I have a house with a walkout basement. I was thinking I had a sump pit, and was planning to add a pump to protect against water intrusion. We had a plumber in for other reasons, and my wife found this out:

Well, turns out we don't have a sump pit. Its sewage drainage if we were to finish the bath. Plumber said that it doesn't have a sump pit because it's a walk-out basement most likely. (Nathan [the builder] isn't here with them). Anyway, he could put a pump in but then we wouldn't be able to finish the bathroom. If they were to do it there, they would have to make it where it drains out the back because of the garage. I'll get his contact info if we want to look into the possibility of creating a sump pit or something.

On further discussion, she learned:

Okay, spoke to him a little more about it. He said estimate around $350 to do it +labor for doing the pipes for the drains in the current hole. I asked him about doing the bathroom down the road and he said an option would be to cut a square in the foundation, dig down, and set in a bucket to catch the water table if it were to rise. Sounds like for now at least, we can do the sump pump.

This brings up two questions in my mind:

1. Are there normally no sump pumps in walkout basements? The place is new, and its been dry, but its partially finished, and in time I'd like to add a theater and a bath. Seemed like a logical thing to add, is this unnecessary?

2. Given that I am likely to add a bath in the future, seems like perhaps I shouldn't use the existing hole? Is there any science to placing these things? I think they are placed on the perimeter of the house to tie in to the french drains, correct? If so, do people suspect the drains run around the garage? They did excavate my garage (then filled it - not sure if that makes sense, but my foundation walls run up for the space under the garage, but there is no basement space there), not sure how they would design the french drains in that case.

That said, here is a layout of my place:

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/HT%20-%20v2/untitled-2.jpg

In the unfinished space, D-1 is where the bath is roughed. D-2 is a logical place to add a basement bedroom. I don't plan to add one (if I add the HT, I need some storage), but it has a full sized window for egress, so adding the pit at spot #3 might be a future albatross. The middle D area has the furnace, hot water heater, and a few other things. Spot #2 would be beside the furnace, but is adjacent to the garage which makes me wonder if it is a useful place for a sump pit.

Any thoughts?

I have a walkout and also a sump pump.

I think it's necessary as the walk out side of the basement is the only part not partially underground.
the rest of the basement is either underground or partially.

does your yard slope from front to back? meaning, the front of the house the land is higher than the back of the house? it's usually that way for walkout basements.

I'm guessing the front of your basement (front portion of the house) is completely underground or mostly underground and it gradually decreases as it moves to the front?

the builder put a corrugated pipe around the perimeter of the house that drains into my pump.
The pump is located on the side of those, opposite of the garage, but I think it's located there b/c that is closer towards the bottom of the slope.
(my house slopes on a diagonal front to back.)

My pump rarely goes off, and I mean rarely, even with the strongest rain storms it may go off once or not at all; but my nextdoor neighbors (who also has a walkout) goes off all the time. I'm guessing it's b/c my house is elevated compared to his and the slope go towards his house.

So check your lot and see if your neighbors house slopes towards yours.

I do recommend it, and now is the time to do it (during the construction phase (as it's easier).

and for my garage, they also excavated and then filled in the dirt.
Old.

I have a builder installed sump pump system on my Full daylight walkout basement.

Not only does it run during heavy rains and snow melt but the two air conditioners and the humidifier drain into the pit and are pumped out. When I first moved in I thought the sump ran a lot after a rain and I put in underground drain pipes that the gutter down spouts empty into and take it far down hill from my house. After that the sump ran a LOT less.

Ok - that confirms there is nothing special about a walkout that would absolve it from having a pump. Thanks Old + Jeff.

For context, it is a normal walkout, with the front higher than the back (taken during construction, we are in now):

From the garage side:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/PA%20House/DSC_1353.jpg

From the rear (the last window looks into the utility room):

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/PA%20House/DSC_1358.jpg

Oh, and on exterior, I am planning to run my gutters into the ground and down the hill as far from my house as reasonable. I got a quote from a landscaper the other day, which I am still working through some other plans as well. Outdoor projects are the biggest competition to the HT budget.

Just another validating data point ... I have a typical walk-out as described and it has sump pump that pumps out to the back yard.

