I'm going to be setting out into the world of 2.4:1 projection in 2009 and I've been reading up on building my own screen but I was hoping that someone could critique my plans before I get too far along and possibly make a few suggestions. This is mostly just throwing together ideas from other people's builds, but sometimes a little from here and a little from there might not give the expected end product so I thought I'd solicit opinions. In case anyone asks I'm going for ~110'' diagonal, so about 101''x42'' viewable. I was thinking about a 3'' velvet border, but I don't know if there's some kind of rule of thumb for how big a border should be given screen size.

First, I decided up front that I don't want to paint. Not that I don't think it's a good idea, I just don't want to get involved in that as it could be messy, time consuming, and prone to me screwing it up :D I considered the BOC but I think I've settled on Wilsonart DW that I can get from Lowes just around the corner.

For the frame I'm really liking 1'' square aluminum tubing with connectors from a place like EZtube. For me the time saved snapping an aluminum frame together vs. cutting and fastening wood is worth the extra money, and the weight savings should be a considerable help as well. Industrial velcro appears to be the method of choice for attaching laminate to an aluminum frame?

With the easy part out of the way, the black velvet border is where I'm currently hesitating. I didn't want to go with the black velvet tape, as I want something with a little thickness to it. My current plan is either 1x4's or 3/4'' MDF cut to size and wrapped in black velvet. I'm really not sure how to go about sticking that to the laminate, which is where I could really use some suggestions. I don't imagine that more velcro is the answer, so I was wondering about something like gorilla glue? Any ideas on either a better material for the border or a better way to attach it to the laminate would be appreciated.

Finally, all that should be left is the masking. Again I decided early that I didn't want to use curtains or any other "movable" mask that gets pulled on and off the screen. Here I think I may have had an original idea, but it seems so obvious that I'm almost sure it's been done before and I've just never seen a thread about it. I was thinking of making masking panels cut to size out of MDF and wrapping them in black velvet to match the border. From there small pockets could be hollowed out of the corners in the back of the panel and rare earth magnets glued or otherwise held in. Obviously magnets could then be glued to the back side of the laminate screen in the correct position and the masking panels should be able to be installed and removed easily whenever I want to switch aspect ratios. The laminate is so thin that I shouldn't even need large magnets, and one in each corner of the panel should probably hold the weight. Does that sound like a reasonable plan? And has it been done before?

Any ideas at all about this build plan would be greatly appreciated as I've just started pricing materials and I'm expecting to receive a few power tools for Christmas to facilitate the project. Thank you all for sharing your previous builds which formed the foundation and inspiration for giving this a try.

I was thinking about a 3'' velvet border, but I don't know if there's some kind of rule of thumb for how big a border should be given screen size.


With the easy part out of the way, the black velvet border is where I'm currently hesitating. I didn't want to go with the black velvet tape, as I want something with a little thickness to it. My current plan is either 1x4's or 3/4'' MDF cut to size and wrapped in black velvet. I'm really not sure how to go about sticking that to the laminate, which is where I could really use some suggestions. I don't imagine that more velcro is the answer, so I was wondering about something like gorilla glue? Any ideas on either a better material for the border or a better way to attach it to the laminate would be appreciated.

Finally, all that should be left is the masking. Again I decided early that I didn't want to use curtains or any other "movable" mask that gets pulled on and off the screen. Here I think I may have had an original idea, but it seems so obvious that I'm almost sure it's been done before and I've just never seen a thread about it. I was thinking of making masking panels cut to size out of MDF and wrapping them in black velvet to match the border. From there small pockets could be hollowed out of the corners in the back of the panel and rare earth magnets glued or otherwise held in. Obviously magnets could then be glued to the back side of the laminate screen in the correct position and the masking panels should be able to be installed and removed easily whenever I want to switch aspect ratios. The laminate is so thin that I shouldn't even need large magnets, and one in each corner of the panel should probably hold the weight. Does that sound like a reasonable plan? And has it been done before?

Any ideas at all about this build plan would be greatly appreciated as I've just started pricing materials and I'm expecting to receive a few power tools for Christmas to facilitate the project. Thank you all for sharing your previous builds which formed the foundation and inspiration for giving this a try.

Magius, welcome to DIY scope HT!
I'm at the border stage now with my DIY screen, what I've bought but not used yet is 1 x 6 PVC base board trim from home depot, I plan on ripping it in half via table saw for a real 3/4" x 2 3/4" stock for border. I'm wrapping mine in black velvet and will use ind strgth velcro. It will have 45 miter ends, I've toyed with the idea of taking a router along the inner edge for a bevel as well, I will try that on a short/scrap piece and see how wrapping that goes. I think a inner bevel edge will give that high level PQ look.

Masking, I'm doing manual as well, but can I ask why the heavy duty MDF panels?
Why not some foam core board from a craft store? Much lighter. Honestly that's my image, I've seen that stuff at work so I'm sure it's available.
I also have leftover rare earth magnets, so same as you they will be the attach method to the border (put the magnets in the border prior to velvet, all same side polarity).

Keep posting your thoughts/progress and good luck.

Foam for the masking panels sounds like a great idea! I guess I just hadn't thought of that. Like I said before I hadn't read of anyone making removable panels to mask with, it seemed like everyone used curtains or a motorized system, so my unimaginative mind just went to wood for the panels.

I also like the idea of using a baseboard for the border. I was going to cut an edge on some kind of wood before wrapping it, but I imagine you could even find a baseboard already in the right shape and not have to cut or use a router to make it look nice. I see you're planning on velcro, I just wasn't sure if a 1'' strip of velcro would sufficiently hold a 3'' border "flush" to the screen. I'm not afraid of the borders "falling off" or anything, but I would think there might be a visible gap on the top edges where the velcro wasn't touching, particularly if you figure gravity pulls the bottom down and pulls the top away from the surface, if that makes sense...?

Thank you for both of your suggestions and please let me know how your borders and panels turn out when you get done. I won't be starting my project until early next year but eventually I hope to post pictures of the build.

I'm really not sure how to go about sticking that to the laminate, which is where I could really use some suggestions. I don't imagine that more velcro is the answer, so I was wondering about something like gorilla glue? Any ideas on either a better material for the border or a better way to attach it to the laminate would be appreciated.

Velcro might actually prove to be the best solution, although you would want to staple it to the back of your wood border. If the border is bigger than your overall aluminum frame you might be able to use small angle brackets to attach it to the outside edge of the aluminum. I would avoid gorilla glue. It foams up and expands slightly as it cures and there is the possibility it could ooze out between the border and the screen. And once cured, it is impossible to remove.

Are you going to curve the screen to eliminate pincushion or not?

I built a 9.5' curved screen much simpler than the aluminum. Basically it is nothing more that two horizontal 1x4 screwed to the wall (one at top of screen, one at bottom). To those are attached a 1x3 screwed to the 1x4 in the center, then screwed to standoffs every 11" to produce the curve. Then 5 vertical 1x3 are attached to the curved 1x3 to help attach the laminate to to ensure flatness. The laminate is then attached from the front using industrial strength velcro.

I then velvet wrapped baseboard trim and sufficiently warped the top and bottom, then just velco attached them to the laminate sticking about 1/2" past the edge of the laminate. Looks great, didn't cost much--what more do you want? :)

Finally, all that should be left is the masking. Again I decided early that I didn't want to use curtains or any other "movable" mask that gets pulled on and off the screen. Here I think I may have had an original idea, but it seems so obvious that I'm almost sure it's been done before and I've just never seen a thread about it. I was thinking of making masking panels cut to size out of MDF and wrapping them in black velvet to match the border. From there small pockets could be hollowed out of the corners in the back of the panel and rare earth magnets glued or otherwise held in. Obviously magnets could then be glued to the back side of the laminate screen in the correct position and the masking panels should be able to be installed and removed easily whenever I want to switch aspect ratios. The laminate is so thin that I shouldn't even need large magnets, and one in each corner of the panel should probably hold the weight. Does that sound like a reasonable plan? And has it been done before?


I know other people have used magnets in their masking systems with good results, so this approach is definetly doable. For my 120" wide scope screen, I made two 12" x 51" panel frames out of 1x2 poplar and wraped them in the same black velvet I used for my screen frame. They are held in place by friction where the masking panels meet at the top and bottom of the screen frame. When the masks are in place, they blend in seamlessly with the screen frame. It literally only takes a couple of seconds to put the mask panels in place.

