well, i have narrowed it down... "i guess"

i have a budget of 1600.00 and a room size of 5000^ft to fill...

which of these two to choose from. i love the looks of the SVS. but the eD looks like it could cause a tornado in my LR... :eek:

i will be placing my order next week. so i have the weekend still to ponder over this.

thanks.

Don't know about the eD but I have a PB13 with similiar cf size room and am wanting for nothing. I would look at their B stock personally

If I had the money, I would certainly go the PB13-Ultra route. They look so sleek compared to the eD. (I have an eD A2-300 btw :p)

Plus... I've never read about a single complaint on the PB13-Ultra.

well, i have narrowed it down... "i guess"

i have a budget of 1600.00 and a room size of 5000^ft to fill...

which of these two to choose from. i love the looks of the SVS. but the eD looks like it could cause a tornado in my LR... :eek:

i will be placing my order next week. so i have the weekend still to ponder over this.

thanks.


For some reason there has been very little discussion of the ED A7-450, (with the exception of the manufacturer).

I know of one person who has both the A7-450 and the SVS PB-13 Ultra. He goes by the name "ribbit".

I can tell you this much for sure. After receiving a pair of A7-450's and a pair of PB-13 Ultras, he ended up ordering 4 more PB-13 Ultras and being disappointed with his experience with Ed.

There are lots of happy Ed customers. But, at least on this Forum, the A7-450 hasn't fared well.

PS The A7S-450 is another story. Good feedback on the sealed model.

Go for the PB-13 Ultra. Like someone else mentioned, B-Stock is a good way to go, (as long as there is no damage). They tell you if there is any damage on the web site.

For some reason there has been very little discussion of the ED A7-450, (with the exception of the manufacturer).

I know of one person who has both the A7-450 and the SVS PB-13 Ultra. He goes by the name "ribbit".

I can tell you this much for sure. After receiving a pair of A7-450's and a pair of PB-13 Ultras, he ended up ordering 4 more PB-13 Ultras and being disappointed with his experience with Ed.

There are lots of happy Ed customers. But, at least on this Forum, the A7-450 hasn't fared well.

PS The A7S-450 is another story. Good feedback on the sealed model.

Go for the PB-13 Ultra. Like someone else mentioned, B-Stock is a good way to go, (as long as there is no damage). They tell you if there is any damage on the web site.

thanks, i looked at the SVS b-stock, and found one with no damage, but i want the sub with the metal grill and at the -100.00 they had on the sub i would rather buy a new one anyway and get the color and grill i want.

For some reason there has been very little discussion of the ED A7-450, (with the exception of the manufacturer).

I know of one person who has both the A7-450 and the SVS PB-13 Ultra. He goes by the name "ribbit".

I can tell you this much for sure. After receiving a pair of A7-450's and a pair of PB-13 Ultras, he ended up ordering 4 more PB-13 Ultras and being disappointed with his experience with Ed.

There are lots of happy Ed customers. But, at least on this Forum, the A7-450 hasn't fared well.

PS The A7S-450 is another story. Good feedback on the sealed model.

Go for the PB-13 Ultra. Like someone else mentioned, B-Stock is a good way to go, (as long as there is no damage). They tell you if there is any damage on the web site.

It looks as though the A7-450 is undergoing a complete revision with a totally different, very beefy looking driver going into it. It will also be going from three 4" ports to two 6" ports for more breathing. The price and weight will also be going up by approximately $200. It seems as though it is getting much more like an Epik Conquest. It will essentially be different sub than the old one and it should be very improved. To my knowledge, none of these new versions have yet to be built, so it is as of now an unproven design.

WudChuk, a couple of things to keep in mind. The A7-450 is significantly larger and heavier than the PB13-Ultra and will be likely to have a good deal more output. However, the Ultra is certainly no slouch in the output territory and is also very well respected for it's sound and build quality.

just to give you guys some idea of the Living Room to conquer...

http://miagrill.no-ip.com/Mani-aX/AVS/IMG_2838.JPG

http://miagrill.no-ip.com/Mani-aX/AVS/IMG_2839.JPG

http://miagrill.no-ip.com/Mani-aX/AVS/IMG_2835.JPG

http://miagrill.no-ip.com/Mani-aX/AVS/IMG_2840.JPG

like the home made sub...? it replaced the klipsch rw-12d for a while.

PS The A7S-450 is another story. Good feedback on the sealed model.

1300 watt option?
I wonder how it compares with the HSU ULS-15 and the Ascend F15?

