After excessive analyzing and obsessing, I picked up my new Panny 50PX80U today.

Back-History:
1. Based upon visual impressions from viewing at BB, researching here on the forums, concerns about input lag, and finally the unappealing TOC, I ruled out the Samsungs in my quest for a 50" plasma. I had narrowed it down to the 85U, as the 800U was a bit too pricey for me.
2. I ruled out online purchase, as I just didn't want to deal w/ the possibility of return shipping and poor cust service. So, that left the B&Ms.
3. Unfortunately, price decreases that we're seeing in the LCDs were not showing up in the Plasmas at this size and res.

So, once ready to pull the trigger on the 85U, I cannot find it in stock anywhere around me and the cheapest I'm seeing is $1599. During the same search, I see that the PX80U is on sale for $899. That throws me a curve that I had to consider.

In the store, I can obviously see the difference in picture between the 720s and 1080s. However, I had to consider that my seating distance and my wallet, so decided to take it home to see.

Comments/Concerns:

1. Picture on the PX is very nice w/ no calibration. Sound is much better than the 450 Sammy that was nearby in store.
2. At seating distance of 12-15 feet, definitely no SDE.
3. To all the family that are participating, image looks wonderful.
4. Unfortunately, I have a bit more trained eye. Picture does look wonderful. However, even at that distance, it's obviously not 1080P. HD channels do look stunning, but they also look 'SOFT'. Once I explained it to the better half, she understood what I am talking about. The lower resolution simply shows a bit less detail that we would get from 1080P...hence, the soft description....kind of similar to air-brushed photos that look hot, but just aren't realistic.

Quandary:
1. If want to upgrade to PZ80U, will be an additional $500. Will be additional $700 to get the additional contrast and PC input of the PZ85U.
2. That's a pricey upgrade just for that extra sharpness, money that could be used elsewhere.
3. Concerned that am going to want to upgrade to 1080P within a couple years.
4. Other side of the coin is that I get the impression from here and other sources that there are significant advances in TVs on the close horizon. If so, perhaps it's better to save the $500+ clams in expectation of that eventual upgrade.

I'm not sure what exactly I'm looking for here in terms of feedback....perhaps to hear from people that ran into the same 720P/1080P quandary, which way they went, and if they're satisfied w/ their choices.

Thanks in advance.

i would turn off your inner critic voice,
and enjoy the dang thing.

you own it, you bought it and hung it.

in a few years, a family member will want one, and you can sell this one, and jump on the newest technology.

keep that money in your pocket in this economy.

i found the PZ50 cheaper than you did at a local big box store, so i got the 1080p :)

Yah....This started out w/ an add for the 50PZ85U for $1299. I went there as soon as I could, but they were out and they have limited sites in the state, all of which were out of stock. From that point on, no B&Ms in the area had any in stock. It's almost like fate stepped in to save me some coin. :rolleyes:

Before you start blaming the TV for being "soft," consider the source material. For a true test, you should be using a reference-quality Blu-ray disc. Failing that, try viewing the HD PBS channel with some material that you know is HD. All channels compress the signal to some extent (PBS less so, I believe), resulting in a less than stellar picture.

Also, if you have an antenna, over-the-air HD is usually better than satellite or cable HD.

Finally, I doubt even Chuck Yeager could tell the difference between a 50" 768p and 1080p set, with identical source material, at a distance of over 12 feet.

TurboDog--

Your "quandary" point #4 says it all IMHO.

When I picked up my 50PX80 on Labor day for less than 9 Franklins, it was such a good price that there was no need for stressing & obsessing about whether there is something that's a hair better (even if that hair is noticeable).

So for 1/5 the price of my previous Panny plasma (a 42" EDTV that still has a kick-ass picture), I upgraded to 720p and 50". No need to look back, cuz we've all been enjoying the extra size and PQ for several months.

I can enjoy this panel for a couple of years, pocket the $$ savings, and just wait for the next great breakthru technology to come along and drop in price. :D

Relax, and enjoy the 50PX80 and the extra $$$ in your pocket that can be used for the next upgrade. :)

BTW...regarding the 'softness' and 'un-realistic' comments.....my panel need to get at least 50 hours on it before it settled down and gave me a 'natural' picture. I thought people's faces were loaded with excessive makeup....that appearance literally faded away between 50-100 hours of usage.

