I received a bid to install the majority of a sound system in my family room. I bought myself an Denon AVR888 already, and our walls have been prewired for speakers. I'll post the portion of the bid that deals with everything being installed below. Anyway, I googled around, and looked at the stuff in the bid, and it seems like I could get some of it cheaper, and do some of the install myself. I'm not going to do the inwall/ceiling speakers myself, I'll let them take care of that, but I could do the atlantic LR and C speakers myself I think, I just need to run wiring and connect them to the receiver. Also, for the sub, I believe I can get it a lot cheaper than the 400 he has listed. Does the sub need anything special to be installed? I think I could also do that one myself. As for the sonance speakers in the ceiling, I was reading and people seemed to not like "in the ceilling" speakers. I'd greatly appreciate any input, recommendations, or questions about this bid, as I really want to get this system put in. Here's the bid:

Sure you could do all of that yourself. However, since it doesn't sound like you know a whole lot about HT, you'd probably be spending an inordinate amount of time researching how to do what they will be taking care of for you. I mean, you can do pretty much anything by yourself, the question is whether you have the knowledge, skills, and tools to do it. In addition, the time to learn as you go, and learn before you start.

That being said, it seems like the only thing here that is actually being "installed" physically anywhere is the in-ceiling rear speakers, which isn't that hard as long as you're certain that the wire is in place and you know where it is.

The fronts and subwoofer sound like they're just being hooked up which is very simple.

I don't see anything there about programming or anything like that, so it doesn't sound like there is much going on here besides some generic equipment and connecting it together in a very straightforward system, with no control system. If you are at all technically capable, I would do it myself and devote the funds towards upgrades or the like.

Well with the in ceiling speakers, the same guy thats doing the install this time put the wiring in the walls about 2 years ago when we expanded the house, and I have no idea where they are, and I have a feeling he might not either, but I know they're there. I think I'm gunna just do the install my self with everything except the ceiling ones. Are these prices reasonable? Any other comments or input? Thanks for your help!

they're not unreasonable.

Ok, I talked to the guy again. I got a set of LR Atlantic 1200 by myself for 49 bucks... new w/ warrenty. The guy said for the center channel he was just selling us a third L/R speaker as the center speaker, instead of an actual one. Would doing that make much of a difference? I can get a silver Atlantic 1200 actual center speaker for 132, but the rest of the speakers are black. Or I can pay 234 for a black one, exact same model. Should I just go with the one he's selling? I know color shouldn't matter that much, but it's sitting at the back of my mind. Here what amazon says about the differnece between the center and LR models... " The (center) speaker houses a pair of 4-inch graphite-loaded homopolymer (GLH) midwoofers and an advanced 1-inch soft dome tweeter--similar to the 1200 LR front-channel speakers but with an extra woofer.". What would you guys do..?

The guy said for the center channel he was just selling us a third L/R speaker as the center speaker, instead of an actual one. Would doing that make much of a difference?

Should I just go with the one he's selling?

What would you guys do..?A 3rd speaker in the center that identically matches your L/R speakers is the ideal situation. It'd be best to use it vertically but, based upon the pics at the AT website, that speaker will probably work well on its side, too, if you have to lay it on its side.

Whether your dealer knows what he is doing or not, he is actually selling you the best speaker you could get to use as the center with your L/R speakers. If he does know what he is doing in selling you a 3rd matching speaker, kudos to him.

By all means, take the 3rd 1200.

His prices look reasonable. Keep in mind also, that you're not just paying for some boxes of product, but you're also paying for a service. Try to look past the bottom line and look at the project as a whole. What if there is a problem with a piece of equipment that you provide? He won't deal with it. You will have to. If he provides everything including all installation, he's now married to that job and has accountability. If he installs something that he sells you and there is a any sort of problem, that is on him to deal with. You save your sanity. What's that worth? You're not just buying some boxes of "stuff." You're buying "him."

In business contracts, both parties should be happy and comfortable, IMO. If a customer starts picking apart the bid and buying stuff online to save a dollar here and there, the contractor may grow to resent the client. In the future, when his services are needed again, he may not be so inclined or eager to provide them. Then, you may have more frustration to deal with when it comes time to programming that universal remote, or moving the system into your new home, etc.