I have used the foam board previously, but I prefer the poplar frame because it is far more rigid and has very straight edges, while still being relatively light weight. If you do a masking system like this though, you can't have too deep of a bevel on the frame boards, or else there won't be enough surface area for the friction fit.

This is all assuming you are doing a flat scope screen. If you are planning a curved screen, then things get more complicated as far as masking systems are concerned.

Person99, I was not planning on curving the screen for pincushion correction. Some day when I have a dedicated theater I think I'd like a curved AT screen, but for now I just want a fixed flat screen on the wall.

Phisch, let me get this straight. You took 1x2's and stuck a bunch of them together side by side to make a solid panel? So in the end it's 3/4'' deep and you have a little under 7 boards worth stuck together to make it 12'' wide? I'm wondering why you wouldn't have just cut a sheet of MDF to size, but maybe you had leftover poplar from frame construction, or maybe I just totally misunderstood what you're saying? :)

In any case I've been doing a lot of browsing for materials and pricing everything out and I think I have everything planned out now but the screen border. I really like the idea of some kind of pre-molded wood like a baseboard which a couple people have recommended. I'd like as much bevel as possible so friction fitting the masking panels seems out of the question...

Here's what I've been able to price out so far not including taxes or shipping where applicable. Let me know if something doesn't sound right:
1'' Aluminum Tubes & connectors - $??? (no quote yet)
Wilsonart DW Laminate 4x10 - $84.67
2''x15' Industrial Velcro (2 boxes) - $38.10
Screen border material (not sure yet) - $???
7 yards Black Velvet ($6.99/yd) - $49
3/16'' FoamCore 20x30'' ($3 ea.) - $18
3M Super 77 (for stacking FoamCore) - $10.50
Neodymium Magnets (30-50 pack) - $10
So my estimated total is at about $215 plus ~$150 for the aluminum frame and some amount for the screen border. Should be under $400 total. Is that normal or does it sound high? Compared to Carada it's less than half price, but then people have been talking about Focupix where a 110'' is ~$285 including shipping...?

Don't get me wrong I'm set on building my own as I think half the fun will be knowing I made it. Plus I can trust the materials thanks to the tests done at these forums. Something just got me thinking that my price was creeping up higher than I expected and should be <$300?

Thanks a lot!

Phisch, let me get this straight. You took 1x2's and stuck a bunch of them together side by side to make a solid panel? So in the end it's 3/4'' deep and you have a little under 7 boards worth stuck together to make it 12'' wide? I'm wondering why you wouldn't have just cut a sheet of MDF to size, but maybe you had leftover poplar from frame construction, or maybe I just totally misunderstood what you're saying?

No, I used the 1x2 poplar to make a rectangular frame like a picture frame. I then stretched the black velvet across the frame and stapled the fabric to the back. Hence, the reason it is lightwieght, yet very sturdy.

Person99, I was not planning on curving the screen for pincushion correction. Some day when I have a dedicated theater I think I'd like a curved AT screen, but for now I just want a fixed flat screen on the wall.


You didn't state in your original post what your throw is, but if it is longer than 2.0 then the pincushion should be very slight and the flat screen should work fine.

Thank you for clearing up what you did with the poplar. You did say panel "frames" the first time around, I guess I just didn't catch that. That does sound like a good idea, but I'm going to start with the Foamcore (wrapped in black velvet of course) and see how that works out.

Regarding throw distance I'm still a bit new to calculating throw and zoom. Using the Projector Calculator Pro it says that with a Panny AE3000 and 1.2 gain plugged in for the WA DW I can throw an ample brightness 110'' 2.4:1 screen anywhere from 11'5'' to 22'8''. That screen would be 101'' wide so to get a throw ratio of 2 or more I'd want to be at least 16'10'' back? I haven't quite figured out how far back I'll be throwing from, but I guess I'll have to see how bad the pincushion is, and if I can't zoom out to mask it I'll have to move the projector back. I do hope it doesn't wind up too bad, because a curved screen is not an option this time around. Thanks.

You didn't state in your original post what your throw is, but if it is longer than 2.0 then the pincushion should be very slight and the flat screen should work fine.

At just over 2.0 throw, the pincushion is just over 1/4". I sit at 2.84 screen heights and I can easily see 1/4" of pincushion at that distance (because it either goes onto the border, or you have a straight edge as reference.

At a 2.0 throw, you need to curve the screen to an almost 3" depth. The other nice thing about that is that it makes the image brighter.

But, if you are curious about my set up I'm a bit under that TR.

Using the Projector Calculator Pro it says that with a Panny AE3000 and 1.2 gain plugged in for the WA DW I can throw an ample brightness 110'' 2.4:1 screen anywhere from 11'5'' to 22'8''.

First thing to know, the Projector Calculator Pro image brightness is WAAAAAAY off. WAAAAY, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off.

How far off it is is completely based upon how big of a liar the PJ manufacturer is. The calculator uses the manufacturers numbers for lumens. Correctly calibrated you will get far less lumens.

For instance, Calculator pro says I should get 19 ftL from my PJ. I really get 14 ftL.

You will get ample brightness at 110" wide with that PJ, just not the brightness it claims.

The best thing to do is find a review of your PJ where then measured the calibrated ANSI lumens, then calculate your image brightness from that. If you are zooming, don't forget to only use the active image percentage, or to calculate for the "real" 16:9 image size.

Person99 thank you for the detailed information, it was much appreciated. I did know about the brightness on the calculator being Mfg. specs, but I guess I was just citing it for the throw ranges it gave me as a starting point. You did raise my interest with this particular statement:
At just over 2.0 throw, the pincushion is just over 1/4".

As I said before I'm new to the calculations of front projection, but is there a formula to calculate amount of pincushion distortion based on throw ratio? Then based on that it seems you calculated you would need a 3'' curve depth to correct a 1/4'' pincushion... is there a formula for that too? That would be great information for when I do try a curved screen, even if it's a few years down the road. I haven't been reading as many curved screen threads as I have flat screen threads, so I apologize if that stuff is "common knowledge" around here :D.

One last thing, I think I'll be sitting a little over 3 screen heights from the picture, and the intent was to make the pincushion go into the border if necessary depending on how bad it was. I was hoping that black velvet wouldn't allow that little trick to be seen. Are you saying that 1/4'' or so of projected image on your border is noticeable and/or distracting while watching a movie? Thanks again!

P

As I said before I'm new to the calculations of front projection, but is there a formula to calculate amount of pincushion distortion based on throw ratio? Then based on that it seems you calculated you would need a 3'' curve depth to correct a 1/4'' pincushion... is there a formula for that too? That would be great information for when I do try a curved screen, even if it's a few years down the road. I haven't been reading as many curved screen threads as I have flat screen threads, so I apologize if that stuff is "common knowledge" around here :D.



Do a search on AussieBob and his threads, he PM'd me an excel sheet that did the calc for pincushion based on many parameters.

I'm not the "owner" of that, so I won't PM you it.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FqTNmgNQHz8/SUK71TRuW2I/AAAAAAAACrg/LKAHX4jEWTM/s800/AussieBobCalc.JPG

Yes AussieBob's spreadsheet is definately the easiest (much easier than calculating yourself!). We all owe Bob a beer for that one!

As I said before I'm new to the calculations of front projection, but is there a formula to calculate amount of pincushion distortion based on throw ratio?

It also needs to take into account image size. I was throwing out a number for a "typical" size screen like mine (scope width of 9.5 feet).

One last thing, I think I'll be sitting a little over 3 screen heights from the picture, and the intent was to make the pincushion go into the border if necessary depending on how bad it was. I was hoping that black velvet wouldn't allow that little trick to be seen. Are you saying that 1/4'' or so of projected image on your border is noticeable and/or distracting while watching a movie? Thanks again!

Nothing can completely absorb the light. But, if your border is shaped right and it is really only about 1/4" it is pretty hard to notice.

Thanks again Person99, and mtbdudex too for the tip on the spreadsheet. I did go searching some old threads and then PMd AussieBob to see if he'll shoot me a copy.

On the bright side I'm just about done with the build planning and cost estimating. After a trip to Lowes this afternoon I think I've settled on MDF base molding for the screen frame. I found one that is 3.25'' wide and about a half inch thick with a nice sloping bezel down to nearly nothing. At just under $1 a foot I can't imagine anything else being worthwhile, although I do still need about 27 feet of the stuff... One remaining question that is bothering me is that my screen is about 9'' wide so I'll have to buy either a 10' or 12' board (whatever they carry). I probably can't even get the 9' cutoff home in one piece, so I guess I have to cut it? Is that recommended? I guess I could just reattach the two pieces with wood glue and/or some hardware before wrapping with the velvet so that at least from the outside there's no seam?

