so it seems that the trouble is mostly when watching a recorded program while it's recording something else.

Nope. Mine only reboots while watching live TV.

Upgraded through USB, peice of cake. I can now set manual M-F timers, before the update I got an error message when setting up manual M-F timers. 12hr PSIP data only, we don't have TVGOS in our market yet.

We'll see if it helps with reboots but I'm not holding my breath. Hopefully F203 will fix everything and they will release it before the warranty runs out on the first buyers.

I think to help Dish solve this issue in a timely fashion would depend on how much data they have on issues.

If we could come up with some kind of form that could be filled in online or off to collate settings such as firmware, type of output used, airflow, what you were recording / playing back , timers, guide info, channel / network you were on, type of antenna setup you have, signal and most of all include a list of where all the settings are at.

I know it may be a bit of work, but until we have some kind of consistency in our reporting, all these posts are just a stab in the dark.

Hopefully after a few people do this we may see a trend. Heck, it could be as simple as some network that has left their broadcast flag on (like they have on other occasions) and the DVR not knowing what to do with the packet, so instead of ignoring it just reboots or locks up. I will certainly track mine when it arrives and hope to see other suggestions of variables we could look at to try and piece this mystery together. This would lead to a speedier firmware fix

Incidentally those who have called for a tracking number, who did you contact? I emailed the tech dept, but did not get a response. It would be nice to know when to pick it up.

Something that is really strange, and frustrating, is some people talking with CS and being told there is no history of such problems. When we know for sure people are being shipped replacement units for said issue.

Next person contacting CS and getting a replacement shipped should ask that CS rep to enter it in the database then have same rep pull up the database and confirm it is present.

Hello,

I h ave a DTVPal DVR that uses the TVGOS TV GUide system for it's guide. My problem is that I only get 12-14 hours of guide data. I am in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and only Fox-4 populates with 7 days of data. PBS-13 populates with 2 days of data. ALL other channels have 12-14 hours (the rest of the days just say No Information).

I called Dish. They want me to send it back, but as the monster long thread suggests, this doesn't always fix the problem. Also, the guide works for a couple channels, so I am prone to think it is either firmware or the CBS broadcast (my signal strength is 98 and I have tried my zip, Dallas zips, and 00000).

Is anyone else having these problems? Does anyone have any suggestions?

Please help!

Thanks!
LarryT

ljtellef, If you're still reading this forum, I have the exact same problem. I live in Dallas also, I use my own zip (75287) and have the original firmware (F201). I'm sort of assuming that the CBS station here in Dallas is not transmitting the TVGOS information correctly. They are the same station that I contacted several times a few months ago because their time kept drifting forward (which affected my DTVPAL converter box timer...because it bases it's time on that station). Hopefully they'll get it fixed as time goes on.

I rarely set recordings more than a week in advance so it's not a big deal for me I guess. Also, I'm so used to programming VCR's that it doesn't bother me if I have to set a timer based on the start and end time (the old fashioned way). I'm just thrilled to have the other DVR capabilities of pausing live TV and having HD recordings.

You're right. the L has been changed to a K in both the fw and bootstrap versions.

This does give me hope it IS a software issue and they are fairly close to releasing a fix.

You should have more success duplicating these problems once you trade your unit with Building over on Satellite Guys.

did i ever get a response from him?

Right away you see he got a review unit with updated firmware whereas everybody reporting here is receiving units with the 201 firmware. They are not stupid enough to send him one of the boxes they are shipping to everybody else.

Actually, I didn't elaborate on my post. Shortly after I configured my unit, it said something about an update having been applied. However, and this is where it gets a bit weird, I hadn't yet connected my Ethernet cable.

The pics of his (Dave Zatz) unboxing showed the unit was in a previously opened box (it was double taped). I wonder if his unit was in the sealed bag? I am going to guess no.

I don't believe the DVR had previously been removed from the box. The DVR was in a sealed bag, as were several other items. But I am not sure - did everyone's unit ship with the smartcard? And was it pre-inserted?

---

We do know I have slightly different firmware label/number, but we don't know exactly what that means. I'm checking on it - and as I said in the comments on my blog, I'll refrain from additional coverage until we know exactly how/if it's different.

---

EDIT: Made a slight change. The box could have been opened, but what I meant is I don't believe the DVR had been removed. It appeared flawless in the taped bag.

did i ever get a response from him?I don't know. Did he send you a PM?

I know one thing: If I were someone with a problem unit (I'm not) and you offered to trade with me, I would contact you in a minute to see if you would really make the trade. The reason is that your unit seems to be a known good one and what Dish is shipping out as replacements seem to be either new units with their high problem rate or worse, returned known-bad units.

EDIT: Made a slight change. The box could have been opened, but what I meant is I don't believe the DVR had been removed. It appeared flawless in the taped bag.

Taped bag? If I remember correctly, my bag was shrink wrapped, and I had to cut it to remove the unit. I can't recall if it had the smart card in or not, and can't tell from the picture.

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/6599/threesx7.jpg

So I live in an area where I pick up two DMAs (Baltimore and DC). For the first few weeks of use, I was getting TVGOS data for both markets. That changed in the last two days. Now I only get TVGOS data for one or the other. And it depends on the zip. A DC zip gets me TVGOS data for DC channels only, and vice versa. I just set my zip to all zeros, and will have to wait to see if I get both markets, or none as a result.

Taped bag? If I remember correctly, my bag was shrink wrapped, and I had to cut it to remove the unit.

Mine was definitely not shrink wrapped. It's possible it came from a different batch, not sure if it's earlier or later. I'll try to find out more next week when the DISH folks are back in the office. And, by the way, this is exactly why I posted the photo of the system info so we could all compare notes.

This particular thread is out of control (nearly 2k posts?!), so I'd appreciate if folks could leave specific things for me to look at on my blog or send me a DM. Seems like the primary issue to research is these reboots/crashes - which I haven't seen yet, but I've only put maybe 4 hours of viewing/recording in since getting this unpacked yesterday.

Mine was definitely not shrink wrapped. It's possible it came from a different batch, not sure if it's earlier or later. I'll try to find out more next week when the DISH folks are back in the office. And, by the way, this is exactly why I posted the photo of the system info so we could all compare notes.


My receiver ID number is within 2000 of yours (assuming they are sequential) so I don't know if I buy the batch theory. My gut feeling is your unit was pre-checked (evidence being the no shrink wrapped bag, re-taped box, updated firmware). I will keep checking your blog to see the Dish response to that question.

Interestingly, one of the members of AVS who got a replacement unit for his faulty original noted that it was not in the shrink wrap bag, and in a previously opened box.

Actually, I didn't elaborate on my post. Shortly after I configured my unit, it said something about an update having been applied. However, and this is where it gets a bit weird, I hadn't yet connected my Ethernet cable.



I don't believe the DVR had previously been removed from the box. The DVR was in a sealed bag, as were several other items. But I am not sure - did everyone's unit ship with the smartcard? And was it pre-inserted?

---

We do know I have slightly different firmware label/number, but we don't know exactly what that means. I'm checking on it - and as I said in the comments on my blog, I'll refrain from additional coverage until we know exactly how/if it's different.

---

EDIT: Made a slight change. The box could have been opened, but what I meant is I don't believe the DVR had been removed. It appeared flawless in the taped bag.

My DVR arrived in a blue shrink wrapped bag (I had to use a pair of scissors to cut it open) with the Smartcard pre-inserted. I haven't had any problems with it since it arrived three days ago, but, then again, I'm not home long enough to play around with it. I have been programming the unit to record some shows while I'm at work and so far, it has recorded each show correctly. I've watched maybe six hrs of live tv over the past 3 days and have not had any reboots, freezes or lock-ups. I'm hoping the unit continues to "behave properly," I want to cancel cable so bad.

Mine was definitely not shrink wrapped. It's possible it came from a different batch, not sure if it's earlier or later. I'll try to find out more next week when the DISH folks are back in the office. And, by the way, this is exactly why I posted the photo of the system info so we could all compare notes.


I have been wondering. I received mine on 12/23 and at first it appeared shrink-wrapped, but after removing it, it was in fact taped up. I thought nothing of it, but I am wondering now if Dish is recycling the returned units. Maybe we need to get a database setup and before anyone sends defective units back, make sure to record the serial numbers and smart card numbers. I would not be surprised if units are sent back to Dish and sent back out as new once they are re-packed and firmware set back to the original. That would irritate me to no end if that was the case. I did not pay $250 for refurbished equipment. Am I the only one who thinks this is possible?

Unless they let it run for a few days they wouldn't know for sure if the unit was good. Mine worked perfect for 3 days before the first reboot, no reboots since today's firmware upgrade. I'm giving it a "torture test" right now recording 2 shows at once for 3hrs straight.

Mine came shrink wrapped with card inserted.

Thanks, Chuck44, kerrym80 and avnstf. Based on your posts, it looks like the problem is likely with KPIX rather than with the unit. Actually, I'm just breaking in the DVR for my parents, and I'll be installing it at their house in the Sacramento area in a few days. It's going to replace a VCR that recently died. Dad is 92, and I didn't want him to have to grapple with a defective DVR.

Bob

Update: I traded e-mails with the KPIX engineer. He said that they've been having problems with the TVGOS feed, and hope to have it corrected by Monday.

Bob

I wish the DTVPal DVR had it's own sub forum because this thread is getting crazy long.

I think this IS the DTVPal DVR forum. What do you mean?:confused:

. I would not be surprised if units are sent back to Dish and sent back out as new once they are re-packed and firmware set back to the original. That would irritate me to no end if that was the case. I did not pay $250 for refurbished equipment. Am I the only one who thinks this is possible?

I think it's possible! Dish's experience is -leasing- boxes which may have been returned. I wonder if they know it's illegal (AFAIK) to -sell- a return as new?

If you are talking about the TV Guide service. There are no plans at this time for us to carry it.
I have not even heard mention of the service for almost 2 years and then only once.

Bob Maupin.
Chief Engineer.
WOIO/WUAB.


But I got my unit on wend. and no problems so far!

...I said what I meant. When you attenuate a signal without changing the characteristic impedance, you lower the level of the wanted signal, but, unfortunately, noise does not get reduced. It's just one of those things that makes communications such a challenge...

If the statement, "lower the level of the wanted signal, but, unfortunately, noise does not get reduced," refers to the absolute noise level, I would say the noise is attenuated the same amount as the signal.

If it refers to either signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) or relative noise level then the statement is more correct.

I am not sure why the characteristic impedance is mentioned or matters here.

I should mention that the two units I received on Jan. 20 were Software Ver. F201TALD-N and Boot Strap Ver. 1011TALD, and that so far I have not experienced any problems.

Note that the 'K' software/boot strap versions MAY have actually been an earlier - even pre production - version as 'K' comes before 'L' alphabetically, or from a different production line/plant. My two units appear to be from the same lot as those reporting problems, however.

Donald1800

Just got done "chatting" with their tech support. They won't send me a new one until they receive the old one and the original receipt. I thought I remember some people getting the replacement first before having to send one back. I don't really want to be without. Besides, I didn't get a receipt with the unit and I ordered via phone. How's that going to work? I suppose a credit card statement might have to do. I'm going to call their support via phone and see if I can work out something different that way. What a pain.

Oh, and by the way, they won't admit that this is a known issue.

Actually, that would only be true if people accessing AVS were a random sample of the total people having purchased the device in the country. I'm afraid we probably represent the nerdiest percentage of the country.
Therefore, you can't conclude that folks posting on AVS
can predict the failure rate of all purchases of the unit.

I don't see how the nerdiness of someone affects failure rate? And for that matter, whether or not they post on AVS Forums. Either it reboots/hangs or it doesn't. I preordered at 9 AM on the November 19th, and have done nothing other than plug it in and peform initial setup. I've had zero problems so far.

We'll see if it helps with reboots but I'm not holding my breath. Hopefully F203 will fix everything and they will release it before the warranty runs out on the first buyers.


There is a parallel situation ongoing with the DTVPal Digital converter box. Its unique feature is an autotune timer, but it doesn't work as advertised. They offer new firmwares to increase timer reliability, but the only way to update the firmware is to physically exchange the box. They've been pretty good with performing exchanges even though the boxes are out of warranty because a fix wasn't available during the warranty period. Hopefully that policy will extend to the DVR if it ends up being a hardware defect.

Just got done "chatting" with their tech support. They won't send me a new one until they receive the old one and the original receipt. I thought I remember some people getting the replacement first before having to send one back. I don't really want to be without. Besides, I didn't get a receipt with the unit and I ordered via phone. How's that going to work? I suppose a credit card statement might have to do. I'm going to call their support via phone and see if I can work out something different that way. What a pain.

Oh, and by the way, they won't admit that this is a known issue.

The original statement to me also was that they would not send a new one until I'd returned the old. I was waiting for a return authorization when a couple of days later a second unit showed up at my house. It appears that the managers are given quite a bit of leeway in how they handle this.

If the statement, "lower the level of the wanted signal, but, unfortunately, noise does not get reduced," refers to the absolute noise level, I would say the noise is attenuated the same amount as the signal.

If it refers to either signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) or relative noise level then the statement is more correct.

I am not sure why the characteristic impedance is mentioned or matters here.

What we were getting at here was my mis-read of his post and the correction i made of his "Quote".
I went back and looked at what I said, and RegGuheert is right.

This was just a better (more detailed) explination of his post.
"you reduce the signal level without reducing the noise." did not make sense to me when I read it the first time.

Yes, you did mention this. How do you KNOW this? As Ken H correctly stated, some equipment measures signal quality while other equipment measures signal strength
I was referencing my dBmV signal levels compaired to my PAL Signal %
If I remember correctly 2 different channels -9.7dBmV and -0.1dBmV (power level) are both reported as 91% on the PAL signal meter.
Thus the assumption of Quality not level.

I will grab my meter and do some readings tomorrow.

I think this IS the DTVPal DVR forum. What do you mean?:confused:
Actually, this is a THREAD in the HDTV recorders FORUM (or subforum)...I suspect he meant that he would like a DTVPal DVR FORUM in which there are separate threads on individual topics...

The two high-def DVR threads that I follow have more than 13000 and 5000 posts, respectively...2000 isn't very much, by comparison, though this thread ought to eventually exceed those numbers, if the unit is successful..

If the statement, "lower the level of the wanted signal, but, unfortunately, noise does not get reduced," refers to the absolute noise level, I would say the noise is attenuated the same amount as the signal.

If it refers to either signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) or relative noise level then the statement is more correct.The noise figure of any passive device is equal to its attenuation. (References: 1 (http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/noisefigure.cfm), 2 (http://www.qsl.net/va3iul/Noise/noise.html), 3 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/faqDetail.jspx?cc=LT&lc=eng&ckey=1000002229:epsg:faq&nid=-536902734.536881019.02&id=1000002229:epsg:faq))

Since Noise Figure is (Sin/Nin)/(Sout/Nout) (but expressed in dB)

Where:

Sin is input signal level
Sout is output signal level
Nin is input noise level
Nout is output noise level

and the Attenuation of an attenutor is (Sin/Sout) (often expressed in dB)

Equating these two gives (Sin/Sout) = (Sin/Nin)/(Sout/Nout)

Algebraic manipulation gives Nout=Nin

Hence my statement "When you attenuate a signal without changing the characteristic impedance, you lower the level of the wanted signal, but, unfortunately, noise does not get reduced."I am not sure why the characteristic impedance is mentioned or matters here.I mention characteristic impedance since we are discussing wideband power splitters, and I wanted to head off the argument that a filter is a passive device that can reduce the noise more than the signal, thus IMPROVING the signal to noise ratio. However, filters do this by mismatching the impedance only at frequencies other than where the wanted signal is found, thus attenuating noise without attenuating the wanted signal. Unfortunately, you cannot do much filtering in the distribution system that needs to contain all the television bands.

I was referencing my dBmV signal levels compaired to my PAL Signal %
If I remember correctly 2 different channels -9.7dBmV and -0.1dBmV (power level) are both reported as 91% on the PAL signal meter.
Thus the assumption of Quality not level.

I will grab my meter and do some readings tomorrow.Thanks! I'm sure you mentioned this previously, but that might have been 1000 posts back! :D

I will point out that the Microtune tuner architecture (assuming it uses the approach found in Patent #5,737,035 (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5737035.html), and I suspect it does) allows for individual channels to be filtered out and then amplified using a gain control amplifier. Assumedly they are trying to scale the signal so that it provides a full-scale swing into an A/D converter.

So, another possible explanation of the meter in the DTVPal DVR is that they are measuring the signal level as is comes out of the A/D converter.

It's also entirely possible that you are correct and they calculate BER (or some other figure-of-merit that relates to signal quality). I'm just not sure we can tell from the outside. Another poster had spoken of correlating the amount of pixelation with the reported meter level, but I couldn't tell if he was referring to the DTVPal DVR or not.

Of course, I'm interested to hear more about your measurements if you get a chance to make them! TIA!

Recieved DVR on 12/24/08.
DVR was wrapped in taped plastic bag with plastic bag warnings all over it in several different languages.

Reciever ID: R188005xxxx-xx
Software Version: F202TAKD-N Updated the first day via ethernet connection.
Bootstrap Version: 1011TAKD
Processor ID: 28528032

Number of power cycles: 27
Number of exceptions: 0

HDMI out to 50" plasma. Composite out to Phillips 3575H DVDR with hard drive.
Placed in well ventilated shelf.

Update set to on for the first two weeks and then I turned it off.


PSIP only in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Aproximately 12 hours of populated EPG.

I have had one reboot and one split recording. Both happened in the middle of the night. Both happened within the first two weeks.

No lockups.
No lockups or reboots since I turned updates to off.

The one reboot I had, I woke up in the middle of the night for whatever reason and started watching something that I had recorded. About 5 minutes in, it rebooted then went to live tv. I went to my recordings and resumed my recording correctly for a few mintutes then went back to bed. I have no idea what time it was or if it coincided with the update time.

My "Daily Schedule" screen shows 30 timers from Jan 15-30. Today is the 24th. 23 completed, one stopped, one deleted and five pending. I included this info to reflect workload.

I am not an archiver. I watch and delete and try to keep my available HD recording time above 20 hours.

So after a month's use, I would have to give it very high marks. I don't know if I just got a good box or if I haven't introduced it to the environment that makes it buggy e.g., hdmi handshake, TVGOS, etc. I have been reading through this thread and it is hard to find a common denominator for the lock-ups and reboots.

If I hadn't been reading this thread I would be screaming from the mountain tops what a great box this is. Also Dish's behavior has disapointed me. Especially us pre-orderers, since our warranty started the day we ordered it on Nov 28th. I only have 30 days left. I understand that early adopters need to be patient so all the bugs can be worked out. But it is easier to be patient when unit is under warranty.

I have been wondering. I received mine on 12/23 and at first it appeared shrink-wrapped, but after removing it, it was in fact taped up. I thought nothing of it, but I am wondering now if Dish is recycling the returned units. Maybe we need to get a database setup and before anyone sends defective units back, make sure to record the serial numbers and smart card numbers. I would not be surprised if units are sent back to Dish and sent back out as new once they are re-packed and firmware set back to the original. That would irritate me to no end if that was the case. I did not pay $250 for refurbished equipment. Am I the only one who thinks this is possible?

this is what I'm thinking, they must be making changes in returned boxes and and sending them out which I'm sure is against the law to sell the box as new. If a product is returned it can't be sold as new even if repaired, must be marketed at refurbished. I got a Magellan 4250 for $129.00 that way and it works fine.

The amount of usage and patterns of usage will vary so greatly between users that I don't think the numbers of reboots and lockups will tell very much. For instance, if I were to watch live and/or recorded TV for three hours a day I believe I would have a greater number of problems with my DVR than I encounter now (as well as being a negligent husband and father).

In my opinion, there is no scientific way to determine anything meaningful without having access to information from DISH network. Any statistics generated from such a study should be placed in the speculation thread.

I do think it is interesting that the Zatz DVR indicates a different version of the firmware exists. It appears to demonstrate that they are working on something. With the K instead of the L, could it possibly be an earlier version of the firmware that has been thoroughly tested and found stable on that specific hardware? The revisions to the firmware may have been made to correct problems in the hardware of production units.

Now I should be posting in the speculation thread.

Well, no kidding??? Why don't you contact your friends then over at Dish and see if they'll just email you the data? :D
Really, this poll wasn't intended to be truly scientific, but rather eliminate one variable...those that have come here after having problems with their box. As per the average number of reboots, once again, not intended to be scientific but more interesting than "yes, my box has had problems".

Recieved DVR on 12/24/08.
DVR was wrapped in taped plastic bag with plastic bag warnings all over it in several different languages.

Reciever ID: R1880050387-91
Software Version: F202TAKD-N Updated the first day via ethernet connection.
Bootstrap Version: 1011TAKD
Processor ID: 28528032


In view of the fact that no update is available for those of us with the F202TALD version, could it be possible that Dish has made a change to the hardware that requires slightly different code and that is the reason for the F202TAKD f/w?

In view of the fact that no update is available for those of us with the F202TALD version, could it be possible that Dish has made a change to the hardware that requires slightly different code and that is the reason for the F202TAKD f/w?

Just so I understand correctly and don't have to read through these threads again.

Are you saying that some units have been recieved with the F202TALD version and there was no further update available?

This thread has too many posts to follow (~100 just since yesterday) Perhaps we should create a second thread that forbids extraneous discussion and focuses JUST on the DVR. Perhaps limit it to technical-only discussion.

QUESTION: Does the DTVpal guide go 14 days into the future?

QUESTION: Does the DTVpal guide go 14 days into the future?

The FAQ in post 1 of this thread has a lot of good information. Please look at FAQ #3 in that post.

-phil

.... I received mine on 12/23 ....

