The Magic 8 Ball Speaks Out On TVGOS & DTV! [Text View]

cbrillow

12-24-08, 09:19 AM

Hello,

First of all, many thanks to Ken_H, DrDon, Rammitinski, Trip and other moderators and frequent contributors to the forum. I've learned much from what you've all you've taken the time to offer, and appreciate it very much. Unfortunately, things are still not all that clear-cut with the TVGOS issue.

New forum member here, one with somewhat simple and old-fashioned needs and equipment compared with most of you, but one whose entertainment is dependent upon the some of the newer technologies discussed, nevertheless.

In particular, I'm a Detroit area Comcast cable subscriber who has been successfully enjoying TVGOS on my Panasonic DMR-EH75V for the past several years. TVGOS ceased functioning in the past week or so, and my fears were that it was in some way connected to the upcoming transition to DTV. Scouring the net and this forum for several hours has led me to believe the following:

1) WTVS -- Detroit's PBS station -- was my TVGOS analog host. This was apparent all along, as my TVGOS device tuned to it for EPG information when turned off.

2) Comcast had been passing this signal along to enable my TVGOS device to function properly.

3) At some point in the very recent past, WTVS stopped passing the analog TVGOS signal. Whether this is by design or the result of equipment failure, is uncertain. (at least, to me...)

and/or

4) Comcast has either stopped passing the TVGOS signal or it is now unavailable to them.

and/or

5) WWJ, CBS 62.1 is now providing a digital version of the TVGOS signal

or

WWJ, CBS 62.1 has made provisions to provide the TVGOS signal, but is currently not including actual TVGOS data in the stream

and/or

6) Comcast may or may not be passing this along to subscribers

and

7) the net result is empty EPG listings and continuous searching for a host channel on my TVGOS device

which

8) requires an analog TVGOS signal to propagate the listings.

There is a lot of additional, sometimes conflicting, information about the DTV Pal CECB and its ability (or not) to tune the digital TVGOS signal and (or not) to convert it to analog to pass along to analog-dependent devices. I've tried a couple of configurations in an attempt to fool my Panasonic into thinking it's getting an analog TVGOS signal from the TV Pal, to no avail. I'm open to experimentation, but each attempt at locating a host and downloading the EPG requires 24 - 48 hours during which I have to explain to my wife that she can watch TV, but the channel will be changing continuously. That doesn't fly very well around here.

I've learned about the various firmware versions and how to determine what my device uses via "magic" numbers that display TVGOS diagnostic screens. I've learned how to reset to factory defaults and how to force a Host station.

And after all of this, I still can't record a program on my DVD recorder anymore.

Ken H seems to have privileged information, yet is bound by a non-disclosure agreement and can only placate us with a 'It will all be better soon' general statement. I understand and respect this, but, with all the hullabaloo and warnings to the general public about the transition, you would think that somewhere along the chain, those responsible for generating, integrating and propagating the TVGOS signal would have the courtesy to let us know when it's going to 'break' and an estimate of how long it will be before we again have a working solution.

We seem to be a neglected part of the transition and I don't appreciate being left in the dark by the manufacturers, television stations, cable companies and, ultimately, Macrovision/Gemstar. (or whoever the current owner of TVGOS is...) Sure it's a "free" service -- what do we expect? Well, one of the reasons I selected the Panasonic was for the TVGOS service and its TIVO-like programmability. Assuming that this was provided by Panasonic under license, then I've paid for the service by my selection of their product.

Ken H -- there's one thing that's omitted from your definitions in the thread-opener, and it's the scenario that fits my situation:

Devices that were previously available with only analog tuner.

I've visited the Macrovision TVGOS page that permits you to determine whether your device should work and my situation meets the listed criteria. I've sent a message to them, as suggested, but have not received a reply.

I apologize for the length of this message and that it probably sounds like a rant to most of you. But the fun factor's not particularly high right now.... :(

Ken H

12-24-08, 12:19 PM

Ken H -- there's one thing that's omitted from your definitions in the thread-opener, and it's the scenario that fits my situation:

Devices that were previously available with only analog tuner.As others have already noted in this topic, because analog stations are going off the air, TVGOS devices with only analog tuners will no longer work as in the past. This should be pretty obvious.

As I understand it from others who have posted here, the DTVPal Plus, which uses TVGOS and has a DTV tuner, is supposed to be the solution for these devices. I haven't given any thought to how that would work, and if it would be an acceptable workaround for most end users.

I agree that the lack of information on this subject is less than desirable. That's why I asked my sources. My guess is that there are still a number of issues still being looked at, as the digital transition approaches. I can only suggest being patient, for now.

Rammitinski

12-24-08, 02:22 PM

cbrillow

12-24-08, 04:14 PM

As others have already noted in this topic, because analog stations are going off the air, TVGOS devices with only analog tuners will no longer work as in the past. This should be pretty obvious.Thanks for you comment, Ken.

I may have oversimplified this. Although my device has only an analog tuner, it's used with a Comcast digital cable box. If I were not using a cable box, it's clear that a CECB would be required to tune ANYTHING after the analog channels leave the air. So it may actually be better considered a device with both NTSC and ATSC tuners, even though they're not in the same box. Simply put, the only purpose served by the analog tuner in myTVGOS device is to pluck the TVGOS signal from the host station, display the EPG and change the cable box to the appropriate channel. It isn't used to tune to any other analog stations. Therefore, it would follow that any device that could receive or decode the digital TVGOS signal - if it really exists at this time - could theoretically perform the same function.

As I understand it from others who have posted here, the DTVPal Plus, which uses TVGOS and has a DTV tuner, is supposed to be the solution for these devices. I haven't given any thought to how that would work, and if it would be an acceptable workaround for most end users. It's clear enough how a correctly-functioning DTV Pal would be used as a standalone OTA TVGOS DTV solution, as it's designed to grab the signal from a CBS host, display the OTA digital channel EPG and then change its own digital tuner to the selected station. If the TVGOS signal is indeed combined with the RF or composite output of the Pal, you would think that a TVGOS device that looks for an input signal on the composite input or an RF channel, like 3, would be able to get the required information. Moreover, you would think that the DTVPal could be left tuned to the CBS TVGOS host, because it's the cable box that requires changing to tune different channels, not the DTVPal.

Scooper

12-24-08, 04:19 PM

To get a better handle on the DTVPAL - I'd suggest you goto http://www.dtvpal.com/ and download a copy of the user manual for the DTVPal Plus.

cbrillow

12-24-08, 04:30 PM

For information on using the EH75V strictly with manual timers, consult the DVD Recorders forum. There are one or two threads there devoted to the subject (might mention the EH55V in the thread title, which is basically the same). They can help you more with issues like the channels constantly changing due to the unit searching for the TVGOS signal when using an external tuner, etc.Thanks for the heads-up. Chances are, I've seen these posts already as I've literally spent hours poring over this forum before joining in order to post questions or comments.

As far as the Pal, nobody has gotten that to work yet, and others have also tried just about everything imaginable, so I don't think you can depend on that yet. The "word" is that they're not sending some kind of "special" data that's meant just for the Pal yet.I can understand where we haven't been able to get this to work yet in a way unintended by its design, but do have one very basic question that I've not found to be answered definitively: Has anyone used the Pal as a simple DTV converter that uses TVGOS to tune itself (the Pal) to stations identified on the TGVOS EPG? That's the intended function and one would think that it would work, if reports that actual digital TVGOS signals are being sent by CBS O&O stations are correct. Guess this is another test I could perform myself, with the Pal, an antenna and an analog TV.

(Also, there is a lot of information in the Sony DVR thread in the HDTV Recorders forum about the intermittetent guide listing problems as of late.)This I know I've read. Many times.

Thanks again. Keep fighting the good fight. If I happen to stumble across anything, I'll share...

cbrillow

12-24-08, 04:31 PM

To get a better handle on the DTVPAL - I'd suggest you goto http://www.dtvpal.com/ and download a copy of the user manual for the DTVPal Plus.Thanks. Have the Pal, have the manual and have read it cover-to-cover.

Scooper

12-24-08, 04:37 PM

Well - you should be able to set manual timers on the DTVPAL, and the other posts on setting manual timers for your recorder may help on that.

Rammitinski

12-25-08, 03:05 AM

Has anyone used the Pal as a simple DTV converter that uses TVGOS to tune itself (the Pal) to stations identified on the TGVOS EPG? That's the intended function and one would think that it would work, if reports that actual digital TVGOS signals are being sent by CBS O&O stations are correct.Yes, and no go.

The only thing people have gotten to work with the recommended setup are the IR blasters on the recorders to change the channels on the box, using a Scientific Atlanta cable box code and "special" channel numbers. So you can set manual timers on the recorder, and at least don't have to worry about synching the timers on the box, also.

It hasn't passed (converted) any guide data for the TVGOS grid to use, though.

cbrillow

12-25-08, 06:17 PM

The only thing people have gotten to work with the recommended setup are the IR blasters on the recorders to change the channels on the box.... <snip>

It hasn't passed (converted) any guide data for the TVGOS grid to use, though.

Wow... Glad I didn't buy the DTV Pal specifically for this.

Looking at the manual and reading the section on TVGOS and comparing it to users' experience here, it's difficult to formulate a logical question because there's so much conflicting information.

Would it be a fair to state that: "The DTV Pal has a mode designed to work with a TVGOS capable device (TV, DVD recorder or VCR) that accepts signals from the DTV Pal and assembles the information into a searchable Onscreen Electronic Program Guide. User interaction with the EPG permits the selection of a channel, which the TVGOS-capable device will tune on the DTV Pal via a G-Link, aka IR blaster. BUT THIS SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK AS INTENDED." ???

If it's not intended to work this way, why even mention TVGOS in the manual? It certainly can't mean that the TVGOS device is supposed to receive its data from some other source, but will change the DTV Pal channels for you. That doesn't make sense -- because if you could receive the TVGOS signal in the first place, why would you need a DTV converter?

This is making my head swim.

Rammitinski

12-25-08, 07:56 PM

Would it be a fair to state that: "The DTV Pal has a mode designed to work with a TVGOS capable device (TV, DVD recorder or VCR) that accepts signals from the DTV Pal and assembles the information into a searchable Onscreen Electronic Program Guide. User interaction with the EPG permits the selection of a channel, which the TVGOS-capable device will tune on the DTV Pal via a G-Link, aka IR blaster. BUT THIS SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK AS INTENDED." ???Yeah. The box is supposed to convert the digital data it receives through it's tuner to analog, and the TVGOS grid on the recorder is supposed to fill in with info. Then you use the TV Guide to schedule programs as you did before, and the IR blaster will change the channels on the box and record from it's tuner.

They (whoever "they" are) are saying that the host stations are not broadcasting some kind of special data stream that the Pal is designed to use. Supposedly it's not the same as the standard digital TVGOS stream they're already sending out in many areas.

If this is true, they will hopefully get around sometime to broadcasting that signal. When that time comes, then you can supposedly use the Pal to convert it. I hope it works eventually, because I paid full price for one mainly for this very usage. I have 2 analog HDD/DVD recorders with TVGOS that need it. Otherwise, the box is especially buggy, and the PQ is not up to par with some of the better CECB's out there, so I really don't prefer to use it strictly as an add-on tuner.

cbrillow

12-26-08, 07:29 AM

Yeah. The box is supposed to convert the digital data it receives through it's tuner to analog, and the TVGOS grid on the recorder is supposed to fill in with info.
Thank you for saying that. Whether it's ultimately accurate or not, at least it corresponds to what I consider a common sense reading of the manual.

They (whoever "they" are) are saying that the host stations are not broadcasting some kind of special data stream that the Pal is designed to use. Supposedly it's not the same as the standard digital TVGOS stream they're already sending out in many areas.Yeah, I've seen threads in which this was discussed, and it seems a bit murky. It's conceivable that some stations may not be fully integrating the TVGOS signal, but it doesn't make sense that the Pal would have its own "flavor." How could anybody expect them to tailor this to one particular CECB?

