Did you follow the instructions in the first post for TVGuide?

TVGuide offers 8-days of program information for the big four (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX) in every market where it is available. If you see a TVGuide logo, and aren't getting that, then either you did not properly setup your DTVPal DVR, or your CBS affiliate has some sort of configuration error on their end.
I think it would mean that Gemstar has some kind of messup, since they supply the TVGOS data stream directly to their own equipment installed at the broadcast station.

Did you follow the instructions in the first post for TVGuide?

TVGuide offers 8-days of program information for the big four (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX) in every market where it is available. If you see a TVGuide logo, and aren't getting that, then either you did not properly setup your DTVPal DVR, or your CBS affiliate has some sort of configuration error on their end.

My analog TVGOS device receives all of the listings, the DTVPal DVR digital only TVGOS device receives all but NBC listings. (and out of area ABC Listings which appear on my analog device). I have contact my CBS station and am waiting to hear back. I might email the engineer I had contacted several months back directly if I don't hear anything soon.

Hey i have a newbie question for you. I just bought a new Panasonic HDTV today. I hooked up the DVTPAL DVR to it with an HDMI cable. In the HDTV menu I selected 720p which my TV is and 16:9 aspect ratio and hit ok. It takes the DVR 10 or more seconds to change a channel. My hook up is an antenna in to the DVR, an HDMI to my HDMI 1 input and an analog stereo output from my DVR to my amp (i like prologic II). I can't deal with 10 second channel changes. Any idea?

Hey i have a newbie question for you. I just bought a new Panasonic HDTV today. I hooked up the DVTPAL DVR to it with an HDMI cable. In the HDTV menu I selected 720p which my TV is and 16:9 aspect ratio and hit ok. It takes the DVR 10 or more seconds to change a channel. My hook up is an antenna in to the DVR, an HDMI to my HDMI 1 input and an analog stereo output from my DVR to my amp (i like prologic II). I can't deal with 10 second channel changes. Any idea?

What is the signal strength on those channels? I've only noticed slow changes when the strength was less then 60% (while it tries to lock a signal)

Also, are you changing channels with the channel up & channel down buttons, or with the number keys?

What is the signal strength on those channels? I've only noticed slow changes when the strength was less then 60% (while it tries to lock a signal)

Well when i had it hooked up to my analog Tv using composite outs it took less than 2 seconds. Now through HDMI it takes a good 10 seconds. Signal is fine 80+. Is this a handshaking issue? Maybe i'll try component and see what i get. Can i use normal composite cables for component? I've never used componant before.

Can i use normal composite cables for component? I've never used componant before.

Yes, I've seen it done many times in a pinch Yellow=Green, White=Blue. Not optimum but it will work.

Receiver R188005XXXX-XX
Firmware F202TALD-N
Boot strap 1011TALD
Processor ID 29237057

I have just done a taxing exercise:

I set two recordings at the same time, play off game and something else. While those were recording I replayed a previous recording, stopping starting pausing skipping. Paused that and switched to the current recording of the game, stopping starting pausing skipping. Paused that and switched back to my previous recording, rinsed and repeated. I am now back to viewing the game, don't tell me what happens, the second recording ended.

Result: No lockup, No reboot.

Also, I don't have TVGOS. PSIP only.

Yes, I've seen it done many times in a pinch Yellow=Green, White=Blue. Not optimum but it will work.

Thx...well something is messed up with it because now it does it on all video outs, componant, composite and HDMI....i'm going to do a system reset and see where that gets me.

Ok...well that was weird.....it froze up on me so i unplugged the unit and waited a couple of minutes and turned the thing back on. HDMI only this time. All is fine and back to normal. Maybe it doesn't like u plugging things in while it;s turned on. Finicky thing. Anyway it's working as normal now. Thx.

The manual says to be sure it's off before plugging in things. :)

Manuals always say that.

I never do. :D

Hi out there. I have the Sony DHG-HDD500. This has worked great for me the last couple of years. My only regret is NOT having two tuners in it. I hate it when I want to record a show and cannot watch another at the same time. It's either one or the other. I only have OTA Green Bay,WI stations here. The TVGuide works great. Is this new DTVPal really that great for watching a show and recording another at the sametime ? Is the picture quality any better than my Sony? I'm running HDMI from Sony to Mits projector to my 92" Firehawk screen. or should I keep what i have...

As a previous Dual Sony DVR 250 owner I say YES!
I bought one PAL DVR to check it out then quickly after sold both of my Sonys and ordered another PAL DVR.
Don't get me wrong the Sony was wayyyy more polished in the looks of the interface and visual implementation of TVGOS but TWO tuners, better tuners, much quicker response, and I sold each of my Sony 250 DVRs for over $375.00.

Ok...well that was weird.....it froze up on me so i unplugged the unit and waited a couple of minutes and turned the thing back on. HDMI only this time. All is fine and back to normal. Maybe it doesn't like u plugging things in while it;s turned on. Finicky thing. Anyway it's working as normal now. Thx.

I discovered this as well - don't have both HDMI and component at the same time on the same TV. It might work OK if you're going to two different displays - I don't have any way to test that.

My 2 TVGOS devices have always had complete data for a week on the broadcast stations, except when something goes blooey, in which case I have NO data for a specific DAY (for ANY channel)


My Sony HDD250 and Sharp 37 inch HDTV always have 8 days of TVGOS data for OTA and cable channels.
The Sony has 2 RF inputs and the Sharp has 3. The Sharp has separate tuners for NTSC, ATSC and cable making for painless switching between them (from the remote). Both have cable card slots but no cards installed.

The TVGOS seamlessly integrates analog, digital and cable data in the listings and shows the channels as e.g ch 8, ch 8 cable, ch 8.1 ant and ch 8.1 cable where applicable.
This is how TVGOS is supposed to work.

Both units receive analog TVGOS data, currently from CBS ch 8 in San Diego.

While I would like to use a DTVPal DVR any purchase will be on hold until the reboot and TVGOS problems are eliminated.

BTW the G52LF Vizio HDTV shows PSIP data for some but not all local DTV stations. Those that transmit PSIP show from 2 to 7 days depending on the station. I would hope but do not really expect that all stations will supply a week's worth of PSIP program data after the Feb changeover. The many glitches reported on hdtv.forsandiego.com do not inspire confidence in the capability or devotion of some local broadcast engineers.
One exception, Gary Stillwell of XETV is great and always on top of any problems. He also regularly reports on hdtv.forsandiego.com.

Originally Posted by bfdtv

TVGuide offers 8-days of program information for the big four (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX) in every market where it is available. If you see a TVGuide logo, and aren't getting that, then either you did not properly setup your DTVPal DVR, or your CBS affiliate has some sort of configuration error on their end.

I think it would mean that Gemstar has some kind of messup, since they supply the TVGOS data stream directly to their own equipment installed at the broadcast station.

With the TVGuide logo displayed, I continue to see less than 12 hours of data for three of the five stations here in Rochester and a week's worth of data for only two of five. I spoke with an engineer at our CBS affiliate -- one of the stations for which I have only PSIP data, as well as the TVGOS broadcaster -- and:
- he could not have seemed much LESS interested;
- he told me that Macrovision provides the TVGOS box and feeds it the data over the Internet;
- he said that Macrovision calls HIM when there's a problem with their box;
- he disclaimed any responsibility for the operation of the box or the integrity of the data.

I called the 800-number on the support page of the Macrovision website, but the outgoing message on their phone tree system made it clear that their customers are the device manufacturers (like Dish) NOT end consumers, and they really wanted me to call Dish. Which I did. But that seemed pretty useless. I think I'll call Macrovision again this week and try to talk with an engineer ...even if they'd rather I didn't!

[QUOTE=xmen888;15456701]My unit seems to be multi tasking challenge. I can totally rely on it to record one show to view later. I have recorded 8 hours of football straight without a hiccup. If I ask it to record two shows at once, then its 50/50 that I will get a reboot. If I watch a recorded show while recording another then a reboot will certainly happen.

I will give them until early Feb to find a firmware fix. Otherwise, I will be asking for a replacement unit then.

The people without the reboot problem must be so happy with the purchase.

QUOTE]

I had not had one reboot in 1 1/2 week until tonight, and it was doing about what you describe:
Recording:
Ch 1 - 5:30 - 7:30
Ch 2 - 7 - 9
Ch 1 - 7:30 - 9:30

I tried to go to "My Recordings" and watch the show I was recording on Ch 2 and it wouldn't allow me to view the recording at 8pm. It only gave me the choice of watching Ch 1's earlier recording, or cancel Ch 2's recordings. At 9:02 when it should have finished Ch 2's recordings, it wasn't even there. I then tried to go back and see what was recorded on Ch 1, and it rebooted at 9:05.

Is it possible this is like our old Windows boxes, and just need a reboot ever so often?

I called the 800-number on the support page of the Macrovision website, but the outgoing message on their phone tree system made it clear that there customers are the device manufacturers (like Dish) NOT end consumers, and they really wanted me to call Dish. Which I did. But that seemed pretty useless. I think I'll call Macrovision again this week and try to talk with an engineer ...even if they'd rather I didn't!It sounds like you have done everything you can. Sounds like TVGuide just isn't providing a week of guide data for all stations in your area, for whatever reason. Hopefully, these are just early growing pains that will be resolved as we approach the February shutoff date.

You might look in the Sony DHG-HDD250/500 thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537711) to see if anyone in your area is getting a full 8 days (today + next 7) on all four networks. That would more clearly establish who is at fault.

It sounds like you have done everything you can. Sounds like TVGuide just isn't providing a week of guide data for all stations in your area, for whatever reason. Hopefully, these are just early growing pains that will be resolved as we approach the February shutoff date.

You might look in the Sony DHG-HDD250/500 thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537711) to see if anyone in your area is getting a full 8 days (today + next 7) on all four networks. That would more clearly establish who is at fault.

I've had 2 250s for several years and ALWAYS got Guide data

It sounds like you have done everything you can. Sounds like TVGuide just isn't providing a week of guide data for all stations in your area, for whatever reason. Hopefully, these are just early growing pains that will be resolved as we approach the February shutoff date.

You might look in the Sony DHG-HDD250/500 thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537711) to see if anyone in your area is getting a full 8 days (today + next 7) on all four networks. That would more clearly establish who is at fault.

Thanks for the suggestion bfdtv. I searched that thread for "Rochester" but didn't turn up anything useful.

So it goes...

I've had 2 250s for several years and ALWAYS got Guide dataYou watch the Rochester, NY locals from Levittown? ;)

Jlkane is trying to figure out why he isn't getting program information from digital TVGOS for two networks in Rochester. I'm not sure that past experiences with analog TVGOS and/or markets outside of Rochester are really relevant to his situation. Unless, of course, your Sonys got information for the NYC locals via digital TVGOS that you aren't getting with your DTVPal DVR.

Thanks for the suggestion bfdtv. I searched that thread for "Rochester" but didn't turn up anything useful.

So it goes...You could also ask in the Rochester, NY thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=394083&highlight=rochester) whether anyone has a TVGOS device that is receiving program information for those locals.

I woke this morning and the remote would not turn on the pal. I had to unplug the unit, it rebooted, shut down and then the remote worked. Anybody else have this issue yet.

Also another annoying reboot divided my recording tonight 2005 hrs. Saturday night sport show NBC.

Thanks for the suggestion bfdtv. I searched that thread for "Rochester" but didn't turn up anything useful.

So it goes...
You might want to pose a question in that thread, because not everyone who interacts there mentions where they're from, and not everyone who reads the thread posts, unless they see something that's directly pertinent to them!

My unit seems to be multi tasking challenged.

I suspect this is the key to the intemittent problems such as reboots, freezes, and non-repeatable errors. I believe multi-tasking (maintenance tasks like checking for updates while doing anything else could qualify and explain the reboot/update flag connection) is corrupting memory. Note that memory corruption is likely to lead to delayed crashes, reboots and bugs rather than immediate or consistent errant behavior. That would explain why people who turned off updates sometimes experience a crash or reboot - as memory is already corrupted by the time updates are turned off until the first reboot following turning off updates.

If my theory is correct, people who turn off updates (may need to set zip code to all zeroes to avoid PSIP guide loading multitasking), reboot and then limit activity to only watching or recording one channel at a time shouldn't experience crashes or reboots, while others would experience intermittent failures. Does anyone have an experience with the DTVPal DVR inconsistent with this theory?

John

I don't have any experience with TVGOS with any other devices. Perhaps someone can comment regarding the completeness of TVGOS data when viewed on devices that are known to be reading the data?All I know is that the newer TV's that are out now with the Digital TVGOS will only give information that goes out 24 hours.

The Mitsubishi's specifically call the feature "TV Guide Daily" in their listed specs, but the Sony's are known to do the same thing.

As a previous Dual Sony DVR 250 owner I say YES!
I bought one PAL DVR to check it out then quickly after sold both of my Sonys and ordered another PAL DVR.
Don't get me wrong the Sony was wayyyy more polished in the looks of the interface and visual implementation of TVGOS but TWO tuners, better tuners, much quicker response, and I sold each of my Sony 250 DVRs for over $375.00.No matter what any one person's experience is, I still wouldn't recommend getting rid of the Sony just yet.

If he "needs" the money from the Sony to purchase the Pal, then that's a definite "wait".

I woke this morning and the remote would not turn on the pal. I had to unplug the unit, it rebooted, shut down and then the remote worked. Anybody else have this issue yet.That was a commonly reported problem with the DTVPal CECB.

Suggest you read post #865 from RustyCruiser and if you follow that same pattern, using a Manhattan zip, please post your experiences.

And, based on what I've been reading, if you're getting true TV Guide on Screen (TVGOS) data, then a red TV Guide logo should appear in the upper right part of the guide screen. But then even TV Guide data may exist for the major networks, not necessarily all PBS networks whose data may still only be supplied via PSIP.

Yeah, I used 10001 and it seems I got data for 8 days, except WPIX. And I checked my COUNTERS. All zeroes. My machine is hooked up to a Panamax 5300. I am Ethernet connected and F202 firmware. So far none of my recorded shows have been divided

No matter what any one person's experience is, I still wouldn't recommend getting rid of the Sony just yet.

If he "needs" the money from the Sony to purchase the Pal, then that's a definite "wait".

I kept ONE of my two.

You watch the Rochester, NY locals from Levittown? ;)

Jlkane is trying to figure out why he isn't getting program information from digital TVGOS for two networks in Rochester. I'm not sure that past experiences with analog TVGOS and/or markets outside of Rochester are really relevant to his situation. Unless, of course, your Sonys got information for the NYC locals via digital TVGOS that you aren't getting with your DTVPal DVR.

Kill me now

My unit seems to be multi tasking challenge. I can totally rely on it to record one show to view later. I have recorded 8 hours of football straight without a hiccup. If I ask it to record two shows at once, then its 50/50 that I will get a reboot. If I watch a recorded show while recording another then a reboot will certainly happen.

I will give them until early Feb to find a firmware fix. Otherwise, I will be asking for a replacement unit then.

The people without the reboot problem must be so happy with the purchase.

Anyone swap to a bigger hard drive have this problem?

I don't think anything is wrong with your unit, i think it is a software bug. I have had one lock up and one reboot since i recieved it christmas eve. But none since. I think everyone will have a reboot sooner or later. A replacement unit isn't going to fix the problem, a software update will.

You could also ask in the Rochester, NY thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=394083&highlight=rochester) whether anyone has a TVGOS device that is receiving program information for those locals.

FWIW, I see the same thing as jlkane with my Pal DVR.

While the reboot saga continues, another question: Given everything that has been discussed here, I have some doubt as to whether anyone's box is actually getting TV Guide OS, even if the logo appears.

I wondered the same. My Sony TV only has two days of listings but all channel info is filled out with much more detailed info then the PAL guide (TV looks much better too).

However, I think a good indication is in the date/time setup screen which states something like, "Time has been acquired from TV Guide" and no longer allows manual input. That seems to clearly indicate the reception of TVGuide data. Why the data is so sparse in the guide is a mystery to me.

I still see power cycles on occasion during initial power up but not sure if that is normal or not, When this occurs the unit needs to reassemble the Guide data while the TVGuide logo is missing, it takes quite a while. Anyone else experience this?

What's frustrating is Dish has known about these issues for over a year and still hasn't done anything to fix them. Don't tell me the beta testers didn't have problems, we all know they did but just kept their mouth zipped about it.

The bigger question is if they didn't fix it for almost a year before the final release what makes you think they will (or even can) fix it now? is the unit functional and dependable even with all the reboot issues? Would you trust your "must have" recordings to be saved consistently with the current issues? Is the unit basically decent and the reboots are a minor annoyance, or do the reboots kill most of the functionally?