If you got yours on the 23rd I doubt it was a return since they were just starting to show up at that time.

This is the same outfit that charged credit cards before they had a product to ship so anyting is possible. As someone pointed out Dish is used to leasing hardware and since they own it think nothing of giving someone a used box.

I got mine on the 24th and it was in a heat sealed bag with two peices of tape about 3" long folded over one edge.

Interesting that "K" software boxes came in a taped bag (based on two posts) and "L" software boxes were in a heat sealed bag. What SW do you have?

For the initial purchase the unit should be NEW. For replacements most people can get away with refurbished.

No reboots/lockups for me since the F202 update so far...

Interesting that "K" software boxes came in a taped bag (based on two posts) and "L" software boxes were in a heat sealed bag. What SW do you have?

Software Version: F202TALD-N
Bootstrap: 1011TALD

I loaded latest code when I got my unit. The bugs list is growing fast.

1 TV guide not working. It works fine on my old LG tuners so I know it is broadcast in my area. I just reset everything and will see if that helps tomorrow. I should note my guide worked on my DTV Pal converter box also. So it is just this unit not working yet.

2 I had 3 shows in my recordings list. The last one had the description that was for the second one instead of its own. The show was correct, just the description wrong.

3 Had to set recordings in correct sequence as I described before. Event timers vs using guide.

4 Had my first reboot. That means 1 in 3 days. It happened when I was watching a recording not live tv.

5 Had sound vanish a few times. Changing live to dvr or powering down got it fixed. (this happens on my lastest Samsung tuner also, but never on my older tuners!) When sound is gone it is gone from recordings and from live tv. When fixed both start to work.

I should note I am using component and analog audio connections for now.
I ran short on HDMI cables.

I did not spend long with the code that came on the unit but this update despite the problems seems better. If it keeps improving it might actually work in about 6 months.

Things I really like about the box:

1 reboots. I want these minimized, but the fact that it reboots is actually a nice feature. When my LG or Samsung go south they just hang with no video on any channel etc, and I have to power down and up to fix it.

2 I can play a show I am recording. My lg could do that but I had to do one or the other: time shift a bit or record the show and decide before hand.

3 glad they have the text size feature. I set guide text to small and wish it could go even smaller, but I have a projector.

4 Glad the tuner is good. I have no other HD ones that are as good. My next best is the Samsung but it is just barely usable where I am with very bad multipath.

5 Great to have ethernet code updates. My first tuner that can be improved that easy.

6 Starting to like the remote and the feature set for the most part. I will still use my LG when I can due to the firewire out and the other features like editiing. But this is great just as a tuner alone if they fix the bugs soon.

My DTVpal DVR was delivered on Jan 20. I’ve been playing with it, heavily, ever since. I have recorded over 20 shows. I love it.

I’ve had some minor glitches that I can live with. But yesterday I had my first freeze. I believe that happened because I was watching delayed “live tv” turned the TV off and left the delayed showing on until it couldn’t go any further. When I turned the TV back on, the play icon was on the screen, but the picture was frozen. I did not reboot it then, because I had other programs recording. They all came out perfectly, so the machine was working on some level. But I couldn’t get off the frozen screen. So I unplugged it. It fixed the freeze.

Here’s the real problem: ever since I unplugged the unit to reboot it, I have been experiencing a 10-15 second delay while the unit is trying to lock in. After that delay, the screen comes back, and everything is fine. It is only happening when it is trying to lock onto an image, either the full screen or the small one in the recordings windows. So going through the guide is no problem. But if I want to go up and down the channels manually, it takes forever.

I remember reading that someone here mentioned this long delay problem. But I can’t find the post and am not sure if it was ever resolved. Fifteen seconds seems like a lifetime, so if there is some way to fix this I want to.

I have not upgraded to 202 because some people mentioned that their problems started then. So I’m hesitant to do that. But I will if forced.

Does anyone have suggestions?

My DTVpal DVR was delivered on Jan 20. I’ve been playing with it, heavily, ever since. I have recorded over 20 shows. I love it.

I’ve had some minor glitches that I can live with. But yesterday I had my first freeze. I believe that happened because I was watching delayed “live tv” turned the TV off and left the delayed showing on until it couldn’t go any further. When I turned the TV back on, the play icon was on the screen, but the picture was frozen. I did not reboot it then, because I had other programs recording. They all came out perfectly, so the machine was working on some level. But I couldn’t get off the frozen screen. So I unplugged it. It fixed the freeze.

Here’s the real problem: ever since I unplugged the unit to reboot it, I have been experiencing a 10-15 second delay while the unit is trying to lock in. After that delay, the screen comes back, and everything is fine. It is only happening when it is trying to lock onto an image, either the full screen or the small one in the recordings windows. So going through the guide is no problem. But if I want to go up and down the channels manually, it takes forever.

I remember reading that someone here mentioned this long delay problem. But I can’t find the post and am not sure if it was ever resolved. Fifteen seconds seems like a lifetime, so if there is some way to fix this I want to.

I have not upgraded to 202 because some people mentioned that their problems started then. So I’m hesitant to do that. But I will if forced.

Does anyone have suggestions?
I would do a Format. If that didn't help I would reset to Factory Defaults.

I loaded latest code when I got my unit. The bugs list is growing fast.

2 I had 3 shows in my recordings list. The last one had the description that was for the second one instead of its own. The show was correct, just the description wrong.
I think the problem is that when a recording does not have an description (either because it didn't have one in the guide, or more likely didn't get stored for some reason, i.e. bug), the description from the last recording you looked at is kept on the display. In other words, it's not clearing the display when there is no description.

For example, I seen something like this: three recordings 1, 2, and 3 with 2 having no description. Going from 1 to 2, still shows the description from 1. Going from 3 to 2, still shows the description from 3. Well, at least the recoding title is still correct. ;)

5 Had sound vanish a few times. Changing live to dvr or powering down got it fixed. (this happens on my lastest Samsung tuner also, but never on my older tuners!) When sound is gone it is gone from recordings and from live tv. When fixed both start to work.

I saw something similar last night. We were watching a recording. The sound just stopped. I tried rewinding, and the sound came back but stopped as soon as it got to the same spot. I finally got it to work by stopping playback then hitting resume. I should mention that the signal must have been marginal when the recording was made because it pixellating all through the movie. (This was probably before I get my antenna set in the attic from the living room.)

I think the problem is that when a recording does not have an description (either because it didn't have one in the guide, or more likely didn't get stored for some reason, i.e. bug), the description from the last recording you looked at is kept on the display. In other words, it's not clearing the display when there is no description.


This sounds reasonable. Yesterday I had a recording that displayed the Ethernet data (which I had in fact recently viewed) instead of a description.

Hi all, newly registered, but I've been following this thread for a few weeks now. Great info, thanks to all.

I placed my order on 1/16/09 and received my box yesterday (1/23/09).

My box is double taped, like the Dave Zatz unit. Also, the plastic bag mine came in was NOT vacuum packed, it was taped. I wonder if I have a unit that one of you guys returned :)

Anyways it's only been running for a hour or so, I set 3 timers for later this afternoon, we'll see how it goes.

One thing I noticed that I haven't seen reported: I don't have an hd tv, I have a big Mitsubishi tube. I put the output of the Pal DVR into my VCR via the component inputs (yellow, red, white). The output of my VCR goes to my tv via component cable. The reason I did this is because I wanted to keep my Zenith DTV converter box connected for now also, anyways the VCR will take the 2 inputs and feed them to a single input to the TV.

When I select 4:3 ratio for my SDTV settings in the Pal DVR, I only get the equivalent of a 25inch display on my 35inch TV, which kinda sucks. I changed the ratio to 16:9 and the display stretches to the top of the TV screen, but the sides of the picture are a couple-few inches inside the TV screen and they are bowed inwards, distorted.... Anyways the Zenith DTV converter box doesn't have a problem displaying the entire pictur on my TV (in Zenith box "cropped mode"). I'm going to try to bypass the VCR with the Pal DVR output directly to the TV, but I don't think that's the problem.

Has anyone else seen this distortion on an SD tv when in 16:9 ration???

thanks!!!!

My box is double taped, like the Dave Zatz unit. Also, the plastic bag mine came in was NOT vacuum packed, it was taped. I wonder if I have a unit that one of you guys returned :)


Can you check and see what Software Version and Boot Strap Version came on your box? The info can be found by pressing the SYS INFO botton on the remote. Thanks.

Software Version: F202TALD-N
Bootstrap: 1011TALD

Mine is similar:
Software Version: F201TALD-N
Bootstrap: 1011TALD
Received: 12/24/2008

(I haven't updated the firmware). I received mine on 12/24 in a vacuum sealed pack with a single layer of tape. So far zero issues. I reset the power cycle count on 1/3 and the current count is zero.

It will be interesting to find out what the firmware discrepancy means considering I have L and Sooner had K:
Recieved DVR on 12/24/08.

Reciever ID: R188005xxxx-xx
Software Version: F202TAKD-N Updated the first day via ethernet connection.
Bootstrap Version: 1011TAKD
Processor ID: 28528032

HDMI out
PSIP only in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Aproximately 12 hours of populated EPG.

No lockups.
No lockups or reboots since I turned updates to off.




Ordered Nov 19, received Dec 23.
Shrink-wrapped packaging, like rustycruiser (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15636030&postcount=2011) shows, not taped.
I updated 201 to 202 second day
I am using HDMI

Receiver R188005XXXX-XX
Firmware F202TALD-N
Boot strap 1011TALD
Processor ID 29237057


No reboot/freeze

This could lend more credence to the TVGOS problem. I live in OKC metro and only get PSIP.


Interesting that "K" software boxes came in a taped bag (based on two posts) and "L" software boxes were in a heat sealed bag. What SW do you have?

This is looking probable too but that is really strange that Sooner got his on 12/24 and it’s a K taped bag:confused:

Has anyone else seen this distortion on an SD tv when in 16:9 ration

Presuming your display is 4:3, with the DTVPal DVR set to 4:3, have you tried using the 'PAGE up' button to obtain a full zoomed (but side-cropped as with the Zenith HDV 420) picture?

My problem is fixed. I found the original post 1362 from Super_Chachi, who had the same problem. I followed the suggestion and did a hard reboot. And the problem is gone.

This is looking probable too but that is really strange that Sooner got his on 12/24 and it’s a K taped bag:confused:

I am too lazy to scour every post to see if there are any more K version boxes. But as far as I can tell, me and davezatz are the only ones with K version boxes.

Around December 18th I called Dish and rattled their cage a bit, looking for a UPS tracking number. They said mine would ship Jan 12 (I recieved mine Dec 24). Maybe they grabbded one off of a different stack and shipped it to me. The same stack that davezatz's box came from.

Who knows.

I wanted to add my two cents about the DVR Tech/Customer Service. I’ve contacted them five times for various things, three times via phone, twice via chat. I’ve found that two of the times, they were great. The other times, incomplete or incorrect info. My first phone call got me a work order number and an approximate date of shipping. My second one got me the date the batch was sent out and a tracking number. They had been shipped before my first phone call.

My first chat after I received the DVR was about something I wanted the box to do. I was told it couldn’t to what I wanted. My second chat walked me step-by-step through the process so I could do it.

All of my contacts were with people I was directed to because they knew about the DVR.

Bottom line: If someone at tech support is telling you that you have to return your machine first, or that the machine doesn't work in a particular way, contact them again.

I've had the DTVPal DVR for a few days and was not very pleased with it. That was before it rebooted while I was watching a recorded program. I am using this in the LA DMA and the TVGOS logo is present.

However, I have a number of other concerns with the unit:

1) It takes a few seconds for sound to return when I use the skip button on a recording. I'm trying PCM vs. DD to see if that fixes it (using HDMI to my Onkyo receiver for Audio and Video).

2) The banner stays up too long and is in the wrong place. I find top banners to be very annoying as it covers up people's faces. We should be allowed to put the banner on the bottom, change the time it stays up and select a simplified mode, which doesn't take up nearly half the screen.

3) There is no video or audio when going to the program guide. At least audio should be retained as it is jarring to have everything go silent when I'm looking at the guide.

4) The timers do not show what I'm recording, just the channel and day. At least later it shows the program name that I have recorded.

5) It takes many steps to delete a recording after I have watched it. The defaults selections seem to be off.

I previously used a HTPC to record programs as I dropped cable and its DVR almost a year ago. I wanted to be able to watch another program while recording and wanted to have more space, but this unit simply is not meeting my expectations, even w/o the rebooting problem.

The good news with the unit is that it is much more sensitive than my On-Air GT and is slightly better than my Sony TV at receiving weak stations. However, my pre-amp overcomes these issues on the On-Air GT.

However, if I could return it, I probably would. Now, it seems that I am stuck. The eBay option may eventually be utilized, but I will give it some more time.

My unit has had reboot and lockup problems from the very beginning in December. Back on Jan 4 I contacted Dish, and they agreed to replace my unit. I asked "Do I need to send you the old one first?" and they said no. On Jan 22, having not received my new unit, I asked "Where is it?" After a long time on the phone, eventually I got to someone who told me it should take 10-15 business days to receive it, and it should arrive very soon. I asked for a tracking number, and as the person was about to give it to me, the phone cut off. I didn't call back, and waited until today.

Today comes the truth. When I called today, the news is that of course I need to return the old unit to them first. So I will do that.

But I am not happy with how poorly informed the people on the phone were who "helped" me in the past.

In the month of using the thing, the reboot/lockup problem has become intolerable. When I first installed it, the power cord was not easy to reach. After having to move a huge cabinet a few times to unplug the unit to recover, I put an extension cord on it so the plug can be pulled easily. That's good, since I need to do that once or twice per day.

I left the old DTV tuner on another input to my TV, so that when the DTVpal DVR is not working, you can flip back to the other tuner. The rest of the family did that routinely almost from day 1. I was stubborn and lived with the DTVpal for a couple of weeks, but now I also refuse to watch it. Literally reboots a few times every hour, and locks up every few hours. Not good.

We'll see what the new one has to offer, if it should in fact arrive at some point.

I've had the DTVPal DVR for a few days and was not very pleased with it. That was before it rebooted while I was watching a recorded program. I am using this in the LA DMA and the TVGOS logo is present.

However, I have a number of other concerns with the unit:

1) It takes a few seconds for sound to return when I use the skip button on a recording. I'm trying PCM vs. DD to see if that fixes it (using HDMI to my Onkyo receiver for Audio and Video).
Yes, that is very annoying.
2) The banner stays up too long and is in the wrong place. I find top banners to be very annoying as it covers up people's faces. We should be allowed to put the banner on the bottom, change the time it stays up and select a simplified mode, which doesn't take up nearly half the screen.
If you want to get rid of banner sooner just press the cancel button.

3) There is no video or audio when going to the program guide. At least audio should be retained as it is jarring to have everything go silent when I'm looking at the guide.
They should have kept video in the guide just like on their satellite receivers.
But without video I do prefer to have no audio either.

4) The timers do not show what I'm recording, just the channel and day. At least later it shows the program name that I have recorded.
Since it is time based recording instead of name based it has no way to know what the timer is actually going to recod until it gets the name from the guide at the actual time it's recording.

5) It takes many steps to delete a recording after I have watched it. The defaults selections seem to be off.

I am sure that the delete problem will be fixed soon.

I previously used a HTPC to record programs as I dropped cable and its DVR almost a year ago. I wanted to be able to watch another program while recording and wanted to have more space, but this unit simply is not meeting my expectations, even w/o the rebooting problem.

The good news with the unit is that it is much more sensitive than my On-Air GT and is slightly better than my Sony TV at receiving weak stations. However, my pre-amp overcomes these issues on the On-Air GT.

However, if I could return it, I probably would. Now, it seems that I am stuck. The eBay option may eventually be utilized, but I will give it some more time.

1 I've only had one reboot so far. But with all my other tuners that crash and need a manual reboot, it is caused by turning my antenna, etc such that the signal goes bad and the code in the tuner gets overwritten by video I think.

Has anyone noticed on the dtvpal dvr a relation between signal quality and the reboots. Could be harder to tell with two tuners going and only knowing the channel one is on most of the time.

2 Has anybody got ideas on the mystery button on the remote? The one below "FWD" that is not labeled or described in the manual.

This sounds reasonable. Yesterday I had a recording that displayed the Ethernet data (which I had in fact recently viewed) instead of a description.

:confused:Ethernet data? The only thing it currently gets from Ethernet is the software updates. Guide data comes from OTA TVGOS and/or PSIP. Except for a couple of moments after I first received it to upgrade to F202, mine has been disconnected from the Ethernet.

Even though the broadband data is reset, mine still goes and checks the Ethernet for something (and irritably reports that it is not connected at random times with a popup that I have to hit select to remove:mad:). I wonder if it is looking for something, because I believe you have to tell it to updates manually so it's not going to do an automatic update (which I'd rather it not do), or it's just checking for a connection.

Though I do know that it will add new stations without having to do a scan for new channels or add new channels manually. So perhaps it will do an automatic update when available (though I didn't see anyone report that their box upgraded automatically from F201 to F202 without them telling it to - or perhaps no one connected it to the Ethernet since they didn't want to upgrade).

Lost audio today while watching a recording. had to power cycle the unit to get the sound back. Apparently F202 either caused this or it just hadn't happened yet on F201.

FWIW I think the signal meter detects BER and not actual strength. I tried running the antenna through (2) 4 way splitters and an extra 25' of RG59 and it only dropped the signal meter 1-2%, I don't believe it didn't reduce the signal more than that. PBS breakup was the same even with all the signal reductions. I'm thinking that the issue may be tuner selectivity, not sensitivity. Somebody at the FCC approved PBS digital to be on CH32 while CW digital is on 33. Analog CW is channel 34. All transmitters are the same direction so I can't turn the antenna to fix the problem. None of my other tuners have a problem with it though. Hopefully it will all be fixed when PBS digital moves to CH13 (their current analog channel) on Feb 17.

2 Has anybody got ideas on the mystery button on the remote? The one below "FWD" that is not labeled or described in the manual.

No mystery, this is the "Dish" button. It brings of the Dish Home application on Dish's satellite receivers. It has no function on the DTVPal DTV, so they didn't put anything on the button. On the Dish satellite remotes, it contains the dish network logo. Notice that the DTVPal DTV led blinks when you push it (or any button on the remote regardless which mode it is in).

The button does function because it brought up the Dish Home application on my dish 625 before I changed the remote addresses between the two to be different and not 1. If fact, I set the DTVPal DTV remote's AUX mode to control the Dish 625. I couldn't do the same with the 625's remote because it is an older version (5.0 instead of 5.3) and it's AUX can not be programmed for a Dish (or DTVPal DVR) receiver.

I loaded latest code when I got my unit. The bugs list is growing fast.



2 I had 3 shows in my recordings list. The last one had the description that was for the second one instead of its own. The show was correct, just the description wrong.


Have you checked your DVR default settings? By default, the DVR is set to record programs 2 minutes before a program starts and it continues to record 1 minue after the program ends. This is probably why the discription for the last show had the desription for the second show. I had that problem too, but, once I changed the timer default settings to record on time and end on time, I didn't have the problem again.

Hopefully it will all be fixed when PBS digital moves to CH13 (their current analog channel) on Feb 17.That probably won't happen now until June 12 (unless they ask congress for another delay in May).

My firmware versions are as follows:

Software Version: F201TALD-N
Bootstrap: 1011TALD

I haven't upgraded yet.

Rustycruiser,

My firmware is as follows (I have not updated):

Software Version: F201TALD-N
Bootstrap: 1011TALD

Daniel,

Page up did the trick, I got the full screen (sides included), probably a little cropped, but that's ok, that's what the Zenith box was doing too. Thanks!!!! Maybe next time I'll break open the manual.....nah, probably not.....

PBS breakup was the same even with all the signal reductions. I'm thinking that the issue may be tuner selectivity, not sensitivity. Somebody at the FCC approved PBS digital to be on CH32 while CW digital is on 33. Analog CW is channel 34. All transmitters are the same direction so I can't turn the antenna to fix the problem. None of my other tuners have a problem with it though. Hopefully it will all be fixed when PBS digital moves to CH13 (their current analog channel) on Feb 17.

Aside:
My unit suffers occasional reboots, but even my wife can dismiss them by acknowledging that "Hey, it's a computer."

The last serious problem we have is that we suffer frequent audio and/or video hiccups on one station only. Presumably this is the same kind of breakup you're seeing on PBS in your area. Sometimes as frequently as every 30 seconds, we lose a syllable or two of audio. It's annoying, especially when it happens at just the wrong time and you miss a key word of dialog.

In our house, the problem is unique to the DTVPal DVR; a Zenith converter box in another room but fed by the same antenna receives that station perfectly. We're very close to the tower, so (as I've said here before) I hoped that an attenuator might improve the situation. Unfortunately, neither the old-fashioned electronics parts store in town nor Radio Shack have an attenuator, so I'll have to shop online.

I had a long conversation with the engineer at the one station that hiccups, and he shared the following insights:

- He and other staffers have seen the same problem -- uniquely with their station -- on some Echo*/Dish satellite receivers with built-in ATSC tuners and on some Echo*/Dish converter boxes.

- He attributes it to those receivers' inability to reject signals from adjacent channels. That would suggest a basic hardware design problem across Echo*/Dish products ...but he also reported at least one instance in which a firmware update cured a long-troublesome satellite/ATSC receiver. So he held out some hope for improvement in the DTVPal DVR through a firmware update.

- He reported that Echo*/Dish engineering was slow to accept responsibility for the problem in other receivers. That will come as no surprise to the skeptics here.

- He held out hope for improvement (in our local market) after the analog cut-off date (whenever that happens). The digital broadcasts of two of our national networks were assigned adjacent channels in the high UHF range, but they'll move back to their old non-adjacent VHF frequencies post cut-off.