It looks as though the A7-450 is undergoing a complete revision with a totally different, very beefy looking driver going into it.

a driver with more xmax! i wonder why? i thought i was at fault with the previous ones bottoming and not the drivers.

btw, i just discovered my two amps input gains are different ...

one needs to be set to max + subwoofer channel level +3 to +5 just to match the other one at half gain on the knob and 0db at the receiver (12 o clock). subs are colocated

PS The A7S-450 is another story. Good feedback on the sealed model.

1300 watt option?
I wonder how it compares with the HSU ULS-15 and the Ascend F15?

ps - nice set of outlaws ya got there.... ;)

a driver with more xmax! i wonder why? i thought i was at fault with the previous ones bottoming and not the drivers.

btw, i just discovered my two amps input gains are different ...

one needs to be set to max + subwoofer channel level +3 to +5 just to match the other one at half gain on the knob and 0db at the receiver (12 o clock). subs are colocated


with that much bass, bet the vibration moved the gain down for you.... hehe :D

with that much bass, bet the vibration moved the gain down for you.... hehe :D

i wish :)

Yes very happy with my monoblocks and m80s, I push them fairly hard at least I think so. Was jamming out to Paul Van Dyk The Politics of Dancing 2 yesterday before I went to the gym. I am paying off a couple credit cards then I can get my dual subs -- maybe by then I will decide which ones :eek:

PS The A7S-450 is another story. Good feedback on the sealed model.

1300 watt option?
I wonder how it compares with the HSU ULS-15 and the Ascend F15?

Well I have both the ULS and the A7s-450...

What can I say....
The ED needs a better 18" definately.It sounds good and powerful, but as long the driver does not require much excursion....Which is bad for a sealed design...it is excellent for mid bass duties...
The HSU needs a bigger box, or a ported design, to have more output,... but the driver is amazing!It just have lots of excursion, very clean output, and you cannot hear any strange noises coming from it...Excellent for low bass passages and has good mid bass too.A much more balanced sub.

The combination of the two just have the best of both worlds.So together they sound amazing. I went to a local hi fi shop yesterday in PR and they had playing two Fathoms F112 at the same time...HAHHA They were as clean and a little tighter, but not as visceral as my setup....

The new 18" subwoofer will be an upgrade from the A7-450. With more power and higher excursion.

The new 18" subwoofer really is a bottom feeder. Tons of output down low. For music only applications, the A7-450 would be a better choice, depending on the main speakers you are running.

For movies, the new 18" is without a doubt the winner.

Out of all the A7-450's we have sold. Only one customer has had issues/complaints. Unfortunately not all of our customers post on message boards with reviews.

With either choice, I think you will be more than happy.

Good luck with your decision.

I am using 8 of the eD 18 inch driver in sealed sono's and they are fantastic. No funny noises, no bottoming. Just great, low, clean, and loud bass. I am using different amps, but I don't know what else to say. Doesn't the uls-15 have built in EQ for the bottom end? The eD's do not so the low end would go to the HSU for sure. I will run WOTW tonight to see how these handle 5 hz. I don't have any EQ right now.

The new 18" subwoofer will be an upgrade from the A7-450. With more power and higher excursion.

The new 18" subwoofer really is a bottom feeder. Tons of output down low. For music only applications, the A7-450 would be a better choice, depending on the main speakers you are running.

For movies, the new 18" is without a doubt the winner.

Out of all the A7-450's we have sold. Only one customer has had issues/complaints. Unfortunately not all of our customers post on message boards with reviews.

With either choice, I think you will be more than happy.

Good luck with your decision.

And out of all the customers of the A7-450, how many also have SVS PB-13 Ultras to compare the A7-450 to? It is also unfortunate that ribbit has had both mechanical/electrical issues and customer service complaints. I realize that the fact that he is not in the CONUS doesn't help, but that doesn't change things as far as user reviews.

Its too bad these customers you keep referring to don't post, but if they don't post, there is a void that you simply can't fill. Unfortunately, you have an enormous conflict of interest in this issue.

I am using 8 of the eD 18 inch driver in sealed sono's and they are fantastic. No funny noises, no bottoming. Just great, low, clean, and loud bass. I am using different amps, but I don't know what else to say. Doesn't the uls-15 have built in EQ for the bottom end? The eD's do not so the low end would go to the HSU for sure. I will run WOTW tonight to see how these handle 5 hz. I don't have any EQ right now.

MK

Since you don't have the A7-450, your experience with raw Ed drivers says little about the A7-450, EQ or no EQ.

