Ok, something has been nagging me and I thought I'd throw this out there. First of all, I'm using a Yamaha RX-V861 receiver with Mirage OMNI 350 fronts, c150 center, and some generic ceiling speakers that came installed in my house for rears. I'm planning on purchasing a HSU Research VTF-2 today.

I've been fairly happy with the sound I get from my system aside from the following issue. I've been listening to Opeth's Watershed album on DVD audio with a DTS surround mix. It sounds pretty phenomenal since it is magnificently recorded with great clarity and detail. I think the recording of the bass guitar is particularly clear and detailed when I listen the album through headphones (a decent pair of Sennheisers). However, when I listen to the record over my speakers I don't get the same level of detail in the bass guitar, it's there but just not defined. Of course headphones are better to recreate this kind of detail but the result through my speakers is definitely disappointing in comparison.

Here's the question, will adding the HSU sub significantly enhance the bass guitar sound? Obviously none of you can give me a definite answer on this but I thought maybe I could get some ideas. Are there any other subs in the sub $500 category that would be better than the HSU in this sort of application? Any comments would be appreciated.

Ok, something has been nagging me and I thought I'd throw this out there. First of all, I'm using a Yamaha RX-V861 receiver with Mirage OMNI 350 fronts, c150 center, and some generic ceiling speakers that came installed in my house for rears. I'm planning on purchasing a HSU Research VTF-2 today.

I've been fairly happy with the sound I get from my system aside from the following issue. I've been listening to Opeth's Watershed album on DVD audio with a DTS surround mix. It sounds pretty phenomenal since it is magnificently recorded with great clarity and detail. I think the recording of the bass guitar is particularly clear and detailed when I listen the album through headphones (a decent pair of Sennheisers). However, when I listen to the record over my speakers I don't get the same level of detail in the bass guitar, it's there but just not defined. Of course headphones are better to recreate this kind of detail but the result through my speakers is definitely disappointing in comparison.

Here's the question, will adding the HSU sub significantly enhance the bass guitar sound? Obviously none of you can give me a definite answer on this but I thought maybe I could get some ideas. Are there any other subs in the sub $500 category that would be better than the HSU in this sort of application? Any comments would be appreciated.

I seem to remember reading that the lowest note on a bass guitar is at around 40 Hz, and yes, a subwoofer can greatly enhance the volume of bass guitar.

Because headphones don't have to move much air, they can easily sound cleaner than loudspeakers, including subwoofers.

At under $500 I don't know that you can do better.

How did you decide on the VTF 2.3 as opposed to the STF-2?

Woops, I named the wrong sub. I'm actually planning on the STF-2. Any thoughts on the difference between the two? It's tough not being able to audition them.

Ok, another question. For the application described above, would I be better off with an 8" sub? I know they don't produce the same impact (necessarily), but would they make up for some of that by providing a little more detail in the higher frequency ranges? I think I would choose detail over impact. Any ideas?

Woops, I named the wrong sub. I'm actually planning on the STF-2. Any thoughts on the difference between the two? It's tough not being able to audition them.

Based on the other speakers in your system, I had a feeling that the STF-2 could get the job done.

The 2.3 will play a little louder (overall) and can be set-up to go down to ~18HZ.

These two are virtually in a different class from each other. The STF-2 will probably meet your needs.

One poster recently upgraded from a ~$250 sub to one that cost more than twice as much. At first he didn't hear much difference. It took him at least several days to start to hear what deeper extension, and (somewhat) greater output sound like. It took demanding material to bring out the differences.

Your situation is a little different in that you are used to listening to bass over headphones. Very few subs will sound as clean as headphones. If you accept that going in, you can probably be happy with the STF-2.