Ugh now I feel bad... I got a revised bid from him, not including left and right speakers, and installation. He was the one who originally suggested that I could install the bookshelf speakers myself, and I decided to do so. He's doing all the in wall installing and I'm buying all the cable through him. What you talked about is what I originally felt when I was looking at the stuff on the bid online, but I found the $300 set of LR for 50, new with warrenty, and I really couldnt justify not saving $250. This same company installed my networking, phone, cable, and antenna sockets throughout the house when we built out, and it's been great, I've only had minor problems that have been easily fixable. I'm pretty capable when it comes to av, computers, I know what I'm doing(most of the time). I do feel bad about taking stuff out of the bid, and doing the install myself, but most of this stuff I KNOW I can do myself. I always self troubleshoot anyway, as its just a hassel to have people come in and fix stuff, plus its costly.

So the guys are here right now installing speakers.. they moved my receiver out before they pressed the total power off button on the front, and the wires shorted out. They then unplugged it becasue it made poping noises. They unplugged all the speakers and then plugged the receiver back into the power outlet and there was a really loud noise and they said they saw sparks, and now my receiver won't turn on at all. They told me to call denon and get it replaced since it's under warrenty...?

Have you paid them any money yet? That's BS.

No we haven't payed yet. Here's the complete story.

I was sitting in the other room as this was going on, and I hear a bunch of weird sounds, then one of them said did you unplug it, and then the other said I think so, other said- No you unplugged the cable box, plug it back in...

then they made sure it was rebooting.

they then unplugged the receiver from the power, unplugged all the speakers, and plugged it back in. There was a really loud noise, and they unplugged it again. One of them said they saw sparks.. they got up and said the wires that I had installed were stripped too much and it caused a short and blew up the receiver. They then asked if it was under warranty and told us to send it in. The guy here called the head guy of the company, who offered to take it in to their repair center or whatever, and see if it is under warranty to be fixed. If it's not, they offered to pay half of the repair cost.

What I think happened:
Our receiver has a power button and a standby button, the standby makes the little ring around the button turn red, and the receiver shuts off. The power button is a button that pops out when pressed, and shuts off all power to the receiver. I don't think they pressed the button, but I can't be sure as I didn't see it. They took my receiver with them, and brought a replacement one... it's an old NAD receiver. It's not HD either, so everything is hooked up thru composite cables. Anyway yea.. now I have an old receiver, no HD, and might have to pay half of a repair cost for something that had nothing to do with me. But I DO have speakers above my couch now... yay?

Even if the wiring that you installed caused the problem, they assumed the risk once they started working on the gear. It's good that they put in a loaner to get you by, but you shouldn't have to pay for any part of the repair, if required.

they then unplugged the receiver from the power, unplugged all the speakers, and plugged it back in. There was a really loud noise, and they unplugged it again. One of them said they saw sparks.. they got up and said the wires that I had installed were stripped too much and it caused a short and blew up the receiver.

Even if the main power switch was not off and even if the speaker wires touched while the until was on standby it would not blow a receiver. When the receiver is on standby there is still no power going to the speaker terminals until the rely allows power to the terminal 3 seconds after the standby button is pushed. If the receiver was in fact on, it still wouldn't matter unless there was a signal going to the receiver and the channel shorted out. Even then the receiver has protection against such an occurrence. Even if the protection didn't activate quick enough it would have most likely damaged the amplifier but wouldn't take the whole receiver down. They did something really stupid. I don't know what it was but it wasn't your fault. Kwkshift is correct. They assumed responsibility of your stuff when they started disconnecting it. I don't ever let anybody touch my stuff. If some installer needs something disconnected or reconnected, I do it. I wouldn't care If I'm paying them to stand there and watch me. I know that part didn't help but service companies make me furious and I refuse to trust anyone to just get the job done without very close supervision.

So basically the only way this could have happened was if they didn't turn the receiver off before they moved it. Even then, if it shorted, this still shouldn't have happened?

I have disconnected and reconnected speakers and interconnects on both of my receivers accidentally while they were on and have even shorted speaker wires together and caused the receivers to click off on protection. They are lying to you. Receivers are not that wimpy especially Denons. I have seen a spark or two when I've accidentally shorted out speaker wires and that is to be expected. It's a very very small spark. Now the even bigger question is if they saw that your speaker wires were over stripped, why in the world did they not trim them? Not like it would matter anyway, because in order to do ANY possible damage to the receiver by shorting the speaker terminals, there would have had to been speaker output. In other words unless they were playing music through your receiver while they were disconnecting the wires, you could connect wires to each speaker terminal and tie them all together at the other end shorting out every single one of them and it would do nothing to the receiver.