The best path to credibilty for the A7-450 would be to actually get one of the new ones built and then tested by a qualified tester/reviever.

The best path to credibilty for the A7-450 would be to actually get one of the new ones built and then tested by a qualified tester/reviever.

Yes, and since Tom Nousaine tested the Epik Conquest, he is the logical choice for Ed to submit the "new" A7-450 to for testing.

I strongly doubt that Ed is going to submit the A7-450, (old or new model), to ANY professional tester as this has been their stance since the beginning. Of course they don't come right out and say that. Instead, they talk in terms of too much customer demand to divert a sub to a professional tester. So, it seems that as long as Ed has even one sub on order, they will hide behind that to avoid professional testing.

Ed is not alone in refusing to submit its subs to professional sub testers. This is a business decision. It is much easier to mention anonymous happy owners than it is to have to deal with peak output testing, distortion measurements, bandwith linearity, and comparisons to known and tested products from other companies.

Nousaine would be the pefect person since he did the definitive test of the Epik Conquest.

MK

Since you don't have the A7-450, your experience with raw Ed drivers says little about the A7-450, EQ or no EQ.

I'm guessing he was commenting on the quality of the same 18" driver that eD uses, in response to another poster's impression of the eD18.

As an owner of a pair of A7s-450, i am more than happy in a basement that is 55 x 25 x 8. I could certainly use more output (isn't that always the case?), but my wife wouldn't like all the broken dishes in the kitchen above, as they already rattle and shake quite a bit.

As far as which is better, you would really need to buy both. Demo them in your room, and see which you like better. I am guessing that either sub will be more than a significant upgrade from what you have. Just remember, that during "normal" listening levels, there is likely not to be a HUGE difference between the two.

all the subs that are discussed here on these boards (hsu, eD, SVS, epik, axiom, danley, AV123,... ) are SO far superior to a plastic B-se box that it is hard to make a BAD decision. Hence the constant bickering and flame wars as to which is the BEST sub.

Have fun with your decision and let us know what you decide.

ED VS SVS...

Haven't we been here before??

Anyway, you asked and I will reply with my opinion.

Looks like you have a nice home. Might clean up your
living room alittle :) .

From what I have read, both damn good performers. Both good companies.

Buy the SVS. It just looks nicer.

I'm guessing he was commenting on the quality of the same 18" driver that eD uses, in response to another poster's impression of the eD18.

As an owner of a pair of A7s-450, i am more than happy in a basement that is 55 x 25 x 8. I could certainly use more output (isn't that always the case?), but my wife wouldn't like all the broken dishes in the kitchen above, as they already rattle and shake quite a bit.

As far as which is better, you would really need to buy both. Demo them in your room, and see which you like better. I am guessing that either sub will be more than a significant upgrade from what you have. Just remember, that during "normal" listening levels, there is likely not to be a HUGE difference between the two.

all the subs that are discussed here on these boards (hsu, eD, SVS, epik, axiom, danley, AV123,... ) are SO far superior to a plastic B-se box that it is hard to make a BAD decision. Hence the constant bickering and flame wars as to which is the BEST sub.

Have fun with your decision and let us know what you decide.

It has already been established that the A7S-450 has a good number of satisfied customers. Unfortunately, that doesn't say much, if anything about the A7-450.

Ribbit has already bought both the A7-450 and the PB-13 Ultra and his experience remains unsatisfactory with the A7-450. What comparing the A7-450 to the PB-13 Ultra led to, in his case, was him ordering 4 more PB-13 Ultras.

Suggesting that the OP buy both of these very heavy, large and expensive subs and comparing them is impractical for most. The PB-13 Ultra is proven, tested, and an outright winner.

It would be foolish for the OP to buy both when the PB-13 Ultra has hundreds, if not thousands of happy owners.

Yes, I was referring to the driver. I know of others who have owned other eD subs as well as some of the best mentioned here. He likes the eD and places it near the top. Some of the subs include: Conquest, Danley DTS-20, SVS PB-13, Klipsch Ultra 2's,
eD A7-900, eD P7-650's, and DIY subs with eD drivers. Now this is someone who I consider with experience. We are talking great subs no matter which way you go. He liked the Danley better in sound quality than the Conquest and A7-900. The SVS was also excellent in sound quality(on par with eD and Epik). The eD had the most output out of all of them with excellent sound quailty. He considers his DIY setup the best, so far. So the eD drivers are very good. I also love SVS products. You can't lose. Less wait on the SVS(I think). Svs started it all for me.