I wouldn't go too small because you will just wish you went with the larger one. I would't go smaller than a 12''. If music is your main concern than a sealed sub would be better for that application. If you are going to use it for mostly movies then you might wan't to go ported. I have 2 sealed subs I made myself and they work great for both. Diy is a way you can go and get a better sub for less money, if you don't mind doing it yourself.:cool:

I wouldn't go too small because you will just wish you went with the larger one. I would't go smaller than a 12''. If music is your main concern than a sealed sub would be better for that application. If you are going to use it for mostly movies then you might wan't to go ported. I have 2 sealed subs I made myself and they work great for both. Diy is a way you can go and get a better sub for less money, if you don't mind doing it yourself.:cool:

I hear you there :) however my wife will flip if I drag some monstrosity into our living room. I think 10" will be the practical limit. Money is also an issue unfortunately. From what I've seen sealed subs tend to cost a lot more since they need more power, am I right on that? I do like the idea of making mt own but I lack the tools/space/time to do that correctly :) I really appreciate all the input. It's really hard finding anyone to talk to about this kind of stuff because hardly anyone messes with audio equipment anymore. Nearly everyone I know is either completely indifferent or thinks Bose is cool :(

The Stf-2 would make your set up sound nicer. If size is a problem with waf that sub is in the smaller range. Still will be huge to some. Then after a few years "if " you feel the need to upgrade going a little bigger wouldn't be so much of a shock to the waf :)

::bjorn:: (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=7912031) asked: Will a sub make mid bass clearer in music?Will a sub make mid bass clearer in music?
================================
*

The short answer is: it might.

But you won't hear it from the sub(the mid bass, that is). A subwoofer typically is set up in the AVR to reproduce bass from 100hz down. You are asking about mid bass, from 100hz up to200-400hz.

This all depends on what your speaker settings are in your AVR or pre/pro. With my AVR, an HK AVR 520 when I set the main (fronts) speaker size as small, I can choose a higher hz xo setting, either 80 or 100hz as compared to 40 or 60hz when I set the size to large. I set to small and xo on the sub to 80hz. This works well for me. I have Infinity IL40s with an 8" woofer.

This releives the woofers in the mains from having to reproduce the very low frequencies. Unless your woofers in your mains are very good, I'd set the mains to small.
For any selfrespecting man this seems contrary, doesn't it?

You should play around with the settings in your AVR and experience it for yourself to see what affect it has on the sound.

As always, YMMV.

Note: get the 12" sub and you won't be looking back. They have the detail you are looking for and that earth shattering sound effects we all bought them for. I have the Infinity PS212, 400 watts. Sound effects are wonderful.

But you won't hear it from the sub(the mid bass, that is). A subwoofer typically is set up in the AVR to reproduce bass from 100hz down. You are asking about mid bass, from 100hz up to200-400hz.No biggie, but I would disagree that mid-bass starts that high. The low E string on a standardly tuned 4-string bass is ~41Hz. An entire octave (12 frets) up from that is only ~82Hz and that is what the low E string on a standardly tuned 6-string guitar is tuned to! The high G string on a 4 (or 5) string bass is tuned to ~98Hz; 12 frets up from there, which is pretty high, is only ~196Hz. The high E string on a guitar is only ~330Hz, which, IMO, is definitely midrange, not midbass. The lowest key (an A) on a standardly tuned 88-key piano is ~27.5Hz, btw. "Middle C" is ~262Hz.


Many of us use an 80Hz crossover with our SMALL speakers. There is plenty of what I would call midbass reproduced, there, by the subwoofer. And if that is not what is really characterized as "midbass", it IS what the OP is asking about. He just may have incorrectly called it "midbass" (I think he used the word correctly, btw). But "midbass" or not, when an 80Hz crossover is used, the sub participates in reproducing quite a bit of the bass present in music. So, a sub that is articulate from 40Hz to 80Hz is very important in music reproduction, IMO.