So I'm shopping for an attenuator -- the station engineer suggested, as several here have, that it might help -- but I'm mostly hopeful that this problem will clear (for me) after the analog cut-off.

Jim

That probably won't happen now until June 12 (unless they ask congress for another delay in May).
I should have known that I had a bit more time before my Panny E55 was declared obsolete.. However some Democrats don't want to move the date because they will "own it" if they do.

The last serious problem we have is that we suffer frequent audio and/or video hiccups on one station only. Presumably this is the same kind of breakup you're seeing on PBS in your area. Sometimes as frequently as every 30 seconds, we lose a syllable or two of audio. It's annoying, especially when it happens at just the wrong time and you miss a key word of dialog.

In our house, the problem is unique to the DTVPal DVR; a Zenith converter box in another room but fed by the same antenna receives that station perfectly. We're very close to the tower, so (as I've said here before) I hoped that an attenuator might improve the situation. Unfortunately, neither the old-fashioned electronics parts store in town nor Radio Shack have an attenuator, so I'll have to shop online.
Yes, this is EXACTLY what's going on with my unit. All other tuners work great, even my analog reception is good. Glad to know it may possibly be fixed with firmware and hopefully before the delayed analog cutoff. BTW what was the FCC thinking when they allowed adjacent channel transmission? It's not like there isn't at least 20 other channels they could have used.

Attenuation with extra splitters/long cables hasn't resolved anything, although I have yet to try a real attenuator. What signal percentages are you getting on your good channels vs. the channel with breakup? If you find an attenuator that works, let me know which one.

I'm thinking that the issue may be tuner selectivity, not sensitivity. Somebody at the FCC approved PBS digital to be on CH32 while CW digital is on 33. Analog CW is channel 34.The last serious problem we have is that we suffer frequent audio and/or video hiccups on one station only. Presumably this is the same kind of breakup you're seeing on PBS in your area. Sometimes as frequently as every 30 seconds, we lose a syllable or two of audio. It's annoying, especially when it happens at just the wrong time and you miss a key word of dialog.
...
I had a long conversation with the engineer at the one station that hiccups, and he shared the following insights:

- He and other staffers have seen the same problem -- uniquely with their station -- on some Echo*/Dish satellite receivers with built-in ATSC tuners and on some Echo*/Dish converter boxes.

- He attributes it to those receivers' inability to reject signals from adjacent channels. That would suggest a basic hardware design problem across Echo*/Dish products ...but he also reported at least one instance in which a firmware update cured a long-troublesome satellite/ATSC receiver. So he held out some hope for improvement in the DTVPal DVR through a firmware update.Thanks, Servicetech571 and jlkane! I think you've *exactly* pegged what's likely going on with WUSA-DT in Washington, DC. They are transmitting on physical channel 34, with other digital stations at 33, 35 and 36.

Here are the signal levels TVFool predicts for me:

33: -112.5 dBm
34: -104.7 dBm
35: -105.3 dBm
36: -104.2 dBm

Interestingly, Chapelrun is NOT experiencing the sound glitches with WUSA-DT using his DTVPal DVR that some of the others of us are seeing. Here are the signal levels TVFool predicts for Chapelrun:

33: -103.7 dBm
34: -94.6 dBm
35: -97.7 dBm
36: -96.6 dBm

Hmmm. 10 dB higher signal level at Chapelrun's house. I'm experiencing DTV signal envy! In his case, WUSA-DT is also 2 dB stronger than the strongest neighbors while it is 0.5 dB WEAKER here.

What's really interesting about this whole issue is that one of the strong benefits that Microtune is touting for the architecture of the MT2131 is the outstanding adjacent-channel selectivity: "The secret to success in eliminating the risk from unwanted channels is for a tuner to have good adjacent channel rejection without sacrificing sensitivity. Microtune’s MT2131 tuners are engineered to exceed ATSC A/74 tuner guidelines."

Here is a plot from Microtune which assumedly shows measured data of the MT2131 exceeding the ATSC specification for Desired/Undesired Ratio for the adjacent channel by 8 dB (-48 dB versus. -40 dB specification):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=131120&stc=1&d=1232857859

Anyway, I wish the government would stop pushing this changeover date back so that these stations can get back to their proper frequencies.

Thoughts?

Reg

Speaking of audio hiccups described in posts 2061 and 2067...
Yes, this is EXACTLY what's going on with my unit.

<snip>

Attenuation with extra splitters/long cables hasn't resolved anything, although I have yet to try a real attenuator. What signal percentages are you getting on your good channels vs. the channel with breakup?

When I first reported, the "bad" channel was the strongest -- high 90s vs. low-to-mid 90s. Since then, I've seen everything, including a period when the bad channel was the lowest -- high 70s -- but still the lone hiccupy one. (I use an attic antenna, and we had a good blanket of snow on the roof at that time.) So I'm not convinced that signal strength is the culprit ...which explains my leisurely pursuit of an attenuator. Probably would have bagged the pursuit entirely if the station engineer had not held out some hope for this approach.

If you find an attenuator that works, let me know which one.

Will do!

Grateful for the help received from members of this forum (especially the always-amazing RegGuheert),

Jim

If you find an attenuator that works, let me know which one.
Here's a source for three attenuators a Philips DVDR user tried successfully. (http://www.homenetworksupply.com/products.aspx?search=attenuator)

He bought the 3, 6 and 10db units and ended up using both the 6 and 10, as described here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14745880#post14745880)

Just a reminder this link was put in by another member, it is very useful if we all put in our locations, and put our problem. it helps show localized problems.

http://carpoolfinder.appspot.com/?place=DTVPalDVR

Anyway, I wish the government would stop pushing this changeover date back so that these stations can get back to their proper frequencies.


I'm with you there...if the bill gives the stations the option to turn analog off on Feb 17th (I.e. doesn't force them to leave it on), there will be more confusion than a hard date as some stations disappear and some don't (full power only, of course). I image that the stations (along with all the tree huggers) would want it turned off on Feb 17th...that is a lot less electricity in use :)

No mystery, this is the "Dish" button. It brings of the Dish Home application on Dish's satellite receivers. It has no function on the DTVPal DTV, so they didn't put anything on the button. On the Dish satellite remotes, it contains the dish network logo. Notice that the DTVPal DTV led blinks when you push it (or any button on the remote regardless which mode it is in).

The button does function because it brought up the Dish Home application on my dish 625 before I changed the remote addresses between the two to be different and not 1. If fact, I set the DTVPal DTV remote's AUX mode to control the Dish 625. I couldn't do the same with the 625's remote because it is an older version (5.0 instead of 5.3) and it's AUX can not be programmed for a Dish (or DTVPal DVR) receiver.

Thanks for the explanation.

1. TV guide not working. It works fine on my old LG tuners so I know it is broadcast in my area.If you're talking about the LG 3410A DVR, it uses the analog TVGOS.

The Pal uses digital. Neither can receive the other type.

No other standalone LG tuner uses TVGOS. There are a few plasma and lcd panels with hard drives built-in that use it - but it's analog. Any other LG tuner with a guide is probably using PSIP data (they did have an HDD/DVD recorder that used a Microsoft guide).

but the fact that it reboots is actually a nice feature.Huh?

:confused:Ethernet data?

Diagnostics menu - ethernet

but the fact that it reboots is actually a nice feature.Huh?

He's saying as opposed to just locking up requiring the unit to be unplugged, which may not be the easiest thing to do in some setups.

Yes, it would be really nice if it didn't lockup or reboot in the first place.

Diagnostics menu - ethernet

Ah, I understand. You're saying it displayed the Ethernet data for the description. Must use the same buffer to store the text and the Ethernet data was in the buffer when you went to a recording that had no description without going to another recording with a description. Got it. (I thought you meant that it got the description from the Ethernet, silly me.) Obviously they are not clearing that buffer, so whatever happens to be there gets displayed.

Review it Here:


http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-video-recorders-dvrs/dish-network-dtvpal-dvr/4505-6474_7-33485090.html?tag=commProfileMain;profileBot

Last night I finally got the TV guide info for the week. Strange thing is I turned it on and up popped the message box saying it had added a channel.
It was added to my channel list, but is one I can't receive without moving the antenna (WYDN). Not sure why it decided to add the channel by itself.

Got enough confidence in this box now so I ordered a 500 gig drive for it. Getting the WD AACS. AAJS seems harder to find in stock.

OK I just went and pulled my data from TV fool, here's what I've got. The first one is the current channel allocation, the 2nd one is after 2-17:
131160
131161
Notice that both CH 9 and 13 both move after the transition. IMHO this is a VERY smart move. After the transition some people may not auto scan and will be able to simply punch the channel number in. Not to mention it fixes the co-channel issues. Looking at the specs for our tuner IC it appears that the firmware may very well be the culprit, but I'm not sure how the firmware interacts with the IC.

Even though I'm getting what seems to be very strong readings at TV fool I can barely get any reception with an indoor antenna, even when in the garage that faces towards the towers (Door open during test of course). I did try an amplified omnidirectional in the attic before going to the roof and got an OK signal on analog. Moved the omnidirectional to the roof and got some improvement, but the biggest improvement was ditching the amplified antenna and going with a plain metal antenna RCA3020X (http://www.petra.com/product_info.php?product_id=RCAANT3020X). I'm not sure about digital since I put the RCA3020X (http://www.petra.com/product_info.php?product_id=RCAANT3020X) up before acquiring a digital tuner.

The signal meter shows 96-100% on the channels near the top of the TV fool list and mid 90's for the channels near the end of the of the green part of the list. PBS is the only exception sitting in the low 90's. No reception for out of town signals at all, but I think that has more to do with direction than signal level.

1) It takes a few seconds for sound to return when I use the skip button on a recording. I'm trying PCM vs. DD to see if that fixes it (using HDMI to my Onkyo receiver for Audio and Video).

.

That doesn't seem to happen if using analog audio with component video. I switched from HDMI to component, which cured the 5 to 10 daily power cycles I was logging, and have found it also cured the audio delay when returning from skip functions.

When I select 4:3 ratio for my SDTV settings in the Pal DVR, I only get the equivalent of a 25inch display on my 35inch TV, which kinda sucks.

I'm also using the Pal with a 4:3 analog TV. Like a previous poster wrote, you need to press the "page up" button to zoom a 4:3 program that is being broadcast on a 16:9 station.

However, a complaint I have about the Pal is that the zoom will stay on when you switch channels, even for native 4:3 stations. I'm not sure why anyone would want it to do this. The converter boxes don't have this problem.

Review it Here:
http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-video-recorders-dvrs/dish-network-dtvpal-dvr/4505-6474_7-33485090.html?tag=commProfileMain;profileBot

Haha, that first review is from the guy who still thinks that Dish Network "deactivated" his unit.

Anyway, good idea with CNET. A lot more people will possibly visit that site to find out about the Pal.

How I stopped the lockups:

Upgraded to 202 using usb stick
Turned off automatic updates
Kept my zip code real
Left the card in
I don't have TVGOS in my area

I haven't had a lock up since doing the first two things

I'd like the jog back duration to be user selectable or at least 10 seconds rather than the 5 seconds or less that it seems to be.

I'll be skipping commercials and go one press too far, then I'll have to press the jog back button 6 or more times. My old Dish 508 seemed to be more sensible about this.

However, a complaint I have about the Pal is that the zoom will stay on when you switch channels, even for native 4:3 stations. I'm not sure why anyone would want it to do this. The converter boxes don't have this problem.Other than the Zenith DTT-901, where you can set the HD channels individually, yeah they do (at least most - as far as I know though, only the Zenith can do that. But the DTVPal and every other one I know of is the same as your Pal DVR).

And for native 480i stations, they also pretty much all do. In fact, you're not even able to change them to anything other than full-screen, 4:3, when using the box on a 4:3 display (though why you would even want to, I don't know).

PSIP only in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Aproximately 12 hours of populated EPG.



Have you contact KOTV to see what the plans are?

I'd like the jog back duration to be user selectable or at least 10 seconds rather than the 5 seconds or less that it seems to be.

I'll be skipping commercials and go one press too far, then I'll have to press the jog back button 6 or more times. My old Dish 508 seemed to be more sensible about this.

my pal dvr does this also, seems like 5 seconds or less even though the manual says 10 seconds. My VIP 722 is much better about 10 seconds.

Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

1) It takes a few seconds for sound to return when I use the skip button on a recording. I'm trying PCM vs. DD to see if that fixes it (using HDMI to my Onkyo receiver for Audio and Video)

My pal dvr does the 1 second audio delay also. Mt VIP 722 does not, it is perfectly synchronized with the start of playback

I too have the 1 sec delay on the restart of audio. My Denon looses the "lock" when the rew button is pressed, I think the delay comes from the Denon reacquiring the lock. perhaps taking it off "auto" and going to "optical" may make the difference.

Still this is a minor glitch compared to some of the bigger issues.

I too have the 1 sec delay on the restart of audio. My Denon looses the "lock" when the rew button is pressed, I think the delay comes from the Denon reacquiring the lock. perhaps taking it off "auto" and going to "optical" may make the difference.

Still this is a minor glitch compared to some of the bigger issues.

My Sony HD DVR and my Vista Media center do the same when connected HDMI or TosLink...I think if you go analog and take the receiver out of the mix, you would have no delay. So it sounds more of an issue of the receiver taking time pick up the signal that was stopped rather than an issue with the DVR.

Have you contact KOTV to see what the plans are?

No I haven't. I have thought about it and even poked around their website. I stopped short of actually calling them though.

I might do that this week. Although I am not so sure that TVGOS isn't causing a lot of these problems people are having.

Here is a little info I found about them. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=446819&page=23&highlight=tulsa

My Sony HD DVR and my Vista Media center do the same when connected HDMI or TosLink...I think if you go analog and take the receiver out of the mix, you would have no delay. So it sounds more of an issue of the receiver taking time pick up the signal that was stopped rather than an issue with the DVR.

You would think that except for the fact that there is no noticable delay on the VIP622 & VIP722 receivers.

Just got through helping my mother set-up her Harmony One and found that it added more skip forward and reverse features to her DHC6416. Namely Five minute advance and reverse. Unfortunately we are states away from my house and I can't experiment. Has anybody had any luck with universal remotes and the PAL ?

Just got through helping my mother set-up her Harmony One and found that it added more skip forward and reverse features to her DHC6416. Namely Five minute advance and reverse. Unfortunately we are states away from my house and I can't experiment. Has anybody had any luck with universal remotes and the PAL ?The Harmony line works just fine with the DTVPal DVR (in setup, you select the ViP722). You don't get any new functions or features, however.

Just got done using Dish Chat, will be sending my unit back to them, using my nickle though. Will let you all know what the second unit does.

Jay

Last night I finally got the TV guide info for the week. Strange thing is I turned it on and up popped the message box saying it had added a channel.
It was added to my channel list, but is one I can't receive without moving the antenna (WYDN). Not sure why it decided to add the channel by itself.

I've seen this behavior also. All channels that were added on mine were ones that I can't normally receive. It must get a hint of a signal with just the right conditions to identify the channels. One time it was only able to identify the actual channel. Later it discovered the virtual channel for this one.

I ordered a DTV-PAL DVR for my grandmother, who lives in a rural area without cable service. She's a complete technophobe, and I thought this would be the simplest way for her to continue recording the soap operas that she watches daily.

So far I am disappointed. The unit has been up and running since last Wednesday (5 days), and so far it has locked up 3 times, requiring it to be unplugged each time to recover. Yesterday I updated the firmware to 2.02 and disabled automatic updates, but it was still locked up when she went to use it this morning. I have her genuine zip code entered (and she's not getting TVGOS in the Oklahoma City market, another frustration, although not Dish's fault, I know) and it's connected via HDMI. Perhaps I'll use component instead and see what happens.

Just thought I'd throw my experience onto the pile. I have a Vip622 and a 612, and both have been pretty much trouble free in this regard, so I don't understand why this unit has been so plagued with problems. It seems they'd just be using a subset of the software used by the OTA tuners in those units.

I loaded latest code when I got my unit.

2 I had 3 shows in my recordings list. The last one had the description that was for the second one instead of its own. The show was correct, just the description wrong.
I think the problem is that when a recording does not have an description (either because it didn't have one in the guide, or more likely didn't get stored for some reason, i.e. bug), the description from the last recording you looked at is kept on the display. In other words, it's not clearing the display when there is no description.

I just noticed something curious about this problem. I recently set the My Recordings to sort by Title Group instead of by Date (though I wish it would still sort the groups by date like my 625 instead of alphabetically). The descriptions that were missing (i.e. contained a description for a different show), now say "No Information Available".

Tonight I was recording and watching a show almost in real time. When done I wanted to delete it but it was still recording the extra minute or two. I went to the recordings menu and clicked stop. The system just hung and would not respond to any buttons.

I held the remote power button for like 30 seconds and the unit did a shutdown and reboot and recovered with the recording stopped. I could then operate normally and delete the recording.

The Harmony line works just fine with the DTVPal DVR (in setup, you select the ViP722). You don't get any new functions or features, however.

True, unless you have a sequence created...I set up one called "recordings" that sends the DVR button twice...yes, I'm that lazy :)

Here's a thought for those having audio glitches, I live in Kansas City and have this problem
with KMBC (the ABC affiliate in KC). Approximately ever 35 seconds the audio hiccups. This
station is currently on 2 channels, it is on vhf channel 7 and also a sd version on uhf
channel 31, both channels do the hiccuping on the PalDvr, every other channel in town is
fine.
I have a antenna in my attic, it runs to the bsmt where it's connected to a splitter/combiner. one side of the splitter goes to the PalDvr, the other side of the
splitter goes to my Tivo HD. In other words, both units are hooked to exactly the same
antenna. The PalDvr is pretty unusable on this one channel because of the audio
glitches, audio on the Tivo HD is fine. This seems to indicate that the problem is
with the PalDvr. I also have a RCA converter box hooked to a different antenna and
it does fine with the audio.
I'm thinking that either the Pal box itself or the software on the Pal is causing this
problem.

I held the remote power button for like 30 seconds and the unit did a shutdown and reboot and recovered with the recording stopped. I could then operate normally and delete the recording.

On the Dish 508, when you push the power button on the front of the unit for several seconds, it will reboot. Since this has no buttons on the unit, perhaps they've build this into the remote?

--

I just now tried it, and by holding the power button down for 10 seconds, my unit rebooted. This is handy to know. Now when the unit locks up, I wonder if the unit will be responsive to the remote?

Anyone in the Houston, TX area have luck with their 'Pal getting true and full TVGOS from CBS?

Mine just seems to only receive the PSIP data. I've had my unit since late December. I've tried some assorted zip codes, same result. To be useful, I need much more guide data than I'm getting.

After some changes recommended on the Sony Thread, my Sony HDD500 seems to be receiving its data currently from CBS, as PBS has stopped sending the TVGOS analog data.

Have upgraded to ver. F202
Have an occasional lockup.

I held the remote power button for like 30 seconds and the unit did a shutdown and reboot and recovered with the recording stopped. I could then operate normally and delete the recording.


I just now tried it, and by holding the power button down for 10 seconds, my unit rebooted. This is handy to know. Now when the unit locks up, I wonder if the unit will be responsive to the remote?

I also just tried this. Held my power button down for about 10 seconds and mine rebooted. Them Dish people are sneaky.

Now if we can find a unit that is froze up to see if this works.

This pretty much derails my plans for a Clapper surge protector.

Now if we can find a unit that is froze up to see if this works.


Weeks ago I ran into this. Having Dish in the past, I know usually holding the power button on the unit will reboot it. Since there were no buttons on the box, when my unit locked up, I tried holding the remote button for 30 seconds and nothing happened. I tried this on several occasions with no luck. Good to know it works when it is not locked up but my guess is you still need to unplug it if it does lock up.

On a side note, I was experiencing numerous reboots and a few lockups after upgrading to F202. About 4 days ago, I did a factory reset and went to the setup. Since I do not have TVGOS in the area, I left the zip code to 00000 instead of setting my actual zip. Previously I was using my actual zip code. I am happy to report, knock on wood, I have not experienced any lockups/reboots since this. I know its only been a few days, but tonight I was recording multiple channels and playing back another with zero issues. Previously, the unit would reboot during record/playback. Not sure if it fixed anything, but so far so good.

Anyone in the Houston, TX area have luck with their 'Pal getting true and full TVGOS from CBS?

Nah... All I think I'm getting is PSIP data as well although the TV Guide logo is displayed on my guide.

Guide data for channels 39, 51 and 55 seem to be pretty full, though(6-7 days).

I just would like to add that is what people actually see when they change channel is not actual (dB) signal strength.
I'm sure that I mentioned that a few posts back.

Yes, you did mention this. How do you KNOW this? As Ken H correctly stated, some equipment measures signal quality while other equipment measures signal strength:


I will grab my meter and do some readings tomorrow.


Of course, I'm interested to hear more about your measurements if you get a chance to make them! TIA!


I had some time to do the dBmV power level to PAL % strength readings today.
I wanted to post my results.

My setup
I have a medium directional antenna
Blonder Tongue ZCM-201 50-550MHz + 20dB distribution amp (with tilt).
Both of these are mounted in my attic.
I am located approx. 35 Miles from the OTA Broadcast Antenna Farm.
Approx 35' of RG6 running to a MCR 8 way splitter (5-3000MHZ) -13dB RFI
After that I have 6 rooms hooked up. (RG6 home run setup)
Terminators on remaining open ports.

I took some power level readings with my Trilithic Model Two.
Then I removed my Blonder Tongue +20dB amp and replaced it with a Pico Macom (Tru Spec) CDA-1A +15dB Drop amp, so I could compare the signal strength readings from PAL with different incoming dBmV power levels.