I might trust the Pal DVR to record one must have, high quality recording. But I'll still be using my VCRs to record a second or third show at the same time. ;) If the DVR locks up recording ONE show, I'll be greatly annoyed. I don't have the Pal DVR yet - scheduled to ship later this month - so can't post any personal experience. Just planning ahead how I'll be doing things . . .

Hello everyone,

New member here. I have the DTVPal DVR, and have not had any of the locking/rebooting issues. I've recorded probably 20 hours of HD and SD content including 2 programs at once several times, and watched more without issues. I don't get TVGOS data, as I live in Buffalo, apparently the city technology forgot (I know the rabbitears.com site claims that WIVB in Buffalo is confirmed as broadcasting digital TVGOS, I have no idea where they got that info from as I emailed the director of engineering at WIVB, who responded by saying they are not broadcasting TVGOS, nor do they have plans to in the future). I also don't have the ethernet cable hooked up either. I did apply the f202 patch, but unhooked the ethernet cable after applying the upgrade. I also disabled the update scheduler. How many folks who are having the reboot/locking issues don't get TVGOS? Could echostar's botched implementation of TVGOS be causing the reboot issues?

Thanks,

Erik

Could echostar's botched implementation of TVGOS be causing the reboot issues?




I sure hope it is that simple - if that is all it is, I would order mine today. I've been holding off on ordering mine because of all these reboot/lockup issues and since I don't get TVGOS in my area, if that is what would be causing the problem, then I should be good to go.

- I wish it was that simple, but I'm guessing it probably isn't.

What's frustrating is Dish has known about these issues for over a year and still hasn't done anything to fix them. Don't tell me the beta testers didn't have problems, we all know they did but just kept their mouth zipped about it.

The bigger question is if they didn't fix it for almost a year before the final release what makes you think they will (or even can) fix it now? is the unit functional and dependable even with all the reboot issues? Would you trust your "must have" recordings to be saved consistently with the current issues? Is the unit basically decent and the reboots are a minor annoyance, or do the reboots kill most of the functionally?

Unless you have been in a beta program - you don't know what you're talking about (testers keeping mouths shut, etc.). And just because beta testers report a problem, doesn't mean it will be fixed immediately, or at all.

As in most things electronic, there are good units out there and bad units. If you are having problems with reboots - talk to them to get it taken care of. I'm not having problems with reboots and I would trust it . If you are having reboot problems - I can understand why you wouldn't. I think the unit is decent, maybe not perfect, but "good enough" if you aren't having the reboots. I suspect that the reboot problems are hardware related, not software.

What's frustrating is Dish has known about these issues for over a year and still hasn't done anything to fix them. Don't tell me the beta testers didn't have problems, we all know they did but just kept their mouth zipped about it.

The bigger question is if they didn't fix it for almost a year before the final release what makes you think they will (or even can) fix it now? is the unit functional and dependable even with all the reboot issues? Would you trust your "must have" recordings to be saved consistently with the current issues? Is the unit basically decent and the reboots are a minor annoyance, or do the reboots kill most of the functionally?


Servicetech571,

Seems your concerns are trusting the unit to do "must-have" recordings, the thing is it seems there is no way to ascertain "when" the unit will lock up /reboot /malfunction.

On Dish "fixing" the problem- You can count on Dish using the old standby line of " The problem is only affecting a small percentage of our customers".

On Dish knowing of the reboot /crashing problems for a year, and releasing the product ANYWAYS...

Who here really thinks that Dish, the same company that pushed the problematic DTVPal /TR-40CRA units to market.....is going to come out with a firmware update that will magically fix everything in the next month or so...



.

.....is going to come out with a firmware update that will magically fix everything in the next month or so...

I am HOPING that Dish does respond with acknowlegement (or at least a firmware fix) quickly. It would be stupidity in the extreme if they don't get this taken care of post haste.

Seriously, I am ready to buy NOW. I've got the money and I really want the product...I'm only waiting for it to have at least the veneer of stability.

How else, btw, does Dish expect to make any money on this unit? This thread is the only place I've been able to quickly find (via Google) any meaningful info on the unit. If they don't get good advertising here then they would appear to have made the decision just to let the DTVPal DVR rot.

Anyone else anticipating some interesting HD OTA DVR info coming out of CES 2009?

I now believe I'm receiving TVGOS information but it's not what I expected. The DVR guide now shows different information than what my Sony TV displays using PSIP program information. Previously the information was exactly the same indicating PSIP only.

The problem is the TVGOS is incomplete, often showing less information than the PSIP shows. For example, I just checked my PBS station. The Sony shows the program name and a program description. The DVR shows the program name and "No Information Available" for the description. For some channels it is the opposite.

It would be easy to conclude right now that the TVGOS information is very incomplete but I'm not sure it is possible to know where to assign the blame. Wherever the problem lies, I'm disappointed to not have a complete guide for days into the future.

pabeader...are you getting that Déjà vu feeling yet?

After having menu>setup>updates set to "disable" for the past week or so and still experiencing periodic lock ups/reboots (twice just trying to make it through the 30-minute evening news this weekend), I enabled the updates again just to see if I'd notice a difference (I too am leaning away from the theory that the lock up/reboot issues are tied to the updates setting). So far, I haven't used it enough to see any difference, except soon after changing the setting I did get a random pop up message indicating that the ethernet connection had been lost (has not been plugged in since intial setup and firmware upgrade).

In spite of these problems, I still do not regret my purchase. However, I don't think that I will be ordering more for other TV's in my home or recommending the box to others until Dish gets these problems resolved. I think that those of us that are into this type of thing can put up with some of the annoyances temporarily until new firmware resolves these issues but that most consumers would not have the patience to deal with this box.

Unless you have been in a beta program - you don't know what you're talking about (testers keeping mouths shut, etc.). And just because beta testers report a problem, doesn't mean it will be fixed immediately, or at all.

As in most things electronic, there are good units out there and bad units. If you are having problems with reboots - talk to them to get it taken care of. I'm not having problems with reboots and I would trust it . If you are having reboot problems - I can understand why you wouldn't. I think the unit is decent, maybe not perfect, but "good enough" if you aren't having the reboots. I suspect that the reboot problems are hardware related, not software.

I agree with you there are "good" and bad units.

Some units getting parts that are "perfect"- others having marginal parts... Those with marginal parts of course being more problematic.

What concerns me is reports of the DTVPal DVR "rebooting" with those reports (persons have said) being from a time-frame of many months (10-12 months??) before product was released to production for retail distribution.

NOTE: I have not been following the DTVPal DVR for the past year- So if someone has info on the history of the rebooting issue, issues affecting the units please post the details.



PS: RE: "Beta testers report a problem, doesn't mean it will be fixed immediately, or at all."...

Why even have beta testers!!!, Just use customers instead!
(Just make sure you don't put a 1-year warranty on the product)

.

I just posted to Scott in the satelliteguys.us forum under the CES2009 link asking him to bust some Dish ass about all the problems, tech support, sales support, etc. Why don't you guys pile on also?

I suspect that the reboot problems are hardware related, not software.Scooper, that is what I'm afraid of. Everyone is quick to think it is a software issue that can be fixed by an update at some point. I fear it may be a case of either non-existent QC by a chinese manufacturer or a design with an under-powered CPU. For my usage patterns, not being able to reliably record and simultaneously watch without suffering a system failure not only negates the value of dual tuners, it totally negates the value of a DVR in the first place.

Unfortunately, we can't yet buy these from walmart with a 90 day return policy so people could keep taking them back until they get one that works. From what I'm seeing Dish is not yet being very responsive. Call it early growing pains with the product but, when coupled with the pitiful 90 day warranty that started on the date the order was placed, many early adopters with defective boxes could find themselves in the lurch.

Because of the many problems I had with the Pal CECB and Dish Networks total lack of support without my turning into the #!%&* from h.e. double hockey sticks...in fact it is continuing as we speak...I really feel for those of you that are having problems.
But...and not trying to rub anyone's nose in it, I have a perfectly working unit and I really do like it. I have had no lockup/reboots except for the FW update, and I have used every function of the box....it has not failed once. So it CAN be a good purchase.
I am also beginning to believe that some of these issues will go away after the transition as they look so much like the Pal CECB's first reports and mostly seem to revolve around guide downloads (be it PSIP or TVGOS I do not know), and, possibly, the fact that the DTV broadcast portion of any given station is still a "work in progress." Face it, they sometimes drop the signal for anywhere from seconds to days (missed and skipped recordings anyone), and we all know the time, PSIP data, and VBI masking are NOT generally at the top of the must fix now list for many of them. And then there is the question of the digital TVGOS rollout and the quality/completeness of that.
The transition brings with it, I would assume since I am not a pro in this field, a deadline for meeting the specification that will, hopefully, help those out there struggling with this DVR and other equipment.

Best of luck to all of you (you are, for the most part ;) a great group of people), and may there be better days ahead for all of us.

These lock ups do sound a lot like an issue many of Sony DHG-HDD250/500 owners were experiencing. There was a version of the TVGOS software (which is an OTA update) that would cause problems / lock ups when you were recording one show with the unit off and then tried to chase play that show. The unit would freeze / lock up until the original recording was over. A software update from TVGOS fixed the issue.

Just a thought...I haven't seen any of these issues, but haven't tried chase play yet either.

FWIW, I see the same thing as jlkane with my Pal DVR.

Thanks for corroborating my experience, Joe.

I've tried setting up the DVR with:
- my actual ZIP
- our CBS affiliate's ZIP
- the substitute ZIP listed in the DVR manual for Rochester
- ZIP = 00000

Using our CBS affiliate's ZIP resulted in no improvement of the incomplete TVGOS data I was getting (2 of 5 networks).

Using the substitute ZIP and using all zeroes resulted in NO TVGOS data at all -- just the 8-10 hours of PSIP data I've always had. (In each case I allowed time for an overnight update -- still nothin'.)

Today I entered a ZIP code for downtown Rochester. I'm not expecting any improvement, but I figured I'd try (for completeness' sake).

Jim

These lock ups do sound a lot like an issue many of Sony DHG-HDD250/500 owners were experiencing. There was a version of the TVGOS software (which is an OTA update) that would cause problems / lock ups when you were recording one show with the unit off and then tried to chase play that show. The unit would freeze / lock up until the original recording was over. A software update from TVGOS fixed the issue.

Just a thought...I haven't seen any of these issues, but haven't tried chase play yet either.

You're right on that one. I've had the exact same problems. Still do sometimes. I also have times where Im watching something and by some combination of keystrokes, like FF then play the machine re-boots but not often. Hey, maybe Dish ought to hire the programmers Sony used

Hey i have a newbie question for you. I just bought a new Panasonic HDTV today. I hooked up the DVTPAL DVR to it with an HDMI cable. In the HDTV menu I selected 720p which my TV is and 16:9 aspect ratio and hit ok. It takes the DVR 10 or more seconds to change a channel. My hook up is an antenna in to the DVR, an HDMI to my HDMI 1 input and an analog stereo output from my DVR to my amp (i like prologic II). I can't deal with 10 second channel changes. Any idea?

Enter the channel numer with the number keys and then immediatly hit the "select" button.

So, I'm getting from reading this that most, but not all of you are having reboot/lockup problems..and tech support is not much help.

I have lockup problems with my old Humax HA-100. I have to unplug it for a few seconds.

Just from the casual reader's standpoint it does seem like there is a big flaw in these units that needs to be fixed or their support office will be inundated with returned, if not already.


Do you more experienced types think a software or firmware upgrade will work?

Anyone else anticipating some interesting HD OTA DVR info coming out of CES 2009?

Isn't Netgear's "Powerline Adaptor" (using Intellon technology), that connects household wiring to a router's Ethernet plug, being shown? It would seem to provide an internet connectivity alternative for those of us with DTVPal DVR installations some distance from our computers. My understanding is the adaptors may already be available at Best Buy/Circuit City.

But...and not trying to rub anyone's nose in it, I have a perfectly working unit and I really do like it. I have had no lockup/reboots except for the FW update, and I have used every function of the box....it has not failed once. So it CAN be a good purchase.Can you schedule two events to record at the same time and then, after say 10 min of recording, start watching one of them while it is still recording and skip through commercials -- all without a failure.

I will agree that final judgements should be reserved until well after the analog shut-down -- probably mid-march.

I don't get TVGOS data, as I live in Buffalo, apparently the city technology forgot (I know the rabbitears.com site claims that WIVB in Buffalo is confirmed as broadcasting digital TVGOS, I have no idea where they got that info from as I emailed the director of engineering at WIVB, who responded by saying they are not broadcasting TVGOS, nor do they have plans to in the future).

"...the city technology forgot..." oh that's rich. Thanks for the smile, Erik.

My lurking in the "speculation" thread on this forum succeeded in setting my expecations for TVGOS nice and low -- I understand it to be something of a boondoggle. And I would be un-phased by my partial-TVGOS situation except for the fact that it interlocks with the bug I reported in post #834: Without program data in the guide, you cannot set a manual timer. I imagine that this limits you to setting timers ONLY for programs shown in your PSIP data -- less than 12 hours ahead, if your PSIP data is like mine. That's gotta piss you off big-time, Erik.

Let me say that again, for the benefit of all those who (like me) purchased the DTVPal DVR with the worst-case assumption that they would be content with this VCR-replacement as long as they could set manual timers. The user interface is there, and everything looks dandy ...until you try to set a timer for a timeslot which is not covered by PSIP or TVGOS data. Then you get a bogus error message:
"The selected event is already recording" (A674)

Even with the occasionally-annoying reboots and its other growing pains, this is the bug that (in my opinion) represents the most gross failure of this device to meet my expectations:
No guide data for a program = No manual timer allowed

Setting manual timers -- irrespective of whether the program to be recorded is in the on-screen guide data -- is core functionality of any VCR-replacement; the lack of program data in the guide is indeed the most likely reason a user would choose to set a manual timer. To make the setting of a manual timer in some way *reliant* on there being guide data for the program in question is just a grossly bad implementation choice, as it disables a key feature of the device.

I sent a bug report to E* via e-mail (Tech@echostar.com) on 1/1/09. I received a real (non-form) response from tech support just after midnight on Saturday night/Sunday morning:
Timer scheduling works off of the time set by the guide data brought in by the companies. Due to this, if there is not the correct guide data or if the guide data isn’t present, timers cannot be set because there is no time information for it to build the timers and trigger them. Unfortunately, if the programming providers do not offer the guide data, timers cannot be set.

That response does not acknowledge this failure as a bug, but rather exposes it as a fundamental design flaw. Personally, I find that hard to believe, and I don't know how much credence to attach to a message from a support tech working the late-night holiday weekend shift. I have pushed back on the tech to escalate the issue to engineering.

This remains my biggest long-term concern with this otherwise-promising device. If any other readers share this concern, please consider piling on via e-mail to Tech@echostar.com. Or phone calls to E* if you have that kind of patience.

Jim

Unfortunately, we can't yet buy these from walmart with a 90 day return policy .
Only 30 day return policy here now
Joe

Without program data in the guide, you cannot set a manual timer. I imagine that this limits you to setting timers ONLY for programs shown in your PSIP data -- less than 12 hours ahead, if your PSIP data is like mine.

That is odd, since with the similar DTVPal CECB, when the PSIP based guide shows "no information",
a manual timer can be set successfully for more than 12 hours out.

I am HOPING that Dish does respond with acknowledgment (or at least a firmware fix) quickly. It would be stupidity in the extreme if they don't get this taken care of post haste.

Seriously, I am ready to buy NOW. I've got the money and I really want the product...I'm only waiting for it to have at least the veneer of stability.

Anyone else anticipating some interesting HD OTA DVR info coming out of CES 2009?

RE: Anyone else anticipating some interesting HD OTA DVR info coming out of CES 2009?

I think the manufacturers would be fools to ignore those millions upon millions, upon millions of OTA persons due to the digital transition that have VCR's that will be looking for replacements /to upgrade.
(Read that as hard-drive based recorders- there are hardly any choices in the US market now of units that don't require a reoccurring monthly bill.)

Additionally there are tons of persons out there that have HD-Ready Tv's, projectors, etc san's a HD tuner that are looking for options, and then there are persons with HD TV's with tuners from a couple of years ago, or persons with current production HD tv's that are looking for options.


Join date Nov 2003, Posts: 23
Isn't Netgear's "Powerline Adaptor" (using Intellon technology), that connects household wiring to a router's Ethernet plug, being shown? It would seem to provide an internet connectivity alternative for those of us with DTVPal DVR installations some distance from our computers. My understanding is they may already be available at Best Buy/Circuit City.