My 75u also had a soft, clay look to faces during the first hundred and some hours. But after that it really settles down to next to perfect. Give it some more time.

I just purchased the same set last week.

It has about 30 hours on it and has already settled into much more realistic skin tones since it was first turned on out of the box.(had a slight red tint at first)

My viewing distance is about 10 ft. and my set is razor sharp on any h.d. source. Unless you are running a blu-ray as a source, you should not be able to notice much difference in p.q. at all on a 50" or smaller set at your viewing distance between a 720/1080 set.

On some of the better 1080p sets, you may get a slightly better p.q. because of a better scaler and or noise reduction circuitry not included in the lower model sets.But for the extra $ I don't think it is enough of an improvement.

Enjoy your set, you made a wise choice.

This is very good set, personally i think to pay $600 extra for a bit of extra improvement is not worth it, there is so much hype of 1080p people don't look at 720P sets, my blu ray looks better on px80u than my 46 inch 1080p display. Even if i zoom the movie it looks great. There are not that many picture controls but the settings are good enough for me, after going through PX80 thread i know what setting i would do after break in period.

This set is bargain at this price, just think last year 50 inch 720P plasma was around 2K now it is less than 1K, $600 will get new TV a year from now. Enjoy your set. Get a better BD player and let it do the processing.

Chris - I definitely appreciate what you are saying. I do not have a Blue-ray player, so I have to do what I can with what I have. I will tell you that my assessments are purely based upon the better quality HD channels on Comcast, such as discovery, HBO, Food Network (yes, u can laugh), 'Crossroads' concert footage, etc. I am fully aware that much of the 'HD' material is not that or is poor quality. Thus, I do not utilize it when making these judgements.

Subsequent Posters - Thank you very much for your responses. I am very happy to hear that the TV is probably going to 'settle in' with some time. In addition to the 'softness', I was starting to get concerned about some of the skin tones with various programs/sources.

After posting this thread, I saw the PX80 thread and read a little bit. Now that I am leaning towards sticking with my decision, I need to start reading up with 'breaking in' and looking at some of the suggested settings.

Thank you all for your responses. I have been on these boards for a very long time and it is always comforting to know that there are helpful A/V geeks like me to provide feedback or even simply lend support.

TD, i talked to a guy at Best Buy, and old Codger, and he said a regular DVD player or even an "upconverting" DVD player was a waste of time

someone can correct me: a regular DVD puts out 480i, and a Blu Ray will output 480p off a regular DVD. this old guy said the Blu Ray made regulard DVD's look GREAT on his 52.

so, i would get thru Christmas, and then start scouring the classifieds and Craigslist for an old Blu Ray player, since some folks will prolly get newer players for Christmas.

i too, was frantic about this mystical "break in period"
another poster said this is the ONLY forum on the internet that discusses, recommends, or hyperventilates about "break in period"

i intend to keep all my setting below 50 for the first week (just to be sure)
and then adjust it to my liking after that.

it's just a peice of gear, it will do what it does. and life will go on.

..i talked to a guy at Best Buy, and old Codger, and he said a regular DVD player or even an "upconverting" DVD player was a waste of time

someone can correct me: a regular DVD puts out 480i, and a Blu Ray will output 480p off a regular DVD. this old guy said the Blu Ray made regulard DVD's look GREAT on his 52.


Uh, OK....I'll correct you (and the old codger, too).:rolleyes:

Most DVD players sold today, and for the past few years, have the ability to output 480p....so a bluray player doing that is absolutely NO DIFFERENT. "regular DVD's" look great on a bluray player because it IS "upconverting".

Search the forum....there are quite a few cheap upconverting DVD players that do an excellent job. They should not be ignored if you don't want to spend the $$$ to get a blueray player or have a significnat investment in SD ("regular") DVD's.

Also, the scaler in the PX80 is fantastic. Some folks have reported that 480i output (from 'regular' DVD players) look fantastic. Granted, they will not be as sharp and stunning as bluray disks, but they will look great.

The PX80 scalers are excellent for non-HD sources.

good data, correction is education.

dang, so my ~1999 vintage Panasonic DVD player will not be a good source?
i reckon the old codger prolly had a very old DVD player too, maybe that was his basis for comparison.
YMMV when taking one person's experience as stone truth


the other DVD player i have is a Panasonic Combo VHS/DVD recorder. I am leery of the quality of that unit, since it was probably made to be as cheap as possible. it's prolly 2 years old.

i got my Blu Ray for $100 off, package deal with the TV.

