My dad and I have been building up our home theater for a while. A few years back we decided to do an entire upgrade to our system. Ended up with a 73 inch DLP, B&K receiver and Monitor Audio center, rear and tower speakers.

We didn't upgrade our sub at the time (an infinity BU-2) which was about 10 years old and dieing. We ended up giving in and trying to go all out and get the best sub we could afford. We ended up with a James Loudspeaker EMB 1500 which we were told would be insane overkill.

Problem is that since the second we got it, we feel it hasnt given us any kick. The crappy Infinity was giving us more of a kick (although the 1500 sounded really clear). We ended up turning it up it would start rattling and ended up blowing a ring in the front. It wasnt even at 25% volume when this happened. Called James LS and they knew about the problem and replaced it for us. Got it back and still it didnt sound right, ended up blowing the ring again and waiting for a box to ship it back again.

Now my question is that if we have the right sub. Talking to different audio shops and experts they tell us that we should be blown away; reading on the internet I've heard people getting 2 of these and saying they are only good for music. I'm wondering if we have been just getting back luck and receiving broken subs or if we should get our money back and upgrade to something else.

From reputation we are excited about this sub and want to keep it. But if it is the wrong sub for us (we want to be kicked but not hear distortion) what else can we get in the $2100-$2300 price range.

Edit- forgot to mention that this is pretty much 100% for movie watching; action, guns, and explosions - we want to feel it, but with quality.

Jatt, how big is the room? Is the room sealed or open? Do you prefer one sub or two? Does the size or finish of the sub matter?

man. for 2300.00 you can get a LOT of bass. how about 4 MFW-15's by ********** ???, 2 ULS15 from HSU, 2 PB12+ by SVS, etc etc and guaranteed they will ALL give you an absolute TON of bass.

I have has hsu, svs, paradigm, etc etc. i now have 3 MFW15's and let me tell you the whole house rattles and flexes from the air pressure and bass. spend wisely, and go with something proven.

Very possibly, one SVS PB-13 Ultra could do the job for you for hundreds less than $2,300.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm

If you prefer duals, I like the SVS PB-12 Plus.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-newpb12plus.cfm

This sub was just totally revised and two of them should give you lots of output, but might be a bit over your budget. You would get a 5% discount if you buy two at the same time, and they are offering free shipping right now.

There are other good choices. Two of the Ascend/Rythmik 15's:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/f15.html

The Ascend has particularly good sound quality, but still very good for HT.

Two HSU ULS-15 is another good choice at right around your upper limit.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls15dualdrive.html

While the room isnt too large, I'd say about 15-20ft wide, it is completely open in the back which leads into a wide open kitchen. It also has a vaulted ceiling.

Thanks for the other suggestions. We really want to go for a 1 sub setup (mostly because there isn't a whole lot of room to put a second one). That svs pb-13 ultra is one i've been looking at while browsing these forums.

The only thing is that we've been told that this James Loudspeaker is supposed to be one of the best. It retails closer to $3000+ when we bought it, we just had a friend hook us up. Any of you heard anything about this company? From calling and talking to professionals in person they tell us that no other sub should compare in the price range.

Should I wait on the James to be fixed again and give it another go or just return it? Hard to find anything too in depth about it on the internet, but talking to people on the phone or in person it has a huge high end reputation.


edit, heres a link to the sub: EMB-1500 (http://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/productdet.cfm?page=itemdetail&id=54). It really is a beast on paper too.

I would bet that at lower volume levels, the James sounded very clean. They only give FR specs on the web site, but that doesn't tell you the maximum output levels. Most sub manufacturers won't give this information. I am guessing that the ring you refer to is the foam surround. If you keep tearing them, then the surround isn't tall enough to handle the max excursion of the driver. This is not good if you want big LFE sound. It's possible the PR isn't working correctly and the active driver has to do more work than it is designed to do.

For your budget, there are many brands and models to choose from. It sounds like your biggest constraint is the footprint. Since you can purchase some of the biggest subs available, giving your size limits might help others steer you to an acceptable solution. Don't dismiss running dual subs to achieve the levels you want. They can be stacked if floorspace is too limited.