Simple Google search shows the Netgear Powerline adaptor is shipping.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/17/netgears-hdxb111-xavb101-powerline-adapters-now-shipping/

When Drlink was asking if anyone was anticipating interesting HD OTA DVR info coming out of CES-2009 he, like countless others (myself included) are hoping that there will be similar like units from other manufacturers, for those of us who do not want to be tied to a reoccurring monthly bill.


.

I'm new to digital TV -- an OTA DVR was the key to my migration strategy -- so this question goes to those with more experience with the technology and with other receivers:

I live close to my area's main cluster of broadcasting towers, so I'm very satisfied with my digital reception and picture quality ...with one exception:
one station (only ABC) is plagued with audio hiccups. Sometimes as often as every 30 seconds -- no, it's not rigidly periodic -- the audio drops out for a syllable or two. Sometimes there's a simultaneous video hiccup, but mostly it's an audio problem. It's distracting at best; at worst you miss a key word in dramatic dialog. It's definitely in the reception -- you hear it in live TV or recorded -- not an artifact of the recording/playback process.

It's definitely an artifact of the DTVPal DVR's receiver, in combination with our ABC signal. My wife and I simultaneously monitored reception through the DTVPal DVR and through a CECB in another room, observing plenty of hiccups in the DVR's reception and none in that of the (Zenith) CECB. Perhaps not coincidentally, the hiccup-y ABC station shows the highest signal strength of our networks: all are in the 90s, but ABC is consistently 96-ish.

So (finally) the questions:
- Has anyone else observed unusual audio hiccups in the DTVPal DVR?
- If so, does it correlate with high signal strength? (Is there any possibility that I'm swamping the receiver and need to attenuate that a bit? If so, how?)

Thanks in advance for your wisdom.

Jim

What concerns me is reports of the DTVPal DVR "rebooting" with those reports (persons have said) being from a time-frame of many months (10-12 months??) before product was released to production for retail distribution.

This product was released just before Christmas 2008.

Please supply the source of reports you heard of being from (10-12 months ago) regarding "rebooting" problems.

I'm new to digital TV -- an OTA DVR was the key to my migration strategy -- so this question goes to those with more experience with the technology and with other receivers:

I live close to my area's main cluster of broadcasting towers, so I'm very satisfied with my digital reception and picture quality ...with one exception:
one station (only ABC) is plagued with audio hiccups. Sometimes as often as every 30 seconds -- no, it's not rigidly periodic -- the audio drops out for a syllable or two. Sometimes there's a simultaneous video hiccup, but mostly it's an audio problem. It's distracting at best; at worst you miss a key word in dramatic dialog. It's definitely in the reception -- you hear it in live TV or recorded -- not an artifact of the recording/playback process.

It's definitely an artifact of the DTVPal DVR's receiver, in combination with our ABC signal. My wife and I simultaneously monitored reception through the DTVPal DVR and through a CECB in another room, observing plenty of hiccups in the DVR's reception and none in that of the (Zenith) CECB. Perhaps not coincidentally, the hiccup-y ABC station shows the highest signal strength of our networks: all are in the 90s, but ABC is consistently 96-ish.

So (finally) the questions:
- Has anyone else observed unusual audio hiccups in the DTVPal DVR?
- If so, does it correlate with high signal strength? (Is there any possibility that I'm swamping the receiver and need to attenuate that a bit? If so, how?)

Thanks in advance for your wisdom.

Jim

You might want to check out this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1085112) you may have too strong a signal.

RE: Anyone else anticipating some interesting HD OTA DVR info coming out of CES 2009?

I think the manufacturers would be fools to ignore those millions upon millions, upon millions of OTA persons due to the digital transition that have VCR's that will be looking for replacements /to upgrade.
(Read that as hard-drive based recorders- there are hardly any choices in the US market now of units that don't require a reoccurring monthly bill.)

Additionally there are tons of persons out there that have HD-Ready Tv's, projectors, etc san's a HD tuner that are looking for options, and then there are persons with HD TV's with tuners from a couple of years ago, or persons with current production HD tv's that are looking for options.
...
I'm hoping for , but not expecting HD OTA DVR news. I agree that there should be a decent market for such devices, but ....

Thanks to sivartk for the reply and excellent link in Post #1062.

(I probably should NOT have offered the hint about attenuation, though, in case others might know of other potential causes.)

Jim

- Has anyone else observed unusual audio hiccups in the DTVPal DVR?
I do not yet have the Pal DVR but I have observed similar hiccups on several stations at different times. I keep in touch with the local station engineers and can tell you that they have quite a balancing act trying to get their digital signals to work properly. Mostly they are flying by the seat of their pants, so to speak, and occasionally warts like this will appear. I usually give them a heads up if a new problem appears and either they know about it or thank me and get on it. Have you talked to engineering at your local ABC station to let them know this is happening? And yes, sometimes the warts depend on the specific converter box. For a while the Channel Master wouldn't receive video from CBS, only audio! Ended up being a bug in the CM. I'm hoping that things settle down after analog gets cut off and they can devote all their attention to digital.

Even with the occasionally-annoying reboots and its other growing pains, this is the bug that (in my opinion) represents the most gross failure of this device to meet my expectations:
No guide data for a program = No manual timer allowed

Setting manual timers -- irrespective of whether the program to be recorded is in the on-screen guide data -- is core functionality of any VCR-replacement; the lack of program data in the guide is indeed the most likely reason a user would choose to set a manual timer. To make the setting of a manual timer in some way *reliant* on there being guide data for the program in question is just a grossly bad implementation choice, as it disables a key feature of the device.

Jim

Maybe I'm missing something in what you're saying but the very first recording I made was to set up the manual timer for a program for which there was no guide data. It recorded fine. Of course the station had to be scanned in first to be recognized. In fact for that test, I recorded two programs at the same time, one from the guide, and one without the guide.

...
I don't have any experience with TVGOS with any other devices. Perhaps someone can comment regarding the completeness of TVGOS data when viewed on devices that are known to be reading the data?
The analog TVGOS provides data for channels you did not even know existed both OTA and cable + satellite channels. It has little relation to what channels you can recieve which is why I believe that even though we are seeing the TV Guide logo the only data being displayed is PSIP. Again based on the analog way of doing things the data is sent in blocks for a few days at a time. What I am seeing looks a lot like PSIP because the data is the same as my TV gets, only more days for some channels. Also after I tune to a channel I get the data for that channel just like PSIP. TVGOS sends data for everything.

I don't agree with item 3 in the original post.

The analog TVGOS provides data for channels you did not even know existed both OTA and cable + satellite channels. It has little relation to what channels you can recieve which is why I believe that even though we are seeing the TV Guide logo the only data being displayed is PSIP.People are receiving TVGOS because the program descriptions in the guide differ from those received via PSIP with a TV's built-in tuner.

That said, it is also clear that the information currently available with digital TVGOS is not always as comprehensive as the information previously available with analog TVGOS.

This product was released just before Christmas 2008.

Please supply the source of reports you heard of being from (10-12 months ago) regarding "rebooting" problems.

Source? In this or the pre-speculation thread I believe it had leaked out of pre-production versions rebooting. Several posters saying it was a "known" issue.

If not (the problems have just started appearing- and did not show up in Beta-testing.. It gives me hope that the problems are being caused by PRODUCTION units with marginal HARDWARE.

PS: If it is a case that the current problems have just "appeared", it makes it all that more important that a standardized bug reporting format can be agreed upon with persons posting their units ID Strings... so a pattern can be established...

With the above said- I'm assuming that since the DTVPal DVR has a Ethernet port- that maybe the programmers put in a bug reporting tool?

I'd set it up so when unit reboots, crashes /malfunctions:

Data is transmitted to engineering /bug dept, from that data a "custom" firmware file is created /sent back to that unit with commands to the unit to do extensive "self-testing".. with a firmware file that varies operating parameters. (to try to make unit crash-try various ideas to make units stable)
If unit reports back problem fixed- a database is made of what "works", with a standardized firmware file coming from that.
If not the process is repeated to ascertain which factory , suppliers were used on the problematic units.

.

Maybe I'm missing something in what you're saying but the very first recording I made was to set up the manual timer for a program for which there was no guide data. It recorded fine.

You understand me correctly, so something must account for the differing user experience we are having.

Tell me, please, whether you have upgraded the firmware to F202.

Jim

...
- he told me that Macrovision provides the TVGOS box and feeds it the data over the Internet;
...

I think that is a good data point!

... wanted me to call Dish. Which I did. But that seemed pretty useless. I think I'll call Macrovision again this week and try to talk with an engineer ...

There seems to be a growing consensus that Dish is useless, try Echostar and see what they say.

Can you schedule two events to record at the same time and then, after say 10 min of recording, start watching one of them while it is still recording and skip through commercials -- all without a failure.

I will agree that final judgements should be reserved until well after the analog shut-down -- probably mid-march.

I can't do this with my unit. I love to time shift 20 min on a 1 hour program. I can get a lot done in that 20 min. and still be caught up at the end by skipping the commercials. I love my tivo, maybe I should of went hd tivo route, $250 vs $700. I'm living with the reboots. It's 30 seconds of lost programing. The unit will pick up where it left off. Record it and watch it later, no problem what so ever.

That is odd, since with the similar DTVPal CECB, when the PSIP based guide shows "no information",
a manual timer can be set successfully for more than 12 hours out.

Strange but true. Once something shows up in the guide you can schedule it to repeat even though the next time has no data but no data in the current slot, no seta timer.:(

There are a lot of ideas on what causes and how to prevent the reboots and for every theory there seems to be a counter example.

I liked the multitasking idea but I have recorded two shows at the same time with no problem (several times). Last night I had a reboot while just watching live TV and this has happened before.


Could the reboots have anything to do with the number of event timers set? I went for a while with no problems and lately have had about two reboots a day. Perhaps because I have added more events, perhaps not.
Eariler one of the brave souls who opened their box said the SATA cable was loose. Could this be the problem? I don't have any indication of disk errors or exceptions on the counters page.
Does support for TVGOS enabled devices have any relation to the reboot problem? In other words have those who have not had any reboots tried to enable support for a TVGOS enabled device? Has anyone who has a reboot problem not tried to enable support for a TVGOS enabled device?

I suspect that the reboot problems are hardware related, not software.I, too, am in the camp that thinks the reboots are more likely to be a hardware issue. Why? Because I have had two units in my setup: my brother's (chapelrun's) rebooted sometimes and mine does not. Unfortunately, my testing was not conclusive, due to various differences between the two boxes, including firmware differences, etc.

What may make sense would be to set up these two boxes in my setup with *IDENTICAL* conditions for a week or so and see what happens. We could update my firmware to F202 to match his and I could drive them both from a high-quality power splitter rated up to 2.3 GHz and identical cables. I could even connect them both to my television to different HDMI inputs using identical cables. Then we could reformat the hard drives and reset anything else in the unit, followed by scheduling identical recordings. The only remaining difference would be that they would have to be programmed to respond to different remotes and we could not view both outputs simultaneously. Still, perhaps we could eliminate many possibilities this way or even might find something.

Thoughts on this? chapelrun?

Reg

P.S. On second thought, perhaps it would be good to run mine with the F201 firmware for the first part of the testing...

I'm wondering how many with the reboot problem got cold boxes from UPS and didn't wait for them to warm up before setting them up...mine sat in the house for 12 hours.
Or, did any of you move the box after setup while it was still plugged in?

I'm wondering how many with the reboot problem got cold boxes from UPS and didn't wait for them to warm up before setting them up...mine sat in the house for 12 hours.
Or, did any of you move the box after setup while it was still plugged in?

Mine was delivered December 24th, near Orlando Florida. Outside temperature was 73 F. The box has not been moved since powering up. My initial problems have not reappeared since disabling updates & entering zip code zeroes (subsequent to setup wizard entries), with the following exception: As an experiment about 5 days ago, I re-entered my actual zip code and experienced a reboot within 20 minutes, after which I re-entered zeroes -- with no reboots since. (When I reconnected the power cord today to a better surge protector, it took about 20 minutes to display the TV Guide logo.) While my fix probably doesn't address the root cause of my problem, I'm happy the symptom of the problem appears to have gone away on my box.

On paper, the dtvpal-dvr unit looks like a near-perfect "missing link" for an OTA-only HD user like me.

I would buy one of these, if it were not for the numerous reports of unexplained reboots and lockups, which certainly suggest that the unit is actually not ready for commercial release.

90 day warranty, no returns policy!?! Seems fishy to me.

Anybody else getting the impression that the early adopters, i.e., folks posting on this list, are serving as beta testers for dtvpal dvr?

Two questions for you'all (speculations welcome!):

1) Given that postings to this list are not necessarily a representative sample of all users, does anybody have a sense of "What fraction of all users are/are not experiencing recurring & unexplained reboots & lockups"?

2b) What might be a reasonable time frame to expect that some combination of in-factory tweaks/upgrades will lead to significant reductions in the problem of reboots & lockups?

2c) Will imporvements in downloadable firmware provide the fix, or will they appear in as a new model (e.g., "dtvpal-plus dvr")?

cheers,
dc

I am disappointed that you cannot choose to record in SD instead of HD since HD takes up so much space. Instead, shows are recorded in whatever format they are broadcast in. I understand now why others are already talking about upgrading the size of the hard drive since you can only save 30 hours of programming that was recorded in high def, and it seems like most of what I am recording is broadcast in high def. I tend to record movies that I may save for a while before viewing and deleting. Still, this DVR is the best option I have seen for after the switch to fully digital broadcasting.

Unfortunately this really isn't possible. Any modern DVR receiving a digital signal just records the signal as it receives it and doesn't do any sort or reencoding. These boxes simply don't have the dedicated hardware or horsepower to down-convert and recompress the signal.

Depending on what your local channel broadcasts you may have options tho. Some of the channels in my area have 2 sub-channels with 1 showing the HD signal and the other showing a SD signal. Obviously setting it up to record the correct sub-channel will get you the SD version.

Other than that it has been shown that at least 500gb hd works and you could look into archiving to DVD for example by the composite output to a dvd burner.

I'm wondering how many with the reboot problem got cold boxes from UPS and didn't wait for them to warm up before setting them up...mine sat in the house for 12 hours.
Or, did any of you move the box after setup while it was still plugged in?

It was definately chilly when it was delivered - my wife brought it in, after I got home at midnight (it had about 5 hours to get up to temp from the 40's or 50's), I set it up.

I'm definately guilty of moving it while plugged in - but I'm a PC professional and know the limits you can take with a powered on / running harddrive (said limits - low G loads, don't stress cables, don't bang it on anything).

That response does not acknowledge this failure as a bug, but rather exposes it as a fundamental design flaw

A bug is when something doesn't work the way the designer envisioned. A design flaw is when your "vison" disagrees with that of the designer.

You understand me correctly, so something must account for the differing user experience we are having.

Tell me, please, whether you have upgraded the firmware to F202.

Jim

I have not upgraded. I went through it again. Press Menu, then Timers: Create: Select channel: Next: Enter timing parameters: Done.

I can't imagine this not working for anyone.

I think the manufacturers would be fools to ignore those millions upon millions, upon millions of OTA persons due to the digital transition that have VCR's that will be looking for replacements /to upgrade

A few weeks ago JVC announced they were ceasing the production of the last stand alone VCR available in the USA. Last week the last company still shipping VCR tapes announced they had shipped the last tapes that were available and there would be no more. Come Feb 17 or not, a lot of VCR owners are going to have to do something.

What's frustrating is Dish has known about these issues for over a year and still hasn't done anything to fix them. Don't tell me the beta testers didn't have problems, we all know they did but just kept their mouth zipped about it.

The bigger question is if they didn't fix it for almost a year before the final release what makes you think they will (or even can) fix it now? is the unit functional and dependable even with all the reboot issues? Would you trust your "must have" recordings to be saved consistently with the current issues? Is the unit basically decent and the reboots are a minor annoyance, or do the reboots kill most of the functionally?

a year?? I wish!! more like 2 months.

Isn't Netgear's "Powerline Adaptor" (using Intellon technology), that connects household wiring to a router's Ethernet plug, being shown? It would seem to provide an internet connectivity alternative for those of us with DTVPal DVR installations some distance from our computers. My understanding is the adaptors may already be available at Best Buy/Circuit City.

I got a set of the 200Mbs HD units for my girlfriend this past summer...because I didn't want to rewire her house with Cat5e. They work great!

http://www.netgear.com/Products/PowerlineNetworking/PowerlineEthernetAdapters/HDXB111.aspx

I haven't run a speed test (not likely getting 200Mbs), but performance was good enough to watch HuLu content without dropouts from the network.