This all depends on what your speaker settings are in your AVR or pre/pro. With my AVR, an HK AVR 520 when I set the main (fronts) speaker size as small, I can choose a higher hz xo setting, either 80 or 100hz as compared to 40 or 60hz when I set the size to large.How do you apply a crossover to the speakers if their size is set to LARGE? The crossover setting is only applied to the speakers that are set to SMALL. Unless you are using a BOTH/LFE PLUS/LFE+Main-type setting with the LARGE front channel setting, the crossover setting is irrelevant to the front channel bass.


This releives the woofers in the mains from having to reproduce the very low frequencies. Unless your woofers in your mains are very good, I'd set the mains to small. For any selfrespecting man this seems contrary, doesn't it?Most of us DO run our speakers as SMALL. And I assume he will, too. If he doesn't, unless he uses a BOTH/LFE PLUS/LFE+Main-type setting, he won't get ANY bass from his subwoofer with 2-channel music.

Well guys I bit the bullet and ran away with an STF-2 yesterday on eBay. I'll post some reactions once I'm able to test things out. I have put some thought into crossover settings as mentioned above and I will definitely experiment with those. I definitely want the sub to handle some of the lower frequencies that my towers are currently having to deal with. The OMNI 350's have two 5.5" woofers and they really start jumping at higher volumes. They actually produce really decent bass for their size but I think they will sound cleaner with some of the lower frequencies filtered out. And just to respond to the above discussion about "mid bass," that is exactly what I was referring to. Some of the bass lines I was trying to make out in the music are not particularly low, it seems like they get lost somewhere between the guitar riffs and the kick drums. In my headphones it seems like I can clearly make out each string being plucked; over my speakers I can feel them but much of that wonderful detail is lost. I realize that part of the issue is that I have relatively cheap speakers. The OMNI's main strength is their imaging and spaciousness. Violins, acoustic guitars, and such sound fantastic on them. But I also listen to lots of metal and that's when they lose their composure. And, to be fair, I highly doubt that most speaker manufacturer's take music like Opeth into consideration when they design and test their speakers.

On another note, I'm also needing to find a subwoofer cable. I will of course search around the forum but does anyone have any good, quick recommendations?

http://www.monoprice.com/home/index.asp

On another note, I'm also needing to find a subwoofer cable. I will of course search around the forum but does anyone have any good, quick recommendations?There are no special requirements for a sub cable. Any decent RCA interconnect will do.

Just ordered the Monoprice cable, pretty sweet deal. Thanks :)

Love the sub. I had some trouble with calibration and such. Well, honestly I goofed and moved the sub and didn't think to recalibrate. It sounded like crap and I was in shock. Recalibrated, now all is well. :D

Move the speakers around I mean do you have a uniform frequency response from each of the LCR fronts use matching fronts, now then. and do you have uniform response over the seating area I bet you’ve got a few peaks and dips.

Test the sub out along with fronts LCR 100Hz sine wave do you have uniform response within a few db no huge amounts or no huge dips. It took me several hours yesterday to nail down a uniform response in tight seating area. Talk about a dog’s dinner.

If the sub is missing a few notes because you don’t just want 10Hz I mean what is the point with that most if not all soundtracks don’t go that far down the few that do are load of rubbish as film. :rolleyes:

In real life most tones I feel when travelling on the yellow Bournemouth buses is above 40Hz The rest is hard to tell and so big what big damn deal if there is infrasonic if I want to feel sodden infersonic I can place my hand on my tummy and move it up and down,, there infersonic, now then.

I can’t prove it of course but if I had portable RTA I could analyze the frequency response. It sound is uniform inside the humming of the diesel engine its pitch I can hear going though the range is wicked, best sub bass for £1.90. :D

You’ve got to hump your sub around the room, just don’t let the wife see you humping the sub she might get the wrong idea?:D

Merry Christmas :)

"You’ve got to hump your sub around the room, just don’t let the wife see you humping the sub she might get the wrong idea?"

Ha ha..as long as it is sealed..no worries. But a ported sub, that would look just wrong....:D