Results

[Channel] [BT dBmV] [Pal Reading] [Pico dBmV] [Pal Reading]

__16________-1.3______92%_______-10.5_______92%

__21________16.0______95%_________8.6_______95%

__22________13.3______99%_________4.5_______99%

__26_________5.2______90%________-1.4_______91%

__32_________6.2______99% ________0.8______100%

__34_________5.1_____100%_________2.3______100%

__35_________4.4______97%_________2.5_______96%

__44________-9.6______89%________-5.7_______90%

__50________-5.8______90%_________1.0_______92%


As you can see the Power input levels changed significantly (when I switched amp's), and the Pal "Signal" readings remained (mostly) the same.
I still could be wrong with my assumption but...
This is how I came to my conclusion that it is "Signal Quality".

Did I miss something?
Anybody need more info?
Does this chart make sense?
Did I spell anithing wrong?
S

Other than the Zenith DTT-901, where you can set the HD channels individually, yeah they do (at least most - as far as I know though, only the Zenith can do that. But the DTVPal and every other one I know of is the same as your Pal DVR).

And for native 480i stations, they also pretty much all do. In fact, you're not even able to change them to anything other than full-screen, 4:3, when using the box on a 4:3 display (though why you would even want to, I don't know).

But the DTVPal DVR does allow you to zoom native 4:3 stations. This is annoying to me, because I don't ever want to zoom a station that is already full screen. Exactly... why would you even want to?

On the CECBs, such as the Channel Master, native 4:3 stations are not zoomed -- they simply remain full screen (like you said). I really wish the Pal DVR was like that. I constantly have to zoom back out on native 4:3 stations.

Nah... All I think I'm getting is PSIP data as well although the TV Guide logo is displayed on my guide.

Guide data for channels 39, 51 and 55 seem to be pretty full, though(6-7 days).

If you have the Red TV Guide logo on your EPG screen, you're getting at least some TV Guide OnScreen data (the stations that go out 6-7 days worth). Any others are probably PSIP , like you said.

Although I am not so sure that TVGOS isn't causing a lot of these problems people are having.It very likely does have something to do with it. If you read the Sony DVR thread, you'll see that a few of the people there (including me once last week, and I've never had it happen before) have been having reboots just like this unit has. Everyone in the country had their channel lineups completely reset a few days back, too.

Originally Posted by BrokenRecord :
Anyone in the Houston, TX area have luck with their 'Pal getting true and full TVGOS from CBS?
Nah... All I think I'm getting is PSIP data as well although the TV Guide logo is displayed on my guide.

Guide data for channels 39, 51 and 55 seem to be pretty full, though(6-7 days).

I find that 14 & 51 are the only channels that go out about 6 days, and 39 goes out about 5 days. All else are 3 days or less (if there's even an entry).

I have the TV guide logo displayed as well.

I'm hoping for change come Feb 17.

Has anybody had any luck with universal remotes and the PAL ?

My One for All 8910 works great with the .JP1 upgrade file DISH VIP622(8910).txt.

(.JP1 is an open-source project that allows universal remotes to be extensively programmed. Details at http://www.hifi-remote.com/jp1/help/)

I found another annoying problem that is different from my old Dish sat DVR. If I see some cool 1 min. clip I want to save, I used to be able to rewind back, click record, then fast forward and hit stop. BUT, the DTVPal DVR will only record what is going on in real time. What the heck?

Anybody have a work around?

It very likely does have something to do with it. If you read the Sony DVR thread, you'll see that a few of the people there (including me once last week, and I've never had it happen before) have been having reboots just like this unit has. Everyone in the country had their channel lineups completely reset a few days back, too.If that is the case it is not likely that it will be fixed in earnest on the TVGOS side until after the transition is complete and they can devote full focus to digital. So now factor in that congress will likely delay the transition until June and that results in a lot of potential pain for Pal DVR users.

I don't think TVGOS is what causes the reboots. I have PSIP only/using component outputs and still get the occasional reboot.

I think we have 4 choices:
1: Live with it as-is
2: Return and hope the new model doesn't have the same issues.
3: Request a charge back through your CC, since Dish won't allow returns
4: Hope Dish is actually working on a firmware to fix our issues.

It's kind of discouraging that Dish is so readily performing exchanges for these...kind of indicates that they think the problems are hardware related instead of firmware related (in which case they would SAY that such and such a problem is being adressed in the next firmware, just be patient...) :(

On a side note, I was experiencing numerous reboots and a few lockups after upgrading to F202. About 4 days ago, I did a factory reset and went to the setup. Since I do not have TVGOS in the area, I left the zip code to 00000 instead of setting my actual zip. Previously I was using my actual zip code. I am happy to report, knock on wood, I have not experienced any lockups/reboots since this. I know its only been a few days, but tonight I was recording multiple channels and playing back another with zero issues. Previously, the unit would reboot during record/playback. Not sure if it fixed anything, but so far so good.
I've been reading this thread for awhile now off and on, but this post seems to nail the thought I had based on working on the 2007 switch in DST dates.

I'm wondering if this box getting two streams of "time-related" data, PSIP and TVGOS, has conflicting time bases, which in the DST Bug caused lockups, etc. galor?

Based on the early reports of PSIP being off in time "suggests" a possible time-based conflict with a TVGOS that keep perfect time separately... and so many things in our recorders must have solid time/date-keeeping and counting it's almost mind-boggling?

Sorry if this has been discussed before and I missed it. :eek:

I don't think TVGOS is what causes the reboots. I have PSIP only/using component outputs and still get the occasional reboot.

I think we have 4 choices:
1: Live with it as-is
2: Return and hope the new model doesn't have the same issues.
3: Request a charge back through your CC, since Dish won't allow returns
4: Hope Dish is actually working on a firmware to fix our issues.

I think if a person chooses 1 and 4, they should at least be contacting Dish and getting their problems documented and when the warranty expiration date comes near, demand a new box or an extended warranty. I think the longer you wait (within the warranty period) the better chance you have that they have solved the problems.

Even though mine has been relatively trouble free concerning the freezes/reboots, it still has all the little nagging peculiar software problems everyone has experienced. And my warranty is up in about a month.

It's kind of discouraging that Dish is so readily performing exchanges for these...kind of indicates that they think the problems are hardware related instead of firmware related (in which case they would SAY that such and such a problem is being adressed in the next firmware, just be patient...) :(

From reading through these posts, it appears the second batch of boxes are as buggy and the first batch. Maybe exchanging a customers box is just a troubleshooting tool e.g., recieve the customers box to test it in the shop, and send another box into the same environment(customers house) to see if it is the box or environment.

As you can see the Power input levels changed significantly (when I switched amp's), and the Pal "Signal" readings remained (mostly) the same.
I still could be wrong with my assumption but... This is how I came to my conclusion that it is "Signal Quality".

Did I miss something?

Yes. That testing method may not provide any meaningful data.
With signals as strong as you show, the tuner's automatic gain control could already be limiting the signal strength.
Generally, if you "over amp" a digital tuner you may actually loose observed signal strength. The Microtune tuner has a very aggressive AGC.

Try this test again without any amp.

Did I spell anithing wrong?


Yes.

As I mistakenly posted on the order forum, having worked with a unit since late December, have had no problems with reboots or other failures. I live in the Tampa Bay area where the TVGOS is analog. At change over, the local CBS will be adding this to their digital signal....maybe that is when my trouble begans! Have not done update. Any other owners in my arear experiencing problems? The trouble map at another website shows no problems here.

But the DTVPal DVR does allow you to zoom native 4:3 stations. This is annoying to me, because I don't ever want to zoom a station that is already full screen. Exactly... why would you even want to?

On the CECBs, such as the Channel Master, native 4:3 stations are not zoomed -- they simply remain full screen (like you said). I really wish the Pal DVR was like that. I constantly have to zoom back out on native 4:3 stations.

I like that I can zoom 4:3 sources because sometimes they are letterboxed 16:9 inside a 4:3 source. Like just last night - a PBS sub channel had a "Nature" broadcast about Polar Bears and Grizzly Bears in the context of a reseeding ice caps: it was nice to fill my wide screen TV with it, even though it was letterboxed and had side bars.

It gets a bit grainy, but on my 32", it's not too bad.

As you can see the Power input levels changed significantly (when I switched amp's), and the Pal "Signal" readings remained (mostly) the same.
I still could be wrong with my assumption but...
This is how I came to my conclusion that it is "Signal Quality".

S[/FONT]

I'm sure you are right that it is a signal quality meter. It reads almost exactly the same numbers as the signal quality meter on my Sony TV. The Sony has a nice diagnostic screen that includes Signal-to-Noise in dB and that meter scales directly to the signal quality bar graph with 54 = 16dB up to 98 = 32 dB.

I've also examined many of my digital stations with a spectrum analyzer. All of my local stations have mutipath due to terrain problems. Most of the out-of-area stations I can receive have very little multipath. It's very common for those stations to be 10 or 20 dB weaker than the locals yet the signal quality meter reads a higher number. The true signal strength meter in the Sony is the AGC number which is an inverted reading, the stronger the signal, the lower the number, regardless of multipath.

I have no experience with the vast majority of TVs out there. I wonder if any have actual signal strength meters? The way to determine this without a spectrum analyzer is to find a case where the meter reads a high number but is unable to display a picture, most likely due to multipath.

It seems to me that a real signal strength meter would not be too useful for most consumers because they wouldn't understand what is happening when the meter showed a strong signal but there was no picture. They'd probably think the TV was broken. ;)

I thought it was interesting that the DTVPal DVR puts a message on the screen when the S/N is low and in danger of breakup or loss.

Chuck

At change over, the local CBS will be adding this to their digital signal....maybe that is when my trouble begans!

I have had the unit for a week and had 4 lockups/2 freezes in the first three days (if I remember right).

I put a new antenna up and started picking up TVGOS out of market using my actual zip code (I believe it must be from Canada since neither Buffalo or Rochester broadcasts it, but it fills in my local stations with 7 days of info and I get the red TV Guide logo), and haven't had any problems since. You may not have problems when the transition comes just because of digital TVGOS since I just made the transition in a sense.

I did a factory reset at the same time and did not change any default settings (i.e. did not disable updates even though I have no ethernet plugged in). I have not updated my firmware, but was about to before my problems stopped. I'm not going to mess with it now unless problems return.

I know that this runs against some of the conventional wisdom seen in the thread, but I haven't had any problems since TVGOS came on and updates were enabled. I do not know that these things solved my problems (and the problems may return again), but I thought I'd throw it out there to add to the knowledge base. So far TVGOS and updates have not caused me any problems or made them worse.

It's only been a few days, and I've learned not to get my hopes up.

Last updated: January 14 @ 5:55pm
If you have an A/V receiver or surround system:

Connect the digital audio output (optical or HDMI) directly from the DTVPal DVR to your receiver or surround system. Do not connect audio output from the TV to your surround system.


My DTVPal DVR is connected to an Onkyo receiver via HDMI, and the receiver is connected to my LCD via HDMI. Why should I not connect the audio out from my LCD to my receiver? Is this only if it's connected to the same input on the receiver as the DTVPal? I would like to have audio out on my LCD for use with other sources internal to the LCD (i.e. ATSC tuner, ethernet file playback over LAN, video camera or game system connected to front-side jacks, etc.).

On a side note, I was experiencing numerous reboots and a few lockups after upgrading to F202. About 4 days ago, I did a factory reset and went to the setup. Since I do not have TVGOS in the area, I left the zip code to 00000 instead of setting my actual zip. Previously I was using my actual zip code. I am happy to report, knock on wood, I have not experienced any lockups/reboots since this. I know its only been a few days, but tonight I was recording multiple channels and playing back another with zero issues. Previously, the unit would reboot during record/playback. Not sure if it fixed anything, but so far so good.Unfortunately there is no way to tell if the zip code had anything to do with it or if it was purely an effect of a factory reset cleaning out all the buffers that may have contained corrupt data. If you start getting the reboot problem again in the near future, see if just a factory reset sets you right again. Admittedly this may be specific to your unit -- the reboot could be the final straw that is pulled for any number of firmware/hardware corruptions.

I had my DTVPal DVR all weekend, putting it through extensive use. Recording two channels while watching a previously recorded program, recording SEVERAL times a day, and pretty much watching nothing but it. I really wanted to put it through the stress test. I must say, it held up well.

I had one unexplainable reboot on Saturday, other than that, no problems. Everything that I set up to recorded did so. I LOVE this little machine. I feel like I am back in the 21st century (welcome back). Now, I don't miss DishNetwork or Comcast at ALL.

In view of the fact that no update is available for those of us with the F202TALD version, could it be possible that Dish has made a change to the hardware that requires slightly different code and that is the reason for the F202TAKD f/w?

Good guess on the K versus L firmware. From Dave Zatz's blog:


FYI I’ve gotten some clarification on the K versus L software versions: “it’s just a unit identifier used internally in our service department to identify parts used. It has nothing to do with functionality.” So we all should have the same functionality. And, unless any of the reported issues are hardware-specific, our experiences should be similar. Somewhat related, my unit has yet to freeze or crash. I’m connected via HDMI, using TGOS, and the DVR is in a well ventilated location. Will continue to observe.


http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-01/dtvpal-dvr-unboxing-setup/#comments

I received my DTVPal DVR week before last and I've had it installed since last Saturday (1/18/09). I've experienced random reboots since I got it hooked up but they are getting more frequent. Yesterday (Sunday 1/25/09) I had 8 reboots in a 4 hour period (4:30pm to ^:30pm) with an additional HD error that stated that the unit needed to be unplugged for 15 seconds.

The reboots occurred at roughly 30 minute intervals while watching TV. The ones I wrote down were at 6:47, 7:17, 7:53 and 8:22. One occurred while watching TV and recording another show and another while watching delayed TV (loosing the delay during the reboot).

I updated the SW to F202 during the initial setup. The reboots have occurred while I have had the automatic updates enabled and disabled (currently disabled) but I have always had the ethernet port connected to my router. I receive the TVGOS signal and have put in my true zip of 80234 (Denver Metro) but have not set up the DTVPal to pass the signal along to other devices.

I am connected via the Component Video connection.

I have emailed Tech@echostar.com but am not holding out much hope for a quick response.

Any advice you could give me would be greatly appreciated.
(also posted to "Have you experienced Reboots or Lock-ups on your DTVPal DVR?" thread)

You would think that except for the fact that there is no noticable delay on the VIP622 & VIP722 receivers.

I am connected straight to my TV with both the VIP 722 and PAL DVR via HDMI

My DTVPal DVR is connected to an Onkyo receiver via HDMI, and the receiver is connected to my LCD via HDMI. Why should I not connect the audio out from my LCD to my receiver? Is this only if it's connected to the same input on the receiver as the DTVPal? I would like to have audio out on my LCD for use with other sources internal to the LCD (i.e. ATSC tuner, ethernet file playback over LAN, video camera or game system connected to front-side jacks, etc.).I'll clarify that.

Some people connect their STB or DVR to the TV with HDMI, thinking they can then connect optical output from the TV to their surround system to get 5.1 audio. Most TVs will not accept a 5.1 input via HDMI and then pass that same 5.1 through their optical output.

Well, looks like the CBS guys in Buffalo, NY finally flipped the switch and started transmitting TVGOS data.

Puts a full week of guide data in and fixes the clock problem. Also makes the search function kind of nice.

The next day I had 2 reboots...something that has not happened since I got the unit in December. I did a reset to factory defaults. The TVGOS took more than 8 hours but less than 24 hours to load back in. No reboots since.

I too have sound dropouts on one channel (ABC WKBW 7-1 and also on its sub channel 7-2). The tuner in my HDTV does not have this problem.

Assuming I have no more reboots, this is my only problem with the unit. I will tinker around to see what I can figure out.

I just got my unit today.

Maybe I'm missing something but it loads the Setup Wizard screen with the options for Continue or Point Antenna and no matter what I press on the remote it doesn't do anything.

Yes, the pal button on the remote is lit up. Any ideas?

I found another annoying problem that is different from my old Dish sat DVR. If I see some cool 1 min. clip I want to save, I used to be able to rewind back, click record, then fast forward and hit stop. BUT, the DTVPal DVR will only record what is going on in real time. What the heck?

Anybody have a work around?

This bug has already been talked about. There is no workaround. We'll just have to wait for Dish to fix it.

It's kind of discouraging that Dish is so readily performing exchanges for these...kind of indicates that they think the problems are hardware related instead of firmware related (in which case they would SAY that such and such a problem is being addressed in the next firmware, just be patient...) :(

Not necessarily. I think they just exchange boxes to make it look like they are doing something. They did this with their 50x a while back when they downloaded a particularly buggy software release. People units were fine before and all of sudden stopped working. The replacements usually had the same problem or worst. After a couple of more software releases, they just started to work right again (even those that kept the original units). Unlikely it was a hardware problem, but they exchanged the units anyway.

(Fortunately I didn't except new releases and avoided the most serious problems with my 508, however, they do eventually force the units to except a new release, but usually the most serious bugs are worked out til then.)

I just got my unit today.

Maybe I'm missing something but it loads the Setup Wizard screen with the options for Continue or Point Antenna and no matter what I press on the remote it doesn't do anything.

Yes, the pal button on the remote is lit up. Any ideas?
Are you sure you have an antenna cable hooked to the Antenna In jack?

Are you sure you have an antenna cable hooked to the Antenna In jack?

Yea, I have an RCA ANT1500 hooked up through the coax port on the left when looking at the back of the DVR.

I haven't tried programming my Harmony One yet to see if that will work with it. That might be my next step.

Will the firmware update automatically by plugging in the ethernet if its still on the steup screen?

I'm on the phone with DISH now and he said gonna he's send me a new remote. heh.

I just got my unit today.

Maybe I'm missing something but it loads the Setup Wizard screen with the options for Continue or Point Antenna and no matter what I press on the remote it doesn't do anything.

Yes, the pal button on the remote is lit up. Any ideas?
I screwed up my remote temporarily by trying to change the remote address. The way to do this is explained on the first post (FAQ #36). I tried to repeat these steps from memory and forgot to perform the last step (hit record button). What ended up happening was my DVR was expecting address #1 and my remote was something else (some number from 2 to 15).

I wouldn't try changing the address unless you've exhausted all other possibilities. This is one issue I've had with this unit. There are no front panel controls that allow you to navigate the menu. If you don't have a remote, you are SOL.

I'm looking to get my parents an OTA HD DVR, and have been following this thread for about two months. I thought that the DTV Pal DVR might be the solution, but I am concerned with all of the issues I have been reading about. Obviously, with this being for my parents, I would like a DVR that works somewhat flawlessly. I know that no electronics device is perfect, but some are more headaches than others.

For those who have both DVRs, would you recommend a Tivo device or the DTV Pal DVR? One of the biggest concerns my parents have is programming recordings. They currently have a Panasonic analog DVR that relys on TVGOS, and it tends to delete programmed recordings for no reason. So, they are looking for something that is reliable.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

(sigh).... (yawn)... :rolleyes:yet another piece of AV gear beta tested for use by... "us".
Isn't this the pits when everything from HDTVs, to Blu-ray players, and now the DTVPal all go out the door with such flakey initial operation? Then, the real disgusting thing is that before they get all the bugs worked out, they come out with a new model, and the cycle starts all over again leaving so called "early adopters" holding the bag. Anyone notice all this started happening with electronic products once China became the place to make and/or engineer these hi-tech products? Oh, wait, I know, let's start making excuses for this c**p because, after all, this is high technology and there are always bugs to be worked out. Reboots..... hangups.... schmangups! This all s**ks! Go suck an *Oppo*! :D lol [Disclaimer: This diatribe was all written tongue in cheek and is merely a beta test version of the final release. ]:cool:

Are you sure you have an antenna cable hooked to the Antenna In jack?

I screwed up my remote temporarily by trying to change the remote address. The way to do this is explained on the first post (FAQ #36). I tried to repeat these steps from memory and forgot to perform the last step (hit record button). What ended up happening was my DVR was expecting address #1 and my remote was something else (some number from 2 to 15).

I wouldn't try changing the address unless you've exhausted all other possibilities. This is one issue I've had with this unit. There are no front panel controls that allow you to navigate the menu. If you don't have a remote, you are SOL.

I just setup my Harmony One with it and it works fine so they did send me a bad remote or on the wrong frequency or something.

Update on the return of my unit.
I was told on the 12th that I should get a new unit in 3-5 working days. When I hadn't gotten it by the 24th, I called to find out the status of my return. After some searching, the girl helping me said that my new unit hadn't shipped and that my return was "on hold". I asked her what that meant and she guessed that it meant they had no units to send. I asked if they could email me with a tracking number when it does ship, and was told that they aren't allowed to email customers. She recommended that I call again in 5 days to check the status.

Meanwhile my box is still locking up and rebooting. And now a new problem. It randomly skips recordings for no apparent reason. I noticed one today while the show was still being broadcast and tried to do a manual record. It didn't record that way either. I haven't seen anyone else say that this has happened to them.

It very likely does have something to do with it. If you read the Sony DVR thread, you'll see that a few of the people there (including me once last week, and I've never had it happen before) have been having reboots just like this unit has. Everyone in the country had their channel lineups completely reset a few days back, too.

No TVGOS in our market, I'm having the same problems everybody else is.

I like that I can zoom 4:3 sources because sometimes they are letterboxed 16:9 inside a 4:3 source. Like just last night - a PBS sub channel had a "Nature" broadcast about Polar Bears and Grizzly Bears in the context of a reseeding ice caps: it was nice to fill my wide screen TV with it, even though it was letterboxed and had side bars.

It gets a bit grainy, but on my 32", it's not too bad.

That never made any sense to me. Why do they Letterbox AND sidebar a show? Why not just transmit it at it's correct aspect ratio filling the screen up?