I also got a quote this afternoon from my local 8020 QuickFrame distributor. $88 and change +tax and shipping. I couldn't get them to completely peg the shipping but they're approximating $12-17. I just want to be sure I don't get burned like the poor guy in another thread who got a $200 shipping bill a couple weeks after delivery. They can anodize the aluminum black which I'd prefer but that's an additional charge of ~$130!! I guess I'll be buying some spray paint if I decide I have to have black aluminum. Just seems odd when other companies charge the same price for "clear" vs. black anodized aluminum... Guess I need another quote or two before a final decision.

Speaking of spray paint, that reminds me of one other question I had that hopefully someone more experienced can answer. Both the FoamCore board and the MDF base molding that I plan to cover in black velvet are white. Should I be concerned about that? Should I paint them black before wrapping them in the velvet? I've never done anything with fabric before so I can't visualize how "thick" the velvet fabric will be, or whether it could be possible for the white underneath it to detract from its effect.

Thanks a lot for all of the feedback and tips so far! I can't wait to get started on this, but unfortunately I have to wait until after the holidays...

If possible I'd say try and use the piece whole, I can only see problems with trying to cut it at a 45 and re-atttaching it. Is the problem getting it in the car (stick out the windows with red rag) or basement access?

I did NOT paint my white board black, but maybe my velvet was overkill, it was JoAnns "furniture grade velvet" at 50% still $17/yard, I got 3.75 yards so $60's for just that. If your velvet is thinner might be some see thru, I'm not sure, try a 1" or 2" swatch, wrap it and look if you can see thru or not before painting.

Good luck on your build, it is exciting, post picts.

I do want to try to use the trim pieces whole. Cutting was making me nervous so I guess I'll have to see whether either of our hatchbacks can handle it. Like you said out the window with a flag might have to suffice. Fortunately Lowes is literally about a mile from my house so if I can make it fit I won't have far to go.

As far as the fabric goes I was trying to go as cheap as possible, and it seemed the $7/yd stuff at Sysfabrics has been recommended in various threads. As you said I'll probably just have to see what it looks like after I buy it and then decide whether paint is required. I wouldn't think so but I figured better to ask first.

When I do get around to building this I will definitely take some pictures. I wish I could get started sooner but I have to wait until after New Years. I'm slammed at work, out of town for the holiday break and getting married between Christmas and New Years ;) On the bright side when I come back I expect to have mucho dinero in the way of Lowes gift cards and some shiny new power tools from my parents. My fiance even asked her dad for Lowes cards for Christmas so that she can pitch in towards the screen :D

and getting married between Christmas and New Years ;) On the bright side when I come back I expect to have mucho dinero in the way of Lowes gift cards and some shiny new power tools from my parents. My fiance even asked her dad for Lowes cards for Christmas so that she can pitch in towards the screen :D

How'd that childhood rhyme go??
(and I have NOT said this in 35-40 years)

First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes kids in the baby carriage :eek::eek:

Congratulations!
(and I'm working in the basement HT right now while my 3 young ones sleep, almost the only time for my projects to get completed)

Well it's been quiet in here but I thought I'd post an update regarding quotes on aluminum and connectors for the framing. I've gotten 4 different quotes and I thought people might find the information useful for their own projects.

I won't post part numbers as they would of course be different for each company, but my frame needs the following basic parts:
(6) 34.667'' length 1'' aluminum square tubes (3 ea. top and bottom "width" of screen)
(4) 47'' length 1'' aluminum square tubes (2 ea. either side "height" of screen, 2 ea. vertical supports)
(4) 2-way corner connectors
(4) 3-way 'T' connectors
(10) custom cuts for aluminum tubes

First, the quote I got from my local 8020.net distributor. They offered $88.28 for clear anodized tubes, plus an estimated $12-17 shipping and 6% sales tax. Black anodized tubes would cost $138.95 more than clear.
Total for clear: ~$110.58, Total for black: ~$252.57

Second, the other commonly referenced option around here, EZtube.com. They did not quote me a price on clear tubes but offered $168.50 in black anodized, plus $24.65 shipping and no tax.
Total for clear: N/A, Total for black: $193.15

Third, a company I found searching Google, Esto Connectors. They offered $94 for clear anodized tubes, plus an estimated $25-30 shipping and no sales tax. Black anodized tubes were only $13 more ($107), not a bad deal?
Total for clear: ~$124, Total for black: ~$137

Finally, another company I found searching Google, Brunner Enterprises. They quoted me $107.42 for clear tubes and $136.22 for black. Shipping is $19.59 in either case and again, no tax.
Total for clear: $127.01, Total for black: $155.81

For the most part the products seem very similar. The measurements of wall thickness and outer diameter of the tubes tend to vary by a few thousandths of an inch, but the idea should be the same. Brunner's quote did make me a little nervous as they clearly state "Note: These connectors and tubing are removable and there will be play at the joints." I had been led by other posters to believe these are very snug fitting and that note had me a tad nervous.

In any case, the cheapest option appears to be the 8020.net clear tubing with a $3 can of black spray paint, or if I'm feeling really lazy Esto can sell me black tubing for ~$25 extra. I haven't made a final decision yet, and probably wont order anything until after the holidays, but again I thought this information might be useful to other people considering aluminum frame builds. Let me know if anyone has any comments, and I hope I haven't done any disservice by posting pricing information, as everything is strictly "MSRP" as quoted and we're only talking aluminum tubes here, not discounts on projectors ;)

Note: Edited to correct Esto Connectors pricing and shipping information.

Sounds like you are on you way.

When painting the alum tubing go for hi-temp engine paint (low gloss), I've found that to be much more durable than std paint, just under $6/can at Murrays/other auto stores.

I've also used that to paint can light's trim from white to black.
(got the white with the contractors pack at HD, cheaper to paint black than buy more trim in black molded color)

Just for reference, I used the Bosch tubing, and have online quotes for 20mmx20mm and 30mm x 30mm. (these are public figures directly from their website)
Your prices seem comparable. The Bosch stuff is used extensively in industry for fixtures/jigs, it's very rigid for it's size, and easy to attach stuff to with it's channels/grooves.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_FqTNmgNQHz8/SCs5ilApgyI/AAAAAAAAB50/cU830TDM9qE/s800/Bosch%20Rexroth%20Aluminum%20Framing%20Shop%2020x20.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FqTNmgNQHz8/SEScacTcnbI/AAAAAAAACDI/Uwbp0ICmHd4/s800/DIYScreenCartBoschRexroth.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_FqTNmgNQHz8/SESeu8TcncI/AAAAAAAACDQ/LJgYunYsnyM/s800/DIYScreenCartBoschRexroth30.jpg

Magius & Mike,

Here is another supplier of aluminum tubing for screen frames;

Outwater: http://www.outwatercatalogs.com/2008_Master/lg_display.cfm?page_number=149


John :D

mtbdudex I've read through your thread and I did look up the aluminum that you were using, specifically the 20x20 profile. To be honest, I'm not very mechanically inclined (I'm a computer/electronics person :o) and it was boggling my mind what to do with those profiles and what kind of connectors you need to fasten them. It just didn't look as simple as:
1: Insert connector into end of tube
2: Bang with mallet
3: Rinse & Repeat (Wow I even discovered the missing step 3!)
4: Profit!!!

Then beyond that I was concerned about attaching velcro to those profiles because of the channel in the middle. Effectively the adhesive on the velcro tape would have 1/3 less area to adhere to.

Now maybe a profile like the 20x20 2SA would be interesting. I didn't see those in my first glance but I can imagine the flat sides pointing away from the screenwall and "out" from screens center, with the channel sides pointing into the wall and "in". That would give me a flat surface to attach velcro to, and a flat surface around the perimeter as seen from the outside (cleaner look IMHO), but leave the channel cut sides inside where they might be used as french cleats or for other mounting methods. Sounds like it would work well, but the whole "how do I connect these together" thing was still bugging me. I've figured it out by looking at their site that the conenctors are really screw-in brackets of sorts, so it's definitely different than the method used on tubes... Are there advantages to this type of profile and connectors? It looks more secure? Just not sure if it's worth the extra labor and expense.

