Hope Fades for PS3 as a Comeback Player [Text View]

confidenceman

12-30-08, 12:42 AM

A summer or fall '09 price cut would be smarter, even better if it could be accompanied by a mild internal revision that cut a few dollars off production costs.Ding! That's exactly it. It sounds like Sony's committed to profitability, so I wouldn't be surprised if they're waiting until they can increase production efficiency and improve/revise the hardware enough to make a $100 price drop remain profitable.

The smarter thing would be to release a PS3 stripped of wireless and HDD. Start selling a wireless adapter, keep the HDD slot for possible upgrades, and include a reasonable chunk of flash memory (~10gigs) for patches, installs, and downloads. Start selling it for $299 in April/May, and drop the higher end skus by $50-100 a piece. Or they may wait until they can release a sku for a feasible mass-market price of $250, but that'd be a ridiculously huge price cut, so I wouldn't count on it.

TonyDP

12-30-08, 07:52 AM

CKYRO1

12-30-08, 08:25 AM

Ding! That's exactly it. It sounds like Sony's committed to profitability, so I wouldn't be surprised if they're waiting until they can increase production efficiency and improve/revise the hardware enough to make a $100 price drop remain profitable.

The smarter thing would be to release a PS3 stripped of wireless and HDD. Start selling a wireless adapter, keep the HDD slot for possible upgrades, and include a reasonable chunk of flash memory (~10gigs) for patches, installs, and downloads. Start selling it for $299 in April/May, and drop the higher end skus by $50-100 a piece. Or they may wait until they can release a sku for a feasible mass-market price of $250, but that'd be a ridiculously huge price cut, so I wouldn't count on it.

doesn't matter what they take out, unless they remove blu ray. that has always been the reason for the high cost of the ps3. that was the exact reason microsoft decided not to include hd dvd in the 360. at this point, i don't belive the public would except a stripped down ps3 for $299 when they can get a 360 for $170 on sale. that's under the assumption that most people still buy consoles for gaming. if indeed you want a blu ray player, they can be had for as cheap as $150 now. i think sony is in a can't win situation for cost and loss.

reefbone

12-30-08, 12:42 PM

WJonathan

12-30-08, 02:41 PM

doesn't matter what they take out, unless they remove blu ray. that has always been the reason for the high cost of the ps3. that was the exact reason microsoft decided not to include hd dvd in the 360. at this point, i don't belive the public would except a stripped down ps3 for $299 when they can get a 360 for $170 on sale. that's under the assumption that most people still buy consoles for gaming. if indeed you want a blu ray player, they can be had for as cheap as $150 now. i think sony is in a can't win situation for cost and loss.

No, Blu ray is just an optical drive with a blue laser. OK, it's slightly more complicated than that, but once Sony has paid off the R&D costs of developing Bluray it's no more expensive to manufacture than DVD or CD drives. The manufacturing cost is in the system's unusual architecture.

cuco33

12-30-08, 03:53 PM

I'll agree with the price drop being needed badly to keep up in terms of pace. But will Sony actually do it? Aren't they still losing money on PS3s sold? The majority of consumers care only for 1 cost. Their own cost. They don't care if Sony subsidizes the system to make back money on the software. So until the price drops the same mentality will continue that's happening now. I personally think the games coming out will push Sony's system... moreso in GT5 than anything they have on the list. FF and Tekken went multiplatform. GT series + a price drop will move hardware FAST like it did during the PSX and PS2 days

Of everyone I know, this season of giving brought 1 360 elite and 2 PS3s to friends/family homes. Which ironically is the opposite of how the sales figures are panning out.

BTW, Sony alone did not develop Bluray. They did throw a good amount in developing it, and the PS3 did have a huge cost to it as well. Nintendo nailed it on the head though. Profit off of hardware and software before relying on business and marketing tactics to get back on the huge ROI.

DaGamePimp

12-30-08, 05:52 PM

Regardless of Sony's profit goals it is simply priced too high and will continue to fall behind in market share until something is done (the general consumer could care less about Sony's profit margin per console) . I know many people that would buy a new PS3 right now if it was under $300 (not counting those Sony card / Sony store deals) .

- Jason

confidenceman

12-30-08, 06:28 PM

I know many people that would buy a new PS3 right now if it was under $300 (not counting those Sony card / Sony store deals) .It's less a matter of "if" than "when." Sony appears to be waiting to bring the price down to the $250-299 range until they can do it profitably (possibly as early as late spring/early summer 2009). It's a risk for the long-term fortunes of the Sony brand, but I'm sure Sony has been taking serious heat from shareholders over the past year. So they're acting conservatively in an unusually volatile market. That might not be the most "forward thinking" move, but like most every other major corporation now, they're much more interested in immediate solvency.

zetram

12-30-08, 10:16 PM

Currently PS3's are selling at a $45 cost, so they are improving.

I believe it was something like +$100 cost at launch.

I don't think Sony would make up enough ground to make a price cut worth it. They might as well ride it out until XBox 720 or PS4 launches.

Otherwise we probably won't see a $300 ps3 unless they can AT LEAST break even.

Which is fine by me, i think the system is definitely worth $400 -$500, though I'm an informed buyer.

...not a gaming genius

Clem272

12-30-08, 11:00 PM

Let me first qualify myself by saying I am indeed a gaming expert with a profound wisdom inherent to a genius of my stature.

With that out of the way I will state on record that all three gaming consoles fulfill a need in the marketplace and all three deliver exactly what they need to.

The Wii fills the general publics need to support and purchase crap.

The 360 fills the always lucrative marketplace need for faulty hardware.

And the PS3 fills the need for the most amazing thing that mankind has ever produced.

PSN ID= SMuJ77

Nice, really liked that one. I like it so much I thought about hyjacking it for my own sig.:rolleyes:

So many of my co-workers all have XBOX 360's, most of whoom own more than one so that while one is away being repared or replaced they have another to play and if that one breaks, YEA they will buy another. Why because it's CHEAP. All of whoom have stated to me the PS3 is far to expensive but would like to have a BD someday. Lets not forget XBOX LIVE, so they tell me. I say with deep respect PSN cost nothing and they smile nicely as they kill me in their minds. ;)

SONY is not worried about MICROSOFT, most of the people who buy Xbox are just loyal to Microsoft and don't like SONY and the price of one PS3 (come on why get one when you need two or three just to play one game). With the failure rate of over 60% of the 1st gereation XBox, why do people still go back is mind-boggling.

Look at it like this I say to any XBOX 360 FAN, one PS3 is $200 for the game console and $200 for the BD Player. Also the PS3 BD player is still ranked #1. Sure there are sub $200 BD players but they are also profile 1.0 and have no firmware updates. Which equals, SOL when you want to watch a new BD.:D

So what are XBOX 360 owners left to do but go and spend another $200-300 on a BD Player or wait and wait and wait for the prices to drop even more sometime next year.

Cysquatch

12-31-08, 12:02 AM

I think the other thread's been pretty civil and responsible so far. Maybe our beloved forum overlord's letting us get it out of our system? :)

as long as the wwII lighters thread is up, I think this thread is safe. ;)

Cynn

12-31-08, 01:34 AM

SONY is not worried about MICROSOFT, most of the people who buy Xbox are just loyal to Microsoft and don't like SONY and the price of one PS3 (come on why get one when you need two or three just to play one game). With the failure rate of over 60% of the 1st gereation XBox, why do people still go back is mind-boggling.

CAT scan time fella.

confidenceman

12-31-08, 04:40 AM

Nice, really liked that one. I like it so much I thought about hyjacking it for my own sig.:rolleyes:

So many of my co-workers all have XBOX 360's, most of whoom own more than one so that while one is away being repared or replaced they have another to play and if that one breaks, YEA they will buy another. Why because it's CHEAP. All of whoom have stated to me the PS3 is far to expensive but would like to have a BD someday. Lets not forget XBOX LIVE, so they tell me. I say with deep respect PSN cost nothing and they smile nicely as they kill me in their minds. ;)

SONY is not worried about MICROSOFT, most of the people who buy Xbox are just loyal to Microsoft and don't like SONY and the price of one PS3 (come on why get one when you need two or three just to play one game). With the failure rate of over 60% of the 1st gereation XBox, why do people still go back is mind-boggling.