Firmware F201TALD-N
Boot strap 1011TALD
I have the program guide update enabled 1:00AM
I have my real zip code entered.
I have it set to my real time zone.
I do have TVGOS
My video memory (VRAM) test is OK.
HD PASS or NOT RUN with 0 error count.
No USB device.
My power cycle count is 10
My exceptions count is 0.

I have been following this thread for days now, I started while waiting for my dvr to get here.

Like so many of you, my unit worked great, at first. Two days after setting it up, I had the first lockup followed minutes later by a reboot. I immediately emailed tech support and after 3 days of emails back and forth, was told to call their 800 number.

After holding for 30 minutes and talking to two different operators, I was disconnected. I called back and got a guy who confessed he really works sales, not tech support and he could only help me by following some trouble shooting guide he had. My problem wasn't on his list. He told me that their hadn't be any reports of my particular problem. I told him that I begged to differ, and told him of this forum and what I had learned here.

While I had him on the line, I asked him about the warranty policy. He confirmed what I had read here, that the 90 days started from the order date. He had to agree with me when I told him that didn't seem right, since the order was placed 11/19 and I didn't get it until 12/29. He talked to his "tech coach" and was told to change my warranty start date to 12/29.

As far as my problem, he said that since the unit is still working, there was nothing he could do. He told me that the next time it locks up, to call them BEFORE doing anything to the unit. The only way that they will send me a replacement unit, is if the one I have isn't working. So I'm waiting for the next lock up.

I am unimpressed by their customer service/tech support so far. We'll see what happens with the next lock up.

But, I thought that some of you would be interested in the ability to get the warranty date changed.

I'll be lurking...

I have not upgraded. I went through it again. Press Menu, then Timers: Create: Select channel: Next: Enter timing parameters: Done.

I can't imagine this not working for anyone.


Anyone else running the original firmware and has the ability to set a timer based recording?

I would hate to think that upgrading to F202 takes features away:(

Do you more experienced types think a software or firmware upgrade will work?

Possibly. I have years of experience with Dish satellite receivers. Eventually they fix serious bugs - just not a fast as you would think they would.

When they rolled out their crazy form of Video-on-demand to the 50x series, it caused serious problems on some users receivers (hard drive errors, crashes, recordings disappearing, events not firing). They happily replaced users with new receivers, but the replacements only had the same problem or worse (Duh! because it was a software problem).

After about 8 months or so, most of the serious problems were fixed. Fortunately I was able to avoid most of the problems because I refused new software updates (at least until they forced an update into my unit - something at least they can't do with the DTVPal DVR if the Ethernet is not connected).

One forced release had the nice feature of updating all set events by hour to compensate for daylight saving time (but it did this every single night). With another, events did not fire at all if you turned off the unit (this bug stayed around another 6 to 9 months - I think, I still leave that receiver just in case, and there has been at least 8 updates since that bug appeared).

A current bug in the software requires me to turn on the receiver during the day (it goes to sleep at night), or the events may not fire that night (looking at the schedule history simply shows "canceled" with some obscure reason I don't remember - it hasn't happen for a while since I been remembering to turn it on).

On my other Dish receiver (a 625), it has recently developed a problem where events appear to fire (schedule history shows "done"), but the event doesn't appear in My Recordings. This happened with two events Friday night (fortunately one was just a backup for the DTVPal DVR, which did successfully fire).

What's frustrating is Dish has known about these issues for over a year and still hasn't done anything to fix them. Don't tell me the beta testers didn't have problems, we all know they did but just kept their mouth zipped about it.

The bigger question is if they didn't fix it for almost a year before the final release what makes you think they will (or even can) fix it now? is the unit functional and dependable even with all the reboot issues? Would you trust your "must have" recordings to be saved consistently with the current issues? Is the unit basically decent and the reboots are a minor annoyance, or do the reboots kill most of the functionally?

a year?? I wish!! more like 2 months.

2 months?
How do you figure?
First post stating a production unit arriving in this thread was Dec 22,2008 and today's date is Jan 05,2009.

Regardless this product has been in development since before Jan-2008 when the unit was announced at CES 2008 makes "the design", slightly MORE than a year old.

Jan 7, 2008=Unit announced @ CES 2008
http://ces.cnet.com/8301-13855_1-9840910-67.html

Nov 19, 2008=Available for pre-order starting dtvpal.com
Units to start shipping in Dec.

Dec 22, 2008=First post stating a production unit arriving.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15357290#post15357290

Jan 05, 2009, today's date.



.

I got a set of the 200Mbs HD units for my girlfriend this past summer...because I didn't want to rewire here house with Cat5e. They work great!

http://www.netgear.com/Products/PowerlineNetworking/PowerlineEthernetAdapters/HDXB111.aspx

Works great at about 1/4 the speed of Cat5e. (in a 100mbps network). Try and stream a 720p or 1080i video. If you aren't on the same circuit, good luck.

(Thus the reason I hardwired a couple of rooms in my house after trying that device)

Thoughts on this? chapelrun?

Reg

P.S. On second thought, perhaps it would be good to run mine with the F201 firmware for the first part of the testing...

You're thinking like a first rate tester. Definitely run the test with one on F201 and one on F202. Then upgrade the first one to F202 and repeat the test. This may indicate differences in the two software versions, and/or the two different unit's hardware. Let us know the results.

Maybe I'm missing something in what you're saying but the very first recording I made was to set up the manual timer for a program for which there was no guide data. It recorded fine. Of course the station had to be scanned in first to be recognized. In fact for that test, I recorded two programs at the same time, one from the guide, and one without the guide.

Setting up manual timers seems to be hit or miss. I believe I was able to successfully set one up with no guide data one time, but not another.

I receive channels from two areas. One trick I used was to set from the weaker of two channels with guide data, then switch the channel to the stronger channel with no guide data. This worked one time and another time did not. (I'm on F202.)

Anyone else running the original firmware and has the ability to set a timer based recording?

I would hate to think that upgrading to F202 takes features away:(
I am and I can. :)

I think the manufacturers would be fools to ignore those millions upon millions, upon millions of OTA persons due to the digital transition that have VCR's that will be looking for replacements /to upgrade.
(Read that as hard-drive based recorders- there are hardly any choices in the US market now of units that don't require a reoccurring monthly bill.)As far as SD recorders with hard drives, even apart from the US Philips and Magnavox models with digital tuners, there are a bunch of Canadian and International models available here new (Pioneer, Panasonic, Sony, etc.) if you know where to look. Even though they might only have NTSC (or PAL) tuners, they can be paired with an inexpensive CECB with timers or channel-changing ability.

Where there's a will there's a way.

Anyone else running the original firmware and has the ability to set a timer based recording?

I would hate to think that upgrading to F202 takes features away:(

Yes, I have the original firmware and can set the timers just fine (manual timer, that is, on a station with no guide data).

I'm always leery with firmware upgrades when I don't know what they do. Hence the saying, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.' Now if they can show me functionality changes that I would like, then I will otherwise I wait until I see the problem that the firmware fixes.

Originally Posted by cavemaster:
Anyone else running the original firmware and has the ability to set a timer based recording?

Just to be clear:
The issue is setting a timer-based recording for a timeslot that displays "No Information Available" (too far in the future for PSIP and not supplied (for whatever reason) by TVGOS).

I am perfectly able to set manual timers for timeslots that show program data, but I get a bogus error when I attempt to set a manual timer for timeslots without guide data.

Originally Posted by cavemaster:
I would hate to think that upgrading to F202 takes features away.

My speculation -- okay... my hope! -- was that upgrading to F202 would crush the bug I'm suffering, not remove a feature. (Calaveras crushed that hope with Post #1082. Truth is a harsh mistress.)

Originally Posted by Calaversas:
I went through it again. Press Menu, then Timers: Create: Select channel: Next: Enter timing parameters: Done.

I can't imagine this not working for anyone.

Yeah, I was pretty blown away by it, too. Even more so by Tech Support's assertion that "...if the programming providers do not offer the guide data, timers cannot be set." But I've repeated my efforts to set manual timers MANY times, and the results are invariable:
- every attempt to set a manual timer succeeds if there is guide data for the program in question
- lacking guide data, every attempt to set a timer fails

I've tried workarounds like setting a timer for the same timeslot in question on a channel with guide data and then editing the timer to change the channel to one with no guide data. No data? No timer ...every time.

At this point, I'm powerless to explain the differences in our user experience.

If anyone else with incomplete guide data would like to share his or her experience with this scenario, I'm all ears.

And I will note in closing that (on my machine, at least) this same bug means that I can't set a manual timer for a timeslot out beyond the one week covered by TVGOS at its best. Is that consistent with other folks' experience? Are other folks satisfied with that limitation? I kinda hate it!

Jim

Here is what I did.

DVR button
Daily Timers
Timers
Create
Type: DVR
Repeat: Once
Channel: Channel that doesn't have data beyond today
Next
Set timer for 1/19 10:00 PM 30 minutes
Done

Worked no problems on FW 201.

I'll leave it programmed to see if it will record the news 2 weeks from today.

I had been taking the path Menu => Timers. I took sivartk's proven path (DVR Button => Daily Schedule => Timers) ...but got the same failure I always get. What the (heck)?!?

Jim

I had been taking the path Menu => Timers. I took sivartk's proven path (DVR Button => Daily Schedule => Timers) ...but got the same failure I always get. What the (heck)?!?

Jim

Are you getting anything from TVGOS? I get a couple of channels with no data (which I used for testing), but the rest are populated.

I ask this because I wonder if this device is like the Sony and must get the official clock time from the TVGOS feed. Without that, you can't program the Sony. I wonder since you are only getting 12 hours of PSIP data that it can't see any time for that channel beyond 12 hours or so....

Maybe you need the official TVGOS time in order to set timers beyond the PSIP data??? :confused:

Are you getting anything from TVGOS? I get a couple of channels with no data (which I used for testing), but the rest are populated.

<snip>

Maybe you need the official TVGOS time in order to set timers beyond the PSIP data??? :confused:

Yes. I get a week's data on 2 of our five stations ...and the red TVGuide logo. On the remaining 3 stations, I get only 8-12 hours data.

Jim

P.S.
Thanks for being persistently helpful.

Yes. I get a week's data on 2 of our five stations ...and the red TVGuide logo. On the remaining 3 stations, I get only 8-12 hours data.

Jim

P.S.
Thanks for being persistently helpful.

No problem, the only time I could reproduce your error is if there was truly a conflict (I tried a manual timer on a Monday at 7PM when both of my tuners are already in use).

I have no idea why it works for me and not you....

Hello everyone,

New member here. I have the DTVPal DVR, and have not had any of the locking/rebooting issues. [...] How many folks who are having the reboot/locking issues don't get TVGOS? Could echostar's botched implementation of TVGOS be causing the reboot issues?

Thanks,

Erik

For what it's worth, I haven't had any reboot issues either and also live in an area with no TVGOS service available. I did update the firmware on day 1 and then unplugged the ethernet after the update. I also disabled the update timer.

Andrew

Receiver ID R18800051xxx-xx
Software Version F202TALD-N
Bootstrap Version 1011TALD
Processor ID 29242913

Here is what I did.

DVR button
Daily Timers
Timers
Create
Type: DVR
Repeat: Once
Channel: Channel that doesn't have data beyond today
Next
Set timer for 1/19 10:00 PM 30 minutes
Done

Worked no problems on FW 201.

I'll leave it programmed to see if it will record the news 2 weeks from today.

This works for me too, and my guide (PSIP only) doesn't show any data past 1/12, and all the 1/12 data is "No Information Available."

(Menu button -> Timers (6) -> Create -> rest is same as above)

Andrew

Receiver ID R18800051xxx-xx
Software Version F202TALD-N
Bootstrap Version 1011TALD
Processor ID 29242913

Yesterday and today when watching a recorded football game, I had several occasions when it seemed my Skip FWD button was advancing ~2 minutes instead of the normal 30 seconds. I'm guessing it might be by remote, but I'm not sure as my TV remote programmed with the Dish DVR code will do just about everything except the 30 skip.

Anyone else have any such behavior?

Sunday it was recording that was fully completed recording. Today I was time shifting through the program before it was over (but it was a programmed event).

Andrew

Receiver ID R18800051xxx-xx
Software Version F202TALD-N
Bootstrap Version 1011TALD
Processor ID 29242913

J...

And I will note in closing that (on my machine, at least) this same bug means that I can't set a manual timer for a timeslot out beyond the one week covered by TVGOS at its best....

Jim

I think this was noted previously, but if I try to set up a timer >14 days out, it defaulted back to +14 days (i.e. 1/19). As I mentioned a couple of posts ago, my PSIP guide data only goes through the 12th, so I can set a timer for beyond the time frame covered by my (PSIP) guide data.

Andrew

Receiver ID R18800051xxx-xx
Software Version F202TALD-N
Bootstrap Version 1011TALD
Processor ID 29242913

Here's something I haven't seen anyone mention. I recorded two programs back to back on the same channel. When I started each recording I got a message saying the program was missing parts due to signal loss. That's not an unexpected condition since I'm in a fringe area with multipath problems and channel dropouts do happen. I was curious to see how the DVR would handle this. But when I played each program back there was no hint of signal loss. I don't know why the message was displayed.

I also experienced my first freeze after being operational for a week. I had to unplug the unit.

For those of you following the reboot / lockup issues, an update:

Based on some of the suggestions here (from ProsPops and others), yesterday I set the update to DISABLE and set the zip code to 00000. I had one reboot thereafter, and then none for about a day. (I speculated that the new settings might not have taken effect until it rebooted, and then it was better).

There was some more discussion on this topic today on here, suggesting that perhaps the zip code didn't matter, and that only the disabling of the software update was needed to prevent reboots / lockups. So I got greedy and set the zip code back to 95123.

Since then (a few hours ago), I have had one reboot and one black screen lockup that was only recoverable by pulling the plug. Updates are still disabled.

We have to be very careful not to fall into the Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy, but at the very least we can conclude that simply setting the update to DISABLE by itself does not fix the reboot / lockup problem on my unit. There is still some chance that having both the updates disabled and the zip set to 00000 fixes the problem.

I've reset the zip code to 00000 now, and we'll see what happens over the next hours and days...

It's possible that none of these things fixes it...

Please keep us posted.

Well, the bad news is in: With both the updates disabled and the zip set to 00000, problems persist. I've had one more reboot and one more lockup that required pulling the plug to recover. So these settings per se do not solve all reboot/lockup problems.

I do supposedly have a new unit coming from Dish, and when I receive it hopefully I will find it is a luckier unit with no problems.

Some folks have asked whether they should delay or cancel orders because of this flaw. I would say that for an early adopter / tech enthusiast, the reboot/lockup issue is not a fatal annoyance. For a typical grandma, however, it would be a significant annoyance (although in defence of grandmas, I know some that are quite tech-savvy!). If you can figure out which extreme you're closer to, perhaps you'll know what to do. Odds are if you read this forum, you're more of a tech enthusiast.

Do you all feel some sort of disclaimer should be in the first post about these issues? If so, what should it say?

Here is what I did.

DVR button
Daily Timers
Timers
Create
Type: DVR
Repeat: Once
Channel: Channel that doesn't have data beyond today
Next
Set timer for 1/19 10:00 PM 30 minutes
Done

Worked no problems on FW 201.

I'll leave it programmed to see if it will record the news 2 weeks from today.

Same procedure. I get the error. I have F202. :( I have 7 days of TVGOS on most channels.

This appears to be at least one difference between F201 and F202. I suspect the programmers tried to fix a bug related setting events from the guide and broke setting manual events in the process. (Dish programmers are known for breaking things when trying to make fixes.)

In my opinion, not a big problem, just an irritation. I can program for the channel once the PSIP data fills in, I just have to wait less than 12 hours before the event. I'll be testing if I have the reboot problem later today (no reboots so far) by recording two events and watching recorded events at the same time (something I not sure I actually did yet).

Here's something I haven't seen anyone mention. I recorded two programs back to back on the same channel. When I started each recording I got a message saying the program was missing parts due to signal loss. That's not an unexpected condition since I'm in a fringe area with multipath problems and channel dropouts do happen. I was curious to see how the DVR would handle this. But when I played each program back there was no hint of signal loss. I don't know why the message was displayed.

I get this message maybe a third of the time when starting to watch an event. The event has always been intact. The first time freaked me out. Now I just ignore the message.

Dish satellite DVRs have a similar message that comes up, but they come during the event at the missing data (not at the beginning), and that part of the program is always missing, though it usually not that long (occurs when an event was recording during a very heavy thunderstorm).