This is the exact reason why when we build our next house I'm building slab on grade. I am so sick of sump pumps and gorund water. BTW--looks like you have a nice house.

On the underground piping, you may try to add a catch basin for all the runoff. If you have the piping running to a lot line some jurisdictions require it. It's basically to keep the thousand of gallons of water running off your roof during a storm from ending up in your neighbors basement as well. Or if can tap into the cities storm sewer line then you have it made.

Just another thought on the sump issue. To be effective the original drain system around the perimeter of the house needs to direct water to the sump . It's not clear how you can accomplish this after the fact without a big REDO.

As for the ground water rising enough to be a problem I'm not a civil engineer but looking at the slope of your land in the picture and what appears to be a natural drainage ravine, if the water table rose it would be coming out the slope behind your house and be carried away.

It would be a good idea to talk to your neighbors along that ravine and see what experience they have had with their basements.

The grade for our walkout basement is similar to DCPilgram's. We do not have a sump pump. Like BIG said, I'm comfortable that there should be no up pressure from the water table. There is an easier opportunity for water, just pouring downhill.

agreed. Your contractor should have put in slotted drain tile around the perimeter of the foundation and tiled it to a sump pit. That is standard practice around here. About 4inches of pea gravels then the tile coverage in fabric to keep silt out and then move gravel. Not to mention I have about 6 inches of gravel under our foundation floor..all of which is tiled into our sump pit.

Thanks guys.

This is the exact reason why when we build our next house I'm building slab on grade. I am so sick of sump pumps and gorund water. BTW--looks like you have a nice house.

On the underground piping, you may try to add a catch basin for all the runoff. If you have the piping running to a lot line some jurisdictions require it. It's basically to keep the thousand of gallons of water running off your roof during a storm from ending up in your neighbors basement as well. Or if can tap into the cities storm sewer line then you have it made.

Thanks - but where will you put the HT w/o a basement ;)? Interesting point on the neighbors - I think I am okay, for reasons below.

Just another thought on the sump issue. To be effective the original drain system around the perimeter of the house needs to direct water to the sump . It's not clear how you can accomplish this after the fact without a big REDO.

That gives me something to think about.

The grade for our walkout basement is similar to DCPilgram's. We do not have a sump pump. Like BIG said, I'm comfortable that there should be no up pressure from the water table. There is an easier opportunity for water, just pouring downhill.

Our space does drop towards the back of the house, to a V, then there is a retention pond a few houses down. The word is that the developer (my builder just buys lots) is going to add more fill to my backyard at some point, along with a big honking pipe.

Here is a basic map of my 'hood:

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/PA%20House/untitled5.jpg

In theory I should be able to run water to my backyard w/o hurting anyone, then tie into the overall system to feed the retention pond. The point of confusion is that the fill and pipe haven't been added yet.

Thanks guys.
Thanks - but where will you put the HT w/o a basement ;)? Interesting point on the neighbors - I think I am okay, for reasons below.


Over the garage or more than likely in a separate wing of the new house. High ceilings 3 or 4 tiers of seating........oh the dream

I have built four houses in the past 22 years, two with walkout basements. Neither walkout had a sump pump with no leakage or any other water problem. Both houses were perimeter tiled and the poured walls sealed. One house was on a 5 acre pond in Indiana with clay soil, the current one is on a 1050 acre lake in Michigan on sandy soil. The tile drained into the pond or lake. If the basement is properly tiled and sealed you should have no problem. Downspouts are tiled and drained either to the pond or lake. Both basements have bathrooms, the Indiana house did not require a lift station, the Michigan house does have one due to the plumbing configuration.

BobK

I am starting to lean towards skipping the sump pump. I am not building anything till spring at the earliest, so I have time to change my mind a couple more times.

My builder just started excavating for a new house across the street from me, so I am going to see if I can observe what they do. So far there haven't been a lot of discussion of basements flooding in my immediate vicinity. But the houses are pretty new 0-3 years old in our phase.

I am going to reinforce my water control plans to ensure that I have good exterior drainage, and that water from the gutters is nowhere near the house.

Thanks for the input all. I am no builder, and I didn't stay at a holiday express either.

