Firstly, thanks again to bfdtv for the outstanding first post maintenance! Please consider the following questions for possible FAQ inclusion:

1) I can view closed-captioning on the original broadcast, but I do not seem to be able to view it with the recorded version of the show. Where did it go?

2) Is there any way to advance through the program guide by more than 1/2 hour at a time? Specifically, I would like to advance one day at a time to be able to see if a show repeats daily, M-F, or what.

3) Is there any way to delete a channel from the program guide, but NOT from the program list? This is a slightly different question than the one covered in FAQ #8. What I'm looking for here is a way to delete guide listings for things like weather subchannels that never change, that I would *never* record, but that I will sometimes watch. That way I can view more *real* channels at one time on the guide, but still can have access to these channels.

4) What happens when the hard drive becomes full? I can imagine a couple of possibilities:
- The unit stops allowing all DVR functions, but otherwise all else works. IOW, it has the same behavior as if no hard disk is installed.
- The unit continues to work as normal, but deletes old recordings, starting with the oldest one first, but preserving recordings that have the 'Protect' flag set. This would be a sort of FIFO type of operation.
- The unit locks up or crashes. (I had to include this, as that's what many computer devices do!)

5) Is there any way to use this unit with an antenna with a rotor, such as controlling the antenna somehow? Currently I cannot see NBC without rotating my antenna. This is due to a nearby NTSC signal which I receive through the *back* of my antenna with a signal strength that is about 50 dB higher than the ATSC signal of my main NBC station and at the same frequency. Fortunately, it appears that this problem will disappear with the analog switch-off in February, but I thought I would ask, since others may need to control a rotor even after February.

6) Can you please add answers to FAQs that we would like to ask, but haven't thought to, yet? :D

Also, please consider adding a list of known issues with the DTVPal DVR to the first page so that newcomers can find them in one place.

Thanks again!

Reg

Edit: 7) Is there some way to determine how much hard disk space is used/available?

This is my understanding of #4- The unit continues to work as normal, but deletes old recordings, starting with the oldest one first, but preserving recordings that have the 'Protect' flag set. This would be a sort of FIFO type of operation.

I second more of this:

6) Can you please add answers to FAQs that we would like to ask, but haven't thought to, yet? :D


edit: Also, I advocate:
• a bookmark feature
• deleted timers don't need to be listed in the 'Daily Schedule'

Great work.
With all this good testing going on with this box maybe it is time for a separate DTVPal DVR Hacks 'N Mods thread

RE: Posts on increasing hard drive space. firmware mods..

I'll second a separate thread focusing on just Hacks N' Mods

.

2) Is there any way to advance through the program guide by more than 1/2 hour at a time? Specifically, I would like to advance one day at a time to be able to see if a show repeats daily, M-F, or what.


Press SKIP FORWARD on the remote to move 24 hours ahead and SKIP BACKWARD to move 24 hours back.

(Manual, p. 11)

Or, any time you're in guide mode, press the number keys to specify a number of hours (such as 48) and press the right arrow key to skip forward that many hours, left arrow to skip back that many hours.

Or (not asked but handy), any time you're in the guide and want to move to a particular channel, just enter the channel number (such as 35) and wait. With no arrow key, it will move to that channel number in the guide without going backwards or forwards in time.

Or (not asked but handy), any time you're in the guide and want to move to a particular channel, just enter the channel number (such as 35) and wait.

Better still: Enter that channel number (such as 35) and hit SELECT. Eliminates the wait.

This also works when viewing live TV. Enter the main channel number and hit SELECT and you go right there. You can go straight to a subchannel by entering all those leading zeroes (such as 03502 to go right to 35.2)

Firstly, thanks again to bfdtv for the outstanding first post maintenance! Please consider the following questions for possible FAQ inclusion:



5) Is there any way to use this unit with an antenna with a rotor, such as controlling the antenna somehow? Currently I cannot see NBC without rotating my antenna. This is due to a nearby NTSC signal which I receive through the *back* of my antenna with a signal strength that is about 50 dB higher than the ATSC signal of my main NBC station and at the same frequency. Fortunately, it appears that this problem will disappear with the analog switch-off in February, but I thought I would ask, since others may need to control a rotor even after February.




Edit: 7) Is there some way to determine how much hard disk space is used/available?


#5 - This is a riot....Anything else you want it to do?


#7 - Yes - there is a display that shows the number of hours left for SD and HD recordings. The actual disk space free is not an indicator of what amount of recording time is left. Video is not data like bytes. What's in the video determines how large or small a show is. A 1 hour test pattern will use alot less disk space than a 1 hour action movie

A very thorough testing scenario! Thank you for this.

What are the buffer sizes of the drives you tested above...and could this be a potential cause of the image breakups on the recorded materials?Please let me be more clear: The breakups were not JUST in the recorded material. The breakups occurred in programs that I watched LIVE while this drive was installed.

Here are the buffer sizes for these drives:

Included hard disk Western Digital WD2500AAJS (250 GB 3.5"): 8 MB
Western Digital WD10EACS-00ZJB0 (1 TB 3.5"): 16 MB
Seagate ST9500325AS (500 GB 2.5"): 8 MB
Western Digital WD2500BEVS-60UST0 (250GB 2.5"): 8 MB
Toshiba MK1246GSX (120GB 2.5"): 8 MB

RegGuheert:

Item 5; I would suggest that you add a second antenna with combiner (Winegard CC-7870) over a rotor. The directionality of the second antenna should attenuate the nearer more powerful station plus increase the gain of the desired station. This approach is what I am going to do. My old antenna will be directed to the two desired channels ~180* from my other 23 channels fed by my new Channel Master 4228-HD 8 Bay Bow Tie antenna. No rotor required.

Donald1800

#7 - Yes - there is a display that shows the number of hours left for SD and HD recordings.Great! Where?

Great! Where?
In the title bar of the My Recordings window. :)

RegGuheert:

Item 5; I would suggest that you add a second antenna with combiner (Winegard CC-7870) over a rotor. The directionality of the second antenna should attenuate the nearer more powerful station plus increase the gain of the desired station. This approach is what I am going to do. My old antenna will be directed to the two desired channels ~180* from my other 23 channels fed by my new Channel Master 4228-HD 8 Bay Bow Tie antenna. No rotor required.

Donald1800The problem is that the closer NTSC station (unwanted) is PRECISELY 180 degrees off from the wanted station. I have the older CM4228, which I love, but the front/back ratio is only about 20 dB. As such, I have no chance to ignore this signal. What I do is rotate to another NBC channel with is off by about 90 degrees from these two (and at a different frequency). I could combine two antennas with different pointing angles, but I would loose more than 3 dB doing this, which I cannot afford. (You only get a benefit from combining if you combine the same signal. If you combine two different signals, you LOSE 3 dB.)

In any case, my plan is to wait until February and see what happens, since it appears my problem will be gone at that time. I only asked about the rotor control since I seem to recall seeing a recorder that did this, though I do not remember where I saw it.

Thanks!

Reg

In the title bar of the My Recordings window. :)I see it now! Thanks! :)

So, does this come with a 16MB cache WD2500AAKS or a 8MB cache WD2500AAJS (as said on the first page)?

Press SKIP FORWARD on the remote to move 24 hours ahead and SKIP BACKWARD to move 24 hours back.

(Manual, p. 11)

Or, any time you're in guide mode, press the number keys to specify a number of hours (such as 48) and press the right arrow key to skip forward that many hours, left arrow to skip back that many hours.

Or (not asked but handy), any time you're in the guide and want to move to a particular channel, just enter the channel number (such as 35) and wait. With no arrow key, it will move to that channel number in the guide without going backwards or forwards in time.Awesome information! Thanks!

And to test the disk full behavior, one could use both tuners to record a couple of HD channels all day and find out by tomorrow what happens :)

So, does this come with a 16MB cache WD2500AAKS or a 8MB cache WD2500AAJS (as said on the first page)?My mistake! I misread the datasheet. It is 8 MB, as you say. I will go back and edit the mistaken post. Sorry for the confusion! Thanks!

My one complaint so far is that I cannot create a Favorites list. I've got about 2 dozen channels scanned in with 1/2 of those being out of the area "part time" receivable and several Spanish stations I don't care about. I could delete them but then I can't tune to them directly. Considering all the sub channels, I have a very large list of channels in the guide. It would be nice to have a Favorites list with just the 8 channels I care most about.

I have a question. I have not been able to figure out how to use "Add a New Channel." I enter a new channel I know is coming in and the signal strength shows the DVR is tuned to it, but it doesn't add new services. What do you have to do to actually add the channel? I've been using "Scan for New Channels" even when I know which one I want to add.

Thanks.

Changing the update time or disabling it is not the answer to the random reboots, mine still rebooted. I have not try changing the zip code to all zeros.

So far I am happy with it. Would be extremely happy if they fix this random reboot.

I agree, I don't believe the guide update settings have anything to do with the reboots. As a matter of fact the reboots aren't even reboots, they are power cycles (cold starts). Check your diagnostic menu counters for power cycle counts. My unit registered 14 power cycles last night with no timers scheduled, guide update disabled and the power off (green and red leds off). From what I can tell, the symptoms appear as the red and green LEDs both illuminate, the device hangs for about 30 seconds and then the splash screen appears. I've also experienced this by simply turning it on.

Has it been determined that only a select lucky few of us have seen this or is it pretty much across the board?

My one complaint so far is that I cannot create a Favorites list. I've got about 2 dozen channels scanned in with 1/2 of those being out of the area "part time" receivable and several Spanish stations I don't care about. I could delete them but then I can't tune to them directly. Considering all the sub channels, I have a very large list of channels in the guide. It would be nice to have a Favorites list with just the 8 channels I care most about.That's it! That's what I'm looking for in my question #3 above.I have a question. I have not been able to figure out how to use "Add a New Channel." I enter a new channel I know is coming in and the signal strength shows the DVR is tuned to it, but it doesn't add new services. What do you have to do to actually add the channel? I've been using "Scan for New Channels" even when I know which one I want to add.

Thanks.I believe this is a bug in the firmware. The workaround is to tune to the new physical channel and then click "Scan" briefly to get it to take. (Not the "Scan for New Channels" menu.) Dish should go look at the software they used for the DTVPal Plus, since the "Add Channel" menu in that product worked GREAT! In fact, that add channel menu in the DTVPal Plus was the best I have seen in any ATSC tuner.

Has anyone tried using it with hdmi and component video simultaneously?

Here what I want to do - hook it up to my Sharp Aquos by HDMI and also hook it up to my Slingbox Pro over the component video. Will this work without having to change the settings each time (one of the things I don't like about the Samsung external ATSC tuners)??

Thanks.

3) Is there any way to delete a channel from the program guide, but NOT from the program list? This is a slightly different question than the one covered in FAQ #8. What I'm looking for here is a way to delete guide listings for things like weather subchannels that never change, that I would *never* record, but that I will sometimes watch. That way I can view more *real* channels at one time on the guide, but still can have access to these channels.

One way to remove channels from the program guide and channel up/down surfing, is to lock and hide the unwanted channels. Under the lock menu.
When you want to view them, you need to unlock the unit.

Works the same as the DTVPal.

There is also a reference to "Favorites list" in the troubleshooting section of the user guide.
This may have been left over from converting the user guide from the Satellite DVR. No one has found any favorites list availability so far.

Page 44 .pdf
3. If some channels are missing when you are using the Program Guide or
Browse Banner, you may have locked the DTVPal DVR to hide adult
channels, or you may have applied a Favorites List other than All Chan.
Unlock the DTVPal DVR (see Locks on page 20), or choose a different
Favorites List (see Customizing the Guide and Channel Lists on
page 23), respectively, to show the channels you are missing in the
guide.

Beeper

I, too would like to see a separate Hacks and Mods thread. Some of the advice already given isn't really a hack, but an undocumented feature.
About adding a hard disk: we know, I think, that the DVR operates on a kind of Linux, which uses a different file system. So it is not surprising that you can't see the data or partitions on a PC. However, I did come across a Windows extension that supposedly lets you read Linux-formatted data on a Windows PC (see www.fs-driver.org). Given that the Pal seems to have accepted a disk from a Linux PC, this would seem to confirm this. Somewhere I read that someone had plugged a EHD into the USB port (on a 622, I think) and the box formatted the EHD and then used it. I think you have to pay Dish $40 to get the USB activated on the 622.
On another front, what do you want to bet that the SmartCard carries the encryption algorithm? Isn't that what they do in pay-TV systems?
Also, is it possible to plug the coax output into a NTSC set and get the HDTV programs down-converted like a CECB? If so, I could hook the DVR in the living room up to the TV in my office and bounce the IR off a mirror in the hall. Otherwise, I'll use up my other coupon, and probably not for another DTVPal converter.

I, too would like to see a separate Hacks and Mods thread. Some of the advice already given isn't really a hack, but an undocumented feature.
About adding a hard disk: we know, I think, that the DVR operates on a kind of Linux, which uses a different file system. So it is not surprising that you can't see the data or partitions on a PC. However, I did come across a Windows extension that supposedly lets you read Linux-formatted data on a Windows PC (see www.fs-driver.org). Given that the Pal seems to have accepted a disk from a Linux PC, this would seem to confirm this. Somewhere I read that someone had plugged a EHD into the USB port (on a 622, I think) and the box formatted the EHD and then used it. I think you have to pay Dish $40 to get the USB activated on the 622.
On another front, what do you want to bet that the SmartCard carries the encryption algorithm? Isn't that what they do in pay-TV systems?
Also, is it possible to plug the coax output into a NTSC set and get the HDTV programs down-converted like a CECB? If so, I could hook the DVR in the living room up to the TV in my office and bounce the IR off a mirror in the hall. Otherwise, I'll use up my other coupon, and probably not for another DTVPal converter.All of these questions are answered in the first post.

I think it's a bit early for a "hacks and mod" thread. It's not clear how "hackable" this unit is, if at all, given all the software is stored on internal flash memory (and not the hard drive).

A summary of tips and tricks can be added to a separate section of the first post.

Connected to 34" Sony CRT via HDMI to DVI
Firmware F202TALD
Boot strap 1011TALD
I have the program guide update disabled.
I have my real zip code entered.
I have it set to my real time zone.
My date and time settings are unavailable as they are supplied from TVGuide...and it is always within 3-4 second of Atomic time.
I have Ethernet to box but is/will only be plugged in for updates.
My video memory (VRAM) test is OK.
HDMI diagnosis is correct.
HD PASS or NOT RUN with 0 error count.
No USB device.
My power cycle count is 5 (has been since a day or two after setup).
My exceptions count is 0.

I have seen NO reboot, lockup, restarts (or "maintenance modes") at all.

I hope this might help with the knowledgebase on this issue.

(...) I think it's a bit early for a "hacks and mod" thread. It's not clear how "hackable" this unit is, if at all, given all the software is stored on internal flash memory (and not the hard drive).(...)
It might be a good idea to wait for improved fw (fixes for current problems) before trying to hack the fw. :)

About adding a hard disk: we know, I think, that the DVR operates on a kind of Linux, which uses a different file system.

It uses a Dish/E* proprietary filesystem (DaveSystemDisk) which is what was found in the 500-series DishNetwork PVRs. However the filesystem has been revised quite a bit from those days and it would take much longer than I can afford to decipher. DTV streams stored on the disk are not encrypted as far as I could see.

Connected to 34" Sony CRT via HDMI to DVI
Firmware F202TALD
Boot strap 1011TALD
I have the program guide update disabled.
I have my real zip code entered.
I have it set to my real time zone.
My date and time settings are unavailable as they are supplied from TVGuide...and it is always within 3-4 second of Atomic time.
I have Ethernet to box but is/will only be plugged in for updates.
My video memory (VRAM) test is OK.
HDMI diagnosis is correct.
HD PASS or NOT RUN with 0 error count.
No USB device.
My power cycle count is 5 (has been since a day or two after setup).
My exceptions count is 0.

I have seen NO reboot, lockup, restarts (or "maintenance modes") at all.

I hope this might help with the knowledgebase on this issue.

Thanks Bob - I think it may be a good idea to start logging this data and see what, if anything appears in common with the problematic units:

My setup:

Connected to Sony 40V4150 via 10' HDMI
Connected to Pioneer H520 DVD/DVR with composite
Firmware F201TALD-N
Boot strap 1011TALD
I have the program guide update disabled.
I have my pseudo zip code entered as I don't get TVGOS with my real one, although my Sony does. Have full 1 week guide data.
I have it set to my real time zone.
My date and time settings are unavailable as they are supplied from TVGuide.
I have NO Ethernet to box
My video memory (VRAM) test is OK.
HDMI diagnosis is correct.
HD PASS or NOT RUN with 0 error count.
No USB device.
My power cycle count is 14 since yesterday when I reset it from 19.
My exceptions count is 0.

Seeing you are using DVI to HDMI I disabled the HDMI functions on the Sony to see if that has any effect. If not, we may want to start collecting serial numbers of the ones rebooting.

It's your decision, but to not even give it a try seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face (all over not listing 480i on component).

The point to the www.svideo.com link was to show you that it MAY be possible to find a 480p component to 480i S-video convertor. Which should provide a better picture than composite to s-video.

Honestly - the 480i composite output is NOT that bad, and yes - there are options on the DVTPAL DVR to set it to output 16:9

The cost of such a converter would most likely exceed the cost of a used CRT TV on Craigslist that could already handle 480p.

Thanks Bob - I think it may be a good idea to start logging this data and see what, if anything appears in common with the problematic units:

My setup:

Connected to Sony 40V4150 via 10' HDMI
Connected to Pioneer H520 DVD/DVR with composite
Firmware F201TALD-N
Boot strap 1011TALD
I have the program guide update disabled.
I have my pseudo zip code entered as I don't get TVGOS with my real one, although my Sony does. Have full 1 week guide data.
I have it set to my real time zone.
My date and time settings are unavailable as they are supplied from TVGuide.
I have NO Ethernet to box
My video memory (VRAM) test is OK.
HDMI diagnosis is correct.
HD PASS or NOT RUN with 0 error count.
No USB device.
My power cycle count is 14 since yesterday when I reset it from 19.
My exceptions count is 0.

Seeing you are using DVI to HDMI I disabled the HDMI functions on the Sony to see if that has any effect. If not, we may want to start collecting serial numbers of the ones rebooting.

I take it your is one of the problematic units?
The only thing I see different (other than the physical hookup) is the zip code...pseudo? Would that be the zip code for your CBS station or the fake zip code from the DVR's TV Guide setup routine? If it is for your CBS station then I understand and (should be) no problem. If it is the fake TV Guide setup zip then we may have found something...those are only to be used if you are going to use the DVR as a front end to some TVGOS enabled device (which renders the DVR function of the Pal useless) and the one for my area is the same as the channel number for my local analog PBS station that supplies the analog TVGOS stream until November....could it be this simple???