Hi! So I set up this TV last night, expecting a 'wow' kind of picture - and I didn't get that. My daughter's Bravia 32" looks so much better (so far). After reading this thread, I see that the TV needs to be broken in, so I guess I will give it some time :) Right now, the only thing I have hooked up to it is the HD cable box, via HDMI cable, and will probably to the Home Theater that I just bought (Panasonic PT960) tonight or tomorrow.
Quick question - what are your cable box settings on? I have a choice between 420, 720p or 1080i - which one do I chose? Does it matter? And how come if I zoom on a non-hd channel, I get the whole screen filled, but if I zoom on some (or most) of the hd channels, I don't?
Sorry if my questions are dumb, but I really don't know much about TVs (even though I do know more than my husband does:)) Thanks, and I'll go read the PX80 thread.

TurboDog1, I was faced with the same problem when I was buying my daughter a 50" Panny for her livingroom & I went with the PX80 & my thinking was that in 2009 Panny will have a brand new "Break-Through" panel out so I decided not to spend a lot of money on a tv this year & next year she can sell the PX80 & then I'll get her the new 2009 Panny Neo Panel.

It was also easier for me to decide because her PX80 is in the livingroom & is really only used for casual viewing when friends & people are over & she usually watches her bedroom 1080p tv which is a Panny 42" PZ700 which she has her Panny Blu-Ray DVD player & her Panny DVD/VCR Recorder hooked up to.

She has also told me that over the past month or so that the picture seems to have gotten better on the PX80 so I would hang in with it until it's broken in & for God's Sake Get A Blu-Ray Player, Just Kidding, but you will be able to see exactly what kind of a picture the PX80 can display & as far as I'm concerned the PX80 is a steal at what it's going for.

My daughter tells me all her male friends think that her PX80 has a fantastic picture when it's showing a Blu-Ray movie or playing a PlayStation3 game & some of them have even mentioned to other guy's that it must be a 1080p tv.

And stop driving yourself crazy because I think you made the right choice & to me the PZ80 is still not worth the extra money & I also think the PZ85 is over-priced too & if I was going to step up it would be to a PZ800 or PZ850 model but for the price that they are going for wait till next year & get the new Panny Neo PDP & put the PX80 in the bedroom, familyroom or sell it.

I returned the 720p model for the 1080p model. The picture looked soft to me as well, so no you are not crazy. Not sure where you are looking but you can find the 50pz80u for $1288 shipped.

Hi! So I set up this TV last night, expecting a 'wow' kind of picture - and I didn't get that. My daughter's Bravia 32" looks so much better (so far). After reading this thread, I see that the TV needs to be broken in, so I guess I will give it some time :) Right now, the only thing I have hooked up to it is the HD cable box, via HDMI cable, and will probably to the Home Theater that I just bought (Panasonic PT960) tonight or tomorrow.
Quick question - what are your cable box settings on? I have a choice between 420, 720p or 1080i - which one do I chose? Does it matter? And how come if I zoom on a non-hd channel, I get the whole screen filled, but if I zoom on some (or most) of the hd channels, I don't?
Sorry if my questions are dumb, but I really don't know much about TVs (even though I do know more than my husband does:)) Thanks, and I'll go read the PX80 thread.

Set the cable box to 1080i and yes, it does matter.

I really don't see how a 720p set could seem "softer" than a 1080p with HD broadcasts....which are all either 720p or 1080i and compressed all to hell. Depending on your seating difference you also might not notice any difference with Blu-ray. Oh..and yes, I have both a 1080p plasma as well as a 720p.

Stin - I resigned myself halfway through that I just didn't want to deal w/ the potential headaches of ordering online. So, it was the B&Ms for me. Luckily, the pricing for the season are helping to narrow that margin between the two. In addition, that would trim the margin down a bit, but it still leaves a $400 variance between the two sets, which is better, but leads to the same questions.

VRed - Most definitely 1080i. When I first put mine on, I hadn't adjusted the cable box resolution from 480i and the picture looked horrible. Changing the output set things right.