The Macrovision site seems quite clear that my requirements should be met by Comcast, as they are listed as being compliant with the standard that defines sending data over the digital signal, and my cable box is listed as one that can handle it. According to them, it should be working now in my area. I've yet to receive an answer to my inquiry.

If this is true, they will hopefully get around sometime to broadcasting that signal. When that time comes, then you can supposedly use the Pal to convert it. I hope it works eventually, because I paid full price for one mainly for this very usage. I have 2 analog HDD/DVD recorders with TVGOS that need it. Otherwise, the box is especially buggy, and the PQ is not up to par with some of the better CECB's out there, so I really don't prefer to use it strictly as an add-on tuner.
So you must be OTA, huh?

Rammitinski

12-26-08, 06:58 PM

So you must be OTA, huh?With my Sony DHG-HDD500 HD DVR I am. But with my SD Panasonic EH75V, the TVGOS is set up to work with Dish Network, and the guide doesn't fill in for that anyway. You actually use the Dish guide to program through, and the recorder starts and stops on it's own, and titles the recordings.

But I also have two other, older HDD/DVD recorders with TVGOS, and I'm using one on a second TV right now, only with the manual timers (I rarely ever record with that one, but I figure as long as I've got them, I might as well use make use of them).

Rammitinski

12-26-08, 07:00 PM

Yeah, I've seen threads in which this was discussed, and it seems a bit murky. It's conceivable that some stations may not be fully integrating the TVGOS signal, but it doesn't make sense that the Pal would have its own "flavor." How could anybody expect them to tailor this to one particular CECB?I don't know. :rolleyes: I find it hard to believe myself that they would go through all that trouble just for one device.

cbrillow

12-27-08, 06:38 AM

Well, Ram... Thanks for your sage advice and willingness to compare notes. I think my own experimentation with this is done for the time being. There are just too many variables and too little that is known about 'who's-doing-what' at the present time for me to continue to waste my time. If there were not potential fixes or the stark realization that it-ain't-never-gonna-work on the horizon, it might be worth losing some more hair over. I'll continue to monitor the forum and see what happens in the next 6 weeks or so.

In the meantime, my TVGOS device has been without a host channel for long enough that it's finally offered to stop searching and permit me to schedule a recording manually. That's good enough for now. I really hope to get back to where I was 3 weeks ago with TVGOS, but if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. Life goes on.

Take care, and Happy New Year!

WillN937

12-30-08, 10:04 PM

I don't know. :rolleyes: I find it hard to believe myself that they would go through all that trouble just for one device.

It might be the other way. Echostar may be adding the "capability?" to the DTVPal to keep all the analog TVGOS boxes working instead of Macrovision creating data to support the DTVPal. This does not appear to be a totally one sided arrangement.

But whatever, it would be nice if it worked or they would make a clear statement when it will to lower the fustration level.

bootymonger

12-30-08, 10:20 PM

I've got a Panny E85 (analog-only TVGOS DVR/DVDR) that still gets listings, but I'm pretty much in the same boat waiting to see how this goes.

If it ever works for the digital to analog TVGOS translation, I'll gladly buy a DTVPal (or the cheaper TR-40).

If that never works, but I still get the time into my E85 somehow, I'll be able to limp along with manual timer settings and using the timers in the Samsung H260f HD tuner as I do now for some shows.

If I lose the time signal and the guide signal, and the DTVpal doesn't ever work, that will be rather sad.

I do find it worrisome that Panasonic isn't listed in the http://tvgos.com/support page that my TVGOS ads in the EPG tell me to visit.

Oh well, hurry up and wait.

bhull09

12-30-08, 10:34 PM

Oh great mystical M8B, can you provide an update on the status of a solution that will assure existing TVGOS analog dependent devices (for example the Sony DHG-HDD250/500) have future compatibility with TVGOS & Digital TV?

Can you identify any sites or forum pages that we can check to be sure we learn of the solution as soon as it is available?

I just found your initial posting and thought that Christmas had come again. Thanks.

I am still open to any comments from the M8B on the stock market or even the Lions new head coach.

Rammitinski

12-30-08, 10:55 PM

bootymonger

12-30-08, 11:48 PM

That's good to know, thanks. I guess I never tried disabling TVGOS to use the manual clock set option. Looks like I'll have to reinitialize it to factory defaults to "un-grey" the manual clock setting option in the setup menu.

To initialize ALL parameters to factory defaults: With the unit OFF, press "Skip Rev" ( |<< ) and "Time Slip" and "Open/Close" for 5 seconds.

Says this guy: http://www.dxcc.com/dmr-e85h.htm

Sorry for the semi-off-topic rambling, but I hopefully won't have to resort to the above if the DTVPal solution ever starts to work. If not, it's good info to share :)

Edit: Oh yeah... it will "mesh" by letting me set the the E85 to record input L1 at some time where L1 is the S-video output of the H260f which has its own PSIP timer to change channels (as long as you leave it turned on). It's a huge step backwards, but works.

Rammitinski

12-31-08, 01:27 AM

Oh, OK. I thought maybe you were going to set it up to control a tuner with the IR blaster. In that case, you'd have to set it up through the TVGOS for "cable with a cable box", and that would gray the clock out then. If you don't set it up that way, the IR blaster won't fire.

A few of us here, including myself, are using the E85H that way, usually with the CM-7000. May end up having to use a box with timers after the analog cutoff (but I do have a DTVPal for that, just in case. I also have an H260F, but it's not preferable to use on my 4:3 analog set.).

Kelson

01-01-09, 07:59 PM

If that never works, but I still get the time into my E85 somehow, I'll be able to limp along with manual timer settings and using the timers in the Samsung H260f HD tuner as I do now for some shows.

If I lose the time signal and the guide signal, and the DTVpal doesn't ever work, that will be rather sad.

The E85H also has manual clock setting. I'm not sure how that will mesh when setting it up to use with an external tuner, but I would think it would be OK.

Oh, OK. I thought maybe you were going to set it up to control a tuner with the IR blaster. In that case, you'd have to set it up through the TVGOS for "cable with a cable box", and that would gray the clock out then. If you don't set it up that way, the IR blaster won't fire.I've had my E-85 controlling a CM-7000 via IR blaster for manual recordings over the last four months -- Ram helped through the initial setup. In this configuration, the E-85 menus allow for setting the time/date manually. I set my E-85 clock to the second against the Naval Observatory atomic clock. I had the opportunity to visually check it against the New Years eve countdown clock last night and find it has lost only about 5 sec over the last 4 weeks. So, you can set the E-85 clock manually when it is set up to control an external tuner and the clock maintains the time very well.

Speedskater

01-01-09, 08:17 PM

I've had my E-85 controlling a CM-7000 via IR blaster for manual recordings over the last four months -- Ram helped through the initial setup. In this configuration, the E-85 menus allow for setting the time/date manually. I set my E-85 clock to the second against the Naval Observatory atomic clock. I had the opportunity to visually check it against the New Years eve countdown clock last night and find it has lost only about 5 sec over the last 4 weeks. So, you can set the E-85 clock manually when it is set up to control an external tuner and the clock maintains the time very well.

I think that some of the network shows had 4 seconds of digital delay last night.

Rammitinski

01-02-09, 02:58 AM

So, you can set the E-85 clock manually when it is set up to control an external tuner....Yeah, I was fooling around with the setup last night and found out you could, so that's good to know.

bootymonger

01-02-09, 09:23 PM

Kelson

01-02-09, 11:21 PM

Good info. Hmm, I'll still wait for a verdict on DTVPals converting the TVGOS, but if that never happens, I might try to get the E85's IR blaster (g-link) to control the H260f. I suppose that's impossible, so I might get a CM7000 instead of a DTVPal/tr-40 with my last coupon. That doesn't expire until March, so I'm just "wait and see" for now.Just FYI, the CM-7000 has an S-video output. As a result the recorded PQ on the E-85 is just superb as viewed on a Panasonic 50" 1080p plasma (50PZ85U) through 480p component hookup. The picture is SD but looks good enough that one forgets it's not HD. It makes waiting for the bugs to get ironed out with the Pal DVR more than tolerable.

Rammitinski

01-03-09, 02:17 AM

I might try to get the E85's IR blaster (g-link) to control the H260f.It won't work.

bootymonger

01-03-09, 04:06 PM

Again, more good info. Thanks. I have my H260F connected to the s-video input of the E85 and the combo works well for semi-manual recording of HD and playback over component on a KV-32HS500 set to 16:9 mode. This config is fine for waiting, too, but I'd like guide-based control eventually. I didn't think the IR blaster would work in this setup, and now Ram confirmed. Saves me some tinkering and web searching.

PhilB

01-11-09, 09:40 PM

Ken (M8B),

PhillyC has reported in the DHG thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15512626#post15512626) that TVG is working on a solution in cooperation with the cable companies to keep existing TVGOS devices functioning after the digital switch-over. Of course this would mean that those of use who are OTA only will be SOL.

Can you comment on these assertions. Is the solution that you are familiar with going to work with OTA as wall as cable?

Thanks,

-phil

Ken H

01-11-09, 10:40 PM

Can you comment on these assertions. Is the solution that you are familiar with going to work with OTA as wall as cable?If you check my original comments, the solution I've referenced will be from OTA. I would assume for cable carrying OTA, it would also be available. It does not surprise me cable is also working on a dedicated solution.

PhilB

01-12-09, 10:41 AM

bhull09

01-15-09, 03:12 PM

If you check my original comments, the solution I've referenced will be from OTA. I would assume for cable carrying OTA, it would also be available. It does not surprise me cable is also working on a dedicated solution.

Ken H:

What is the status of the OTA fix referenced in your initial positing? Any guestimate on the time it will become available to the public?

Ken H

01-15-09, 08:15 PM

Ken H:

What is the status of the OTA fix referenced in your initial positing? Any guestimate on the time it will become available to the public?

I've not heard anything, but if I do I'll post here. The initial info referenced the word 'soon', and that was on 12/8/08.

DA1745

01-19-09, 07:17 PM

Hey,
A number of "us" have had problems with the Guid Plus+ System - ATI (that came bundled for many years with ATI All-In-wonder card, TV Wonder, HDTV wonder cards etc. In the PAST periodic problems with Guid Plus were not uncommon. But unlike previously when an un-install / re-install or repair setup would have fixed things...there appears to be something wrong with the listing server. at http://www.gemstarguide.com/gdndl/gdnget.asp
This is the starting point of the process. Although you can modify the registry to point it to the current update page: http://144.198.100.134/gtidl/gdnget2.asp
without it first calling home the setup simply goes through the motions. Even when copying over the same registry settings from an exact same verision of a working Guide Plus, it makes no difference (*unless the Guide Plus had previously been activated, and simply needed a newer update page). It will download the guide but is unable to properly list them until it makes contact. I have two additional computers that have Guide Plus+ System for ATI working just as well as it ever did. They update and get the current listings. one is running the exact same version as the clean install system and the reinstall system that won't work Version 1.0.0.50. Also an additional working version 1.0.0.45

You can read more over here: http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?p=1335765887#post1335765887
But even installing the Guide Plus on a "completely clean system" Guide Plus (unlike in the past) is unable to operate.
It's unknown as to whether this is just a temporary listing server problem or issue, as they have problems from time to time or something more permanent. My current hope is that the ATI - problem reports and phone calls to Macrovision 1-800-386-7380 I an others have made will get someone to look at get the server back up.

I am posting this here so that it might inform someone else who is having similar issues with Guide Plus+ system for ATi on there HTPC system as to why it is no longer working and to save them a lot of un-installing/re-installing time. Further if anyone else has seen any AMD/ATI press releases or Macrovision information pertaining specifically to ATI users, please post them here. or in the 3d rage thread. THANK YOU.