(...) could it be this simple???
I doubt it.

I was watching a movie tonight via DVD player. During the movie I noticed that the lights on the front-panel of the PAL changed from just the green light to the green & red lights. Earlier when this happened I had to unplug the unit to get it to reset; it would not respond to the remote.

This time since I was watching the movie, I just ignored the event. Sometime during the movie, the unit returned to just the green light on its own.

The red light normally just means that it is recording.

I take it your is one of the problematic units?
The only thing I see different (other than the physical hookup) is the zip code...pseudo? Would that be the zip code for your CBS station or the fake zip code from the DVR's TV Guide setup routine? If it is for your CBS station then I understand and (should be) no problem. If it is the fake TV Guide setup zip then we may have found something...those are only to be used if you are going to use the DVR as a front end to some TVGOS enabled device (which renders the DVR function of the Pal useless) and the one for my area is the same as the channel number for my local analog PBS station that supplies the analog TVGOS stream until November....could it be this simple???

Yes, I have a problematic unit. The zip I'm using is the 'fake' one. When I used my real zip I wasn't getting the TVGuide data, although its the same zip I use in my TV. After entering the 'fake' zip the TV Guide logo appeared and I had a full week of data almost instantly. From what I recall, this unit was also rebooting when the 'real' zip was entered too. By the way, I'm in the Fort Lauderdale area so if someone has a working zip for this area I'd be glad to try it and report the results.

That is unfortunate, and a bad decision by Dish. I will have to call tomorrow and cancel my order. Their documentation sucks being full of confusion factor. It's too bad that it is hardware related and not just a firmware omission that is patchable. I can not continue with either composite or RF re-modulation/ch 3, 4 after using component 480i from other video sources. Dumb!

Donald1800

IMHO you are about to uncover the most serious flaw in the DTVPal DVR. Yes there are some flaws in the initial release but Echostar has not done a bad job. The fact that you have to deal with the idiots at Dish is the worst mistake they made. If Echostar established a dedicated help line or trained the Dish people about the DVR it would make a lot of people a lot happier.

That's it! That's what I'm looking for in my question #3 above.I believe this is a bug in the firmware. The workaround is to tune to the new physical channel and then click "Scan" briefly to get it to take. (Not the "Scan for New Channels" menu.)

Yes, I also found that the Add a New Channel works a little strange (and dumps you back to the menu unexpectedly). But that seam to work: enter the actual channel number, then go down to Scan: and change the Stopped to Started (left arrow button). After a moment it tells how many services it found and if it doesn't have them already, adds them.

My unit however added channels all by itself. When I would go to turn it on, it would announce that services were added. It did this with channels in my area that were too weak to find with Find New Channels or Add a New Channel. It must have briefly saw the channels overnight (I had the unit off). Except for one channel it was able to identify the virtual channel number and station ID. The one channel (3 sub-channels) was only identified by it's actual channel numbers and there ID was simply "DTV".

it was probably doing maintenance

Maintenance or guide download should not preempt any user directed activity like watching TV, recording or playback. Simply speaking, these things should happen when the green light is off. That is the way most people do it and it works.

If these reboots are a result of program errors that require a restart thay is something else but in either case Echostar should fix it.

Does anyone that is having lockup/freeze problem have their unit in any kind of enclosure, i.e. a shelf, cabinet...? Mine is in the flat out open and LUKILY not experienced any of that.

Firmware F202TALD-N
Boot strap 1011TALD
I have the program guide update enabled 1:00AM
I have my real zip code entered.
I have it set to my real time zone.
I do not have TVGOS
I have Ethernet to box but is/will only be plugged in for updates.
My video memory (VRAM) test is OK.
HD PASS or NOT RUN with 0 error count.
No USB device.
My power cycle count is 7
My exceptions count is 0.

TVGOS is said to already be available to 90% or more of the population, so that relatively few are supposed to be without it...


Does that include Digital TVGOS? It is a no go here in Huntsville Alabama.

..1) I can view closed-captioning on the original broadcast, but I do not seem to be able to view it with the recorded version of the show. Where did it go?

...

? Works for me. That was one of the things that impressed me since the whole stream is recorded just press CC and there it is.

I agree, I don't believe the guide update settings have anything to do with the reboots. As a matter of fact the reboots aren't even reboots, they are power cycles (cold starts). Check your diagnostic menu counters for power cycle counts. My unit registered 14 power cycles last night with no timers scheduled, guide update disabled and the power off (green and red leds off). From what I can tell, the symptoms appear as the red and green LEDs both illuminate, the device hangs for about 30 seconds and then the splash screen appears. I've also experienced this by simply turning it on.

Has it been determined that only a select lucky few of us have seen this or is it pretty much across the board?

Good catch on the power cycles. Anybody have their hook up to a good line conditioner or fancy battery backup and have experience the reboots? Mine is just connected to a good surge suppressor.

One way to remove channels from the program guide and channel up/down surfing, is to lock and hide the unwanted channels. Under the lock menu.
When you want to view them, you need to unlock the unit.

Works the same as the DTVPal.

There is also a reference to "Favorites list" in the troubleshooting section of the user guide. This may have been left over from converting the user guide from the Satellite DVR. No one has found any favorites list availability so far.

Page 44 .pdf
3. If some channels are missing when you are using the Program Guide or Browse Banner, you may have locked the DTVPal DVR to hide adult channels, or you may have applied a Favorites List other than All Chan. Unlock the DTVPal DVR (see Locks on page 20), or choose a different Favorites List (see Customizing the Guide and Channel Lists on page 23), respectively, to show the channels you are missing in the guide.

BeeperI agree Channel Lists and a Favorites List were planned features of the DTVPal DVR when the Troubleshooting portion of the User Manual was written. Apparently, prior to customer shipment, they were removed from the unit and also from the "Customizing the Guide and Channel Lists" manual section found on page 23. Hopefully this is a feature that will make it back into the unit in a future update, as I do not consider using locks to be a great workaround.

Thanks!

Reg

Does anyone that is having lockup/freeze problem have their unit in any kind of enclosure, i.e. a shelf, cabinet...? Mine is in the flat out open and LUKILY not experienced any of that.The four restarts within 20 minutes that I reported a few days ago where with the unit sitting fully out in the open in a 60 degree room. No way could that be called an overly hot environment!

Those restarts were with my brother's unit that I had borrowed and that unit never did it before or after that. Now that I have my own, I have yet to experience this problem.

? Works for me. That was one of the things that impressed me since the whole stream is recorded just press CC and there it is.You're right! I figured it should work, but I had a brain fart with the closed-captioning: I tried to turn it on at the TV. Clearly you need to turn on CC where the TV signal is being decoded: at the DVR. I went back to the same recording I tested earlier and it works fine. Thanks!

Donald,
I posted the same question in the other DTV Pal DVR forum, and pabeader, a beta tester, claims it does output 480i over the component outs.

Any users out there care to give it a try to verify?

I connected my DTVPal DVR to my Panasonic SD TV (which only supports component 480i) via the component connection and was NOT successful. Therefore, I believe that the TV must support a minimum of 480p for the component connection (which is consistent with the specs).

I connected my DTVPal DVR to my Panasonic SD TV (which only supports component 480i) via the component connection and was NOT successful. Therefore, I believe that the TV must support a minimum of 480p for the component connection (which is consistent with the specs).I've had people PM me to confirm that, so I added it to the first post.

Good catch on the power cycles. Anybody have their hook up to a good line conditioner or fancy battery backup and have experience the reboots? Mine is just connected to a good surge suppressor.

I should have thought of that for the list:

All of my equipment is on a very good surge protector

Yes, I have a problematic unit. The zip I'm using is the 'fake' one. When I used my real zip I wasn't getting the TVGuide data, although its the same zip I use in my TV. After entering the 'fake' zip the TV Guide logo appeared and I had a full week of data almost instantly. From what I recall, this unit was also rebooting when the 'real' zip was entered too. By the way, I'm in the Fort Lauderdale area so if someone has a working zip for this area I'd be glad to try it and report the results.

There still might be something to this...

Is there anyone having the restart problem that is NOT using the "fake" zip codes from pages 38 to 40 of the manual?
That is, you are having the problem and you have your real zip code in the setup.

I should have thought of that for the list:

All of my equipment is on a very good surge protector



There still might be something to this...

Is there anyone having the restart problem that is NOT using the "fake" zip codes from pages 38 to 40 of the manual?
That is, you are having the problem and you have your real zip code in the setup.
I've only had 1 reboot (knock wood) and I do not use the fake zip codes.

I've had zero reboots (that were not of my own making) and I use my ACTUAL Zip code, not the station's. TVGOS works well FOR ME. YMMV.

And both my satellite DVR and this one are on a UPS (not just a surge protector). I also have the ethernet hooked up all the time.

Does that include Digital TVGOS? It is a no go here in Huntsville Alabama.
yes, I meant digital (since that is what these units get guide data from)...sorry I wasn't explicit.

(A couple of times in this thread, there's a link to a site that indicates what areas - DMAs - already have it, though it's not entirely accurate...

ah, found it: http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos

AND I now notice it's in the FAQs in the opening post)

I went through most of the thread and did not see anything regarding one particular issue.
I have a DTVPal DVR and it was working as expected until last night. Starting last night, it stopped recording (all recording being skipped), but I was still able to pause channels or view previous recordings. Despite skipping the recordings, the red LED would light up when I would press record.

I tried the usual (disk reformat, software update, return to factory default, power cycle) but was not able to record anymore.

Has anyone faced the same issue and have you been able to solve it (hopefully a setting somewhere?)

By the way, after updating the software, I started experiencing the spurious reboot.

There seems to be quite a few problems with these, I guess none of the beta testers had any issues or they just weren't allowed to say anything. Perhaps I should be considering canceling my order and building a HTPC instead, I ordered a DTVpal DVR so I wouldn't have to deal with all these issues...

if you're having reboot problems, just call the number provided and they should send you another unit.

I never had trouble with mine, but there were a few that did.

BTW 480i was a misprint by me. I meant 480p. I know you guys don't agree with me but there is really no difference between component and composite when it comes to everyday TV veiwing. My new polaroid has separate inputs for all the different connection types, and other then the HD, SD difference, there is no noticable difference in PQ.

if you're having reboot problems, just call the number provided and they should send you another unit.

I never had trouble with mine, but there were a few that did.

BTW 480i was a misprint by me. I meant 480p. I know you guys don't agree with me but there is really no difference between component and composite when it comes to everyday TV veiwing. My new polaroid has separate inputs for all the different connection types, and other then the HD, SD difference, there is no noticable difference in PQ.

+1
If your SDTV is over 5yrs old chances are the CRT is showing some wear and the benefit to going from composite to component will be negligible. As I've stated before you can buy used CRT HDTV's for cheap now that everybody wants flat panel sets. If you willing to drop $250 on a DVR, why not buy a used HDTV for the same money or less?

IMHO you are about to uncover the most serious flaw in the DTVPal DVR. Yes there are some flaws in the initial release but Echostar has not done a bad job. The fact that you have to deal with the idiots at Dish is the worst mistake they made. If Echostar established a dedicated help line or trained the Dish people about the DVR it would make a lot of people a lot happier.

Has any one tried contacting echostar directly?
Tech@echostar.com

I've had zero reboots (that were not of my own making) and I use my ACTUAL Zip code, not the station's. TVGOS works well FOR ME. YMMV.

And both my satellite DVR and this one are on a UPS (not just a surge protector). I also have the ethernet hooked up all the time.


Scooper,

Zero reboots?

Wondering which factory your unit came from.;)

As a suggestion to people with units:

Wish people would when referring to "their/my DTVPal DVR" this or that would:

Start their post with the unit's ID STRINGS at the BEGINNING of the post, (Like a letter). Then space down maybe two lines and then go into the body of their post with their concerns /noted problems /observations.


* * ID STRINGS= Means listing the units Firmware,Batch Lot number/Factory number /Production date /Hardware Revision /and or Serial number "range".

EG:
DTVPal-DVR-F202TALD
Lot/Prod date:12-12-2008
Factory ID: Chongquing #13
Hardware Rev: 1.0.000
Serial # Range xxx-xxx-xxx- (with last four, or six digits left off for security reasons)



****

Why post in such a manner?

Most manufacturers have A: Several factories, and B: Source their components from several different sources.
Posting in such a manner is the only way to bring to light where the problematic units are coming from.

(Posting in such a format (ID strings first) also helps in those situations in which a manufacturer is DENYING there is a problem- and the ID strings clearly show that the problematic units are from a certain "batch", factory or serial number range. )


WHY POST the ID STRINGS in the BODY of your post?
If you post the ID string info in the body of the post it ties the problems (and fixes) to units built at a particular factory /batch /time frame, Plus helps those who may be searching for info later on (Note you may be the one searching later on).

Additionally posting such may help DishNetwork get a handle on what the heck is going on.


PS: For those that rely on your "sig" to convey such info keep in mind: A: On some boards "sig's" aren't archived, B: Sig's are changeable- C: On some boards it's a global change affecting ALL posts, and D: On some board "sig's" do not show up in Google searches.

Before anyone starts jumping up and down... A Copy and Paste text file with the info can be easily made, and it only takes a few seconds extra to post the ID strings..

.

My DTVpal DVR: F202TALD-N software
1011TALD bootstrap version
No hardware changes
No surge protector

Spurious reboot every 15-20 mn (noticed only after software update)
Skip all recordings, starting on december 31st
Trick mode still ok

I did contact echostar but I am interrested in anybody having found a work around.

I am using my real zip code
records skips started with original firmware but were not corrected by firmware update

if you're having reboot problems, just call the number provided and they should send you another unit.

I never had trouble with mine, but there were a few that did.


This is not encouraging. Based on the above it appears that the reboot issue, which was known to be present in the beta period, was not fixed before the units went production. Hopefully, everyone who is experiencing the issue is opening a support ticket at Dish - not sure how else to get the folks at Dish to bump the priority of fixing this (assuming it's buggy firmware and not hardware related).

I went through most of the thread and did not see anything regarding one particular issue.
I have a DTVPal DVR and it was working as expected until last night. Starting last night, it stopped recording (all recording being skipped), but I was still able to pause channels or view previous recordings. Despite skipping the recordings, the red LED would light up when I would press record.

I tried the usual (disk reformat, software update, return to factory default, power cycle) but was not able to record anymore.

Has anyone faced the same issue and have you been able to solve it (hopefully a setting somewhere?)

By the way, after updating the software, I started experiencing the spurious reboot.
I may have just experienced something similar. I scheduled a one time recording and everything appeared normal. After the recording was "done" I noticed that the red record light was on. I went to the DVR menu to see what was recording and to view what I had record. What I had scheduled was marked as "skipped" and when I clicked info it had a program description and the notation "Timer skipped on failure to start recording". Nothing was being recorded or listed as scheduled. I pressed the power button and the green light went out (never lost control or had what I would call a lockup) but the red light stayed on. Powered back upt and started and stopped recording a program and the red light went out. Sucessfully started a recording.

I have had several instances where the first time I use the DVR in the day it does not seem to respond to the power button and I have to click it a bunch of times.
I was watching a movie tonight via DVD player. During the movie I noticed that the lights on the front-panel of the PAL changed from just the green light to the green & red lights. Earlier when this happened I had to unplug the unit to get it to reset; it would not respond to the remote.

This time since I was watching the movie, I just ignored the event. Sometime during the movie, the unit returned to just the green light on its own.

Had a few good days since arrival on Dec 24. Took to my sons house for internet update and afew days of no trouble.
The last 2 days.
1. A scheduled program (1 hour) that had worked fine before only recorded 11 min. with a description 'unknown program'.
2. This am message ' Unable to do update-no internet connection'
Is there an update available that HS internet connected folks are getting?
I love the machine - but for non technical folks these bugs and work arounds are not fun.
Bernieoc

Scooper,

Zero reboots?

Wondering which factory your unit came from.;)

As a suggestion to people with units:

Wish people would when referring to "their/my DTVPal DVR" this or that would:

Start their post with the unit's ID STRINGS at the BEGINNING of the post, (Like a letter). Then space down maybe two lines and then go into the body of their post with their concerns /noted problems /observations.

* * ID STRINGS= Means listing the units Firmware,Batch Lot number/Factory number /Production date /Hardware Revision /and or Serial number "range".

EG:
DTVPal-DVR-F202TALD
Lot/Prod date:12-12-2008
Factory ID: Chongquing #13
Hardware Rev: 1.0.000
Serial # Range xxx-xxx-xxx- (with last four, or six digits left off for security reasons)

. . .

Exactly where do you find this information? I looked on the back and on the bottom and do not see it. I only see "Made in China" and some numbers. I looked at the various Diagnostic and System Info screens. If it's inside, well, I'm not ready to open it up just yet. (By the way, the receiver number is R188004xxxx-xx.)

I've also had zero reboots. Looking at the Diagnostic screen, it says I've had 8 power cycles, which coincidentally corresponds to the number of days I've had it. (Does it reboot every night? I believe the Dish DVRs do.) The number of exceptions is zero and it says there is no reset history.

- - - -

I first connected to an HDTV and set preferences. I then moved it to another room, connected to a router and SDTV and upgraded to F202. I then moved it back to the HDTV, so it is currently not connected to the Internet.

Updates are currently enabled at the default 1:00 am. I initially set to my actual zipcode (but no TVGuide logo overnight :(), I then tried the alternate in the manual for Baltimore (overnight TVGuide logo appeared, but no 8 days of guide info :mad:) and finally an actual Baltimore zip (overnight 8 days of guide info finally showed up :)).

I have it on a Panamax surge protector (where the antenna cable also goes through - all my equipment is plugged into either the Panamax or a Monster Cable surge protector including all satellite cables and phone connections). Nothing is on a UPS.

Since disabling the menu>setup>updates several days ago, I have had zero lock ups/reboots. Do we actually know if that setting is for program guide information or could it be for firmware updates? I believe that my Dish 522 satellite receiver has a similar setting, but that it is used to schedule firmware updates to the receiver, not the program guide.

Also, does anyone know how I can program my Dish 522 remote (#2, 6.2 IR/UHF PRO) to control the DTVPal DVR? I still use my satellite and would like to control both the 522 and the DTVPal DVR using the same remote. Thanks.

Also, does anyone know how I can program my Dish 522 remote (#2, 6.2 IR/UHF PRO) to control the DTVPal DVR? I still use my satellite and would like to control both the 522 and the DTVPal DVR using the same remote. Thanks.