Yes, I was referring to the driver. I know of others who have owned other eD subs as well as some of the best mentioned here. He likes the eD and places it near the top. Some of the subs include: Conquest, Danley DTS-20, SVS PB-13, Klipsch Ultra 2's,
eD A7-900, eD P7-650's, and DIY subs with eD drivers. Now this is someone who I consider with experience. We are talking great subs no matter which way you go. He liked the Danley better in sound quality than the Conquest and A7-900. The SVS was also excellent in sound quality(on par with eD and Epik). The eD had the most output out of all of them with excellent sound quailty. He considers his DIY setup the best, so far. So the eD drivers are very good. I also love SVS products. You can't lose. Less wait on the SVS(I think). Svs started it all for me.I know that guy too. He's not going to pick favorites. He likes them all ;).

And out of all the customers of the A7-450, how many also have SVS PB-13 Ultras to compare the A7-450 to? It is also unfortunate that ribbit has had both mechanical/electrical issues and customer service complaints. I realize that the fact that he is not in the CONUS doesn't help, but that doesn't change things as far as user reviews.

Its too bad these customers you keep referring to don't post, but if they don't post, there is a void that you simply can't fill. Unfortunately, you have an enormous conflict of interest in this issue.


and you have an enormous hate towards eD
GET OVER IT

Yes, and by one's actions you can tell what people like. Ribbit prefers his ultra's to the eD's, and the guy I mentioned sold his SVS for the P7-650's. It is all subjective. They are great subs. Svs probably has the best customer service I have dealt with. For $1600 you could build 4 of the subs I have with great amplification, which by my actions, I like. I am still testing though.

and you have an enormous hate towards eD
GET OVER IT

Please go back to recommending the A5-350 to everyone. That's what you do best. If it doesn't have to do with Ed you have nothing to contribute.

I don't want to embarass you further, you were doing well by not posting about Ed. You don't have the slightest idea that a company can make a great product like the A7-900 and have a problem with another design.

If Alex has a problem with anything I post, he can speak for himself.

By posting you simply remind everyone that you are a joke who does nothing but reccomend the Ed A5-350 no matter what the OP says.

I feel sorry for you, you wouldn't know that trying to steer someone towards a much proven product has nothing to do with "feelings of hatred".

Get over yourself.

Yes, and by one's actions you can tell what people like. Ribbit prefers his ultra's to the eD's, and the guy I mentioned sold his SVS for the P7-650's. It is all subjective. They are great subs. Svs probably has the best customer service I have dealt with. For $1600 you could build 4 of the subs I have with great amplification, which by my actions, I like. I am still testing though.

What does the P7-650 have to do with the A7-450? So you know someone who likes an Ed built sub but its not an A7-450 which is the subject of this thread. It is not all subjective when your subs are bottoming out and you can't get satisfaction from customer service.

Ribbits experience speaks to a lot of people.

Maybe you can answer this: Why is Ed making drastic changes to the A7-450 (as described by another poster as taking it in the direction of the Epik Conquest)? Not because it was such a great performer and selling really well.

Good luck with your "testing", that will keep you on the treadmill even longer.

Spyboy. I feel like you have a vendetta against us. ;)

I am in no way trying to convince a person to purchase our product over another company. I was simply informing people that the new 18" speaker that we will offer will be completely different than the A7-450. We will be keeping the A7-450 as an item in our inventory.


Ed is not alone in refusing to submit its subs to professional sub testers. This is a business decision.

As for the reviews. We actually sent out some full range speakers for review a few months ago, as we have them in stock. The reviews went well. We also had an A2-300 reviewed. There is currently an A7S-450 out too. We sent these items out when our lead time was less than two weeks. The reviewer also got to choose the product they wanted to test.

You make it sound like we have something to hide. We want to cut our lead times down before we rally for more orders with a review. Paying customers who are waiting for 3-4 weeks can understand this, and im sure they actually respect our decision.

I was also only stating that we have sold more than two A7-450 subwoofers. Our customer base is larger than AVSforum.

I wished the customer luck with his purchase, no matter what he chooses. I would consider the A7-450 to fall in a different market than the PB13 ultra to be honest with you. One is fairly large and has an 18" subwoofer with a black textured finish. The other is a smaller driver, with smaller cabinet, and offers real wood finishes for a higher price point.

MKTheater posting about the 19Ov.2 speakers, does have some relevance to this thread as well, as he has used his in a cabinet almost twice as large as the A7-450 with a considerable amount of power with no issues. He is simply stating his luck with the subwoofer has been great. While other are stating the subwoofer itself is the issue with the A7-450.