EDIT UPDATE:
Solved the problem over on rage 3d.com Site URL I listed just above.... Even though the listing server is down...possibly permanently, at this point even a clean installation or re-installtion can get Guide Plus installed and running or back up and running with all the current analog listings.

bhull09

01-22-09, 01:45 PM

I've not heard anything, but if I do I'll post here. The initial info referenced the word 'soon', and that was on 12/8/08.

Thanks oh great one. :) I suppose the likely delay of the DTV transition may also delay the release/deployment of the OTAis solution.

oldsyd

01-27-09, 12:58 PM

I hope there is a solution for those of us who want to use TVGOS in a market where the CBS affiliate has no plans to carry the Digital TV Guide On Screen data.

Our CBS affiliate has basically said that Macrovision has not approached them, they have no plans to carry it, and it is redundant since they already send out PSIP (Program and System Information Protocol) data for their programming.

Anyone else getting this type of feedback?

Ken H

01-28-09, 02:59 PM

Delivering Data to TV Guide Consumer Electronic Devices
October 2008

http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/3d927cc0e5.pdf

LS2JSTS

01-28-09, 11:58 PM

Thanks Ken...Great info there.

videobruce

01-29-09, 10:37 AM

"Gemstar TV Guide"??
What happened to Macrovision? :confused:

catmother

01-29-09, 01:03 PM

Delivering Data to TV Guide Consumer Electronic Devices
October 2008

http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/3d927cc0e5.pdf

Using Tsreader Lite I examined every DTV transmission in San Diego. Only XETV-DT transmits the PID's shown in table 2 of the above referenced TVGuide document.

The list of transmissions examined is:
FOX6 23 6 -1 (XETV-DT
KFMB 7 8 -1
KGTV 25 10 -1
KPBSHD 30 15 -1
KNSD 40 39 -1
KNSDWX 40 39 2
KUSI 18 51 -1
KSWB 19 69 -1

The entire XETV PID list is too long to show here but contains:
Elementary Stream PID 272 (0x0110) Teletext/VBI
Descriptor: VBI Data Descriptor
fb 08 ed ee ef f0 cd ce cf d0

Elementary Stream PID 273 (0x0111) ISO/IEC 13818-1 private_sections
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x54564731 (TVG1)
Descriptor: Private Data Indicator Descriptor
64 61 74 61 data

Elementary Stream PID 274 (0x0112) ISO/IEC 13818-1 private_sections
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x54564732 (TVG2)
Descriptor: Private Data Indicator Descriptor
64 61 74 61 data

Note that the format identifiers for TVG1 and TVG2 are identical to those shown tn Table 2.

The tuner card used is the Hauppauge HVR 1800 PCI which demodulates ATSC and QAM. The card is connected to an UHF bowtie and to TWC analog cable.
Unfortunately Tsreader refuses to work with the QAM mode of the HVR 1800 although the Tsreader compatible card list shows that it should and the proper Tsreader Haupauge dll is loaded. When I can get this problem sorted out I will examine the cable clear QAM of the local broadcasts carried in TWC cable.

bwall23

01-31-09, 10:44 PM

Delivering Data to TV Guide Consumer Electronic Devices
October 2008

http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/3d927cc0e5.pdfKen, Thanks much for the info.

For those CE units that rely on analog VBI info and that cannot decode digital TVGOS (I guess if we're OTA, we'll find out if we fit in that category on 2/18), this document appears to address cable. What happens on 2/18? Do we need to get a DTVPAL?

P.S. Is there any way for consumers to find out if their device supports the digital streams or only supports decoding analog VBI?

bwall23

01-31-09, 10:52 PM

The card is connected to an UHF bowtie and to TWC analog cable. Unfortunately Tsreader refuses to work with the QAM mode of the HVR 1800 although the Tsreader compatible card list shows that it should and the proper Tsreader Haupauge dll is loaded. When I can get this problem sorted out I will examine the cable clear QAM of the local broadcasts carried in TWC cable.Great info Peter, however, I'm wondering if (with TWC analog cable) you actually get any digital clear-QAM?

Ken H

01-31-09, 11:46 PM

Great info Peter, however, I'm wondering if (with TWC analog cable) you actually get any digital clear-QAM?Local HD.

catmother

02-01-09, 10:47 AM

Great info Peter, however, I'm wondering if (with TWC analog cable) you actually get any digital clear-QAM?

Ken is correct.

Yes, TWCSD transmits the local channels as clear QAM and as analog also.
In fact on the HDD250 each local broadcast shows up 4 times in the TVGOS. Analog OTA, DTV OTA, analog cable and DTV cable. An embarrasment of riches ?

Now as to tsreader, it still refuses to work with the HVR-1800 but it is now working with a WinTV-HVR-950Q. Because I don't have the cable channel mapping it is tedious to find the clear QAM channels in tsreader but I have located XETV and KGTV (NBC). So far no TVG PID data has shown up.

Here is the tsreader data for XETV CW6:
Program Number: 2006
PCR on PID 69 (0x0045)
PMT Version: 29
Service name:

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video
Elementary Stream PID 69 (0x0045)

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 72 (0x0048)

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 73 (0x0049)

Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x43554549 (CUEI)

Double clicking the thumbnail brings up the VLC player and there is CW6 playing live on the monitor.

Turns out the above is TWCSD analog as evidenced by the 5Mbs rate. But I now have XETV (CW6) DT. Tsreader tuner 91 (627 MHz) 14.56 Mbs and behold the TVG1 and TVG2 VBI data is present. This is the PID for TCG1:
Elementary Stream PID 2902 (0x0b56) ISO/IEC 13818-1 private_sections
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x54564731 (TVG1)
Descriptor: Private Data Indicator Descriptor
64 61 74 61 data

This convinces me that the XETV digital TVG data is passed by TWCSD.
And VLC player clearly shows XETV-DT as DTV.

Note to Ken H ... is this the proper thread for this info ? . I will link to this post in the Sony HDD 250/500 thread.

bwall23

02-04-09, 01:30 AM

Ken is correct.

Yes, TWCSD transmits the local channels as clear QAM and as analog also.
In fact on the HDD250 each local broadcast shows up 4 times in the TVGOS. Analog OTA, DTV OTA, analog cable and DTV cable. An embarrasment of riches ?

Now as to tsreader, it still refuses to work with the HVR-1800 but it is now working with a WinTV-HVR-950Q. Because I don't have the cable channel mapping it is tedious to find the clear QAM channels in tsreader but I have located XETV and KGTV (NBC). So far no TVG PID data has shown up.

Here is the tsreader data for XETV CW6:TSReader reads mpeg transport streamsProgram Number: 2006
PCR on PID 69 (0x0045)
PMT Version: 29
Service name:

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video
Elementary Stream PID 69 (0x0045)

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 72 (0x0048)

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 73 (0x0049)

Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x43554549 (CUEI)

Double clicking the thumbnail brings up the VLC player and there is CW6 playing live on the monitor.And that looks like data from TSReader, just like the one I used to useTurns out the above is TWCSD analog as evidenced by the 5Mbs rate.Please provide a link to where you got that idea from. I'M QUITE INTERESTED. If I didn't know any better, I would call it digital SD.But I now have XETV (CW6) DT. Tsreader tuner 91 (627 MHz) 14.56 Mbs and behold the TVG1 and TVG2 VBI data is present. This is the PID for TCG1:
Elementary Stream PID 2902 (0x0b56) ISO/IEC 13818-1 private_sections
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x54564731 (TVG1)
Descriptor: Private Data Indicator Descriptor
64 61 74 61 data

This convinces me that the XETV digital TVG data is passed by TWCSD.
And VLC player clearly shows XETV-DT as DTV.That, I agree with (TGFQ)

catmother

02-04-09, 07:04 PM

TSReader reads mpeg transport streams. And that looks like data from TSReader, just like the one I used to use. Please provide a link to where you got that idea from. I'M QUITE INTERESTED. If I didn't know any better, I would call it digital SD.

You are right. Chalk it up to my inexperience with Tsreader. Program 2006 is indeed digital SD. Excerpt:
Elementary Stream PID 69 (0x0045) MPEG-2 Video
MPEG Video: Bitrate 15.000 Mbps Resolution 528 x 480i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 4:3 Chroma Format 4:2:0.

The resolution misled me. At the outset I was under the impression that tsreader does not decode NTSC transmissions and then thought perhaps it did. The first impression must be correct.
Your opinion please...

Are there any utilities that decode NTSC data streams ?

bwall23

02-05-09, 01:11 AM

Are there any utilities that decode NTSC data streams ?TV sets with analog tuners. Seriously though, there is no data stream in an NTSC broadcast, since it's analog. Wiki on NTSC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC)

catmother

02-05-09, 01:36 PM

TV sets with analog tuners. Seriously though, there is no data stream in an NTSC broadcast, since it's analog. Wiki on NTSC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC)

Sorry, bad wording on my part.
What we need is Windows (or Linux) software to extract the VBI data from the demodulated Vestigial sideband video and decompose this into the teletext and Gemstar components. This software should operate with current capture devices such as the Hauppauge HVR series or the Kworld TVPlus or even the ATI 650.

The object is to ascertain the presence of TVGOS data during the VBI.

A casual web search shows many such capture devices for industrial use but no simple PC solution.

While the Sony HDD250/500 service menus will show the precense of VBI packets, it does not discriminate between teletext and Gemstar data.

Oh, well, we will know soon enough. All the San Diego broadcasters have reported that their analog transmitters will shutdown on Feb 17.
http://www.sbe36.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=278&Itemid=1

linkstur

02-07-09, 08:02 PM

Sorry, bad wording on my part.
What we need is Windows (or Linux) software to extract the VBI data from the demodulated Vestigial sideband video and decompose this into the teletext and Gemstar components. This software should operate with current capture devices such as the Hauppauge HVR series or the Kworld TVPlus or even the ATI 650.

The object is to ascertain the presence of TVGOS data during the VBI.

A casual web search shows many such capture devices for industrial use but no simple PC solution.

While the Sony HDD250/500 service menus will show the precense of VBI packets, it does not discriminate between teletext and Gemstar data.

Oh, well, we will know soon enough. All the San Diego broadcasters have reported that their analog transmitters will shutdown on Feb 17.

If you don't mind, I'd like to point out some technical issues.

VBI stands for Vertical Blanking Interval. Vestigial is a nice term, but has nothing to do with anything here...cannot be demodulated and is a term used to describe the sideband which is below the original carrier frequency and is deleted before transmission because it is redundant.

The Sony CAN discriminate between tele-text and Gemstar content.

And for bwall 23, there IS digital data in the VBI of analogue signals, usually for the closed captions. You can sometimes see it at the top of the sceen...the little white lines that seem to 'dance' around.

bwall23

02-07-09, 10:09 PM

bwall 23, there IS digital data in the VBI of analogue signals, usually for the closed captions. You can sometimes see it at the top of the sceen...the little white lines that seem to 'dance' around.linkstur, understand what you're trying to say, but it's broadcast in analog form and requires signal manipulation by a receiver to convert it to digital format. One could easily view it with an O'Scope or an older analog set with a vertical hold adjustment.

bwall23

02-08-09, 04:15 AM

Sure would be great if Ken reconsidered this request now. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11173635&&#post11173635)

catmother

02-08-09, 12:20 PM

If you don't mind, I'd like to point out some technical issues.

VBI stands for Vertical Blanking Interval. Vestigial is a nice term, but has nothing to do with anything here...cannot be demodulated and is a term used to describe the sideband which is below the original carrier frequency and is deleted before transmission because it is redundant.

Not so. The lower (vestigial sideband) is transmitted. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigial_sideband
See :Spectrum of a System M television channel with NTSC color" chart
(Courtesy bwall23)

Also, vestigial sideband modulation is a generic term used in NTSC to denote the modulation technique used, much as 8VSB is used to characterize the ATSC modulation technique.

When I referred to demodulating vestigial sideband it meant demodulating the transmitted NTSC signal, not just the lower sideband.