Press the AUX button until all 4 mode buttons blink.
Press 3
Enter the Remote address of the PAL 1 - 15
Press the # button.

Since disabling the menu>setup>updates several days ago, I have had zero lock ups/reboots. Do we actually know if that setting is for program guide information or could it be for firmware updates? I believe that my Dish 522 satellite receiver has a similar setting, but that it is used to schedule firmware updates to the receiver, not the program guide.

Also, does anyone know how I can program my Dish 522 remote (#2, 6.2 IR/UHF PRO) to control the DTVPal DVR? I still use my satellite and would like to control both the 522 and the DTVPal DVR using the same remote. Thanks.

Good point. The idea that the reboots occur when downloading guide data was a supposition but what the DVR is doing to cause the lockups and reboots really isn't known.

Several people report that they still get TVGOS after disabling menu>setup>updates but that lockups go away. Perhaps it's a firmware update being queued up. Then, even if an update isn't available, the "new" firmware is booted causing the lockup/reboot. Still supposition, but it fits the fix.

Since disabling the menu>setup>updates several days ago, I have had zero lock ups/reboots. Do we actually know if that setting is for program guide information or could it be for firmware updates? I believe that my Dish 522 satellite receiver has a similar setting, but that it is used to schedule firmware updates to the receiver, not the program guide. That setting is for firmware updates. It has nothing whatsoever to do with guide information.

I connected my DTVPal DVR to my Panasonic SD TV (which only supports component 480i) via the component connection and was NOT successful. Therefore, I believe that the TV must support a minimum of 480p for the component connection (which is consistent with the specs).

Thanks for trying. Good to know but not a deal breaker for me.

That setting is for firmware updates. It has nothing whatsoever to do with guide information.

I still do not get where this information comes from.
As I said here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15416260&postcount=667), "The HELP screen in this option on my box clearly states that this allows you to "Choose a daily time to download the Program Guide infromation.""
If I am missing something...sorry.

That setting is for firmware updates. It has nothing whatsoever to do with guide information.So if one intends to only update via USB and never connect the box to the Internet, that option can safely be disabled.

I still do not get where this information comes from.
As I said here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15416260&postcount=667), "The HELP screen in this option on my box clearly states that this allows you to "Choose a daily time to download the Program Guide infromation.""
If I am missing something...sorry.
I pointed that out in an earlier post as well. I'm beginning to think however that the help file may be wrong.

I still do not get where this information comes from.
As I said here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15416260&postcount=667), "The HELP screen in this option on my box clearly states that this allows you to "Choose a daily time to download the Program Guide infromation.""
If I am missing something...sorry.Page 32 of the manual clearly states that the DTVPal DVR will automatically find and install updates via ethernet while in standby mode, by default. Do you see another option anywhere to disable automatic updates?

The behavior of the box supports this. If the update option is disabled, the box does not automatically download the latest update while in standby, yet it continues to download guide updates from TVGOS.

So if one intends to only update via USB and never connect the box to the Internet, that option can safely be disabled.Yes.

Proposed enhancement request:
With the baseline firmware (F201), a new timer-based (manual) recording can only be scheduled inside a two-week window. While that corresponds to the two week window presented by the program guide, this seems like an arbitrary limit on timer-based recording. I often learn about programming on PBS that is scheduled farther into the future than two weeks. Why should this clever computer not allow me to schedule a recording at ANY time in the future?

I'm ready to submit this enhancement request to Dish. My only question is whether this limit has already been addressed in the F202 firmware. (I'm hanging with the (conservative) folks on this thread who are reluctant to update without knowing what bugs are addressed and/or features promised by the update ...especially with the number of folks speculating that reboot problem gets worse after.) Can someone who has (courageously) updated please try to schedule a timer-based recording beyond the two-week window, please?

Thanks in advance,

Jim

Further impressions and thoughts after a weeks worth of intermittent use:

1) Since I disabled updates three days ago, I have not had any reboots or lockups (touch wood). But I also haven't used it extensively. Today with all the bowl games will be the real test of whether my unit is still rebooting or not. It will be on all day and night. This is on a box with my real zip and firmware F202.

2) I really like the padded recording option on this box. I have set it to pad recordings by a few minutes on the back end. The box is smart enough to pad the recording if a tuner is available. But if other events are scheduled, it will switch over and record the next show without padding the first. Much more preferable to my Comcast DVR where I have to manually pad each recording.

3) What I don't like is it only buffers one channel at a time. Unless you are recording one, and watching (or recording) a second. I really like the ability of my Comcast DVR to buffer two channels, and switch between the two tuners, rewind them if necessary etc etc without recording either tuner.

4) Overall, I'm extremely happy with the DTVPAL DVR. Well worth the $258 that I paid, and it will see a lot of use once first run network TV starts up again.

Proposed enhancement request:
With the baseline firmware (F201), a new timer-based (manual) recording can only be scheduled inside a two-week window. While that corresponds to the two week window presented by the program guide, this seems like an arbitrary limit on timer-based recording. I often learn about programming on PBS that is scheduled farther into the future than two weeks. Why should this clever computer not allow me to schedule a recording at ANY time in the future?

I'm ready to submit this enhancement request to Dish. My only question is whether this limit has already been addressed in the F202 firmware. (I'm hanging with the (conservative) folks on this thread who are reluctant to update without knowing what bugs are addressed and/or features promised by the update ...especially with the number of folks speculating that reboot problem gets worse after.) Can someone who has (courageously) updated please try to schedule a timer-based recording beyond the two-week window, please?

Thanks in advance,

Jim

Two week limit seems to still be in place in F202. I just tried to set one, and 01/15 was as far forward I could go.

Proposed enhancement request:
With the baseline firmware (F201), a new timer-based (manual) recording can only be scheduled inside a two-week window.
As a work around, couldn't you just set a weekly timer? Of course, that would record at that time for the interim weeks but at least it would be scheduled.

Originally Posted by golinux:
Two week limit seems to still be in place in F202. I just tried to set one, and 01/15 was as far forward I could go.

Thanks for trying. I'll submit that enhancement request now.

As a work around, couldn't you just set a weekly timer? Of course, that would record at that time for the interim weeks but at least it would be scheduled.

Exactly the workaround I used. Thanks... but it's still a workaround, and this should be an easy limit to lift.

Thanks for trying. I'll submit that enhancement request now.

Tell DISH that with the DTVPal CECB, a manual timer can be set 6 months and 4 days into the future.

...What I had scheduled was marked as "skipped" and when I clicked info it had a program description and the notation "Timer skipped on failure to start recording"...

That's what I reported on post#349 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15383264&highlight=#post15383264). Glad to know I'm not the only one, but I have not had it happen since.

Good point. The idea that the reboots occur when downloading guide data was a supposition but what the DVR is doing to cause the lockups and reboots really isn't known.

Several people report that they still get TVGOS after disabling menu>setup>updates but that lockups go away. Perhaps it's a firmware update being queued up. Then, even if an update isn't available, the "new" firmware is booted causing the lockup/reboot. Still supposition, but it fits the fix.

Makes sense.

I pointed that out in an earlier post as well. I'm beginning to think however that the help file may be wrong.

True.

Page 32 of the manual clearly states that the DTVPal DVR will automatically find and install updates via ethernet while in standby mode, by default. Do you see another option anywhere to disable automatic updates?

The behavior of the box supports this. If the update option is disabled, the box does not automatically download the latest update while in standby, yet it continues to download guide updates from TVGOS.


I can buy this logic with the above ideas in mind.
The behavior of the box also seems to support that this may very well be the culprit in the reboot (or whatever you would like to call it) issue since some are reporting that the problem stops when this is set to disable.

Thanks for trying. I'll submit that enhancement request now.

How are you doing that?...I can think of a few things that would be nice to have as well.

I'm ready to submit this enhancement request to Dish. My only question is whether this limit has already been addressed in the F202 firmware. (I'm hanging with the (conservative) folks on this thread who are reluctant to update without knowing what bugs are addressed and/or features promised by the update ...especially with the number of folks speculating that reboot problem gets worse after.) Can someone who has (courageously) updated please try to schedule a timer-based recording beyond the two-week window, please?

Thanks in advance,

Jim

Hey, I even had trouble setting a manual timer one day ahead. (I have F202.) Yesterday and the day before I tried setting a manual timer for an event for today. It was on a channel that isn't getting guide data because it's in a different market (though some of the other out of market channels are getting guide data), so this may have been part of the problem, plus going across the year boundary (hopefully it's not the month boundary or that will be a real pain). The error I got was "This event is already recording", which I suspect was not the correct error that should have been reported.

Hey, I even had trouble setting a manual timer one day ahead. (I have F202.) Yesterday and the day before I tried setting a manual timer for an event for today. It was on a channel that isn't getting guide data because it's in a different market (though some of the other out of market channels are getting guide data), so this may have been part of the problem, plus going across the year boundary (hopefully it's not the month boundary or that will be a real pain). The error I got was "This event is already recording", which I suspect was not the correct error that should have been reported.
I've been getting that same error today, but only with one channel. Tried everything I could think of including a format & reboot. It was past the time of day I wanted to set the timer for (10 AM) so it wasn't showing in the guide. I'll try again in the morning from the guide and see what happens (I was able to set timers from the guide today with no problems).

Originally Posted by ProsPops:
How are you doing that?...I can think of a few things that would be nice to have as well.

The only path I could see was to e-mail Echostar's Tech Support department (Tech@echostar.com) ...so I took it.

Jim

Has anyone gotten a response from Tech@echostar.com yet on any topic?

Originally Posted by nolim2873:
Hey, I even had trouble setting a manual timer one day ahead. (I have F202.) Yesterday and the day before I tried setting a manual timer for an event for today. It was on a channel that isn't getting guide data...
<snip>
The error I got was "This event is already recording"...

Originally Posted by Chuck44:
I've been getting that same error today, but only with one channel.
<snip>
It was past the time of day I wanted to set the timer for (10 AM) so it wasn't showing in the guide.

Like you both, I am having no trouble setting timers by choosing a program from the guide, but no success setting manual timers -- and getting the bogus "The selected event is already recording" error (A674) -- if two conditions are true:
- the channel to be scheduled supplies PSIP data only
AND
- the time to be scheduled is beyond the window covered by the PSIP data

Here in Rochester, it would appear that only ABC and PBS are supplying TVGOS data. NBC, Fox, and CBS appear to be PSIP only ...in spite of the fact that the TVGOS stream is broadcast by CBS. I'll be calling my local stations... and reporting this bug to Echostar.

Here in Rochester, it would appear that only ABC and PBS are supplying TVGOS data. NBC, Fox, and CBS appear to be PSIP only ...in spite of the fact that the TVGOS stream is broadcast by CBS. I'll be calling my local stations... and reporting this bug to Echostar.
? the way that TVGOS works is that "the TVGOS data" is a set of data broadcast by a particular station (e.g., PBS analog, until February, or CBS digital) , and THAT DATA SET (received from a single station) contains program data for all the stations in the area. You seem to be describing the TVGOS data as analogous to PSIP data (which is the data that each digital station broadcasts about ITSELF ONLY). Or maybe you mean that the data IN YOUR PROGRAM GUIDE is FOR the stations that you mention, not FROM them.

The program info that is broadcast as part of the TVGOS data all comes from a common source, one of the commercial suppliers of program info, such as what you see in a newspaper Sunday guide, or used to see in TV Guide magazines (or still do)...

Exactly where do you find this information? I looked on the back and on the bottom and do not see it. I only see "Made in China" and some numbers. I looked at the various Diagnostic and System Info screens. If it's inside, well, I'm not ready to open it up just yet. (By the way, the receiver number is R188004xxxx-xx.)

all equipment is plugged into either Panamax or a Monster Cable surge protector including all satellite cables and phone connections). Nothing is on a UPS.

Poster ID: nolim2873
DTVPal DVR
F202
R188004xxxx-xx
Unit received: 12-24-2008
Days of ownership (8)

Reported problems=NONE- Unit working to customer satisfaction.
Reboots=ZERO
Lockups=ZERO
Exceptions=ZERO
Reset history=ZERO
Diagnostic screen, showing 8 power cycles, which coincidentally corresponds to the number of days of ownership.
UPS=NO
Surge Protection=YES, All equipment plugged into either Panamax or Monster Cable surge protector including all satellite cables and phone connections.
Internet connectivity status= NO, only connected to upgrade to F202
Updates currently enabled at default 1:00 am
TVGOS zip, actual zip being used?=NO, Using Baltimore zip- using actual zip gave (0) days guide
Guide fully populated?= YES, 8 days
Customer enhancement suggestions: (Insert comments here)


RE:
A: Finding your units ID strings.
B: Some kind of "standardized format" to post in when reporting "bugs".
(Example standardized format above, feel free to "tweak".)

nolim2873,

I do not have a DTVPal DVR in my possession currently- so I cannot offer any insight on where exactly the various ID strings would be found.

Diagnostic and System Info screens should give you firmware, hardware revisions and serial number, and sometimes a "birth" date. So far as "batch numbers" , or info indicating which factory the unit was produced in, or when the unit was produced if the unit itself is giving no clues to such that info is probably encoded into the serial number.
(Clues might be on the shipping box as well.)


PS: On the "some numbers" on the bottom of the unit you mentioned- that might be the batch lot /factory number... then again it may be nothing.

BTW: My previous post was a "example"- of info that people should be posting. To not post such info is like going to a parts (or repair shop) saying your xyz needs xyz part- (or repair) and expecting the tech or parts guy to give you the proper part or effect the proper repairs not knowing the year, model number, serial number range etc.

.

So I recorded a 2 hour movie yesterday. Decided to watch it this morning. Had 4 reboots.

In addition, I am still regularly having the unit lockup. I'll be watching LiveTV (green light only on). Without notice, the red light turns on, all control via the remote of the DVR is lost, the signal to the TV is gone (I get a blue screen on my TV). On one occasion I left it in this state for 3 hours to see if it would self clear. (no luck). Only solution so far is to unplug.

Real zip code entered. Inactivity option enabled (@4hrs). I could not find the power cycle counter (I looked under the diagnostics menu)

It sounds like either quality control at Dish Network is horrific, or there is some software bug that is causing reboots for some and not others.

Is anyone with reboots using component? Is anyone with reboots using component + disabled software updates? Is anyone with reboots using component + disabled software updates + removed their zip code from setup?

I emailed engineer at my local CBS station, WSBT South Bend, IN and received reply that they have not been contacted to transmit TVGOS data. Mcrovision does not respond to my emails. Does anyone know who to contact to get my CBS station on board? PSIP data is okay but no comparison to TVGOS which I have had on my TV for over 3 years.

I've had my DTVPAL DVR for one week now, and it has been spontaneously crashing and rebooting from 2-6 times a day. It has happened while watching live TV, recording shows, or watching recorded programs.

I just talked to tech support and they said they will replace the unit. I'm wondering how widespread this problem is...

Respond to this post to indicate your wish list for future firmware updates. I'll start with a few items that I have thought of. Hopefully, someone from Dish Network follows this forum! :D

1) Resolve random lock up/freeze/reboot issue.
2) Enable name based recording.
3) Enable maximum number of events for a single timer (automatically delete older events exceeding the maximum specified by user).

Please add in your suggestions!

So I recorded a 2 hour movie yesterday. Decided to watch it this morning. Had 4 reboots.

I could not find the power cycle counter (I looked under the diagnostics menu)

Under diagnostics menu->counters, page down to see the power cycle and exception counters.

Is anyone with reboots using component + disabled software updates + removed their zip code from setup?

I have component + disabled udates + zeroed zip code* (TVGOS still is updated) AND NO REBOOTS.

*Note - actual zip code was entered during initial device startup 'wizard' mode. Subssequent zip code changes: substitute zip code, actual zip code, then zeroed zip code were made via menu selection.)

I've been getting that same error today, but only with one channel. Tried everything I could think of including a format & reboot. It was past the time of day I wanted to set the timer for (10 AM) so it wasn't showing in the guide. I'll try again in the morning from the guide and see what happens (I was able to set timers from the guide today with no problems).
From the guide this AM it worked with no problem.
Just for fun I tried another manual timer set today. If it was for a time already past (trying to set for 7AM at 7:10) I got that same error about that program already being recorded. But if I entered a time that was later than the actual time (set timer for 7:20 when actual time was 7:10) it worked fine.
This quirk happens even when trying to set the program for the following day's date.
I can live with it as long as it's always the same.

I have component + disabled udates + zeroed zip code* (TVGOS still is updated) AND NO REBOOTS.

*Note - actual zip code was entered during initial device startup 'wizard' mode. Subssequent zip code changes: substitute zip code, actual zip code, then zeroed zip code were made via menu selection.)

Are you sure you're getting TVGOS with all zeroes in your zip, or has it defaulted back to PSIP ?

TVGOS - the RED TV Guide OnScreen logo appears on the EPG. If it's not there, you're looking at PSIP guide data.

For those of you having reboot problems how strong is your signal and what type of antenna are you using? Perhaps loosing and relocking the signal is locking the unit up and causing reboot. A long shot I know, but I'd thought I'd ask.

I found an interesting issue with PSIP data and the My Recordings list. I'm in a market with no TVGOS provider and only get PSIP info. Unfortunately, two of our stations are not providing complete PSIP information. One shows "WFFF Programing" in each 30 minute block, the other "DTV Broadcast," again for each 30 minute block.

I knew this beforehand based on my DTVPal CECB, but with the knowledge that I can set manual recordings, I wasn't overly concerned. What I discovered however is that in the "My Recordings" list, it will only show the "WFFF Programming" title, but no date or time. The program description information displayed is either blank (if it is at the top of the list when the list is first displayed) or the description from the recorded program previously selected in the menu. This of course will be a minor headache if the list contains more than one such program, which I haven't yet tried to do.

I have emails into the local stations to correct the PSIP info. One station only recently starting doing this and had previously been OK. The other I had already contacted about it several weeks ago and the station engineer had said he'd look into it (after he fixed the incorrect PSIP time for me, which he did).

-Andrew

I have firmware F202 and have not experienced one lockup since installation Monday Dec 29.

If there is some sort of pattern here in the lockups:
- Atlanta area market
- Signal strength is 80+ on all channels, and I have removed all the "fringe" stations that float in and out
- I have removed the ethernet cable, but have made no changes to "allow or deny updates

Have about 14 hrs on the disk now, and have had no problems with recording or playback. Longest was the Capital One bowl game yesterday, and it recorded / playback just fine....

So far this thing is amazing; The picture quality and sound is soooo much better than the Insignia box I had on my Toshiba before....