Look at it like this I say to any XBOX 360 FAN, one PS3 is $200 for the game console and $200 for the BD Player. Also the PS3 BD player is still ranked #1. Sure there are sub $200 BD players but they are also profile 1.0 and have no firmware updates. Which equals, SOL when you want to watch a new BD.:D

So what are XBOX 360 owners left to do but go and spend another $200-300 on a BD Player or wait and wait and wait for the prices to drop even more sometime next year.Uh... you do realize that our favorite poster-du-jour SMuJ77 was being facetious, don't you?

stupendousman

12-31-08, 07:21 AM

cuco33

12-31-08, 10:50 AM

I think too much emphasis is placed on stats: who's selling the most consoles, who's got the best attach rate, etc. The bottom line is profitability and as long as Sony's Playstation division is making money and selling a reasonable number of consoles, I think they'll continue to stay the course for this generation.

Sony is smart enough to know that you can't be No. 1 in sales while also having the most expensive hardware so they'll continue to position themselves as a luxury item and push their BluRay capability for the forseeable future. I've always felt their mandate for the PS3 was first and foremost to make BluRay the next DVD standard anyway and I think its fair to say they're on their way to accomplishing that with the death of HD-DVD and high-profile BluRay titles selling more and more (The Dark Knight sold something like 1.7 million copies in its first week).

That TDK figure last I checked included sales to rental services, like Blockbuster, as well as packed in worldwide numbers. In other words, it sold well, just not almost 2mil to PEOPLE. But WB did sell almost 2mil copies overall so technically they weren't lieing.

I do agree Sony cared more for Blu than gaming on the PS3. Proof is in the pudding. Which gaming updates are PS3 owners still waiting for? Cuz last I checked, the PS3 fixed it's initial DVD upscaling issue, underwent internal coding of all audio HD formats, went to profile 1.1 and 2.0 all before the gamers got some essential stuff that the competition has. They've started on most but it might sing too little too late on some features (in my book, trophies, proper unified invites, etc).

ballen420

12-31-08, 11:17 AM

cuco33

12-31-08, 11:33 AM

Software helps sell systems. There is really no must-have exclusive for the PS3. LBP, MGS4, Uncharted, MS, and Resistance failed to do so (other then the hardcore). LBP was a complete and utter failure in terms of marketing on Sony's part. Where were the commercials selling this game??? Why do we see these commercials with great presentation, but no emphasis on the games themselves (other then a 2 second burst on someone's shirt).

With a small price cut, and potentially some must-have exclusives coming out this year (God of War 3& Killzone 2), 2009 could be the year PS3 turns it around. Killzone 2 needs to be that killer app, like Halo was for Xbox. I refuse to read into the hype of the game without playing it, but everyone knows it has potential to be it.

Agreed on Sony's marketing towards some games. I mean LBP should have been pushed HARD especially during the holidays. MGS4 wasn't a flop. It sold well and moved systems. Maybe not to the level hoped by Sony but it moved them nonetheless. I think KZ2 has that potential. I know God of War 3 will move units and systems easily. I also think Sony and Polyphony Digital are stupid for not trying to crank out GT5 any sooner. Make additional cars/tracks as downloadable content!! Free and charged like Turn10 did with Forza 2. It'll allow the game to be released sooner and ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLL this extra time spent on car and track modeling will come as they get finished. GT series sells systems. And graphically it's on another level than most racers out there with a brand most know. Sony's lost many major exclusives and the GT series is one that will remain exclusive. But coming out in 2010 (or worse, later) is only pouring salt in the wounds.

SirDrexl

12-31-08, 11:50 AM

I think people are missing a big point.

The PS3 is also a Blu-ray player.

If Sony reduces the price of the PS3, they are essentially setting a price on their market for blu-ray only players as well. Who will pay over $200 for one of their, or their competitor's blu-ray players when you can get a PS3 for just a tiny bit more than a regular blu-ray player? They'll cannibalize a market Sony and other companies do profit from.

That could have been argued when the PS3 was first released. You could (and I did) get the 20GB model for about the same price as a standalone BD player. Even the $600 version wasn't that much more than a standalone at the time. If they didn't have a problem then, I'm not sure why it would be an issue now.

Plus, there is always a segment of people that just won't have a game console as their disc player. There's still a stigma attached to it, and some don't like the looks of it with their other equipment. Also consider that some people aren't even aware that it works as a BD player, and those who are looking for a player will be led to the section of the store with standalones.

Even if the cost is the same, there are also going to be those will will assume that the standalone must be better quality, because they're only paying for the movie player portion and not the gaming portion they won't use. We know it doesn't work that way, but "regular people" may not.

joker305th

12-31-08, 11:59 AM

How to save the PS3:

(1) Price Cut. Not just on the PS3 itself, but also on Blue Ray movies. It's a recession and no one is going to spend $400 on a game machine or $30 for a high def movie, especially when the alternatives are half that price. Yes, you and I know the technical strengths and weaknesses, but the average Joe Six Pack shopping at Walmart doesn't. He's going to look at the price tag and go with that.

(2) Add the Blue Tooth headset and the Eyetoy with every system. One of the reasons XBox Live took off this generation was that every 360 had a headset with it. Now trump that with video chat, add your face to any game a la Rainbow 6 Vegas, and a competitor to the Wii-mote with the EyeToy.

(3) $24.95 a month for all-you-can eat at the Sony movie store. Include all the PS1 games you want for your PS3 and PSP. Now you have a competitor for XBox live and a reason to actually own a PSP.

jpniner

12-31-08, 12:03 PM

the thing to worry about with the next generation is the Wii coming out and including Blu-Ray and a hard drive along with updated Wii type features.

the Wii is in an unique situation, and have created brand loyality along a large and diverse market segment. Take the Wii to the next step and make it HD, better sports interaction games, etc. It has the potential to become the Home Computing system of choice, if they don't screw it up.

Think about it, the Wii cost more than the Xbox bundle with two games and are flying off the shelves. Many of its consumers are non-gamers, and the thing doesn't even play SD-DVD's

Clem272

12-31-08, 02:52 PM

CAT scan time fella.

Uh... you do realize that our favorite poster-du-jour SMuJ77 was being facetious, don't you?

Yea I do, and you all seem to miss the point of my sarcasm as well. I was making a silly point that Microsoft had and still has a huge failure rate. People I work with (late 30's to 40's) who own an Xbox 360 have two or three units due to the red ring of death and they have all said to me the PS3 cost to much. I also work with a lot of 40-50 year olds that own a PS3 and have never played a single game. They bough it for the BD player because it is a better BD player than the sub $200-$300 BD player. It's not all about gaming, and I still don't understand why people buy a product that has a huge problem with reliability.

Sony isn't stupid, there making out big time with winning the format war, thanks to the PS3. Funny how Toshiba helped in the design on the PS3.

Unless your a Customs broker or Customs Inspector you have not seen the true declared value of a finished, ready for the store shelves product. Does not matter what a store paid Sony for the item. Really how much do you think electronics cost to make. You probably don't know that just about all the TV's, DVD players, etc.... are made in Mexico, in factories owned and operated by all the big names in electronics you can list. They are called Maquiladoras. Sony is one of the biggest in Mesa De Otay which is next to Tijuana. They can put made in XYZ because it was manufactured in a Maquiladora, it will not say made in Mexico.

I doubt I'm the one in need of a CAT scan.

confidenceman

12-31-08, 02:58 PM

I do agree Sony cared more for Blu than gaming on the PS3. Proof is in the pudding. Which gaming updates are PS3 owners still waiting for? Cuz last I checked, the PS3 fixed it's initial DVD upscaling issue, underwent internal coding of all audio HD formats, went to profile 1.1 and 2.0 all before the gamers got some essential stuff that the competition has. They've started on most but it might sing too little too late on some features (in my book, trophies, proper unified invites, etc).There's a lot of reasons for this, but the most obvious explanation is that the gaming-related things had to be developed by the gaming division themselves (not by the Blu-ray folks), and more importantly they had to avoid infringing on the many copyrights that MS had firmly established in terms of its online features (achievements, invites, friends, and so on). Not only was Sony "learning the ropes" of using these community features, but they had to do it all without stepping on MS's legally protected toes.

Take trophies, for example. It wasn't just a matter of changing the name "achievements" to "trophies"; they had to develop a system similar enough to make it easy for developers, different enough to make it seem unique, familiar and appealing to gamers, and so on--all while keeping a careful eye to the copyrights MS has in place. That's not easy.

The "in-game XMB" feature faced similar legal hurdles. It's not just a matter of creating, developing, and implementing the feature.