But enough of this, it is OT. This thread deals with TVGOS and I go not want to venture to far into extraneous territory, interesting though it may be.

I will post Feb 18 on the state of TVGOS in San Diego since all local broadcasters here have decided to shutdown their analog transmitters midnight Feb 17 with the possible exception of KPBS to allow 'pledge month' to be received by the 7% of the local market that decided to ignore 5 years of warnings.

My TVGOS equipped devices: HDD250 DVR, Sharp LC-37D5U LCD TV, Sony RDR-HX900 HDD/DVD recorder.

One of my sources: http://www.archive.org/details/televisionstanda00natirich
I have this book.
http://www.archive.org/stream/televisionstanda00natirich

Rammitinski

02-08-09, 02:22 PM

...with the possible exception of KPBS to allow 'pledge month' to be received by the 7% of the local market that decided to ignore 5 years of warnings.Yeah - ironic, since those are the people they're least likely to get any money from.

linkstur

02-08-09, 03:53 PM

Not so. The lower (vestigial sideband) is transmitted.

If you read the link that you posted, it says "Like most AM signals, the video carrier generates two sidebands, one above the carrier and one below. The sidebands are each 4.2 MHz wide. The entire upper sideband is transmitted, but only 750 kHz of the lower sideband, known as a vestigial sideband, is transmitted."

I've been a video engineer for 25 years and it has always irrated me when people thought they knew what they were talking about. I realize it's OT and won't say anything more about it.

avnstf

02-09-09, 12:26 AM

catmother

02-09-09, 12:18 PM

.

The sidebands are each 4.2 MHz wide. The entire upper sideband is transmitted, but only 750 kHz of the lower sideband, known as a vestigial sideband, is transmitted."

I am well aware of that. But in your earlier post you stated the lower sideband was deleted
That wording to me deleted means that there is no lower sideband transmitted at all. I took that literally.

I questioned your statement, not necessarily your knowledge.

avdiyer

02-09-09, 04:51 PM

What we need is Windows (or Linux) software to extract the VBI data from the demodulated Vestigial sideband video and decompose this into the teletext and Gemstar components. This software should operate with current capture devices such as the Hauppauge HVR series or the Kworld TVPlus or even the ATI 650.

The object is to ascertain the presence of TVGOS data during the VBI.

A casual web search shows many such capture devices for industrial use but no simple PC solution.

this brings up a fascinating question. is there any software currently available that could "read" the TVGOS stream from the capture device or a dump file and then display it in human readable format? as a matter of fact is there any specification of TVGOS available anywhere or is it a closed system? i did manage to look at some jpegs (JFIF header) with TSReader but it would be fun to play with it more. :D

oregonalex

02-09-09, 07:50 PM

I have DTVPal CECB configured in TVGOS mode with a Panasonic DMR-E95H DVR (analog TVGOS 7).

Until today, all I got was a message "There has been an error retrieving data" and no host channel and no apparent transmission of data that I could recognize on the diagnostics screens.

Today, I still have no lineup and no schedule, but the message changed to "No data available". The diagnostics has a host channel 0x28000028 (28 hex = 40 dec = our CBS affiliate). There is also about a thousand of received TypeB records (and a matching number of records in the 'Dummy' row). There is also a last update date of 2/9/09.

I can't really interpret the diagnostics precisely, but there is definitely stuff coming in that has not been coming in before.

Alex
Portland, Oregon

Ken H

02-09-09, 08:26 PM

Ken H

02-09-09, 08:28 PM

Sure would be great if Ken reconsidered this request now. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11173635&&#post11173635)

I have no problem with a dedicated TVGOS topic, probably in the HDTV Technical forum, and we could link to it.

Ken H

02-09-09, 08:28 PM

I can't really interpret the diagnostics precisely, but there is definitely stuff coming in that has not been coming in before.No!

oregonalex

02-09-09, 09:02 PM

I can't really interpret the diagnostics precisely, but there is definitely stuff coming in that has not been coming in before.
No!

What do you mean, No? I see it with my own eyes. It may have always been transmitted by the station, but today is the first time MY DVR has ever shown the host channel as anything else than 0x00000000 and has shown any TypeB records received (more now than in the morning):

http://www.cyber-strategy.org/priv/p1.jpg

http://www.cyber-strategy.org/priv/p2.jpg

Sorry about the PQ.

Alex
Portland, OR

avnstf

02-09-09, 09:51 PM

I hope this doesn't start a riot, but it LOOKS like someone from Houston may be getting v7 TVGOS setup data for his analog unit from the converted signal from his DTVPal...if he has actual program data tomorrow, that would be a felicitous first!
Cf. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15771516#post15771516
in the LG3410a thread, where we have been watching carefully for this...
yes!

today this guy has a picture from his Panasonic DVD recorder that has program listings and the TV Guide logo!!!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15775079#post15775079

oregonalex

02-09-09, 10:16 PM

yes!

I've just got a DTV channel lineup. No listings yet, but a valid lineup of primary channels only with a couple of stations missing.

Alex
Portland, Oregon

Ken H

02-09-09, 11:03 PM

What do you mean, No? I see it with my own eyes. Ei yi yi.

I started the topic. I'm the one who told the forum this would be happening.

I was making a sarcastic comment in regards to all the naysayers who questioned what I posted.

bwall23

02-09-09, 11:13 PM

I have no problem with a dedicated TVGOS topic, probably in the HDTV Technical forum, and we could link to it.Great! Since videobruce already started one, maybe we should use that?

There are so many threads under different forums discussing TVGOS, that it would be nice to have a CENTRAL HUB discussing only TVGOS specific info that links to all the TVGOS heavy threads on the board.

Ken H

02-09-09, 11:18 PM

Great! Since videobruce already started one, maybe we should use that?

There are so many threads under different forums discussing TVGOS, that it would be nice to have a CENTRAL HUB discussing only TVGOS specific info that links to all the TVGOS heavy threads on the board.

Sounds great. Please post all the links here.

avnstf

02-10-09, 12:34 AM

Ei yi yi.

I started the topic. I'm the one who told the forum this would be happening.

I was making a sarcastic comment in regards to all the naysayers who questioned what I posted.
Actually, Ken, I think the focus of your opening post was that analog-dependent devices like the Sony 250/500 would be fine without need of other devices....

This was reassuring for that device (and perhaps similar ones), for which there was already evidence that it wouldn't take a lot for it to continue working, since people (including me) had already demonstrated that it COULD get TVGOS data from CBS digital stations...

This didn't say much about devices that HAD to get their data from an analog station, and TVGOS had already been telling us all that we would all need a DTVPal for this, AND they had also said they would work by August or September....which obviously didn't happen!

So it's VERY reassuring for those with devices that REQUIRE analog TVGOS that the DTVPal may have started to work in a couple of areas...THAT's a new development (despite the very public assurances that TVGOS has been giving us for most of a year!)

bhull09

02-10-09, 10:57 PM

Quote from Ken earlier:

"I started the topic. I'm the one who told the forum this would be happening.

I was making a sarcastic comment in regards to all the naysayers who questioned what I posted."

[okay, I cannot find the place that lets me use quotes]
____________________________________________________________ _____
Ken,

I never doubted you from the beginning. My only issue was timing.

Unfortunately, now I don't get what happened. What has changed? How does this work?

Note that I am not a SONY owner and am unfamiliar with what a DTVPal does. It sounds like a DTV converter box. IF true, why does the person from Houston all of a sudden have a picture on his Panasonic DVD Recorder?

Avnstf indicates that the DVR may be getting v7 TVGOS setup data for his analog unit from the converted signal from his DTVPal. Why today and not yesterday?

I would appreciate any clarity you can provide.

P.S. I would make a snarky comment about why Bobby Hull was a much better player than Gordie Howe but I actually want you to answer so I will save it.

avnstf

02-11-09, 01:27 AM

...
Unfortunately, now I don't get what happened. What has changed? How does this work?
...
Avnstf indicates that the DVR may be getting v7 TVGOS setup data for his analog unit from the converted signal from his DTVPal. Why today and not yesterday?
...

The DTVPal has a special mode, called the "TVGOS mode"...in this mode, the Pal can convert and pass through a specifically tailored set of TVGOS data that is received digitally and then passes through to a TVGOS unit that requires one of the older forms of TVGOS data IN ANALOG FORM. Until the last few days, the specific form of TVGOS data that is needed for this pass-through was not being broadcast!

This has apparently now changed, at least in some areas of the country. In this special (TVGOS) mode, the Pal - after supplying the TVGOS data to the unit that requires - then just serves as a slave (a front-end) to that unit...e.g., an analog DVD recorder or even to a digital high-def recorder that still requires the TVGOS data in analog form. That unit can then tune the Pal to a station that it selects, and even records (in the case of a DVD or hard-drive recorder).

At least 3 people in different areas of the country have, since yesterday, reported success in using the Pal in this mode, which is completely different from the normal mode, where the Pal is a simple digital-to-analog converter that has nothing to do with the TVGOS data (except that, where a digital station is broadcasting the ordinary TVGOS data, the Pal will pick up its time signal from the PSIP time of that station).

ChrisS5

02-11-09, 07:38 AM

Where does all of this leave me?

I have a Sony DHG-HDD500 DVR. I am OTA only. I have trusted in the M8B that my equipment will work with the digital standard without any modifications/additional equipment.

Does this now mean that I need to go out and purchase a DTV Pal in order to get the TVGOS? (I know that there is a backdoor way to force the Sony to use a digital host. I just feel that since the Sony does not accept/find the digital host on its own without being forced, there may be issues with this solution in the long term.)

videobruce

02-11-09, 08:39 AM

I only 'played' with this 'DTVPal' once. The first thing I noticed was the almost instant retrival of data. Another point, AFAIK this will only retrive OTA station programming listings, not CATV services since it has no QAM tuner. Anyone confirm this?

Ken H

02-11-09, 10:34 AM

WS65711

02-11-09, 10:45 AM

^^^
The only thing scary about this statement is the "should" part.............. :D

hcady

02-11-09, 02:24 PM

Yesterday my guide was reset again. This time KQED 9.1 digital cable was in the number one spot, in the past it has been KGO 7 analog. This may indicate a change in the host for comcast in the south bay. I expected KPIX 5.1 to be the new host. All 8 days of listings were present.

http://www.spiffspace.com/TVGOS_Training_Manual.pdf
NOTE: As part of the agreement that Gemstar – TV Guide has with the Host stations to
include the TVGOS data in the broadcast signal, the Host channel receives “top billing” in the
program list. Therefore, for reference purposes, you can determine the Host channel since it is
the top most channel in the default program list"

I have the Sony dvr.

bwall23

02-11-09, 10:02 PM

once the software is in your areameaning TVGOS patch code software?

avnstf

02-11-09, 10:13 PM

meaning TVGOS patch code software?
Well, the Sony gets its version 8 TVGOS firmware updated periodically.

I would speculate that he means (OR those he is speaking with at Gemstar mean) that there will be an upgrade that obviates the unit's current preference for analog TVGOS data AND presumably prevents the TVGOS firmware from resetting to the old firmware in the event the TV Guide in a unit is reset (since currently it resets to firmware that DOES NOT include a digital capability)!

I hope Ken will correct me if I am wrong...

bwall23

02-11-09, 10:40 PM

Sounds great. Please post all the links here.All what links? I think we hava a mis-communication.

bwall23

02-11-09, 11:36 PM

Well, the Sony gets its version 8 TVGOS firmware updated periodically.

I would speculate that he means (OR those he is speaking with at Gemstar mean) that there will be an upgrade that obviates the unit's current preference for analog TVGOS data AND presumably prevents the TVGOS firmware from resetting to the old firmware in the event the TV Guide in a unit is reset (since currently it resets to firmware that DOES NOT include a digital capability)!

I hope Ken will correct me if I am wrong...Has anyone else experienced their reply's disappearing?
Well, the Sony gets its version 8 TVGOS firmware updated periodically.As does my Mits TV w/v8.