That never made any sense to me. Why do they Letterbox AND sidebar a show? Why not just transmit it at it's correct aspect ratio filling the screen up?

Because the subchannels on PBS are 4:3 standard definition. They letterbox it to fit the 16:9 image in the 4:3 standard definition transmission. Your set shows that with bars on the side.

Probably they don't change the aspect ratio of the transmission because of fear that many sets would freak when the image format changed.

Alan

It seems that the PSIP data is not properly kept. The data will disappear from the guide without warning, and require tuning to the channel to get it repopulated. The data should not disappear until it is obsolete, and the second tuner should be able to populate it if it is not being used.
Neither seems to be the case.

On the good side, one local channel had data almost 22 hours into the future. Unfortunately,
the unit forgot it when tuned away from the channel for a few minutes.

Alan

Day 6 with the DVR and, still, no problems. No crashes, reboots, freezes, nothing. I've just replaced an amplified antenna that I've had for 7 years with a Philips MANT940 antenna, did another channel scan and it picked up 3 WLIW channels AND improved the singal strength of the PBS stations (signal strength was around 60 and now it's around 86). I'm happy about this because my children enjoy programming on these channels. I hope I'm not jinxing myself by saying this, but, the DVR is working exactly the way I hoped it would work, I like the box. I just wish there were as many ppl posting good things about the box as there are ppl posting bad things about it. I don't have 100% faith in the box, I'm still waiting for something to happen. I think reading some good things about the box will probably change the way I feel :)

Because the subchannels on PBS are 4:3 standard definition. They letterbox it to fit the 16:9 image in the 4:3 standard definition transmission. Your set shows that with bars on the side.

Probably they don't change the aspect ratio of the transmission because of fear that many sets would freak when the image format changed.

Alan

I've seen it happen on HD channels also, but it's typically just on commercials.

Day 6 with the DVR and, still, no problems. No crashes, reboots, freezes, nothing. I've just replaced an amplified antenna that I've had for 7 years with a Philips MANT940 antenna, did another channel scan and it picked up 3 WLIW channels AND improved the singal strength of the PBS stations (signal strength was around 60 and now it's around 86). I'm happy about this because my children enjoy programming on these channels. I hope I'm not jinxing myself by saying this, but, the DVR is working exactly the way I hoped it would work, I like the box. I just wish there were as many ppl posting good things about the box as there are ppl posting bad things about it. I don't have 100% faith in the box, I'm still waiting for something to happen. I think reading some good things about the box will probably change the way I feel :)

My box has been in service in 12/26/2008. so far, like you, I have had no issues. Well minor issues, but that was related to missing data from TVGOS and the way the DVR doesn't clear it when you change programs. As far as recordings, watching TV, etc goes, it has been 100% flawless. I reset my power cycle count on 1/3 and it still remains at zero.

There are some of us out there that are 100% satisfied, but are too busy watching our functional DVR's and not posting here :p

Day 6 with the DVR and, still, no problems. No crashes, reboots, freezes, nothing. I've just replaced an amplified antenna that I've had for 7 years with a Philips MANT940 antenna, did another channel scan and it picked up 3 WLIW channels AND improved the singal strength of the PBS stations (signal strength was around 60 and now it's around 86). I'm happy about this because my children enjoy programming on these channels. I hope I'm not jinxing myself by saying this, but, the DVR is working exactly the way I hoped it would work, I like the box. I just wish there were as many ppl posting good things about the box as there are ppl posting bad things about it. I don't have 100% faith in the box, I'm still waiting for something to happen. I think reading some good things about the box will probably change the way I feel :)

Naturally, people with problems will post far more often because there looking for help or at least reassurance there not alone. It wouldn't be helpful for me or others to post every few days that our unit is still working fine . But your right, anyone reading this thread would be scared to order one.

Who knows what causes the freezes and reboots? Power supply problem, TVGOS, (corrupted guide data received)
hardware. I'm sure there's not going to be a magic fix in a firmware update that will fix these boxes because I don't think you can just put your finger on the cause. Could be something in you area / location causing the problem. Another box possibly would act the same .
Wouldn't it be interesting for a few people with a problem box and some with a problem free box to exchange temporarily and see the results. Of course this will never happen, but I wonder.....

I like that I can zoom 4:3 sources because sometimes they are letterboxed 16:9 inside a 4:3 source. Like just last night - a PBS sub channel had a "Nature" broadcast about Polar Bears and Grizzly Bears in the context of a reseeding ice caps: it was nice to fill my wide screen TV with it, even though it was letterboxed and had side bars.

It gets a bit grainy, but on my 32", it's not too bad.

Good point, I never thought of that. However, it really doesn't serve a purpose for 4:3 TV owners.

That was a good Nature episode, by the way.

My DTV Pal was delivered last week, and I got it installed Saturday. I'm connected via component, and have the TV guide updates enabled.

No problems the first day! I was very impressed with the video quality and the interface. It was easy to set up recordings; to pause live TV; to review programs. (Of course, I was upgrading from a 17 year old VCR).

The next day I was initially pleased to see that the TV guide seemed to be populated, but later confused to see that programs present in the guide went undefined later in the day -- why would program information, once obtained, disappear?

That night I was watching an active recording about 10 minutes behind. Suddenly the audio disappeared. I scrambled for the remote, and tried to turn the volume up. Then the video also froze. Took me a long while before I realized I'd need to unplug and replug. (I was hopeful that it was still recording. A fantasy.)

Of course, since I waited to repower the unit, I lost about 10 minutes from the program. About the only good thing was that, when repowered and rebooted, it recognized that it was supposed to be recording, and immediately started recording the program from that point.

Later that evening the Pal rebooted. I may have been watching a recording at the time, I don't recall.

Tonight, I was enjoying another thrilling episode of 24. Forty five minutes into the episode, the screen went black. I was able to switch back to analog, so I didn't miss more than a few minutes. But this was another unscheduled reboot taking a few minutes, and, at some point in the near future, my analog backstop will be gone.

So, in three days: one hard freeze, requiring an unplugging reset. Two reboots. Based on what I'm reading in this forum, the prognosis is not too good for this unit ... or a replacement. Though I am gladdened to hear from the occasional satisfied customer.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents ... I'll be monitoring everyone's progress. Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge and experience.

just talked to customer service via chat - when I told them of my lockup issues during recording, the guy told me that it they had "no known issues" with that sort of thing and that it was likely a grounding issue on the part of my antenna or because my dvr was plugged into a power strip.

I was furious! no known issues? I just spent $275 of a piece of junk if I can never record ANYTHING without it locking up and missing the program!!!

Anyone know any good lawyers?

I was furious! no known issues? I just spent $275 of a piece of junk if I can never record ANYTHING without it locking up and missing the program!!!

Anyone know any good lawyers?:eek:

See my post a few posts back. I know how it feels being an "early adopter" and left holding the bag. There was never any excuse for this kind poor quality control. I'd bet there is "China" written all over the inside of these units. Doesn't feel very good being a "Beta Tester" for a product does it?

just talked to customer service via chat - when I told them of my lockup issues during recording, the guy told me that it they had "no known issues" with that sort of thing and that it was likely a grounding issue on the part of my antenna or because my dvr was plugged into a power strip.

I think that all they do is look here (http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/receiver/tr50.shtml), if the issue isn't listed, it isn't a known issue.

Day 6 with the DVR and, still, no problems. No crashes, reboots, freezes, nothing. I've just replaced an amplified antenna that I've had for 7 years with a Philips MANT940 antenna, did another channel scan and it picked up 3 WLIW channels AND improved the singal strength of the PBS stations (signal strength was around 60 and now it's around 86). I'm happy about this because my children enjoy programming on these channels. I hope I'm not jinxing myself by saying this, but, the DVR is working exactly the way I hoped it would work, I like the box. I just wish there were as many ppl posting good things about the box as there are ppl posting bad things about it. I don't have 100% faith in the box, I'm still waiting for something to happen. I think reading some good things about the box will probably change the way I feel :)

I've had my DVR for 7 days now. I had 2 reboots the first two days I had it, but after that it has worked without a hitch. So far I'm very pleased with my purchase. I keep waiting for the reboots and freeze-ups to start occurring on a regular basis, but happy they are not. It really seems that it's the luck of the draw as to who gets a good one and who doesn't. I will say this on my usage of my DVR....I tend to use it more like a VCR in that I use it to record shows I want to watch later and when watching regular TV, I turn my DVR off and just watch my HDTV by itself. So, this might be one reason why I haven't had as many reboots as other people....because I'm not using it as much.

Overall though, I've been very happy with my purchase.

just talked to customer service via chat - when I told them of my lockup issues during recording, the guy told me that it they had "no known issues" with that sort of thing and that it was likely a grounding issue on the part of my antenna or because my dvr was plugged into a power strip.

I was furious! no known issues? I just spent $275 of a piece of junk if I can never record ANYTHING without it locking up and missing the program!!!

Anyone know any good lawyers?

I was also told that my problem could be having it plugged into a surge protector. Well I tried plugging directly into the wall outlet, and it did help alot. This makes me think at least for my unit the problem is a marginal power supply.

just talked to customer service via chat - when I told them of my lockup issues during recording, the guy told me that it they had "no known issues" with that sort of thing and that it was likely a grounding issue on the part of my antenna or because my dvr was plugged into a power strip.

I was furious! no known issues? I just spent $275 of a piece of junk if I can never record ANYTHING without it locking up and missing the program!!!

Anyone know any good lawyers?

Sometime ago I sent an email to Echostar technical support and this is what I got back. Yes it is sort of generic but it does say they are working on the problem which implies that they know it exists. The fact that the DVR has a problem is one thing but the fact that they don't know what is going on or worse insult their customers by lying to them is just too much.

...
Thank you for your email. We apologize for any inconvenience this issue has caused. Thank you for providing the information for our engineering department. They are currently working towards a resolution for this issue. Unfortunately, we do not have a status report for this situation at this time. Generally these issues are resolved via software information sent directly to the receiver.

Your business is greatly appreciated and we thank you for allowing us to be of assistance to you. If you have further questions you can respond to this e-mail or access our online technical support at the following link: http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/techportal/index.shtml

A Technical Service Representative is available via live chat 24 hours a day, 7 days per week regarding your concerns. Please click the following link to use this option. http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/techportal/content/tech/techchatadvcustformrf23.shtml

Thank you,
DISH Network Technical E-care

** Please include all previous correspondence when replying. **

-----original message-----

Please view the thread at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099071 for some background on this issue.

Several of the DTVPal DVR owners have a problem with the DVR spontaneously rebooting. The average seems to be about once a day. Some have also reported lockups that require removing power and plugging the unit back in but what they be seeing is just a blank screen because both tuners are busy. Note: I now know there are actual lockups.

Info on my unit:
Model ID DTVPal DVR
Reciever ID R1880052938-45
Software Version F202TALD-N
Boot Strap Version 1011TALD
Processor ID 29649231
Remote Address 01
Software Checksum 77AAA867
Hard Drive Error Count is 0

We can not figure out what is causing these reboots and there are a lot of ideas, none of which seem to pan out.

* The current favorite is that there is something wrong with the TVGOS data but one user reports that he has two units connected to the same splitter. On reboots and one does not.

* A lot of people have disabled program guide updates and it seemed to help but a number still get reboots.

* The reboots are not temporarily related to scheduled program updates.

* It does not seem to matter whether you are recording two programs or just watching live TV.

* What does "DISABLE PROGRAM GUIDE UPDATES" do anyway? People still get TVGOS data no matter how this is set. I thought it determined when the DVR would scan all the channels for PSIP data but to get PSIP you still need to tune the channel.

* One idea is that power glitches cause the reboots but I have a microwave oven and a telephone that are very sensitive and they don't reset at the same time. Some have put their unit on a UPS and reported no problem but that does not say they would have a problem without a UPS.

* Some people think the problems are the result of poor Chinese quality control.

* Some people have opened their DVRs to attempt a hard drive upgrade and reported that the SATA cable does not fit very good.

* The pictures they have posted look like the design is good (shock mounts on the disk drive and other little quality touchs).

Bottom line is we don't know what the problem is and we need help. Is there any data we can collect or tests that can be performed on the DVRs that are rebooting to help you diagnose this problem?

I was also told that my problem could be having it plugged into a surge protector. Well I tried plugging directly into the wall outlet, and it did help alot. This makes me think at least for my unit the problem is a marginal power supply.

The manual says plug it into a surge protector.

I was also told that my problem could be having it plugged into a surge protector. Well I tried plugging directly into the wall outlet, and it did help alot. This makes me think at least for my unit the problem is a marginal power supply.

Wow. I'm a mechanical engineer, not a EE, but I can't imagine how any device with an embedded computer could be less stable when plugged into a surge suppressor. Could a EE elaborate?

Thanks in advance,

Jim

I'm looking to get my parents an OTA HD DVR, and have been following this thread for about two months. I thought that the DTV Pal DVR might be the solution, but I am concerned with all of the issues I have been reading about...

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.Personally, if I were you, I'd wait a bit longer. Just use the Panny DVR - worts and all - for now and see if Dish comes out with revised hardware that solves these problems and or software that does the same. TiVo will cost over $600 for a 2-tuner HD DVR with lifetime programming, and Moxi is $800 out the gate.

I'd hold out on getting a new one for the peeps if it were me.

My Credit Card bill for this is coming due in about 15 days. I wonder if I should put a hold on Payment till I get my replacement unit ? I was told it would be here by Monday........

I think that all they do is look here (http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/receiver/tr50.shtml), if the issue isn't listed, it isn't a known issue.

Interesting... Checking on that page for inaccurate clock, their diagnostic questions are "is there a cbs station" and "do they send TVGOS". However some previous writers here have noted that the clock also sets from PSIP. (Indeed, it seems to do so, as I have never set mine, and do not have TVGOS.) Apparently the people who write the tech support do not know how their own equipment works.

I suspect that some stations are not maintaining very accurate time, even though ATSC A/65C calls for the time sent in the system time table of PSIP to be within one second. One may also need to remind the stations that they are supposed to keep the PSIP time accurate to within 1 second.

Rationally, the receiver should compute offsets from internal time, reject the ones with substantially different time, and determine which station(s) should be used for time.

I started to look into this when I discovered that my unit is running about 25 seconds slow. Thus, the 1 minute pre-roll for recording was only about 35 seconds, and it clipped the beginning of a program. (The 2 min 25 seconds after the program seemed more than enough...)

If anyone knows how to get the PSIP delivered to me from a HDHomeRun in some useful way for time checking, please let me know, as it would be amusing to write something to track how well the stations are doing.

Alan

I still think lockups etc are caused by bad reception. I have had over half a dozen HDTV tuners over the past 10 years or so and I can lock up every single one of them by tuning the wrong station and then turning my antenna.

But the difference here is we have 2 tuners and if both are not used one may be scanning for psip data on each channel multiplying the chance of this problem.

I have only had a problem like once in 3 or 4 days. Was wondering if someone with frequent lockups can find 2 channels that come in with like 98% signal on the meter and then start recording on these two tying up the tuners. Does that then reduce or stop the lock ups?

Power issues I seriously doubt are the problem as mine is on a ups with continuous sine wave output isolated from the power line but I have still had a reboot.

The idea of swapping boxes would also help to prove if particular reception issues are the cause of the problems.

Now if we can find a unit that is froze up to see if this works.


I tried it last night, with no results. I was locked up, and held the power button for about a minute, and nothing happened. I had to unplug the unit to reset it.

Interesting... Checking on that page for inaccurate clock, their diagnostic questions are "is there a cbs station" and "do they send TVGOS". However some previous writers here have noted that the clock also sets from PSIP. (Indeed, it seems to do so, as I have never set mine, and do not have TVGOS.) Apparently the people who write the tech support do not know how their own equipment works.

I suspect that some stations are not maintaining very accurate time, even though ATSC A/65C calls for the time sent in the system time table of PSIP to be within one second. One may also need to remind the stations that they are supposed to keep the PSIP time accurate to within 1 second.

Rationally, the receiver should compute offsets from internal time, reject the ones with substantially different time, and determine which station(s) should be used for time.

I started to look into this when I discovered that my unit is running about 25 seconds slow. Thus, the 1 minute pre-roll for recording was only about 35 seconds, and it clipped the beginning of a program. (The 2 min 25 seconds after the program seemed more than enough...)

If anyone knows how to get the PSIP delivered to me from a HDHomeRun in some useful way for time checking, please let me know, as it would be amusing to write something to track how well the stations are doing.

Alan

Some stations not keeping accurate time ?

GEE - YOU THINK SO ?!?!?!

All you have to do is go read the threads about the DTVPAL and people wailing about timers not firing / time all screwed up etc. to figure that one out ...

The stations are SUPPOSED to have their PSIP time accurate within a second or two - I suspect most viewers would be happy if they were within a MINUTE or TWO. There are documented cases of time not being adjusted for DST, just plain way off for no good reason, cases where it was 15 or so minutes off and the station corrects it... you name it, it's been seen. With any luck, when the stations turn off their analog signal, they will start paying more attention to this.

If your local digital CBS is doing TVGOS, that is going to be THE most accurate time among all your local stations.

I had my first problem yesterday since receiving the DVR on 12/24. But I don't think this problem has been discussed before.

I recorded "The last Templar" on NBC on Sunday and watched it last night. Our local affiliated was running a "Wind Chill" indicator in the lower right corner of the screen all night, which meant that the entire show was broadcast in 480i instead of 1080i. The entire show seemed to have a stop-motion effect, meaning that at least 3 to 5 frames per second were missing for the entire 3 hour event, even commercials. I don't know if the down-conversion had anything to do with this.

My Playstation 3 has done the exact same thing a few times when playing Blu Ray movies, but that could be fixed by stopping and restarting the movie. Nothing could make the recording return to normal.

I tried it last night, with no results. I was locked up, and held the power button for about a minute, and nothing happened. I had to unplug the unit to reset it.

Want to pre-order a Clapper surge protector?
Clap off, clap on, the Cl....

Warranty begins date of pre-order.

I still think lockups etc are caused by bad reception. I have had over half a dozen HDTV tuners over the past 10 years or so and I can lock up every single one of them by tuning the wrong station and then turning my antenna.

But the difference here is we have 2 tuners and if both are not used one may be scanning for psip data on each channel multiplying the chance of this problem.

I have only had a problem like once in 3 or 4 days. Was wondering if someone with frequent lockups can find 2 channels that come in with like 98% signal on the meter and then start recording on these two tying up the tuners. Does that then reduce or stop the lock ups?

Power issues I seriously doubt are the problem as mine is on a ups with continuous sine wave output isolated from the power line but I have still had a reboot.

The idea of swapping boxes would also help to prove if particular reception issues are the cause of the problems.

I've got plenty of signal (over 90% on all stations) and both of my reboots have happened when watching something previously recorded. Fortunately nothing was actively recording at the time of the reboots.

Warranty begins date of pre-order.

I wonder if the FCC or or your states trade commission would agree? How about your CC company? I believe if Dish tries to leave everybody holding the bag there will be a class action lawsuit.

So I live in an area where I pick up two DMAs (Baltimore and DC). For the first few weeks of use, I was getting TVGOS data for both markets. That changed in the last two days. Now I only get TVGOS data for one or the other. And it depends on the zip. A DC zip gets me TVGOS data for DC channels only, and vice versa. I just set my zip to all zeros, and will have to wait to see if I get both markets, or none as a result.

Anyone else pull in two markets? Anyone here pulling in both DC and Baltimore? I still am only getting TVGOS data from one market depending on the zip, and it is a PITA. I don't know why I got TVGOS data for both markets for weeks, and then suddenly changed to single market only.

I was also told that my problem could be having it plugged into a surge protector. Well I tried plugging directly into the wall outlet, and it did help alot. This makes me think at least for my unit the problem is a marginal power supply.Wow. I'm a mechanical engineer, not a EE, but I can't imagine how any device with an embedded computer could be less stable when plugged into a surge suppressor. Could a EE elaborate?

Thanks in advance,

JimI'm an EE and I can elaborate:

IT'S A MECHANICAL PROBLEM!! :D

Seriously, I've had a problem in the past with one of my 3 DVD jukeboxes shutting down randomly while watching a movie. This happened off and on for a few months before I found the problem: The socket in my big surge suppressor into which this unit was plugged was not making reliable contact with the plug for the DVD player. I could observe this by wiggling the plug very slightly and observing the shutdown. Since my subwoofer sits in my entertainment center JUST NEXT TO my surge suppressor, the vibration from the subwoofer was likely what caused the connection in the outlet to be lost while watching a movie.

The bottom line here is that some outlets in surge suppressors may not be as reliable as those in your wall. As such, it doesn't seem too unreasonable for Dish to ask us to try plugging directly into the wall. Perhaps the DTVPal is *extremely* sensitive to even momentary power disruptions.

While I still use this surge suppression in my entertainment system, my DTVPal DVR is plugged into a different power strip with is plugged into a different surge suppressor. (I've had exactly one reboot in the month I have had the unit and my reboot happened coincidentally with a remote button press. I'm hoping that's something that firmware will fix.)

One other potential issue in a surge suppressor is that it is very likely that there is higher impedance in the part of the suppressor that suppresses surges. If so, and if all of plugs in the suppressor share this higher-impedance part in a common current path, then high currents drawn by OTHER equipment such as a television can reduce the voltage available to ALL the equipment plugged into the strip, including the DTVPal DVR.

I've had my DVR since 1/20/09. I still do not have a working remote control (Dish sent a replacement, but the wrong one). In the mean time, I can do a few things with my universal remote.