I'm also at F202 and I can't set a timer out past the time for the latest guide data (PSIP for me). For example if I have any channel that has data out to three days, I can schedule a recording on any channel (regardless of whether that specific channel has guide data or not) for any time in those three days. However if I have that 3 days of guide data and try to set a timer on any channel for 4 days out, I get an error. I'm sure it'd be an easy fix for echostar, given if I set a timer with the timespan I have guide info for and set it up as a recurring (daily or weekly) timer, it schedules them out well past when I have guide info for without problems.

Sounds like fighting the temptation to upgrade firmware has finally paid off! I get to use my timer settings :)

Mainly for Jim Kane:

I downloaded 202 immediately upon receipt of the box. I don't have any problem setting the timer for a "No Information Available" channel. For example, using this procedure:
Menu
Timers
Create
Type: DVR
Repeat: Once
Channel: WROC 8.1 (Kane understands why I chose this)
Next
Set timer for 1/19 10:00 AM 30 minutes
Done

I did the same for WROC on 1/20 at 10PM, and again it was accepted. Thus, I have the same result as sivartk but with F202. So I don't think that's the issue here and have no clue what is. I also have not ever seen a reboot although I'm not using the unit for live TV nor have I had both tuners active simultaneously.

H'm, that's interesting. I thought we found a difference between F201 and F202. Must be something else related to the guide.

2 months? How do you figure? First post stating a production unit arriving in this thread was Dec 22,2008 and today's date is Jan 05,2009.

2 months is how long the beta testers had them. Retail users have had them for about 2 weeks.

So someone within the company must have leaked out the "rebooting" problem that was alleged to have happened 10-12 months ago?
Must have been leaked about the same time as the 2008 CES show. Must have been a disgruntled employee?

Some readers are seeing the date 01-07-08 on the first post in this thread and think most everything in the first post is a year old.
Maybe a clearer statement about adding updates would resolve that misconception.

Can ANYONE tell me why it's a good idea to update the firmware?

....Any fixes? New features? Improves operation?

So many downloaded the new firmware 'just because'.
Others hoped to correct problems.
Guess I'm one of the lucky ones. After two weeks ...
still running original firmware.
Zero problems...no lock ups, no rebooting...etc.

After reading this thread, someone would be scared to death to order one.
I say , go for it. Your only reading problems some are experiencing... others, like myself are 100% happy.

Wonder if there was a poll how many are disappointed and how many are satisfied and problem free.

For those with problems..Sorry for your pain.

Wonder if there was a poll how many are disappointed and how many are satisfied and problem free.


Good idea! Why don't you start an owner's poll?

-phil

Quote:
"Good idea! Why don't you start an owner's poll?"

+1

...I got a message saying the program was missing parts due to signal loss...

I've had that on probably every recording I've done. I expect it actually. I do have some channels that barely come in. The full show is there though. No reboots or freeze.

I have set all twelve of my timers the old fashion 'vcr' way. I have not 'tagged' them in the guide. I also have set padding before and after to zero.

After reading this thread, someone would be scared to death to order one.
I say , go for it. Your only reading problems some are experiencing... others, like myself are 100% happy.Sparky - are you able to record two programs while watching and skipping commercials on a third previously recorded program?

Do you all feel some sort of disclaimer should be in the first post about these issues? If so, what should it say?
Yes, I think having a "known problems" section is must. I would just list the issues with the comment that we don't know how widespread the issues are (without a scientific poll where machines are put through a similar test suite, there's really no objective way to determine this). To maintain the integrity of that first post it's essential that known problems be clearly mentioned - especially those for which there is no known solution (or even acknowledgment from the manufacturer that it's an issue). To me the existence of such a problem would be a determining factor in purchasing the unit.

Good idea! Why don't you start an owner's poll?

-phil

A poll would obviously be lopsided, since the majority here will be those looking for the answer to a problem.

Most users that are problem free and satisfied will be watching TV, and not participate in a poll.

Sparky - are you able to record two programs while watching and skipping commercials on a third previously recorded program?

I'm not Sparky, but I can :)


A simple poll might be in order:
• No reboots/freezes
• Reboots & Freezes

It's is difficult to get an accurate count of pleased and displeased people because the people with problems get the majority of the post, as they should, trying to work through the issue. It looks skewed.

Sparky - are you able to record two programs while watching and skipping commercials on a third previously recorded program?

Can't say that I've tried that....sorry.

I'm not Sparky, but I can :)


A simple poll might be in order:
• No reboots/freezes
• Reboots & Freezes

It's is difficult to get an accurate count of pleased and displeased people because the people with problems get the majority of the post, as they should, trying to work through the issue. It looks skewed.
How about "Reboots or Freezes"

Good idea! Why don't you start an owner's poll?

-phil

I wouldn't know how to do that...really:)

Anyone wanna do this?

Example:

1. I'm 100% happy, no problems

2. I'm for the most part happy

3. Very frustrated and not happy

4. Wish I could get my money back..

Can ANYONE tell me why it's a good idea to update the firmware?

....Any fixes? New features? Improves operation? (...)
No, nobody can. As I said in an earlier post, I personally would only update the fw after it's been posted on the web (and NOT through ethernet) AND the reason for the update is posted as well, like what issues the new fw is supposed to address.

I wouldn't know how to do that...really:)

Anyone wanna do this?

Example:

1. I'm 100% happy, no problems

2. I'm for the most part happy

3. Very frustrated and not happy

4. Wish I could get my money back..Not useful information. Especially since many of the posters with problems go out of their way to say they are still happy with the unit.

I vote for the poll suggestion of the previous poster: a simple poll of "reboot and/or freeze" vs "no reboot and/or freeze". It would also be useful to tie in something that dates the unit in time, such as a "serial #" or a "date received". This could give us a general picture of the relative number of units with problems and how the situation evolves with time.

Another theory on the reboots: I was surfing trying to find information on a Sony laptop that started up and shut down almost immediately. One site said that there were bad capacitors (see below) in the power conditioning circuits that caused it to overheat and shut down to protect itself. It said that there was a software fix for some operating systems, but not Linux. It suggested replacing the caps AND adding a copper plate between the CPU and the heat sink, with appropriate thermal grease.
Some of the accounts of reboots seem to come when we ask the Pal to do a lot of things at the same time, presumably generating heat. We are also advised not to let the Pal get hot (as in an enclosed cabinet). Also, someone said that they had put their Pal on a surge protector and did not have any problems (presumably filtering out any of the power surges any power conditioning capacitors would have captured as heat).
So can anyone experiencing many reboots comment on the thermal environment and/or surge protectors in their setup?
Badcaps - the PC world has been plagued with problems created by bad capacitors produced in Taiwan. Supposed one firm stole the design from another firm, but got it wrong and produced many bad capacitors that were used in many different brands of PC. Maybe the PAL got some of these, but I would think they had been built long after the problem was identified and precautions taken not to use any caps from known bad sources. See http://news.cnet.com/PCs-plagued-by-bad-capacitors/2100-1041_3-5942647.html, which says, in part, "Defective capacitors found in the Dell Optiplex workstations, some Apple iMac G5s, HP xw-series workstations made in 2004 and PCs with the Intel D865GBF motherboard have been found to bulge, pop, leak and crust over, causing video failure and periodic system shutdowns. " The article also says that there have been more recent problems with caps from a Japanese company in Dell computers, so the problem may still be current. Perhaps someone who has cracked a case can take a close look to see if there are any bad caps.
I did have a "freeze" last night, as opposed to a crash. I came home to a recording in progress and the Pal would not respond to the remote until I did a remote-based shut down (green light off, red light on). Then it was fine, as was the show I was recording (incidentally, folks, thanks for telling me about "chasing" a program).

I have looked at these units and through the online manual. Not sure what kind of guide that it has. Just what type of TV guide does this unit use? TVGOS as in the Sony dvrs and such, or is it something else?
Thanks,
Michael

Yes, it uses TVGOS where available, PSIP when TVGOS is not available.

OK, I have a poll at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1105110

Got mine on Christmas Eve. Immediately updated firmware before using it.

No problems at all. Happy with picture quality, recorded multiple things at once, chased replay on recording in progress, etc.

Nashville, TN area. My TV guide data looks good for the most part, TV guide logo shows, only the ABC channel here has issues with No Information Available past 24 hours. Maybe that station isn't giving TV guide the correct information and even TV guide is having to simply harvest the 24 hour PSIP for that one channel?

So again, no reboots or anything but 100% satisfaction here. I'd love to order another one, but afraid my wife would thump me in the head and throw the budget at me after everything we've bought in the last month or so, lol.

Nashville, TN area. My TV guide data looks good for the most part, TV guide logo shows, only the ABC channel here has issues with No Information Available past 24 hours. Maybe that station isn't giving TV guide the correct information and even TV guide is having to simply harvest the 24 hour PSIP for that one channel?Will yours let you schedule a manual timer for the ABC channel with no guide data? Others are getting an error when they try to do that.

Thanks to all who have experimented with setting manual timers for a timeslot NOT covered by guide data. I've learned from your reports that some units allow it, others throw an error, and that the firmware version does not seem to make a difference. Sigh...

While I have no path forward to resolving the errors, I have more support for whining to E* about the bug. And some consolation that I'm neither alone nor crazy. (Well, at least no crazier than usual...)

Again, my thanks for taking the time to experiment and report. This is a great community.

Jim

I have looked at these units and through the online manual. Not sure what kind of guide that it has. Just what type of TV guide does this unit use? TVGOS as in the Sony dvrs and such, or is it something else?
Thanks,
Michael

It uses the same data (TVGOS digital data) that the Sony units use, but with a uglier interface (okay, less polished) and features removed (I.e. searching only HD programming, by genre, name based recordings, etc).

If you look over at the Sony DHG-HDD250/500 thread it seems that many are having rebooting issues in the last couple of weeks, too. Maybe it is a TVGOS issue (some are using digital TVGOS on their machines)

Link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537711&page=448&highlight=)

Could it be the way the stations are transmitting the data? Is this a geographic occurrence? Are in others in your area not having the problem if you are and vice versa?

I'll be testing if I have the reboot problem later today (no reboots so far) by recording two events and watching recorded events at the same time (something I not sure I actually did yet).

I spent about 2 hours watching recordings while it was recording on both tuners. I used it fairly heavily (skip ahead/back, fast forward/reverse, pause, played with the browse and info while watching, chase play, etc.). I did not have any reboots or freezes (this time or any time since I got it Dec. 23).

I did notice that there were breakups (a frame of pixelated blocks) during skip backs, but I'm not sure I didn't see these while a watching a recording while it wasn't recording anything else. It didn't really bother me though (my Dish satellite DVRs don't do this however).

If you look over at the Sony DHG-HDD250/500 thread it seems that many are having rebooting issues in the last couple of weeks, too. Maybe it is a TVGOS issue (some are using digital TVGOS on their machines)

Link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537711&page=448&highlight=)

This is my theory at the moment. Some area's TVGOS data has something in them that is causing problems in the DVR (crashes and reboots), while other area's don't have anything in the TVGOS data that will cause a problem (no reboots).

Perhaps some type of buffer overrun that is not being caught by the DVR software like they are always fixing in browser software.

Ok, I really want to buy one of these units. I started a thread about a month ago about OTA HD DVR's after realizing the utter lack of units on the market. I've read this entire thread with great excitement, and since Macworld let me down yet again this morning, I'm even closer to pulling the trigger.

Two questions: the first I did not see fully addressed, or possibly missed it in 38 pages of posts. Does this unit pass-through the HD/ASTC signal through it's coax port? Being a "converter" box, I figured it would downgrade everything to SD for coaxial output. Can anyone confirm the pass-through? I would rather not use a amp/splitter setup, and I intend to connect this using component cables in lieu of HDMI. My hope is to use the units two tuners to record while using the tuner in my HDTV to watch a third program.

Second, being a pretty tech-savvy guy, I can put up with trouble-shooting lockups, reboots, etc. Being that I love my wife, however, I need something that works as well as our existing Pioneer DVR. Would current users suggest holding out for an upgrade/bug fix version? Do you regret purchasing the initial version? I understand responses may be biased since most owners in this thread are looking for solutions, but would appreciate the response.

Ok, I really want to buy one of these units. I started a thread about a month ago about OTA HD DVR's after realizing the utter lack of units on the market. I've read this entire thread with great excitement, and since Macworld let me down yet again this morning, I'm even closer to pulling the trigger.

Two questions: the first I did not see fully addressed, or possibly missed it in 38 pages of posts. Does this unit pass-through the HD/ASTC signal through it's coax port? Being a "converter" box, I figured it would downgrade everything to SD for coaxial output. Can anyone confirm the pass-through? I would rather not use a amp/splitter setup, and I intend to connect this using component cables in lieu of HDMI. My hope is to use the units two tuners to record while using the tuner in my HDTV to watch a third program.

Second, being a pretty tech-savvy guy, I can put up with trouble-shooting lockups, reboots, etc. Being that I love my wife, however, I need something that works as well as our existing Pioneer DVR. Would current users suggest holding out for an upgrade/bug fix version? Do you regret purchasing the initial version? I understand responses may be biased since most owners in this thread are looking for solutions, but would appreciate the response.


1. - yes it will pass through RF through the coax

2. - it's kind of a crap shoot - if your boxes H/W is good - it works fine - if it isn't , well - you can read...
treat it like most electronics - keep it in a cool, well ventilated space, and it should be fine.

High-definition content is downconverted to SD through composite and coax to support older televisions. The currently tuned channel on the DTVPal DVR is output as RF channel 3 or 4 via coax.

If the DTVPal DVR is 'off' (standby), I believe it may pass the ATSC signal through coax. Hopefully, someone else can confirm whether that is the case.

It seems we now have two polls started near same time, (six minutes), unbeknownst of the other:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1105116 started 12:40pm
and
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1105110 started 12:34pm

So maybe they need combined or delete one.

PS: According to early voters, most are not having the problem.
PSS: I have only voted, for now, in the thread I made so I don't skew the count.

It seems we now have two polls started near same time, (six minutes), unbeknownst of the other:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1105116 started 12:40pm
and
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1105110 started 12:34pm

So maybe they need combined or delete one.

PS: According to early voters, most are not having the problem.
PSS: I have only voted, for now, in the thread I made so I don't skew the count.I aggree, I vote to keep the earlyer one. It has more Responsive. :)

More Votes Yes,
More replies with relevant data No
IMO

I occasionally volunteer with a charity that had a random reboot problem with a Dell computer -- one of an identical lot ordered at the same time. None of the other computers had the problem. After reading some discussion forums, I replaced the power supply and the problem was fixed. Apparently the Dell took "low voltage" as an indication that it had just been turned off, so that normal voltage felt like being turned on. So it rebooted.

This may have nothing to do with the problems reported with the DTVPal DVR, but does illustrate a larger principle: reboots can be caused by software or hardware.

Anyone else running the original firmware and has the ability to set a timer based recording?

I would hate to think that upgrading to F202 takes features away:(

I have original FW, no problems so far using manual timers even into the future or using PSIP to create recording timers.

With poll results showing something like 75% of respondents having no reboot / freeze problems, I feel a little better about my pending order. I'm also planning to take a hard line with Dish if mine has problems, insisting on a new unit. Would suggest that those having problems do the same - you paid $250 + for it, they should send you a unit that works.

I called Dish today asking for a tracking # since they charged my credit card a week ago. It hasn't shipped yet. A supervisor confirmed that it is Dish's practice to charge credit cards immediately even with no units to ship. Why do people put up with Dish's poor customer service and poor quality control? Because this is the only game in town if you want a dual ATSC tuner device that records HD to a hard drive and has TVGOS. Having listed those features my mouth is watering again.

With poll results showing something like 75% of respondents having no reboot / freeze problems, ...
Someone already suggested this, the handling during shipping could be a problem such as making the HD disk cable lose.

Thanks to all who have experimented with setting manual timers for a timeslot NOT covered by guide data. I've learned from your reports that some units allow it, others throw an error, and that the firmware version does not seem to make a difference. Sigh...

While I have no path forward to resolving the errors, I have more support for whining to E* about the bug. And some consolation that I'm neither alone nor crazy. (Well, at least no crazier than usual...)

Again, my thanks for taking the time to experiment and report. This is a great community.

Jim


I was able to get my unit to set for recordings beyond the current guide info. I did a factory reset (which deletes all your scheduled recordings, but not your previously recorded shows). After the reset I was able to set recordings in the future with manual timers.

With poll results showing something like 75% of respondents having no reboot / freeze problems, I feel a little better about my pending order. ...The poll at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1105110
presently has a vote of 15 – 2 – 8.

32% are still having the reboot and/or freeze problems.

32% is high IMO. But it could be because people with problems are more active on the forum to help them find the problem. We need a larger sample.

The poll at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1105110
presently has a vote of 15 – 2 – 8.