Yeah, actually when there was very little base in a scene the James would sound amazing. Probably the best I've ever heard. This, along with what all these high end stores telling me, is what is keeping me from getting refunded.

The problem that we've been getting is that when an explosion or high base event occurs the subwoofer rattles as if we are turning it to max volume and trying to blow the speaker out. However, we barely turn the volume on at all and the rattle still happens. After a few days of the rattle it turns into a completely broken rattle, thumping, crackle because the ring in the front of the sub gets sucked in and splits.

James apparently is aware that their 1500s were fitted with an 'O-ring' (i think he said o ring anyway) that was too small and was causing the blow out.

I don't mean to sound like I'm shrugging off other sub suggestions but I'm just, well, excited to hear what I've been told this emb-1500 is supposed to do. I was more wondering if anyone had heard anything about this company and speaker. But I did want to see what other subs are comparable to it.

Size limits of the sub, well something around the size of the Emb1500 is what I'm aiming for. This thing really is huge, weighs about 100lbs (which while doing positions was a real pain). For the size of the room, the Infinity is a 10inch 100watt 10 year old speaker and it still gives us that thump we are looking for. Although the infinity doesnt give much else and sounds like crap.

I'll try and see if I can upload a picture of my room and the sub right now.

Here are some pics if they help at all. I can get more if I need to be more specific.
I'm leaning on the kitchen counter in the first shot with the entire kitchen behind me, no back wall. Our side speakers are just out of the shot to my left and right.
The Room (http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1020/htea3.jpg)
Infinity 10inch sub (http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/1652/infinityaw8.jpg)
EMB-1500 (http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3528/emb1500sd7.jpg)
EMB-1500 Blown Ring (http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/1892/1500ringhi9.jpg)

...This thing really is huge, weighs about 100lbs (which while doing positions was a real pain). ...

With your budget, you should be looking at some current beasts (talk about huge):

eD A7-900
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=606

Epik Conquest
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/ConquestOverview.html

Epik Castle
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/CastleOverview.html

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

...in addition to the subs recommended earlier.

Here are some pics if they help at all. I can get more if I need to be more specific.
I'm leaning on the kitchen counter in the first shot with the entire kitchen behind me, no back wall. Our side speakers are just out of the shot to my left and right.
The Room (http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1020/htea3.jpg)
Infinity 10inch sub (http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/1652/infinityaw8.jpg)
EMB-1500 (http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3528/emb1500sd7.jpg)
EMB-1500 Blown Ring (http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/1892/1500ringhi9.jpg)That driver/surround tear looks nasty. Either it is hitting something in the basket or it is over excursion damage. Definitely something that shouldn't be happening. Especially on a $3k sub.

The design principle of the James is impressive but the execution sucks. What is being destroyed in front, what you call the ring, is the cone and surround of a passive radiator. If you have already "blown" two of the passive radiators and the dealer admits there's a problem . . . . then I DO TOO! Get rid of that unit. You've given it a fair trial and it's failed for what you're using it for.
If you're set on a high dollar compact sub for maximum slam and dvd performance get a JL Fathom f113. That is a tried and tested unit and is a stunner for performance.
But even with a JL Fathom f113 sub I think your listening room, as you've minimally described it, may need more than one sub. If one dimension is 15ft. and the other might be 12-15ft. and you have a vaulted ceiling and one end of the room opens into kitchen, then you've got yourself a (LARGE) room! Large rooms can suck up and awful lot of audio power making you think your sub is not playing loud. Obviously trying to pressurize that room with the James sub to the sound level you desired ended in failure . . . . twice. It's time to give some other sub or two a try.

What the manufacture told me was that there is an O-Ring inside there and it was fitted too small which causes rattling and eventually blows the cone. They said it was only a few of their subs had the issue so I'm thinking we got really unlucky twice.

Either way I think I'm going to allow them to fix it one more time, if it doesn't give me what I want from it I am really liking the look of that JL Fathom f113.