I set up 2 30 minute recordings (back-to-back, same channel) and a 60 minute recording at the same time. I set these up as weekly recordings with no errors. I checked the timers a couple hours before the scheduled recording and everything looked good. Later, when I went to check what was recorded, I discovered that it only recorded the 60 minute program and the second 30 minute program. I then checked the timers and the DVR had also deleted the first 30 minute program timer. Completely unreliable.

I then set up a 60 minute recording (M-F) @ 12:00 PM (noon). I came home on Monday at 7:30PM and the red LED was still on. Without a working remote control, I had to unplug the DVR to reboot it. When it came back up, I checked the recordings list and there was nothing there. The red LED was on for 7.5 hours and recorded nothing? Useless.

Has anyone discovered how to get to the TVGOS diagnostic menus (presuming one can), like the 753159852 code used by other TVGOS products? I would like to know which TVGOS host channel the DVR is using. Also, can this DVR use more than one TVGOS host channel, or does it lock onto one and use only that one?

I still think lockups etc are caused by bad reception. I have had over half a dozen HDTV tuners over the past 10 years or so and I can lock up every single one of them by tuning the wrong station and then turning my antenna.

But the difference here is we have 2 tuners and if both are not used one may be scanning for psip data on each channel multiplying the chance of this problem.

I have only had a problem like once in 3 or 4 days. Was wondering if someone with frequent lockups can find 2 channels that come in with like 98% signal on the meter and then start recording on these two tying up the tuners. Does that then reduce or stop the lock ups?

Power issues I seriously doubt are the problem as mine is on a ups with continuous sine wave output isolated from the power line but I have still had a reboot.

The idea of swapping boxes would also help to prove if particular reception issues are the cause of the problems.This is a VERY interesting theory. As noted previously, I have used Chapelrun's box in my setup and reported having 4 reboots within a 20 minute period, even though I've only had one reboot in an entire month with my box. Also note that Chapelrun has had very few problems since I returned the unit to him: one freeze and three reboots in a month, IIRC.

But here's something I didn't report that may lend credence to your theory: Chapelrun receives SEVERAL channels that I cannot receive with my setup. Since I did not want to disrupt his settings, I did not perform a factory reset and scan in MY channels. I just kept the channel lineup that he had in place. But I think I DID add a channel that Chapelrun does not receive. I wonder three things now:

1) Did I experience reboots with Chapelrun's unit because it had channels in the lineup that I cannot receive?
2) Did Chapelrun experience at least some of his problems after getting the unit back because I added channels that he does not receive?
3) My DTVPal added a channel a while back that I do not normally receive. I didn't bother to delete that channel back out of my lineup for several days. I'm wondering if my one lockup occured during the period when that channel was in my lineup.I've got plenty of signal (over 90% on all stations) and both of my reboots have happened when watching something previously recorded. Fortunately nothing was actively recording at the time of the reboots.I don't think that's conclusive, since there is no way for you to know whether one or both of your tuners could have been doing something else, such as downloading PSIP data for channels that do not have TVGOS, searching for new channels, or perhaps something else...

As you can see the Power input levels changed significantly (when I switched amp's), and the Pal "Signal" readings remained (mostly) the same.
I still could be wrong with my assumption but...
This is how I came to my conclusion that it is "Signal Quality".I'm sure you are right that it is a signal quality meter. It reads almost exactly the same numbers as the signal quality meter on my Sony TV. The Sony has a nice diagnostic screen that includes Signal-to-Noise in dB and that meter scales directly to the signal quality bar graph with 54 = 16dB up to 98 = 32 dB.

I've also examined many of my digital stations with a spectrum analyzer. All of my local stations have mutipath due to terrain problems. Most of the out-of-area stations I can receive have very little multipath. It's very common for those stations to be 10 or 20 dB weaker than the locals yet the signal quality meter reads a higher number. The true signal strength meter in the Sony is the AGC number which is an inverted reading, the stronger the signal, the lower the number, regardless of multipath.

I have no experience with the vast majority of TVs out there. I wonder if any have actual signal strength meters? The way to determine this without a spectrum analyzer is to find a case where the meter reads a high number but is unable to display a picture, most likely due to multipath.

It seems to me that a real signal strength meter would not be too useful for most consumers because they wouldn't understand what is happening when the meter showed a strong signal but there was no picture. They'd probably think the TV was broken. ;)

I thought it was interesting that the DTVPal DVR puts a message on the screen when the S/N is low and in danger of breakup or loss.

ChuckThanks, Mebes and Chuck! Great information! I'm convinced now!Here's a thought for those having audio glitches, I live in Kansas City and have this problem with KMBC (the ABC affiliate in KC). Approximately ever 35 seconds the audio hiccups. This station is currently on 2 channels, it is on vhf channel 7 and also a sd version on uhf channel 31, both channels do the hiccuping on the PalDvr, every other channel in town is fine.

I have a antenna in my attic, it runs to the bsmt where it's connected to a splitter/combiner. one side of the splitter goes to the PalDvr, the other side of the splitter goes to my Tivo HD. In other words, both units are hooked to exactly the same antenna. The PalDvr is pretty unusable on this one channel because of the audio glitches, audio on the Tivo HD is fine. This seems to indicate that the problem is with the PalDvr. I also have a RCA converter box hooked to a different antenna and it does fine with the audio.

I'm thinking that either the Pal box itself or the software on the Pal is causing this problem.Previously I reported that I was experiencing sound glitches on both my TV and the DTVPal DVR. However, I've tested recently and find, as you have, that the sound glitches ONLY occur on the DTVPal DVR, not the TV. Why the change?

I think the answer is that I previously was passing through the signal to the TV from the DTVPal DVR and now I am providing identical signals to both units through a power splitter. If that is correct, then this clearly implicates the internal amplifiers at the input of the DTVPal DVR. I'm not home to test this theory right now but I'll be sure to do that test at some point...

I just got my unit today.

Maybe I'm missing something but it loads the Setup Wizard screen with the options for Continue or Point Antenna and no matter what I press on the remote it doesn't do anything.

Yes, the pal button on the remote is lit up. Any ideas?

I had almost the exact same problem. The remote worked initially to select "Continue", but after it completed the channel scan, the remote didn't work ever again. I'm using a universal remote for now (some buttons don't work, like power on/off). Dish sent me a replacement remote (the wrong one). They're supposed to be sending another replacement.

I too have sound dropouts on one channel (ABC WKBW 7-1 and also on its sub channel 7-2). The tuner in my HDTV does not have this problem.


Following up on my last post, the audio dropouts occur every 31 seconds. Sometimes they are associated with minor pixel problems. No dropout lasts more than 1 second, but the level of severity is not constant. The picture only seems to be affected during the most severe dropouts.

This is the strongest station in my area. I removed my amplified antenna and replaced it with a non-powered loop antenna. 'Signal Strength' dropped from 99 to 83. No effect on the 31 second dropouts.

I then swapped the antenna in coax cable with my HDTV cable since that tuner seems immune to the issue. This coax cable (supplied with the TV) has what appears to be Ferrite Beads on both ends of the cable. When I first made the swap, I thought the problem was gone. It went 5 minutes without a hiccup. Then a drop out occurred, but the next one took 1 minute 33 seconds to show up and on average were 1:33 apart instead of 0:31 which makes me think only the more severe ones were getting through. I will repeat the experiment again tonight to see if I get the same improvement. I also have 2 other digital tuners in the house to experiment with - one of which is the DTVPal $40 converter box.

I do have the option to update the firmware but that is my last resort since the unit overall works quite nicely.

So far very happy with my DVR, I have one from the 2nd batch. No reboots or lockups, great picture, easy recording, what's not to like?

One annoying "feature" is that the box wants to add extra channels to the channel list when it finds them. I prune out the unwanted channels, and then some time (few days or a week) later it finds them and adds them back in.

I've noticed there is an auto-update feature of some kind, but I'm not sure if this is what that would concern. Presently I've left it on, but may turn it off if there is a reason to.

I live about halfway between Washington and Baltimore. I am using my real zipcode. My external rotary antenna stopped rotating a few days ago and is pointed toward Baltimore. I am having the same problem that you are. Most of the past few days, some or all of the Baltimore guide info has been missing. It has to be the CBS affilliates and something they are doing with TVGOS.

Right now, Channel 2, the Baltimore ABC affilliate has no guide info. Channel 11, the NBC affilliate, has guide info for the next half hour. The CBS one is good until 10 p.m. During the next few hours, I also lose a Washington station on Channel 20, but that guide info disappears and comes back during the next few hours.

My new Sony Bravia, that only gets 12 hours of guide at a time, doesn't even show the Baltimore stations right now. It can't be signal strength, as my Baltimore channels are stronger than the DC ones.

It is extremely frustrating as I originally programmed my shows to record from the Baltimore stations. But when the guide isn't showing any TV guide info, it doesn't show if something is set to record during that time. So I have to double check in the Daily Recordings that I have actually set it to record. It is recording the shows with no trouble.

I am tempted to set the DVR to record the same shows on Wash and Baltimore stations for a while and see what happens. At least I'll be able to see that I have them set to record in DC when I look at the guide.

I also want to add that except for my one reboot that I believe was user error, my machine is working wonderfully. The only issue I've had is once a show broke in two and twice I've gotten the error that I've missed some of a show. All of those times I was recording on weak signals. So, I don't consider that a problem with the machine. I believe other people have also associated that with signal strength.

I am one of the people who is thrilled with my machine.

Since Baltimore is one direction and Washington is in the opposite direction and you used your real zip code it's possible you have entered conflicting info.

If your zip puts you in Washington TV area and you were pointed towards Washington on set up the box may still be looking for the Washington host........but it can't find it! Your pointed towards Baltimore now. May take it awhile to find the Baltimore host.
But by then you may be pointed back towards Washington . Then again encounter guide problems.

I'm pointed towards Baltimore and on setup entered a Baltimore zip. I live in Pennsylvania !
But my seven day guide populated the first night and everyday day since.
Now it would seem logical , if I pointed my antenna north towards Harrisburg, the box would continue to look for the Baltimore channel (south )for guide info. Certainly could be a conflict.

I still think lockups etc are caused by bad reception. I have had over half a dozen HDTV tuners over the past 10 years or so and I can lock up every single one of them by tuning the wrong station and then turning my antenna.

But the difference here is we have 2 tuners and if both are not used one may be scanning for psip data on each channel multiplying the chance of this problem.

I have only had a problem like once in 3 or 4 days. Was wondering if someone with frequent lockups can find 2 channels that come in with like 98% signal on the meter and then start recording on these two tying up the tuners. Does that then reduce or stop the lock ups?

Power issues I seriously doubt are the problem as mine is on a ups with continuous sine wave output isolated from the power line but I have still had a reboot.

The idea of swapping boxes would also help to prove if particular reception issues are the cause of the problems.
You could be on to something. Mine has been trouble free since Dec 25, but we're having an ice storm in the Ozarks, and last night my box logged three reboots. I was not watching or recording so it caused no problems. The only thing different was the bad weather.
I get PSIP only BTW.

I just got my unit today.

Maybe I'm missing something but it loads the Setup Wizard screen with the options for Continue or Point Antenna and no matter what I press on the remote it doesn't do anything.

Yes, the pal button on the remote is lit up. Any ideas?

I had almost the same problem. I could get the unit to continue but it never found a channel. If the unit cannot find at least one channel, none of the other buttons will work. The online help guy said that is a firmware setup on all dishs boxes. I think I have an open antenna connection in the box.
I got mine on Dec 24th, sent it back on my dime on Dec 29th and called today Jan 27th. they can't find my box and a supervisor is supposed to call within the next 24 hours. This was sent before they gave R/A numbers to track the boxes.

Wow. I'm a mechanical engineer, not a EE, but I can't imagine how any device with an embedded computer could be less stable when plugged into a surge suppressor. Could a EE elaborate?

Thanks in advance,

Jim

The surge suppressor suppresses all the happy electrons. This device enjoys the happy electrons, so in a normal outlet, it gets the happy ones and performs better.

I got a reply to yesterday’s email to Tech@echostar.com which kind of surprised me.

I've already bypassed the surge protector and plugged directly into the wall. My surge suppressor strip is behind my 55" RPTV so is not readily accessible when the unit locks up! In fact I moved the plug when the unit had the HD error described below and have had multiple reboots and a lock-up since. I KNOW the antenna is grounded since I drove the ground rod and connected it myself. The only thing I have left to do is remove the power form the line amp. I may just remove the line amp all together. I probably don't need it anymore since I don't have nearly as many splits in the line as I used to.

If that doesn't work I'll be attempting to return the unit. If it does I will certainly let everyone know.


-------------------------
Thank you for your email. We apologize for any inconvenience this issue has caused. At this point I would recommend removing any possible ground issues, verifying the antenna is grounded and if there is a power supply it is directed correctly. Additionally I would recommend if you have a surge protector to attempt to bypass it, if you do not I would recommend putting one in as this could be a grounding issue in the house, and possibly a corrupted ground in the surge protector. If these fail I would recommend calling 1-800-333-3474 or using the live chat link below to create an account and schedule an exchange.

Your business is greatly appreciated and we thank you for allowing us to be of assistance to you. If you have further questions you can respond to this e-mail or access our online technical support at the following link: http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/techportal/index.shtml

A Technical Service Representative is available via live chat 24 hours a day, 7 days per week regarding your concerns. Please click the following link to use this option. http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/techportal/content/tech/techchatadvcustformrf23.shtml

Thank you,

Phillip R.

DISH Network Technical E-care

** Please include all previous correspondence when replying. **

-----original message-----


Good morning;

I received my DTVPal DVR week before last and I've had it installed since last Saturday (1/18/09). I've experienced random reboots since I got it hooked up but they are getting more frequent. Yesterday (Sunday 1/25/09) I had 8 reboots in a 4 hour period with an additional HD error that stated that the unit needed to be unplugged for 15 seconds.

The reboots mostly occurred at roughly 30 minute intervals while watching TV. One occurred while watching TV and recording another show and another while watching delayed TV (loosing the delay during the reboot).

I updated the SW during the initial setup. The reboots have occurred while I have had the automatic updates enabled and disabled (currently disabled). I do receive the TVGOS signal and have put in my true zip of 80234 (Denver Metro) but have not set up the DTVPal to pass the signal along to other devices.

I am connected via the Component Video connection.

Any advice you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

I've been writing Macrovision because the TVGos service quit working in my area therefore I haven't gotten any TVGos data on my DTVPal DVR as of yet. However I got a very strange reply that it should start working after February 17th, but the DVR won't work anymore..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Response (Jay Navarro) - 01/27/2009 02:00 PM
Wallace,

There are 2 separate issue here, first we are currently NOT providing the data that the DTVPal needs in order to get listings, so you should not, and will not get listings until after the Feb 17th switch over to digital. The second issue is that the DTVPal DVR is not fully compatible with TVGuide Onscreen, yes it will pass listings to your TVGuide enabled device, but in that "mode" it will disable the DVR completely. In order to use the DVR you would need to disable the TVGuide and use the provided guide ( This is a PZip Guide, and not in anyway affiliated to us) built into the DTVPal. I hope this clears up the confusion, any other questions or issue with the DTVPAL will need to be addressed with Echostar."

That doesn't make any sense to me.. Why would Echostar put this in the DVR if it's going to disable DVR functionality.. That makes absolutely no sense.. I didn't see any option to turn on or disable the TVGos.. Can anyone who is receiving the TVGos on their DTVPal DVR confirm this, or does this guy not know what he's talking about?

Why would Echostar put this in the DVR if it's going to disable DVR functionality.. That makes absolutely no sense.. I didn't see any option to turn on or disable the TVGos.. Can anyone who is receiving the TVGos on their DTVPal DVR confirm this, or does this guy not know what he's talking about?

It actually sounds to me that he does know what he is talking about. Look through the manual and there is a section on getting the TVGuide data to pass through to another TVGuide enabled device. If you attempt to enter that menu section on the DVR it warns that the DVR functionality will be disabled. I also know for a fact that what the Pal is displaying is not full TVGuide because my TV has TVGOS and it has much more detailed program info on the TV then the DVR even though the DVR displays the TVG logo.

Kind of annoying knowing that this guide may work better after the switchover, except now may be delayed...:mad:

Here was my chat 5min. ago:

(24DrDepT): Thank you for choosing Dish Network the leader in HD and DVR service this is Cynthia (OP: L15) with Advanced Technical Support. Please give me 2-3 minutes to access your account and review the information you have already provided.
(24DrDepT): I'll gladly help you.
(24DrDepT): What can I do for you?
Andrew: Thank you I have this info here I'll just paste to the message.
(24DrDepT): Ok.
Andrew: I own two of these and one worked fine for weeks then started rebooting periodically. The second one I received Jan 19th and the next day had a lock up and since then have had a few reboots. I go to a forum called AVSForum and these problems seems rampant with the PAL DVR. I would like to know what is being done to correct these issues and at what time line. Also I would like to know that this is written in my file so if I need it repaired after
(24DrDepT): Thank you. Let me look into the issue.
Andrew: sorry the end of my message is here: ...so if I need it repaired after the 90 Warranty that this will be covered since these are known issues.
(24DrDepT): Thank you.
(24DrDepT): As far as the all the issues you've experienced, it is documented into your account. Every DTV Pal you receive comes with the standard one year warranty.
Andrew: It says in the manual that it is only a 90 day warranty for parts and labor.
(24DrDepT): Also, we are in process of getting new software out to our customers to deal with the factory software issues.
(24DrDepT): All of our receivers, converter boxes included have 1 year warranty.
Andrew: Do you know if the new software addresses both of these issues. I ask because several years ago I purchased and piece of electronics and it had a glitch that needed to recall because a part was placed too close to a heat source and if that is the problem then once again I want to be covered past the 90 Day period. I know you said one year and that would be great and the norm from warranties but I just double checked the manual and it says 90 days
Andrew: Do you know if they changed to a one year warranty or if it was a typo?
(24DrDepT): I'm not sure why that would differ. I will double check for you. I'm not entirely sure what is entailed with the new software release as it's still in the works as there has been several known issues identified.
(24DrDepT): You are absolutely right. "The TRC40-CRA/DTVPal come with 90 day warranties."
(24DrDepT): However, the processing for returns in on a case by case basis.
Andrew: So once again I want to be rest assured that if this is found to be a hardware issue and it is beyond the 90 days that I will indeed be covered.
(24DrDepT): I'm certain that as long as you keep us posted, if in case you fall past your 90 days and it needs to be replaced, we can work something out with you.
Andrew: OK well thank you for your time.
(24DrDepT): No worries. I've noted your account, just in case.
Your session has ended.

Installed my DTV Pal DVR a week ago. Proceeding very slowly, haven't even watched anything yet. Have entered some events from the guide which seem to have been recorded ok.

Every time I try to enter an event manually, with manually entered times, I get Error A674 which is defined as "You have selected record in the guide for an event that is already recording." I don't think that's so, but there's no more info to figure out what is going on.

Any suggestions? Thanks.

Installed my DTV Pal DVR a week ago. Proceeding very slowly, haven't even watched anything yet. Have entered some events from the guide which seem to have been recorded ok.

Every time I try to enter an event manually, with manually entered times, I get Error A674 which is defined as "You have selected record in the guide for an event that is already recording." I don't think that's so, but there's no more info to figure out what is going on.

Any suggestions? Thanks.

I to have this problem, get my PSIP info from El Paso TX stations. (you also) this problem others have had and it appears it is because the event is not in the PSIP guid yet. I found it is best just to wait until the info is in the guide and then schedule the program.

Any suggestions? Thanks.


You might try rebooting by holding down the remote's on/off button for about ten seconds. It might flush any problems from memory.

This is just a guess and not sure what it will do with any TVGOS listings. My DVR rescans for PSIP info after reboot. I don't have TVGOS.

H
(24DrDepT): You are absolutely right. "The TRC40-CRA/DTVPal come with 90 day warranties."


You didn't catch that...they didn't even know which unit you were talking about. That is the TR-40 non-DVR CEBC Box.

"If your zip puts you in Washington TV area and you were pointed towards Washington on set up the box may still be looking for the Washington host........but it can't find it! Your pointed towards Baltimore now. May take it awhile to find the Baltimore host.
But by then you may be pointed back towards Washington . Then again encounter guide problems."

(Sorry, I haven't figured out how to make part of an old quote show up correctly yet.)

-----------------------------

I don't believe that is the problem. I am only pointed to Baltimore. My antenna froze up shortly before my DTVpal DVR arrived. It is just odd as the information that is available keeps changing.

Right now, my Balt. ABC and NBC show no information available, while my CBS one has data until 4 a.m. Currently, my Washington NBC affilliate, which is usually channel 4.1 is now channel 48.1. It did this a day or so ago and then switched back.

I really think it is them, not us.

Anyone outside of the Balt/DC area experiencing TVGOS channel info vanishing and reappearing?

I to have this problem, get my PSIP info from El Paso TX stations. (you also) this problem others have had and it appears it is because the event is not in the PSIP guid yet. I found it is best just to wait until the info is in the guide and then schedule the program.
Exactly. Once it shows in the guide you can set a timer for it either through the guide or manually, even if all it shows
is "DTV Program" (which it will if its listed but the station has not supplied any program info).

Exactly. Once it shows in the guide you can set a timer for it either through the guide or manually, even if all it shows
is "DTV Program" (which it will if its listed but the station has not supplied any program info).

Hmm, this box is screwy. I believe I have set up several manual timers beyond the PSIP range (around 12 hours) before.

Earlier today I set up a manual timer for a three hour chunk, for tomorrow night, because I was unsure what time LOST is on. I just checked and it is listed in "Daily Schedule", but not marked as a pending recording in the Guide. It just has "No Information Available".

Trying to put a finger on these box's problems are elusive indeed.

Regarding the Baltimore/Washington guide problems. Without moving my antenna, if I enter a DC zip, I will get TVGOS info for DC stations only and PSIP for Baltimore. Conversely, if I enter a Baltimore zip, I will get TVGOS info for Baltimore stations only and PSIP for DC.