As far as the Blue-ray player goes, I'm going to have to just watch the pricing for a little while. This Christmas has been 'toys for Dad' year with the purchase of the PX80U, an 32LG30 (picked up w/ stellar deal w/ free $300 stand and gift card from BB), and a HF100 HD camcorder (picked up for $499 from a B&M - less than online). If I go and buy more, the wife may start to lose her S..t. So, I'll just wait a few weeks. :D

Finally, I doubt even Chuck Yeager could tell the difference between a 50" 768p and 1080p set, with identical source material, at a distance of over 12 feet.You've got that right.

Some people hear that the Eagle Eyes claim to see an improvement, they know it's more money, more money means more better, so they must be missing something and shortchanging themselves.

It's all in their heads. Blank out the bezels, logos, and other cues and they won't be able to tell the difference.

Don't forget that last year's so-called "best display" -- the Pioneer 5080 -- is 720p.

dang, so my ~1999 vintage Panasonic DVD player will not be a good source?
i reckon the old codger prolly had a very old DVD player too, maybe that was his basis for comparison.
YMMV when taking one person's experience as stone truth

The vintage Panny DVD player might be fine (what model BTW, since lots of the older Panny DVD players were exceptional performers). The old codger was spewing 'conventional wisdom'. But, as mentioned in my previous post -- the PX80 has an excellent scaler and will do an excellent job on 480i material.

TurboDog1, Until you get a Blu-Ray player take some nice clear recordings on your HD Camcorder that should also give you an idea of the PX80's picture quality. My daughter is thrilled with her PX80 so that's all that counts to me & she grew up watching Sony XBR sets & Sony Pro Monitors so she does know what a good picture looks like & what to look for.

i set my cable box to output 1080i for HD and 480i for sd. sometimes i switch to 720p for sports. let the scaler do the work for sd, i guarantee you that the TVs scaler is better than the one in your cable box. Just returned my upconverting DVD player, i was getting a better picture out of my old toshiba progressive scan dvd player connected with component than the pioneer with any sort of connection/resolution for the most part. Getting a BD player with Xmas money, probably the panny bd35 and hopefully I'm impressed with that.

Thank you, I set the cable box to 1080i, and I figured out why I wasn't getting a nice picture. It was a duh! moment for me :) When I hooked the cable to the tv via hdmi, I also plugged in the cable antenna, and the TV was receiving the signal through that rather than the HDMI cable. All I had to do was change the input. The picture now is truly great! I have to go cook for tonight, but I can't move away from the TV!

You've got that right.

Some people hear that the Eagle Eyes claim to see an improvement, they know it's more money, more money means more better, so they must be missing something and shortchanging themselves.

It's all in their heads. Blank out the bezels, logos, and other cues and they won't be able to tell the difference.

Don't forget that last year's so-called "best display" -- the Pioneer 5080 -- is 720p.

To be fair, and I owned one for awhile and loved it, it was only the best display according to cnet who didn't test any 1080p pio's or elites.
It was probably the sixth best display of last year behind the five better Pio's.
Quite a display though. :)

You've got that right.

Some people hear that the Eagle Eyes claim to see an improvement, they know it's more money, more money means more better, so they must be missing something and shortchanging themselves.

It's all in their heads. Blank out the bezels, logos, and other cues and they won't be able to tell the difference.

Don't forget that last year's so-called "best display" -- the Pioneer 5080 -- is 720p.

Don't agree. I can tell easily up to 10' and it has nothing to do with money. Text looks much sharper on 1080p and everything has a clearer look to it.

I wanted to circle back and follow up on this thread, especially for those that may be running searches on the PX80.

As others have advised, I have decided to silence the upgrade demon and stick with my decision. I just cannot justify the extra $500 to upgrade to 1080P.

Now that I've had the set for a few days and have been able 'kick the tires', I wanted to add some further impressions:

1. SD material looks surprisingly good on this TV. I have definite concerns that normal SD material would look horrific, especially on a TV this large. I was happy to see that this was not the case. Obviously, it's not perfect. However, it is not as bad as others that I've seen, including my own 32LG30.
2. Source material is everything with this TV, as I assume it is w/ all of these big TVs. Even with HD, it takes the good quality HD material to really make this thing shine.
3. Standard DVD looks pretty good. I'll be curious, once I buy either an upconversion or BD player, whether or not standard discs will look better than this when the TV isn't doing the scaling. I do hope so.
4. Really like the photo viewing function (via SD card). I've only been using it thus far w/ the break in images. However, the ease of use and application of this function is definitely a plus.
5. Solid stand, especially for those with kids. I will be mounting the TV in a couple days, but I installed the base until I receive my wall mount. If I were leaving it on the stand, I wouldn't be concerned w/ my two little ones, as it's very secure. Though a rotating stand might be appealing, the risks that it poses to curious little ones is something to be considered.
6. For now, I will stick by my 'softness' comments. However, I do feel like I am seeing this less and less. Whether or not this is due to the TV starting to 'settle in' or if it's just in my head, who knows. I can only tell you that the clarity concerns are fading away, which in turns solidifies my decision.
7. Size - Even at 15 feet, 50" is ample size. This is not an issue specific to this set, but it's worthy of note. Coming from a projector environment at my old house with a 100" screen, I feared that 50" would be a let down. However, coming from the 32" screen that I've been using for over a year, I can comfortably say that 50" TVs are a good size to meet your personal desire for size, while keeping the 'better half' satisfied that you have not turned her living room into an actual theater.
8. I have noticed something that is a little bit disturbing. During fast complex motion scenes, I see what I can describe as pixelation. Given the movies that I was watching when I observed this (Transformers & Spider-Man 3), I'm wondering if this is related to the CGI.....or perhaps it's related to compression by Comcast. I'm not sure. However, because I see the same thing on my 32LG30 LCD and have observed this in BB on both LCDs and Plasmas, I'm going to assume that this is not an issue related purely to the PX80. I make note of it because it is probably the only complaint that I can make right now about this TV.
9. Finally, some simple observations. Last night, while flipping around w/ a bunch of family that are staying w/ us, I turned on Pirates of the Caribbean for a few minutes. After a few minutes of watching this in the dark, I truly became comfortable in my decision. The picture on this TV with good source material is just outstanding. I have the settings still set to the 'break in' values and the picture still looks amazing. The deep rich colors and pure blacks are almost jaw-dropping. I can pin it down to a particular scene where the red-coats were in formation prior to Will's hanging. I sat and stared at how deep and rich the red in their coats was, all while the blacks in the scene were a deep void of color and light. It was a happy moment of clarity and satisfaction.

I hope that my ramblings help those either now or in the future that are considering whether or not the PX80 is worthy of consideration. In my humble opinion, as a A/V enthusiast, the PX80 is worthy of consideration.

This may be off topic, but hoping someone can help. I have the Panasonic Th50pz80u. Love the set. But in the last 24 hours, there has been a red film or red fuzz that appears for about 15-20 minutes at a shot. Then the screen goes back to normal coloring for 10 min. Then the red returns. This is the first time it has happened. It is happening on DVD (HDMI connected) and PVR (HDMI connected) -- on both recorded and live programming, cable and broadcast.

I did not move any power cords or speakers closer to the set than had been in the previous few months.

Suggestions?

I'm new to the AV forums, so I'll take any suggestions as to a better place to post this if I'm in the wrong place. thank you for your time.

Oily, yep, there is a 50PZ80 thread, you can just cut & paste your above post into it.
this is a pX80 thread, which is the 720p set.
yours is the 1080p

no worries. it's a HUGE alphabet soup to try and figure out, much less keep straight while being on the 'net and upset about your new TV.


TurboDog - source is EVERYTHING. i had my PZ50 on my Dish DVR (it only has S-VHS output)
and i was getting headaches, REALLY unhappy with how fuzzy and nasty it looked.

put an antenna on it last night. WA-BAMMM!!
i saw the Pirates of the C also, and it looked great off the air!!

for DVD's, i got the BD35, and Blu Ray is awesome, but regular DVD's are pretty dang good.

Don't agree. I can tell easily up to 10' and it has nothing to do with money. Text looks much sharper on 1080p and everything has a clearer look to it.Hell, I can't even see the improvement from five feet away.

I guess that having less than Eagle vision has its own peculiar benefits.

I've had this set for over a year now and my wife and I LOVE it. I would buy another in a heartbeat over a new 1080p set. Mine is calibrated and well broken in and I would dare anyone to spot the difference between it and a 1080p set at our standard seating distance.

It looks downright amazing......blu-ray is jaw dropping and there is no lack of detail, color, or shadows IMO. I've looked at a TON of other plasmas and it holds up for sure. Given the price now it's a steal IMO. I hope to buy another for our bedroom at some point and I will always go for 720p vs 1080 if they continue to be $500 more....it's just NOT worth it IMO and I honestly think it's the biggest marketing scam out there.