Because MS pioneered community features in console gaming, they also established many legal claims to proprietorship. It's the console equivalent of putting a flag on the moon. Being first in these areas helped MS enormously in the legal realm.

Agreed on Sony's marketing towards some games. I mean LBP should have been pushed HARD especially during the holidays. MGS4 wasn't a flop. It sold well and moved systems. Maybe not to the level hoped by Sony but it moved them nonetheless.I've said this before, but the problem isn't games. There are plenty of IPs that "define" the PS3 in the public consciousness (Uncharted, LBP, MGS, R&C). The reason MGS4 "sold systems" is because it was preceeded by a price drop. Gears 2 and Fable 2 didn't sell 360s; the $199 holiday season price-point did. All those games do is give those price drops greater oomph.

Looking at the sales spikes, you could say that console price drops actually sell games rather than the other way around (but this is a bit of a chicken-and-egg claim). Better than any advertising campaign, the one thing that would have sold LBP is a PS3 price drop at the beginning of October.

If Sony could drop the PS3 price just before the KZ2 release, they'd definitely have a major hit on their hands. Without the price drop, I'm doubtful.

Jdurg

12-31-08, 04:12 PM

Another exclusive for PS3 that can help sell systems in MLB The Show. For any baseball fan out there, it is THE game to get. So for sports people who are looking for sports games, if they want baseball they MUST get a PS3. MS' baseball games are utterly bad and if you get a PS3 for The Show, you can still play Madden and NHL, etc. You still have access to all the great sports games. With a 360, baseball is out of the question. While that may not seem like much of anything, for many people it is huge.

I won't be surprised to see GT5 come out during the holiday season next year along with a price-cut. That would be a great marketing move and would sell a BOATLOAD of systems.

mboojigga

12-31-08, 04:19 PM

Robocop2

12-31-08, 04:21 PM

as long as the wwII lighters thread is up, I think this thread is safe. ;)

That thread is full of wonder and win

Jdurg

12-31-08, 04:26 PM

Are you serious?

Yes. Quite serious. Myself and 90% of the people I hang out with are HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE baseball fans and have bought a PS3 because of "The Show". Many of us were big PC baseball gamers and adored the High Heat series of games due to how realistic and customizeable it was. Once that company went under, there was no baseball game out there that even came close. When The Show came out, combined with the Blu-Ray capabilities of the PS3, it became a no-brainer what system to buy.

Also, ESPN.com is highly supportive of the game and has a detailed preview out of next year's version. That's plenty of publicity right there. Not everybody is a first-person shooter/online junkie. :D

urbansniper

12-31-08, 04:53 PM

Yea I do, and you all seem to miss the point of my sarcasm as well. I was making a silly point that Microsoft had and still has a huge failure rate. People I work with (late 30's to 40's) who own an Xbox 360 have two or three units due to the red ring of death and they have all said to me the PS3 cost to much. I also work with a lot of 40-50 year olds that own a PS3 and have never played a single game. They bough it for the BD player because it is a better BD player than the sub $200-$300 BD player. It's not all about gaming, and I still don't understand why people buy a product that has a huge problem with reliability.

Sony isn't stupid, there making out big time with winning the format war, thanks to the PS3. Funny how Toshiba helped in the design on the PS3.

Unless your a Customs broker or Customs Inspector you have not seen the true declared value of a finished, ready for the store shelves product. Does not matter what a store paid Sony for the item. Really how much do you think electronics cost to make. You probably don't know that just about all the TV's, DVD players, etc.... are made in Mexico, in factories owned and operated by all the big names in electronics you can list. They are called Maquiladoras. Sony is one of the biggest in Mesa De Otay which is next to Tijuana. They can put made in XYZ because it was manufactured in a Maquiladora, it will not say made in Mexico.

I doubt I'm the one in need of a CAT scan.

just my 2 cents...

People buy products with reliability problems all the time. why? because sometimes the purpose/performance/prestige of the product is superior to it's competition.

looking at the sales numbers...so far it is about the gaming (for the general public).
http://nexgenwars.com/

the wii is kicking ass because it's a gaming system that entertains a wide audience (targeting the younger crowd was a winner). even with it's faults...the 360 is my first choice in gaming system because it has the most highly ranked games.

yes, sony won the fight against hd dvd...but that is like bragging about beating up your little brother. there is a much bigger battle ahead.

for 2009, i would not bet on blu ray being the factor that boosts ps3 system sales past the 360.

FKBrx8

12-31-08, 07:21 PM

My money is on SONY!!!! They have something up.

pennhunter

01-01-09, 03:45 AM

My money is on SONY!!!! They have something up.

Tell that to the 8000 people they just laid off.

I don't think the PS3 is going anywhere, but until there is a price cut and some hype about it in mainstream society, it will remain lackluster.

Martez

01-01-09, 04:00 AM

Tell that to the 8000 people they just laid off.

Times are tough. Microsoft is about to lay off 15,000.

tomfoolery_79

01-01-09, 09:24 AM

Hey guys, check this out. Pretty interesting figures regarding the consoles:

http://www.gamecyte.com/nielsen-ratings-show-wow-ps2-still-on-top-us-gamers-play-more-original-xbox-than-ps3

Cynn

01-01-09, 12:55 PM

Times are tough. Microsoft is about to lay off 15,000.

It would be the first layoff ever... In 33 years... And boy would it suck! That's a massive number, especially when it's the first one. It's still a rumor at the moment but we'll know very soon if it's true.

I doubt I'm the one in need of a CAT scan.

My quip might actually be in error. You wrote that the 1st Gen Xbox had a 60% fail rate and that's absolutely crazy...

In your replies though you make it sound like you mean the 1st Gen Xbox 360 as in "launch" 360 units. That I would have said nothing about. If that is what you meant then I apologize. I thought you meant the Xbox Classic.

pennhunter

01-01-09, 02:38 PM

Times are tough. Microsoft is about to lay off 15,000.

Might be true, but MS has nothing to do with my post. The funny thing is MS and Sony are partners in other areas.......i.e. cellular phones.

Martez

01-01-09, 04:22 PM

It would be the first layoff ever... In 33 years... And boy would it suck! That's a massive number, especially when it's the first one. It's still a rumor at the moment but we'll know very soon if it's true.

http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11142&Itemid=38

Might be true, but MS has nothing to do with my post.

No? You seemed to be implying that layoffs indicate that Sony is in trouble, when the reality is many large companies have been doing layoffs and scaling back, including Sony's competitors. How does that not have anything to do with it?

257Tony

01-01-09, 05:11 PM

ss396s

01-01-09, 07:52 PM

Did MS come out with that add on blue ray player? Hmmm

Hughmc

01-01-09, 08:09 PM

While the focus in these links is on BD playback mostly, it is sad we have such a good if not the best CE device to come out in years and some don't believe it or simply don't get it:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/11/25...y-player-list/

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=2138

http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/11/26/...-players-list/

http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/4237.html

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10016208-1.html

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/ins...emastered.html

Even the PSP is a better hand held and has amazing capabilities, but consumers want cheap/fun over what actually maybe better products overall. :(

TyrantII

01-01-09, 08:12 PM

You realize that they didn't pay anything to get their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th console right? And if they did then they aren't too bright. People don't care about the reliability issues when the thing is covered for 3 years.

True, but there's a 5 console limit, and you get refurbs back that have the same inherent flaws. Also, what happens after 3 years?

If I was a Xbox user, I'd be worried about that. It's the reason I won;t own one until it's been confirmed that the self destructing console issue is fixed once and for all.

Martez

01-01-09, 08:17 PM

True, but there's a 5 console limit, and you get refurbs back that have the same inherent flaws. Also, what happens after 3 years?

If I was a Xbox user, I'd be worried about that. It's the reason I won;t own one until it's been confirmed that the self destructing console issue is fixed once and for all.

I'll buy one when it has a quiet disc drive. Everytime I'm at a friend's house, it still kind of surprises me whenever that thing kicks in.

confidenceman

01-01-09, 09:11 PM

If I was a Xbox user, I'd be worried about that. It's the reason I won;t own one until it's been confirmed that the self destructing console issue is fixed once and for all.I'll buy one when it has a quiet disc drive. Everytime I'm at a friend's house, it still kind of surprises me whenever that thing kicks in.After dumping so much money into the massive warranty extension, I don't expect MS will ever fix the fundamental flaws with the system. They've devoted too much money and resources into their replacement/repair plan for it to be worthwhile to put much more money into hardware redesign. RRoD will follow the 360 into the next generation.