HDGTX,
Thanks for the tip on one more aluminum source. I'll request a quote from them this morning and see how they compare. They have prices on their website but I always request a quote anyway to make sure things like the cost of custom cutting, etc. get accounted for.

Magius,

In Mike's thread several folks used the T-slots to secure fabrics to their T-slot frames;

"cubesys" (Itai) used wooden dowels press fitted in to the tracks to hold his AT fabric (posts 12, 13, 16 & 20).

"Nasty N8" used rubber hose (posts; 24 & 31).

"GetGray" used Bosch channel covers to secure his BOC fabric.

Bosch also sells the T-slot tubing with some of the faces smooth as well, you could then velcro your surface
to one of those, while using the T-slot sides for fastening or hanging. Think the smooth side pieces are more expensive.

John :D

Magius,

In Mike's thread several folks used the T-slots to secure fabrics to their T-slot frames;

"cubesys" (Itai) used wooden dowels press fitted in to the tracks to hold his AT fabric (posts 12, 13, 16 & 20).

"Nasty N8" used rubber hose (posts; 24 & 31).

"GetGray" used Bosch channel covers to secure his BOC fabric.

Bosch also sells the T-slot tubing with some of the faces smooth as well, you could then velcro your surface
to one of those, while using the T-slot sides for fastening or hanging. Think the smooth side pieces are more expensive.

John :D

Magius;
Just giving you different options, I'm sure as others have found the tubing you plan on using would work.

As John pointed out a couple of easy ways to attach the screen, plus if you are really set on velcro then you can get the profile with one side smooth.

The corner braces really contributed to the out-plane stiffness of the frame, and they went together so easy. I'm not so sure how the other sq tubing get's it's out-plane stiffness.

Sub assemble the corner gussets:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/mtbdudex/SGl1BfZITLI/AAAAAAAACJY/SrM91GEVYyk/s400/IMG_7695.JPG

drill holes in the top and bottom member for Allen wrench tightening of end screws in the 5 vertical members.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/mtbdudex/SGl1CF7J18I/AAAAAAAACJc/ebodsy7W88s/s400/IMG_7696.JPG

Attach corner gussets, once or twice I was not sure it locked correctly, so I used a finish nail to "hold" it while initially tightening it, that worked and ensured 100% correct alignment:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/mtbdudex/SGl1E5WRKkI/AAAAAAAACJo/UgSc8CLUG8g/s400/IMG_7699.JPG


Anyway, what's important is you feel comfortable/confident in your project.
The Bosch tubing also worked for me because I was able to mount the wood blocks to it and the extruded x-section gave a perfect center to drill a hole and shoot screws consistently @ exact center of tub, no drill "walking" on squirrely alum surf (or pre-hit with a center punch).

Good luck, I'll follow your project soon to be fellow 2.35:1 'er! :D

HDGTX,
The methods you're referencing do make a lot of sense, of course since I'm going with a laminate screen rather than fabric it's a whole different ballgame. I did mention the T-slot profiles with the flat sides (20x20 2SA in mtbdudex's picture) as a possibility, but thanks for pointing out how the T-channel can be innovatively used for fabric screens. I may even file that away for a future AT screen ;)

mtbdudex,
Thanks again for the information and most of all the pictures. I can see now more clearly how I would put together a T-slot frame, but honestly with words like "drill" and "screw" I'm leaning back towards "bang with mallet" :D I think you nailed it right on that the standard tubing won't have the out of plane stiffness that the corner braces would provide, but I don't think the extra cost and effort is necessary for my little project. Definitely glad I could learn a bit from you though, and again I think I'll file the T-slot option away for a future AT curved screen. The extra stiffness should help resist the pull of curved wood.

Getting back to business here, I did want to correct one minor error in a previous post. I overlooked a quote that I had from Esto Connectors for clear anodized tubes which was $94, and this morning I got them to estimate shipping for me at $25-30. I'll go back and edit this info a couple posts back to correct the comparison. In the end I think I've decided on the Esto product for ~$135 shipped. Their black tubes are only $25 more than the cheapest quote I received for clear tubing (8020.net), and they'll save me the time and trouble of spray painting.

One final post while I'm here, a mock-up layout for my black velvet cutting.

I drew a big black rectangle to scale (in Visio) to represent 4 yards of the plush black velvet from Sy Fabrics which they say is at least 44'' wide. I then laid out my border framing and masking panels in such a way that I should conservatively have plenty to wrap around and staple. (ie: 7'' strips to wrap the 3.25'' boards, etc.)

It looks like everything is going to fit with plenty of leftover material for wrapping the inside of my DIY prism lens enclosure! The only thing I'm wondering about is whether I should make sure there is enough material for the masking panels to "completely" wrap them, like a pillow case or a Christmas present. It won't matter when they're on the screen, but it might look nicer when they're laying off to the side if there isn't a rough white back side and ruffle-y stapled fabric..? Eh, that's probably just overcomplicating things.

I'm really getting anxious to start ordering parts and building this thing. Three more days until I'll have plenty of Lowes cards and power tools ;)

One final post while I'm here, a mock-up layout for my black velvet cutting.

I drew a big black rectangle to scale (in Visio) to represent 4 yards of the plush black velvet from Sy Fabrics which they say is at least 44'' wide. I then laid out my border framing and masking panels in such a way that I should conservatively have plenty to wrap around and staple. (ie: 7'' strips to wrap the 3.25'' boards, etc.)



Magius;
What I learned from doing mine and read in the MississippiMan's threads is try to not have too much excess overlap for the border, or you end up cutting the excess on the backside. My 1st one I was conservative and after stapling one side and starting the wrap I cut it so just 1" overlap. Just lesson learned from me. Less time cutting (actually ripping the velvet per MM), more time stapling and finishing.
Good luck and I'm sure you'll be using those gift cards on the 26th.

Thanks mtbdudex for the velvet tip, and having read MM's posts myself I agree 100%. I was only allocating the material conservatively for planning purposes to make sure I'd have enough, but when actually cutting I'll be going for "less is more".

For the record, today officially starts my build in the sense that the laminate has been ordered. No way I'm going to be Loganed! $88 + 6% tax from Lowes for a total of $93.28, and expected delivery on 01/07/09. I'm going to pick it up and measure it before placing the aluminum order, so that I'm 100% sure whether it's really 48'' or 49'' wide. So far everyone who has bought it claims 49'', but the last thing I want is to get the gimp piece that is 1'' too short for my frame.

I also ordered the industrial velcro to attach the laminate to the aluminum, and came across these interesting "non-stick" scissors for cutting velcro and other sticky things: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006HUJR6/ref=ord_cart_shr?_encoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance. I have no idea if they're useful or a complete crock, but I saw some decent reviews online... I've cut regular (non-industrial) velcro tape with regular scissors before and given the fact that I'll soon have 15' of industrial tape to cut through I figured I'd give these a shot. I've wasted $15 on worse things, and I'll let you all know how it turns out.

One final thing that I'm still having trouble deciding is how to attach the MDF base molding (ie: the screen trim) to the laminate. I'm still not sold on the idea of more velcro as it's relatively expensive and doesn't get a perfectly "flush" mating. I had considered embedding magnets in the molding instead, similar to my approach for holding the masking panels in place. I was thinking 1/4'' diameter magnets (because that's the largest drill bit I have :rolleyes:) by either 1/4'' or 1/8'' thick. Those would be small enough to embed in the 9/16'' (or was it 7/16''?) trim but I would need a lot of them to get enough pull to keep it in place. I would also need to add some steel or more magnets on the other side of the laminate for them to pull against. 1/8'' thickness magnets are $0.10 ea. and 1/4'' are $0.20 ea or $0.13 ea if I buy 150+. Even if I bought 150 of the beefier 1/4'' ones for $19.50 that's no more expensive than a box of velcro, and just think of all the fun stuff I could do with the leftovers!

The most obvious solution to this whole thing is just to take my new staple gun to the back side of the laminate and staple it into the MDF trim. That could be done before or after the velcro is applied to the back side of the laminate to attach it to the aluminum frame. Saves me from buying extra velcro or magnets, and the only loss is I can't easily remove the trim. Maybe this simple solution is really the best solution?

One last side note: between my fiance and I we raked in $455 in Lowes gift cards for Christmas! That ought to cover both this screen build and my future prism lens enclosure, so with tomorrow being "the big day" I'm really hoping we don't get any more :D

Hope everyone had a great Christmas and I'll be back to start posting pictures in the New Year!