The FAQ states that you cannot do the firmware update over dialup, however, I was able to update the firmware through my data connection with T-Mobile. The box is located at my parent's house and they do not have internet service, so I thought I'd give it a shot since they were experiencing the rebooting/restarting/freezing issues.

I connected my cell phone by USB cable to my Samsung Q1 UMPC. I then took a cable and connected the Q1's ethernet port to the DVR's ethernet port. I activated the connection between the phone and the Q1, went into My Network Places in XP, View Network Connections, found the active connection with T-Mobile, turned on Internet Connection Sharing, and the DVR detected a connection. It took awhile but I was able to download and install the update.

This weekend I'm going to take possession of the box and apply more of the suggestions from this forum. I'll also then report back the detailed information on the box to help pinpoint why some boxes are having issues while others are working correctly.

For those of you having reboot problems how strong is your signal and what type of antenna are you using? Perhaps loosing and relocking the signal is locking the unit up and causing reboot. A long shot I know, but I'd thought I'd ask.

Signal strength is good (>80 on all channels). I've power cycled the unit 26 times.

I decided to contact Dish to resolve the problem. Called the number in the manual. Was transferred to tech support. Explained the problems. Almost immediately they decided to send me a NEW unit. (I'm guessing the problem database didn't have this issue entered yet.) NO questions ask.

But their computers wouldn't allow them to set up the return so I'm still in the process of completing the return. The only down side so far is that I'll have to return the unit before they will ship a new one. I'll get more details about the process later today.

I have been gone for a week and just got back yesterday. I had the DVR record a bunch of things while i was gone so that i could check it out when i get back. Well I must say that while this thing isn't perfect (why are the 30 minute recording sometimes 31 or 33 minutes etc.?), this is the best purchase i have made since i bought my first Tivo back in 2002. The picture quality is the best I've seen on any tuner. I am really amazed. And i like the idea of getting free TV and not having to pay cable, Satellite or Tivo monthly fees. And if dish brings on PPV or IPTV, I am all for it. I am saying this using a 32in analog TV so i can just imagine how great it is using a HDTV. While it isn't a Tivo interface, i am getting use to it. Using a learning universal remote makes it even better but i never judge a product on a remote. Hope everyone is having as great of an experience as I am.

There's an option to set or turn off the padding (extra time) for recordings.
When you are creating a timed program click Options.

I started using my DTVPal three days ago and have noticed the following problems:

1. random reboots several times a day
2. occasional lockup, with black screen, recoverable only by unplugging
3. no TVGOS data, even though my market (SF Bay Area) has it available
4. Ethernet connection on DTVPal was dead yesterday (LAN connections would not "light"), but for whatever reason, today it works

I've read all the posts in this thread and realize that these problems have already been noted by others (with possible exception of Ethernet problem). I'm chiming in to help people see that there are multiple people having these problems.

I'll call tech support, and perhaps see if they will give me a new unit.

Signal strength is good (>80 on all channels). I've power cycled the unit 26 times.

I decided to contact Dish to resolve the problem. Called the number in the manual. Was transferred to tech support. Explained the problems. Almost immediately they decided to send me a NEW unit. (I'm guessing the problem database didn't have this issue entered yet.) NO questions ask.

But their computers wouldn't allow them to set up the return so I'm still in the process of completing the return. The only down side so far is that I'll have to return the unit before they will ship a new one. I'll get more details about the process later today.

Do they have units in stock to ship you? I would hate to wait for these units to become available again. I rather have them charge my cc and ship me another unit and credit my cc when it's return.

My unit has not rebooted in 3 days. The cycle count is at 14.

3. no TVGOS data, even though my market (SF Bay Area) has it available
...
I'll call tech support, and perhaps see if they will give me a new unit.
I assume that your unit brings in CBS 5.1 well, which is where digital TVGOS is coming from. (Some of us have verified this with Sony DVRs, with which one can specifically check this...)

Not having a Pal DVR (yet), I'm wondering if they have any sign of diagnostic menus with which you can check such things, or even "force" assignment of a TVGOS "host" station, as with the Sony.

I scanned the Pal manual some time ago, and didn't notice any evidence of things like that, but maybe somebody at SOME technical support (Dish, Echostar, or Macrovision/TVGuide) could identify how to do this - although, given three different Corporations involved, there is a lot of potential for passing the buck.

just a thought...

note:
The manual like all manuals, is a work in progress. Please use it as a guide, but not the be all, end all of information.

I assume that your unit brings in CBS 5.1 well, which is where digital TVGOS is coming from...

Not having a Pal DVR (yet), I'm wondering if they have any sign of diagnostic menus with which you can check such things, or even "force" assignment of a TVGOS "host" station, as with the Sony.

Yes, it brings in 5.1 KPIX very well, but for some reason doesn't grab the TVGOS data.

I haven't discovered any way of "forcing" the TVGOS assignment.

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones: getting TVGOS data, no reboots, only one blank screen lockup (and that's when two shows were recording and I hit "Watch Live TV"). This box hits the sweet spot for me -- just the price and performance I was hoping for, assuming mine doesn't develop bugs such as others have reported.

But that makes me wonder: Why this parentage for the first (I hope?) mass-market HDTV recorder? Why didn't this outcome happen a lot sooner, on 3/1/2007 when all video devices had to incorporate an ATSC tuner? At that time, there were good hard-drive based DVD recorders with analog tuners. Seemingly, it would have been simple to drop in and integrate an ATSC tuner. The resulting box would record and play back HDTV from the hard drive, output HDTV signals live -- and record to the DVD drive in 480i.

Instead, the first mass-market HDTV recorder comes as a modified satellite box rather than a modified 2007-era DVD recorder. Curious to me.

Page 32 of the manual clearly states that the DTVPal DVR will automatically find and install updates via ethernet while in standby mode, by default. Do you see another option anywhere to disable automatic updates?
....

OK. After thinking about this for awhile, I am afraid I will need to respectfully disagree with you on the MENU>SETUP>UPDATES option being used to control the box for updating the software and not for updating the (PSIP) guide data. Here is my thinking:

A.) I see the page of the manual you reference as describing a simple programming IF>THEN argument that is set to run on an hourly basis;
IF Ethernet connection present = no > THEN Stop.
IF Ethernet connection present = yes > THEN wait for standby mode.
IF standby mode occurs > THEN go to xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx download new updates and install, reboot.
And do not see where that would require any user settings at all (or even be permitted by Dish since people say they push the satellite DVR updates and do not give the user an option to not take them).
B.) Yes, the Help information for the option COULD be wrong, but I do not think it is. It would be nice if Dish would update the website to answer these questions and all the others the manual tells you to check the site for more help with…it does that several times.

I suppose if someone out there who has not yet updated the software on his or her box wanted to test this it may answer the question. They would need to make sure the inactivity standby option is enabled (MENU>PREFERENCES>INACTIVITY STANDBY), the update options is disabled (MENU>SETUP>UPDATES), that the box has acquired an IP address from the router on their network (MENU>SETUP>BROADBAND>NETWORK SETUP and you may need to use the RESET button to connect), and, of course, leave their DVR and network on overnight.

Or, are you saying you have already done this? \/

The behavior of the box supports this. If the update option is disabled, the box does not automatically download the latest update while in standby, yet it continues to download guide updates from TVGOS.


Now, why I think this setting is for forcing a download of the PSIP guide data:
It obviously has nothing to do with the TVGOS guide download. In fact I don’t believe we need to do anything to get the TVGOS guide; zip code settings do not seem to matter, as people are reporting they get the TVGOS guide no matter what. I believe that if the data is in your area you will get it no matter what you change in the software settings. I do think it may have something to do with some of the lockups/reboots since some have reported that disabling it has fixed the problem for them.
And since I have chosen to respectfully disagree with you on this point, the only thing this option could be for is to force a PSIP guide download.
Just my opinion.

Are you sure you're getting TVGOS with all zeroes in your zip, or has it defaulted back to PSIP ?

TVGOS - the RED TV Guide OnScreen logo appears on the EPG. If it's not there, you're looking at PSIP guide data.

I'm still getting 7 days of program data, with the RED TV Guide logo displayed. (To be clear, I entered my actual zip code when prompted during the setup wizard mode. I entered all zeros subsequent to my lockup/reboot episodes using the menu-accessed zip code screen in addition to deactivating updates. Knowing absolutely nothing about programming, I can't help but wonder if the system logic somehow "remembers" my setup wizard zip code input.)

I'm still getting 7 days of program data, with the RED TV Guide logo displayed. (To be clear, I entered my actual zip code when prompted during the setup wizard mode. I entered all zeros subsequent to my lockup/reboot episodes using the menu-accessed zip code screen in addition to deactivating updates. Knowing absolutely nothing about programming, I can't help but wonder if the system logic somehow "remembers" my setup wizard zip code input.)

I believe the TVGOS is in the CBS data stream (at regular intervals throughout the day) and the DTVPal DVR sees it and utilizes it automatically.
If anyone has a new TVGOS enabled device other than the Pal DVR, does the setup for it require you to input your zip code? With analog devices you did but wasn't that so the device would know where to look for the data? Maybe it is different for digital TVGOS...I sure don't know.

note:
The manual like all manuals, is a work in progress. Please use it as a guide, but not the be all, end all of information.

Note taken but with Dish we know there is NO be all, end all for ANY information from them...unless you are a subscriber maybe.

And since I have chosen to respectfully disagree with you on this point, the only thing this option could be for is to force a PSIP guide download.

No matter what option you select under Update, you still get PSIP and/or TVGOS data if available. Do you see something different?

I started using my DTVPal three days ago and have noticed the following problems:

1. random reboots several times a day
2. occasional lockup, with black screen, recoverable only by unplugging
3. no TVGOS data, even though my market (SF Bay Area) has it available
4. Ethernet connection on DTVPal was dead yesterday (LAN connections would not "light"), but for whatever reason, today it works

I've read all the posts in this thread and realize that these problems have already been noted by others (with possible exception of Ethernet problem). I'm chiming in to help people see that there are multiple people having these problems.

I'll call tech support, and perhaps see if they will give me a new unit.If you use component + disable software updates + remove (zero) your zip code in setup, do you still get the random reboots?

A little more data after a day of heavy use. The unit was on for most of yesterday, intermittently recording while I watched live.:

No lockups or restarts since I changed my update settings. Last time I had a restart was on Sunday, during the late NFL game, when I had multiple. I changed my settings that night, and have been error free since the change.

My settings are as follows

1) F202 firmware.
2) Actual zip code
3) Inactivity Standby :enabled after 4 hours
4) Updates : Disabled

After my series of lockups, I restored the unit to factory defaults (menu>setup>system setup>factory defaults), redid the initial install/setup using the options listed above, and reset the counters to zero (menu>setup>system setup>diagnostics>counters>reset). Since then, zero lockups or restarts, and my No of Power Cycles is 0.

Hope this helps those battling the resets/lockups.

No matter what option you select under Update, you still get PSIP and/or TVGOS data if available. Do you see something different?

?? I didn't say it would stop you from getting PSIP guide data, I said it would stop the machine from downloading it at that time. The PSIP is in the stream for the channels and if you do not get the TVGOS data your box will use the PSIP instead...the option is just to stop it from downloading it at a predetermined time.
I am saying it has nothing to do with getting software updates and I outlined a test for this if someone that has not updated to F202 wants to try it.

A little more data after a day of heavy use. The unit was on for most of yesterday, intermittently recording while I watched live.:

No lockups or restarts since I changed my update settings. Last time I had a restart was on Sunday, during the late NFL game, when I had multiple. I changed my settings that night, and have been error free since the change.

My settings are as follows

1) F202 firmware.
2) Actual zip code
3) Inactivity Standby :enabled after 4 hours
4) Updates : Disabled

After my series of lockups, I restored the unit to factory defaults (menu>setup>system setup>factory defaults), redid the initial install/setup using the options listed above, and reset the counters to zero (menu>setup>system setup>diagnostics>counters>reset). Since then, zero lockups or restarts, and my No of Power Cycles is 0.

Hope this helps those battling the resets/lockups.

If others that are having the reboots/lockups would try this we might just have an answer.
As I said, I have had the update option on mine disabled since day one and have had no reboots at all, except for the software update reboot.

If anyone has a new TVGOS enabled device other than the Pal DVR, does the setup for it require you to input your zip code?

Yes my new Sony TV w/digital TVGOS required me to put in my zip code, but it still listed many stations that I can't get OTA (200 miles away) but that's a different story:D I just removed them from the list.
Both my digital and analog TVGOS comes from my local CBS channel's digital and analog broadcasts. I don't have a Pal DVR yet.

Yes my new Sony TV w/digital TVGOS required me to put in my zip code, but it still listed many stations that I can't get OTA (200 miles away) but that's a different story:D I just removed them from the list.
Both my digital and analog TVGOS comes from my local CBS channel's digital and analog broadcasts. I don't have a Pal DVR yet.

Thanks for the answer....now :D I wonder if you would still get the TVGOS if you put all zeros in there???

These questions are all answered in the FAQ in the first post.

To summarize, you can only update via ethernet at this time. In the future, you will be able to download the update to a USB flashdrive with your computer, and then connect that flashdrive to your DTVPal DVR to perform the update.

Ethernet is the port that looks like a large telephone jack. You can see a picture at the bottom of the first post. This would connect to a port on your ethernet router (assuming you have one). If you are one of the few without a router, then you could connect directly to the ethernet port on your cable modem. Once you are connected via ethernet, you would select Setup -> Broadband -> Software Update from the DTVPal DVR's menu.

The update addresses some known issues. More specific information is not available.


Thank-you for responding, but I need more details to understand (I said I would sound dumb on this issue). I had read the initial post on pg 1 and even with the additional info above, I still don't know:

- If I have to hook my DVR up to my pc, does it also need to be hooked up to my TV? I don’t have the ability to do both.

- If I only need to be hooked into my pc, does the DVR need to be plugged in to AC and turned on? I assume "yes".

- When plugged into the ethernet jack and into AC, will I then be able to see DVR instructions on my monitor, as though it were my TV? Will I be able to operate the DVR with my remote and see the results on my pc monitor?

- I assume that I need to turn my pc on? What software would I have open on my pc? A browser window?

- Please confirm, that if I somehow get to the update screen (that I can access using my TV/DVR setup) while hooked up to the ethernet connection, then the DVR will automatically go out and seek out the updates? If I have to respond to anything to ok the download, I would do so either with my DVR remote, or my pc?

Thanks to anyone who can provide answers to the above.

Thanks for the answer....now :D I wonder if you would still get the TVGOS if you put all zeros in there???

I would happy to test it out for you but there's a bug either in TVGOS or the way my Sony TV handles the TVGOS. The bug involves several of the digital stations that show up on my channel list but are several hundred miles away. If I remove them on my channel list it not only removes the unwanted channels but also my local channels with the same channel number that I want.:confused:
I've found no way to remove those unwanted digital channels without also removing my local stations:mad: Sony was clueless on helping me and only said to watch for firmware updates:rolleyes:
My workaround is to manually put the stations I can't get(but have a local station with the same number) at the bottom of my channel list. At least that way I don't have to look at them very often. It takes me a long time to do this and usually takes several attempts:( otherwise I'd be glad to try it out.
The only reason I posted this OT talk is if someone had similar problems with the Pal DVR. It's kind of hokey but works. TVGOS is nice when it works but does occasionally have issues(both digital and analog with my older DVDR).

Thanks for the answer....now :D I wonder if you would still get the TVGOS if you put all zeros in there???

That's a good question. However...

I know for me, when I used my actual zip code (within a different DMA, i.e. Harrisburg PA, then the CBS station that I receive, i.e. Baltimore MD, that's suppose to have TVGOS) I did not get the red TVGuide logo.

When I used the alternate zip code from the manual for Baltimore (i.e. 00022), I got the red TVGuide logo, but not 7 days worth, actually it was less than 24 hours, so it may have still been PSIP data.

When I used an actual Baltimore zip code (i.e. 21207), I got 7 days worth of data for all Baltimore channels and even some of the Harrisburg channels, but not all of them.

Is anybody getting 7 days of data with the zip code set to all zeros?
If yes, did you enter a zip code during the setup wizard only the reset to all zeros later?
(If yes, perhaps it still remembers the initial zip code entered?)
In other words, is any body getting 7 days of data that never entered a zip code?

I emailed engineer at my local CBS station, WSBT South Bend, IN and received reply that they have not been contacted to transmit TVGOS data. Mcrovision does not respond to my emails. Does anyone know who to contact to get my CBS station on board? PSIP data is okay but no comparison to TVGOS which I have had on my TV for over 3 years.

+1 ^^^^^^^^

Is there anyone special we can contact to try and get the digital TVGOS in areas that do not have it now?

+1 ^^^^^^^^

Is there anyone special we can contact to try and get the digital TVGOS in areas that do not have it now?
The station engineer at your local CBS affiliate.

I guess you call it fragmenting.
When skipping forward through paused/buffered content the picture fragments ever so often for just a second and then returns to normal.
Anybody else?

I would happy to test it out for you but there's a bug either in TVGOS or the way my Sony TV handles the TVGOS. The bug involves several of the digital stations that show up on my channel list but are several hundred miles away. If I remove them on my channel list it not only removes the unwanted channels but also my local channels with the same channel number that I want.:confused:
I've found no way to remove those unwanted digital channels without also removing my local stations:mad: Sony was clueless on helping me and only said to watch for firmware updates:rolleyes:
My workaround is to manually put the stations I can't get(but have a local station with the same number) at the bottom of my channel list. At least that way I don't have to look at them very often. It takes me a long time to do this and usually takes several attempts:( otherwise I'd be glad to try it out.
The only reason I posted this OT talk is if someone had similar problems with the Pal DVR. It's kind of hokey but works. TVGOS is nice when it works but does occasionally have issues(both digital and analog with my older DVDR).

That's OK. I was actually just wondering out loud if the non-Pal DVR device would still get the TVGOS data the way the Pal DVR seems to (according to some posts).

That's a good question. However...
I know for me, when I used my actual zip code (within a different DMA, i.e. Harrisburg PA, then the CBS station that I receive, i.e. Baltimore MD, that's suppose to have TVGOS) I did not get the red TVGuide logo.

When I used the alternate zip code from the manual for Baltimore (i.e. 00022), I got the red TVGuide logo, but not 7 days worth, actually it was less than 24 hours, so it may have still been PSIP data.