Also after we got the first replacement sub we ended up hooking the Infinity up with the EB1500, stuffed a towel in it and turned it as far down as it goes without going off. Filled out a bit of what we were missing but I feel the EB1500 should be doing more.

I should say though that when we were breaking in the EB1500 before the ring broke it really had an amazing sound but we never tested it with action movies or anything till after it broke it and the ring busted.

Dang, reading into all these subs you guys are suggesting. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to end up getting my money back for the EB1500. Now I'm torn between going with the PB13-Ultra or 2 PB12-Plus. But now I'm dreaming of that Fathom F113.

The guy who sold us the EB1500 came out to help set it up. He suggested that we may need 2 subs also. But when we hook up the infinity it really gives us a nice thump considering it is only a 100watt 10inch sub.

Dang, reading into all these subs you guys are suggesting. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to end up getting my money back for the EB1500. Now I'm torn between going with the PB13-Ultra or 2 PB12-Plus. But now I'm dreaming of that Fathom F113.

The guy who sold us the EB1500 came out to help set it up. He suggested that we may need 2 subs also. But when we hook up the infinity it really gives us a nice thump considering it is only a 100watt 10inch sub.

get rid of that sub for that money you could get something to level your house.
duel epik castles would be way out there even for the most jaded.

So, would you guys go dual epik castle, the pb13ultra, or the fathom f113 if you could pick between one of the 3 set ups.

Again this is for 100% movie watching, action sequences, explosions, we want to feel em.

For what you are looking for, the dual Castles will really rock your room. Of the three choices, the f113 would be the weakest for movies.

Hmm so I should go dual castles, since the svs is supposed to be comparable to the f113.

Also got off the phone with some more retailers. They are saying that 1 1/2 year ago that this James Loudspeaker was probably the best speaker they carried for a while when talking music.

They tell me that I want to go with the Sunfire Signature right now. I'm leaning towards dual castles but anyone hear about the Sunfire.

For movies the SVS will easily beat the f113 or the Sunfire. The dual Castles would have considerably more output then any of the choices you are talking about. If you want the deepest bass, go with the SVS.

Have you considerd a Conquest, or is it too large for you?

For movies the SVS will easily beat the f113 or the Sunfire. The dual Castles would have considerably more output then any of the choices you are talking about. If you want the deepest bass, go with the SVS.

Have you considered a Conquest, or is it too large for you?I'm going to have to disagree with you Mike on your Ultra easily beating the Fathom for movies. I attended the dual Ultra vs dual F113 challenge at RMK!s house last year using RMK!s F113s and kweezr's Ultras. they both punched it out almost to a draw. If you throw size out of the equation, it was a surprise the Ultra performed as well as the Fathom. On the other hand, it was a surprise how much output the Fathom puts out in such a relatively small enclosure. For the additional cost, the Fathom does include additional, useful features and the finish is extraordinary.

I haven't heard or seen the Epik's, and I'm sure they perform very well, they just look more industrial (pro gear) while the Ultra is more residential and the Fathom is high end decor.

If I was in the market now, I would not buy the Fathom, only due to price. I would have to audition some of the Epiks and Rythmiks, but I would add a good Eq to make the most of any of these. That would still keep me well under the F113 price.

Will the one conquest sound better than the 2 castles?

I'm going to have to disagree with you Mike on your Ultra easily beating the Fathom for movies. I attended the dual Ultra vs dual F113 challenge at RMK!s house last year using RMK!s F113s and kweezr's Ultras. they both punched it out almost to a draw. If you throw size out of the equation, it was a surprise the Ultra performed as well as the Fathom. On the other hand, it was a surprise how much output the Fathom puts out in such a relatively small enclosure. For the additional cost, the Fathom does include additional, useful features and the finish is extraordinary.

I haven't heard or seen the Epik's, and I'm sure they perform very well, they just look more industrial (pro gear) while the Ultra is more residential and the Fathom is high end decor.

If I was in the market now, I would not buy the Fathom, only due to price. I would have to audition some of the Epiks and Rythmiks, but I would add a good Eq to make the most of any of these. That would still keep me well under the F113 price.