I think if you put in 150 magnets in your screen/border you'd create such a magnetic field that the space-time continuum in your HT would be disrupted and upon turning on your PJ (with it's dark matter projection field) you'd create the worlds first worm hole device........:D

I think that sci-fi movie has already been made?

How about this as alternative for mounting your border, create a sandwich.
Attach the border via screw from backside, basically what I did.
Should work, and you could even make two of the top backside pine pieces into french cleats for hanging yoru screen at same time.
You'd need some hand clamps to hold the assy in place while you screw it.
(quick sketch via excel and drawing tools there)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FqTNmgNQHz8/SVjglj_DXjI/AAAAAAAADZs/ca8AdUbxghQ/s800/BorderAttachIdea.jpg

Woohoo I'm officially underway! My aluminum tubing just showed up tonight from Esto Connectors so I could finally start the screen build. I was pleasantly surprised by their final shipping cost as well, only $10 after they'd estimated $25-30. I borrowed my wife's camera and Flickr account so I could share the first pics.

First off a lovely shot of my laminate and tubing still boxed up next to one of my Infinity Alphas and SVS CS Ultras.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3320/3193243546_feed3a3042.jpg

Second, the tubing and connectors after being unboxed. Here I should mention that overall I'm impressed with the product and packing. I really like the black anodized finish, though that's personal taste, and the tubes were well protected from dings and scratches with tons of newspaper. You can only see about half of the newspaper in the pic, as a large portion of it is still in the box.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3361/3193243784_c079033023.jpg
As a side note, one of my dogs has gotten it in her brain since puppyhood that when I sit on the floor that must mean it's play time. As such you can see the multitude of toys she kept bringing for me wondering why I wasn't throwing them or playing tug of war. :D

Third, everything all laid out as I started assembly. For some reason my wife had a rubber mallet so that was a great stroke of luck.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3456/3193243884_4d9ab39f52.jpg
At this point I measured the tubes and realized that they were slightly long on one of my cuts. The 4 vertical tubes were cut to exactly 47'' as requested, but the 6 horizontal tubes were cut to 34 15/16 (34.9375''). I had asked that they be cut as close to 34.833 as possible, and had given 34 13/16 (34.8125) as my desired approximation if they couldn't guarantee tolerance beyond 16ths. Surprisingly they were an 8th of an inch off from that request, and my screen is about a third of an inch wider than I'd wanted now, but I guess that's nothing to cry about.

Finally, the finished assembled frame leaning up against what will hopefully be the future screen wall. Yeah it's not the best color for a screen wall, but that's not something I'm at liberty to change ;) With a good 3 1/4'' velvet border all around I'm sure I'll be fine, even if we won't have the "floating screen" effect. The chandelier in the picture will obviously be removed long before a projector ever goes up, but for now it works well to light my big open work area at night. Final frame dimensions are 49 1/16'' x 108 15/16'' to eventually become a 110'' diagonal scope screen.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3459/3192398103_24a454c841.jpg

Again, as far as the aluminum frame product goes I'm very happy with it. It's plenty rigid and extremely light. The inside of the tubes are ribbed to really grab the nylon connectors, and the connectors are sized well such that they aren't going to come out easily after banging them in with the mallet. This is as opposed to another company who on their quote noted that their tubing and connectors are designed to be easily removable thus there would be some slop or play at the joints. That really had me nervous but fortunately there's nothing like that with the Esto Connectors.

Up next will be cutting the laminate to size and then breaking out the industrial Velcro and "non-stick" Velcro cutting scissors. I'll be sure to leave a review of those once I get to it. Hopefully I'll get a chance to work on this more during the week but much of it might wind up being weekend projects. Man it feels good to finally be getting started!

Looks good, I didn't realize you could get these in a black finish. Good luck with the rest of the screen build.

All of the companies I inquired at except one were able to quote me a price for anodizing the aluminum black instead of clear. The price difference ranged from ~$0.50 per linear foot, to more than doubling the cost of the tubes. I think it comes down to whether a company stocks the tubing in different finishes or has to send them out to be anodized when they're custom ordered. In any case, you can check back on the first page of this thread where I posted the quoted prices from each company for clear and black tubing. Hopefully someone will find that information useful, as I seem to be the first one to go with black tubes for the frame.

The other alternative was to buy a can or two of black spray paint, but the amount of time and effort that would go into painting normal tubes black was really putting me off as oposed to investing an extra $15 into the project. Now I can't wait to get home tonight and hopefully have enough time to lay out the laminate and start scoring.

Well phase two of the screen build took place last night, and so far so good. I took a bunch more pictures (probably too many) so here goes:

First the laminate unboxed/unrolled in the work area.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3521/3203822236_9770ab1d3b.jpg

I measured and marked a cut line then clamped the laminate between two halves of a 2x4. I used some crummy hand towels to protect the top side of the laminate from the wood, even though the border being added later should cover up any accidents.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3515/3202972279_64886edefb.jpg

My method was to score with a utility knife on the top side of the laminate, then press down to break it. Admittedly I rushed this stage, as I knew that a perfect line wasn't necessary and would later be covered. Even still, it came out OK and was remarkably easy and quick. The jaggies left on the "good" side of the laminate were able to be cut off later for a pretty clean edge, and if I really wanted to I could take a dremel or some sandpaper to it to really smooth things up.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3080/3203822352_ea63852156.jpg

Here's after finishing the cut but before cutting off the leftover jaggies:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3457/3203822388_21df74b4a4.jpg

And now we break for a mini review of the Fiskars Non-Stick Scissors. As I mentioned earlier, I decided to try these out for cutting the Velcro. Their blades are black as they're coated in the same Teflon coating as your pots and pans. In one word all I can say is these things are amazing. I flew through the Velcro just like it was paper. Part way through I figured something must be different about this Velcro and other Velcro I've cut in the past with regular scissors, because there was just no resistance at all. I whipped out a pair of normal scissors to try and progress quickly came to a halt. The biggest difference was that regular scissors could only cut about an inch at a time in the part of the blade closest to your hands. If you tried to cut more the Velcro would just fold itself in half over the blade. The Fiskars could cut almost all the way out to the tip of the blades. That's less stress on the hands cutting more with each motion. Secondly the regular scissors started feeling "gunky" after only about 5-10 cut motions. The Fiskars were great for about 20 feet of Velcro, and then I started noticing a tad more resistance. There was no visible gunk on the blades, but for the heck of it I wiped them with a wet sponge and then a dry towel and started again. That procedure left them as good as when I first opened them. So are the scissors worth the $15 I spent on them...? I don't know, that's quite a bit of money for a pair of scissors. With that said, if cutting Velcro frustrates the heck out of you, and like me you don't mind spending a tad more for an easy way out, these definitely work as advertised.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3371/3203822464_7b7ea06230.jpg

Alright now that that's over with we move on to attaching the Velcro strips to the back of the laminate.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3078/3202972433_f6ab815322.jpg

I was using old comforters to try and keep as much dog hair from the floor away from the screen and Velcro as possible, but my efforts were completely futile. One of my little stinkers even found his way into the corner of the photo! In any case, once the Velcro was prepared I had my wife help me lift the frame down onto the laminate and eureka. It's a screen:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/3203822542_3f1e362638.jpg

So my to-do list for today is as follows:
1.) Pick up base molding from Lowes, cut to size and miter it.
2.) Cut some strips of pine to use in mtbdudex's "sandwiching" approach for holding the molding to the screen, and miter a few as cleats for hanging.
3.) Test my magnetic masking attachment and determine how many magnets I need and where to install them on the back side of the laminate.
4.) Build my masking panels from the Foamcore sheets and embed magnets inside.
5.) Call a few forum sponsors and try to order a projector ;)

If I can get all of that done then I just have to wait for my SyFabrics order to show up so I can do the velvet wrapping next weekend.

Looking good, so next weekend is the border task?
I borrowed about 18 hand clamps from 4 guys at work and had all 4 borders clamped and confirmed them prior to shooting screws.
Hopefully that goes smooth for you.
I bet you can't wait to post some screen shots when all done!

Use a tripod and get it centered height/width, my 1st screen shots were done off centered by hand and looked bad.

btw, you will "beat me" to the manual masking, so I'll see how yours comes out.
4.) Build my masking panels from the Foamcore sheets and embed magnets inside.

regards,
Mike

Alright. Much has happened since I last posted, but I'm saving posting more pictures of the build until I can take a few more and tell a better story. I'll quickly run down the "to-do" list from last time though.