The last two hardware revisions were supposed to have greatly reduced RRoD, but they haven't. No reason to believe that future ones will do substantially better. I think we're looking at a difference of 30-40% failure rate to 20-30%. Sure, it's "better," but still far from ideal.

Either you're okay with that, or you're not. I've had my 360 since Feb 2008, and have had to send it in once so far. Most of my friends have had one since long before that and each has had to replace/repair their units at least once. It's worth it for some of the great titles, but it's a bit of a headache.

...and if the fan noise bugs you, just put on some headphones. That's what I do.

257Tony

01-01-09, 10:30 PM

True, but there's a 5 console limit, and you get refurbs back that have the same inherent flaws. Also, what happens after 3 years?

Where did you get that one from? I have personally sent in at least a dozen different consoles in the past couple years, granted never the same one twice though.

And whoever said that the newer revision aren't more reliable needs to do some more research. My best personal guess is the original mobo suffers at least a 50% casualty rate, and the Falcon or newer consoles seem to be much, much more reliable. I'm betting that the next revision (Valhalla) with the unified CPU/GPU should be about as good as it gets as it will get rid of the problem of having the DVD drive right over the GPU heatsink, which imo is the main design flaw.

Martez

01-01-09, 10:40 PM

Where did you get that one from? I have personally sent in at least a dozen different consoles in the past couple years, granted never the same one twice though.

And whoever said that the newer revision aren't more reliable needs to do some more research. My best personal guess is the original mobo suffers at least a 50% casualty rate, and the Falcon or newer consoles seem to be much, much more reliable. I'm betting that the next revision (Valhalla) with the unified CPU/GPU should be about as good as it gets as it will get rid of the problem of having the DVD drive right over the GPU heatsink, which imo is the main design flaw.

Weren't bad x-clamps the cause of the RROD?

Mikazaru

01-01-09, 11:44 PM

I'll buy one when it has a quiet disc drive. Everytime I'm at a friend's house, it still kind of surprises me whenever that thing kicks in.

You can install entire games onto the HDD now.

Martez

01-02-09, 12:19 AM

You can install entire games onto the HDD now.

Awesome :rolleyes:

mboojigga

01-02-09, 01:48 AM

Awesome :rolleyes:

He did give you the right answer to a quiet hardrive for an option to install the games.

Martez

01-02-09, 04:06 AM

He did give you the right answer to a quiet hardrive for an option to install the games.

Yeah, but I'm not paying the ridiculous amount Microsoft is asking for a 120gb HDD just to fill it with disc images of games (and still have to go up to the system and swap discs) because Microsoft doesn't know where to find a decent DVD drive for their console. I think it's a cool idea for multiple-disc games, and in that case it's very forward-thinking of them to do it before there are a ton of multiple-disc titles, but as a bandaid to cover up a inferior hardware, it is weak.

I don't mind installs on the PS3 because Sony lets me bargain hunt for reasonably-priced HDDs. You can get one with 5x the storage for the price of the 360's 120gb. My PS3 has more room than it knows what to do with, they can take up as much as they please. With the 360, my only option for a decently-sized drive is to get raped by Microsoft.

confidenceman

01-02-09, 04:48 AM

Degenerazn

01-02-09, 06:15 AM

You can buy an Xbox 360 Elite for the same price as the cheapest PS3 model and install games if you're worried about fan noise. Seriously though, do you really notice the fan when you're gaming? People who are afraid of the 360's hardware issues, you should realize that you are covered for 3 whole years. And if it does RRoD on you then send it in and you'll get it back in about 10 days, get a free month of XBL as well. You have no idea what you're missing if this is the only reason holding you back from the 360. If you are afraid of CE breaking on you, then don't buy anything at all. Believe it or not, PS3s break as well, and they're not covered for 3 years like the Xbox 360 is.

bassmonkeee

01-02-09, 09:24 AM

Where did you get that one from? I have personally sent in at least a dozen different consoles in the past couple years, granted never the same one twice though.

This thread stopped being anything but stupid a long time ago, but this post made me LOL. Thanks!

Goatse

01-02-09, 09:34 AM

I use my ps3 to pirated stream HD movies, well worth the price even if it didn't have anymore games. Something the 360 can't do.

so's your face

01-02-09, 09:46 AM

I use my ps3 to pirated stream HD movies, well worth the price even if it didn't have anymore games. Something the 360 can't do.

ps3 - $499

pirated movies - free & illegal

confessing to use your ps3 to stream pirated movies on a public forum - priceless

cuco33

01-02-09, 10:02 AM

The HDD installs aren't as cool as you might think. I've got a 20gig model, so I can only ever install one game at a time (since I've got a bunch of XBLA games on there). I'll repeat what I said above, if you're worried about disc drive noise, use headphones. The big drawback, though, is that if you use headphones, you can't use the headset. :o

There are means to get a headphone/headset combo, and even better means to get surround headphones with the ability to talk over the mic. All in one packs or pieced together units like a separate mixamp, mic and headphones.

Optional full game installs to the HDD are great. I have an elite so I don't have your problem. You usually can get more than 1 game on a 20gb (I believe 3 depending on the game). I haven't installed every game, just the ones I play a ton like FIFA09. The fan noise is still a tad noticeable on it over playtime, very much like the PS3's but man not having that DVD spin away all loud is great!

TyrantII

01-02-09, 10:03 AM

Where did you get that one from?

Heard that from word on the street (net). It was for each purchase, so use your receipt 5 times, and then done. YMMV obviously.

And whoever said that the newer revision aren't more reliable needs to do some more research.

My best personal guess

seem to be much, much more reliable.

I'm betting

Ummm, ok...

I'd rather just wait. I've seen MSFT play this game with the prior two revisions, and the fanboys rejoiced, and all was good.

That didn't do crap for those who had their new Xbox's melt.

Anyways, let's get back on topic. :)

Sony obviously decided the lead isn't worth pursuing , so how does this situation help them? hurt them?

cuco33

01-02-09, 10:07 AM

I use my ps3 to pirated stream HD movies, well worth the price even if it didn't have anymore games. Something the 360 can't do.

You might want to do some more research on that one chief ;)

Goatse

01-02-09, 10:07 AM

ps3 - $499

pirated movies - free & illegal

confessing to use your ps3 to stream pirated movies on a public forum - priceless

I drove drunk and high on new years.

You might want to do some more research on that one chief ;)

explain... I've tried. 360 can only stream SD as a media center.

cuco33

01-02-09, 10:15 AM

Yeah, but I'm not paying the ridiculous amount Microsoft is asking for a 120gb HDD just to fill it with disc images of games (and still have to go up to the system and swap discs) because Microsoft doesn't know where to find a decent DVD drive for their console. I think it's a cool idea for multiple-disc games, and in that case it's very forward-thinking of them to do it before there are a ton of multiple-disc titles, but as a bandaid to cover up a inferior hardware, it is weak.

I don't mind installs on the PS3 because Sony lets me bargain hunt for reasonably-priced HDDs. You can get one with 5x the storage for the price of the 360's 120gb. My PS3 has more room than it knows what to do with, they can take up as much as they please. With the 360, my only option for a decently-sized drive is to get raped by Microsoft.

DVD drives aren't the issue for 360 HDD installs. The complaint has always been the disk drive spinning noise. Like on PCs, when spinning at 12x speeds (I believe it's 12x) it's going to be noisy. Problem at hand was resolved with the optional HDD install. Sony's game developers are forcing installs onto the consumer. It's great to be able to easily upgrade the HDD but one shouldn't feel the need that they have to. Imagine 20gb PS3 owners with 3 games requiring an HDD install plus HOME downloaded. They are either forced to upgrade the HDD or deal with deleting game installs and reinstalling them later when they want to play it. It eliminates the whole 'pop in the game and play' motive that home consoles have always had the upper hand over PC gaming. This isn't new news either, some just neglect to know the whole story due to bias. I know you can also USB connect an external HDD to the 360 just as you can the PS3, but for read only purposes. Never looked into whether or not you can do game installs to these drives too but I doubt it. I also think MS is crazy to charge over $100 for their 120gb HDD but for less than that the new 60gb is available, and comes packed with a few extra goodies like 3months LIVE and a headset.

And note, I've never been a fan of mandatory game installs on a game console. PC = ok, Console? no way!

cuco33

01-02-09, 10:18 AM

explain... I've tried. 360 can only stream SD as a media center.