When I used an actual Baltimore zip code (i.e. 21207), I got 7 days worth of data for all Baltimore channels and even some of the Harrisburg channels, but not all of them.
Is anybody getting 7 days of data with the zip code set to all zeros?
If yes, did you enter a zip code during the setup wizard only the reset to all zeros later?
(If yes, perhaps it still remembers the initial zip code entered?)
In other words, is any body getting 7 days of data that never entered a zip code?

I understand that to be the case for you, maybe some others as well, but I was talking about all zeros for the zip in other digital TVGOS enabled devices.

I guess you call it fragmenting.
When skipping forward through paused/buffered content the picture fragments ever so often for just a second and then returns to normal.
Anybody else?

Yes, I recorded the New Years Day outdoor NHL game and when I would skip forward I was getting the fragment breakups. I did not have the programming paused during this time either.

Wow, what a wait! I've been anxiously following this puppy since January of last year. I’ve used it a few times now and can say I’m impressed! I haven’t had any reboot problems and think PQ is excellent. My only disappointment is no TVGOS in our area. I’m 13 miles south of Ft. Wayne, IN. I called our CBS station, but the engineer acted like he wasn’t even familiar with CBS carrying digital TVGOS. He doesn’t know of any future plans to carry it and that they currently send out three days of PSIP data. Problem is, the other local stations only send 8 hours of info.

Anybody else in this area have TVGOS working?

My Setup:
42” Panasonic 1080p plasma
HDMI connection
No firmware update
I’ve tried both actual and recommended zipcodes
Updates are still enabled

I can't believe the people who are balking at $270 for this sucker. I think its a STEAL!

Yes my new Sony TV w/digital TVGOS required me to put in my zip code, but it still listed many stations that I can't get OTA (200 miles away) but that's a different story:D I just removed them from the list.
Both my digital and analog TVGOS comes from my local CBS channel's digital and analog broadcasts. I don't have a Pal DVR yet.

My experience with TVGOS is that you get listings for a lot of stations (even cable) that are in your market area that you can't receive which makes me wonder if they have changed how it works or the DVR only displays data for stations you can view. I say this because even though I have the TV Guide logo the info displayed for each channel is the same as the PSIP data that my TV gets. The only difference is that for some channels the DVR displays 7 days of data and the TV only shows about one day. For other stations the guide only gives a day or two of data. PSIP can go out (I think) up to 16 days if the station wants to send it so just the number of days does not tell whether it is PSIP or TVGOS data.:confused:

Thanks to anyone who can provide answers to the above.

Since the version that comes in the box seems to work as well as the upgrade there does not seem to be a burning need to do the update but!

NOTE THE WARNING ON THE TOP OF THE DVR. BEFORE MOVING THE BOX PLACE IT IN STANDBY, UNPLUG IT AND LET SIT FOR ABOUT 1 MINUTE TO LET THE DISK COME TO A COMPLETE STOP AND PARK THE HEADS.

You need to make three connections; 1) power 2) connect the DVR to the TV and 3) connect a cable from the ethernet port on the back of the DVR to a port on your internet router. Follow the instructions in the manual (page 32)to force an update.

If you can't do that, connect the DVR to your internet router and plug in the power. If the green light is on, press the power button on the remote to turn if off. Let the DVR set for 3-4 hours and the software should automatically download and install. You can verify success by connecting to the TV and pressing SYS INFO. The firmware version should be shown.

Or, you can simply wait for an update to be posted on their website, then download, transfer to USB flash drive and install from that.
I see no reason to be in a hurry to install new fw, especially when there is no info on what, if any issues it's supposed to address.

Respond to this post to indicate your wish list for future firmware updates. I'll start with a few items that I have thought of. Hopefully, someone from Dish Network follows this forum! :D

1) Resolve random lock up/freeze/reboot issue.
2) Enable name based recording.
3) Enable maximum number of events for a single timer (automatically delete older events exceeding the maximum specified by user).

Please add in your suggestions!


The DTVPal DVR is a nice box - I am very happy with it. No major issues so far for me. Post #1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15369795#post15369795) (bfdtv) has the main wish list - #1 and #2 are there, unclear on #3, but here are some more that I have seen posted previously that would be nice for a future firmware update:

4) Enable 1TB internal drive upgrading (even if not official)
5) Make it easier to record events using both timers (if two half hour back-to-back shows are scheduled to be recorded on one channel, allow a user to record a one hour show on a different channel during the same time slot without having to first delete the last half hour one and re-add it after the hour one on the other channel is entered)
6) If recording a show, allow user to flip channels and the flip back to the original channel and rewind a bit of the recording without having to press DVR-DVR-Play first
7) If two recordings are taking place, change the function of Channel up and down to switch just between the two rather than warning the user the action will cause one recording to stop or having the user have to manually specify the other channel
8) If watching a show and then pressing the record button, start the recording from the beginning of the buffer possibly up to the show start time, rather than from the point the user pushes the record button.

If you use component + disable software updates + remove (zero) your zip code in setup, do you still get the random reboots?
Earlier today I had reported the following problems:

1. random reboots
2. occasional black screen lockup
3. no TVGOS
4. ethernet connection dead

Update:

Ethernet problem turned out to be a bad cable. Once I confirmed ethernet working, I downloaded F202 successfully. Used the DTVPal for a short time, left, and came back after 6 hours or so. Then the TV Guide emblem appeared.

Interesting thing to note at this point: Although the TV Guide emblem appeared, and I had seven day schedule info for quite a few channels, all the PBS channels are stubbornly refusing to show more than one day info. Almost as if the PBS channels are not including their info with TV Guide.

Anyway, now the bad news: Just as others have reported no improvement in the random reboot and lockup problems after downloading F202, I have also continued to see random reboots and one black-screen lockup (within less than 2 hours of usage).

Regarding the suggestion above, I already am using composite outputs, and just a few minutes ago I disabled software update attempts and also set ZIP to 00000. Within less than 10 minutes I got a black-screen lockup, which required me to pull the plug to recover. So the scenario suggested above, at least for me, does not solve the problem.

By the way, after the thing reboots, it reloads all the Guide info, apparently losing all the previous stuff in the process. So now I'm back to no TV Guide emblem and no info beyond 24 hours.

Perhaps the only reason I wasn't seeing the TV Guide emblem before was because the thing rebooted so often it never had enough time to get the TV Guide data.

By the way, in all of the above, I don't have any reason to believe that changing to F202 did anything whatsoever to fix bugs or create new ones.

Looks like it's time to call tech suppport and ask for a replacement DTVPal.

I wonder if shipping these in their retail box (and not double boxed) has anything to do with the failures. (Maybe it was tossed / dropped, etc one too many times).

I thought I was one of the luck ones as I have not seen any resets until now. I just got two resets in the space of 30 minutes.

My diagnostic counters show 18 power cycles and no reset history.
I think most of the power cycles are due to playing with the TVGOS translation feature but since each reboot increments the power cycle counter there may have been some reboots I did not notice (kind of hard to not notice one however).

I was recording one program while watching another. Recording and viewing resumed after the interruption.

Firmware F202.
No internet connection.
Update set for 3AM.

Anybody out there in the NYC metro area? I just checked and only have full data through Saturday or so. Sunday and beyond the only listings I get are for WCBS, WNYW, WWOR, and WPIX. I picked 00001 as the DMA. Maybe I should use a Manhattan zip?

Maybe I should use a Manhattan zip?
yes

Anybody out there in the NYC metro area? I just checked and only have full data through Saturday or so. Sunday and beyond the only listings I get are for WCBS, WNYW, WWOR, and WPIX. I picked 00001 as the DMA. Maybe I should use a Manhattan zip?


Suggest you read post #865 from RustyCruiser and if you follow that same pattern, using a Manhattan zip, please post your experiences.

And, based on what I've been reading, if you're getting true TV Guide on Screen (TVGOS) data, then a red TV Guide logo should appear in the upper right part of the guide screen. But then even TV Guide data may exist for the major networks, not necessarily all PBS networks whose data may still only be supplied via PSIP.

Pardon the lengthy post, I know I tend to be verbose and I also wanted to let folks know a bit about the type of user I am to be able to judge the applicability of my comments.

I am not an A/V phile. I upgraded to a 32" Panasonic 1080p HD LCD a little over a year ago when the old analog TV died. It fit my budget (<$700) and our TV cabinet (<34" wide). I dropped cable (bare-bones "broadcast" service) back in September to save the $20/month that we were paying for effectively 2 stations that we couldn't get OTA. (I'm lucky in that all the local digital broadcasts co-located to the same mountain top, which is 7 miles LOS from my home.) After trying to extend the life of our VCR with the DTVPal CECB, our VCR (a '96 Sharp) started giving poor quality recordings, and occasionally even struggled with playback of some pre-recorded tapes. I asked an acquaintance (who is an A/V phile) for advice on what to get for a replacement. He highly recommended a DVD-R with an HDD, but warned me that the DVD-Rs wouldn't record in HD. I found out about this device via the CNET reviews and started waiting, as I really didn't want anything with a monthly fee (i.e. TIVO) and the computer based alternatives that offered some minimal appeal looked like they would end up pushing $1000.

The programming guide wasn't really a must have for me. We're in a small market with ~11 broadcasts with all the subchannels. At best, one might get 2-3 more. If you lived just a little further north, maybe 20 total once Canada goes digital, so not too many to choose from. We also don't get TVGOS service, and given we have a independent, locally owned, CBS station, I'm not holding my breath (especially in this economy).

I was a little disappointed when I found out that that USB port wouldn't support external drive expansion, but 30 hours of HD was still almost 3X what we were recording on 2 VHS tapes we kept recycling, so I don't think I'll be too worried about total recording time. If this ended up with equivalent functionality to my old VCR I probably would have still been satisfied just for the HD capability.

I've now had my DTVPal-DVR plugged in for about 5 days and really only tried to do much with it over the past 2 days. So far I am very happy with it. There are a couple of issues I've run into, but nothing that would make me hesitant about recommending it to others based on my experience (although I would tell them to come to this forum to decide for themselves.)

I didn't think it would be such a big deal, but the time shifting features are great. I love the fact that I am able to watch a college bowl game in about 40 minutes. Not only does the 30 second skip button fit commercials well, but also a 35 second play clock. I suspect for many prospective buyers, this really is only meeting expectations, but never having used a DVR before, I thought it was just going to be a "nice to have." Now that I've experienced it, I don't know that I'll ever want to go back.

The dual tuner option is also really great. We used to record on 2 different VCRs one night of the week. I love having the ability to record 2 programs at once (not to mention the ability to watch a program that is only partially recorded).

While I'm sure I'm not the most demanding of viewers, I do think the picture quality is excellent and it seems to hold signals better than the digital tuner in my Panasonic, which I know shouldn't be an issue given how close I am to the transmitters, but I do have the antenna feed (Winegard HD-1080, no pre-amp) split 1:2 to feed living room and basement, then again, 1:3 in the cabinet to feed the TV, Pal, and radio. (The DTVPal CECB also held a better signal, so I wasn't surprised with this result.)

I did upgrade the software on day one, then unplugged the ethernet as I don't have access in the living room. I don't regularly have the unit on, unless we are watching a recorded program (I use the tuner in the TV). I have not experienced any of the reboot issues mentioned by other owners. So far it's done what it was supposed to do.

I did run into a couple of minor issues that I feel could be improved upon, but these seem somewhat minor to me, and I'm hoping one will be resolved with some help from our local station engineers:

1) I'd like to see the ability to select which show to record if a conflict is created.
e.g. I had two repeating (weekly) recordings set up at the same time for different stations and wanted to setup a one time event for the same time (a 3rd recording). I would have liked to be able to tell the Pal to skip one of the weekly recordings for that one day. Instead I had to delete it, then set it back up after the one time recording was completed (anyone have a better solution?)


2) Create a default of a date/time stamp for each recording in case TVGOS is not available and PSIP information is incomplete/incorrect.
see my post #847 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15437987#post15437987)

My opinion on the DTVPal DVR: a great value at ~$275 (w/S&H + tax), for anyone who gets their programming over the air, and even more so for anyone thinking they might buy a DVD-R, or even a full priced converter box to extend the life a VCR or DVD-R.

I give it a 9 out of 10 based on my experience.

One other small thumbs up on the Pal, so far it has the only "included" universal remote I've ever found that operates any function on my Sony DAV-700, although even then only on/off and volume.

I would happy to test it out for you but there's a bug either in TVGOS or the way my Sony TV handles the TVGOS. The bug involves several of the digital stations that show up on my channel list but are several hundred miles away. If I remove them on my channel list it not only removes the unwanted channels but also my local channels with the same channel number that I want.:confused:
I've found no way to remove those unwanted digital channels without also removing my local stations:mad: Sony was clueless on helping me and only said to watch for firmware updates:rolleyes:Have you tried changing the channel numbers on those unwanted stations first before turning them off?

(Just a thought. Don't even know if you can do that on the digital TVGOS like you could on the analog one.)

Has anyone confirmed the maximum number of timers you can have?

4) Enable 1TB internal drive upgrading (even if not official)
5) Make it easier to record events using both timers (if two half hour back-to-back shows are scheduled to be recorded on one channel, allow a user to record a one hour show on a different channel during the same time slot without having to first delete the last half hour one and re-add it after the hour one on the other channel is entered)
6) If recording a show, allow user to flip channels and the flip back to the original channel and rewind a bit of the recording without having to press DVR-DVR-Play first
7) If two recordings are taking place, change the function of Channel up and down to switch just between the two rather than warning the user the action will cause one recording to stop or having the user have to manually specify the other channel
8) If watching a show and then pressing the record button, start the recording from the beginning of the buffer possibly up to the show start time, rather than from the point the user pushes the record button.I added these to the first post, save for #7. The recall button doesn't switch between the two channels that are recording?

8) If watching a show and then pressing the record button, start the recording from the beginning of the buffer possibly up to the show start time, rather than from the point the user pushes the record button.Note the bolded portion isn't possible with a timer-based DVR. A timer-based DVR can't tell when the program actually started.

I suggested a compromise for a timer-based DVR, which would record the buffer from the most recent 30 minute block.

(...) The recall button doesn't switch between the two channels that are recording?
It does for me, but I have to choose first one, then the other from the guide. Then it does.

Or, you can simply wait for an update to be posted on their website, then download, transfer to USB flash drive and install from that.
I see no reason to be in a hurry to install new fw, especially when there is no info on what, if any issues it's supposed to address.

Amen to that ! !

Count me as one who will wait.

I have been waiting for this thing for a year now to come out and now that it is out and everybody is having reboot problems, etc. - I have decided to sit tight right now and hold off on purchasing one for a month or two to see if the "bugs" get fixed........... AND IT IS KILLING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi out there. I have the Sony DHG-HDD500. This has worked great for me the last coupel of years. My only regret is NOT having two tuners in it. I hate it when I want to record a show and cannot watch another at the same time. It's either one or the other. I only have OTA Green Bay,WI stations here. The TVGuide works great. Is this new DTVPal really that great for watching a show and recording another at the sametime ? Is the picture quality any better than my Sony? I'm running HDMI from Sony to Mits projector to my 92" Firehawk screen. or should I keep what i have...

yes


And is that what you used in Bezerkley?? :)

Suggest you read post #865 from RustyCruiser and if you follow that same pattern, using a Manhattan zip, please post your experiences.

And, based on what I've been reading, if you're getting true TV Guide on Screen (TVGOS) data, then a red TV Guide logo should appear in the upper right part of the guide screen. But then even TV Guide data may exist for the major networks, not necessarily all PBS networks whose data may still only be supplied via PSIP.

7 day data for PBS stations is apparently dependent on area, because for my area both the in market and out of market PBS stations contain a 7 days of data. Also the out of market CBS (that does not TVGOS data), Fox and CW stations have 7 days of data. I thought the out of market ABC did, but this morning it does not (can't currently receive this station, but it is in the guide). However, the out of market NBC station does not along with an IND station.

Hi out there. I have the Sony DHG-HDD500. This has worked great for me the last coupel of years. My only regret is NOT having two tuners in it. I hate it when I want to record a show and cannot watch another at the same time. It's either one or the other. I only have OTA Green Bay,WI stations here. The TVGuide works great. Is this new DTVPal really that great for watching a show and recording another at the sametime ? Is the picture quality any better than my Sony? I'm running HDMI from Sony to Mits projector to my 92" Firehawk screen. or should I keep what i have...

The picture quality is the same (I have an DHG-HDD250). You can record one show and watch another without problems (mine is hooked to a projector also). The UI is several steps down from the Sony and the recording listings doesn't organize as well. You also don't see the the title of the shows. (It will just show the show name and the description and not the short title of the episode).

Since these are timer based recordings, the machine will record a bunch of junk when shows are substituted. For example, I record 3 shows on CBS on Monday (7-8:30). This Monday there are a couple of re-runs and the machine got confused and is going to record from 7-9 on CBS (why it extended to 9PM, I don't know).

Hi out there. I have the Sony DHG-HDD500. This has worked great for me the last coupel of years. My only regret is NOT having two tuners in it. I hate it when I want to record a show and cannot watch another at the same time. It's either one or the other. I only have OTA Green Bay,WI stations here. The TVGuide works great. Is this new DTVPal really that great for watching a show and recording another at the sametime ? Is the picture quality any better than my Sony? I'm running HDMI from Sony to Mits projector to my 92" Firehawk screen. or should I keep what i have...

I'd say the picture is as good, also the reception is better. I can get all my stations from the Empire State Bldg AND a PBS station that is over 90 degress AWAY from the ESB. The fast scan on the Sony though has not been matched by ANYONE which includes DVD players, HD players, DVD recorders.....I don't know why this can't be done with buffers and RAM storage et al. I think it's just laziness/cheapness.

I guess you call it fragmenting.
When skipping forward through paused/buffered content the picture fragments ever so often for just a second and then returns to normal.
Anybody else?

yeah, mine also. Stupid.....my Sony DVR at ANY speed gives smooth motion. What do they know that no one else can do? Nuthin. The other guys are just lazy or cheap

Hi out there. I have the Sony DHG-HDD500. This has worked great for me the last coupel of years. My only regret is NOT having two tuners in it. I hate it when I want to record a show and cannot watch another at the same time. It's either one or the other. I only have OTA Green Bay,WI stations here. The TVGuide works great. Is this new DTVPal really that great for watching a show and recording another at the sametime ? Is the picture quality any better than my Sony? I'm running HDMI from Sony to Mits projector to my 92" Firehawk screen. or should I keep what i have...
Hi! I am from Appleton and pull stations from Green Bay. My reception (with an antenna in the rafters of my garage) is great. It is even better with the DTVPal DVR than it was with analog, and is better than the converter box I tried that did a pretty good job.