It is actually code here that all new houses must have a sump pit. Does not mean you have to have a pump just the hole in the foundation floor pre-cut

I have a pit w/ a pump in my walkout daylight with is fed by the footer drains in the front of my house the pump then ties into the downspout and water is pumped 150 feet away from the foundation into a swale that feeds into a pond.

Also, as mentioned by someone above, my AC & Dehumidifier/humidifiers attached to the HVAC also funnel their waste into the pit as well. It runs pretty often but I've never had any type of dampness outside of the pit.

It's my opinion that if you have the chance to have one installed (and it seems pretty cheaply) I'd have it added. You may never need it and hopefully you won't but if for some reason you get water in the basement you'll be kicking yourself when it has no where to go.

The $350 is if I cannibalize the rough in for the bath. I assume if I cut in to foundation for a new pit it will be more. I'll definitely spend more on quality pumps if I do it. Now you have me thinking the other way. I'll plan to talk to my builder and see if I can get a sense of where the low point is in the perimeter drain. . . .

My sump pump only kicks in when the ground get really really saturated. At that point the tubes that run around the perimeter of the foundation and the tubes that run below my foundation dump into the sump well/hole. It's all part of a system to keep the basement dry. If i had the choice, assuming I didn't live in a desert, I would have the system installed. It's not something that can easily be put in later.

My house is halfway down a hill. The houses lower on the hill have flooding issues during hard rain storms. My pump may fire once or twice a year. But when it does is pulls a huge amount of water away from the foundation.

Our sump pump never runs but I'm pretty sure code requires them here too. It's in the corner of the basement and you can see where we covered it up and made it into a little seat/table.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15255233#post15255233

Tom

We’ve got a walk out with a sump that is connected to drain tubing around/under the perimeter of the foundation. The pump has never run and you can still see the drywall dust from the construction of the house at the bottom of the sump.

That said, our next door neighbor (also a walkout) has their sump run at least once or twice a day.

If you’ve lived in the place through a spring or two, you should have a good feel for how much water you get in the basement.

Also, unless you actually have drain tile/tubing around your foundation, a sump pump won’t really do anything more meaningful than running a shop vac will. Namely, if a strong storm hits and your pump is just pumping water out that has already run to the low part of the floor, your carpets and whatnot are already going to be wet, whether you have an installed sump pump or you just stay on it manually with a wet/dry vac. With drain tile and a sump pump, it is designed to evacuate the water buildup around the parameter of the foundation before it gets too bad that it starts seeping in and building up on the floor of your basement.

Lastly, the actual location of a sump matters little from an operation standpoint. If you have a low spot on the floor (and no drain tile) then it should be there. If you don’t have any grade to your basement floor (or you do have drain piping around your foundation) then the location of the sump doesn’t matter. Most builders will try and convince people it should be located here or there, most times this has everything to do with not wanting to have to install a lot of tubing to get over to an outside wall (which costs them time and money but does little if anything to negatively affect the performance of the pump.) If they can’t give you a good explanation as to why a sump has to go where you don’t want it, then they are probably just trying to sandbag you (no pun intended.)

-Suntan

We’ve got a walk out with a sump that is connected to drain tubing around/under the perimeter of the foundation. The pump has never run and you can still see the drywall dust from the construction of the house at the bottom of the sump.

That said, our next door neighbor (also a walkout) has their sump run at least once or twice a day.

If you’ve lived in the place through a spring or two, you should have a good feel for how much water you get in the basement.

Also, unless you actually have drain tile/tubing around your foundation, a sump pump won’t really do anything more meaningful than running a shop vac will. Namely, if a strong storm hits and your pump is just pumping water out that has already run to the low part of the floor, your carpets and whatnot are already going to be wet, whether you have an installed sump pump or you just stay on it manually with a wet/dry vac. With drain tile and a sump pump, it is designed to evacuate the water buildup around the parameter of the foundation before it gets too bad that it starts seeping in and building up on the floor of your basement.

Lastly, the actual location of a sump matters little from an operation standpoint. If you have a low spot on the floor (and no drain tile) then it should be there. If you don’t have any grade to your basement floor (or you do have drain piping around your foundation) then the location of the sump doesn’t matter. Most builders will try and convince people it should be located here or there, most times this has everything to do with not wanting to have to install a lot of tubing to get over to an outside wall (which costs them time and money but does little if anything to negatively affect the performance of the pump.) If they can’t give you a good explanation as to why a sump has to go where you don’t want it, then they are probably just trying to sandbag you (no pun intended.)