32% are still having the reboot and/or freeze problems.

32% is high IMO. But it could be because people with problems are more active on the forum to help them find the problem. We need a larger sample.
I added a "Known Issues" section to the first post, with a link to both polls.

Please read it and let me know how you think it should be revised or clarified.

I added a "Known Issues" section to the first post, with a link to both polls.

Please read it and let me know how you think it should be revised or clarified.Too bad we don't have only one poll, but I guess, great minds thing alike. :)

...
Second, being a pretty tech-savvy guy, I can put up with trouble-shooting lockups, reboots, etc. Being that I love my wife, however, I need something that works as well as our existing Pioneer DVR. ...

Not that it will answer all your questions about the DVR but you can download the manual at www.dtvpal.com.

As for your wife it depends on your pain level. The reboots (if you have them since it appears some don't) only take about a minute and the box continues with what it was doing with no intervention. A couple of mornings my unit did not respond to the remote the first couple of clicks but I have not seen a total freeze/lock up. It always recovered.

No one here has a clue as to what the problem is but I live in hope that a pattern will soon emerge and that it gets fixed but am able to live with it. It is just not right.

High-definition content is downconverted to SD through composite and coax to support older televisions. The currently tuned channel on the DTVPal DVR is output as RF channel 3 or 4 via coax.

If the DTVPal DVR is 'off' (standby), I believe it may pass the ATSC signal through coax. Hopefully, someone else can confirm whether that is the case.

"ANALOG PASS-THROUGH" allows you to record two shows and use your TV's tuner to watch a third signal. It says analog but it just passes the raw RF signal. In an earlier post someone measured the signal loss and determined that there is actually a small amount of gain.

Both polls have been closed. Please use this one topic for all related issues until a consensus is reached on how the poll should be set up, and who's going to do it.

Feel free to make suggestions right here.

Let me know via PM when, and I'll 'sticky' it.

I understand responses may be biased since most owners in this thread are looking for solutions, but would appreciate the response.Or, they might be biased because their units are working OK.

Personally, I'd wait. And wait some more. The chances are way too high that I'd have to exchange it, and if you order from Dish, returning it is out of the question.

Why do people put up with Dish's poor customer service and poor quality control?As far as the customer service, I barely put up with it because the service I have from them is comparatively a lot cheaper for what I get.

As far as the quality control, only the DTVPal, TR-40, DTVPal Plus and the DTVPal DVR have these issues. Anything you use with their pay service is usually fine.

The poll at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1105110
presently has a vote of 15 – 2 – 8.

32% are still having the reboot and/or freeze problems.

32% is high IMO. But it could be because people with problems are more active on the forum to help them find the problem. We need a larger sample.

I would put some fuzz on that 32% because the 2 just may not have not seen a reoccurance (can't blame people for being optimistic that they have a fix). Some of the 15 may just have not seen the problem yet. I think my DVR went over a week before it started rebooting and I think others have experienced similar behaviour. I hope I am wrong but at this point I am cautious about making claims on such a small sample.

Both polls have been closed. Please use this one topic for all related issues until a consensus is reached on how the poll should be set up, and who's going to do it.

Feel free to make suggestions right here.

Let me know via PM when, and I'll 'sticky' it.

I would wonder how many people are having problems and don't even know it because they haven't looked at their power cycle counters, presuming it shouldn't increment under normal operation.

I would wonder how many people are having problems and don't even know it because they haven't looked at their power cycle counters, presuming it shouldn't increment under normal operation.
If still set at the factory defaults it will power cycle every night at 1 AM.

If still set at the factory defaults it will power cycle every night at 1 AM.

Disagree with you on this - my counter only increments when it gets unplugged from power.

Disagree with you on this - my counter only increments when it gets unplugged from power.
Mine did every night until I disabled Updates. :confused:

Personally, I'd wait. And wait some more. The chances are way too high that I'd have to exchange it, and if you order from Dish, returning it is out of the question.Agreed, I've read more than enough to make me wait. As I noted earlier, I would wait at least until after the 2/17 shutdown and then some -- at least to March. By then the Jan 12 units will have shipped and be on hand for review and possibly a third wave may have made it out the door. Possibly even availability at the retail level.

I will say that if it was available at retail now with an easy in-store return policy, I would buy tomorrow -- even if the retail price was $300.

Agreed, I've read more than enough to make me wait. As I noted earlier, I would wait at least until after the 2/17 shutdown and then some -- at least to March. By then the Jan 12 units will have shipped and be on hand for review and possibly a third wave may have made it out the door. Possibly even availability at the retail level.

I will say that if it was available at retail now with an easy in-store return policy, I would buy tomorrow -- even if the retail price was $300.

My exact sentiments. No apparent awareness of the manufacturer that these problems exist is not encouraging. KMart carries Dish CECBs. Hoping they do the same with these.

I'm wondering how many with the reboot problem got cold boxes from UPS and didn't wait for them to warm up before setting them up...mine sat in the house for 12 hours.
Or, did any of you move the box after setup while it was still plugged in?

The box was in the house for 24 hours before turning it on. The box was moved about 1 foot after it was plugged in, but that was it. It was in the open for clear ventilation. It was plugged into a surge protector, and then directly into the wall. Tried in two different houses. I used component cables, then HDMI only, then both. I tried so many things I can't remember them all. After 51 power recycles, the box was shipped back to Dish, even though they don't have a formal return policy and couldn't give me a RA number. They said including my account number in the returned box would work.

I happy for all of you that have good units. I really liked what I saw minus reboots and freezes. I can live with the other limitations mentioned, but not 3 or 4 reboots an hour, and the morning ritual of unplugging and plugging the unit back in.

I discovered this as well - don't have both HDMI and component at the same time on the same TV. It might work OK if you're going to two different displays - I don't have any way to test that.

I've yet to find a box of any kind that can output component and hdmi simultaneously. My Samsung box has a switch. My Scientific Atlanta cable tuner cuts out component if it sees hdmi being used even on different displays. I hope someone can test this - this would make this device MUCH more useful to me (and others that might want 2 HD outputs simultaneously).

As far as the customer service, I barely put up with it because the service I have from them is comparatively a lot cheaper for what I get.

As far as the quality control, only the DTVPal, TR-40, DTVPal Plus and the DTVPal DVR have these issues. Anything you use with their pay service is usually fine.

Oh not really, do some research and you will see the Dish has had many problems with their satellite DVRs.

The box was in the house for 24 hours before turning it on. The box was moved about 1 foot after it was plugged in, but that was it. It was in the open for clear ventilation. It was plugged into a surge protector, and then directly into the wall. Tried in two different houses. I used component cables, then HDMI only, then both. I tried so many things I can't remember them all. After 51 power recycles, the box was shipped back to Dish, even though they don't have a formal return policy and couldn't give me a RA number. They said including my account number in the returned box would work.

I happy for all of you that have good units. I really liked what I saw minus reboots and freezes. I can live with the other limitations mentioned, but not 3 or 4 reboots an hour, and the morning ritual of unplugging and plugging the unit back in.

I really do feel for those that are having trouble.
My experience with the Pal CECB and Dish Network support is/was very much like the things you are just now beginning to endure
To all of you...may you win in the end.

BTW...nobody has really raised this point but I was thinking about it and I can attest to the fact that heavy use of the DVR does not cause any of your problems as I (and I somewhat hate to admit this) use mine an average of 8 hours a day with the weekends getting up to 16 hours. Still no sign of reboots, etc.

2 months is how long the beta testers had them. Retail users have had them for about 2 weeks.

So someone within the company must have leaked out the "rebooting" problem that was alleged to have happened 10-12 months ago?
Must have been leaked about the same time as the 2008 CES show. Must have been a disgruntled employee?

RE: 2 months is how long the beta testers had them.

Today's date Jan-06-2009

(2) months would make that right about the 6th of Nov-2008.... So that means that the Beta Testers only had the product for 13-days, before pre-orders? (Nov 19-2008)..

If that is the case (which is doubtful), that wouldn't leave ANY time for changes before units went to production.

While I don't doubt some "beta-testers" only had access to units for such a short time, it's hard to believe a company would release the product to production without previous testing sessions.


.

I didn't get a chance to vote in the polls before they closed, but I've had my unit since Dec. 22, with no reboots/lockups. I have seen a tuner fail to get released after a recording attempt if I scheduled a recording for a channel where the signal was insufficient for a lock. Hours later the red light would still be on. Manually starting a recording and then stopping it seemed to release both tuners. I think I've seen a few reports of this by others.

I'm very happy with the unit.

Mark

RE: 2 months is how long the beta testers had them.

Today's date Jan-06-2009

(2) months would make that right about the 6th of Nov-2008.... So that means that the Beta Testers only had the product for 13-days, before pre-orders? (Nov 19-2008)..

If that is the case (which is doubtful), that wouldn't leave ANY time for changes before units went to production.

While I don't doubt some "beta-testers" only had access to units for such a short time, it's hard to believe a company would release the product to production without previous testing sessions.


.Your math is pretty skewed. I think it was clear he meant the initial testers had the units 2 months before the pre-order window was opened in mid-November. But even if that was the case, the design was already locked for RTM. It would have to be, you don't just tool up a line and pop these things out of china over-night.

I hate to say it but it appears the initial testers were actually the alpha testers and all the early adopters are the real beta-testers, who got to pay for the privilege.

From all the posts and polls we're clearly in a situation where some fraction of shipped units work as advertised and the other fraction suffer the reboots/freezes to varying degrees. An example of chinese manufacturing and "QC" at it's finest. Anyone want to take bets on whether or not these boxes are made by funai.

This is my theory at the moment. Some area's TVGOS data has something in them that is causing problems in the DVR (crashes and reboots), while other area's don't have anything in the TVGOS data that will cause a problem (no reboots).

Perhaps some type of buffer overrun that is not being caught by the DVR software like they are always fixing in browser software.

Posted my comments on this topic on the Sony HDD forum here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15480191&postcount=13429

Both polls have been closed. Please use this one topic for all related issues until a consensus is reached on how the poll should be set up, and who's going to do it.

Feel free to make suggestions right here.

Let me know via PM when, and I'll 'sticky' it.
Guys (and Ladies),

I think a poll of which owners are experiencing lock-up issues is a very good and hopefully useful tool. If there is anyone from Echostar watching AVS, then a poll will be the best way to communicate how big this problem could be. For those of us who have not yet purchased a DTVPal, the poll will be useful to level set the expectations.

Let's please get a new poll started.

I vote for two simple possibilities:

1) no lock-ups
2) I-ve seen lock-ups

I don't think an option of "yes, but they are fixed" makes sense as we cannot disprove a negative (we don't know why the lock-up happens, so we can't know how to fix it).

If someone want's to suggest some more fine tuned options (fw rev, TVGOS vs PSIP, ...) then please suggest them so that we can get a new poll put together.

Thanks,

-phil

Agreed, I've read more than enough to make me wait. As I noted earlier, I would wait at least until after the 2/17 shutdown and then some -- at least to March. By then the Jan 12 units will have shipped and be on hand for review and possibly a third wave may have made it out the door. Possibly even availability at the retail level.

I will say that if it was available at retail now with an easy in-store return policy, I would buy tomorrow -- even if the retail price was $300.

I've read enough problems here to reconsider my purchase. However, I've tried for three days to cancel my order with no success. I tried again this evening, but the guy stated that he wasn't sure of the process, but would contact the correct dept. Yeah right.

All three times, I was told to refuse the shipment and when the DVR returned, they would credit my account. Yeah right.

Has anyone else had any success at canceling an order?

Thanks!

...
All three times, I was told to refuse the shipment ...

UPS just dumps it on your porch so if you want to refuse it get a tracking number so you know when it will be delivered and a lawn chair:).

Guys (and Ladies),

I vote for two simple possibilities:

1) no lock-ups
2) I-ve seen lock-ups

Thanks,

-phil
I agree with this simple poll with one change. Change lock-ups to include reboot. These are 2 specific conditions. My lock-up issues have mostly disappeared. I'm now experiencing primarily reboots. No action taken on my part to change the behavior.

"ANALOG PASS-THROUGH" allows you to record two shows and use your TV's tuner to watch a third signal. It says analog but it just passes the raw RF signal. In an earlier post someone measured the signal loss and determined that there is actually a small amount of gain.

I'm running an experiment right now to see if the reboot occurs when configured this way. I selected the ANALOG PASS-THROUGH, left the unit on, switched my TV to the antenna input (coax) instead of the DVR input (HDMI).

I won't be able to record in this configuration, won't be able to see Guide data, etc. But hopefully I'll be able to obtain additional behavior data.

...

Feel free to make suggestions right here.

....

Are check boxes supported? I would like to see a bit more refinement. For example:

Radio buttons:

No events noted
At least one event
Events detract from utility


Check boxes:

Lockup - removed power to reset
Lockup - self recovered
Reboots
Skipped recording
Canceled recording
Record light failed to extinguish
...


Might as well get as much information as we can while we are at it.

...
I won't be able to record in this configuration, won't be able to see Guide data, etc. But hopefully I'll be able to obtain additional behavior data.

You can record, you just have to start/schedule the recording before you select passthrough. To view the guide you have to switch back both the TV and DVR. It can get a little confusing since both have to be in the right mode but it can be done once you learn the dance. What you lose is the ability to pause and rewind live TV. :)

Guys (and Ladies),

I think a poll of which owners are experiencing lock-up issues is a very good and hopefully useful tool. If there is anyone from Echostar watching AVS, then a poll will be the best way to communicate how big this problem could be. For those of us who have not yet purchased a DTVPal, the poll will be useful to level set the expectations.

Let's please get a new poll started.

I vote for two simple possibilities:

1) no lock-ups
2) I-ve seen lock-ups

I don't think an option of "yes, but they are fixed" makes sense as we cannot disprove a negative (we don't know why the lock-up happens, so we can't know how to fix it).

If someone want's to suggest some more fine tuned options (fw rev, TVGOS vs PSIP, ...) then please suggest them so that we can get a new poll put together.

Thanks,

-phil

I agree with this simple poll with one change. Change lock-ups to include reboot. These are 2 specific conditions. My lock-up issues have mostly disappeared. I'm now experiencing primarily reboots. No action taken on my part to change the behavior.I cast my vote for simple, also.

IMHO, I think the 2-response poll by isnms was perfect. It gets right to the heart of the problem and simply tallies who is having problems and who is not. The more complicated and detailed you make the poll the less likely people will be willing to spend the time answering it and that will skew the results to those who are most motivated -- i.e. those with a problem.

If it were up to me, I would delete the MickeySoft Poll, then unlock and sticky the isnms poll.

Another theory on the reboots: I was surfing trying to find information on a Sony laptop that started up and shut down almost immediately. One site said that there were bad capacitors (see below) in the power conditioning circuits that caused it to overheat and shut down to protect itself.

RE: Sony laptop that started up and shut down almost immediately.

On the desktop machine (From the trash @ local thrift store) I'm typing on right now it would barely make it past the BIOS screen, start to load the OS, then crash.

Fix? Re-apply thermo grease between CPU and heat sink.

On your laptop- On laptops they have a bad habit of sucking in dirt, hair etc... which clogs up the cooling system... so that is the first place to look.
http://www.laptopka.com/2006/04/11/laptop-overheating-problem/



Picture of clogged laptop cooling system:

http://www.laptoprepair101.com/wp-images/Toshiba-Satellite-P15-heatsink.jpg


On the DTVPal DVR...as I've posted previously most manufacturers have their production spread between 2-3 factories, and source their parts from several different suppliers concurrently.

Reason?- Well if you have (1) factory and there's a strike or natural disaster you're screwed.... (Ditto on your parts suppliers).

What this means for those experiencing reboots /lockups etc is units (or parts) from factory 1 & 2 may be ok, and units, or parts coming from factory (or supplier) #3 may be defective /marginal.


Translation: Units that are locking up, etc came from the factory /supplier putting out sub-standard /marginal parts.


.

UPS just dumps it on your porch so if you want to refuse it get a tracking number so you know when it will be delivered and a lawn chair:).

Fourth call, but there's no tracking number on the account. They do have my email address. Will they send a tracking number when the boxes ship?

Should I dispute the charges with the Visa CC now? Would that help stop the shipping and cancel the order?

Thanks

(...) Will they send a tracking number when the boxes ship?
No.

I didn't get a chance to vote in the polls before they closed, but I've had my unit since Dec. 22, with no reboots/lockups. I have seen a tuner fail to get released after a recording attempt if I scheduled a recording for a channel where the signal was insufficient for a lock. Hours later the red light would still be on. Manually starting a recording and then stopping it seemed to release both tuners. I think I've seen a few reports of this by others.