Google is your friend ;)
If you download HD films illegally I'm pretty sure you can use the same means on how to stream it and work on other systems aside from your precious :p

jblank74

01-02-09, 10:22 AM

Interesting article that I found through Digg regarding the cost of producing the PS3 (http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-40745-118.html). Seems that they are finally getting the production costs inline with its retail price but now everyone (here) thinks they need to drop the price. :rolleyes:

That's a real fanboy for ya folks.

It isn't just people here, it is the entire gaming community EVERYWHERE, as well as financial analysts that are saying the PS3 is going to only fall further behind without a price cut.

It's simple Economics reefbone.

Goatse

01-02-09, 10:27 AM

Google is your friend ;)
If you download HD films illegally I'm pretty sure you can use the same means on how to stream it and work on other systems aside from your precious :p

I don't want to add any 3rd party software on to the 360. Besides I'm stuck with a tiny HD in the 360. In the PS3 I have a 500gb hd with huge library of movies. Besides the Ps3 doesn't need any extra software on it to play HD out of the box, making it more superior media center than the 360.

cuco33

01-02-09, 10:34 AM

I don't want to add any 3rd party software on to the 360. Besides I'm stuck with a tiny HD in the 360. In the PS3 I have a 500gb hd with huge library of movies. Besides the Ps3 doesn't need any extra software on it to play HD out of the box, making it more superior media center than the 360.

Again... google... be yo friend

Clearly based on your post you aren't doing it or learning about it more due to bias... Kind of like how one of my buddy's went crazy promoting the PS3 and it's media extender capabilities bashing MS and I pointed out how the 360, out the box, is a better media extender capable of playing more files, out the box... PC software allows PC to console streaming all while transcoding an incompatible file on the fly and makes both systems on par with each other. In your case, the files are already downloaded in the proper compatible format for your PS3 to work. But someone, along the lines, had to make the file compatible in the first place. And like I mentioned... external HDD + pick console + compatible files = same exact thing you have with the bonus of taking the external HDD to another console/machine/PC not binding it down to PS3 only ;):cool:

My buddy now gets it btw. He still only has a PS3 and 2 games (FIFA08 and FIFA09) and uses his PS3 to stream files from his PC that I'm most jealous of. He has the original 40gb HDD, and won't ever upgrade, in his Sony console and multiple large HDDs (mainly internal) on his PC for streaming everything. TVersity alone has made him drool over the console's functionality but now understands I can do the same with both 360 and PS3. I am going to try out a new media center software (home server?) with him as I was told it is far better than TVersity, which is a feat in itself

MrXpress

01-02-09, 10:38 AM

I've been able to have the 360 play HD stuff with no problem, without installing anything anywhere (just using my PC as a file server of sorts via WMP). Not quite as convenient as just plugging an external USB HDD into the PS3 (although to be fair I haven't tried it with the 360), but the 360 seems to have a little more leeway in the DivX/Xvid files it will play so it's more or less a wash.

Goatse

01-02-09, 10:39 AM

Again... google... be yo friend

Clearly based on your post you aren't doing it or learning about it more due to bias... Kind of like how one of my buddy's went crazy promoting the PS3 and it's media extender capabilities bashing MS and I pointed out how the 360, out the box, is a better media extender capable of playing more files, out the box... PC software allows PC to console streaming all while transcoding an incompatible file on the fly and makes both systems on par with each other. In your case, the files are already downloaded in the proper compatible format for your PS3 to work. But someone, along the lines, had to make the file compatible in the first place. And like I mentioned... external HDD + pick console + compatible files = same exact thing you have with the bonus of taking the external HDD to another console/machine/PC not binding it down to PS3 only ;):cool:

right. why take the extra step to put in software on the 360, when ps3 does it out of the box? Besides 360 is used strictly for rockband. Fan noise is really annoying on the 360. Call me a fanboy, I own both and always prefer the ps3.

cuco33

01-02-09, 10:44 AM

right. why take the extra step to put in software on the 360, when ps3 does it out of the box?

Like I mentioned, out the box the 360 is a better media device sans Bluray. It's compatible with more file formats, out the box. The files you have downloaded have already been made to be compatible with the PS3. If you had a film that didn't work on your PS3, but works on PC, what would you do? Convert the file or download the same film in a different format (which was already converted by someone else)? Might not be you but someone is encoding the film into a format they can use.

I had a bigger bias towards the 360 (and before owning it I was on the other side drooling over PS3). But experiencing both systems and their pros and cons I know some things are exactly the same, while others are a bit better on one side over the other.

TyrantII

01-02-09, 11:45 AM

That's a real fanboy for ya folks.

It isn't just people here, it is the entire gaming community EVERYWHERE, as well as financial analysts that are saying the PS3 is going to only fall further behind without a price cut.

It's simple Economics reefbone.

True, but if they're conceding the market share race, and Sony's focus is profitability for the rest of this generation; isn't that also Economics, stupid?

;)

ballen420

01-02-09, 11:49 AM

I drove drunk and high on new years.

Please scan your license and registration please.

Thanks for the laugh man. If we didn't get a snowstorm, I would have been doing the same.

ss396s

01-02-09, 11:53 AM

I think Sony is smarter than some in this thread give them credit for. Personally, I think the Ps3 was what turned the tide on HD DVD. How much is that worth? $$$$$$$$$ I think Sony has something up their sleeve.

pennhunter

01-02-09, 12:05 PM

There is some real misinformation in this thread. Simply looking on the xbox.com forums would reveal there is no limit on the amount of times that MS will repair your console, sadly that isn't something people should have had to deal with in the first place.
Also the new console DVD drives are not loud on the 360, my son's Falcon and my Jasper are nearly silent. But the reason I bought the Jasper console was to replace my Zephyr Elite as my main Media Center console. The Zephyr sounds like a jet taking off.
As an owner of all three consoles, my 360 gets far more use than the PS3 or wii. I think a lot of people on these type of threads grasp at rumors about the "other" consoles to justify their investment.
I also think that winning the format war may be enough to recoup Sony's PS3 investment.

_Avarice_

01-02-09, 12:15 PM

I drove drunk and high on new years.

May you get what's eventually coming to you, sooner rather than later. Happy new year ;)

number1laing

01-02-09, 12:23 PM

257Tony

01-02-09, 12:24 PM

This thread stopped being anything but stupid a long time ago, but this post made me LOL. Thanks!
I buy em broke, haev MS fix them and sell them for a profit. The RRoD has made me quite a bit of spending money over the past couple years.

I use my ps3 to pirated stream HD movies, well worth the price even if it didn't have anymore games. Something the 360 can't do.

explain... I've tried. 360 can only stream SD as a media center.

Since you getting them pirated anyways, why not just DL the WMV-HD version and stream away?

oilstain

01-02-09, 12:29 PM

My understanding is thus:

Sony loses money on each PS3 it sells (pure loss).

Sony makes money on each game it sells for PS3 (after these profits make up for the money lost on the PS3).

Sony makes money on each Blu Ray Disk sold compatible with any Blu Ray player (pure profit).

So, if all these are true, and Sony wants to make as much profit as they can, they would want to sell games and movies, right? They would also not want to sell anything at a loss that they don't need to.

At the current price point, people who want a gaming system, with Blu Ray will buy a PS3. People who want a Blu Ray player, will buy a stand-alone player. Gamers who buy PS3s will subsidize the price of the PS3 by buying games and to some extent Blu Ray disks (less profit). Movie watchers, who buy Sony and Non-Sony Blu Ray players will give Sony money by paying the royalties on Blu Disks (pure profit).

Cutting the price of the PS3 to be compatible with XBox360, will cause buyers who would otherwise buy a Blu Ray player that doesn't cost Sony money to buy the PS3 and get a gaming system that they may or may not eventually subsidize by buying enough games.

At first that situation was desirable, but now that the format war is over, Sony would rather not have to pay to have people use their system.

Now, I do believe they can get closer to the XBox's price without hitting the Blu Ray player market, but they will have to be careful.

Factors I'm missing: $ figures! I can't decide what's profitable for Sony without seeing the numbers. How many gaming titles will it take to push a PS3 into positive numbers? How many Blu Ray titles do gamers tend to buy? How many games do Blu Ray buyers tend to buy?

Somewhere there's a team of people looking at these numbers and saying, No, right now it does not make sense to cut the PS3 price.

I'm spent.