Im sorry if I offended anyone in this thread. As I mentioned, I was not trying to sell anything, just stating, the new 18" speaker will not likely be called an A7-450.

My take is that both subwoofers are great. Here are the reasons I see for someone to choose to purchase one or the other:

PB13-Ultra:
- Customer wants the subwoofer delivered soon
- Best-in-class customer service
- Subwoofer is well-known for having excellent sound quality
- Great output and extension
- Multiple tuning options
- Smaller size
- Nicer finish

A7-450
- Customer doesn't mind waiting a while before getting the sub
- eD still has very good customer service (according to most customers)
- Massive output
- Doesn't mind a very large enclosure
- Doesn't mind limited finish options
- Wants biggest bang for the buck


IMO it all boils down to whether the customer wants the absolute most output possible (a valid concern due to the size of the room the sub will be in) and will be willing to step out on a limb and purchase a product that has seen very little exposure here on AVS and no formal reviews. If so, I think the eD will offer the best performance for the money. As Alex stated, eD has sold quite a few A7-450's and most customers have been very satisfied. I see no reason for Alex to make this up. I've personally spoken with some of the guys at eD and they were very honest and up front. In fact, eD actually lost a sale from me personally due to Chris's honesty (not a problem with a sub, but an odd issue with room placement and my setup at that time). So I certainly don't doubt Alex's integrity. If the OP doesn't want to go the eD route, SVS offers tried and true performance and exceptional customer service. Having been a SVS customer, I can vouch for them 100% in that regard. Really, the OP will get a great sub either way. It's all about personal preference.

well, if eD straight out told me that i needed to buy more subs for my room and offered to replace the drivers at their dime (without shipping of course) i would have purchased more A7-450's. so aside from my driver AND amp problems, there's also the customer service.

i really felt i was left hanging when i started to have problems (eD would say otherwise, but i do have a crapload of emails and logs with timestamps) ... had i been given good service ... i might actually have several more A7-450's instead of Ultras because i really had the A7-450's designed to kill the Ultra. perhaps they thought having TWO A7-450's (and a 13av.2) and living this far away meant i was no longer a potential customer.

sure. i'm only one guy who complains. i'm also one guy with TWO A7-450's which are BOTH problematic (coincidence? i don't think so) and a crapload of other subs to compare it to. i can see why other A7-450 customers do not complain, because nobody ever did an A/B switch with another sub.

What does the P7-650 have to do with the A7-450? So you know someone who likes an Ed built sub but its not an A7-450 which is the subject of this thread. It is not all subjective when your subs are bottoming out and you can't get satisfaction from customer service.

Ribbits experience speaks to a lot of people.

Maybe you can answer this: Why is Ed making drastic changes to the A7-450 (as described by another poster as taking it in the direction of the Epik Conquest)? Not because it was such a great performer and selling really well.

Good luck with your "testing", that will keep you on the treadmill even longer.

Wow Spyboy, I thought you have come a long way since you started posting and then you post something like this. What are your experiences with the svs and eD? Do you have any or are you just reading what others have said? My relevance is toward the eD 18 inch driver. Since I have experience with it I wanted to share, I don't push what I own on to people and don't argue with them If they disagree. So why attack me? I did not say the SVS was bad, I bet it kicks ass as all their subs have(it is their best too). I am not going to assume eD made a bad product because they are changing it. SVS changed their MTS speaker so does this mean their older design was bad? Of course not. The problem here is that you always use Ribbit's experience about the A7-450 and that is it. I remember when the first batch of SVS ultras came out many amps were bad too. Ribbit's experience is what it is, his experience and I believe him, but that does not tell me that all A7-450's would be like his, you are just assuming that. Basically you don't own either as I don't, so why attack others, there is no need. I have used eD drivers and just telling my experience with them that they are good. Just my experience, that is it.

Hello,

Quote:the new 18" speaker will not likely be called an A7-450.