The ability to program 2 shows simultaneously, and watch something else from the pre-recorded list is wonderful. (I used to use multiple VCRs.) I do miss the portability of VCR tapes, and the unlimited storage capacity provided by being able to save the tapes, but that doesn't appear to be a practical option anymore. And the ability to start watching a show from the beginning after it has started is great.

Note the bolded portion isn't possible with a timer-based DVR. A timer-based DVR can't tell when the program actually started.

I suggested a compromise for a timer-based DVR, which would record the buffer from the most recent 30 minute block.

Both of my Dish SD receivers also start recording from the moment that you hit the REC. However, rewinding back to the beginning of the show (assuming it's within the 60 minute buffer and the channel was not been changed), and then hitting REC, will record from that point. My 508 did this even before when it only had time-based recording identical to the current DTVPal DVR software (name-based recording has been a recent software upgrade for the 508).

I have read that the Dish ViP (i.e. HD) receivers, are smart enough to go back and put the beginning of the show in the recording without having to rewind first (but I don't have first hand experience of this).

I tried this same procedure with the DTVPal DVR (rewinding first), and while it looked like if was doing it correctly, it only started recording from the point the REC was hit, not at the rewind point. I think this is just a bug in the current DTVPal DVR software that hopefully they will fix.

yeah, mine also. Stupid.....my Sony DVR at ANY speed gives smooth motion. What do they know that no one else can do? Nuthin. The other guys are just lazy or cheap

Dish programmers have a long history of not getting it right. It does not surprise my that it is not right on the DTVPal DVR either. As long time Dish DVR user, I'm used to the inconsistent forward/backward scanning and 30 second skip and 10 second skip back.

The following questions were asked earlier:

1. Can you skip ahead in the Program Guide?

The answer is "yes". You can skip ahead a full day by using the yellow(?) skip button that you use to jump over commercials.

2. How do you know how much hard drive space you have left?

Look at your "My Recordings" list. Above the list, on the left side, you will see the hours left if everything recorded was in high def. On the left side you will see how many hours you have left if everything new records in standard def.

When you delete a show, you will see time added.

I am disappointed that you cannot choose to record in SD instead of HD since HD takes up so much space. Instead, shows are recorded in whatever format they are broadcast in. I understand now why others are already talking about upgrading the size of the hard drive since you can only save 30 hours of programming that was recorded in high def, and it seems like most of what I am recording is broadcast in high def. I tend to record movies that I may save for a while before viewing and deleting. Still, this DVR is the best option I have seen for after the switch to fully digital broadcasting.

3. What happens when the harddrive is full?

According to the manual, the oldest recorded show will automatically be deleted to make room for new shows. The only way to make sure a show is saved is to "Protect" it, which is an option (I believe) in "My Recordings".

Some original and some an attempt to capture what others have said.
Feature Rationale
Downloads and maintenance should be run in background or while unit is in standby. Maintenance activities and program or guide update should not interfere with viewing. Since the manual states this is how firmware updates are scheduled, this may be the way it all works now but with the confusion about program downloads and reboots it should be made explicit that this is the way all such events are scheduled. This approach is preferred over specifying a specific time for updates/maintenance.

If both tuners are busy display a message similar to: “All tuners are allocated to recording. Select DVR to view a recording or select Pass-through or an alternate signal path to view TV” instead of a blank screen. More friendly than just letting the user guess why the screen just went blank.

Add a repeat indicator to the guide. Several people have asked for this.

Add option to only record new episodes to the event timer. Again several people have asked for this since it saves disk space.

Option to play back recordings as a list. When a program is selected for playback subsequent recordings in the list are played back in order instead of having to select each one in turn and pressing play. Friendlier

Option to specify precedence for PSIP and TVGuide data. Today PSIP data is not held in high regard because the stations are not taking its maintenance as an important task so TV Guide data is preferred. TV Guide data is however not very timely and I can foresee a day when PSIP will be maintained and this will give us a valuable capability to have last minute changes in the schedule reflected in the program guide. For example if a Sunday football game runs over as they often do this can be reflected in the guide which will alert viewers that a subsequent program will be delayed or additional recording time needs to be allocated for the game if you want to view the winning touchdown later. This also provides alerts to last minute schedule changes like peremptions and important events like a Presidential address.

Tie the above to the timer events either by just adjusting the channel/time slot that was changed or using the name based recording the has been suggested elsewhere. The utility is obvious.

I have read that the Dish ViP (i.e. HD) receivers, are smart enough to go back and put the beginning of the show in the recording without having to rewind first (but I don't have first hand experience of this).They do. That's the way most name-based DVRs (for cable and satellite) handle it.

Both of my Dish SD receivers also start recording from the moment that you hit the REC. However, rewinding back to the beginning of the show (assuming it's within the 60 minute buffer and the channel was not been changed), and then hitting REC, will record from that point. My 508 did this even before when it only had time-based recording identical to the current DTVPal DVR software (name-based recording has been a recent software upgrade for the 508).

I tried this same procedure with the DTVPal DVR (rewinding first), and while it looked like if was doing it correctly, it only started recording from the point the REC was hit, not at the rewind point. I think this is just a bug in the current DTVPal DVR software that hopefully they will fix.Good info, thanks. So this might be something we see on the DTVPal DVR with a future software update.

I have been very happy with my DVR and timed recordings. But last night, I had a show set to record. I had set it up several days ago. When I went to locate it in "My Recordings", it had a label of "Skipped".

Does anyone know what might have caused this?

Nothing else was set to record at the time, and I had my DVR off. But I did see the red record light came on at the appropriate time. And actually, it stayed on for over an hour longer than it had been set for. When I turned my DVR on, there were no messages, and nothing appeared to be recording. Nothing else was scheduled to record that night. After seeing that my scheduled program did not record, I turned the DVR back off.

But the red light continued to stay on. The only way I got the light to go out, was to turn the unit back on, set up two currently airing programs to record, then cancel the recording of both. Then when I turned my unit off, the red light finally went off.

I have not found any mention of the "skipped" label in the DVR manual.

Note the bolded portion isn't possible with a timer-based DVR. A timer-based DVR can't tell when the program actually started.

I suggested a compromise for a timer-based DVR, which would record the buffer from the most recent 30 minute block.

True but if he meant from the time the channel was selected that is possible.

Has anyone gotten a response from Tech@echostar.com yet on any topic?

This morning I received a response to the enhancement request I sent them via e-mail at Tech@echostar.com on January 1. It was a form response, of course, though it carried a tech support rep's name in the signature. But at least it's a (tiny) sign of life. Given the holiday-season timing, I think that's all a guy could hope for.

(And to me it feels better to have submitted my suggestion clearly and in writing than to have had another conversation like the pathetic and frustrating one I had yesterday with a rep on the tech support phone line. I'm pretty sure the nice fellow had NO IDEA what a DTVPal DVR was. I escalated my call to his manager, who insisted that all the reps had been trained ...and seemed generally uninterested in hearing from me.)

Pardon the lengthy post, I know I tend to be verbose and I also wanted to let folks know a bit about the type of user I am to be able to judge the applicability of my comments.....

I give it a 9 out of 10 based on my experience.
Thanks very much for your thoughtful post.
I'm glad to hear that you're pleased with it.
It sounds like this unit is something I might want to buy.

Add option to only record new episodes to the event timer. Again several people have asked for this since it saves disk space.That would be a form of name-based recording. Name-based recording encompasses any form of recording that uses the actual guide information to schedule recordings.

With the current software, all recording on the DTVPal DVR is done independently of the guide information. The guide information only has three purposes: (1) to let the user see what's on, (2) to simplify initial timer creation, and (3) to label timer recordings in My Recordings with whatever text happens to be on that time slot.

If Dish Network is to implement name-based recording when TVGOS is available, they've got to figure a way to preserve timer-based functionality when TVGOS isn't available, or is available, and then becomes unavailable. Without TVGOS, you don't have the original air dates and repeat flags necessary to differentiate new episodes from repeats. They've also got to deal with the situation where PSIP program information is temporarily unavailable (or generic) for some reason.

My experience with TVGOS is that you get listings for a lot of stations (even cable) that are in your market area that you can't receive which makes me wonder if they have changed how it works or the DVR only displays data for stations you can view. I say this because even though I have the TV Guide logo the info displayed for each channel is the same as the PSIP data that my TV gets. The only difference is that for some channels the DVR displays 7 days of data and the TV only shows about one day. For other stations the guide only gives a day or two of data. PSIP can go out (I think) up to 16 days if the station wants to send it so just the number of days does not tell whether it is PSIP or TVGOS data.:confused:

I have this exact situation right now with my local CBS affiliate KOVR in Sacramento. I see the TV Guide logo but I don't believe I'm seeing any TVGOS program information. I think it's only PSIP info. KOVR only transmits a few hours of PSIP info. If I turn on the DVR and it's tuned to a different station and I look at the guide, KOVR will show "No Information Available." As soon as I tune to KOVR, the information fills in. This indicates PSIP info. I'm in contact with the engineer and should have an answer on Monday.

...Does anyone know what might have caused this?

....

No.
Others have seen this also. If you select the skipped program and click on info it may say something like "skipped because of failure to start recording" but don't know what that really means or why it happens. My GUESS is that maybe there was a temporary signal loss and the recorder just didn't continue to look for a signal.

Earlier today I had reported the following problems:

1. random reboots
2. occasional black screen lockup
3. no TVGOS
4. ethernet connection dead

Update:<snip>

By the way, in all of the above, I don't have any reason to believe that changing to F202 did anything whatsoever to fix bugs or create new ones.

Looks like it's time to call tech suppport and ask for a replacement DTVPal.

What do you have the UPDATE option set to?

I thought I was one of the luck ones as I have not seen any resets until now. I just got two resets in the space of 30 minutes.

My diagnostic counters show 18 power cycles and no reset history.
I think most of the power cycles are due to playing with the TVGOS translation feature but since each reboot increments the power cycle counter there may have been some reboots I did not notice (kind of hard to not notice one however).

I was recording one program while watching another. Recording and viewing resumed after the interruption.

Firmware F202.
No internet connection.
Update set for 3AM.

Try setting the UPDATE option to DISABLE (MENU>SETUP>UPDATES) and see if it helps...some have reported that it does.

That would be a form of name-based recording. Name-based recording encompasses any form of recording that uses the actual guide information to schedule recordings.

....

Not necessarily. A more primative version is just to say that if that channel and time has a repeat program (not necessarily that same program, just a repeat of something) don't record it.

All I am saying is these are things some have asked for. Didn't say that some like using PSIP to make last minute schedule changes or name based programming are not major changes.

note:
The manual like all manuals, is a work in progress. Please use it as a guide, but not the be all, end all of information.

pa...any idea if/when Dish will fill out the support section of the Pal's website with more information like the manual suggests is already there? Even just a FAQ would be very helpful.

***Or would that be too much like assuming responsibility for giving CORRECT information?***

Does anyone know if the program guide can be a combination of PSIP info and TVGOS? Everything I've been reading here seems to assume one or the the other. There must be some people here who are getting TVGOS for their local stations and also receiving out of area stations not covered by TVGOS. What does the guide show for stations not covered by TVGOS? If it shows something, it must be PSIP program information.

I cannot test this myself right now because my local CBS affiliate is not transmitting TVGOS even though the logo appears.

Dish programmers have a long history of not getting it right. It does not surprise my that it is not right on the DTVPal DVR either. As long time Dish DVR user, I'm used to the inconsistent forward/backward scanning and 30 second skip and 10 second skip back.

Yeah but what about DVD recorders or HDDVD and BR players? Dish don't make them...

I can make my unit reboot consistently. I don't believe the TVGOS has anything to do with the reboots. I think it's a memory buffer issue.

I was recording a 1 hr program with a signal strength in 91% range. 20 minutes into the recording I start watching it from the beginning. I do skip the commercials when watching. My unit will reboot at least once every time before the 1 hour recording is finish. I have done this three times and all three times it rebooted at least once.

My unit will also reboot if recording two shows at once, but that is not consistent, about 50/50 chance.

Some original and some an attempt to capture what others have said.

Okay. Here's my wish: The ability to use TVGOS from more than one market. There must be many people who can receive stations from more than one market. Even if you have to leave your antenna pointed to a different station overnight once a week it would be nice to have. It could work like this:

Primary Zip Code: XXXXX
Secondary Zip Code: YYYYY

You know, it's like this everyplace. You would THINK that in Engineering 101 or whatever they teach. Do what the competition does as well as them and then do better. Case in point. I'm a mainframe systems programmer for over 30 years. For most of those years IBM did not provide a tape management system for keeping track of files on tapes. Finally in the late 80s (or maybe early 90s) IBM came out with one. I figured great, I'll switch and save money. Well when I looked at it it was NOT a transparent replacement for the competition. I went to a seminar in Manhattan with the developers and boy did I let them have it (nor did I know my future boss was in the room). They said we tested it. I said well if you did you certainly did NOT test it anywhere in the US because any current customer would ask what you were smoking. I told them, you have to have a DIRECT, TRANSPARENT, EQUIVALENT replacement or all you are offering is headaches for everyone. To this day I think IBM doesn't outsell the competitors (2 products) and they were bought years ago by Computer Associates.

Does anyone know if the program guide can be a combination of PSIP info and TVGOS?Yes, it can.

I got a Hard Drive upgrade to work today -

500 GB Western Digital AAK I believe for the firmware - I'm NOT taking it apart again.

Whoo-hoo - 71 + hours HD recording.

Soapbox time for those of you complaining about the "jerkiness" when doing trickplays -

How many of you know that Echostar and Tivo are in a lawsuit over Echostar's alleged infringementof Tivo's '389 patent ?

Well - along about last year, Echostar came up with their own method (also patent pending) that does not infringe on the '389 patent. In rough terms - Echostar (hereafter known as E*) does a simple dump to harddrive, counting the different frame types. When you do a trick play, E* does a on-the-fly calculation of how far to skip in the video file and looks for the nearest "whole screen" frame. It's GOING to be jerky compared to Tivo's method, but for the most part , it works. From what I've seen on the DTVPAL DVR, they are using the same method as the DBS DVRs - and it's going to have the same issues. It's rather CPU intensive.

The above is just my observations. The logic behind them may or may not be correct, but I'm guessing it is.

Receiver R188005XXXX-XX
Firmware F202TALD-N
Boot strap 1011TALD
Processor ID 29347107
I had the program guide update enabled 1:00AM
I had my real zip code entered.
I have it set to my real time zone.
I have TVGOS
I only had ethernet connected to do the software update
My video memory (VRAM) test is OK.
HD PASS or NOT RUN with 0 error count.
No USB device
My power cycle count is 39:(
My exceptions count is 0

I have now disabled the updates, removed my zip code, reset the power cycle count, and will thoroughly test the box with these new settings.

Soapbox time for those of you complaining about the "jerkiness" when doing trickplays -

How many of you know that Echostar and Tivo are in a lawsuit over Echostar's alleged infringementof Tivo's '389 patent ?

Well - along about last year, Echostar came up with their own method (also patent pending) that does not infringe on the '389 patent. In rough terms - Echostar (hereafter known as E*) does a simple dump to harddrive, counting the different frame types. When you do a trick play, E* does a on-the-fly calculation of how far to skip in the video file and looks for the nearest "whole screen" frame. It's GOING to be jerky compared to Tivo's method, but for the most part , it works. From what I've seen on the DTVPAL DVR, they are using the same method as the DBS DVRs - and it's going to have the same issues. It's rather CPU intensive.



The above is just my observations. The logic behind them may or may not be correct, but I'm guessing it is.


Describe trick play

What do you have the UPDATE option set to?

Try setting the UPDATE option to DISABLE (MENU>SETUP>UPDATES) and see if it helps...some have reported that it does.

Yesterday I reported that I had reset the update option to DISABLE, and set the zip code to 00000, and a reboot occurred within minutes. So my first conclusion was that changing these settings resulted in no improvement.

However, since that one reboot, I have watched for a couple of hours last night and again this morning, and no reboots.

Perhaps the change in settings did not take effect until the next reboot, after which all is well.

Stay tuned. If the reboot or lockup comes back, I'll report. If not, this could possibly have fixed the problem.

Question: Why do you think this solves the problem? The reboots were happening all the time, not just at the scheduled update time. Or is the the zip code change that is thought to be the crucial thing? I'm curious what the reasoning is. In any case, it might possibly be working.

I did talk to the Dish chat folks for a long, long time yesterday evening, and a new DTVPal is likely on its way. At the start of the chat, they had no familiarity with what this product is and no means to replace it. After a lot of work by the diligent chat guy, he appears to have moved mountains and figured out how to get me a new unit.

Did any of the beta testers not have ANY of these problems or where they just not allowed to talk about them?

Describe trick play"Trick play" refers to DVR functions like replay, 30s skip, ffw, rew, etc.

Dish Network's trickplay functions used to be highly responsive, but they modified them as mentioned by Scooper (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15447794#post15447794).

Sony's implementation works like TiVo's. Sony discontinued their product less than a year after it hit the market, so it made no sense for TiVo to take them to court.

"Trick play" refers to DVR functions like replay, 30s skip, ffw, rew, etc

I dont see how someone can patent ffw, rew. It's done all the time in computer systems. Read the disk ahead into a buffer and display it out of that buffer. This is just another one of those dopey American companies claiming a "process" as patentable. (We milk the cows from their teats so we patented it). If you guys out there would stop buying these Tivo things maybe they'd learn their lesson. After all, they've NEVER shown a profit. They seem to only make money suing people.

Yesterday I reported that I had reset the update option to DISABLE, and set the zip code to 00000, and a reboot occurred within minutes. So my first conclusion was that changing these settings resulted in no improvement.

However, since that one reboot, I have watched for a couple of hours last night and again this morning, and no reboots.

Perhaps the change in settings did not take effect until the next reboot, after which all is well.

Stay tuned. If the reboot or lockup comes back, I'll report. If not, this could possibly have fixed the problem.

Question: Why do you think this solves the problem? The reboots were happening all the time, not just at the scheduled update time. Or is the the zip code change that is thought to be the crucial thing? I'm curious what the reasoning is. In any case, it might possibly be working.

I did talk to the Dish chat folks for a long, long time yesterday evening, and a new DTVPal is likely on its way. At the start of the chat, they had no familiarity with what this product is and no means to replace it. After a lot of work by the diligent chat guy, he appears to have moved mountains and figured out how to get me a new unit.