-Suntan


Actually that is not entirely true. Our old house did not have any tiling around the perimeter and still had a sump pump. One of the purposes of a sump in not only to disperse water that is collecting on the foundations walls but also to remove the water under the foundation floor, or hydrostatic pressure. This upheaving of water under the basement floor can cause serious cracks and issue to the floor, not to mention severe stability issues. AS far as where a pit should go there is no specific place but as Suntan mentioned each builder has their own theory. Generally the go against an exterior wall so it makes it easy to put the water up and out.

Interesting stuff there Whiskey - I am not sure if house had tile around the perimeter or not. I did see standing water in the pit where they roughed in for the future bath. Thinking it was a sump, I then dumped water from my dehumidifier over the summer. I am thinking I will be shopvacing that out this weekend.

Our sump pump never runs but I'm pretty sure code requires them here too. It's in the corner of the basement and you can see where we covered it up and made it into a little seat/table.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15255233#post15255233

Tom

Your thread makes me think the pump and pipe is somewhere else. . .

Suntan - thanks for the comment also, sounds like if there aren't perimeter tiles, I can be flexible in placement if I am willing to plumb out the water.

Your thread makes me think the pump and pipe is somewhere else. . .
Somewhere else?

Somewhere else?

Okay - I got it now. Was not reading for context. Quite a conversation piece.

Any one have experience w/underground springs?

I have been in my house a year, and the area directly behind my house was always majorly damp - even during dry periods. Had a couple people speculate as to the cause, and the builder was thinking underground spring. I am still under warranty, and the builder is pretty stand up (if hard to read).

The builder, today, is apparently digging a trench along my rear foundation and installing a french drain and running it to a lower part of our yard (my rear property line is a drainage swale to a retention pond). In the digging it sounds like water is really pooling up, per my wife. Any thoughts on the likelyhood of success? Things I should be checking or pushing for?

This pic from when the house was taken shows the area that is muddy (circled). It is odd since the property continues to drop off quite a bit. I would think the lower ground would be where the water table issue would be.
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/PA%20House/Batch%202/DSC_0815-1.jpg

The next worry is there more spring area under the house. If so, should I or should I not add a sump. Argument pro = if water is under the house it can pump it out. Argument against = do I want to penetrate the foundation if there is a high water table?

I'll take some pics tonight of where things are now in the yard.

Hmm if it was a spring you'd think that it would manifest lower down that hill. Have you noticed any abnormally high water bills? Just making sure that you don't have a leaky main somewhere... When they built the house they should have noticed a spring when they excavated, unless it was rainy or winter... but even then.

The water bill is like $30/mo. Its more than it was in MA (like $40/quarter) but I just figured the cost structure was different.

The builder says they had no issues when the excavated the foundation. I know the guy next door to me has a similar issue although his wettest spot seems to be a bit further away from the foundation (essentially in front of the deck - our houses are essentially the same).

We are thinking of adding a patio under the deck also, but I am not sure how that will interact with the drainage issue. We might need to wait it out a bit.

Water can take many twist and turns. I remember as a kid (back in the early 60s) the street I grew up on sprouted a fountain about six inches high righ tthrough the asphalt paving. My mother thought it was a water main break and called the water company right away, but after they showed up and dug a huge hole in the middle of the street, they said it was an underground spring. All of the utilities were down there and they never hit it when they built the street and houses back in the 50s.

My current house sits across from a pond that used to be part of a farm. The builder had plotted a house there and planned to drain the pond until, you guessed it, he discoverd it was spring fed.

I think the water issue is always, not IF, but WHEN. Hopefully, I had my WHEN when Hannah blew through last year, and I won't have another. I would put in the sump pump. I added a backup to mine, just in case.

Argument against = do I want to penetrate the foundation if there is a high water table?


If you have a high water table, I don't think a poured concrete floor is going to keep it out.

Its weird stuff. I am anxious to get home and look at the hole they've dug. My luck it will already be filled in. The more I think about it, the more I lean towards adding the sump pit (& multiple pumps).