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 12:40 PM

As someone who just took advantage of the sony card deal (ps3 for $250), i must say that the ps3 is a nice piece of hardware. However, most of it's use will be playing BD movies. As a game console, I still much prefer my 360. There are a few games that ps3 has that look interesting, but on a whole i feel the gaming experience on the 360 is much better. What i find amusing is the hypocrisy of sony and their fan base. When the original xbox was released i remember all the discussions of "what a waste it was for a game console to have a hard drive". When Xbox live was released there was all talk of how what a waste the service would be...."people don't want to play each other online, thats what pc's are for, xbox live will flop". With the Wii, it was "nobody wants to use some gimmicky motion controllers". Xbox 360- "a store to download or stream movies and tv shows, thats what tivo and on-demand are for". Funny thing is everytime sony or their people say these things, they later end up in their consoles. if sony stopped trying to dictate, and spent more time innovating (like they did with the ps2), they very well might have the lead right now. But considering where they are, they will never catchup.

mboojigga

01-02-09, 12:47 PM

oilstain

01-02-09, 12:51 PM

Goatse

01-02-09, 12:57 PM

Please scan your license and registration please.

Thanks for the laugh man. If we didn't get a snowstorm, I would have been doing the same.

http://www.stlouisscrewbolt.com/mclovin%20DRIVER%20LICENSE.jpg

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 01:01 PM

Lol, yep, and it was Sony who said "Who needs these newfangled Telewhatsits, I can just walk down the street to go see a Talkie"

Someone ridiculed the first man to make fire, too. The people who ridicule first adopters are either right, or wrong.

Duh.

guess you missed the point, you fool. the point was that instead of sony being innovative with their gaming consoles, they have been critical of the other consoles innovations. only to later try to add them after the fact once the success have been demonstrated. to me, thats why sony is in the position they are now. gamers want innovation. they want xbox live, motion controllers, hard drives, downloadable content. and right now microsoft and nintendo are the companies at the forefront of giving that to them. all sony has offered is blu ray, and i still don't see how that has done anything for gaming.

oilstain

01-02-09, 01:09 PM

guess you missed the point, you fool. the point was that instead of sony being innovative with their gaming consoles, they have been critical of the other consoles innovations. only to later try to add them after the fact once the success have been demonstrated. to me, thats why sony is in the position they are now. gamers want innovation. they want xbox live, motion controllers, hard drives, downloadable content. and right now microsoft and nintendo are the companies at the forefront of giving that to them. all sony has offered is blu ray, and i still don't see how that has done anything for gaming.

I'm pretty new to the PS3 world but, what I missed is the links to where Sony said that evil will always triumph because online capability, accelerometers, infra-red, hard drives, downloadable content, and good, are dumb.

cuco33

01-02-09, 01:09 PM

Sony aren't the only ones in the BDA. People keep forgetting that.

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 01:46 PM

I'm pretty new to the PS3 world but, what I missed is the links to where Sony said that evil will always triumph because online capability, accelerometers, infra-red, hard drives, downloadable content, and good, are dumb.

What link? They were reactions given by sony in response to what the other consoles were including for gamers. I guess you haven't been around gaming for long.

stupendousman

01-02-09, 02:05 PM

Does Sony make a royalty on non-Sony BR disks and drives?

I thought that the BR format was owned by a conglomerate of companies (Sony, Apple, etc.)?

If so, then they do make money on their own BR software and hardware.

oilstain

01-02-09, 02:11 PM

...reactions given by sony...

Okay, I understand what you are saying. Can you understand me? Where did you see these reactions? I'd like to read about this stuff. You had to find out about this somewhere, where? In my past experiences Sony has been quite innovative, and it's always been their marketing that fails.

I've been playing video games since the Atari 2600. However, I don't interact with the online community of "gamers" very often, as it's usually a frustrating and annoying affair of name calling and half-assed arguments.

Half-assed humor, I'm all for.

oilstain

01-02-09, 02:19 PM

Sony aren't the only ones in the BDA. People keep forgetting that.

I wasn't sure what the BDA was, so wikipedia to the rescue. I'm not sure how the profits are broken up:

"The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) is the industry consortium that develops and licenses Blu-ray Disc technology and is responsible for establishing format standards and promoting business opportunities for Blu-ray Disc. The BDA is divided into three levels of membership: the Board of Directors, the Contributors, and the General Members.[1]" - Wikipedia, knower of all things

They license BD, but it doesn't really get into the specifices.

...beats workin...

TyrantII

01-02-09, 02:23 PM

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 02:24 PM

Okay, I understand what you are saying. Can you understand me? Where did you see these reactions? I'd like to read about this stuff. You had to find out about this somewhere, where? In my past experiences Sony has been quite innovative, and it's always been their marketing that fails.

I've been playing video games since the Atari 2600. However, I don't interact with the online community of "gamers" very often, as it's usually a frustrating and annoying affair of name calling and half-assed arguments.

Half-assed humor, I'm all for.

I can't tell you the specific times sony has ridiculed microsoft for the hard drive, xbox live, marketplace, etc., but they have. I'm sure most people who follow the gaming industry know that, and to your credit you mentioned you don't follow. I didn't even mention how sony threw daggers at microsoft when they released more than one version of the 360. Now, how many versions of the ps3 been released (20gb, 40gb, 60gb, 80gb, 160gb), probably more than the 360.

pdiss88

01-02-09, 02:28 PM

Bottom line for me is that the 360's exclusives either suck or do not appeal to my tastes. Therefore, I could care less about how well the PS3 is doing as long as its developers keep rolling out games like MGS4, Resistance 2 or the God of War series that I won't be able to get on another system and I know I'm not missing out on any exclusives elsewhere.

Am I the only one getting tired of another sales figures thread coming out every week saying pretty much the same exact thing?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=785982

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 02:30 PM

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 02:37 PM

http://www.gizmocafe.com/video-games/xbox-360.aspx

slicecom

01-02-09, 02:38 PM

What link? They were reactions given by sony in response to what the other consoles were including for gamers. I guess you haven't been around gaming for long.

I've been around gaming since the early NES days and I don't remember Sony saying any of those. I do remember them making up a BS story about how rumble would interfere with the Sixaxis controller and rumble was "last gen" technology. Good ole Sony, so full of BS.

That said, I still like PS3 more than 360 due mainly to Bluray, freee online play, upgradable HDD, built in Wifi, system noise (this is a big one for me) and durability issues. I also have a lot more friends who have PS3 so it's more fun online (360 is really only more popular than PS3 in the USA it seems).

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 02:44 PM

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6132301.html

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 02:45 PM

I've been around gaming since the early NES days and I don't remember Sony saying any of those. I do remember them making up a BS story about how rumble would interfere with the Sixaxis controller and rumble was "last gen" technology. Good ole Sony, so full of BS.

That said, I still like PS3 more than 360 due mainly to Bluray, freee online play, upgradable HDD, built in Wifi, system noise (this is a big one for me) and durability issues. I also have a lot more friends who have PS3 so it's more fun online (360 is really only more popular than PS3 in the USA it seems).

just read the links

Martez

01-02-09, 02:48 PM

You have no idea what you're missing if this is the only reason holding you back from the 360. If you are afraid of CE breaking on you, then don't buy anything at all. Believe it or not, PS3s break as well, and they're not covered for 3 years like the Xbox 360 is.

No, I'm well aware of what I'm missing, but none of it really compels me. The main games that people stress I need a 360 for are Gears (played the first on PC, didn't like it), Castle Crashers (I hate the Behemoth ever since they got famous for shamelessly copying Metal Slug and getting kudos like they did something super-original), and Braid (no interest). I don't have Netflix and their streaming selection doesn't really impress me, so that's not a draw either. Xbox Live is a more stable platform, but since it's based on P2P you are basically spending $50 a year on a glorified matchmaking service, which I don't really feel like giving MS money for.

Basically, the 360 doesn't fit my needs. And a lot of PS3 exclusives are necessities in my book (Wipeout, SSHD, SOCOM, a surprising number of others). PS3 is just the system for me, and I don't feel like spending the money for another system I really won't have much time for.

As for PS3s breaking and not being covered, I rarely rely on the manufacturer's warranty. My PS3 has a four-year warranty (and it's not limited to one issue like MS's three-year one is) that I got at the time of purchase for around $25.

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 02:51 PM

http://ozymandias.com/sony-sizes-up-xbox-live/

oilstain

01-02-09, 02:53 PM

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E5D81438F933A15756C0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

No generalizations here

Not sure what your point in posting this article is, as it contradicts part of what you said earlier.