1.) Pick up base molding from Lowes, cut to size and miter it.
Done. Pictures to follow as this represented my first "mistake" of the build.
2.) Cut some strips of pine to use in mtbdudex's "sandwiching" approach for holding the molding to the screen, and miter a few as cleats for hanging.
Cut the pine strips, but no cleats yet.
3.) Test my magnetic masking attachment and determine how many magnets I need and where to install them on the back side of the laminate.
Done. 2 pairs of magnets were plenty to hold a 600sq.in. x 3/8'' sheet of foamcore to the screen. Thus 4 pairs should hold 2 sheets, and finally we need to include the velvet weight.
4.) Build my masking panels from the Foamcore sheets and embed magnets inside.
Done. Pictures to follow. I decided to embed 8 magnets between my two 3/8'' foam panels allowing me to use as many as I feel necessary later behind the screen. 8 pairs should be crazy overkill but you only get to glue magnets between foam sheets once ;)
5.) Call a few forum sponsors and try to order a projector
Done. A fantastic experience with ProjectorPeople. More to follow on that as well.

So with that out of the way the only thing I'm waiting on is my velvet to show up so I can wrap everything and finish off the screen. However, I couldn't help firing up the new PJ to see what it looked like with and without the prisms in place. I'm going to post some photos of test images in DVE where I was checking convergence. Please let me know what you guys think about them. Note this is just out of the box no calibration whatsoever, and the PJ is just sitting on a table roughly in the center of the screen. I didn't even bother to ensure it was square and perpendicular. :o

So the first image of the pixel clock test pattern:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3387/3216011725_11c0911d6a.jpg
Second image of the left side of the red box in the middle right:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3114/3216864910_ddca17026d.jpg
Third image of the left side of the gray box in the middle left:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3374/3216864952_45f1d36ef8.jpg
And now two images from the geometry test pattern. The reason these are interesting is it would appear the vertical lines are almost spot-on and razor sharp on the right hand side of the screen, but then a tad off and fuzzy on the left hand side.
Right Side:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3306/3216011903_d02f990257.jpg
Left Side:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3399/3216865040_9c3d2ffdfe.jpg

Does anyone think this difference could be related to the positioning of the PJ and screen? Like I said I didn't make any effort to make sure I was centered and perpendicular; I just pointed in the screen's direction and shot...

Based on all of the above pictures does anyone think convergence (or something else) is a problem? There is definitely evidence of a couple pixels worth of "ghosting" in the horizontal direction, but as there doesn't appear to be much color breakup I'm not sure if that's a convergence issue or something else. When calibrating my dad's 60'' SXRD this "ghosting" looked just about the same or even a tiny bit worse than this and still makes a beautiful picture, so am I worrying too much about the details? I just want to make sure that I have nothing major to worry about within my 4 lamp-hour trial period :D. Thanks!

No opinions on the convergence pics eh? Oh well, I actually re-ran those test patterns tonight with the prisms in the light path and convergence, chromatic aberration and focus really weren't that bad. They definitely weren't perfect, but on anything but a test pattern it shouldn't be noticeable.

In any case, it's time to update everyone on how my project has come along. First lets start with the masking panels. Here's a shot of me with my exacto knife cutting my 20x30'' foam boards to size:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3356/3233087938_6128b27580.jpg

And here's the results of that cutting:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3098/3232240013_f7a7461343.jpg

The plan was to sandwich magnets between two pieces of 3/16'' foam as shown in the next picture. The resulting panel would be just under a half inch which should match well with my 1/2'' MDF base borders. I also needed longer than the 30'' board I started with, so the sandwich seemed like the strongest way to get a ~42'' piece to stay together.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3508/3233088098_ee7d35038a.jpg

Originally I used Super 77 spray on the recommendation of this forum to adhere the foam together, but unfortunately my 1/8'' magnets were too thick. 1/16'' magnets would probably be fine, but mine stressed the foam enough to overcome the adhesive and the sides/corners kept peeling apart. I went around the edges with some scotch tape to keep them down and then after a good velvet wrap I was done:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3534/3232240413_7ca92aab86.jpg

In the future, I would have saved the $10 and just gone with scotch tape from the beginning. Nobody can see what's under the velvet anyway, and the tape is much stronger than the spray adhesive. Also, while I embedded eight magnets inside each panel it was only necessary to affix 4 magnets behind the screen (one in each corner) to hold up a panel. No big deal wasting the eight magnets, but lessons learned...

One more post is on the way as commercial breaks allow ;)

Alright for the next installment we have the screen border. I didn't take as many pictures through this process, but primarily I wanted to describe what went wrong and how I fixed it, in case anyone else runs into similar problems.

This first picture shows one of my mitered border pieces. This wasn't the clamping arrangement I used when I actually made the cuts (although in retrospect maybe it should have been) I was actually just sanding along the cuts and the sharp point when this was taken. Do notice in the picture that the only available tools are a circular saw, combination square, pencil, and of course eye/ear protection.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3477/3232240115_74e29dc480.jpg

Now once I had cut the four border pieces and did a test fit I was pretty disappointed in my work. Cutting along the square with my circular saw hadn't left me with the perfectly mitered 45 degree cuts I'd expected. The bottom left and top right corners came out alright, but the other two were just plain bad. What can I say, I made it clear in an earlier post I had no skill with power tools, so it could have been worse :rolleyes:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3343/3233088058_614ee054ed.jpg
I didn't want to have to re-buy $20-30 worth of wood and try my luck again, so instead I bought some modeling clay for $1 at the craft store and used about 1/4 of it to mold my own corners. I left the two short pieces alone as they appeared to be alright and just created a false corner to match them on each end of the long boards. Once wrapped with velvet nobody will know the difference, unless they start poking at my corners and realize they aren't quite as hard as wood :o.

So, I hate to jump so far ahead, but I didn't take any pictures during the velvet wrapping process. That whole experience was a pain in the neck, as I chose to use scissors to cut the fabric. "Ripping" just wasn't working for me, and the scissors wouldn't even try to cut a straight line. In any case, the four border pieces with their new false corners turned out nicely once wrapped:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3445/3232240223_7977545677.jpg
I cut some strips from a 1x4 and screwed through them from the back to sandwich the laminate between the strips and the border pieces. Unfortunately again I didn't take any pictures that night, but it holds the borders in place exactly as suggested by mtbdudex. Thanks!

In combination with the magnetic masking panels from my prior post we create a 16x9 screen for watching HDTV.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3398/3232240251_417762c7fe.jpg

Finally, after cutting some french cleats and using them to hang the screen I'm just about ready to call this project done.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3421/3232240347_1b1bc64efd.jpg

I'll get around to posting screenshots of the Panny in action after I get it ceiling mounted and calibrated. For now I'll say I'm very happy with the picture from it sitting on my coffee table with and without the prisms. I've done some testing during the afternoon and we do have to close our curtains but from about 14' away the image seems plenty bright. My biggest remaining concern is whether prism reflections will end up falling on the screen once I'm all done. Right now with no enclosure and untreated prism faces there are reflections all over the room, including on the screen. I'm sure 95% of those will go away when I actually build the lens box, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

And for tonight's final installment a sneak peak at my progress mounting the projector to the ceiling.

First up we have the mystery box:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3461/3233088198_93ab1f169c.jpg
What is it you might ask? Well, it's what I decided to mount the projector to. What I did is cut a 1/2'' 2ft.x2ft. board to just under 22 and 3/4'' on one side. This allowed the board to just barely squeeze between two of my ceiling trusses in the attic. I also cut two pieces of 2x4 to 24'' long and screwed them on to this board from the bottom. Once I trekked this contraption into my attic and cleared away a patch of insulation I was able to just squeeze it down on top of the drywall and screw sideways into both the 2x4 and existing ceiling truss. This gives me a nice big area of solid wood support that I can screw up into for mounting the Panny and future lens enclosure. And on the bright side the wife doesn't have to see an ugly board like this screwed up into the trusses from inside the house. ;)

Now with that in the attic the second problem was identifying where exactly those trusses were on the ceiling. My first idea was to drill a small hole from the attic and go look for it, but the wife had a better (non-destructive) idea. Why not put some of my super magnets on either side of the truss in the attic and from below try to find where they stick. That sounded like a good idea, and little did either of us know we would wind up with this:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3428/3232240311_63475aaae3.jpg

Not only did I eventually find the magnets that I had placed in the attic (top 2 on the left, 2nd group of 2 on the right) but my magnets also found the nails that were used to attach the ceiling to the truss in the first place. That gave me a beautiful straight line to follow and know exactly where the wood was. My contraption above was secured between these two lines a particular distance from the fan, in fact that yellow pole was serving as a plumb line to mark where the center of the board was up in the attic. It extends about a foot in either direction parallel with the line of magnets so I know exactly where to put the mount.