Please let me know when it is available I would like one or two of the new subs

rmlowz

Wow Spyboy, I thought you have come a long way since you started posting and then you post something like this. What are your experiences with the svs and eD? Do you have any or are you just reading what others have said? My relevance is toward the eD 18 inch driver. Since I have experience with it I wanted to share, I don't push what I own on to people and don't argue with them If they disagree. So why attack me? I did not say the SVS was bad, I bet it kicks ass as all their subs have(it is their best too). I am not going to assume eD made a bad product because they are changing it. SVS changed their MTS speaker so does this mean their older design was bad? Of course not. The problem here is that you always use Ribbit's experience about the A7-450 and that is it. I remember when the first batch of SVS ultras came out many amps were bad too. Ribbit's experience is what it is, his experience and I believe him, but that does not tell me that all A7-450's would be like his, you are just assuming that. Basically you don't own either as I don't, so why attack others, there is no need. I have used eD drivers and just telling my experience with them that they are good. Just my experience, that is it.

well said.

spyboy seems to have a strong anti eD bias.

as far as customer service goes, i've had NOTHING but excellent CS from eD. Period. They called me the night the subs arrived to check if everything arrived ok. THEY CALLED ME. when's the last time you ordered something online have have the seller call you personally to see if everything was ok?

In fact, I had some shipping damage on one of my subs. I told them, and they shipped me a replacement sub before fedex came to claim the damaged one.

That is excellent CS.

whew, i feel like i have been slapped around in a huttle.

i am leaning towards the svs for the apprearance, but i would like to know if the eD would out perform the ultra? i have no experience with a "true" subwoofer IMO. i have had this DIY that i put together.... which i can't seem to tame it. and i have and still own the klipsch rw-12d, which i think is a good subwoofer. i have heard one poster say that the air from the ultra's port would blow it away... "haha" but, i'm not looking for exaggerations.. i like the facts and research. i mean when i hear you guys talking about a sub reaching 20hz or lower i really scratch my head and wonder have i ever heard anything i own go that low. which if i haven't it would be an experience for sure!! i am so confused in one way and thought i was sure in another.... "make sense" :confused:

whew, i feel like i have been slapped around in a huttle.

i am leaning towards the svs for the apprearance, but i would like to know if the eD would out perform the ultra? i have no experience with a "true" subwoofer IMO. i have had this DIY that i put together.... which i can't seem to tame it. and i have and still own the klipsch rw-12d, which i think is a good subwoofer. i have heard one poster say that the air from the ultra's port would blow it away... "haha" but, i'm not looking for exaggerations.. i like the facts and research. i mean when i hear you guys talking about a sub reaching 20hz or lower i really scratch my head and wonder have i ever heard anything i own go that low. which if i haven't it would be an experience for sure!! i am so confused in one way and thought i was sure in another.... "make sense" :confused:

Virtually all signs point to the fact that the eD should outperform the Ultra, at least in terms of output. It uses a much larger driver, has a much larger enclosure, and utilizes an amplifier of at least comparable power. It's also cheaper. Whether it actually does outperform the Ultra is another story, but I would venture to say yes. The advantages for the SVS are that we know it's a heck of a performer because of the extensive feedback of many PB13-Ultra owners here on AVS and that it is smaller and looks nicer.

As for the Ultra "blowing away" the Klipsch RW-12d you currently own, I'm not sure what to say. Yes, the Ultra should have significantly more output, deeper extension, and better sound quality, but people around here get a little crazy with the hyperbole. Let's just say the Ultra would be an absolutely noticeable, rather large upgrade. I wouldn't however go so far as to say it will "blow it away," if for no other reason than to prevent the possibility of disappointment if the disparity in performance is not as great as you had anticipated due to unrealistic expectations.

so to spec the rw-12d "frequency response 24-120Hz +/-3dB"
the ultra would really have an advantage in the higher spl, with a lower extension. ?

but i would like to know if the eD would out perform the ultra?

SPL wise in the upper frequencies ... most likely.

lower frequencies and overall performance. no it wouldn't. that's a fact.

SPL wise in the upper frequencies ... most likely.

lower frequencies and overall performance. no it wouldn't. that's a fact.
Mike, didn't you once post that other the SPL, you didn't hear differences in the subs you had/have?

If I remembered that correctly, other than SPL, what would "overall" performance entail for you?

Mike, didn't you once post that other the SPL, you didn't hear differences in the subs you had/have?