"Robert J. Bach, a Microsoft senior vice president in charge of its games division said the company was planning a service that he compared to Disneyland for its safe, wholesome environment -- in contrast to the ''Coney Island'' he said that the open Internet can sometimes become. ''Compare Coney Island to Disneyland,'' he said. ''When you're at Disneyland, there's no trash, no violence and you never see security. That's what we have in mind.''"

There you have a MS person saying that Sony is doing the online thing wrong, not a Sony person saying that MS shouldn't do online.

Then:
''If I were Microsoft, I would spend my money first on selling units rather than building an online service,'' said Kazuo Hirai, the president and chief operating officer of Sony Computer Entertainment America.

There's a Sony guy saying that before the online thing takes off, you need people to buy the system. Obvious, but not nay-saying in any way.

What was the point of posting that article?

The second link was totally irrelevant, except perhaps this:
"The Xbox 360 aspires to be more than a gaming machine but a complete digital media center. This fact has some critics of Xbox 360 and supporters of Sony's gaming platforms citing criticisms that Xbox 360 isn't a "real" games platform. This kind of criticism is heard from games developers based in Japan. The island's games industry and valuable games support is likely to remain an enigma to Microsoft through the release of 360."

That's a bit of a stretch to say the fans of PS2 or the game developers = Sony. Don't ya think?

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 02:54 PM

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/07/sony-criticizes-xbox-360-movie-and-tv-downloads/

let me know when to stop.

TyrantII

01-02-09, 02:59 PM

just read the links

So now editorials are Sonys internal management? I'm surprised it took this long to get a fanboy in here.

I saw one quote:

''If I were Microsoft, I would spend my money first on selling units rather than building an online service,'' said Kazuo Hirai

And the funny thing was he was right at the time; a time when the original Xbox had only sold 3 million units, and console online usage was in it's infancy. It was also in response to MSFT's statement that they'd outsell the PS2.

now you can take that personally, or you can see it for what it is.

So yes, you can stop now untill you have something constructive to add.

oilstain

01-02-09, 02:59 PM

http://ozymandias.com/sony-sizes-up-xbox-live/

This just in, this author doesn't like the PS3. In other painfully obvious news, there's no mention of Sony dissing any of the stuff you said they dissed in the rest of the article either. Just that they are playing catch up and trying to do stuff to make their online thang work mo betta.

You have totally failed at making a decent argument. Boo you.

oilstain

01-02-09, 03:09 PM

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/07/sony-criticizes-xbox-360-movie-and-tv-downloads/

let me know when to stop.

I don't even know where to start with this one. It's a pretty lame article about a pretty lame quote, but uses the word Criticize. Does the "360 Core" allow the users to use the same features as the regular 360 or not?

The answer is no, not without buying the part that makes it just like the regular one.

So what was the point exactly?

Oh, and your original argument that Sony was nay-saying features that it later decided to use, yeah, that doesn't have anything to do with this article either.

So, please stop posting links if they aren't relevant. :-P

I'm winning the special olympics!!

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 03:10 PM

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 03:17 PM

I don't even know where to start with this one. It's a pretty lame article about a pretty lame quote, but uses the word Criticize. Does the "360 Core" allow the users to use the same features as the regular 360 or not?

The answer is no, not without buying the part that makes it just like the regular one.

So what was the point exactly?

Oh, and your original argument that Sony was nay-saying features that it later decided to use, yeah, that doesn't have anything to do with this article either.

So, please stop posting links if they aren't relevant. :-P

I'm winning the special olympics!!

my posting the links was a reponse to somone asking when/where sony has done these things. these are links from a quick google search.

TyrantII

01-02-09, 03:29 PM

the fact that you can read that and deduct that they do not reflect sony internal opinion is beyond me. the fact is that since the release of the original xbox, sony has repeatedly downplayed or criticized the additions microsoft (and the wii) has brought to the console market. i'll continue to use the ps3 for what it essentially was designed for, a blu ray player, and pick up a game every now and again.

my posting the links was a reponse to somone asking when/where sony has done these things. these are links from a quick google search.

Which show nothing of the sorts.

You're lacking in the critical thinking area if you assume editorials equate Sony public commentary on the Xbox, or the majority of it's owners opinions.

I saw someone saying that the moon landings were faked in my local paper, and that global warming is bunk. Oh yeah, Obama's a socialist too!

But that doesn't mean it true, nor a majority opinion.

Stick to quotes, and quotations in context. Anything else is the opinion of the author, and any quotations out of context, can easily be used out of context to make a point not reflected by the author. School teaches ya that man, at least it should.

Anyways, please head back to the xbox forum, or get back on topic. If you bothered reading the thread, it's been kind to MSFT until you came in trying to stir things up with nonsensical fanboy preachings.

confidenceman

01-02-09, 03:37 PM

Wow. This thread turned bad very quickly. It had been going okay for a while. Too bad. Predicting thread lock shortly. :rolleyes:

Dan C OSG

01-02-09, 03:41 PM

Which show nothing of the sorts.

I saw someone saying that the moon landings were faked in my local paper, and that global warming is bunk. Oh yeah, Obama's a socialist too!

But that doesn't mean it true, nor a majority opinion.

Stick to quotes, and quotations in context. Anything else is the opinion of the author, and any quotations out of context, can easily be used out of context to make a point not reflected by the author. .

Its like the Real worl TV show, or any of the sort. They can make you look sound or act anyway they want . 100 hours of fill to 30 hours of tv = manipulation.

Context is the most relevant part of a statement.

Nice rant

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080921-playstation-3-video-drm-two-strikes-and-youre-out.html

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 03:41 PM

Which show nothing of the sorts.

You're lacking in the critical thinking area if you assume editorials equate Sony public commentary on the Xbox, or the majority of it's owners opinions.

I saw someone saying that the moon landings were faked in my local paper, and that global warming is bunk. Oh yeah, Obama's a socialist too!

But that doesn't mean it true, nor a majority opinion.

Stick to quotes, and quotations in context. Anything else is the opinion of the author, and any quotations out of context, can easily be used out of context to make a point not reflected by the author. School teaches ya that man, at least it should.

Anyways, please head back to the xbox forum, or get back on topic. If you bothered reading the thread, it's been kind to MSFT until you came in trying to stir things up with nonsensical fanboy preachings.
as i stated, i own both, so there was no ill intent in my original comments. i never said that i used those specific articles for information. in fact i didn't. some of the comments i heard from sony officials at previous e3 shows i attended. if you truly believe sony is the saint and never made or insinuated any of these comments you are either not a longtime gamer, or your just ignorant. any to my recollection, i haven't made many, if any comments in the xbox forum.

TyrantII

01-02-09, 03:49 PM

as i stated, i own both, so there was no ill intent in my original comments. i never said that i used those specific articles for information. in fact i didn't. some of the comments i heard from sony officials at previous e3 shows i attended. if you truly believe sony is the saint and never made or insinuated any of these comments you are either not a longtime gamer, or your just ignorant. any to my recollection, i haven't made many, if any comments in the xbox forum.

Long time gamer too, and I do recognize the flame bait that you've been talking about. It happens on both sides.

But it isn't Sony policy, or the views of the majority of it's consumers.

That's why I'm asking for quotes in context, because when you step back and look for them, they just aren't there. Plenty of opinion though.

Taking a quote from Sony saying they felt that you shouldn't have to pay to go online with their service, trimming off the context, adding opinion (flame bait / controversy that sells), and printing it to get some fanboys to repeat it over and over, and boom, there you go. Conventional wisdom, Evaaaal Corporation!

That stuff wears thin on me.

slicecom

01-02-09, 04:03 PM

i haven't made many, if any comments in the xbox forum.

This inspired me to check out your post history, and while you haven't made any posts in the xbox forum, your entire time on avsforums has basically been spent singing the praises of HDDVD and bashing bluray, Sony and PS3. Makes me wonder why you even own a PS3...

mboojigga

01-02-09, 04:17 PM

No, I'm well aware of what I'm missing, but none of it really compels me. The main games that people stress I need a 360 for are Gears (played the first on PC, didn't like it), Castle Crashers (I hate the Behemoth ever since they got famous for shamelessly copying Metal Slug and getting kudos like they did something super-original), and Braid (no interest). I don't have Netflix and their streaming selection doesn't really impress me, so that's not a draw either. Xbox Live is a more stable platform, but since it's based on P2P you are basically spending $50 a year on a glorified matchmaking service, which I don't really feel like giving MS money for.