That's all I have for now but I'm in no hurry to mount the projector until my 50' cables show up. I'm really hoping I don't have any issues with that length of HDMI (22ga) but I'll be using a Monoprice switch with built-in equalizer so hopefully that will help with signal strength. I'll be back with more info and hopefully some action screenshots this weekend.

Now once I had cut the four border pieces and did a test fit I was pretty disappointed in my work. Cutting along the square with my circular saw hadn't left me with the perfectly mitered 45 degree cuts I'd expected. The bottom left and top right corners came out alright, but the other two were just plain bad. What can I say, I made it clear in an earlier post I had no skill with power tools, so it could have been worse :rolleyes:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3343/3233088058_614ee054ed.jpg



I know is too late, but a miter box and a back saw would've done the job much better than a circular saw and angle square. Much safer too.

http://images.orgill.com/200x200/6087902.jpg

That's exactly what my dad said about the miter box. At least in the end my minor mistake didn't hurt much since $1 worth of clay took care of the problem. I'll always have to know that under the nice velvet is a hacked together corner made of clay, but only me, my wife, and the readers of this forum will be in on that secret.

Thank you for the tip anyway, and hopefully the next person to start a screen project will learn from my error.

Good write up and looks very nicely turned out.

Bet you'll be busy this weekend, hopefully done before Superbowl kickoff.

Looking fwd to screen shots, possibly of the game?

Magius,

How are you enjoying your new screen ?
Have you gotten your PJ mounted, just wondering ?
Great thread BTW !

John :D

Screen Picts Screen Picts

Show off what you made.

Wow it's been forever since I've posted here! I'm sure I'll only disappoint as I still don't have "action" shots of the screen, but I do have an old batch of pictures that never got uploaded. My wife's point and shoot just can't take a good picture of the screen given the extreme brightness and pitch black background, so my plan was to wait until I bought a new camera. Now I'm stuck waiting to see if Panasonic announces an FZ38 model later this month ;)

In any case, let's give you some more pictures! When we last left off I showed you the mystery box and the lines of magnets marking the mounting location. Now here's a view from inside the attic, after the installation was finished.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2477/3707578151_f0bbcebb1b.jpg
There was an electric cable running through the center of the right edge of the picture to the center of the bottom edge, so you can see I spliced into it and added a box, then added an outlet just above it to plug a UPS into. The projector power cable plugs into the UPS and you can see it diving into the insulation along with the large video cables at the top of the pic.

None of that's very exciting though, so here's a couple of pictures of the lens I designed. This is obviously a standard dual prism lens, nothing original about it. I was originally going to make the enclosure out of wood, but my dad offered to use some scrap aluminum from his A/C business. He even had some white aluminum which is the color my wife wanted me to paint the box. These are the plans I drew up and sent him, hoping for the best:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2675/3707601121_993a1688a9.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3456/3707601139_a078180288.jpg
And this is what I got back from him!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2641/3708388638_88bbb2119e.jpg
Boy was I psyched! I was amazed how well my dad did, even folding over the edges so I don't slice off a finger. The top edge of the bottom piece (upper left in photo) folds down and then back up forming a channel to hold the top cover. It's a snug fit so no chance of the cover sliding off, etc. My dad really outdid himself IMHO, and this was by far a better result than my woodworking skills could ever have produced :D. It's much lighter and less obtrusive on the ceiling too, everybody wins! The aluminum was a little "dirty" or scuffed when I first got it (heck it was scrap after all) but a couple coats of spray paint covered that right up. After taking a drill and jigsaw to the appropriate places we have ourselves a nice little lens enclosure. This was still before the pain, hence the obvious smudge on top:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2487/3708388658_f9a2a0a442.jpg
Now of course, what you've all really been waiting so patiently to see is pictures of the finished product, so we'll wrap up with a couple of pictures of the PJ and lens mounted to the ceiling. First we have a side shot:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2654/3708388692_3ceed20037.jpg
The ceiling box is a double gang with an electrical socket on one half and a simple pass-through on the other half. The video cables come right through without having to use keystone inserts or some other kind of coupler in the box.
Finally, here's the closest thing I can give you to an action shot:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2622/3707578123_8cd24096ec.jpg
I know that's little more than a tease, but like I said my wife's camera just can't get a picture of the screen in action. The ISO noise is absurd in the dark conditions, and there are no exposure controls to play with to salvage a decent shot. I promise I won't let you down though. We'll see what Panasonic announces for cameras and if there's no FZ38 I'll be picking up an FZ28 and getting some good shots. I hope you guys enjoyed the long overdue update. My work schedule has been a bear and I'm barely finding time to read the forums, much lest post, but if all goes well that should be over soon. Thanks!

Magius,

How did you attach the wooden border to your AL frame ?

Thanks for your great thread about your build!

How has your DIY A-lense work out ? Your dad could make some money building those lense boxes I bet, how much ?

I may have missed this point, how did you attach your DW to the AL frame ?


John :D

HDGTX,
I apologize for not responding for so long. I haven't been browsing the DIY CIH forum in quite some time :eek:. I've actually be hanging out about the HTPC forum (rebuilding my old media server this month) and digging up acoustic panel info around the net (thinking another DIY project might be in my future...)

In any case, the DW laminate was attached to the frame with industrial strength velcro. I do have a couple pictures up there of the 2" velcro being cut in half to make 1" strips, the size of the aluminum. Alternatively they sell 3/4" strips, but I was paranoid and wanted a whole 1" wide for strength.

To answer your other question about attaching the wooden border, I placed some scrap wood behind the laminate and screwed through from behind right into the wooden borders. You have to be careful not to screw in too far so you don't come through the front (or just buy the right size screws instead of using what you have laying around!), but it makes a nice "laminate sandwich" holding everything in place and can't be seen once mounted flush to the wall. I attached a crude picture showing what I'm talking about.

Finally, my A-lens has really worked out great. Even without a sled, the squeeze mode on my PJ works great for standard HDTV in 16:9. The system really rocks though in its 2.4:1 glory. My dad's enclosure was the true icing on the cake, as I never could have built anything close to that nice out of wood. I'd like to think my nicely drawn plans had something to do with the outcome, but really he deserves all the credit. Who would have thought a coat of paint on some cleverly-folded scrap aluminum would turn out so nicely.

In any case, browsing around back here reminded me that I never did get around to posting shots of the screen in action! It just so happens the wife bought me the FZ35 camera I wanted for my birthday and I'm playing hooky from work tomorrow. Maybe I'll just take a few snaps this weekend and try to remember her photobucket password, or was it flikr? :confused: eh... we'll figure something out.

Wow it's been forever since I've posted here! I'm sure I'll only disappoint as I still don't have "action" shots of the screen, but I do have an old batch of pictures that never got uploaded. My wife's point and shoot just can't take a good picture of the screen given the extreme brightness and pitch black background, so my plan was to wait until I bought a new camera. Now I'm stuck waiting to see if Panasonic announces an FZ38 model later this month ;)

In any case, let's give you some more pictures! When we last left off I showed you the mystery box and the lines of magnets marking the mounting location. Now here's a view from inside the attic, after the installation was finished.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2477/3707578151_f0bbcebb1b.jpg
There was an electric cable running through the center of the right edge of the picture to the center of the bottom edge, so you can see I spliced into it and added a box, then added an outlet just above it to plug a UPS into. The projector power cable plugs into the UPS and you can see it diving into the insulation along with the large video cables at the top of the pic.