I'm very happy with the unit.

Mark

Same here...the polls were already closed before I could vote, but I haven't experienced any problems so far.

OK, I'm a bit confused now. I've been posting in the Fort Wayne, IN HDTV reception forum at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=269203&page=101 and a user says that he is getting 2 weeks worth of digital TV guide on his TV set. I'm only 13 miles south of Ft. Wayne and have tried everything I can think of.... NO GO! I put in my actual zip, waited 24 hours, nothing. I put in the alternate zip from the manual, waited 24 hours, nothing. I looked up the CBS stations zip and put it in, waited 24 hours, still nothing. I can only manage basic PSIP data and most channels only give me MAYBE 12 hours worth!

Anybody else have some tricks I can try?

I do have the latest firmware update via Ethernet.
(yes it was connected to broadband all the time)

The other day it just rebooted while watching a show
(Not recording at the time and none scheduled)
(it is now disconnected from the internet since the reboot and I will keep an eye to see if it does it again while not connected)


The other problem
I was in the other room but could hear the TV and suddenly no sound so I went to the Guide and it froze
could not do anything
could not get out of the guide
could not select another channel
could not turn off the unit with the remote
I had to unplug the unit to reboot

I do have the latest firmware update via Ethernet.
(yes it was connected to broadband all the time)

The other day it just rebooted while watching a show
(Not recording at the time and none scheduled)
(it is now disconnected from the internet since the reboot and I will keep an eye to see if it does it again while not connected)


The other problem
I was in the other room but could hear the TV and suddenly no sound so I went to the Guide and it froze
could not do anything
could not get out of the guide
could not select another channel
could not turn off the unit with the remote
I had to unplug the unit to reboot


Jeez, this sure sounds like déjà vue all over again. I have been using an LG3410A DVR for the past four years, and have experienced frequent lockups which seem to at least some degree to be related to corruption of the TVGOS data, either at the source, in transmission, or by the local broadcaster. The LG3410A thread on this forum runs to some 5500+ posts, the great majority of which are TVGOS-related. Users have had to develop a variety of techniques to reboot the devices. While the Dish DTVPal DVR certainly seems to have more than its share of problems, I can't help but think that at least some of them are related to corrupt TVGOS data from the broadcaster. Gemstar has had at least four years to get this straightened out, with little success.

Count me as blaming TVGOS for the lockup and rebooting some have experienced.
Seems it's the current topic on Sony DHG-HDD250/500: Thread .
Lockups and reboots! (I own both boxes)
The problems are to similiar not to be related by a common denominator.
TVGOS

It's probably a geographical problem, depending where you get you TVGOS data and wither it's corupted data or not.

I'm sure there's other opinions..... this is just mine!

OK, I'm a bit confused now. I've been posting in the Fort Wayne, IN HDTV reception forum at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=269203&page=101 and a user says that he is getting 2 weeks worth of digital TV guide on his TV set. I'm only 13 miles south of Ft. Wayne and have tried everything I can think of.... NO GO! I put in my actual zip, waited 24 hours, nothing. I put in the alternate zip from the manual, waited 24 hours, nothing. I looked up the CBS stations zip and put it in, waited 24 hours, still nothing. I can only manage basic PSIP data and most channels only give me MAYBE 12 hours worth!

Anybody else have some tricks I can try?

Apples and oranges: he's getting analog TVGOS data, not digital. Based on other posts, it seems digital has more frequent updates, and the device does not need to be turned off to receive them. He mentioned (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15482600#post15482600) "my set will only update its guide data overnight if the TV is turned OFF. If it is on, it will NOT update itself. Also, it took several days before it finally got the entire two weeks worth of listings." Digital TVGOS doesn't seem to follow the same update schedule.

A Milwaukee user with a Sony DHG unit posted (http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8255&page=3) that he gets analog data just fine, but when he forces the unit to look at our CBS station for digital TVGOS data, it does not populate his guide. I think the digital TVGOS version is showing some teething problems...

So, can people start posting there location (City State, and maybe how far away you are from the signal).

I was waiting for this to come out but missed the first pre-order phase. I was getting ready to order, but found out these problems.
(I did a post in the cnet forums, more hoping they would do a review of them)

Can you download the firmware online? More I was trying to figure out if there was a site I could check when and if new firmware comes out?

I'll probably be waiting until after Jan 12 shipments start to go out. But if its a TVGOS problem, have people turned this off fix anything? (A quick google search shows people have had problems "TVGOS reboot" sense 2006)

Has anybody that had the problem actually found out a way to "fix" it? Has anybody that got back a replacement unit still had the problem?

Are check boxes supported? I would like to see a bit more refinement. For example:

Radio buttons:

No events noted
At least one event
Events detract from utility

Check boxes:

Lockup - removed power to reset
Lockup - self recovered
Reboots
Skipped recording
Canceled recording
Record light failed to extinguish
...

Might as well get as much information as we can while we are at it.We need a poll. I don't care who adds one and I don't think we need a poll to determine what the pole should aske. :)

As far as I know, radio buttons and check boxes cannot be mixed in a poll. They have to be either all one or the other.

Maybe dfbtv should add one. He has been doing a good job monitoring this thread.

How about the following? I added the word "excessive" because my DTVPal froze about twice since I received it many months ago. I don't consider that excessive.


DTVPal DVR, Problems?

Have you been experiencing excessive reboot and/or freeze problems with your DTVPal DVR?

Yes
No

(...) Can you download the firmware online? More I was trying to figure out if there was a site I could check when and if new firmware comes out?
At this site (http://www.dishnetwork.com/dtvpal/dvr.shtml) when you click Support, but not posted yet.

Has anybody that had the problem actually found out a way to "fix" it? Has anybody that got back a replacement unit still had the problem?

Some of us have had no problems since disabling Updates (whether connected to the Internet or not).

Some of us have had no problems since disabling Updates (whether connected to the Internet or not).I think there is not one problem but several.

This is why I had the second option that you had a problem but fixed it in the poll.

Just to say again so people don't think everyone's box is bad, I've had mine since Dec. 23 and the only problem I"ve had is that one of my recordings said there was a problem with a certain recording due to lost signal.

I'm in the Mpls, MN area and the TV Guide portion has worked perfect as far as I can tell. Also I did update the firmware right away.

Count me as blaming TVGOS for the lockup and rebooting some have experienced.
Seems it's the current topic on Sony DHG-HDD250/500: Thread .
Lockups and reboots! (I own both boxes)
The problems are to similiar not to be related by a common denominator.
TVGOS

It's probably a geographical problem, depending where you get you TVGOS data and wither it's corupted data or not.

I'm sure there's other opinions..... this is just mine!

Does anyone in the COLUMBUS, OHIO market have a box that has the reboot/lockup problem(s)? Not someone on the fringe that is trying to pickup more than one DMA...just the WBNS TVGOS signal.

Just to say again so people don't think everyone's box is bad, I've had mine since Dec. 23 and the only problem I"ve had is that one of my recordings said there was a problem with a certain recording due to lost signal.

I'm in the Mpls, MN area and the TV Guide portion has worked perfect as far as I can tell. Also I did update the firmware right away.

I am not convinced that it is the box. I believe it is TVGOS or how the box is being used (how many events are scheduled). Since I reset to factory defaults and started adding events I have not had a reboot. Didn't have one before for at least a week.

A possible remedy? Perform 'Restore factory defaults'


...After my series of lockups, I restored the unit to factory defaults (menu>setup>system setup>factory defaults), redid the initial install/setup using the options listed above, and reset the counters to zero (menu>setup>system setup>diagnostics>counters>reset). Since then, zero lockups or restarts, and my No of Power Cycles is 0...

...Since I reset to factory defaults and started adding events I have not had a reboot...

I performed the restore factory defaults (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15383264#post15383264) procedure within the first two days, to clean up after early tinkering and one 'failed to start' timer, and I have no reboots or freezes.

I tried to search the thread to see if anyone that has done the restore still experiences the problem but did not find it if it's there.

One thing that may help -
Do that "Restore Factory Defaults" before you start using it / after each S/W upgrade. This will NOT delete your recordings (you have to format the Harddrive to do that).

I've read enough problems here to reconsider my purchase. However, I've tried for three days to cancel my order with no success. I tried again this evening, but the guy stated that he wasn't sure of the process, but would contact the correct dept. Yeah right.

All three times, I was told to refuse the shipment and when the DVR returned, they would credit my account. Yeah right.

Has anyone else had any success at canceling an order?

Thanks!

Call your Credit Card company and dispute the charges - Let them know you tried three times to cancel it via customer service and got no where.

I agree with this simple poll with one change. Change lock-ups to include reboot. These are 2 specific conditions. My lock-up issues have mostly disappeared. I'm now experiencing primarily reboots. No action taken on my part to change the behavior.

I think we should ask for the DMA the users are in to see if this is a Digital TVGOS issue - as Catmother (post 1174) suggested.

I think we should ask for the DMA the users are in to see if this is a Digital TVGOS issue - as Catmother (post 1174) suggested.


I would be very interested in finding out for sure if this is a TVGOS issue or if it is a issue with the DVR makeup itself.

I've been looking forward to this DVR for over a year now and I have been holding off on buying it because of the lockup/reboot issues. I am in a area where TVGOS isn't available and if this is simply a TVGOS issue then I would order the DVR tomorrow because the issues wouldn't affect me.

I have not purchased a DTVPal DVR, but am strongly considering it. I have a question regarding closed captions. I prefer to use the analog closed caption format (CC1), as it is more reliable and available than the digital format. Can anyone tell me what the options are for closed caption services on this unit? If there is a menu page that lists them, a picture of that would be most helpful.

Thanks in advance :)

Just to say again so people don't think everyone's box is bad, I've had mine since Dec. 23 and the only problem I"ve had is that one of my recordings said there was a problem with a certain recording due to lost signal.

I'm in the Mpls, MN area and the TV Guide portion has worked perfect as far as I can tell. Also I did update the firmware right away.

+1

I am also having no problems with my box recieved Dec.24
Carver, MN.
Factory firmware.
Removed smart card before plugging in unit.
Using 1080i settings with component cables

I am also a light television watcher 6-8hrs/week
I have watched some live tv and chased some recordings and recorded 2 while watching a 3rd for a few short tests.
I mainly watch shows after recordings are completed. (kids in bed)
No reboots or lockups for me.

I have recorded 18-20 shows and never had a failure. (probably watched 10 of them)

My box is working exactly as advertised.

S

^From your report and no mention of restoring factory defaults, restoring may not be the answer.

I have not purchased a DTVPal DVR, but am strongly considering it. I have a question regarding closed captions. I prefer to use the analog closed caption format (CC1), as it is more reliable and available than the digital format. Can anyone tell me what the options are for closed caption services on this unit? If there is a menu page that lists them, a picture of that would be most helpful.

Thanks in advance :)
There's a CC button on the remote that turns CC on or off.
I have not seen any other options.

^From your report and no mention of restoring factory defaults, restoring may not be the answer.Don't be so quick to leap without any data. There are plenty of people here who are having reboot issues. Let's see them do the factory restore and report on the success/failure before drawing conclusions. Just like they did with the "turn off the update" test.

OK, guys. It's your turn. Care to check this one out?

menu > preferences > closed caption > caption services > [1-6]

Kelson: You're right, it would be good to have a test of it.

I was able to sucessfully upgrade my DTVPAL DVR to a 500GB Drive.

The hardest part for me was removing the case - - - I guess it would help to have 3 or 4 hands! :)

Anyway many thanks to otaviewer for his instructions on how to open the case.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15379248&postcount=292

I purchased the drive from Newegg for $59 and it is a WD5000AAJS as others have suggested as a good replacement.

Opened the case using otaviewer's instructions above and replaced the drive.

One interesting thing was that the drive is mounted with 4 rubber donuts at the screws to reduce vibration.

Also the fan is so quiet because they wrapped the edge in rubber so it does not rattle and it is very secure in it's housing.

Here are some pictures of the process.

Just wanted to chime in. I've had my box since Dec 24. I've recorded 30+ hours, using both the manual timer and guide. Have recorded 2 shows at one time while watching a recorded show. No failures, lockup or reboots.

I guess I got lucky, but these units can work properly.

Recorded shows occasionally say that the signal was lost during recordings, but so far I haven't seen anything missing on playback.

I have the TV Guide logo displayed in the guide, but I receive 7 day info for less than half the stations (I think Fox, CBS, NBC and CW). All other stations generally have about 12 hours of guide info. I haven't received any info for the ABC station for the last few days.

Original firmware; update still set for 1am from setup; using my home zip code; no Ethernet connection; connected to HDTV via component. I'm in Oakland, CA.

I was able to sucessfully upgrade my DTVPAL DVR to a 500GB Drive.

The hardest part for me was removing the case - - - I guess it would help to have 3 or 4 hands! :)

Anyway many thanks to otaviewer for his instructions on how to open the case.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15379248&postcount=292

I purchased the drive from Newegg for $59 and it is a WD5000AAJS as others have suggested as a good replacement.

Opened the case using otaviewer's instructions above and replaced the drive.

One interesting thing was that the drive is mounted with 4 rubber donuts at the screws to reduce vibration.

Also the fan is so quiet because they wrapped the edge in rubber so it does not rattle and it is very secure in it's housing.

Here are some pictures of the process.

Do you know if the WD5000AAKS will work? Similiar drive but 16MB cache. I know it's $5 more but Newegg is out of the WD5000AAJS http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136073

Do you know if the WD5000AAKS will work? Similiar drive but 16MB cache. I know it's $5 more but Newegg is out of the WD5000AAJS http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136073Think for a moment about what a cache does. Then consider how a DVR works. Cache doesn't do much for random I/O.

There's a reason why virtually every CE drive has 1/2 to 1/4 the cache on desktop drives.

chapelrun... or anyone else upgrading drive.

I have not opened mine up yet, but I was wondering what happens if you take out a drive with recordings on it and replace it with a 500 Gig then recorded some on the new drive.

What happens if you put the old drive back in?
Are the old recordings avaliable? (when you put the old drive back in)
Or does it just format it?

I'm just thinking that if I open mine up and extend HDD cables out the back of the PAL.
I could just swap multiple drives around when they are full.

Kind of like swapping out a VCR tape when you want to keep it.
Or like using an external USB drive (feature that is not supported yet)

Thanks S

Boy oh boy oh boy am I ever glad to be able to offer this report:
Following the lead offered yesterday by Zeke1975 in Post#1151, I upgraded my firmware to 202, reset to factory settings, then re-did my set-up and preferences. I am now free to create manual timers beyond the 12-hour window covered by the PSIP guide data! Woo hoo!

With that hurdle overcome, I am 98% happier with this purchase, as it is now a fully-capable VCR-replacement for the digital era. More importantly, my wife -- the chief VCR programmer in the family -- is happy for the first time since our Pal arrived in the house. We had been dragging our feet on the digital conversion, but I had been cooing for months about how happy she was going to be with a real live DVR, and the bug with which we were suffering was making her life miserable, pretty much single-handedly.

Yes, we suffer the occasional reboot -- no lockups, though -- but they are only a minor nuisance as yet. Yes, we'd love to have TVGOS data for all five of our networks -- not just two -- but setting up timers from the guide is a convenience, not a necessity, especially when a VCR is your point of reference. (And I knew going in that TVGOS was likely to be pretty much of a boondoggle.) Yes, we'd love to be able to set up a timer for a program scheduled further into the future than two weeks, but that should be an easy feature enhancement after the bigger bugs are squashed. But these are all quibbles. At this point, I'm freakin' thrilled to have purchased my first HD OTA DVR for a mere $250. (Remember how much we spent on our first VCRs twenty-some years ago?)

Thanks again to Zeke1975 for pointing the way. My apologies to any scientists who would have had me take one step at a time and test thoroughly after each instead of upgrading firmware and resetting in one fell swoop. Deal with it. ;)

I'm a happy boy tonight. (When Mama's happy, everybody's happy.)

Jim

Think for a moment about what a cache does. Then consider how a DVR works. Cache doesn't do much for random I/O.

There's a reason why virtually every CE drive has 1/2 to 1/4 the cache on desktop drives.

I wasn't after faster performance, Newegg is just out of stock on the 8MB cache drives. Perhaps Newegg will get a new shipment soon and keep the price at $60 w/free shipping.

I wasn't after faster performance, Newegg is just out of stock on the 8MB cache drives. Perhaps Newegg will get a new shipment soon and keep the price at $60 w/free shipping.
To add to the previous post, I don't think the extra cache would hurt anything. Just don't expect it to make a difference in performance, cause it won't. That was established years ago by people upgrading their DirecTV and TiVo DVRs.