Randy, I was basing some of my opinion on write-ups I read from folks that had attended those very GTG's. Here's a sample of those opinions:

From Jesse S: "One SVS by itself could put out some decent movie bass that actually flapped the clothes a bit and it did reasonably well with all of the music. The JL didn't have enough output by itself for movies."

From soundemon:"The SVS PB13 The SVS had great intensity and impact, and seemed to have a little more volume or output than the others."

Craigsubs tests also drew the conclusion that the PB13 was higher ranked for HT. Illka's ground-plane results show that a PB13 wll produce as much deep bass as about two f113's. Remember, this is exclusively for HT that we are talking about.

I'm torn between the SVS PB13 Ultra and the Epik Conquest now. I'm really hoping I can find a dealer in Southern CA that has one or both of these subs on demo.

Again, we want to feel the explosions and 100% movie watching, which would you guys prefer between these two.

For what you are looking for, the dual Castles will really rock your room.

+1

Assuming the eD A7-900 is too big for your environment, I would take 2 Castles over a single PB-13 for HT.

Did you read the craigsub link?
http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

I'm torn between the SVS PB13 Ultra and the Epik Conquest now. I'm really hoping I can find a dealer in Southern CA that has one or both of these subs on demo.

Again, we want to feel the explosions and 100% movie watching, which would you guys prefer between these two.You won't find a dealer as both companies are internet only. You may be able to find other members in your area that will let you come to their home for a demo.

I'm torn between the SVS PB13 Ultra and the Epik Conquest now. I'm really hoping I can find a dealer in Southern CA that has one or both of these subs on demo.

Again, we want to feel the explosions and 100% movie watching, which would you guys prefer between these two.

For strictly HT with the purpose of "feeling explosions" I'd expect the Conquest to be the more powerful of the two subs. Craigsub rated the Castle slightly higher than the PB13-Ultra for HT, and the Conquest is even a bit more powerful than the Castle. I just heard the PB13 Ultra today for the first time and it was a very impressive sub, but in terms of sheer output, the Conquest should have the edge with its much larger driver, enclosure, and amp.

Will the one conquest sound better than the 2 castles?

Not sure if it will sound better. The Castles will have more output, while the Conquest should likely dig a bit deeper.

Randy, I was basing some of my opinion on write-ups I read from folks that had attended those very GTG's. Here's a sample of those opinions:

From Jesse S: "One SVS by itself could put out some decent movie bass that actually flapped the clothes a bit and it did reasonably well with all of the music. The JL didn't have enough output by itself for movies."

From soundemon:"The SVS PB13 The SVS had great intensity and impact, and seemed to have a little more volume or output than the others."

Craigsubs tests also drew the conclusion that the PB13 was higher ranked for HT. Illka's ground-plane results show that a PB13 will produce as much deep bass as about two f113's. Remember, this is exclusively for HT that we are talking about.I understand, in another setup, one sub may perform better than another, but that wasn't my experience with these two. I find that many of the more competent subs are closer to each other in performance than many of us want to admit. This is where price, size, alignment, aesthetics, and features become the deciding qualities. I cringe when knowledgeable people, like yourself, use words like easily beat, beat hands down, blow away and other such terms to make a point about the subjective comparisons of two capable designs that are very close in overall performance levels.

sorry, and i know i'm biased a bit, but why isn't ANYONE suggesting a pair or quad MFW-15's??? certainly they hold their own in this category, and are much more attractively priced as i understand it...and yes i own 3. i have also owned in the past:

SVS
HSU
Paradigm x 3
Def Tech x 3
JBL etc.

currently running 3 MFW15's

+1

Assuming the eD A7-900 is too big for your environment, I would take 2 Castles over a single PB-13 for HT.

Did you read the craigsub link?
http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

I would take 1 castle over 1 pb13 for HT. It has 2 db extra average output over 20-63 hz, and costs less. Pb13 might be a bit more musical but since we're talking HT, output/impact/headroom is more important, right?