I don't quite know how it happened. If the receiver doesn't turn on anymore that is a power supply issue. There could have been some sort of surge that took it out. Either case, I wouldn't give them a dime or the job. I would hand them their sh!t piece receiver and say I don't wanna see you guys back ever. Unless it is just a simple problem, that Denon will be cheaper to replace than repair. I'd tell them if they want the job then they will cover all losses, not just half. If they have any kind of sense they will agree since a comparable Denon to yours is not that expensive. Tell them it's all or nothing. Don't reason with them or bargain. Don't let them sell you another receiver at some prorated price either.

That's what I'm thinking too. I got the denon I have (had), the AVR 888 for 270... Which was the lowest I could find. If it has to be replaced, I doubt I'm going to be able to find it that cheap again.

Good news and bad news. The guys came to reinstall my receiver, after having it fixed with no cost to me. I came home this afternoon, as it was installed while another member of my family was present, and I switched the source to the cable box, which is hooked up with HDMI. The center channel speaker was making a weird staticy noise with all the sound it played.. like all the sound that came from the center was distorted. I tried hooking up the cable box with component cables instead of HDMI, and the sound was fine. I then plugged in my PS3 using HDMI and played a blueray, and the distortion was there again. I've already called and told them whats going on... waiting to hear back. I got a work order from the place that repair the receiver.. I'll attach it. I don't know what any of the part numbers are on it though, so if anyone can further explain what the problem may have been by what was replaced in the receiver.. what would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: More info: It's not HDMI like I thought, it's happening with all input types. Heard back from the guy.. he seemed kind of angry and he said he doesnt want to come out and having it end up being some setting problem. I factory reset the receiver, same problem exists. I redid the setup, same problem, I switched my LR speakers to the center channel, that makes them sound bad. I also tried switching DSP effects, and it made no difference. The guy on the phone suggested it could be reverb, but it definitally doesn't sound like that. I'm pretty sure it's the center channel in the receiver that's broken or something... any ideas of a way to fix it/ make sure?

Bump, new info added. Anyone have ideas?

Sorry to hear about the terrible service the business has offered. Did you pay yet? My advice: try to go in on a day with a lot of shoppers and talk to someone about it. Be loud, but don't yell. If the other customers hear you, they'll walk out in no time and the business should be more at your fingers.

You paid to have the equipment set up and ready to watch a movie, not troubleshoot audio problems on the internet.

seriously...just hold payment until they fix the problem....Bad situation...heck with a little research on the net sounds like you could have done a better job your self.

Did they not try it out when they set it up the second time?


Best of luck

The guy I talked to on the phone said the guy he sent said he checked it, but I wasn't home so I don't know what happened. If he DID check it and he didn't notice this, then something's wrong with his ears.

The guy on the phone suggested it could be reverb, but it definitally doesn't sound like that.

Yeah, because reverb effects sound just like distortion. You need to either get a brand new comparable receiver out of these guys or dump them and cut your loses. You shouldn't have settled to let them fix it. Whenever ANY service company has done you wrong, you never let them repair the damage. You make them pony up the money. Just like if you get served cold food at a restaurant, you never send it back for a new one. You eat the cold one and tell the manager you want it off your bill and then some. There is no excuse. Service companies will toy with you and try to WEAR YOU OUT till you have no fight left in you and choose to just learn your lesson after you spent more time and money than you should have. I work for a service company, I know how it works. Don't get screwed by these people. Your number one weapon against them is knowing exactly what you want. For example when you talk to them and they ask you that golden question, "What do you want us to do about it?" You tell them exactly what to do, and if they don't do it, it's curtains! You've been more than fair to them and tried to be civil to them and all they wanna do is see how little they can pay and do to appease you and get outa dodge. You still have all the money and they have none. Keep it that way until all the demands are met. Don't let some nice talkin' sales person diffuse your anger and cause you to slip the company any money. Your best course of action is most likely just to tell them to get the hell out and don't come back, and replace your receiver yourself. If it were me, that's exactly what I would do. I wouldn't want them to touch anything else of mine and do some half ass job on something I paid tons of money for. Your receiver is a bad loss. Weigh the cost of the receiver against what things could potentially end up costing you. Either way you go KEEP THE MONEY IN YOUR HAND, NOT THEIRS. Good luck.

Well.. for anyone it may concern.. we're supposed to get our receiver back next friday. I can't wait to see what it sounds like. Maybe it'll work this time, who knows. It's been over a month since they took it, so they must have done something I hope.

Here's hoping everything goes well!

They came, hooked up my receiver, and it sounded exactly as it did a month and ahalf ago, still distorted on the center channel. Now I guess they're sending it to Denon, I have no idea anymore...