I do not know. I do not think the zip code has anything to do with the reboots at all, but I do think the update setting does.
I do have a theory in progress, but it is too wild to even think about posting here...:eek:

I dont see how someone can patent ffw, rew. It's done all the time in computer systems. Read the disk ahead into a buffer and display it out of that buffer.TiVo didn't patent those functions, they patented one implementation of those functions. Their particular implementation turns out to be the best known way to provide "smooth" trickplay using a relatively low-power, low performance DVR CPU. For that reason, it was adopted by most DVR manufacturers.

In response to litigation, Dish Network created and patented their own, non-infringing implementation for trickplay on a DVR CPU and switched to that. Based on what others have described, it certainly sounds like that's what the DTVPal DVR is using.

>> Does anyone know if the program guide can be a combination of PSIP info and TVGOS?

> Yes, it can.


If you're looking at a given piece of guide information, say a program description, is there any way of knowing whether it came from PSIP or TVGOS? (Or do you simply have to compare with the guide entry from a PSIP-only device to tell?)

I did talk to the Dish chat folks for a long, long time yesterday evening, and a new DTVPal is likely on its way. At the start of the chat, they had no familiarity with what this product is and no means to replace it. After a lot of work by the diligent chat guy, he appears to have moved mountains and figured out how to get me a new unit.

I'm in the process of getting a new unit. Apparently Dish's return authorization software is having problems. They are still trying to resolve this for me.

Given the issues we're seeing, I'm beginning to wonder if a new unit will solve anything.

My unit has progressed from lock-up & reboot problems to just reboot problems.

I've had a couple of lock-ups. The most recent was last night. It seems that mine does it while the unit is in standby. Both times it happened, the next morning I could see both the green and red light on. No response or picture from the unit without unplugging and replugging. Today I disabled the "update" feature. We'll see if that cures the problem.

I guess this is for all you guys that are having the reboot/lockup issues......

Are you regretting buying the unit at all, or is it still worth it?

(I have been waiting for this unit for a year and now because of all the reboot issues, I haven't purchased it yet)

I guess this is for all you guys that are having the reboot/lockup issues......

Are you regretting buying the unit at all, or is it still worth it?

(I have been waiting for this unit for a year and now because of all the reboot issues, I haven't purchased it yet)

I'm not regretting it at all. It's a nuisance but I believe it will be fix eventually.

Just finished talking to Dish tech service. There problem database does not have the reboot as a major issue yet. I pointed her to this website & thread. She said that they can't post but it sounded like she'll pass it on to others.

I'm ending up with her email so I should be able to follow-up with resolution of the reboot issue.

8) If watching a show and then pressing the record button, start the recording from the beginning of the buffer possibly up to the show start time, rather than from the point the user pushes the record button.Note the bolded portion isn't possible with a timer-based DVR. A timer-based DVR can't tell when the program actually started.

I suggested a compromise for a timer-based DVR, which would record the buffer from the most recent 30 minute block.

Good point about the timer-based limitation. The block idea sounded good but a 30 minute block rule might be too short for instance if I come back to the TV for a show that started at 7:00 or 8:00 to hit the record button at 8:33 for instance, so an option to record the full buffer instead would be nice if the DVR doesn't know how to use the show start time that is displayed when I press the Info button during the show.

True but if he meant from the time the channel was selected that is possible.

Yes, recording the full buffer from when the channel was selected (currently 1 hour max) would work better for my scenario: where I might be watching an hour or two show and get called away a few minutes into it "for a minute" which after 45 minutes I realize I won't be getting a chance to watch it that night so I want to record as much of it that I missed as possible.

I'm not regretting it at all. It's a nuisance but I believe it will be fix eventually.
Ditto. I've only had 1 lockup and 1 unexpected reboot.
I have disabled updates and no problems since.
I love my machine, warts and all. :D

The recall button doesn't switch between the two channels that are recording?

It does for me, but I have to choose first one, then the other from the guide. Then it does.

Yep, it only works for me if the last two channels viewed are the ones being recorded, which usually aren't is my case.

I have read that the Dish ViP (i.e. HD) receivers, are smart enough to go back and put the beginning of the show in the recording without having to rewind first (but I don't have first hand experience of this).They do. That's the way most name-based DVRs (for cable and satellite) handle it.

Not quite. Neither of my Dish SD DVRs do, and both have name-based recording; they both start recording from the moment you hit REC. If you want more, you have to rewind to the point you want it to record (assuming it's in the one hour buffer).

Hi out there. I have the Sony DHG-HDD500. This has worked great for me the last coupel of years. My only regret is NOT having two tuners in it. I hate it when I want to record a show and cannot watch another at the same time....or should I keep what i have...If it's been working flawlessly, I'd keep it. If you get rid of it, and are stuck with only the Pal, you may end up regretting your decision. The Sony is a true gem. It'd be foolish to get rid of it at this stage.

You can always wait for the bugs to be worked out with the Pal, if they ever fully are (they never fully were with the Pal CECB).

You do know that there are workarounds for recording one thing and watching another with the Sony, don't you? Like splitting the signal to either the TV's tuner, or an external one?

The following questions were asked earlier:

1. Can you skip ahead in the Program Guide?

The answer is "yes". You can skip ahead a full day by using the yellow(?) skip button that you use to jump over commercials.

Don't forget about pressing a number and hitting the left or right arrow to move that many hours forward or backward in the guide.

I am disappointed that you cannot choose to record in SD instead of HD since HD takes up so much space. Instead, shows are recorded in whatever format they are broadcast in.

While that may be nice, realize that it is simply dumping the digital information received onto the harddrive as is. Converting from HD to SD would require rescaling before it could by stored. This would require more processing power, possibly more than its processor is capable of, especially considering that it may have up to three of these rescaling operations going on at the same time (one each for two recording events and one for the SD output for a playback event).

The reason old analog DVRs (and DVD-Recorders) have a setting for how much space to use is that you had to convert the analog to digital first and the amount of compression (i.e. space) could be controlled.

Did any of the beta testers not have ANY of these problems or where they just not allowed to talk about them?Probably wouldn't have mentioned them even if they did.

Probably wouldn't have mentioned them even if they did.
I'd be interested to know whether the beta testers reported their findings to Dish or to EchoStar.

I'd be interested to know whether the beta testers reported their findings to Dish or to EchoStar.And neither the testers nor Dish would probably tell you if they did. Or at least what those findngs were. ;)

And neither the testers nor Dish would probably tell you if they did. Or at least what those findngs were. ;)
What I meant was, there is so much confusion on the part of Dish tech support I wonder if they are the ones to call
with any problems, or would it be better to call EchoStar. :cool:

Soapbox time for those of you complaining about the "jerkiness" when doing trickplays - ...

Considering the other issues like random reboots, missing/skipped recordings and the unanswered question of whether TVGOS is reallly working or just the logo is displayed I would say a few megapixels in an image during fast forward is not something I am going to get concerned with. There is a long list of things to be fixed or added before this is even close to a concern.

Not quite. Neither of my Dish SD DVRs do, and both have name-based recording; they both start recording from the moment you hit REC. If you want more, you have to rewind to the point you want it to record (assuming it's in the one hour buffer).In reference to saving the buffer with the recording...

As far as I know, Dish Network ViP6xx/722, DirecTV HR2x DVRs, Comcast Motorola DVRs, Time Warner DVRs, Verizon Motorola DVRs, Moxi, and TiVo all do it that way.

Your DP-5xx satellite DVRs from 2001-2003 are not really representative of modern name-based implementations. The longer you go back in time, the fewer features you will find on a DVR. There's only so long that most companies continue to support older products with new features.

I find it a little amusing that the DTVPal DVR uses the same basic software and functionality as Dish Network satellite DVRs shipped in late 2001.

FIX: Creating two back-to-back timers will occupy both tuners in the DTVPal DVR.

...
The software should schedule back-to-back recordings on the same tuner, so the user can record these programs, regardless of the order that the record timers are created.



There is a trade-off here. Yes on the one hand it would be nice to avoid the conflicts caused by the current implementation but the current approach provides a way for recordings with early start/lend late specifications (the default) to function. If back to back recordings are on the same tuner this can't be done. One downside to the current implementation is that during the overlap period there is no tuner available for Live TV which I expect will create a black screen for the duration.

I would say the best way would be to do it the way they do now and if the user specifies the proverbial overlapping one hour program then reassign the tuners and cancel the overlap. If back to back recordings are assigned to the same tuner the user should at least be notified that the scheduled overlap will be canceled.

I have been waiting for this thing for a year now to come out and now that it is out and everybody is having reboot problems, etc. - I have decided to sit tight right now and hold off on purchasing one for a month or two to see if the "bugs" get fixed........... AND IT IS KILLING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not everyone is having reboot problems.

The ones with no problems make a post once that everything is working well and are pleased with the product. The unfortunate ones with the reboots get the majority of the post because they are trying to work out the issue.

For me, knock on wood, I have no problems and this DVR has fit my needs perfectly.

Hopefully I am not jinxing myself. ;)

I am officially saying that my reboot/lockup problems have been fixed. After another day of heavy use, not a reboot or lockup in sight. I would recommend that anyone still having problems give the settings I previously posted (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15440910&postcount=865) a try, and see if they help you.

I will only post again on this issue if I experience a subsequent reboot or lockup.

Did any of the beta testers not have ANY of these problems or where they just not allowed to talk about them?

Yes.

Just finished talking to Dish tech service. There problem database does not have the reboot as a major issue yet. I pointed her to this website & thread. She said that they can't post but it sounded like she'll pass it on to others.

I'm ending up with her email so I should be able to follow-up with resolution of the reboot issue.

I had an email exchange with tech@echostar.com and was informed that the information I provided about the reboots / power cycles would be provided to their engineering, although no mention of a fix. She did say to try downloading the new firmware.

Has anyone seen an intermittant issue where simply turning the unit on results in a reboot? Essentially sometimes when I press power, both the red and green leds come on, the splash 'loading' screen is displayed, the screen goes black and then both LEDs go out. It requires you to press the power button again to actually turn it on.

In reference to saving the buffer with the recording...

As far as I know, Dish Network ViP6xx/722, DirecTV HR2x DVRs, Comcast Motorola DVRs, Time Warner DVRs, Verizon Motorola DVRs, Moxi, and TiVo all do it that way.

Your DP-5xx satellite DVRs from 2001-2003 are not really representative of modern name-based implementations. The longer you go back in time, the fewer features you will find on a DVR. There's only so long that most companies continue to support older products with new features.

I find it a little amusing that the DTVPal DVR uses the same basic software and functionality as Dish Network satellite DVRs shipped in late 2001.

The DP-50x may be old, but the software has been updated along the way and does now have name-based recording. The hardware may be from 2001, but the latest software is from 2008.

However, my other receiver, the 625, is more recent (being the most recent of Dish's SD receivers, at least until they release an MPEG4 model later this year), also does not work like all the other DVRs you mention.

In my opinion, the software in the DTVPal DVR is cut from a different cloth (read: developed separately from the other Dish DVRs) and is more primitive than even the software that was in the original 50x, much less the current 50x software. The 625 software is even better.

Hopefully I am not jinxing myself. ;)

I am officially saying that my reboot/lockup problems have been fixed. After another day of heavy use, not a reboot or lockup in sight. I would recommend that anyone still having problems give the settings I previously posted (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15440910&postcount=865) a try, and see if they help you.

I will only post again on this issue if I experience a subsequent reboot or lockup.

I did the exact thing you recommended in your orginal post and also after very heavy use today - - - NO REBOOTS!

I recorded both Playoff games plus PBS and Star Trek - - :)

Not sure I'm ready to claim full sucess but my box is acting very much better after following your advise!

THANKS !!!

Does anyone know if the DTVPal DVR works with a Logitech Harmony remote. I want to buy a remote, but I want to make sure it works before I buy one. I think it will work with my Philips DVR, but I am selling that one since I have the DTVPal now. Has anyone programmed a Harmony to work with this and can all functionality be utilized, ie. guide, dvr, etc. If so, what model are you using?

Also, I experienced a lockup re-boot in the first few days I had the DTVPal, but nothing since. And I have the guide enabled to download at about 5am. I am also using stock firmware.

I have a Harmony 520 remote. When I program it with the previously suggested VIP625 selection it sends a signal to turn it on but it seems the burst is so short is won't turn on. Anyone have a suggestion?

If your Harmony can "Learn" you can teach it the power on command using the DTV PAL controller, which should work better than the pre-programed command.

Hopefully I am not jinxing myself. ;)

I am officially saying that my reboot/lockup problems have been fixed. After another day of heavy use, not a reboot or lockup in sight. I would recommend that anyone still having problems give the settings I previously posted (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15440910&postcount=865) a try, and see if they help you.

I will only post again on this issue if I experience a subsequent reboot or lockup.

Guess who just had a reboot!

:mad::(

It occurred at 11PM. Two recordings ended, and another started. I was watching one of the recordings, about 20 minutes in delay. Screen went blank, and then rebooted, and re-downloaded the guide. Oh well.

Edit: And a second reboot 35 minutes later. I am just a tad irritated.

If your Harmony can "Learn" you can teach it the power on command using the DTV PAL controller, which should work better than the pre-programed command.

mw390, did you do the "heavy lifting"? (prior post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15384752&highlight=harmony#post15384752))

If so, what did you enter as the model name?

mw390, did you do the "heavy lifting"? (prior post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15384752&highlight=harmony#post15384752))

If so, what did you enter as the model name?

When I did as you suggested DTVPAL DVR it took but when I went to add an activity it DID NOT present me with this device as one that changes channels. Only when I said it was a VIP622 and programmed each and every key did it work

TiVo didn't patent those functions, they patented one implementation of those functions. Their particular implementation turns out to be the best known way to provide "smooth" trickplay using a relatively low-power, low performance DVR CPU. For that reason, it was adopted by most DVR manufacturers.

In response to litigation, Dish Network created and patented their own, non-infringing implementation for trickplay on a DVR CPU and switched to that. Based on what others have described, it certainly sounds like that's what the DTVPal DVR is using.

If that's what Tivo does then they're not doing it like the Sony 250/500 DVR. COMPLETELY smooth at ANY speed, 3x,9x,30x,90x.

If that's what Tivo does then they're not doing it like the Sony 250/500 DVR. COMPLETELY smooth at ANY speed, 3x,9x,30x,90x.
mw390 - you got it wrong - what I described was the Echostar method.

The Tivo method puts an index in the A/V stream files and is very accurate / smooth for said jumps. There's probably a bit more to it than that, but that is the essentials.

I do not know. I do not think the zip code has anything to do with the reboots at all, but I do think the update setting does.
I do have a theory in progress, but it is too wild to even think about posting here...:eek:


For those of you following the reboot / lockup issues, an update:

Based on some of the suggestions here (from ProsPops and others), yesterday I set the update to DISABLE and set the zip code to 00000. I had one reboot thereafter, and then none for about a day. (I speculated that the new settings might not have taken effect until it rebooted, and then it was better).

There was some more discussion on this topic today on here, suggesting that perhaps the zip code didn't matter, and that only the disabling of the software update was needed to prevent reboots / lockups. So I got greedy and set the zip code back to 95123.

Since then (a few hours ago), I have had one reboot and one black screen lockup that was only recoverable by pulling the plug. Updates are still disabled.

We have to be very careful not to fall into the Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy, but at the very least we can conclude that simply setting the update to DISABLE by itself does not fix the reboot / lockup problem on my unit. There is still some chance that having both the updates disabled and the zip set to 00000 fixes the problem.

I've reset the zip code to 00000 now, and we'll see what happens over the next hours and days...

It's possible that none of these things fixes it...

If your Harmony can "Learn" you can teach it the power on command using the DTV PAL controller, which should work better than the pre-programed command.

The pre-programmed command for power toggle worked just fine (it selected some other Dish DVR) with my 880. No issues at all. May just be your remote. I had a similar problem (had to train my BH200 the play command) that no one else seemed to have using the database codes.

I've reset the zip code to 00000 now, and we'll see what happens over the next hours and days...

It's possible that none of these things fixes it...Please keep us posted.

Guess who just had a reboot!

:mad::(

It occurred at 11PM. Two recordings ended, and another started. I was watching one of the recordings, about 20 minutes in delay. Screen went blank, and then rebooted, and re-downloaded the guide. Oh well.

Edit: And a second reboot 35 minutes later. I am just a tad irritated.

That what I'm beginning to notice, you can't watch a program while another one is recording. It will reboot within an hour.


For those of you following the reboot / lockup issues, an update:

Based on some of the suggestions here (from ProsPops and others), yesterday I set the update to DISABLE and set the zip code to 00000. I had one reboot thereafter, and then none for about a day. (I speculated that the new settings might not have taken effect until it rebooted, and then it was better).

There was some more discussion on this topic today on here, suggesting that perhaps the zip code didn't matter, and that only the disabling of the software update was needed to prevent reboots / lockups. So I got greedy and set the zip code back to 95123.

Since then (a few hours ago), I have had one reboot and one black screen lockup that was only recoverable by pulling the plug. Updates are still disabled.

We have to be very careful not to fall into the Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy, but at the very least we can conclude that simply setting the update to DISABLE by itself does not fix the reboot / lockup problem on my unit. There is still some chance that having both the updates disabled and the zip set to 00000 fixes the problem.

I've reset the zip code to 00000 now, and we'll see what happens over the next hours and days...

It's possible that none of these things fixes it...

Try playing a 1 hour recording about 20 min into the recording from the beginning, skipping the commercials while watching it. Let me know if it didn't reboot before the hour recording is finish. I'm willing to bet it will reboot.

That what I'm beginning to notice, you can't watch a program while another one is recording. It will reboot within an hour.

Try playing a 1 hour recording about 20 min into the recording from the beginning, skipping the commercials while watching it. Let me know if it didn't reboot before the hour recording is finish. I'm willing to bet it will reboot.

Ill start by saying that I'm one of the ones that have not seen a reboot yet.

One of the things that we did was start watching a 2 hour program (Disney Christmas day parade) while it was still recording, I'm guessing around before 11am (it had started recording at 10am). We experienced no reboots.

However, if I remember correctly, a message came up during watching that announced that the IP connection had been lost (the Ethernet was no longer connected). Pressing select made it go away. This message occurred one other time, and I wanted to go in a reset the network settings so it wouldn't happen again, but they were already reset. I haven't seen the message again.

Perhaps this is when it causes a reboot for others, though why would it be checking so frequently since those with the reboot say it can happen several times an hour? The manaul says it will check for updates when in standby. The unit is obviously not in standby while watching a recording. Though the software could erroneously be checking while not in standby.

Perhaps also that the program guide updates is causing the reboots. (Why setting the zip code could also be affecting the reboots.) Maybe the PSIP or TVGuide data for certain stations in certain areas has something it in that the DTVPal DVR can not handle, so it crashes (reboots). Like buffer overflow problem fixes that Microsoft and Mozilla are all the time issuing for their browsers. Maybe those without reboots just aren't getting bad guide data?