I would speculate that he means (OR those he is speaking with at Gemstar mean) that there will be an upgrade that obviates the unit's current preference for analog TVGOS data AND presumably prevents the TVGOS firmware from resetting to the old firmware in the event the TV Guide in a unit is reset (since currently it resets to firmware that DOES NOT include a digital capability)!Exactly what I was saying. When I had the exact same TVGOS version as you (08.02.44/08.06.44), but on my Mits TV, I was able to 'force' a digital CBS host on it. Now that I have updated the TVGOS base version (came with the Mits Netcommand FW update) to 08.01.71, I have been unable to get a digital host channel. I just posted this a few minutes ago, but my post was lost. Must be something going on with the server or software tonight.

Rammitinski

02-12-09, 03:02 AM

All what links? I think we hava a mis-communication.The links to all the different TVGOS-related threads on the forum here.

PhilB

02-12-09, 10:02 AM

Ken H

02-13-09, 02:23 AM

This sums up my concerns perfectly.

Until the behavior of the DHGs changes on a factory reset, or the default firmware is somehow updated on the DHGs then we are not completely covered going forward.

I doubt that we will ever know for sure unless a DHG owner can somehow get ahold of the person at Gemstar doing the work. I don't want to dismiss Ken's contributions to the effort but I don't think he fully comprehends the issue with the DHGs and thus could be giving misinterpretted assurances of future success.

-phil
My comments are solely based on what I've been told by those directly involved.

ddartmouth

02-13-09, 09:48 AM

Has anyone else experienced their reply's disappearing?
As does my Mits TV w/v8.

Exactly what I was saying. When I had the exact same TVGOS version as you (08.02.44/08.06.44), but on my Mits TV, I was able to 'force' a digital CBS host on it. Now that I have updated the TVGOS base version (came with the Mits Netcommand FW update) to 08.01.71, I have been unable to get a digital host channel. I just posted this a few minutes ago, but my post was lost. Must be something going on with the server or software tonight.

So I'm new to this and just want to clarify what seems to be the concensus here ...

Here's my summary:
I have a Toshiba TV with base version 08.01.53. My TVGOS disappeared this past weekend. I'm on Boston-area Comcast and I think perhaps (given the proximity to 2/17) they stopped broadcasting the analog feeds directly and started converting the digital feeds to analog themselves.

And here's what I've done/tried so far:

I've done a complete reset of the TV (and the TVGOS via 653274147) and have had no success getting any more data. It's now in state 08.01.53/00.00.00/ (i.e. no loaded firmware).

I've tried to force it to use a digital host (as described here) with no luck.

I've communicated with WBZ (our local CBS station) and they confirmed they are sending TVGOS data on both their analog and digital broadcasts.

So this is what I want to confirm:

bwall23 seems to be saying that starting from 08.01.53 I shouldn't be able to get data from a digital transmission. I need to get updated firmware to get to a state where my system can read the digital data.

Thus if my conjecture about Comcast is correct (i.e. they are no longer sending the analog broadcasts directly), I need to get TVGOS working with an OTA configuration, so I can read analog data and get my firmware up to a state where it can read digital data.

Is that correct?

Thanks,
ddartmouth

Kelson

02-13-09, 09:56 AM

Just a note to those unfamiliar with the DTV Pal CECB, because it too often gets omitted when discussing the DTV Pal's mode to convert digital TVGOS to analog TVGOS. The receiving device (DVD recorder etc.) has to have a way to remotely control the DTV Pal and change it's channels -- typically an IR blaster. For example, all TVGOS equipped Panasonic DVD recorders with HDD have an IR blaster to enable control of a cable STB and thus can control the DTV Pal. If the analog TVGOS device does not have that capability, the DTV Pal in TVGOS mode will be of no use to it.

dhg

02-14-09, 11:20 AM

My TVGOS disappeared this past weekend. I'm on Boston-area Comcast and I think perhaps (given the proximity to 2/17) they stopped broadcasting the analog feeds directly and started converting the digital feeds to analog themselves.

That's exactly right. In eastern MA, Comcast has been doing this incrementally on a channel-by-channel and town-by-town basis for several months. Here in Plymouth, for example, they pulled the plug on FOX 25 analog (the previous source of our TVGOS info) in early December and substituted D/A-converted FOX 25 digital (with no TVGOS info). I have not been able to lock onto any analog TVGOS info since then, despite disinformation from posters in various threads that TVGOS in the Boston area is now being carried by analog 25, analog 2, and analog 4. They can't all be right.

Rammitinski

02-14-09, 08:17 PM

Depends on the guide versions. v7 uses one (I don't know if anything older uses the same or what), and v8 & v9 use another.

At least that's how it's been for a long time (and still is) as far as analog OTA goes (actually, there was a time where a few channels were carrying it).

Cable (here) used multiple analog channels, too, at least until people have been reporting it gone more recently.

avnstf

02-19-09, 03:14 PM

Hi...as owner of a digital high-def DVR (the LG3410a) that will only accept TVGOS data in analog form, I have been carefully following developments related to the DTVPal's use for converting digital TVGOS data to an analog form that is useful for a digital device. I have been particularly interested in posts on this topic since some digital stations around the country apparently began, around 10 days ago, broadcasting the special(?) TVGOS data required for the DTVPal's TVGOS mode to function.

I have not looked at all threads related to use of this mode, and in particular at none of the threads devoted to purely analog devices, so I don't know much about how these devices are faring with the Pal in this mode. What concerns me is that I have seen NO case of complete success in using the Pal's TVGOS mode in conjunction with a high-def device with a DIGITAL tuner or recorder.

In the LG3410a thread, of most interest to me, the one person reporting initially getting some TVGOS listings via the Pal has had only limited success as of the last report. And the one example (to my knowledge) reported in the DTVPal thread of someone using the Pal with a digital high-def TV (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15858559#post15858559) indicated that he (or she) could get TVGOS LISTINGS, but in the setup specified by the Pal manual, his TV was turned into an analog TV, i.e., it only got signal through the Pal, which was of course analog.

The question is whether there is a mode of using the DTVPal for receiving analog TVGOS data that still permits the use of a digital device (such as a TV or DVR) AS A DIGITAL DEVICE...is not, we are screwed (not to mention grossly misled by the GEMSTAR people).

If we are screwed by the normal setup for the DTVPal in TVGOS mode, there might, of course, be an intermediate operating state, i.e., using the Pal in the TVGOS mode and setting the digital device to the "fake" zip code, but NOT changing it into "cable box" mode or using the DTVPal as a front end, but only as a parallel signal source (in particular of the converted CBS digital channel). Perhaps we would then have a TV Guide screen with program data for the "fake" channel numbers, but would have to tune manually or (more problematically) set recordings manually, rather than using the TV Guide as designed.

If THAT's the way the Pal will work with digital devices, we are only MOSTLY screwed!

I still hope this isn't the way things turn out, but the signs so far are not too hopeful.

In any event, I think we need a thread on Digital HD devices, TVGOS, and the DTVPal!!! OR on the DTVPal with digital HD devices using analog TVGOS to have a central point where this issue is discussed. THIS thread could serve this purpose if the first suggested title is employed...just a thought. We could, of course, also reinstate the DTVPal and TVGOS thread tht some time ago was buried in the general DTVPal thread...or to be more precise, we could call it the DTVPal used in TVGOS mode.

It would also be useful (and unusually responsible) for Gemstar to indicate HOW the DTVPal is to be used with these devices, since the Pal manual acts like they don't exist!!!

videobruce

02-20-09, 01:51 PM

As part of the agreement that Gemstar – TV Guide has with the Host stations to
include the TVGOS data in the broadcast signal, the Host channel receives “top billing” in the
program list. Therefore, for reference purposes, you can determine the Host channel since it is
the top most channel in the default program listNot in this market. The PBS affilate has been the host station in this market, but it isn't at the top of the list, just mixed in with everyone else.

catmother

02-20-09, 07:21 PM

Not in this market. The PBS affilate has been the host station in this market, but it isn't at the top of the list, just mixed in with everyone else.

Also the case here in San Diego. My three TVGOS equipped devices show 1:0-11 as host. TWC analog cable channel for KPBS. Never at the top of the list.

Still fully populated however.

mabuttra

02-20-09, 09:40 PM

Hi,

Could the Magic 8-Ball be right? Ask again Later.:)

I live in Wichita, Kansas. I have a Sony DHG-250 that is connected over the air. However, on my upstairs TV I have a panasonic DMR-E95H Analog DVD recorder with TVGOS built-in. It is connected to Cox cable. I have not received the guide listings on this DVR since August of 2007 (yes, 2007). My host channel has shown as 0x0. I communicated recently with macrovision because they reported that the TVGOS on Cox in Wichita was "known to be working". Well after giving them some information off my unit, they reported back that it wasn't working because they had already made the transition to digital, so it wouldn't work until after the transition. I was skeptical that it would ever work again... but tonight, I felt a faint pulse from my DMR-E95H. When I went into the TV-Guide, it prompted me to select between two channel line ups. Although everything still shows as No Listing, I'm hoping that the TVGOS on my E95H may actually be coming back to life. I checked the host channel and it is now reporting as 0xC (could it be channel 12 which is our CBS affiliate?). I then went downstairs to my Sony, and connected it to cable, and tuned to cable channel 12 (did you know that you can tune to cable channels even if you use the box OTA only? You just enter the channel a second time, and you can hear the relay click, and that is the cable channel). I did a G* Test on channel 12, and the VBI Test passed. I'm holding my breath that tomorrow morning for the first time in a year and a half, I'll see guide data.

Mark

avnstf

02-20-09, 09:54 PM

Hi,

Could the Magic 8-Ball be right? Ask again Later.:)
glad to hear some cable is getting better at getting TVGOS, but I think the discussion in this thread is aimed at how digital high-def devices that have needed analog TVGOS will be working with OTA digital TVGOS...

mabuttra

02-20-09, 10:59 PM

You're probably right. I've been following this thread on two fronts, one is in relation to my DHG, and the other is the possibility that my analog DVR could someday start getting guide data again. I really thought that the DTV transition would mean the end of the analog stream of TVGOS. I'm thrilled that it didn't end even if it is over cable only.

Mark

bwall23

02-22-09, 04:29 AM

Sounds great. Please post all the links here.OK, here you go... TVGOS ( TV Guide On Screen ) Devices (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122914)

gmucklow

02-22-09, 12:38 PM

I set up the DTVPal+ converter box I bought at Sears as a separate RF channel 3 input (instead of cable box) on my Toshiva 50HPX95 TV with firewire attached Toshiba Symbio AVHD, and the DTVPal+ successfully downloaded both OTA and "cable ready" (not cable box) channel lineups and listings into the TV's TVGOS. This was using the DTVPal+ channel 3 analog TVGOS data converted by the DTVPal+ from the digital OTA TVGOS host channel that will be the only TVGOS data source available after the digital transition. Our TVs must use an analog channel source as the TVGOS host channel according to Toshiba. So the DTVPal+ converter box will keep the TVGOS system working after the digital transition in case firmware updates and download patches don't work on everything. TVGOS clock data is required to record HDTV using the Toshiba Symbio with the Toshiba 50HPX95.

It turns out there are two different setups for the DTVPal/+ -- Here is what I have found out so far:

1) If you have a device (TV, VCR, DVD Recorder, DVR) with an analog NTSC ONLY tuner that depends on an analog NTSC signal for TVGOS data, then set up the DTVPal+ on the device according to the instructions in the manual -- with the DTVPal+ set to TVGOS mode as a Scientific Atlanta cable box using the DTVPal+ manual zip code. The analog ONLY tuner in your device will be useless after the digital transition, and your device must use the tuner in the DTVPal+ as a cable box. This setup will use the Scientific Atlanta channel numbers. I think the magic zip code in the DTVPal manual puts ALL channels into the "Cable Box" listing so that analog only devices can receive OTA channels using the DTVPal+ after the digital transition -- and this setup limits all channels to 480i.