If I remembered that correctly, other than SPL, what would "overall" performance entail for you?

yes, above a certain point, it's just splitting hairs (for me) for example: for music, the DD18 and Ultra 13 sound the same to me - or at least i don't care to do a careful A/B of which sounds better in "SQ" - all my setups are set for HT usage and except my bedroom is 95% used for movies

overall performance would be: not worrying your sub would die after a movie :D

seriously though including the one above - it would be build quality, driver and amp quality, overall output, distortion whether audible or not ... now distortion i can hear - but i still don't mind.

yes, above a certain point, it's just splitting hairs (for me) for example: for music, the DD18 and Ultra 13 sound the same to me - or at least i don't care to do a careful A/B of which sounds better in "SQ" - all my setups are set for HT usage and except my bedroom is 95% used for movies

overall performance would be: not worrying your sub would die after a movie :D

seriously though including the one above - it would be build quality, driver and amp quality, overall output, distortion whether audible or not ... now distortion i can hear - but i still don't mind.

i could however make an effort to compare the ULS15 to the DD18 next year since i'm close to completing my HT setup :)

seriously though including the one above - it would be build quality, driver and amp quality, overall output, distortion whether audible or not ... now distortion i can hear - but i still don't mind.
So when you use "performance" you are not just including things that are audible or measureable, correct?

And you don't care to justify sound quality, or compare for it? Did I interpret that right? For you it is mainly about SPL capability?

i could however make an effort to compare the ULS15 to the DD18 next year since i'm close to completing my HT setup :)
I don't understand why you would if you don't put a premium on sound quality. Why wouldn't you get something that has the SPL you desire for HT? A known quantity to you with the Ultra.

I don't understand why you would if you don't put a premium on sound quality. Why wouldn't you get something that has the SPL you desire for HT? A known quantity to you with the Ultra.

oh it's not gonna be for HT. i have quite a few subs i bought just because i want to hear what they can do. :)

it's mainly because i want to play with subs, and i'm curious if the ULS-15 can match the SQ of the DD18 AND beat its output at the same time.

So when you use "performance" you are not just including things that are audible or measureable, correct?

And you don't care to justify sound quality, or compare for it? Did I interpret that right? For you it is mainly about SPL capability?

SPL capability above a certain SQ of course. if i wanted plain SPL, the lower models of SVS could have given me more SPL for less money.

"performance" - yes, it would include the physical - but only because a well designed amp would have the proper highpass for example in a sub. a well designed driver would for example have no audible mechanical sounds when you are nearfield. a properly designed enclosure would also have no resonance even when played as high as 100-120hz.

so yeah, while im talking about the physical parts, they all play a part in what's audible to me.

oh it's not gonna be for HT. i have quite a few subs i bought just because i want to hear what they can do. :)

it's mainly because i want to play with subs, and i'm curious if the ULS-15 can match the SQ of the DD18 AND beat its output at the same time.
Hear what they can do? You mean how loud they can get? I thought you said all your setups are for HT....and one is 95% HT.

I have not heard the DD18. Do you think it has better sound quality than the Ultra?

SPL capability above a certain SQ of course. if i wanted plain SPL, the lower models of SVS could have given me more SPL for less money.

"performance" - yes, it would include the physical - but only because a well designed amp would have the proper highpass for example in a sub. a well designed driver would for example have no audible mechanical sounds when you are nearfield. a properly designed enclosure would also have no resonance even when played as high as 100-120hz.

so yeah, while im talking about the physical parts, they all play a part in what's audible to me.
SPL above a certain SQ.....so you do judge SQ.

So don't the mechanical sounds and resonance play into sound quality?

Sorry...I just re-read your last few posts and mis-interpreted.

You don't hear a SQ difference in the DD18 and Ultra, and you buy subs just to play with, not necessarily use them.

I should go to sleep.

Hear what they can do? You mean how loud they can get?

I have not heard the DD18. Do you think it has better sound quality than the Ultra?

most of them yes.

i have never A/B'ed the Ultra and DD18 in terms of "SQ" ... only general enjoyability in HT.

basically i need to A/B switch between two speakers/subwoofers to find their differences. playing on their own, i'd be hardpressed to find differences.

even with A/B switching where i used a multichannel amp, i had a hard time differentiating between bookshelf speakers. so either im very bronze eared or my acoustic memory are in terms of milliseconds.

i have honestly never given time and effort in finding the differences between subwoofers in terms of "SQ"

SPL above a certain SQ.....so you do judge SQ.

So don't the mechanical sounds and resonance play into sound quality?

yes exactly. but not like other people are saying that this one is "tighter"; this one is "chocolatey" or whatever terms they use in describing the differences.
i just think that looking for these differences are not my priority right now :) unless i hear the difference from the get go - like an entry level sub vs. a flagship sub (DLS-R vs. DD, NSD vs. Ultra)

Sorry...I just re-read your last few posts and mis-interpreted.

You don't hear a SQ difference in the DD18 and Ultra, and you buy subs just to play with, not necessarily use them.