I too must say this set is an exceptional buy for the money, I was in BB yesterday and watching the Dark Knight on Blu-Ray on a Pioneer and came home and fired up my set with my BD-35 Blu-ray to compare with what I had seen in BB, and I too would dare anyone to tell me the difference at the distance I sit between 720p and 1080p on this set, simply amazing picture!!!! And yes I am a Pioneer man, but for the money you cannot beat this set!!!

Now that I am enjoying the beautiful picture on my new TV, I have a couple questions...
What's the buzzing sound comming from the back of TV? I can only hear it when I get close to the TV, but it still bothers me...

Second question: I have my digital cable box and home theater connected to TV via HDMI cables, and then audio out from TV into the home theater via the optical audio cable. Is this the correct way to go? Or should I ask this in another forum?
Thanks in advance!

So is this the best option under $1k right now? I'm in same boat, will be sitting at 15ft from screen nearly, doing blu-ray in the movie room on my pj anyway.

anyway, are there other good options to compare this too in this price range? I can't justify an extra $500 or more for 1080p sets either.


Panny better than the Vizio's?

8. I have noticed something that is a little bit disturbing. During fast complex motion scenes, I see what I can describe as pixelation. Given the movies that I was watching when I observed this (Transformers & Spider-Man 3), I'm wondering if this is related to the CGI.....or perhaps it's related to compression by Comcast. I'm not sure. However, because I see the same thing on my 32LG30 LCD and have observed this in BB on both LCDs and Plasmas, I'm going to assume that this is not an issue related purely to the PX80. I make note of it because it is probably the only complaint that I can make right now about this TV.

You're right, this is due to compression by Comcast.

So is this the best option under $1k right now? I'm in same boat, will be sitting at 15ft from screen nearly, doing blu-ray in the movie room on my pj anyway.

anyway, are there other good options to compare this too in this price range? I can't justify an extra $500 or more for 1080p sets either.


Panny better than the Vizio's?

From 15 ft there's no way you'll be able to see any difference between 1080p and 720p.

So is this the best option under $1k right now? I'm in same boat, will be sitting at 15ft from screen nearly, doing blu-ray in the movie room on my pj anyway.

anyway, are there other good options to compare this too in this price range? I can't justify an extra $500 or more for 1080p sets either.


Panny better than the Vizio's?

At $899, I could find no equal. The Samsung 450 was a little more cost, had not SD card slot, and above all I found the audio to be inferior to the Panny. The LGs weren't as aggressively priced and I did not see any clear benefit to the unit versus the Panny when I saw it in person. The Vizios were out for me due to the silver band at the bottom, so I didn't pursue it very far. However, I will be honest in that I went into it with the bias that the Vizios are an inferior product...basically just another example of Chinese-made electronics like Insignia, Dynex, etc. When it comes to a TV for my main viewing area, I was looking for a solid brand TV with a reputation for quality and workmanship.

Now that I am enjoying the beautiful picture on my new TV, I have a couple questions...
What's the buzzing sound comming from the back of TV? I can only hear it when I get close to the TV, but it still bothers me...

Second question: I have my digital cable box and home theater connected to TV via HDMI cables, and then audio out from TV into the home theater via the optical audio cable. Is this the correct way to go? Or should I ask this in another forum?
Thanks in advance!
It is the noise coming from the cooling fans. Normally one should not hear it unless the mounting is somewhat loose. But you mentioned that you are able to hear it only when you get close to the TV. You do not normally watch TV by getting close to it do you? My guess is that it is in your head that is bothering you than the actual buzz.

Do not rout the audio thru your TV. Go directly from the cable box (audio out)to your home theater input. take the TV out of the equation as far as audio is concerned. I don't know which cable box you are using, but most of the cable boxes do provide explicit digital audio out either via optical or coaxial connections. Use your TV panel only as a display device. You can mute its aidio or completely turn the volume down to zero.

Enjoy your new TV!

FYI....For those of you in GA and FL, you can get the PX80 for $100 less than I got it from that crazy retailer w/ ads that are directed by someone on speed. :) It has me thinking I should try and return mine. However, I know that my luck will be getting all the way up there and finding that they are out, thus wasting my new years and my hangover recovery time. :)