Unfortunately, what the DTVPal+ manual does NOT tell you is this:

2) If you have a device, like my Toshiba TV/Symbio, with an ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuner that depends on an analog NTSC signal for the TVGOS data, do NOT set up the DTVPal+ as a cable box. Connect the channel 3 or 4 RF output to your device as a separate input RF input, and use your normal zip code on your device (not the zip code from the DTVPal+ manual). Using the DTVPAL+ remote, set the DTVPal+ to the digital TVGOS host channel for your area -- see

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos

and be sure to select the TVGOS mode from the DTVPal+ menu. Thus, the DTVPAL+ just appears as an analog channel to your TV. This should allow the OTA ATSC and cable tuners in your device to function normally with the TVGOS using normal channel numbers -- allowing the TVGOS to control HD DVRs like the Toshiba Symbio.

Before the digital transition, It would be a good idea to shut off your analog TVGOS host channel in the TVGOS channel editor to make it harder for the TVGOS to find compared to the DTVPal+ channel. Also, leave the device tuned to the DTVPAL+ analog channel when you shut it off -- especially overnight.

BOZOO

02-22-09, 05:26 PM

"Connect the channel 3 or 4 RF output to your device as a separate input RF input,"

Do you use a combiner/spliter to feed the channel 3/4 into your TV or the pass through on the pal?

Thanks Gregg

Michael1138

02-23-09, 03:54 PM

avnstf

02-23-09, 05:03 PM

FWIW, I had to reset my TVGOS this past weekend on both my Sony 250 and 500 due to lock-up issues. It did not revert to 8.01.42. It kept TVGOS at version 8.06.44. I did the reset through the service menu, not through the setup menu via the number code. It locked onto the analog TVGOS host channel after the reset.
hmm...well, I think there are different kinds of resets...a factory reset is, of course, the most drastic and probably only necessary when all else has failed and the owner things this is the only option left...in that case at least, the unit probably reverts to the original firmware version...on the other hand, I am pretty sure some people have had this happen to them inadvertently...and I think I did it once using a code that as explicitly for resetting the TV Guide, completely unlike the milder resets I have seen at other times.

TheRatPatrol

02-24-09, 08:24 AM

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos
If your local CBS isn't carrying the TVGOS, then how is anyone going to get the the DTVPal to work?

My local PBS currently carries the TVGOS info, but I'm not getting any guide info past Friday.

Rammitinski

02-24-09, 03:10 PM

If your local CBS isn't carrying the TVGOS, then how is anyone going to get the the DTVPal to work?PSIP data. It's designed to receive and work on both or either.

WS65711

02-24-09, 03:35 PM

PSIP data. It's designed to receive and work on both or either.

Does PSIP carry data for 8 days into the future? :confused:

Rammitinski

02-24-09, 03:48 PM

Rarely you'll get maybe three days. But not usually.

Budget_HT

02-24-09, 11:15 PM

Each local TV station decides how much future PSIP program guide data they will provide. There is a minimum requirement they are all supposed to meet, but not all do.

Even if the stations provided many days of program guide data, many digital tuners lack sufficient storage to maintain that much guide data.

videobruce

02-25-09, 07:44 AM

many digital tuners lack sufficient storage to maintain that much guide data.With the cost of memory for the past few years, that should not be a problem. After all, it is just text. :rolleyes:

bootymonger

02-26-09, 08:48 PM

You guys are always helpful... it took months of waiting, but now I've got a DTVPal+ feeding my Panny E85H the digital TVGOS data.

Detailed post here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15924398#post15924398

hzrinaz

03-09-09, 05:50 PM

bwall23

03-09-09, 06:00 PM

I know this isnt really the right place, but you guys seem to know a lot about TVGOS so I thought Id ask as Im not getting a resolution elsewhere. I just had Direct TV installed last. My receiver is a standard receiver d12-100. I have a Toshiba RD-XS35 DVR/DVD that at has the TV Guide online. To set it up, it needs to find the receiver code from the box. Fist thing it asks, is the manufacturer, whuch Direct TV is not an option so I selected unlisted. Then it asks me to put the cable box on channel 2, which the receiver says is not an allowed channel. Anyone know how to get this working here please?I don't have Direct TV, but this looks like it may help (http://www.macrovision.com/support/9563.htm) and this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14264352), but mostly this Installation Guide (click Resources) (http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvr/product.asp?model=RD-XS35)

Rammitinski

03-10-09, 02:52 AM

The only recorders that have TVGOS, with the ability to download guide data for DirecTV, are the Panasonic EH55 and the EH75.

Otherwise, unless you can find a code that'll change the channels on the tuner with the IR blaster, you'll have to see if your tuner has the ability to change channels on it's own, then set the timers manually on the recorder and the tuner to coincide.

(Actually, if you can get the guide info OTA, you can still get it for the cable/satellite channels - or at least some of them if the guide version is lower than V8. But you'll just have the info - you won't be able to program recordings through the guide - you'll still have to do that manually. But since you already get that guide info from Direct, that would be redundant, unless your satellite guide info doesn't go out 7-8 days. Plus, once the analogs are cut off for good, you'll lose that anyway).

bwall23

03-11-09, 02:43 AM

Rammitinski

03-11-09, 04:36 AM

A few people here have said they've gotten it through their Direct tuner, without having an antenna hooked up and being setup for OTA, but nobody seems to know quite how that works.

As far as using OTA for the guide info you have to choose "Direct" and "OTA", along with using an antenna, and you will get the Direct channels downloaded with the corresponding channel numbers (this is also the most proven, dependable method for using it with Direct as a source).

As far as I know, only those two v9 Panny models will work with Direct - the v9 Toshiba recorders, for example, will not.

lolwaut

03-11-09, 08:56 AM

forgive me for this question. i have read through this entire thread and am still unclear on whether or not i am going to need a DTVPal+ to get the TVGOS data. i have a sony kdl-52w4100 with built in TVGOS v9. the set has a built in ATSC/NTSC/QAM and i have standard cable (not digital, no box, my coax goes from my wall directly to my tv). i have not been able to get TVGOS to work since i bought the set (a week ago). will a DTVPal+ be required to receive the TVGOS data or will i eventually receive it from my cable provider? according to http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos , there is a verified TVGOS host channel in my area as of 2/2/09. im sorry but i am brand new to all of this and never even heard of TVGOS until i bought this TV... help is appreciated... thank you!

The OP states that "A solution is currently in the final stages of testing that will assure existing TVGOS analog dependent devices (for example the Sony DHG-HDD250/500) future compatibility with TVGOS & Digital TV". Since my device has both a digital and analog tuner, does this mean that the DTVPal will not be required?

UPDATE: I just checked my TVGOS for the hell of it and IT'S WORKING as of 9:30AM 3/11/09 with standard brighthouse cable in tampa, florida!

HoustonPerson

03-11-09, 09:57 AM

Our TVGOS in Houston died about 36 hours ago (PBS analogue source). Hopefully it will wake up in a day or two; but I am not holding my breath. Our CBS here is low power and in RF conflict, and about 35 miles away. We may not be able to receive until after June 12th thanks to the FCC screw up.

Kelson

03-11-09, 10:05 AM

We may not be able to receive until after June 12th thanks to the FCC screw up.It wasn't the FCC that pushed hard on Congress to trash the 2/17 deadline and push it out to 6/12. Then again, when 6/12 approaches don't hold your breath that date will be firm either. There still may be a couple people out there who have not gotten the message yet.

BOZOO

03-11-09, 10:11 AM

videobruce

03-11-09, 11:11 AM

A few people here have said they've gotten it through their Direct tuner, without having an antenna hooked up and being setup for OTA, but nobody seems to know quite how that works.Having their host channel close enough that an antenna wasn't needed.

HoustonPerson

03-11-09, 11:30 AM

It wasn't the FCC that pushed hard on Congress to trash the 2/17 deadline and push it out to 6/12. Then again, when 6/12 approaches don't hold your breath that date will be firm either. There still may be a couple people out there who have not gotten the message yet.

Yes I know, I was just being nice. The FCC had its orders and directives which came from somewhere else. BTW there are still ten's of thousands converter boxes throughout Houston for sale................no one is buying, they don't need them and don't want them.

jmonier

03-11-09, 01:03 PM

Yes I know, I was just being nice. The FCC had its orders and directives which came from somewhere else. BTW there are still ten's of thousands converter boxes throughout Houston for sale................no one is buying, they don't need them and don't want them.

Not necessarily. The supply of coupons had dried up. That was a major reason that the deadline was extended. Now expired coupons are being re-issued and there might even be new funds for additional coupons.

Unfortunately, many people will still be surprised when their analog TV goes away on 6/12.

dattier

03-11-09, 11:42 PM

Unfortunately, many people will still be surprised when their analog TV goes away on 6/12.Many people will be pleasantly surprised when their analog TV goes away on June 12. A lot of us are pessimistic that analog will actually end then without yet another postponement.

jmonier

03-12-09, 09:58 AM

Many people will be pleasantly surprised when their analog TV goes away on June 12.* A lot of us are pessimistic that analog will actually end then without yet another postponement.

That's certainly true and I'm among them but it's not to the point.

HTMVinnie

03-12-09, 10:39 PM

2) If you have a device, like my Toshiba TV/Symbio, with an ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuner that depends on an analog NTSC signal for the TVGOS data, do NOT set up the DTVPal+ as a cable box. Connect the channel 3 or 4 RF output to your device as a separate input RF input, and use your normal zip code on your device (not the zip code from the DTVPal+ manual). Using the DTVPAL+ remote, set the DTVPal+ to the digital TVGOS host channel for your area -- see

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos

and be sure to select the TVGOS mode from the DTVPal+ menu. Thus, the DTVPAL+ just appears as an analog channel to your TV. This should allow the OTA ATSC and cable tuners in your device to function normally with the TVGOS using normal channel numbers -- allowing the TVGOS to control HD DVRs like the Toshiba Symbio.

Decided to give this a try with TVGOS version 08.01.41 built into my Sharp AQUOS LC-45GD7U. Had it working with analog cable which I discontinued and am receiving OTA only. My local analog PBS station has too much snow to receive reliable guide data and the diagnostics showed errors for nearly all the packets received.

So I picked up a DTVPal Plus at Sears, went through the initial setup, tuned to the CBS channel in my market (78 to 80 signal strength with no closed captioning errors) and enabled the TVGOS / Guide + feature.

Unfortunately, I have not received clock data, channel lineups or listings after having the TV tuned to analog channel 3 and off for about 7 hours last night and 9 hours today. The reception slicing does show some data including BadPMW 127, BCorr 1048 and CBad 6. The host channel is still blank. There are current dates in some the diagnostic info. which I think is coming from the VBI data.

I also did a couple of things like resetting the guide and searching for VBI data using the diagnostic codes in the hope it helps the TVGOS 'kick in.'

Worst thing about TVGOS compared other types of guides is that you have to have the TV off and wait for many hours / overnight before checking if any progress has been made. Need to be patient I guess.

Will update this post yea or nay after giving it what I think is going to be many days to know for sure. Would really like to corroborate gmucklow's success with those 'not quite ready for the DTV-transition' TVGOS implementations.

29 days and counting until my Sears return period elapses.

el gran chico

03-13-09, 11:39 PM

I really like the digital TVGOS I get on my DTVpal DVR, but I only get data for 10 of the 25 stations in memory. I'm using the right zip code. Is there any way to troubleshoot why I don't get the other 15? :confused:

HoustonPerson

03-14-09, 07:11 AM

videobruce

03-14-09, 07:29 AM

HoustonPerson

03-15-09, 05:45 PM

el gran chico; PM me (your PM's are turn off).

HoustonPerson; From what I have read in the dedicated thread, it is working. FWIW, it's not working here with either of my TVGOS devices (both of which are suppose to be capable).

I have not yet heard back from one that says it is working? About 6 people have told me it is not working in Houston yet? I still have not heard back from the local CBS station to confirm it is working?