None of that's very exciting though, so here's a couple of pictures of the lens I designed. This is obviously a standard dual prism lens, nothing original about it. I was originally going to make the enclosure out of wood, but my dad offered to use some scrap aluminum from his A/C business. He even had some white aluminum which is the color my wife wanted me to paint the box. These are the plans I drew up and sent him, hoping for the best:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2675/3707601121_993a1688a9.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3456/3707601139_a078180288.jpg
And this is what I got back from him!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2641/3708388638_88bbb2119e.jpg
Boy was I psyched! I was amazed how well my dad did, even folding over the edges so I don't slice off a finger. The top edge of the bottom piece (upper left in photo) folds down and then back up forming a channel to hold the top cover. It's a snug fit so no chance of the cover sliding off, etc. My dad really outdid himself IMHO, and this was by far a better result than my woodworking skills could ever have produced :D. It's much lighter and less obtrusive on the ceiling too, everybody wins! The aluminum was a little "dirty" or scuffed when I first got it (heck it was scrap after all) but a couple coats of spray paint covered that right up. After taking a drill and jigsaw to the appropriate places we have ourselves a nice little lens enclosure. This was still before the pain, hence the obvious smudge on top:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2487/3708388658_f9a2a0a442.jpg
Now of course, what you've all really been waiting so patiently to see is pictures of the finished product, so we'll wrap up with a couple of pictures of the PJ and lens mounted to the ceiling. First we have a side shot:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2654/3708388692_3ceed20037.jpg
The ceiling box is a double gang with an electrical socket on one half and a simple pass-through on the other half. The video cables come right through without having to use keystone inserts or some other kind of coupler in the box.
Finally, here's the closest thing I can give you to an action shot:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2622/3707578123_8cd24096ec.jpg
I know that's little more than a tease, but like I said my wife's camera just can't get a picture of the screen in action. The ISO noise is absurd in the dark conditions, and there are no exposure controls to play with to salvage a decent shot. I promise I won't let you down though. We'll see what Panasonic announces for cameras and if there's no FZ38 I'll be picking up an FZ28 and getting some good shots. I hope you guys enjoyed the long overdue update. My work schedule has been a bear and I'm barely finding time to read the forums, much lest post, but if all goes well that should be over soon. Thanks!

Magius,
I see that you are using Panny PJ together with a DIY A-lens. Have you tried Panny's zoom method and compared both?
Thanks,
Wojtek

Hi Magius,
Thanks so much for the info & drawing ! Great thread.

How are the prisms held in place inside that great box your father built for you? Maybe he could build more for other AVS'ers.

John :D

VirTERM,
I have not tried the zoom method, sorry. I researched the pros/cons of zoom vs. lens, and not meaning to start a flame war or anything but I decided the lens method was what I was looking for. Also, because of PJ placement I cannot use the Panny's lens memory function alone for the zoom method, I would still have to adjust vertical shift manually each time and I know the wife wouldn't go for that. I couldn't justify a ton of money for a lens this time around, but for $50 worth of trophy shop prisms, some leftover velvet and some scrap aluminum we're talking my language ;)

HDGTX,
My box design is a 99.99% direct rip-off of what I call the "Zuggsoft" design. You can read about it here: http://www.zuggsoft.com/theater/prism.htm. The prisms are held in place by countersinking a screw into a thin sheet of plexglass and the epoxying the plexiglass "upside down" to the top and bottom prism faces. The link explains the whole design and construction process in detail with pictures. The author/designer further credits Mark Techer (CAVX, Aussiemorphic) among others so in the end I don't know who I ripped off, but it definitely wasn't an original concept. My only change was to build the box out of aluminum instead of wood to keep it lighter and smaller. I wouldn't have been able to do that had it not been for my dad's job, but sometimes you get lucky I guess.

Speaking of that, unfortunately there's no way I'd be able to have him make more boxes for you guys. He works at a very small A/C shop and was using their machines to cut and bend the metal, plus it was just scrap they had lying around from other jobs. It took a while to get a piece long enough to cut the U-bracket for the ceiling mount for example. In any case, business has been pretty bad this year and the shop may be shutting down soon. I don't know what aluminum is supposed to cost had it not been scrap, but you could always try taking plans like mine to local A/C shops or other metal workers and see if they can do something for you. Wish I could be of more help.

Great job on the screen and lens. Can you advise what size trophy prisms you used? Thanks.

loma,
Thank you for the compliment. I used the 4"x6" size prisms to keep the size and weight of the box down. However, looking at the light beam from the projector it seems like it just barely fits in the outermost face of the 2nd prism. I did not measure as carefully as I should have before buying, so the lack of wiggle room made it harder to align the prisms just right, but I guess I got lucky in the end. I definitely recommend measuring the PJ spread with a piece of paper held up in front to see how large a prism face you'll need...

Also, I just snapped a few pictures of the screen and I'm working on getting them into flikr, so check back in about a half hour if you want to see the finished product.

Thanks Magius. Will check out the finished product. I am using AE3000 on a
10ft 2.37:1 screen.

Alright here they are! I hope these photos can do the system justice. As a side note, my camera grossly over exaggerated how dark the room is due to the bright screen. Even with all my blinds and curtains closed my room is fairly bright during the day, and these were taken at around 12:30pm. I can only wish my room was half as dark as the camera makes it out to be...

These photos were all taken from the main seating position about 15 feet from the screen. They weren't edited except for being scaled down to 20% of original size for web hosting. The camera was 6-8" higher than my eyeballs would normally be, but apart from that it should be seeing what you would see sitting on my couch. The camera was not (intentionally) moved between any of the photos, so they should be directly comparable to each other in terms of size/impact/whatever.

I thought I'd start small with a basic shot of Lost from my HTPC, showing what HDTV looks like with the masking panels in place. This gives me about an 86" image for TV watching.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2782/4176400485_884a409157_o.png

Next, I wouldn't be a true A/V enthusiast without a couple shots from The Fifth Element. First with the masking panels still on and the PJ still in squeeze mode for TV watching:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2698/4176400739_1a93e3c82f_o.png
That's what I'd be stuck watching without the lens ;)

Now the same frame after removing the masking panels and toggling the PJ back to its native AR:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4176401065_ed4297fe21_o.png
Could there be a better argument for a scope screen? I love it! In case anyone notices, the reason you can't see the pause symbol is because it's obscured in the black velvet border. I keep my PJ zoomed just enough into the border to hide any pincusion, which in this case hides the pause icon as well.

By now I imagine you guys are tired of looking at the big black emptiness of my equipment space under the screen, so for the rest of the pictures I've cropped that portion out. I just wanted it there as a size reference for the first three pictures so you could compare native 16:9 to 2.4:1 in a 16:9 frame to native 2.4:1.

For the final pictures we have one last pic from the Fifth Element and two from Kung Fu Panda. I wanted to show both some bright scenes (like the above) and some darker scenes here, so this staple shot seemed a good choice:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4009/4176460431_b3f615ef26_o.png
I'm not sure why it looks a little fuzzy, particularly on the left hand side. I probably should have tried for a better picture, but I was just trying to get some quick snaps and post them. No hidden agenda for perfection here!

Moving on to Kung Fu Panda, I grabbed one bright scene and one dark again. I don't know why but I really love how this first one came out:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2676/4177219840_676c63a3ea_o.png
and here's the second one:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2762/4176460719_c52c218ed8_o.png

Well that's it! As I said I hope the pictures do the system justice. I apologize that they've been so long in coming but at least we got here eventually. Please let me know what you guys think.

Hello and great post, your set up looks awesome, and great job on the DIY A-lens, can you see if your dad would make a few of those boxes for some of us tool challenged DIY'ers.

Thanks

Nice DIY job on the a-lens, your whole set-up came together nicely.

Sweet screen shots also, KFP is a great reference movie.

Thank you both for the positive feedback. After about 3 weeks and almost 300 page views I was starting to wonder if anyone cared about the pictures anymore... Ah well, I brought it on myself by waiting a year to post them :D One good thing is that my brother should be coming to visit next month (finally!) so I can't wait to blow his socks off with a good demo. Some day when he gets his own house I may just have the chance to do this all over again.

Anyways, to repeat myself from a few posts ago, I'm unfortunately not going to be able to make and sell any aluminum lens boxes to anyone. As I mentioned, the material and tools/machinery belonged to my dad's employer, and while they don't mind us using some scrap for a personal project once in a blue moon, they wouldn't be so blind to turning over a dozen for profit. Keep in mind too that the "U-bracket" piece is ~37" long before folding to shape, and it's almost 16" long after folding, so it would be a lot of metal to make and require a good sized box (about 16"x7"x5") to ship the finished pieces. I didn't ask my dad what the metal would cost if it weren't scrap, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be economical to build these things "for real" once you figure in labor, shipping, etc. Plus all of that is ignoring the fact that we don't have permission in the first place. My recommendation is either make friends with a local machinist or follow the Zuggsoft plans with wood: http://www.zuggsoft.com/theater/prism.htm. Sorry!