Does anyone know if the DTVPal DVR works with a Logitech Harmony remote. I want to buy a remote, but I want to make sure it works before I buy one. I think it will work with my Philips DVR, but I am selling that one since I have the DTVPal now. Has anyone programmed a Harmony to work with this and can all functionality be utilized, ie. guide, dvr, etc. If so, what model are you using?

Also, I experienced a lockup re-boot in the first few days I had the DTVPal, but nothing since. And I have the guide enabled to download at about 5am. I am also using stock firmware.

Harmony can learn the controls for any remote device. You need to know which one to buy because some do IR and some do IR & RF. 880 or harmony one are a good choice.

Harmony can learn the controls for any remote device. You need to know which one to buy because some do IR and some do IR & RF. 880 or harmony one are a good choice.

VIP622-but I still had to make it learn all the buttons

Receiver R188005XXXX-XX
Firmware F202TALD-N
Boot strap 1011TALD
Processor ID 29347107
I had the program guide update enabled 1:00AM
I had my real zip code entered.
I have it set to my real time zone.
I have TVGOS
I only had ethernet connected to do the software update
My video memory (VRAM) test is OK.
HD PASS or NOT RUN with 0 error count.
No USB device
My power cycle count is 39:(
My exceptions count is 0

I have now disabled the updates, removed my zip code, reset the power cycle count, and will thoroughly test the box with these new settings.

I give up. I had 8 power cycles overnight. A movie I was recording is in 4 parts. I'm going to call the number on page 48 of the manual and try to exchange the unit.

Ditto. I've only had 1 lockup and 1 unexpected reboot.
I have disabled updates and no problems since.
I love my machine, warts and all. :D
Ditto - 1 lock up and 1 reboot.
I honestly believe my live TV viewing days are over.

I honestly believe my live TV viewing days are over.Mine were over since 1978 when I got my RCA Selectavision. ;)
http://www.retrothing.com/2008/08/rca-selectavisi.html

You do know that there are workarounds for recording one thing and watching another with the Sony, don't you? Like splitting the signal to either the TV's tuner, or an external one?[/QUOTE]

I have a Samsung 5 yr old Direct Tv HD tuner, but I can't pause this like the Sony DVR. Could I split antenna cable to the ANT IN and Cable IN to get two tuners ?

sounds like this thing has some problems, glad i waited and did not order one. thanks dish screwed up ordering process for saving me money.

sounds like this thing has some problems, glad i waited and did not order one. thanks dish screwed up ordering process for saving me money.

Good thing you waited, I may have had to wait another month for mine if you had ordered :p So far, mine has had zero issues...I still think that all the rough handling of these in transit probably made something come loose and is causing the issues (after all they used UPS).

They should have double boxed and there would probably be less issues. I wonder if they are going to sell refurbs for under $200?

For those of you following the reboot / lockup issues, an update:

Based on some of the suggestions here (from ProsPops and others), yesterday I set the update to DISABLE and set the zip code to 00000. I had one reboot thereafter, and then none for about a day. (I speculated that the new settings might not have taken effect until it rebooted, and then it was better).

There was some more discussion on this topic today on here, suggesting that perhaps the zip code didn't matter, and that only the disabling of the software update was needed to prevent reboots / lockups. So I got greedy and set the zip code back to 95123.

Since then (a few hours ago), I have had one reboot and one black screen lockup that was only recoverable by pulling the plug. Updates are still disabled.

We have to be very careful not to fall into the Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy, but at the very least we can conclude that simply setting the update to DISABLE by itself does not fix the reboot / lockup problem on my unit. There is still some chance that having both the updates disabled and the zip set to 00000 fixes the problem.

I've reset the zip code to 00000 now, and we'll see what happens over the next hours and days...

It's possible that none of these things fixes it...

Keep up the good fight.

Ill start by saying that I'm one of the ones that have not seen a reboot yet.

One of the things that we did was start watching a 2 hour program (Disney Christmas day parade) while it was still recording, I'm guessing around before 11am (it had started recording at 10am). We experienced no reboots.

However, if I remember correctly, a message came up during watching that announced that the IP connection had been lost (the Ethernet was no longer connected). Pressing select made it go away. This message occurred one other time, and I wanted to go in a reset the network settings so it wouldn't happen again, but they were already reset. I haven't seen the message again.

Perhaps this is when it causes a reboot for others, though why would it be checking so frequently since those with the reboot say it can happen several times an hour? The manaul says it will check for updates when in standby. The unit is obviously not in standby while watching a recording. Though the software could erroneously be checking while not in standby.

Perhaps also that the program guide updates is causing the reboots. (Why setting the zip code could also be affecting the reboots.) Maybe the PSIP or TVGuide data for certain stations in certain areas has something it in that the DTVPal DVR can not handle, so it crashes (reboots). Like buffer overflow problem fixes that Microsoft and Mozilla are all the time issuing for their browsers. Maybe those without reboots just aren't getting bad guide data?

Originally Posted by ProsPops http://images.avsforum.com/avs-images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15448140#post15448140)
I do not know. I do not think the zip code has anything to do with the reboots at all, but I do think the update setting does.
I do have a theory in progress, but it is too wild to even think about posting here...:eek:


Think about the issues with the Pal CECB.

That what I'm beginning to notice, you can't watch a program while another one is recording. It will reboot within an hour.

Try playing a 1 hour recording about 20 min into the recording from the beginning, skipping the commercials while watching it. Let me know if it didn't reboot before the hour recording is finish. I'm willing to bet it will reboot.

I have seen neither of these problems.

I haven't had many reboots, if any, and only one lockup, but...
I've had my Vizio HDTV connected to a Home-Brew Media Center for some time (lotsa video on the 'Net), so I went and got a switch (hub) and connected both the HBMC and the Pal to it. I got a normal "Ethernet Connection Detected" and a firmware update. I've got both Ubuntu Linux and Windows XP on the HBMC. I haven't used the Linux much lately, but every time I do, I get messages about updates waiting to be installed. Browsing on the web, I see many messages from people wondering how to turn their automatic updating on or off.
So what if there is an automatic update in the underlying Linux that Echostar didn't disable? Sort of like junk DNA. I'm listening to Last.FM on another window (same PC, same DSL line) as I type this, and I am getting occasional dropout.
I apologize for the earlier version of this comment. I think I'm wrong about being able to "see" and Ping the Pal. I've got a network for my small apartment building and I guess I was seeing someone else's Network Device because I can't re-acquire it now even when it is turned on. I'll add Posting to one more thing I shouldn't do when I am very tired.

sounds like this thing has some problems, glad i waited and did not order one. thanks dish screwed up ordering process for saving me money.Let's see if the second production run cleans things up a bit when they start shipping in mid to late Jan. As of right now, I'm with you and won't be ordering one until the reboot issue is acknowledged and corrected. I've read enough posts by people with plasma displays saying the PQ is excellent to trust that part. However, record/playback reliability is my second non-negotiable requirement and it sounds like a no-pass there. Hopefull it is just a firmware fix, but firmware can't fix bad hardware or a bad design. I'm waiting at least until March, possibly longer if there is any indication these will eventually be available at B&M stores. This is not a unit I want to buy without an easy return avenue.

I'll bet Rammitinski is looking at his DVTPal CECB and nodding his head, knowingly.

It's hard to read this saga since I've lived it a couple times in the past as a Dish paying beta tester.

My 8.5 years experience with Dish is that they sell prototypes to customers without them knowing it.

First the Dishplayer then the $500 Dish 721 DVR and then the $1000 Dish 921 DVR. Nothing but problem after problem from day one and always random with software upgrades that didn't and tech support that didn't either.

Since leaving Dish life has been better on the other dish but I was hoping that Dish Network had gotten better and especially with this new DTVPal DVR but it appears not.

If Dish's past performance is an indication it will be a long time and maybe never before all the bugs are worked out and it proves reliable.

I hope I'm wrong but as the Zep sang... the song remains the same

I regret buying this DTVPAL DVR. I received it ~12-23-08 and it is already broken and I won't be able to get a refund. There is something not right about that but it is my own fault for agreeing to buy something where all sales are final. I guess they can sell you what ever they want and if it does't work then it is just your tough luck.
Pilgrim1

I regret buying this DTVPAL DVR. I received it ~12-23-08 and it is already broken and I won't be able to get a refund. There is something not right about that but it is my own fault for agreeing to buy something where all sales are final. I guess they can sell you what ever they want and if it does't work then it is just your tough luck.
Pilgrim1All sales are final? That can't be right for a defective unit. Did you ask them to send you a replacement?

bfdtv, I don't want a relacement I want a refund. But to answer your question I have no choice but to send it back or be out my 200+ dollars.
Thanks.

bfdtv, I don't want a relacement I want a refund. But to answer your question I have no choice but to send it back or be out my 200+ dollars.
Thanks.Just curious...

When you ordered the unit, was there any disclaimer on the actual order screen about the return policy (or lack thereof)?

I know there is a link with that information (http://www.dishnetwork.com/dtvpal/disclosure.shtml) at the bottom of DTVPal.com, but I am just curious whether the had to agree to that before you could proceed with your order.

test

bfdtv,
Here is the order page https://customersupport.dishnetwork.com/builddish/dtvpal/dtvPalLand.do
with a box to check at the bottom. I am assuming this is the same page I used but I don't remember exactly. Also the owners manual says I have to pay for shipping to return the unit.
That is bad if I have to pay for shipping and then get another unit that may not work.
Ugh, Pilgrim1

So what if there is an automatic update in the underlying Linux that Echostar didn't disable? Sort of like junk DNA. Those update nags come from the applications not the operating system. I'm assuming that E* wrote its own update script so point the finger there.

Hi out there. I have the Sony DHG-HDD500. This has worked great for me the last coupel of years. My only regret is NOT having two tuners in it. I hate it when I want to record a show and cannot watch another at the same time. It's either one or the other. I only have OTA Green Bay,WI stations here. The TVGuide works great. Is this new DTVPal really that great for watching a show and recording another at the sametime ? Is the picture quality any better than my Sony? I'm running HDMI from Sony to Mits projector to my 92" Firehawk screen. or should I keep what i have...

I have both, same picture quality way better tuners on the DTVPal (4 years of technology has improved the tuners a lot). Watching one while recording another works, or recording two while watching a third on my TV's tuner also works. I have had to turn it off and back on if a guide update comes in while I am watching a recording, it interrupts playback for about 1 minute when it happens (I have to get back to the recording and hit resume). Hopefully the next firmware update solves it.

So far no more reboots, but I haven't used it that much today yet.

While the reboot saga continues, another question: Given everything that has been discussed here, I have some doubt as to whether anyone's box is actually getting TV Guide OS, even if the logo appears. Here's what is raising doubts for me:

1. I do have the logo now
2. A number of channels do not have guide information beyond 24 hours, including all but one of the local PBS stations, and including the main ABC affiliate. Fox, CBS, NBC, one of the PBS stations (not the main one), and a few of the independents have info out to 1 week; the rest don't.
3. The section in pages 33-40 of the user manual would seem to make no sense if the DTVPal box itself includes the ability to receive and use TVGOS data. They seem to be telling you that you need another device with TVGOS capability, and can supply the data from that unit to your DTVPal DVR if you want.

Surely TV Guide has more info available than my DTVPal Guide is displaying?

Perhaps it is only getting PSIP data, even with the logo showing?

If the unit is not returnable what incentive to they have to correct the lockup issues? I'm in the 2nd batch and if they haven't fixed the problem by then I'll be filing a dispute with my CC company if they won't accept returns.

I can just see how the "repair process" may go:
1: Have problem, ship unit to them.
2: They claim they can't duplicate problem and send it back to you.
3: You now have no use of your unit for 2 weeks, have paid shipping and it still isn't fixed.

In light of all the problems everybody is having I might just cancel my order and build a HTPC. Has anybody else had any luck getting CC charges refunded from canceled orders w/o going through your CC company?

So far no more reboots, but I haven't used it that much today yet.

While the reboot saga continues, another question: Given everything that has been discussed here, I have some doubt as to whether anyone's box is actually getting TV Guide OS, even if the logo appears. Here's what is raising doubts for me:

1. I do have the logo now
2. A number of channels do not have guide information beyond 24 hours, including all but one of the local PBS stations, and including the main ABC affiliate. Fox, CBS, NBC, one of the PBS stations (not the main one), and a few of the independents have info out to 1 week; the rest don't.
3. The section in pages 33-40 of the user manual would seem to make no sense if the DTVPal box itself includes the ability to receive and use TVGOS data. They seem to be telling you that you need another device with TVGOS capability, and can supply the data from that unit to your DTVPal DVR if you want.

Surely TV Guide has more info available than my DTVPal Guide is displaying?

Perhaps it is only getting PSIP data, even with the logo showing?

It can use a mix of data. The NBC channel in my area doesn't have any TVGOS data (only 12 hours of PSIP). I have contacted the station that sends out the digital TVGOS information to see who to contact to get this corrected. (Luckily, NBC has nothing but trash on their network). All of my other channels have 7 days of guides as expected.

Receiver R188005XXXX-XX
Firmware F202TALD-N
Boot strap 1011TALD
Processor ID 29347107
Program guide update enabled 1:00AM
Real zip code entered.
Set to my real time zone.
I have TVGOS
Ethernet only connected to do the software update
Video memory (VRAM) test is OK.
HD PASS or NOT RUN with 0 error count.
No USB device
Power cycle count is 39:(
Exceptions count is 0

I have now disabled the updates, removed my zip code, reset the power cycle count, and will thoroughly test the box with these new settings.

I give up. I had 8 power cycles overnight. A movie I was recording is in 4 parts. I'm going to call the number on page 48 of the manual and try to exchange the unit.

jeffmplsmn,

Thanks for posting your units ID STRING(s), doing makes your posts:

A: Carry much more "weight" with the manufacturer. (Hard for mfg to say there is NO problem.. that the problems are isolated occurrences affecting only a "small" number of customers.)
B: Helps establish a PATTERN- again to prove end-users are being negatively affected.
C: Is of use to tech support, those responsible for coming up with a "fix". The "fix" for example may turn out to be "HARDWARE-RELATED"
(EG: Bad run of out of spec components from one of their suppliers- Won't be the first time...)
D: Helps those customers dealing with the mfg / or say those customers trying to get a refund thru their credit card company...

In a nutshell to those still refusing to post id strings:

Which thread carries more weight with a manufacturer.
EG= makes them look bad, thereby forcing them to "fix" reported problems in a timely manner:

Thread A: In which you have hundreds, or thousands of CUSTOMERS posting their problematic units serial number range, production date, purchase date, factory batch lots number, etc..

OR

Thread B: In which you have the same number of posts- but no-one is posting any info that can be validated, or is usable to establish what serial number ranges that are being affected?

.

If the unit is not returnable what incentive to they have to correct the lockup issues? I'm in the 2nd batch and if they haven't fixed the problem by then I'll be filing a dispute with my CC company if they won't accept returns.

I can just see how the "repair process" may go:
1: Have problem, ship unit to them.
2: They claim they can't duplicate problem and send it back to you.
3: You now have no use of your unit for 2 weeks, have paid shipping and it still isn't fixed.

In light of all the problems everybody is having I might just cancel my order and build a HTPC. Has anybody else had any luck getting CC charges refunded from canceled orders w/o going through your CC company?


Sorry, but you cannot cancel your order. At least for preorders.:(

My unit seems to be multi tasking challenge. I can totally rely on it to record one show to view later. I have recorded 8 hours of football straight without a hiccup. If I ask it to record two shows at once, then its 50/50 that I will get a reboot. If I watch a recorded show while recording another then a reboot will certainly happen.

I will give them until early Feb to find a firmware fix. Otherwise, I will be asking for a replacement unit then.

The people without the reboot problem must be so happy with the purchase.

Anyone swap to a bigger hard drive have this problem?

While the reboot saga continues, another question: Given everything that has been discussed here, I have some doubt as to whether anyone's box is actually getting TV Guide OS, even if the logo appears. Here's what is raising doubts for me:

1. I do have the logo now
2. A number of channels do not have guide information beyond 24 hours, including all but one of the local PBS stations, and including the main ABC affiliate. Fox, CBS, NBC, one of the PBS stations (not the main one), and a few of the independents have info out to 1 week; the rest don't.
3. The section in pages 33-40 of the user manual would seem to make no sense if the DTVPal box itself includes the ability to receive and use TVGOS data. They seem to be telling you that you need another device with TVGOS capability, and can supply the data from that unit to your DTVPal DVR if you want.

Surely TV Guide has more info available than my DTVPal Guide is displaying?

Perhaps it is only getting PSIP data, even with the logo showing?

It can use a mix of data. The NBC channel in my area doesn't have any TVGOS data (only 12 hours of PSIP). I have contacted the station that sends out the digital TVGOS information to see who to contact to get this corrected. (Luckily, NBC has nothing but trash on their network). All of my other channels have 7 days of guides as expected.

Why would the TV Guide info be incomplete? Shouldn't the data be coming from TV Guide, as opposed to the station that happens to be transmitting the data?

Since TV Guide has all the info available for its print editions, I would have expected that they would supply complete info if they were going to bother at all.

I don't have any experience with TVGOS with any other devices. Perhaps someone can comment regarding the completeness of TVGOS data when viewed on devices that are known to be reading the data?

Why would the TV Guide info be incomplete? Shouldn't the data be coming from TV Guide, as opposed to the station that happens to be transmitting the data?Did you follow the instructions in the first post for TVGuide?

TVGuide offers 8-days of program information for the big four (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX) in every market where it is available. If you see a TVGuide logo, and aren't getting that, then either you did not properly setup your DTVPal DVR, or your CBS affiliate has some sort of configuration error on their end.

Edit: Apparently, this is not always the case. At this time, it looks like program information delivered via digital TVGOS is not always comparable to what was delivered with analog TVGOS. At least two users in two different TVGOS markets are missing program information for 1-2 of the "big 4" networks with the DTVPal DVR.

Why would the TV Guide info be incomplete? Shouldn't the data be coming from TV Guide, as opposed to the station that happens to be transmitting the data?

Since TV Guide has all the info available for its print editions, I would have expected that they would supply complete info if they were going to bother at all.

I don't have any experience with TVGOS with any other devices. Perhaps someone can comment regarding the completeness of TVGOS data when viewed on devices that are known to be reading the data?
My 2 TVGOS devices have always had complete data for a week on the broadcast stations, except when something goes blooey, in which case I have NO data for a specific DAY (for ANY channel)