I should go to sleep.

i sure hope im misinterpreting your posts.

i've been quite civil with you, and unless im reading too much between the lines, i'd say you are being sarcastic and im getting the wrong vibe from you (kinda like when audiophiles think they are superior to ordinary people)

You are being very civil....I mean no offense at all.

I am just trying to understand how you judge subwoofers since you have opinions in your signature. It still isn't clear to me, it seems like SPL is the main criteria for you, but you are able to tell that the lower line SVS subs do have lesser sound quality.

You are being very civil....I mean no offense at all.

I am just trying to understand how you judge subwoofers since you have opinions in your signature. It still isn't clear to me.

thank you.

you can consider the subwoofer opinions to be based on HT use, and not on music use. and they're basically a collection of my complaints on a particular subwoofer and i have no skill, time or intention of actually ranking subs because i believe that what sounds good to me would be inapplicable to what sounds good to you. so i prefer to stick to what little i know which is SPL (above a certain SQ point - consider it a minimum point) and low frequency extension and just all around layman requirements for a sub.

basically, i'm learning how to interpret the graphs on ground plane tests like AVTALK and HTS by correlating what i hear with the graph results. it's been pretty accurate for me - unfortunately i never fully understand the graphs til i have the sub with me which makes it a very steep learning curve.

I think my difficulty comes when you say "certain SQ point". What is that point?

BTW....apologies if I don't seem civil....I am also just trying to understand.

I think my difficulty comes when you say "certain SQ point". What is that point?

BTW....apologies if I don't seem civil....I am also just trying to understand.

i can't quantify it, but there have been certain subwoofers that i can't stand because of the distortion i can hear (with certain music tracks) - for example, the Eagles Hotel California DTS DVD track ... some subs sound obnoxious to me on that track (though there's only been 3-4 which are)

it's also rare that i bring my "audio" listening to my HT where i do most of the subwoofer listening.

so the only subs i've listened to in my bedroom where i do my music listening (and where i did my A/B of bookshelf speakers) are the SB12, DD18, Axiom EP500, DLS-5000R, PB10 and PB12NSD (but on the other hand, all of them have been tested in my HT) and i can certainly hear the difference in SQ (music wise) from the DD18 and all the rest in that short list - save the PB12NSD.

ahhh...that is a great disc!

Thanks for the explanation....I appreciate it. I have more questions, but another place, another time.

ahhh...that is a great disc!

Thanks for the explanation....I appreciate it. I have more questions, but another place, another time.

you're welcome. next time then.

that was the most civil discussion i've seen here. seriously.
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i greatly appreciate ribbit's honesty about splitting hairs. it really is quite difficult to hear differences between two good subs. they are all more similar than we would like to believe. i think there are a couple points worth mentioning about this.

1. human hearing is not very sensitive in the very low or high frequency range. human hearing is most sensitive in the 200-2000 hz range. Remember that a concert piano goes from about 27.5 hz - 4186 hz. this is why we can very easily tolerate 100 db at 20 hz, but not 100 db at 200 hz.

2. since we can't hear well into that range, much of what is enjoyed from a good sub is tactile. you FEEL the bass. that is what we all want. to make the movie not just stimulate our eyes and ears, but also what we feel. that adds a HUGE dimension of realism to watching a movie. hence, it's hard to qualify what "feels" better sub #1 or sub #2. it will often come down to a simple which is louder contest.

3. movies vs music. When i bought my a7s-450's i had a ep500 and av123 10ufw to compare it with. I was surprised that for most movies / tv at NORMAL listening levels, there really wasn't much difference. i was actually disappointed that the difference wasn't more significant. i was certain that the eD would destroy the axiom. it was only when the volume was cranked to very high levels, did a tactile and audible difference occur. I was getting more output and more tactile feel from the ed than the axiom. sound quality wise, they were similar. however, when i started listening to music, the difference opened my eyes. on certain bass tracks (brian blomberg jaco ) the bass notes were completely different. i found the sealed eD to be far more musical and accurate compared to the ep500. I attribute that to the sealed vs. ported design (yes, this will likely start some flaming, but i am stating this as my opinion, not as fact) most movies have deep rumble and ultra low frequency content that is not very musical, hence the fact that, to my ears at least, they sound very similar. i would say that movies are NOT a great way to compare sound quality but rather some decent cd's and well picked music will be far more informative. Movies are good for how low / how deep / how loud discussions IMO.

Hello,

Quote:the new 18" speaker will not likely be called an A7-450.

Please let me know when it is available I would like one or two of the new subs

rmlowzI talked to Alex, Chris and Ben...you've been cutoff for your own good. :p:D