I would take 1 castle over 1 pb13 for HT. It has 2 db extra average output over 20-63 hz, and costs less. Pb13 might be a bit more musical but since we're talking HT, output/impact/headroom is more important, right?

while that might be true about the extra 2db, i would go with the PB13 for it's beautiful looks. the epik stuff is just FUGLY to say the least. sorry guys, but they really are some of the worst lookign subs around...along with the eD stuff. i know ti sounds great, but man, they look terrible.

I understand, in another setup, one sub may perform better than another, but that wasn't my experience with these two. I find that many of the more competent subs are closer to each other in performance than many of us want to admit. This is where price, size, alignment, aesthetics, and features become the deciding qualities. I cringe when knowledgeable people, like yourself, use words like easily beat, beat hands down, blow away and other such terms to make a point about the subjective comparisons of two capable designs that are very close in overall performance levels.

When two very good subs are calibrated properly and are operating at the same levels and within their clean output ranges, they are most likely going to sound more alike than not. In this particular case, the op is looking for a strictly movies oriented system. It this scenario when two fine subs are compared, a bigger size will usually win out. Illka's test data bears this out:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113-new.html
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8149-svs-pb13-ultra-15-hz-tune-new.html

Comparing the deep bass capabilities, things aren't really close.

the epik stuff is just FUGLY to say the least. sorry guys, but they really are some of the worst lookign subs around...
Warning : highly graphic image.
http://www.whitecapwindsurfing.com/images/forSale/epikA.jpg
Sorry if I made you puke.

sorry, and i know i'm biased a bit, but why isn't ANYONE suggesting a pair or quad MFW-15's??? certainly they hold their own in this category, and are much more attractively priced as i understand it...and yes i own 3. i have also owned in the past:

SVS
HSU
Paradigm x 3
Def Tech x 3
JBL etc.

currently running 3 MFW15's

You have been very fortunate with your MFW-15's and those Diamond finish ones are flat-out gorgeous. Yours is one of many success stories, but surely you are aware of the fairly significant numbers of not-so-successful stories pertaining to the MFW-15. I know you read the boards over at AV123. There are many unhappy campers there. It's hard to ignore the horror stories. I have a difficult time recommending a product that breeds these sort of reports. This no doubt in my mind that a properly operating MFW-15 is an excellent sub. The pair I heard were fine subs, but consistent quality control and a company that keeps it's word counts for a lot in my book.

Warning : highly graphic image.
http://www.whitecapwindsurfing.com/images/forSale/epikA.jpg
Sorry if I made you puke.

no..the Axioms you have sitting there do, but that's my personal taste. I personally think the subs are ugly, especially compared to the beautiful finishes available from other companies, but that's just my choice. no offence meant

You have been very fortunate with your MFW-15's and those Diamond finish ones are flat-out gorgeous. Yours is one of many success stories, but surely you are aware of the fairly significant numbers of not-so-successful stories pertaining to the MFW-15. I know you read the boards over at AV123. There are many unhappy campers there. It's hard to ignore the horror stories. I have a difficult time recommending a product that breeds these sort of reports. This no doubt in my mind that a properly operating MFW-15 is an excellent sub. The pair I heard were fine subs, but consistent quality control and a company that keeps it's word counts for a lot in my book.

oh i agree with you completely, and i do recommend them with a caveate....but i have faith even if it is misplaced that MLS and his company will sort these problems out. yes, i have been fortunate, but until i know actual numbers of bad vs good mfw15's it's hard to say they aren't a great value. i do understand completely, and i even posted over there that i find it completely unacceptable that there are STILL subs going out with hum issues after all this time. that's just BS and i have told them so

That was not my photo, just one I have a link to. I would never have axioms for speakers, and my sub is a7s-450.

The port on that speaker looks like a bunghole....

The port on that speaker looks like a bunghole....


Are you saying you've actually seen a bunghole that size?:eek:

are you saying you've actually seen a bunghole that size?:eek:

eeww!!! Rotflmfao

Are you saying you've actually seen a bunghole that size?:eek:


I take it you have never reached that part of the internet Goatse resides in....

Rofl...:p

quite strange.....

Most ports are smooth and radiused like the one on the subwoofer next to it..