That sucks. I'm sorry for your troubles. Don't they have a 'loaner' receiver they can put in there to get you by until yours is sorted out? Even a basic/used $300 unit will work.

I've had their loaner unit for longer than I've had my actual receiver.... their's is a NAD something, and it's pretty old, but at least it works I guess, right? hahah

Did you (or they) attach either the L or R to the center channel output on the Denon. Maybe, whatever happened the first time, toasted the center channel speaker itself? The center speaker could have a problem or there's a problem in the wiring to the center channel.

I tried that myself, I tried LR and the rear speakers, any way I did it, the distortion was there. The place they brought it too said they couldn't recreate the problem... which seems strange to me, becasue as soon as they brought it back here, you could hear it completely. I don't know whats going onnnn, I just want my receiver working againnn

It's almost april! Tomorrow a guy is coming back to put back in my old denon! I haven't seen it in three months, I'm so excited! .... It better work this time, that's all I can say.

It's almost april! Tomorrow a guy is coming back to put back in my old denon! I haven't seen it in three months, I'm so excited! .... It better work this time, that's all I can say.


I say that if this isn't fixed right to have them buy you a "NEW" one. You might just have more problems with this receiver in the future, and then you won't be able to blame the service company, unless it is still under warranty.

I think you should still get a new receiver. They blew it up and you're the one that's been paying the price.

I really shouldn't... but I'm going to.

Yeah, because reverb effects sound just like distortion. You need to either get a brand new comparable receiver out of these guys or dump them and cut your loses. You shouldn't have settled to let them fix it. Whenever ANY service company has done you wrong, you never let them repair the damage.

Since when is fixing a problem a bad thing? Accidental hole in your sheetrock while hanging a TV - do you want them to rebuild your wall?

You make them pony up the money.

This is an excellent way to build a relationship with a company.



Just like if you get served cold food at a restaurant, you never send it back for a new one. You eat the cold one and tell the manager you want it off your bill and then some. There is no excuse.There is no excuse. Service companies will toy with you and try to WEAR YOU OUT till you have no fight left in you and choose to just learn your lesson after you spent more time and money than you should have.

I don't know about the world that YOU live in, but servicers rely on... no, that's not a strong enough word - REQUIRE referrals to stay in business. If you are treating your customers in a manner that they will want to cut their losses after dealing with you, you're not going to be in business for very long.

I work for a service company, I know how it works.

Well, we know our problem now. This isn't "how it works".


Don't get screwed by these people. Your number one weapon against them is knowing exactly what you want. For example when you talk to them and they ask you that golden question, "What do you want us to do about it?" You tell them exactly what to do, and if they don't do it, it's curtains! You've been more than fair to them and tried to be civil to them and all they wanna do is see how little they can pay and do to appease you and get outa dodge. You still have all the money and they have none. Keep it that way until all the demands are met.

Why is there supposed to be a "weapon" and what to "curtains" have to do with this? :D

Seriously though - if this is your attitude when working with your clients or with other service business, it's no wonder you have such a terrible outlook. There are no demands, only requests and expectations. Have you heard the phrase "you get more bees with honey than vinegar"?

Don't let some nice talkin' sales person diffuse your anger and cause you to slip the company any money. Your best course of action is most likely just to tell them to get the hell out and don't come back, and replace your receiver yourself. If it were me, that's exactly what I would do. I wouldn't want them to touch anything else of mine and do some half ass job on something I paid tons of money for. Your receiver is a bad loss. Weigh the cost of the receiver against what things could potentially end up costing you. Either way you go KEEP THE MONEY IN YOUR HAND, NOT THEIRS. Good luck.

It's pretty easy to figure out what's going on here, let me help you out.

The OP got a quote and was surprised at what people charge for their services. It's call operating a business long enough to continue serving those that got you to be able to talk about your business in a past tense. He shopped online and forgot the value that a local dealer can provide. He purchased some equipment on his own and the A/V dealer agreed to install it - and this is where things went bad. The minute that dealer agreed to take on the products that weren't his he opened a giant can of worms. But in a slow economy, who blames him? He's probably doing all that he can to keep his crew and their families in their homes until things pick up.

I can say with a fair amount of confidence that the owners "technicians" entered the home, began their work, screwed up and didn't want to own up to the issue for fear of being docked pay or losing their jobs. They told their boss a story, potentially about how rude and offensive the OP was and the boss had no decision but to side with them.

I have to agree with a poster (Erskine) who said the center is probably fried - this will easily be answered when the OP replies with his new receiver findings. If that doesn't fix it, he needs to revisit the business owner and have a face-to-face. Situations like this never end up well when handled over the phone. If he is a reasonable man, he should be willing to help you out in any way possible.