I assume you have clayey soils? If so, springs could pop up just about anywhere.

Do you happen to have an underground sprinkler system? If so, and you have a head there, it could just be the water draining to the lowest point in the system.

As far as french drains go, there is not too much to them. Dig a ditch, line the ditch with filter fabric, put in a slotted pipe, fill in with a washed stone, and wrap the filter fabric back over the top of the stone. Just make sure that the filter fabric is a non-woven geotextile?

What would the sump pit accomplish that the builder's solution doesn't?

CJ

The soil has clay. No sprinklers.

The sump would be related to my fear that the spring (or water table) could extend under the basement foundation and lead into a future water intrusion. It would be in addition to the french drain.

I'll investigate their build methods for the french drain. Not sure if they put the fabric in from my wife's description.

I have a daylight/walkout basement. I have a perimeter drain around the foundation with an outlet about 75 feet behind the house. No sump pit (I've never seen one in this area for daylight basements). I had a similar wet spot next to the house that got worse after a downpour. I assumed it was wet because it conincided with a small low-spot and just gathered runnoff.

My contractor during basement finishing also noticed it and thought I might have a cracked sewer line (mine drains out the back of the house and this spot was next to the sewer cleanout). I didn't think that was the cause since there were no sour smells or anything, but it got me motivated to investigate since it hadn't rained in over a week.

To make a long story short, it turned out a tree root had grown into a joint in the pipe that the foundation drain fed into and clogged it. It was only about 10 feet up from the open end of the pipe and was relatively easy to find and fix. Once I chopped the root and pulled it out the water drained for 5 minutes. It was a miracle I hadn't had any water problems in my basement.

Is it possible that you have a perimeter drain that is plugged and that spot is a joint (the perking location at my house was a joint)?

I know you don't think you have a perimeter drain, but it seems odd not to have at least that (since no sump pit) and also that your neighbor has the same problem. It almost seems that a foundation drain was laid, but then never attached so it could drain. And you now see the water perking at a joint. Anyway, just a thought...

As above, I also have a walkout basement (my future HT) and I do not have a sump pit. We live on a gently sloping hill and never have problems with water (knock on wood).

As far as I know, no one around here has a sump pit. Our soil is almost solid clay (red Georgia clay) with the first 10 inches or so consisting of sandy loam.

We do have a very extensive french drainage system surrounding the house and directing water out into multiple drain systems in the yard going to a sewage line in the back.

I'm pretty sure in Michigan a sump pump is a requirement if you have a basement. I've never seen a house here without one. On new houses when they pour the footings for the basement walls they put in black drainage piping into the footings. They go from the outside of the wall to the inside. So there are a variety of openings around the foundation for water to drain into. They put pea gravel on the outside so the water can get to the openings in the footings. Inside the basement they use large diameter PVC around the perimeter of the walls to connect those pass through tubes to the sump well.

Well, here's my 2 cents worth as well....I built in 2000 and have a gently sloping CLAY lot. I had builder put in two sump pumps. (primary and overflow) which empty into a drainage ditch maybe 1-2 feet lower than grade. They had outside and inside footer drains (french drains) which were tied together through the footer area into the sump(s). I also had them backfill with gravel to within 12" of final grade to accelerate the water down to the drains. I have had MAJOR hydraulic pressure buildup around foundation after heavy rains if I lose power, but never had water push up through the sump crocks (probably will soon though now that I said that). They've literally run non stop for 15-20 minutes to empty out the foundation build-up. Why the basement didn't flood is beyond me. Maybe having the gravel back fill gave an escape path UPWARD for the water pressure?

My opinion on your situation would be (going under the assumption you don't have a spring under your basement floor) is the following:

Determine from your builder just what your drainage situation is along the outside/inside of your foundation. If you have drains along the front and sides running to the lower grade, I personally wouldn't worry about putting in a sump. The water collects along these three walls, is collected in the drain and exits at the back, flowing down grade.

For optimal sump action, you will have both inside and outside drains which are tied together through the footer, with the inside drain feeding into the sump crock. If you don't have an inside drain along the foundation, then the only water that the crock will pump is what is naturally collected under your basement floor, which probably has an escape path already due to your grade.