HTMVinnie

03-15-09, 07:13 PM

el gran chico; PM me (your PM's are turn off).

HoustonPerson; From what I have read in the dedicated thread, it is working. FWIW, it's not working here with either of my TVGOS devices (both of which are suppose to be capable).

My theory about analog TVGOS working with the DTVpal plus...

I'm in Denver, CO and using the DTVpal plus (reception is not good enough to get data via my local analog PBS station) and have not had any success yet. I think there's a different type of data needed for backward compatibility with the analog-only TVGOS and it is still being rolled out by market. So far, looks like Toronto ON, Minneapolis MN and Houston TX are receiving listings (Minneapolis and Houston are top 20 markets as well).

I plan on keep the pal plus hooked up and hoping for guide data one of these months...

HoustonPerson

03-19-09, 09:44 AM

http://tvguideonscreen.com/company/newscenter/pressreleases/1434_10852.htm

Besides just 8 days they get Chumoku-Bangumi

I would take it without Chumoku-Bangumi; either way!

videobruce

03-19-09, 09:46 AM

Oh, it's the old Chumoku-Bangumi feature. :eek:
(or Chum-Bang for short)

TNG

03-23-09, 07:30 AM

Is anyone receiving solid reliable Clock Time and 8 Day Guide Downloads in a 100% digital OTA environment; no analogue stations in the area?

I have a Sony DHG-HDD500 - generally it does not appear to be working for anyone?
I have 2 DHG-HDD250's and when I went home last week from a trip here in NY I discovered that both were not recieving any guide info anymore.

I have tried to force the units to go to the San Francisco CBS station and the Sacramento CBS station (both the analog stations) with no luck. I also just did a basic Non Volitle Memory reset on one and let it find it's own guide station off of the Zip Code, no luck there either. I am using basic cable at the moment. I can't even get the clocks to find the time on the things.

While I am interested in the DTVpal, will it work for me?

HoustonPerson

03-23-09, 07:46 AM

I have 2 DHG-HDD250's and when I went home last week from a trip here in NY I discovered that both were not recieving any guide info anymore.

I have tried to force the units to go to the San Francisco CBS station and the Sacramento CBS station (both the analog stations) with no luck. I also just did a basic Non Volitle Memory reset on one and let it find it's own guide station off of the Zip Code, no luck there either. I am using basic cable at the moment. I can't even get the clocks to find the time on the things.

While I am interested in the DTVpal, will it work for me?

1. Call Sony support 800-222-7669 - you have to get through first line support to a "Support Specialist". Request the "Firmware Upgrade" for the DTV transition and get placed on the waiting list; request to be notified by email when it is ready. The more people in the US that call the quicker this will get done.

2. Local stations have to have full implementation of TV Guide. It appears a very small percentage of stations have completed that process - CBS and Macrovision are working to solve the problem. Hopefully most will be completed prior to June 12th? Macrovision is also working with most major Cable companies to solve the problems.

TheRatPatrol

03-23-09, 09:14 AM

1. Call Sony support 800-222-7669 - you have to get through first line support to a "Support Specialist". Request the "Firmware Upgrade" for the DTV transition and get placed on the waiting list; request to be notified by email when it is ready. The more people in the US that call the quicker this will get done.

2. Local stations have to have full implementation of TV Guide. It appears a very small percentage of stations have completed that process - CBS and Macrovision are working to solve the problem. Hopefully most will be completed prior to June 12th? Macrovision is also working with most major Cable companies to solve the problems.
Just curious if you know, but how exactly are they going to upgrade these units? Are they going to send thumb drives to everyone with the software on it?

HoustonPerson

03-23-09, 10:35 AM

Just curious if you know, but how exactly are they going to upgrade these units? Are they going to send thumb drives to everyone with the software on it?

The Sony techs I spoke with did not know for certain, they implied that the "real correction to firmware" - "had to come from Sony" and "not Macrovision". To me that would imply a thumb drive. The two techs I spoke with did not think they good get the corrections via Macrovison DL.......but they were not certain about that either.

TNG

03-23-09, 06:29 PM

That is some good news at least. I will call Sony and see what they say.

I could see them sending the software update by e-mail.

Scooper

03-23-09, 06:35 PM

The Sony techs I spoke with did not know for certain, they implied that the "real correction to firmware" - "had to come from Sony" and "not Macrovision". To me that would imply a thumb drive. The two techs I spoke with did not think they good get the corrections via Macrovison DL.......but they were not certain about that either.

I'll bet it will be more like "download new firmware and put on a thumbdrive in a directory called /install" kind of thing.

rockin robin

03-23-09, 10:19 PM

QUOTE:
"1. Call Sony support 800-222-7669 - you have to get through first line support to a "Support Specialist". Request the "Firmware Upgrade" for the DTV transition and get placed on the waiting list; request to be notified by email when it is ready. The more people in the US that call the quicker this will get done."

Do you know if any other manufacturers besides Sony will be providing these software/firmware updates? Does the Sony upgrade address the analog/digital transition for analog units? I don't own one of these Sony units, but I do own two analog-dependent DVRs so I was just curious.

I live in South Florida on West Palm Beach's Comcast service area. I have expanded basic analog service-no box. My TVGOS has been barely working at all since mid-January. However, there is hope in my area!. I am reasonably sure that my local CBS and PBS stations, Comcast and Macrovision are ALL actually talking to each other to try and get these issues resolved!!!!

Last week I emailed them the Macrovision PDF document "Delivering Data to TV Guide Consumer Electronic Devices" which I found in several places on this forum. http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/3d927cc0e5.pdf

For those that may not know, this document outlines TVGOS/Macrovision's commitment to preserving the operation of analog-dependent devices after the analog shutdown. It also details the specific process required by each provider for the preservation of the analog signal. It is an intricate puzzle and all the pieces need to fit together just right for this to work. Like I said, at least all my guys appear to be talking to each other!

Hopefully, there will be a resolution soon.
I really miss my DVRs. :(

Robin

lesterl

03-23-09, 10:26 PM

Wonder if they will include collection of PSIP data for those who wont recieve the TVGOS data?

Rammitinski

03-24-09, 01:46 AM

I'll bet it will be more like "download new firmware and put on a thumbdrive in a directory called /install" kind of thing.More like "send it in because only we can do it, and here's your bill for $250.00". ;)

HoustonPerson

03-24-09, 06:50 AM

QUOTE:

Do you know if any other manufacturers besides Sony will be providing these software/firmware updates? Does the Sony upgrade address the analog/digital transition for analog units? I don't own one of these Sony units, but I do own two analog-dependent DVRs so I was just curious.

Robin

I do not know about other manufacturers.

On the Sony DHGHDD250/500 analogue/digital transition.........these units have both analoge and digital tuners; but currently the way the unit is made it can only process TVGOS data from analogue sources. Basically a insane situation; because at the same time it is an excellent "HD" recorder! Sort of like having the best Lexus made - but you can't find "tires" for it anywhere! What good is a Lexus without tires?

HoustonPerson

03-24-09, 07:01 AM

Wonder if they will include collection of PSIP data for those who wont recieve the TVGOS data?

In regard to the Sony boxes, I would say "no". Assuming both Macrovision and Sony make all systems work? The USA coverage would be fairly complete; about equal to the older analogue only TVGOS downloads.

WS65711

03-24-09, 09:37 AM

I do not know about other manufacturers.

On the Sony DHGHDD250/500 analogue/digital transition.........these units have both analoge and digital tuners; but currently the way the unit is made it can only process TVGOS data from analogue sources............

I'm not looking to start an argument, but this statement as worded is untrue, or at least incomplete. The Sony can process digital TVGOS data to aquire program listings by means of the G*test. This indicates to me that at least some of the functionality is there.

HoustonPerson

03-24-09, 06:45 PM

I'm not looking to start an argument, but this statement as worded is untrue, or at least incomplete. The Sony can process digital TVGOS data to aquire program listings by means of the G*test. This indicates to me that at least some of the functionality is there.

Yes it is true; a Lexus can still have a perfect AC System and Radio, but without tires it will not go anywhere. Currently the Sony box is non-functional in a 100% digital environment, there are some owners that have reported TVGOS is now working for them again, because a analogue station in their area is sending out TVGOS again, which the Sony box can process.

avnstf

03-24-09, 07:03 PM

Yes it is true; a Lexus can still have a perfect AC System and Radio, but without tires it will not go anywhere. Currently the Sony box is non-functional in a 100% digital environment, there are some owners that have reported TVGOS is now working for them again, because a analogue station in their area is sending out TVGOS again, which the Sony box can process.
My Sony switched from analog PBS host to (blank) host channel (during which time PBS analog had not vbi packets, though analog CBS DID) for about 10 days, during which it received programs listings consistently...

After the recent several days with no listings, it has switched BACK to PBS 9 as host channel, but no new listings as yet...

Maybe it's more like it HAS tires, but no way to add air...

HoustonPerson

03-24-09, 07:07 PM

Flat tires and sometimes it gets stuck in Park.........but the AC and Radio are the best in the world.

I do hope Sony and Macrovision get it all worked out - but that is not certain.

rockin robin

03-25-09, 03:25 PM

Hi all!!

Yesterday, under the PROMOTIONS tab on the TVGOS menu I saw an entry for "Guide system re-initialization." When I scroll down to this item, on the bottom left it reads (in the place where the ads would normally be) "Are you having trouble getting a lineup or listings?" When I pressed the INFO button (or left arrow) the screen instructs you to go to the SETUP menu and use the Zip 00000. Then turn unit off for 5 minutes and when you turn it back on again use your correct zip. It claims that listings should return within 24 hours.
I am pretty sure I have seen this reset method posted on other threads in this forum but this is the first time I had heard of it appearing on the PROMOTIONS menu within the TVGOS menus.

Worth a try!

Robin

HoustonUserSue

04-02-09, 07:02 PM

I also lost the analog tv guide in Houston - using panasonic dvr eh75

hotrod-houlihan

04-19-09, 03:49 PM

The DTVPal Plus placed in the TV Guide/Guide+ mode of operation does indeed work. It took me several months to get to this point, but I can confirm it now working in the Huntsville, Alabama market for the past 2 weeks.

Initially, I reported the loss of Guide+ data to Macrovision and they open a case with Charter Communications switching from the analog feed to the digital feed for their local cable signal. This took place around 15-OCT-08 when they switched their cable channel lineup. Within a week of this event all my Guide+ devices (RCA TV and Philips DVR) stopped receiving the Guide+ data. Macrovsion asked me to contact Charter and give them the case number along with their telephone number. Macrovision has always been very helpful when I have been able to speak to somebody via phone or email as they can explain the issues and what it takes to fix them. The Charter support people are in the same boat as the Dish and EchoStar help staff on this topic. Useless is the word.

So, I purchase a DTVPal Plus at the end of December 2008 to see if I could get the Guide+ data through the DTVPal Plus as advertised. My TV and DVR would send channel commands via the G-Link cable to scan channels 2 through 99 looking for a host channel, but they both failed and searched continuously because no stations were sending the data from a digital feed. My local CBS station confirmed they carry the Macrovision feed.

About 2 weeks ago my RCA TV connected to Charter Cable started to receive the Guide+ data and my TV Guide screen was populated with channel listings. So, I quickly hooked up my DTVPal Plus and my TV and DVR found a host channel. I was expecting the CBS channel to be shown as the host channel, but when I entered the diagnostic menu for my RCA TV it showed the local PBS digital feed as the host channel. Whether I use rabbit ears on the DTVPal Plus or I use the cable feed directly to my TV or DVR, the host channel is always the local PBS digital channel. My DVR is a Philips HDRW720.

Actually, I do not care where the Guide+ data comes from. I am just happy it is now working. The whole issue was the data was not available in my area from a digital TV broadcast station. It is now clear that my local PBS station has been updated to provide the Guide+ data via their digital broadcast signal and my TV and DVR are decoding the data through the DTVPal Plus on the Vertical Blanking Interval of the NTSC signal where it is expected.