To the OP: Do yourself a favor and don't take AVS too seriously, especially when asking about A/V dealers. :rolleyes:

I received a bid to install the majority of a sound system in my family room. I bought myself an Denon AVR888 already, and our walls have been prewired for speakers. I'll post the portion of the bid that deals with everything being installed below. Anyway, I googled around, and looked at the stuff in the bid, and it seems like I could get some of it cheaper, and do some of the install myself. I'm not going to do the inwall/ceiling speakers myself, I'll let them take care of that, but I could do the atlantic LR and C speakers myself I think, I just need to run wiring and connect them to the receiver. Also, for the sub, I believe I can get it a lot cheaper than the 400 he has listed. Does the sub need anything special to be installed? I think I could also do that one myself. As for the sonance speakers in the ceiling, I was reading and people seemed to not like "in the ceilling" speakers. I'd greatly appreciate any input, recommendations, or questions about this bid, as I really want to get this system put in. Here's the bid:

This may surprise you, but places don't give you bids so you can shop them online, especially when most of the joints you "find things at" are unauthorized and cannot/will not install anything. Smart retailers will not either, especially the ones you burn with this surreptitious activity.

So you can find anything you want anywhere for any price; good luck with the actual integration. I see you making comments like "cheapest I could find it", and other drib.

Chris_006 is dead-on on all counts. It is SHOCKING that some net-bought receiver is the culprit! I'd tell you to send it back to JoeBlow.com and have them deal with it, since they're the warranty holders anyway. 9/10 service issues are with items purchased from God knows where. Also, did you not purchase that speaker from some other shady joint? The same speaker that's plugged into the problematic center channel input on your internet receiver?

You're lucky they call you back.

BTW - Mr. Audio, kick rock. You're the reason the customer's not always right.

In the end, "cheaper" wasn't really inexpensive was it?

In the end, "cheaper" wasn't really inexpensive was it?

If you buy a car, but what you have delivered is a crate full of parts dumped on your driveway, the end result will be unsatisfactory and more expensive.

OP took a similar approach.

The moral of the story here is:


Do it yourself. Electronics manufacturers that make all in one receivers (amp + pre-amp) tend to design them so they're pretty easy to hook up. And there are plenty of resources on the web to learn the basics of home theater.

or

Do better research and find a reputable installer. I know big boxes like BB aren't ideal, but at least you know you probably won't get ripped off on an installation.

However, I can understand why someone wouldn't want to install in-wall speakers themselves........

The moral of the story here is:


Do it yourself. Electronics manufacturers that make all in one receivers (amp + pre-amp) tend to design them so they're pretty easy to hook up. And there are plenty of resources on the web to learn the basics of home theater.

or

Do better research and find a reputable installer. I know big boxes like BB aren't ideal, but at least you know you probably won't get ripped off on an installation.

However, I can understand why someone wouldn't want to install in-wall speakers themselves........

I was harsh with the OP, because I will tell you that there are MANY "installers" not worth the business license. That said, I do agree with molecom; choose one path. Do it yourself, or don't. Do not damage the process by attempting to source product on a bid from who-knows-where, especially if you intend to hold an installer responsible for the installation of that product. It isn't fair, and will damage your chances of getting an equitable shake from the integrator of choice. He will (rightfully) wonder what he owes you if something goes wrong, since due consideration was not paid upfront by you.

I did feel bad about picking apart the bid and offered to pay the man who made it up for his time to try and make up for it, but he declined my offer. I purchased everything from them except the pair of front LR speakers, which I found BOTH for $40 with warrenty, and I couldn't pass that up, compared to the price he had quoted me for each seperate. The recevier is back in my home working well, no problems yet that I've noticed. Everything sounds great, and I agree I should have just done all this myself, it would have saved so much time, money, and effort but I tend to underestimate my abilities when it comes this stuff, as I'm more of a computer guy. Well I've paid them what I owed them, and I have a working receiver after many months of waiting... so I guess I'm happy. The company that did this install previously worked on my house when we were building out, and they put network,phone,cable,TV sockets in all the rooms, as well as a rack downstairs for all the networking equipment, and I was more than satisfied with the service and they were always really nice about it. This guy that they kept sending to replaced my receiver and do the install gave off the "I'm know what I'm doing, get out of my way" vibe.. but I know the man who owns the company and he is very nice.. I don't know, I just hope I don't have to do any more business with them. Thanks for your help guys.