With that in mind, it's my opinion that you don't need a sump if you don't have excessive water build-up under your basement floor and have adequate drain around the outside perimeter.

Appreciate the comments folks, I need to read through them and digest. In the mean time here are the pics I took when I got home.

Here is a shot of the digging to date - hugs the house to the cement step, then straight out into the yard:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/PA%20House/DSC_0012.jpg
The portion IMMEDIATELY adjacent to the foundation has a lot of water, and you can see it pour (pics not the clearest):
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/PA%20House/DSC_0001.jpg
As the worm turns:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/PA%20House/DSC_0007.jpg
The water draining so far:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/PA%20House/DSC_0005.jpg
Another angle:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/PA%20House/DSC_0010.jpg
The pipes the builder brought (about 3-4 inches):
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/PA%20House/DSC_0009.jpg
An shot from above:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/PA%20House/DSC_0008.jpg
A shot of the muddy area that hasn't dug (yet?)
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u129/dc_pilgrim/PA%20House/DSC_0004.jpg

Still digesting this. Our biggest concern is that this water will somehow weaken our foundation from below, if its below the house. I have watched this builder build other houses and talked to some folks and I know they use a footer that has an air gap that is supposed to help w/drainage (form a footer?), and gravel, but I do not believe they use perimeter drains.

You definitely have more than a little wet spot. Waaaay more than I had. Given those pics, my bet is you have a high water table and basically have a spring in your back yard.

You really should have a perimiter drainage system around your foundation. This will cut off the water before it ever gets under your slab. However, with the walk-out basement and the slope at the back of your house, you're better off tying the perimeter drain to some pipes outletting near the bottom of the hill and relying on the constancy of gravity to drain it down rather than having to use a sump pump.

CJ

I am thinking I want an engineer to take a look at it.

I have been reading this website - all of the articles in it are excellent reads if any one has drainage or foundation issues in a future search.

http://www.foundation-repair-guide.com/index.html

OK, now for the opinion you don't want to hear:

Call in an independent expert, that is a lot of water. I am thinking that you may want the entire perimeter of the foundation walls excavated to well below the floor in the basement. Then a rock drain field and piping installed. The exterior of the foundation should have a waterproof membrane attached it is not already in place.

What I see in the pictures is the cheapest possible band-aid that the builder is trying to put on this problem and if under warranty I think you need to get more aggressive. I would not consider finishing the basement until this is resolved.

I am drifting down that path Jeff. Just trying to figure out who to hire. I have had two landscapers out and the builder. The builder with his half measure has been the most agressive, in suggesting a diagnosis and a cure, but the cure looks like a half measure to me. My wife's google searching came up with a geotechnical engineer. If the foundation repair guy in that website I linked to above was local, I'd hire him in a heartbeat, but he is west coast.

The basement is partially finished already (came that way, hence my planned build is in a small box). No detected water intrusion yet. At this point, I may delay the theater build another year and focus my $$ on the yard. I don't want to get into blame games with the builder I just want a thought out and executed plan, even if I fund it.

Landscape Architect?
Geotech engineer?
Foundation repair person?
Basement Waterproof company?
Landscaper?

Its probably could be any of the above, just a matter of finding a good one.

A geotech or soils engineer not employed by a company who would bid on the job would be the most objective but expensive.

Obviously you can bring in waterproofing companies for a free estimate and opinion but they are obviously going to be biased toward their flavor of solutions.

Had two conversations yesterday -

First w/ a geotech engineer - he clearly doesn't do residential (he did a very large shopping center in the area) but he did kindly spend ten minutes on the phone. Based on my description he wasn't particularly exercised about the issue. He felt it was 50/50 that it was a spring, or that water from the ground was using my foundation or basement walls as a path of least resistance to seep around my house and was being deposited in the rear of my house. Whichever the source, he felt that the direction the builder was taking (perhaps not the limited extent) was correct, in that you want to further move the water from the foundation. He did not feel the foundation would be compromised, as the water would likely need some velocity to harm it. To my mind of thinking, if the source is water using my basement walls or the gravel beside it as a path of least resistance that seems like a bad scene.