I can happily confirm the DTVPal Plus will work with Guide+ enabled devices as long as there is a digital TV broadcast station carrying the data. The digital signal is decoded by the DTVPal Plus and simply presents the NTSC signal for an analog TV with the Guide+ data on the VBI. It took a few months of whining, complaining, documenting, and finding the right source to get the problem resolved.

You can read more about my issue at satelliteguys dot US and search for the text "Does anybody receive Guide Plus updates through their DTVPal Plus". If you search for the text on Google you will also find it.

avnstf

04-22-09, 04:36 PM

The DTVPal Plus placed in the TV Guide/Guide+ mode of operation does indeed work. It took me several months to get to this point, but I can confirm it now working in the Huntsville, Alabama market for the past 2 weeks.

To be clear...you are operating the Pal in TVGOS mode with the appropriate substitute zip code, and it's getting the special set of TVGOS data via CABLE that it can convert to analog for your Guide+ unit???

Oh, wait...is your Pal getting the data OTA? that makes more sense...

Thanks - Tony

DidHeFocus

04-22-09, 11:55 PM

avnstf

04-23-09, 12:06 AM

I haven't been able to get my DTVPal converter to work in TVGOS mode with my Toshiba plasma. But when I disconnected the Pal and started over I started getting OTA TVGOS again. I haven't had any listings at all since daylight savings. Is analog TVGOS working again or am I getting it digitally somehow?
In most cases, they reverted to analog about a month ago, but different areas are out of phase in terms of the screwups and backtracking, so it's hard to say anything in particular about specific areas...also, in most cases the special data stream required by the DTVPal is still unavailable, as far as I can tell...

DidHeFocus

04-23-09, 01:29 AM

Thanks avnstf,
Is PBS still supplying the analog TVGOS or did CBS take over?
Is there a way to tell what channel is providing it?

avnstf

04-23-09, 02:29 AM

Thanks avnstf,
Is PBS still supplying the analog TVGOS or did CBS take over?
Is there a way to tell what channel is providing it?
if you look at my signature, you'll see the answer, such as it is...

oops...on both my units, there is a way to get into a diagnostic menu; in either case, you go into the TV Guide, then push the up button to listings. For version 8 you then push the right button twice, then push down once, then enter the code 753159852. This puts you in one of the diagnostic screen, and if you now push the right button again, you will see the host channel given in about the middle of a list. For version 7, it is different in that, when you are at listings, you then push the LEFT button twice, then down once, then enter the same code and you will be at a screen that gives you the host channel, more toward the top of the list...

(doing this from memory, so hope it's right)

jafi1

04-23-09, 12:36 PM

In most cases, they reverted to analog about a month ago, but different areas are out of phase in terms of the screwups and backtracking, so it's hard to say anything in particular about specific areas...also, in most cases the special data stream required by the DTVPal is still unavailable, as far as I can tell...

I'm running my monthly DTVPal-TVGOS test to see if the SCTE-127 data is present yet in Denver.
After 24 hours - no host lock on KCNC (CBS) and no new guide info. I didn't bother to force the host this time. I'll let it run another 24 hours before I put my DMR-EH50 back to the analog PBS signal.

DidHeFocus

04-23-09, 10:08 PM

if you look at my signature, you'll see the answer, such as it is...

oops...on both my units, there is a way to get into a diagnostic menu; in either case, you go into the TV Guide, then push the up button to listings. For version 8 you then push the right button twice, then push down once, then enter the code 753159852. This puts you in one of the diagnostic screen, and if you now push the right button again, you will see the host channel given in about the middle of a list. For version 7, it is different in that, when you are at listings, you then push the LEFT button twice, then down once, then enter the same code and you will be at a screen that gives you the host channel, more toward the top of the list...

(doing this from memory, so hope it's right)
I already checked the TVGOS diagnostic but didn't notice the host channel in in any of the screens. I'll try again later.
Thanks

DidHeFocus

04-23-09, 10:21 PM

I went in to the diagnostic screen and noticed this:
Host channel 1:0-6
VBI Channel 1:0-6
Is this their way of indicating analog channel 6?
6 is the Sacramento PBS channel KVIE.

avnstf

04-23-09, 11:25 PM

I went in to the diagnostic screen and noticed this:
Host channel 1:0-6
VBI Channel 1:0-6
Is this their way of indicating analog channel 6?
6 is the Sacramento PBS channel KVIE.
I think the answer is yes...are you on cable? Because I get a 0 at the beginning instead of a 1...

(By the way, the vbi channel doesn't mean much...it's simply the last channel the unit tuned to...)

DidHeFocus

04-24-09, 10:30 PM

I think the answer is yes...are you on cable? Because I get a 0 at the beginning instead of a 1...

(By the way, the vbi channel doesn't mean much...it's simply the last channel the unit tuned to...)
I'm on OTA, no cable.
I was wondering how the DTVPal will actually work. The way the instructions indicate, the Pal will be working as a cable box and will be the main tuner. This will not be acceptable since the Pal isn't HD. My tv has 2 antenna inputs and the Pal will be occupying ant 1. Unfortunately antenna 2 cannot be controllled by the guide on antenna 1.

Ken H

08-05-09, 05:17 PM

Latest TVGOS Update:

The TV Guide data signal includes two streams; (1) the HD DTV format TVGOS and (2) recently added the backwards compatible format for analog devices. Some set top boxes use the backwards compatible data when they down convert the signal to SD NTSC, so that older analog sets continue to receive the Guide data.

The cable headends should also extract the backwards compatible data when they down convert the signal to SD NTSC.

New HD DTV sets will use the DTV formatted data.

That is how the system is designed to operate, however, the Cable MSO’s and individual set top boxes may not have fully implemented the necessary protocols and hardware.

tk54911

08-05-09, 05:52 PM

jafi1

08-05-09, 07:52 PM

I'm OTA, no cable.

Channel Master 7000 and Zenith DTT901 CECBs connected to Panasonic DMR-EH75V DVR (which used to get TVGOS, but hasn't in some time). The Panny has an IR blaster controlling the CM7000, so it would be nice if TVGOS worked again. I'm in the Appleton, Wisconsin area.

Any thoughts about this ever working again or is it a lost cause?

Thanks!
Can you pick up the Green Bay station WFRV? According to http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos
WFRV is broadcasting the digital TVGOS feed.

Here's a whole thread on adventures with an EH75 with a Zenith 901 and a DTVPal
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1103408

The artec T3APR T also passes legacy TVGOS data.
http://www.artectv.com/ehtm/products/t3aprt.htm

Rammitinski

08-05-09, 08:06 PM

I'll be danged if I can get my EH75V's IR blaster to control my DTV Pal reliably, though.

tk54911

08-05-09, 11:13 PM

Can you pick up the Green Bay station WFRV? According to http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos
WFRV is broadcasting the digital TVGOS feed.

Here's a whole thread on adventures with an EH75 with a Zenith 901 and a DTVPal
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1103408

The artec T3APR T also passes legacy TVGOS data.
http://www.artectv.com/ehtm/products/t3aprt.htm

Thanks jafi, looks like I have some reading to do. :) And yes, I do get WFRV, so apparently there's hope, although I don't understand why it hasn't "loaded" itself yet. DUH! Guess my brain's already in bed. Most of my recordings are not on WFRV, and it's never left on that channel over night, so of course TVGOS isn't going to load! It's on WFRV now though, so we'll see tomorrow. Again, thanks.

tk54911

08-05-09, 11:14 PM

I'll be danged if I can get my EH75V's IR blaster to control my DTV Pal reliably, though.

Just to confirm, you're on input 3? Mine works perfectly, 100% of the time (oops, just remembered, EXCEPT back to back recordings on different channels; I'm so used to avoiding that, it slipped my mind).

Rammitinski

08-06-09, 01:43 AM

Just to confirm, you're on input 3? Mine works perfectly, 100% of the time (oops, just remembered, EXCEPT back to back recordings on different channels; I'm so used to avoiding that, it slipped my mind).Yes, I use input 3. How did you set it up for the amount of numbers blasted (on each of the three setup pages)?

Ans exactly which blaster code brand and number did you use?

tk54911

08-06-09, 02:15 AM

Yes, I use input 3. How did you set it up for the amount of numbers blasted (on each of the three setup pages)?

Ans exactly which blaster code brand and number did you use?

I'm hoping it's currently downloading TVGOS info, so going to wait until at least this evening to turn it on (and may be gone this evening). But I will certainly get that for you.

tk54911

08-06-09, 02:51 PM

Yes, I use input 3. How did you set it up for the amount of numbers blasted (on each of the three setup pages)?

Ans exactly which blaster code brand and number did you use?

I know you won't need some of this info, but here it is:

Zip 54915
Antenna On RF
Cable Box on IN3
Cable Box - Code 145 (Pioneer)

Somewhere in Setup, need to select both Antenna and Cable with a cable box.

For digits, first time it asked, I set it to "28"
Second time "I can't enter a number that high."

I know it also worked in the past with different digit settings, but I was experimenting trying to get back to back recordings on different channels to work, which I don't believe is possible. Thus, for whatever reason (I don't remember), I ended up with these settings and all I know is they work for all my manually set recordings, turning the channel on the CM7000 at the proper time.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

tk54911

09-26-09, 10:39 PM

Any news on TVGOS with Zenith 901 or CM7000 and Panny DMREH75V?

I had hoped using WFRV ch5 would do the trick, but no luck.

jjeff

09-27-09, 11:07 AM

I'm not sure what you're asking, but only the DTVPal CECB or a particular Artec is advertised as being able to convert digital OTA TVGOS to analog for legacy devices like your EH-75v.
While the 901 and CM7000 are great boxes they won't do the conversion.
You might want to check out this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122914) TVGOS master thread, or this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1181246) thread in the DVD recorders forum which is about your EH-75v in particular.
TVGOS isn't looking too good right now, especially for us OTA people. Seems some stations are finding out the TVGOS signal is interfering with some cheaper CECBs, not the Zenith or CM though.

tk54911

09-27-09, 01:49 PM

only the DTVPal CECB or a particular Artec is advertised as being able to convert digital OTA TVGOS to analog for legacy devices like your EH-75v.
While the 901 and CM7000 are great boxes they won't do the conversion.

Thanks Jeff, that's what I was asking. Doubt I'll be buying any more converter boxes. Pretty satisfied with the Z and CM. Always used to do manual recordings on my DVRs, then had TVGOS on my Panny75 for a year or so, which was convenient, but now I'm back to manual. Oh well. Guess I can stop checking on this in hopes it would become workable. Thanks again.

Fresnel22

10-12-09, 01:31 PM

I need some help with my Sony RDR-HX715, I looked around and seen a few threads that point to a solution to my issues but none are detailed enough.

My RDR has been giving me issues for a few months now.

When recording from TVGOS prime time/major Network shows seem to record Ok. but day time shows are hit and miss. One 11 am show never records. It doesn't matter if I use TVGOS or try to manually enter the time and channel. All I get is what I call the "death Pause". The unit enters the pre-record mode Red dot with Red Pause and just stays there for the hour it is scheduled to record. If you attempt to stop it from recording it indicates that it has stoped, but remains locked until the hour is over, or you power the RDR off and then back on.

another issue is that sometime it will start recording on time but does not stop. It will record for 3 hours and 5 Minutes.

I've called Sony and they told me to reboot the RDR by unplugging it for 5 minutes and then using easy setup. This has not helped.

I've tried using Match (my local Cable company) and no-Match, with generally the same results.

It seems that once it performs incorrectly it can not be cleared. It does the same ting over and over. This makes me think the Non-volital Memory is corrupted.

I've seen threads about new firmware updates and clearing the non-volital memory, both options seem logical as fixes for these issues but I can't find anything specific on how to do these.

Any other advise short of throwing this RDR out the window would be apreciated.