My first choice would be the WD5000AVVS (http://www.buy.com/prod/western-digital-av-gp-wd5000avvs-hard-drive-500gb-serial-ata-300/q/loc/101/206827120.html), followed by the WD5000AVJS (http://www.buy.com/prod/western-digital-av-wd5000avjs-hard-drive-500gb-7200rpm-serial-ata-300/q/loc/101/206577090.html) used in the latest DirecTV and Dish Network HDTV DVRs. These drives come preconfigured with firmware settings to minimize noise.

All recent drives from Hitachi, Maxtor, and Western Digital support a feature known as Automatic Acoustic Management (AAM). This configurable setting allows one to reduce seek noise at the expense of some performance. Most desktop drives ship with AAM disabled (or at a high setting) so as to provide maximum performance on desktop computers. Since such performance is unnecessary in a DVR, it makes sense to enable AAM. An AAM setting of 128 will provide the quietest possible operation.

You can change the AAM setting on your Hitachi, Maxtor, or Western Digital desktop drive using the free Hitachi Feature Tool (http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm). This is available as a boot CD and a boot floppy. The full manual can be found here (http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/downloads/FTool_User_Guide_208.pdf).

Do you know if the WD5000AAKS will work? Similiar drive but 16MB cache. I know it's $5 more but Newegg is out of the WD5000AAJS http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136073

That's what I put in - got it from Tiger Direct (we have 2 Tiger Direct Retail outlets within driving distance - very dangerous to my wallet :D ).

chapelrun... or anyone else upgrading drive.

I have not opened mine up yet, but I was wondering what happens if you take out a drive with recordings on it and replace it with a 500 Gig then recorded some on the new drive.

What happens if you put the old drive back in?
Are the old recordings avaliable? (when you put the old drive back in)
Or does it just format it?

I'm just thinking that if I open mine up and extend HDD cables out the back of the PAL.
I could just swap multiple drives around when they are full.

Kind of like swapping out a VCR tape when you want to keep it.
Or like using an external USB drive (feature that is not supported yet)

Thanks S

Not sure how it works - - - but my guess is that if I put the 250GB back in the DTVPAL DVR would again "see" the old recordings that I had on this drive. I would assume it is reading a File Allocation Table (FAT) or some similar part of the drive when you ask the system for "My Recordings".

As for changing drives very often - - - I don't plan to open my case again unless the 500GB drive should fail because it is a pain to get off. Don't get me wrong I think it was well worth it to upgrade but it is not easy enough to do every day.

Do you know if the WD5000AAKS will work? Similiar drive but 16MB cache. I know it's $5 more but Newegg is out of the WD5000AAJS http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136073

I successfully upgraded my unit tonight with this exact drive. I bought it from Amazon.com for $56.99 with free super saver shipping. :) Good luck!

I'm still curious if something higher than 500GB could be used. I know someone tried a 750 or 1TB and it did not work but I thought it was later found that their drive was defective.
I'll be trying my green power 500GB WD once my next PVR DVR is shipped.

I received my unit on Dec. 24. It worked well the first week, with two successful recordings and no lockups or reboots. Then the third recording split in two parts. Then I experienced a reboot when I had no recordings pending. I tried removing the update feature as recommended here. Despite that, tonight while watching for three hours (again with no recordings scheduled), I had two lockups about two hours apart. Total power cycles so far--12. The errors and problems are accelerating with continued use, and I am an infrequent TV watcher, only a few hours a week. I am now trying to reset the factory defaults, as recommended here. This resets the power cycle count to 1. I consider the lockup problem much more serious than the reboot. With lockups you lose the program for 3 or 4 minutes while you unplug it and wait to reload TVGOS, while with a reboot the program reappears in about a minute. I am in Arlington, VA with a rooftop antennae and rotor and signal strength above 90 for all stations. If the lockups continue, I will consider the unit a failure and will reinstall my old Samsung tuner. Very disappointing. If I had known the unit would be this bad, I probably would not have bought it.

I'm still curious if something higher than 500GB could be used. I know someone tried a 750 or 1TB and it did not work but I thought it was later found that their drive was defective.
I'll be trying my green power 500GB WD once my next PVR DVR is shipped.

I was just about to ask this. Have the right speed and type of 750gb or 1TB drives all been tried? Is there still some testing needed to be done? Or is it pretty much accepted that 500gb is the largest possible upgrade.

Following the lead offered yesterday by Zeke1975 in Post#1151, I upgraded my firmware to 202, reset to factory settings, then re-did my set-up and preferences. I am now free to create manual timers beyond the 12-hour window covered by the PSIP guide data! Woo hoo!

Yes, we suffer the occasional reboot -- no lockups, though -- but they are only a minor nuisance as yet. I'm happy to see something could be corrected. If you have been following the conversation above you will note that the next theory for fixing the reboots is to do the factory reset. You report you see reboots and now you have done the factory reset. After a couple days or so, would you please report back if you have or have not experienced any further reboots. TIA

You report you see reboots and now you have done the factory reset. After a couple days or so, would you please report back if you have or have not experienced any further reboots.

Sorry to report that we've already seen one or two reboots, so I wouldn't put too much stock in the reset as a fix.

Jim

I am now trying to reset the factory defaults, as recommended here. This resets the power cycle count to 1. I consider the lockup problem much more serious than the reboot. With lockups you lose the program for 3 or 4 minutes while you unplug it and wait to reload TVGOS, while with a reboot the program reappears in about a minute. I am in Arlington, VA with a rooftop antennae and rotor and signal strength above 90 for all stations. If the lockups continue, I will consider the unit a failure and will reinstall my old Samsung tuner. Very disappointing. If I had known the unit would be this bad, I probably would not have bought it.Please keep us informed as to whether or not the reset to factory defaults reduces or eliminates the problem. You stated you started off good and then the problems started with some use and are now accelerating with further use. It would be informative if your factory reset cured the ills but then they came back again with use.

Sorry to report that we've already seen one or two reboots, so I wouldn't put too much stock in the reset as a fix.

JimOh, crap

This is a bummer. I really wanted one of these but I can't tolerate recurring reboots or lockups. I want it to just work as advertised. Ah well, let's just wait and see what the future brings post 2/17.

Any freezing or rebooting problems being experienced by those who have upgraded their hard drives?

When you upgrade the firmware, do you have a change to save the current firmware, in case you want to reload the old rev?

Any update on the final poll?

Again, let me know via AVS Private Message.

I am in a area where TVGOS isn't available and if this is simply a TVGOS issue then I would order the DVR tomorrow because the issues wouldn't affect me.
....till the local CBS station decides to deliver TVGOS...;)

....till the local CBS station decides to deliver TVGOS...;)

Yeah, but hopefully by then the bugs causing the reboot/lockups would be fixed (cross fingers) :D

Boy oh boy oh boy am I ever glad to be able to offer this report:
Following the lead offered yesterday by Zeke1975 in Post#1151, I upgraded my firmware to 202, reset to factory settings, then re-did my set-up and preferences. I am now free to create manual timers beyond the 12-hour window covered by the PSIP guide data! Woo hoo!

With that hurdle overcome, I am 98% happier with this purchase, as it is now a fully-capable VCR-replacement for the digital era. More importantly, my wife -- the chief VCR programmer in the family -- is happy for the first time since our Pal arrived in the house. We had been dragging our feet on the digital conversion, but I had been cooing for months about how happy she was going to be with a real live DVR, and the bug with which we were suffering was making her life miserable, pretty much single-handedly.

Yes, we suffer the occasional reboot -- no lockups, though -- but they are only a minor nuisance as yet. Yes, we'd love to have TVGOS data for all five of our networks -- not just two -- but setting up timers from the guide is a convenience, not a necessity, especially when a VCR is your point of reference. (And I knew going in that TVGOS was likely to be pretty much of a boondoggle.) Yes, we'd love to be able to set up a timer for a program scheduled further into the future than two weeks, but that should be an easy feature enhancement after the bigger bugs are squashed. But these are all quibbles. At this point, I'm freakin' thrilled to have purchased my first HD OTA DVR for a mere $250. (Remember how much we spent on our first VCRs twenty-some years ago?)

Thanks again to Zeke1975 for pointing the way. My apologies to any scientists who would have had me take one step at a time and test thoroughly after each instead of upgrading firmware and resetting in one fell swoop. Deal with it. ;)

I'm a happy boy tonight. (When Mama's happy, everybody's happy.)

Jim

Jim,

I'm glad to hear it's working for you! I have to say after getting the timers to work, We're really enjoying this DVR. Our SD satellite dvr has become the "backup" dvr for anything that's on broadcast tv. Being able to record shows in their full HD glory is just great.

I'm amazed that people want to upgrade their hard drive. I look at My recordings and i have 20+ recordings on it and still 20 hours of HD and 100+ of SD recording time left. I mean really, how much TV can you watch? And i am like Jim, i get occasional reboots but this is a minor annoyance. I still love my DVR and those that don't have it yet and are waiting for the bugs to get worked out, well don't hesitate, the bugs are few and minor. It ain't perfect but at $250 its a steal, bugs and all.

chapelrun... or anyone else upgrading drive.

I have not opened mine up yet, but I was wondering what happens if you take out a drive with recordings on it and replace it with a 500 Gig then recorded some on the new drive.

What happens if you put the old drive back in?
Are the old recordings avaliable? (when you put the old drive back in)
Or does it just format it?

I'm just thinking that if I open mine up and extend HDD cables out the back of the PAL.
I could just swap multiple drives around when they are full.

Kind of like swapping out a VCR tape when you want to keep it.
Or like using an external USB drive (feature that is not supported yet)

Thanks SGreat idea! I'm thinking I may use one drive for storing recordings I want to keep for a long time and the other for storing the daily and weekly timer recordings.

Both the power and the SATA cable are connectorized on BOTH ends, meaning that they can be replaced with longer ones, if needed. I have a couple of foot-long SATA cables around here, so I'll use one of those. The power cable appears long enough that the drive could be set just to the right or front of the unit and it would reach. But I believe this cable has standard PC-type connectors on both ends, so purchasing a longer one should be straightforward. Also note that once the cover is removed, it can be placed back on the unit and will hold itself up with about a 0.5-inch gap, which would be perfect for running cables through. We'll just need to be sure to unplug the unit before swapping drives.

I'm pretty sure the old recordings remain around, but I will test this when I open my unit again and will let you know.

Thanks!

Reg

I'm amazed that people want to upgrade their hard drive. I look at My recordings and i have 20+ recordings on it and still 20 hours of HD and 100+ of SD recording time left. I mean really, how much TV can you watch? And i am like Jim, i get occasional reboots but this is a minor annoyance. I still love my DVR and those that don't have it yet and are waiting for the bugs to get worked out, well don't hesitate, the bugs are few and minor. It ain't perfect but at $250 its a steal, bugs and all.

I can say that I have a Comcrap DVR and its only good for 16-20 hours. Most of the time its fine but I have had to delete some unwatched shows to make room. I would like to load it up with a seires or two for the summer months. I also record something if it looks good just because I can, I may watch 5min of it and trash it. So for me I will most likley change out the drive to atleast 500gigs.

Jay

I'm amazed that people want to upgrade their hard drive. I look at My recordings and i have 20+ recordings on it and still 20 hours of HD and 100+ of SD recording time left. I mean really, how much TV can you watch? Blessed are the tinkerers . . .

This would not be necessary if the USB port was enabled for addition of external storage drives as was cited in the original specification, but not implemented in this gen-1 product. Many people, including myself, like to collect a partial or full season's worth of a show before starting to watch. I do this with highly serialized shows so I can avoid having to suffer through repeat episodes and hiatus weeks used to stretch out a season.

In order to do this, you need storage capacity -- internal, external, whatever.

Just to say again so people don't think everyone's box is bad, I've had mine since Dec. 23 and the only problem I"ve had is that one of my recordings said there was a problem with a certain recording due to lost signal.

I'm in the Mpls, MN area and the TV Guide portion has worked perfect as far as I can tell. Also I did update the firmware right away.
People in MPLS/St. Paul area, please verify this statement. If it is true then the issue is related to TVGOS.

Don't be so quick to leap without any data. There are plenty of people here who are having reboot issues. Let's see them do the factory restore and report on the success/failure before drawing conclusions. Just like they did with the "turn off the update" test.

OK, guys. It's your turn. Care to check this one out?

I did a restore a few days ago and had a reboot while watching (not recording) last night. Still have updates enabled. May try that next.

I think if a poll is restarted, the city or DMA market where you get your TVGOS info from should be included.

For instance, people in a ABC market are reporting no problems while people in XYZ market are having freeze and reboot problems.

Much better than some saying I'm having a problem and others say no problems here.

Seems like it could be useful info.

And any owner voting should also make a post with information such as that above or some identifying info of their unit, if it's a bad lot, and indicate how they voted.

Reason: anyone could just click to vote and throw off count.

Any update on the final poll?

Again, let me know via AVS Private Message.
I think that a poll will be helpful to find a solution to the reboot/lock up problem. Based on several year experience with the Sony DHG's I believe that the cause is related to TVGOS and probably not a design error. Thus I think the poll needs to somehow help localize the problem areas. Since we can't list every US zip code or DMA in a poll, I suggest the following:

Have you experienced a reboot/look up with the DTV Pal DVR?

a) no
b) yes, I live in the North West
c) yes, I live in the South West
d) yes, I live in the South Central
e) yes, I live in the South East
f) yes, I live in the North East
g) yes, I live in the Mid West

Unless I see numerous objections over the next few hours I plan on sending this to Ken.

Regards,

-phil

...
Unless I see numerous objections over the next few hours I plan on sending this to Ken...

I don't think this refines the location enough. Probably need the call sign of the CBS station.

I don't think this refines the location enough. Probably need the call sign of the CBS station.

The AVS poll capabilities have a limited number of options (I believe the max is 8). We cannot include the call letters for every CBS station in the poll.

Remember the poll is just a quick method for people to vote, it is not intended for limitless feedback. Users with problems will be encouraged to post more details in the poll thread but the poll cannot comprehend all of the possible combinations of extenuating circumstances.

-phil

p.s. If one or a couple of regions have more failures than others then that could indicate a good place to start looking for TVGOS issues. Or it could mean that one region has bought more DTV Pal DVRs than the others, but it will give us something to look into.

a) no
b) yes, I live in the North West
c) yes, I live in the South West
d) yes, I live in the South Central
e) yes, I live in the South East
f) yes, I live in the North East
g) yes, I live in the Mid West

I don't know if that would be a good representation. If you're getting yes in regions, no should also be noted with region.

I don't know if that would be a good representation. If you're getting yes in regions, no should also be noted with region.
I agree but again we are limited by the number of possible candidates in the poll. Having yes and no for each region would be ideal but not feasible.

-phil

I don't know if that would be a good representation. If you're getting yes in regions, no should also be noted with region.

It looks like I was wrong about the maximum candidates, there can be up to 10, so here's a new proposal:

a) no, I live in the West
b) no, I live in the South
c) no, I live in the East
d) no, I live in the North
e) yes, I live in the North West
f) yes, I live in the South West
g) yes, I live in the South Central
h) yes, I live in the South East
i) yes, I live in the North East
j) yes, I live in the Mid West

Again this is not ideal but It does give some granularity. If anyone has a good idea to refine this, please suggest.

-phil

I had one reboot when I first started using mine on Christmas Eve, but none since.
My local CBS station is not broadcasting TVGOS yet - they are waiting for the equipment.
So at least one of us (me) has had at least one reboot with no TVGOS (PSIP only).

It looks like I was wrong about the maximum candidates, there can be up to 10, so here's a new proposal:

a) no, I live in the West
b) no, I live in the South
c) no, I live in the East
d) no, I live in the North
e) yes, I live in the North West
f) yes, I live in the South West
g) yes, I live in the South Central
h) yes, I live in the South East
i) yes, I live in the North East
j) yes, I live in the Mid West

Again this is not ideal but It does give some granularity. If anyone has a good idea to refine this, please suggest.

-phil
Phil, I like the idea but the responses need to be balanced -- 5 yes and 5 no covering 5 regions. Otherwise the data has no direct comparative meaning.

How about for the 5 regions, something like: N East, S East, Mid-West, West, South.

Then go one step further and in your intro post, list the 5 regions and the states that belong to each. That way no-one will be guessing which region they belong to.

Getting good data requires some work. Otherwise garbage-in = garbage-out.

I don't see how the problem can be simply related to TVGOS provider, since I have had one box that rebooted and another that did not IN THE SAME HOUSE. Not only was the provider the same, but the antenna, cabling, etc.

That said, I'm not saying the problem isn't caused by TVGOS. I'm only saying that trying to pin it down to a set of CBS stations likely will not bear fruit...