I used to get both DC and Baltimore TVGOS with either cities' zipcode. Something went fubar in the last couple of days. I just didn't know if it was limited to my unit, or if other DC/Baltimore users were experiencing the same frustration with the guide.

I recorded "The last Templar" on NBC on Sunday and watched it last night. Our local affiliated was running a "Wind Chill" indicator in the lower right corner of the screen all night, which meant that the entire show was broadcast in 480i instead of 1080i. The entire show seemed to have a stop-motion effect, meaning that at least 3 to 5 frames per second were missing for the entire 3 hour event, even commercials. I don't know if the down-conversion had anything to do with this.

Man that just sucks! I wish these stations would figure out what the heck they are doing with respect to HD.

We were watching the Olympics Opening Ceremony last summer (just with the HDTV) and you could tell when they were about to do something goofy because the nice 16:9 HD screen would all of a sudden snap back to horrible soft 4:3 and some kind scroll or lottery thing would appear. I hated that!

I was watching Lost last night and after each commercial, the screen would be 4:3 for an instance before snapping back to 16:9. I'm always afraid they will forget to hit the right button or whatever that are doing and I'll be watching SD.

Personally, if I were you, I'd wait a bit longer. Just use the Panny DVR - worts and all - for now and see if Dish comes out with revised hardware that solves these problems and or software that does the same. TiVo will cost over $600 for a 2-tuner HD DVR with lifetime programming, and Moxi is $800 out the gate.

I'd hold out on getting a new one for the peeps if it were me.

I've been following this for a while, and I initially thought I would get a dish dtvpal dvr, but I didn't. I got a Tivo HD with lifetime service for around $500 - 6months old from a private party on Amazon.

I've been running it for a good week, no issues whatsoever, manual recordings, Season Pass, netflix, youtube and I love it. The extra $250 I paid for it for the subscription - you have to ask yourself what your aggravation is worth - is definitely worth it to me and my family.

I use a DB4 antenna, no cable tv and the picture is fabulous. The Tivo atsc tuner(x2) is hands down better than an Apex DTV converter box I also use.

It's too bad Dish didn't come flying out the gate with a reliable product because it is sorely needed and I'd probably have one instead of the Tivo HD.

Wait? When I can save $80/mo by cancelling my TWC Digital tv and dvr service, why should I wait? In three months Dish may solve most of their issues but by then I saved the extra $250 in lifetime subscription by cancelling TWC and I had a working box for three months.

Anyone else pull in two markets? Anyone here pulling in both DC and Baltimore? I still am only getting TVGOS data from one market depending on the zip, and it is a PITA. I don't know why I got TVGOS data for both markets for weeks, and then suddenly changed to single market only.

I get Baltimore and Harrisburg, PA. Harrisburg CBS is not suppose to have TVGOS (doesn't matter because I can't get that station anyway). So my TVGOS comes from Baltimore (I'm using Baltimore zip, though I'm in PA). I was getting 7-day guide data on several but not all Harrisburg channels. However, looking at the guide a couple of nights ago I noticed that none of Harrisburg channels had 7-days anymore.

Since several people had reported that they could not get the TVGOS Digital to Analog conversion to work with their DRVPals I thought I would see if I could get it to work with my DVR even though I knew it would not be a useful feature with a dual tuner DVR. I couldn't. I contacted TV Guide to see if they had any ideas or special chants to make it work. This is the response I received.

Unfortunately at this time we are not passing the data in the format that the DTVPAL is looking for. At this point I do not have date as to when we will start providing the data in that format. Also to let you know, with the DTVPAL when we start broadcasting the format that it is looking for, if you set the DTVPAL to pass the TVGOS data to your DMR-EH85, the DVR function will no longer work on the DTVPAL.

I've been writing Macrovision because the TVGos service quit working in my area therefore I haven't gotten any TVGos data on my DTVPal DVR as of yet. However I got a very strange reply that it should start working after February 17th, but the DVR won't work anymore..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Response (Jay Navarro) - 01/27/2009 02:00 PM
Wallace,

There are 2 separate issue here, first we are currently NOT providing the data that the DTVPal needs in order to get listings, so you should not, and will not get listings until after the Feb 17th switch over to digital. The second issue is that the DTVPal DVR is not fully compatible with TVGuide Onscreen, yes it will pass listings to your TVGuide enabled device, but in that "mode" it will disable the DVR completely. In order to use the DVR you would need to disable the TVGuide and use the provided guide ( This is a PZip Guide, and not in anyway affiliated to us) built into the DTVPal. I hope this clears up the confusion, any other questions or issue with the DTVPAL will need to be addressed with Echostar."

That doesn't make any sense to me.. Why would Echostar put this in the DVR if it's going to disable DVR functionality.. That makes absolutely no sense.. I didn't see any option to turn on or disable the TVGos.. Can anyone who is receiving the TVGos on their DTVPal DVR confirm this, or does this guy not know what he's talking about?

The manual may be a bit confusing but as they say there are two issues.

Basically you can use the DTVPal DVR (or DTVPal) to convert special data sent with the digital TVGOS data to a form that your existing analog TVGOS enabled device to keep functioning or you can display a programming guide with the DTVPal DVR but not both. Someone said that the program descriptions that they get with the DVR are different than the program descriptions that they get on their TV using PSIP. The only differance I see is that the CBS station and one PBS station has a full week of data but the descriptions are the same.

At this point all we know is that digital TVGOS is not fully functional and the data for the conversion feature is nonexistant.

No one has figured why you would want to use the TVGOS passthrough with a DTVPal DVR, it appears to be a hold over from the DTVPal.

Installed my DTV Pal DVR a week ago. Proceeding very slowly, haven't even watched anything yet. Have entered some events from the guide which seem to have been recorded ok.

Every time I try to enter an event manually, with manually entered times, I get Error A674 which is defined as "You have selected record in the guide for an event that is already recording." I don't think that's so, but there's no more info to figure out what is going on.

Any suggestions? Thanks.

Live with it:)

Seriously this is a known problem. When you read the posts talking about not being able to schedule a timer where there is no guide info or schedule a timer in the future this is what they are talking about.

Yes. That testing method may not provide any meaningful data.
With signals as strong as you show, the tuner's automatic gain control could already be limiting the signal strength.
Generally, if you "over amp" a digital tuner you may actually loose observed signal strength. The Microtune tuner has a very aggressive AGC.

Try this test again without any amp.


I took some power level readings with my Trilithic Model Two.
Then I removed my Blonder Tongue +20dB amp and replaced it with a Pico Macom (Tru Spec) CDA-1A +15dB Drop amp, so I could compare the signal strength readings from PAL with different incoming dBmV power levels.

Results

[Channel] [BT dBmV] [Pal Reading] [Pico dBmV] [Pal Reading]

__16________-1.3______92%_______-10.5_______92%

__21________16.0______95%_________8.6_______95%

__22________13.3______99%_________4.5_______99%

__26_________5.2______90%________-1.4_______91%

__32_________6.2______99% ________0.8______100%

__34_________5.1_____100%_________2.3______100%

__35_________4.4______97%_________2.5_______96%

__44________-9.6______89%________-5.7_______90%

__50________-5.8______90%_________1.0_______92%

S


So I removed the amp from my system as "Beeper" suggested, and since I still was able to tune channels on my PAL DVR, I left the 8 way splitter in place.
Also for those who may be interested, I have also included signal readings from a CECB DTV PAL.


[Channel] [Antenna dBmV] [Pal DVR Reading] [CECB DTV PAL Reading]

__16________-7.2_______________83%________________77%

__21________-7.3_______________95%________________91%

__22_______-10.7_______________93%________________91%

__26_______-16.5_______________89%________________85%

__32_______-13.3_______________95% _______________92%

__34_______-12.2_______________99%________________94%

__35_______-12.6_______________93%________________91%

__44_______-19.1_______________85%________________80%

__50_______-13.5_______________90%________________83%

S

I got a reply to yesterday’s email to Tech@echostar.com which kind of surprised me.

I've already bypassed the surge protector and plugged directly into the wall. My surge suppressor strip is behind my 55" RPTV so is not readily accessible when the unit locks up! In fact I moved the plug when the unit had the HD error described below and have had multiple reboots and a lock-up since. I KNOW the antenna is grounded since I drove the ground rod and connected it myself. The only thing I have left to do is remove the power form the line amp. I may just remove the line amp all together. I probably don't need it anymore since I don't have nearly as many splits in the line as I used to.

If that doesn't work I'll be attempting to return the unit. If it does I will certainly let everyone know.


I got the same thing. I've plugged directly into the wall now, and to be honest, the resets have really, really, gone down. Screwy if you ask me.

I had another weird thing happen today. At one point, the clock stopped working and could not be reset (because it was obtained by TV Guide). At the same time, the green power light was OFF when the unit was on. When I turned the unit off....guess what? The green light turned on. This prompted me to perform a reboot myself. Back to "normal" now.

This is a VERY interesting theory. As noted previously, I have used Chapelrun's box in my setup and reported having 4 reboots within a 20 minute period, even though I've only had one reboot in an entire month with my box. Also note that Chapelrun has had very few problems since I returned the unit to him: one freeze and three reboots in a month, IIRC.

But here's something I didn't report that may lend credence to your theory: Chapelrun receives SEVERAL channels that I cannot receive with my setup. Since I did not want to disrupt his settings, I did not perform a factory reset and scan in MY channels. I just kept the channel lineup that he had in place. But I think I DID add a channel that Chapelrun does not receive. I wonder three things now:

1) Did I experience reboots with Chapelrun's unit because it had channels in the lineup that I cannot receive?
2) Did Chapelrun experience at least some of his problems after getting the unit back because I added channels that he does not receive?
3) My DTVPal added a channel a while back that I do not normally receive. I didn't bother to delete that channel back out of my lineup for several days. I'm wondering if my one lockup occured during the period when that channel was in my lineup.I don't think that's conclusive, since there is no way for you to know whether one or both of your tuners could have been doing something else, such as downloading PSIP data for channels that do not have TVGOS, searching for new channels, or perhaps something else...

One thing we could try is I could bring my DTVPAL DVR over to Reg's house again and see if we could get it to fail again. Since it rebooted at least 4 times at Reg's house and only a few times at my house this might give some additional clues as related to whether or not signal level is part of the problem.

I will start by taken reading using the "Point Antenna" with my setup. I will only use UHF for channels I know both of us can get.

Menu>Setup(3)>SystemSetup(2)>Installation(1)>SetupWizard(1)>PointAntenna

Channel - - - Station - - - Signal Strength

34 - - - - - - WUSA - - - - -96
35 - - - - - - WDCA - - - - -98
36 - - - - - - WTTG - - - - -98
38 - - - - - - WJZ - - - - - -78
39 - - - - - - WJLA - - - - - 83
43 - - - - - - WPXW- - - - - 71
48 - - - - - - WRC - - - - - -85
51 - - - - - - WDCW - - - - -95
52 - - - - - - WMAR - - - - -90
59 - - - - - - WBAL - - - - - 80

Once I can get with Reg I will take this same DTVPAL DVR to his house and compair the readings using his setup. Then I will do a system reset - - load factory defaults, run setup and compair again. I hope to get additional lockups and reboots at Reg's house as this may give additional data points to solving the problem.

Just so you know my setup is the following; Very old Channel Master antenna for VHF, XG-91 for UHF, both amplified by a Channel Master 7777, 50' of RG6, to a splitter feeding both the Antenna In on the TV and the DTVPAL DVR.

This might not tell us anything but it is worth a shot.

So I live in an area where I pick up two DMAs (Baltimore and DC). For the first few weeks of use, I was getting TVGOS data for both markets. That changed in the last two days. Now I only get TVGOS data for one or the other. And it depends on the zip. A DC zip gets me TVGOS data for DC channels only, and vice versa.


Same thing happened here, with the change happening sometime last week regarding Digital TVGoS data from WKRC-DT Cincinnati and/or WHIO-DT Dayton. Note TsReader info and testing has confirmed both of those stations are indeed sending TVGoS digital guide info, and that the DTVPal DVR is supporting it to some extent.

From jan 7 until sometime last week using my Actual Zip, which is(barely) In Cincy DMA --- I would get TVGoS listings for Both Dayton+Cincinnati Stations, including per testing as received ONLY from WKRC Cincinnati. I didn't however attempt to previously test it fully to see If I could get the Cincinnati stations TVGoS listings if I put in say, a Dayton DMA Zip and set things up so I could *only* receive the TVGoS listings from WHIO, but I did test TVGOS for the Dayton(only) stations with WHIO(only) and a Dayton area Zip and that worked, as it still does ...

Now, and since sometime last week however, I'm only getting TVGoS listings for Only Cincinnati stations from WKRC using any Cincinnati DMA Zip code I've tried, and only TVGoS listings for Dayton Stations from WHIO with a Dayton Zip code. OF course, I can't do "both" at the "same time", since I can only put in one Zip code! Oh, there may be one exception I haven't looked at 'closely enough', because it's a TBN station which actually sends as much as 7 days of guide info via PSIP EITs (Event Information tables), and the info in their EIT's are very similar to what TVGoS has. It is considered a Dayton market station because it's community of license, Richmond, Indiana is within Dayton DMA, but it actually transmits from a location within Cincinnati DMA.

I've also done some testing the past couple of Days/nights(In some cases involving resetting to factory defaults for each test and setting antenna up using antennas directivity and added attenuation in feedline so that either only WKRC or Only WHIO could be decoded) and it looks like if I put in a Dayton DMA Zip, I won't get any TVGoS data(or even the Logo or info that says the time/date has been retrieved from TVguide) Whatsoever from WKRC (If I have it set up so WHIO can't be received but WKRC Can), and vice versa for Cincy DMA Zip and WHIO(If I have it set up so WKRC can't be received and WHIO Can).

I do not know at this point(nor can I think of a way to find out) if DTVPal DVR can or does use/integrate TVGoS listings being received from multiple stations which are transmitting TVGoS data if the stations involved are scanned in and being received, or just one of them is used, such as say the first one that was initially scanned in ... At this point it's mostly just a wild guess, but I suspect the latter may be the case, and prior to the change last week, as noted earlier I did indeed confirm I was getting TVGoS listings for the dayton stations *from* TVGoS data transmitted by WKRC Cincinnati ....

I *usually* have things set up such that, for instance, WKRC is decoded/received just fine off the "back/side" of an antenna aimed at Dayton, but because i'm in a null for their directional TX antenna pattern, and the directivity of my receive antenna(XG91 in this case for UHF) I can't decode WHIO with the antenna aimed at Cincinnati -- For example, performing an initial "scan" (via setup wizard) with the Cincinnati antenna, DTVPal DVR "scans in" All Cincinnati stations and all but 2 Dayton stations --- CBS(WHIO) and WBDT(CW - I'm also in a null in WBDT pattern) .. Then, in this case to scan in those two, I can switch to antenna aimed at Dayton and can use "find new channels" or use "add a new channel" to add them (or wait for them to be automatically added) ... Prior to last week, to set up the DTV Pal DVR for "normal use" what happened was, after factory reset/doing the initial scan with Cincinnati antenna, I then switched to Dayton antenna, added WHIO+WBDT, then Switched immediately back to Cincinnati antenna, and after a period of time(even though WHIO couldn't be received/decoded off the back/side of antenna during that time the guide was being populated), I had TV Guide logo, info in the Time/Date setup that said "Time/date info has been retrieved from TV guide", and TVGoS listings from both Cincinnati+Dayton stations(thus that info solely came from WKRC) ... And, guide info was updated continously for both Cincy+Dayton stations out 7 days from the current time/date ... That of course does not "work" now for both Cincy and Dayton stations beginning sometime last week ....

Note I typically have antenna feeds set up to use A/B switch to switch between the different antennas, although I also have rotor on one antenna setup(mostly used for Dx'ing), and I also for several days on the DTV Pal DVR "combined" the antennas together so all Dayton+Cincinnati Stations could be decoded/received - which, BTW, worked better than I expected with the DTVPal DVR, and better than any other DTV receiver I own --- Such that In fact, it may turn out to be possible to use that method or something similar reliably -- I just don't quite "trust" it yet fully however ....

Anyway, since the change last week(again, after factory resets for each test and various changes regarding the feed(s) from antenna) I've also been trying various Zips for some areas along county/presumably DMA borders where I think some folks in either County(either DMA presumably but not positive about the specifics involved in this case regarding the Neilsen DMA boundries) have the same zip, but with no success so far ...

Oh, also I'm not sure if I tested it "long enough", but when I did try it, , doing a factory reset, then scan, then entering a zip of "00000" and waiting 6 hours or so resulted in NO TVGoS listings (and no logo), so perhaps that may be one way of effectively "disabling" the TVGoS guide data when/if desired ...

Oh, BTW, As long as I'm posting about the Guide stuff ...

A). Regarding the Digital TVGoS listings here :

#1). I've yet to receive any TVGoS listings for The NBC or Fox affiliates in either Dayton or Cincinnati market(4 stations), as well as for one PBS station in Cincinnati Area(There are 3 PBS stations in Cincinnati area, One in Dayton, all have different programming scheudles/different subchannels/etc). TVGoS guide data is also perhaps more understandably missing for a Low Power digital station which recently came on the air, and that station doesn't send any guide info in its PSIP EITs either at this point. However, zaptoit.com does have guide listings for their analog station.

#2). Also, one of the Cincinnati PBS stations switched one of it's subchannels from "PBS world" to "Create" about a month ago, The Digital TVGoS listings for it are still for "World", but the station's PSIP EITs are accurate ....

#3). Another of the Cincy PBS stations has only one subchannel with listings from TVGoS, the info for the other subchannels comes only from PSIP, vs. a Dayton PBS station, where all its subchannels have complete guide info from TVGoS (interestingly enough, a "sister station" to the Cincy area PBS station I'm getting NO TVGos listings for, although these two stations are run by the same organization("ThinkTV") they offer completely different programming on each station.

#4). TVGoS listings are missing for Several other subchannels from various stations as well, but for the most part more understandably so perhaps as they are "weather channels" or similar, or some of the TBN subchannels -- Although, OTOH, Zap2it.com "free" interest guide pretty much has detailed listings for all the digital subchannels in the area, and of course lists both Dayton+Cincinnati stations for my "zip code".

#5).It may be interesting to note that in most cases here, it is the case the Detailed program descriptions in the PSIP EITs are often much more descriptive than the TVGoS listings ... In fact, outside of Network prime time programming, I'll often have a detailed program description from the EIT's (Note I also have other equipment + TSreader to decode the EPG info in the EITs, so it's easy to compare with what the DTVPal DVR is doing and in most cases figure out what is PSIP and what is TVGoS), and just a program title and "No info available" from the digital TVGoS info .... There are some exceptions, however, as for example, currently, the Cincinnati MyNetwork TV affiliate has program title, but no detailed program info in it's PSIP EIT's, whereas the Digital TVGoS listings contain some detailed program descriptions ....

Assuming they actually intend to support the Digital TVGoS listings for use with the DTVPal DVR, It certianly would be nice if one could access BOTH the TVGoS and PSIP info "by subchannel" for each station, and choose which is displayed at any given time .... IT would also perhaps be nice if there was some info (and user "selections") provided regarding which station(s) are being used for The TVGoS listings when multiple stations transmitting Digital TVGoS data are being received .. As well as capability to input multiple "zip codes" and integrate the listings from multiple stations sending TVGoS digital data when necessary/desired ....

Hopefully this situation with the digital TVGoS listings will improve after analog shut off, but I'm not counting on it, especially regarding the recent apparent change for those receiving stations from multiple markets and involving the zip codes and station listings ....

B). Involving the PSIP guide data from the EIT's(event Information Tables) as implemented by DTVPal DVR :

#1). For no apparent rhyme or reason, for some stations at any given time, I might have the EIT data loaded in and displayed for a particular station, then if I navigate through the guide to other station listings and then back, the listings info that was previously there is no gone with "no information available", or, the program title may be there but not the description (which is actually there in the EIT's as confirmed with TSreader as well as other equipment) ... At first, I thought maybe this was happening when a buffer somewhere became full, and perhaps "new info" replaced the older info, until I noticed that certian stations PSIP info seems to "allways stick there" once it's been decoded/updated for the most part/but not allways, while others don't when I switch to viewing the guide info for several different stations ... Perhaps it has something to do with how certian stations are implementing the EIT's, however, I see nothing apparent which might account for these differences by examining how these stations are doing things via TSreader ....

#2). In some cases, I show detailed program descriptions in the EITs with other equipment or software (For example, Hisense DB-2010 or using TSreader), which does not often show up in the DTVPal guide(only program title) ...

#3) There seems to be no rhyme or reason to when the PSIP EIT info is or isn't decoded and displayed ... In some cases, It will get updated without me having recently "tuned to" the specific station involved, in other cases I have to select a channel where it shows "no information" in order for the info in the EIT's to be displayed .... Combined with #1, it should be obvious why this is quite cumbersome ...

#4). Also note Hisense DB-2010 (solely uses the guide info in PSIP EITs for it's "grid" based guide) doesn't have these issues, and fact, even though it's a "single tuner only", actually "tunes to" the different stations when it is "off" and updates the guide info ....

-----------------------------------

FWIW, I'm using F201 ...and have the "k" version (received with Taped bag, and in fact the tape had been cut/box was open on one side upon receiving it) ... At one point, I tried upgrading to F202 with 2 different USB sticks (one old 128MB "staples" stick they gave me free a number of years ago and with no manufactuer info found for it by the DTVPal DVR, the other a 2GB gfm/generic, identifed by the DTVPal DVR as "generic" manufactuer), but it did not work ... In both cases, with nothing on the stick other than a FAT32 File system, "x:" \update Folder and the F202 upgrade in it, it Recognized the USB stick, but apparently didn't even recognize a update was there ....