I also spoke to the builder. He is doing the minimum. I guess its better than nothing, but we most likely rip it out when we put something more comprehensive in place. He terminated his dig, basically as the pictures above show, cut the pipe at a 45 degree angle. Hand perf'd the 3" pipe (they had pre-perf'd pipe in 4", but he didn't want to dig that much - telling, huh?) filled the hole w/gravel and put the grass and fill back.

At this point, I will watch and see how much of an impact the half solution has. But I will be getting more opinions and eventually replacing it. I'll take a few pics later and post them.

DC I feel for you. Must be frustrating as heck. A good friend of mine just went through something similar and it was water coming from the front of the house to the back, down hill. His yard actually sloped down from the street to the front of the house. First big rain the water pushed up against the front of the house and ran over the foundation wall. Big mess. Ended up regrading the front and sides of the house so that water ran away from the house. He didn't have neighbors close so it wasn't that big of an issue. If your builder put in a good waterproofing system you should be ok as long as you drain from the back, still nerveracking none the less. Good luck.

Had two conversations yesterday -

First w/ a geotech engineer - he clearly doesn't do residential (he did a very large shopping center in the area) but he did kindly spend ten minutes on the phone. Based on my description he wasn't particularly exercised about the issue. He felt it was 50/50 that it was a spring, or that water from the ground was using my foundation or basement walls as a path of least resistance to seep around my house and was being deposited in the rear of my house. Whichever the source, he felt that the direction the builder was taking (perhaps not the limited extent) was correct, in that you want to further move the water from the foundation. He did not feel the foundation would be compromised, as the water would likely need some velocity to harm it. To my mind of thinking, if the source is water using my basement walls or the gravel beside it as a path of least resistance that seems like a bad scene.

I also spoke to the builder. He is doing the minimum. I guess its better than nothing, but we most likely rip it out when we put something more comprehensive in place. He terminated his dig, basically as the pictures above show, cut the pipe at a 45 degree angle. Hand perf'd the 3" pipe (they had pre-perf'd pipe in 4", but he didn't want to dig that much - telling, huh?) filled the hole w/gravel and put the grass and fill back.

At this point, I will watch and see how much of an impact the half solution has. But I will be getting more opinions and eventually replacing it. I'll take a few pics later and post them.

I'm sure that there are some other geotechnical companies in the area that do residential. Some that come to mind are S&ME, PSI, and Mactech.

I agree with the other engineer who said that it would not hurt unless it has some velocity to go with it.

CJ

PS- I'm a licensed engineer (though not in PA) with over a decade of geotechnical experience. However, I did not specialize in underground drainage, so don't want to offer too many opinions!

DC I feel for you. Must be frustrating as heck. A good friend of mine just went through something similar and it was water coming from the front of the house to the back, down hill.

Don't worry about me too much. We have the ability to get past this, I just don't like the feeling of throwing darts in the dark. Fun issues, huh? Glad your friend was able to solve his problem.

I'm sure that there are some other geotechnical companies in the area that do residential. Some that come to mind are S&ME, PSI, and Mactech.

I agree with the other engineer who said that it would not hurt unless it has some velocity to go with it.

CJ

PS- I'm a licensed engineer (though not in PA) with over a decade of geotechnical experience. However, I did not specialize in underground drainage, so don't want to offer too many opinions!

CJ - interesting I think I saw PSI in one of my google searches and they looked too big for us. Anyways, we found a local shop that does geotech, surveys, landscape architecture, etc and I gave them a call this morning. I am pretty sure got the youngest guy on the staff on the phone, and he was pulled out of a staff meeting. He offered to pull aerial photos of my site (to what end?) and call me back and work out next steps. I sent an e-mail that spelled out my concerns and included a bunch of the pics of the issue and the property.

At this point, I think the yard is moving in front of the HT, and the various projects we planned to spread out over a couple years (drainage, patios, stairs, retaining walls) will get integrated into a master plan. Not my first choice, but is what it is. I have a feeling I'll be retrofitting perimeter drains in this process.

The aerial was probably just to get an idea of what the area looks like as well as the slopes. I think you are probably going in the right direction putting the yard stuff in front of the theater. I'd hate for you to finish everything in the basement and then it all get flooded out.

