remove the strap and replace it with speaker wire. Since the strap is usually made of el-cheapo low-conductance crap and is usually replaced with decent speaker wire, the sound changes a bit.Nonsense. 2 inches of gold-plated solid metal is highly conductive. Heck, 2 inches of the plating, by itself, would be more than adequate. Have you ever measured the resistance?

It also needs to be restated that when you biwire you double the gauge of wire. The proper test is to compare biwire to a single wire setup (with wire straps to the second set of posts) that is 3 AWG larger than the wire used for the biwire setup. If you do this you will not likely hear a difference.Nah. I already don't hear one. :p

Agreed Kal, if the strap is hefty and gold plated. I'm sure that's not a concern for the gear you own/review ;), but there are some chintzy excuses for straps out there that should be replaced.

Agreed Kal, if the strap is hefty and gold plated. I'm sure that's not a concern for the gear you own/review ;), but there are some chintzy excuses for straps out there that should be replaced.

Mebbe. Would be easier and cheaper than biwiring.