Anyhow, I've experienced No Reboots/lockups/freezes so far, and have had no problem setting manual timers with "no information available" in the guide, although I've only done limited testing regarding the latter so far ...

Probably more than anyone wanted to know ....

I got tired of the locking up/rebooting so I sent my unit back last week for a replacement.

The good news: I got a replacement unit today. Elapsed time: seven business days.

The bad news: They said I had to return the unit first and pay the shipping charges, so I did. (After I insisted that they confirm this with a "supervisor.") Then when I got the box today, it came without a remote control or a manual, and with a shipping label to send my old unit back for free.

So be sure you find out whether to ship the unit only, and whether you can wait for the shipping label.

For those having lockup / reboots on a regular basis, and if you don't have a tv station real close, why not try leaving the antenna off a couple of days to rule out problems coming from TVGOS and see if the lockups/reboots stop.

Just a thought.

FWIW, I'm using F201 ...and have the "k" version (received with Taped bag, and in fact the tape had been cut/box was open on one side upon receiving it) ... At one point, I tried upgrading to F202 with 2 different USB sticks (one old 128MB "staples" stick they gave me free a number of years ago and with no manufactuer info found for it by the DTVPal DVR, the other a 2GB gfm/generic, identifed by the DTVPal DVR as "generic" manufactuer), but it did not work ... In both cases, with nothing on the stick other than a FAT32 File system, "x:" \update Folder and the F202 upgrade in it, it Recognized the USB stick, but apparently didn't even recognize a update was there ....

Anyhow, I've experienced No Reboots/lockups/freezes so far, and have had no problem setting manual timers with "no information available" in the guide, although I've only done limited testing regarding the latter so far ...

Probably more than anyone wanted to know ....

Ahh, another "K box" surfaces. And one that dosen't reboot or lockup.

Have you tried to update via ethernet?

I too have experienced the "now you see it, now you don't" PSIP info, but only once and I wasn't for sure that I believed my own eyes.

Have you tried to update via ethernet?


Thanks for the suggestion, but No, as :

#1), I'm in rural area/on dial-up internet. The only current broadband options here are very limited and way too expensive ...

#2). If I could get it to work anyway, it would be quite cumbersome to do so, and on 2nd thought I'm not sure I want to upgrade to F202 given (more or less except for some oddities) the unit is working fine as is and, there isn't apparently a way I can "go back" to F201 and AFAIK, since I don't think we know what "improvements" are involved with F202, I probably really have no reason to try to do so at this point, and perhaps it may not even be desirable to do so ....

Really, I tried it just to confirm whether or not I have a way to do a fw upgrade to it for future upgrades/ just want to (hopefully) find a USB stick that will "work" at some point for future possible updates to DTV Pal DVR I might actually want .... Oddly enough, I also tried to update the firmware on other hardware with these same sticks and it didn't work either, so whatever is going on with this isn't "specific" to the DTV Pal DVR for some odd reason ...

Ahh, another "K box" surfaces. And one that dosen't reboot or lockup.

I think there may be more of these than first thought.
As I posted before; I preordered, and received mine around Christmas time (was out of town when it arrived).
It is the "K" version as well, came in a plastic taped bag with 201 fw.
I have not updated it.
Proper zip.
Updates off.
My towers are in Orlando.
Connected via HDMI to Sony KDS-60A2000.
Plugged into a hardwired surge protector receptacle.
TVGOS on all major networks except Fox.
Have manually set recordings for Fox before any info was available, all worked as expected and show actual show names in recordings list after being recorded.
I am a long time ReplayTV user, so I watch only prerecorded or delayed shows, no problems so far.

Thanks for the suggestion, but No, as :

#1), I'm in rural area/on dial-up internet. The only current broadband options here are very limited and way too expensive ...

Windows 98 ME 2K XP and probably Vista, will allow you to share your dial up connection over ethernet.
If you don't want to spend the money on a network hub, you can use a crossover cable.
If you have a network card and a Windows PC it would not be that hard to set it up.

??? I'm trying to think if I have a way to test that here first ???

Anyways if you run Windows and you wan't more info let me know, and I will see if I can come up with some way of testing it first.

Personally I like my old firmware and do not want to upgrade either.

S

I got tired of the locking up/rebooting so I sent my unit back last week for a replacement.

The good news: I got a replacement unit today. Elapsed time: seven business days.

The bad news: They said I had to return the unit first and pay the shipping charges, so I did. (After I insisted that they confirm this with a "supervisor.") Then when I got the box today, it came without a remote control or a manual, and with a shipping label to send my old unit back for free.

So be sure you find out whether to ship the unit only, and whether you can wait for the shipping label.

Maybe they're already planning on you returning the replacement unit... :D

I got tired of the locking up/rebooting so I sent my unit back last week for a replacement.

The good news: I got a replacement unit today. Elapsed time: seven business days.

The bad news: They said I had to return the unit first and pay the shipping charges, so I did. (After I insisted that they confirm this with a "supervisor.") Then when I got the box today, it came without a remote control or a manual, and with a shipping label to send my old unit back for free.

So be sure you find out whether to ship the unit only, and whether you can wait for the shipping label.

I was told to ship mine with out the remote, matter of fact I only sent them the box, I kept remote, cable and all the paper work. I tried to get them to send me a lable but they would not.

If the "K" versions work well why doesn't Dish just release the "K" software? Perhaps the HARDWARE is different and the two aren't compatible?

Perhaps the HARDWARE is different and the two aren't compatible?

That's what I'm thinking.

If the "K" versions work well why doesn't Dish just release the "K" software? Perhaps the HARDWARE is different and the two aren't compatible?

My "L" version has been 100% flawless...so I, personally, wouldn't want a "K" version at this point. :D

I got the same thing. I've plugged directly into the wall now, and to be honest, the resets have really, really, gone down. Screwy if you ask me.

I had another weird thing happen today. At one point, the clock stopped working and could not be reset (because it was obtained by TV Guide). At the same time, the green power light was OFF when the unit was on. When I turned the unit off....guess what? The green light turned on. This prompted me to perform a reboot myself. Back to "normal" now.


Since I moved off of my surge suppressor power strip and directly to the outlet my reboots have gone from roughly every 30 minutes to an average of one an hour. I disconnected my line amp and router last night and it didn't seem to change the frequency of reboots any.

I've written off this DVR. My replacement to be sent with a return shipping label never arrived as promised. After an hour on the phone, I was told to send back on my own dime for a replacement. I argued until they agreed to a refund once they saw it shipped and enroute ... Did that yesterday and called this morning to give tracking # and they said they credited my card ... I'll wait and see if this actually happens. A replacement unit will probably still show up on my door step. Dish CS are completely clueless. Too bad, this was a promising unit had it not rebooted every ten minutes.

Meanwhile, I just ordered my TIVO HD! The $13/month is worth not dealing with Dish problems... and if I ever go back to cable, it's compatible.

I got tired of the locking up/rebooting so I sent my unit back last week for a replacement.

The good news: I got a replacement unit today. Elapsed time: seven business days.

The bad news: They said I had to return the unit first and pay the shipping charges, so I did. (After I insisted that they confirm this with a "supervisor.") Then when I got the box today, it came without a remote control or a manual, and with a shipping label to send my old unit back for free.

So be sure you find out whether to ship the unit only, and whether you can wait for the shipping label.

I sent mine back yesterday, box and all contents (remote, manuals, cables). Has anyone else done this and received a remote with their replacement unit? It was hard enough getting Dish to not screw up the exchange process after a week of phone calls. Now I fear they will just send me the unit without a remote. I'm not sure I'll be able to stay calm on the phone with the Dish service people if that happens.

I programmed my DISH remote to operate my television, DVD player and VCR. Is there a way to change from one input to another using the DISH remote? I looked in the manual, the first post in the thread and searched the thread but can't find anything. It is not convenient to use my DISH remote to do almost everything but have to have my television remote available to change the input to my DVD player. I hope that there is an easy way to do this and that it's just I that can't figure it out on my own. Any help would be appreciated.

I programmed my DISH remote to operate my television, DVD player and VCR. Is there a way to change from one input to another using the DISH remote? I looked in the manual, the first post in the thread and searched the thread but can't find anything. It is not convenient to use my DISH remote to do almost everything but have to have my television remote available to change the input to my DVD player. I hope that there is an easy way to do this and that it's just I that can't figure it out on my own. Any help would be appreciated.

Buy a real universal remote (I.e. Harmony / Sony, etc)

I programmed my DISH remote to operate my television, DVD player and VCR. Is there a way to change from one input to another using the DISH remote? I looked in the manual, the first post in the thread and searched the thread but can't find anything. It is not convenient to use my DISH remote to do almost everything but have to have my television remote available to change the input to my DVD player. I hope that there is an easy way to do this and that it's just I that can't figure it out on my own. Any help would be appreciated.

The analog pass-through button works for my toshiba

I've written off this DVR . . . Meanwhile, I just ordered my TIVO HD! The $13/month is worth not dealing with Dish problems... and if I ever go back to cable, it's compatible.I consider it most unfortunate that I came to that same conclusion over the weekend. The high risk of receiving a unit with rampant reboots and lockups was bad enough, but the nightmare people are going through to get service or replacements from Dish is over the top. It was certainly enough to dissuade this potential buyer. Even if Dish were to fix the problems tomorrow, I would want to see at least 3 months of good reports before I would feel comfortable buying. And even then I would probably hold out for B&M availability to facilitate a return just in case. I'd probably be waiting until August.

Like everyone else, I was hoping for a cheap solution for my need to time-shift in HD. The sub-$300 price tag was tantilizing and got me to hold off purchasing an alternative for 6 months (I bought my plasma in July). I just don't see a timely resolution here. Perhaps by the end of the year, when I upgrade the old TV in the bedroom to a Plasma, Dish will have it's act together with this box and I'll get one then as a secondary unit. But for the main TV in the here and now, a TiVo HD is on it's way to my door.

Just followed up on Chat:

"(24DrDepT) Melinda F. K90: Since this is a post receipt exchange it requires that you ship the equipment to us at your cost. Upon receipt of your equipment, you will be shipped a replacement. The account notes indicate reimbursement of shipping fees. Have you shipped the unit to us?
XXXXXX: I was told that I should wait till the replacement comes because I 'may' have a shipping label included inside.
(24DrDepT) Melinda F. K90: Let me check on this for you.
XXXXXX: I also found out that most replacment do not come with Manuals or Remotes so I should not include mine inside the box. Is this correct ?
(24DrDepT) Melinda F. K90: Exactly.
(24DrDepT) Melinda F. K90: I am going to send an e-mail to the department that handles the shipments so that we can track this for you. "

---

So, I 've been waiting all this time for nothin ...... !
Now, I would have sent the Remote and Manual if I had not have been tipped off by the Posts above. Nice mess that would have been.
For sure, now, I'm putting that hold on my Credit card bill till I recieve the replacement.

The analog pass-through button works for my toshiba

Thanks for the tip. I tried all of the up and down type of buttons, but the analog pass-through is one button I didn't try. I have a Samsung and I'll report if it works.

I'm still very happy with mine. So far the reboots are tolerable. And I have no other tuner to use that is nearly as good except my Zenith converter and that only gives me low def.

I have several Samsungs and my LG tuners but none can match this and I see nothing else even on the market that would be good.

I wrote about my issues to Dish and got a nice reply saying they know about the problems and are working on new code and to watch for it's release. Actually they said to remember to turn off my unit at night so it will update, but I don't keep it on the internet full time so I will watch for it.

Not sure why anyone is sending boxes back and forth till the code is fixed up.

Not sure why anyone is sending boxes back and forth till the code is fixed up.

I think because there is only that 90 day window of opportunity to exchange the units and that some people have zero issues with their box. It's a tantalizing recipe for sending the unit back while one still can.

I just wish Echostar would get on the stick and release a new version that fixes some of these issues. Or at least be more transparent about what they are doing - like have an official web support forum that they sometimes give feedback: this works well for Roku (http://forums.rokulabs.com/).

Not sure why anyone is sending boxes back and forth till the code is fixed up.

I've got a Picture Alignment problem such that not even some of the MENU's fill my HD TV screen and I'm still having problems getting a replacement. This is not even software problem.

--

Just got off the phone and now they say they are sending me a Return Label in 7 to 10 days. Judging by past experiences posted here, this seems like a 50/50 proposition.

I've got a Picture Alignment problem such that not even some of the MENU's fill my HD TV screen and I'm still having problems getting a replacement. This is not even software problem.

--

Just got off the phone and now they say they are sending me a Return Label in 7 to 10 days. Judging by past experiences posted here, this seems like a 50/50 proposition.

I wouldn't trust this. I was told the same thing last week but when I called back on Monday to check up on it they said that my exchange had been cancelled because the tech did it wrong. They use the return label process when they work with their subscriber equipment. So they entered the exchange again and told me to ship it to them immediately. I argued with several people about me having to pay return shipping but they are too low on the totem pole to do anything about it or care. I think most of the customer service people are seriously untrained to deal with these non-subscription DVRs.

....

Lots of info there. You say two Cincinnati PBS stations and one Dayton station so I assume we both claim Ch 14:). I get a week's data for 16 almost nothing for 14 and about a day for 48. I don't have the equipment you have but I never detected any differance between what the DVR shows in its listing and what the TV shows in its listing.

Good to know you don't get much for NBC and FOX. I get about 2-3 days max for ch 2 (NBC) and about a day for Fox.

I consider it most unfortunate that I came to that same conclusion over the weekend. The high risk of receiving a unit with rampant reboots and lockups was bad enough, but the nightmare people are going through to get service or replacements from Dish is over the top. It was certainly enough to dissuade this potential buyer. Even if Dish were to fix the problems tomorrow, I would want to see at least 3 months of good reports before I would feel comfortable buying. And even then I would probably hold out for B&M availability to facilitate a return just in case. I'd probably be waiting until August.

Like everyone else, I was hoping for a cheap solution for my need to time-shift in HD. The sub-$300 price tag was tantilizing and got me to hold off purchasing an alternative for 6 months (I bought my plasma in July). I just don't see a timely resolution here. Perhaps by the end of the year, when I upgrade the old TV in the bedroom to a Plasma, Dish will have it's act together with this box and I'll get one then as a secondary unit. But for the main TV in the here and now, a TiVo HD is on it's way to my door.

Me too. I would love one of these.

As you say, "Life's too short ..."

I'm wondering, if all those who have any problems would send emails to tech support as well as sales and marketing departments at Echostar, would they perhaps wake up, and realize what they're losing?

Certainly a deluge of emails must have some effect...:eek:

Don't know if this means anything but since I stopped deleting programs before viewing them to completion I have not had a reboot.

One of the things they said on their trouble site was to do a reset after deleting a program. Not very practical but sort of hints there may be a problem in their file system.

The manual may be a bit confusing but as they say there are two issues.

Basically you can use the DTVPal DVR (or DTVPal) to convert special data sent with the digital TVGOS data to a form that your existing analog TVGOS enabled device to keep functioning or you can display a programming guide with the DTVPal DVR but not both. Someone said that the program descriptions that they get with the DVR are different than the program descriptions that they get on their TV using PSIP. The only differance I see is that the CBS station and one PBS station has a full week of data but the descriptions are the same.

At this point all we know is that digital TVGOS is not fully functional and the data for the conversion feature is nonexistant.

No one has figured why you would want to use the TVGOS passthrough with a DTVPal DVR, it appears to be a hold over from the DTVPal.

I admit sometimes I'm a little slow, but now I finally get it. :) I get it now that the TVGos service I'm concerned about won't be activated until February 17th, and that the existing version of this service is only working in analog on other devices. What the manual refers to is the TVGos pass through.. Surprisingly I totally missed that section after breezing through the manual several times. LOL Well anyway, hopefully the digital version of this service does activate in my area so I can get the full 7 day guide.. Our local PSIP data is spotty and not very good at that. I hate it when our local CW channel shows a vague listing of Movie with no description. Hopefully TVGos will improve on this. I was under the impression that the analog TVGos worked just about everywhere and that the digital version was working in most areas..

Me too. I would love one of these.

As you say, "Life's too short ..."

I'm wondering, if all those who have any problems would send emails to tech support as well as sales and marketing departments at Echostar, would they perhaps wake up, and realize what they're losing?

Certainly a deluge of emails must have some effect...:eek:

Several people have sent them pointers to this thread. Does not say anyone bothered to read it but if they did it should have an impact if there is anyone who cares at all.

After today's trials I finally decided to go ahead an put a "Hold' on my Visa Card payment, something I recall doing years ago. Unfortunately, they don't do that anymore.

I can only file a 'Disbute' that will allow me to not pay the Card Issuer till they look into the matter - whatever that means. I'll get a form to fill out. I wonder which will show up first - my 'Label' or my 'Disbute' form. Who wants to bet ?

If this 'Label' shows I'll cancel the Disbute.

This is a lot of trouble for something I had plugged in for all of 2 days.

I was unsuccessful at stopping the constant sound dropouts on channel 7 (digital channel 38). They are at times every 15.5 seconds though they typically happen every 31 seconds.

The interesting (and discouraging) thing is the only digital tuners giving me the problem are the Echostar ones (DTVPal and DTVPal DVR). My LG TV and my Phillips DVR have no problems with that channel.

I am hoping it is something in the local transmission that will eventually go away or an eventual firmware update down the road will make it work.

Based on what I have been reading, I guess I feel lucky that this is my only true problem with this unit.

I received my DVR on 23 December. It started with the lock up problems almost immediately (recording, watching recordings or just watching) - it registered about 30 reboots. (The other night it rebooted 6 times in half an hour!) I was on the telephone to Dish on 28 December and they told me they would ship a replacement unit with return shipping labels and I would have it in two days. Fast forward a month. After 8 calls through January and numerous promises of new units and shipping labels I finally got someone today - 28 January (in Denver as opposed to Manila) who emailed me the UPS return shipping labels. (Perhaps it takes a month for them to finally respond or nearly a dozen calls.) I will return the unit tomorrow (she said to keep the cables, manual and remote controller). We will see if the replacement unit comes and if it works. In the meantime I have put the charges on hold with the credit card company.
Good luck to everyone else.

I've had mine for approximately 1 week and so far have only had one reboot. The one reboot I did have it notified me that it was going to reboot which kind of surprised me. I was under the impression that they always happen without warning at all. Here's my Software and bootstrap info..

Software version F202TALD-N
Boot Strap version 1011TALD

I don't know if this means anything to anyone, I've seen other posts with this info, so I thought I'd put mine out there since I seem to have a good functioning unit.

How do I get the DTVPal DVR working with my Logitech Harmony remote?

Search the Harmony software for the Dish Network ViP622. That uses the same IR codes as the DTVPal DVR.
--------------------------------


It should be Vip722.

When I added my DTVPal DVR to my 550, the DTVPal DVR was already listed there. However, there were menu choices like PiP etc. that have no application to the DTVPal DVR, so I deleted them.

How do I get the DTVPal DVR working with my Logitech Harmony remote?

Search the Harmony software for the Dish Network ViP622. That uses the same IR codes as the DTVPal DVR.
--------------------------------


It should be Vip722.

Just entering DTVPal DVR works too.. I did that ahead of my DVR's arrival and it worked like a charm. :)

Has anyone who's purchased this product not had any problems? Based on this thread it's completly defective.

Has anyone who's purchased this product not had any problems? Based on this thread it's completly defective.

Aside from 1 reboot with a very brief warning, not a single problem. :)

There are several people in the thread that's had no problems. Then there are people who have weekly problems (me), and people who have hourly problems.

There are several people in the thread that's had no problems. Then there are people who have weekly problems (me), and people who have hourly problems.

This is why I said before that we need to find any identifiable information on our DVR units and post it. This could narrow down specific batches of the product or even a time of build. Sometimes manufacturers change things on the fly in order to shake out the bugs and make their building process as efficient as possible. Units built in September are more likely to have problems than units in December as the manufacturing process evolves to shake any known issues out. Sometimes things change for the better, other times for the worse. Those of us that are actually having problems should not only be writing Echostar, but should also be posting every bit of information on the back of their DVR and the software information to them as well.

Has anyone who's purchased this product not had any problems? Based on this thread it's completly defective.

I've only had 2 reboots and one lock up and that was in the first week. I haven't had a single glitch since then (Dec. 24) . Works like a charm, 7 day TVGOS and everything. I'm in love with the thing. i don't have time to watch all the things i have recorded and there is still 15 hrs of HD left on the HD. I'm sure there are many others like me:)

Has anyone who's purchased this product not had any problems? Based on this thread it's completly defective.

No problems. Love it!:cool:

I was unsuccessful at stopping the constant sound dropouts on channel 7 (digital channel 38). They are at times every 15.5 seconds though they typically happen every 31 seconds.

The interesting (and discouraging) thing is the only digital tuners giving me the problem are the Echostar ones (DTVPal and DTVPal DVR). My LG TV and my Phillips DVR have no problems with that channel.

I am hoping it is something in the local transmission that will eventually go away or an eventual firmware update down the road will make it work.

Based on what I have been reading, I guess I feel lucky that this is my only true problem with this unit.I'm having exactly the same problem - audio dropouts on one channel only. Possible work-around if your channel is DD 5.1 is to set the PAL for PCM. Not desirable, but maybe workable if you only record a minimum on that channel. Can't swear it works, but seems to be an improvement so far here. I can see the slightest glitches through the set's tuner, but they're larger through the PAL, and once it loses the audio the "recovery period" is several seconds. I've got a lot of variables to play with, and this seems to be the only one that offers any improvement. Whether it's worth it, not sure yet. There may be a TiVo in my future.