CJ

Dave, I read through this water concern of yours. I'm sorry to say that I'm only going to have some opinions and they'll be no more qualified than any of the ones you already have. :(

I don't have specific knowledges in issues like yours. But I can say that the first rule in handling water is to solve the problem at the source as opposed to finding a way to work with the problem. In your case, its finding the source that is the puzzle. Any other solution, as BIG said, is a bandaid.

I'll think out loud here on some possible bandaids in the event you can't find the source and fix it.

I would consider lowering grade at the house by 6" and then grading out, keeping the slope you already have. This means a step out of the basement and handling the deck posts in some fashion. But could provide some interesting opportunities for small retaining walls, etc.

French drians are a must. I have seen french drains bored under an existing foundation. Maybe 3 or 4 bores under the house? They can't lay gravel into those bores, but can put something like the new septic field pipe wrapped in foam peanuts (wrap that with filter fabric and then insert).

You've got lots of fall in the back yard that is to your advantage. I would install much deeper drains than what your photos show. Get someone with a small backhoe that's not afraid to move some dirt. Dig drains to lets say a 36" depth with gravel from bottom up to 6" of the surface. Have the outlets of these deeper drains down at the bottom of the pit and run them out towards the back of property until they daylight (keeping a steady slope so gravity does the job).

So you end up with perimeter drains, a deeper drain across the problem area with 3 or 4 drains under the house. Then 3 or 4 drains coming from the problem area down to daylight (or for that matter piped all the way down to your rear property line).

Also, is there anything about the grade in the front yard that could be changed to direct surface water even further from the house? are your downspouts tied into drains that bring the water to a point lower than the house?

Any or all or none of this may be the solution. Like I qualified, mine is just brainstorming and I have no professional expertise in this area. Someone qualified may even laugh at my ideas. But I'm with the guys here in that you need a third party professional opinion.

Best of luck with it. I'll be interested to follow your adventure.

Thanks Tony. We keep hitting dry holes while we look for a professional consult. But we are going down a list looking for a call back. So much for the recession.

I am not a do it half-way kind of guy, so once we get a plan going we will definitely plan on throwing some dirt around. I appreciate your thoughts on further solutions. The p/t wood deck posts and the composite decking have shown mold growth which I think is being fed by all the moisture being available. So the time is now.

Had another landscaper out today. He is convinced its rainfall runoff and grading. He pointed out a few spots where the grade V's in to the house. It happened to be raining when he was there, which may have been an influence (or a revelation).

He suggested routing the gutters underground, then building up the ground a bit and redoing the grade. He commented on the nature of the soil by the rear of our house as being very "tight" suggesting the clay content would limit the water draining out unless the pitch was right.

He didn't think perimeter drains were essential, but would include them as a line item in his quote.

Having watched the builder's band aid over the last few weeks I am leaning towards the run off vs the spring theory. The ground did get drier during dry spells, then the end of the pipe really picked up after a good rain.

Dave, I only skimmed through this thread briefly. Your problem is likely due to runoff, rather than springs. In the mountains, you very often see springs pop up here and there, but not in a flat area as you have. I also don't think you need to worry about water table, given the slop you have. So I think your best solution is better grading+perimeter drainage.

I live in Cary, NC and I can tell you many of the new constructions do have sum pits, not so much for usual runoffs (since they are taken care of by perimeter drainage), but for bathrooms or occasional water problems (like cracked floor, etc).

Jun - thanks for chiming in.

I am thinking the same way. The last guy out, who is an exavator, felt the same, and pointed places where by settling or erosion the land takes a V towards the foundation. We worry, since he is an earth pusher, that he is like a hammer who sees every problem as a nail, but at this point we worry that we might not even get a quote. It has been a couple weeks. What recession?

Hmm if it was a spring you'd think that it would manifest lower down that hill. Have you noticed any abnormally high water bills? Just making sure that you don't have a leaky main somewhere... When they built the house they should have noticed a spring when they excavated, unless it was rainy or winter... but even then.

a leaking main wouldnt show up on a water bill as the meter is usually after the main enters the house.

my house (2yrs old) does not have a sump pit/pump. Its NOT a walkout basement and i've never had any water issues.


I gather from reading around that a sump pit is only required if you are within a certain distance to the water table, and possibly other factors like soil type, sewer service vs septic, etc.