Basically, the 360 doesn't fit my needs. And a lot of PS3 exclusives are necessities in my book (Wipeout, SSHD, SOCOM, a surprising number of others). PS3 is just the system for me, and I don't feel like spending the money for another system I really won't have much time for.

As for PS3s breaking and not being covered, I rarely rely on the manufacturer's warranty. My PS3 has a four-year warranty (and it's not limited to one issue like MS's three-year one is) that I got at the time of purchase for around $25.

Well clearly you have no intentions even before someone posted about the intsall option to fix the noise you had conerns with. You then started giving new reasons why you won't buy it right after saying you might if they fix the noise.

Dan C OSG

01-02-09, 04:41 PM

This inspired me to check out your post history, and while you haven't made any posts in the xbox forum, your entire time on avsforums has basically been spent singing the praises of HDDVD and bashing bluray, Sony and PS3. Makes me wonder why you even own a PS3...

I too checked his posts.

Yes they tend to be negative. But honeslyt he is communicating. By no means does it sound like he cant remove nails from teh PS3 (if you know what i mean)...

I disagree with 90% of the possts here. HE is atleast attempting to bring some info and thought to the table.

In the name of John Lennon

Let it be

Martez

01-02-09, 06:07 PM

Well clearly you have no intentions even before someone posted about the intsall option to fix the noise you had conerns with. You then started giving new reasons why you won't buy it right after saying you might if they fix the noise.

The install option isn't a "fix."

mboojigga

01-02-09, 06:28 PM

The install option isn't a "fix."

I have a three 360's with one of them being a Dec 05 launch model. I never had an issue with the drive noise in the first place. I am aware there are different models like Samsung that are in the systems. What would you call the optional install to be since you think it doesn't fix the noise when that is what the whole point of the update was made for?

number1laing

01-02-09, 06:33 PM

The install option isn't a "fix."

The noise on my 360 is horrendous, and when I install a game then play it, it is not horrendous. Hmm. Okay, maybe that's not a real fix in that it 100% solves the problem forever and ever but it very much is a fix in that it is a clear and obvious method to eliminate the noise on the game you are playing.

Besides, it's not even like the noise is constant - it varies from unit to unit. That's of course not to say that you would find the most quiet model, but

And yea, there's a lot more on the platform than just Gears and Castle Crashers and Braid. I could make a long, annoying list but I will refrain; simply put anyone who plays a lot of games should have a 360 along with a PS3 if they can afford it.

number1laing

01-02-09, 06:36 PM

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E5D81438F933A15756C0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

No generalizations here

That article doesn't have a quote from Sony saying that gamers don't want to play each other online, that is what PCs are for, which is what you claimed Sony had said. Considering in 2002 Sony was selling an adapter for playing games online AND online compatible games I highly doubt that was the belief within their ranks.

So yea, what you said was pretty much horse ****.

Martez

01-02-09, 06:40 PM

What would you call the optional install to be since you think it doesn't fix the noise when that is what the whole point of the update was made for?

I think the point of it is preparation for a larger number of multi-disc games (like MGS4, eventually). For instance, if a game came on four discs, you could install three of them and be done with it.

slicecom

01-02-09, 06:59 PM

The noise on my 360 is horrendous, and when I install a game then play it, it is not horrendous. Hmm. Okay, maybe that's not a real fix in that it 100% solves the problem forever and ever but it very much is a fix in that it is a clear and obvious method to eliminate the noise on the game you are playing.

Besides, it's not even like the noise is constant - it varies from unit to unit. That's of course not to say that you would find the most quiet model, but

It's more of a band-aid, not a fix, and causes other issues, like limited HDD space. I don't understand why they don't just upgrade the drive in it, it'd probably cost them pennies per system. While they're at it, they should put some quieter fans in as well. My 40GB PS3 is the quietest system I've owned since N64 (and I own all the major consoles since then, except 360).

simply put anyone who plays a lot of games should have a 360 along with a PS3 if they can afford it.

And vice versa.

Lucky for me, the 360 games that I want to play are either available on PS3 or PC. However I can't get some of my favorite games (MGS4, LBP, F1CE, Gran Turismo 5, Uncharted etc...) anywhere but on the PS3.

confidenceman

01-02-09, 07:15 PM

It's more of a band-aid, not a fix, and causes other issues, like limited HDD space.Hard to say exactly what MS was thinking with the HDD installs. Maybe it's meant as a potential boon to developers? They can then include "optional" HDD installs (like some PS3 games). Maybe it helps cut down on the overall heat issues that continue to plague the hardware (thereby saving them possible future replacement/repair costs)? Maybe it convinces developers that space constraints aren't actually an issue (multiple discs, etc)?

I don't understand why they don't just upgrade the drive in it, it'd probably cost them pennies per system. While they're at it, they should put some quieter fans in as well.I highly doubt MS will do any major revision to the hardware. The addition of HDMI was a minor (and pointless IMO) revision that changed nothing in what the hardware does, how it works, or how well it performs. That was just a basic concession to the "HD crowd." The only changes they'll make are changes that make it cheaper to produce (like smaller chips).

If MS is going to dump a bunch of cash and time into hardware design, it won't be into the hopelessly flawed current console. From MS's perspective, it is what it is and will only get some changes for the sake of production efficiency and maybe the occasional cosmetic change. I'm sure they're thinking much more about their next gen system and putting their money and effort into that.

mboojigga

01-02-09, 07:33 PM

I think the point of it is preparation for a larger number of multi-disc games (like MGS4, eventually). For instance, if a game came on four discs, you could install three of them and be done with it.

Are you just guessing or do you actually know how the install works? Are you assuming that if you have a multi-disc set that by installing them all you need is one disc? If so that is not how it works. If it ask for disc 2 you still have to put disc 2 in to play. Because of legal reason you have to have the disc in the drive for verification. You stated your friend has a 360 so did he download the update and if so maybe you should see how it actually works and realize it doesn't matter if you have a PS3 or 360 and optional installs or mandatory, you still have to get up and put the disc in. The multi disc sets are already here. Blue Dragon for one.

Martez

01-02-09, 08:01 PM

Are you just guessing or do you actually know how the install works? Are you assuming that if you have a multi-disc set that by installing them all you need is one disc? If so that is not how it works.

Microsoft said that was one of the benefits of the new feature. Maybe it will only work for future games, but I remember it being announced and an MS guy saying it is great for multi-disc RPGs because you wouldn't need to switch discs, you could just keep the first one in. I guess you should call them up and let them know they are wrong.

confidenceman

01-02-09, 08:01 PM

Another trait of the HDD installs is that the load-time benefit differs greatly between titles. Some benefit (slightly) others have no change whatsoever. If there's any substantial benefit in terms of load times and installs, it's only for future titles that purposely take advantage of the HDD install.

Otherwise, the only benefit is reduced drive noise.

BTW I'm also superstitiously scared to install games to the HDD. My 360 RRoDed while playing Fallout 3 from the harddrive. So I don't even bother with the installs now. :)

mboojigga

01-02-09, 08:32 PM

Microsoft said that was one of the benefits of the new feature. Maybe it will only work for future games, but I remember it being announced and an MS guy saying it is great for multi-disc RPGs because you wouldn't need to switch discs, you could just keep the first one in. I guess you should call them up and let them know they are wrong.

I saw the conference too and it was stated on websites at the time to clarify the obvious. You have to have the disc in the tray in order to play the game. For multi disc sets if you are on disc 2 you have to put that disc in to continue just like before the update. The updates purpose was to decrease the noise and heat and depending on the game speed up load times. That is it. They legally can't do what you thought you heard.

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 08:45 PM

This inspired me to check out your post history, and while you haven't made any posts in the xbox forum, your entire time on avsforums has basically been spent singing the praises of HDDVD and bashing bluray, Sony and PS3. Makes me wonder why you even own a PS3...

what does me supporting hd dvd have to do with anything. i still belive it to be a superior format (cmon, the highest rated player is a gaming console), but that doesn't mean i can't support another format. i can't get TDK or Tranformers 2 in HD DVD, so for the $250 i payed for the ps3 i think it was worth the money.

Martez

01-02-09, 08:47 PM

I saw the conference too and it was stated on websites at the time to clarify the obvious. You have to have the disc in the tray in order to play the game. For multi disc sets if you are on disc 2 you have to put that disc in to continue just like before the update. The updates purpose was to decrease the noise and heat and depending on the game speed up load times. That is it. They legally can't do what you thought you heard.

So it's just a crutch for shoddy hardware, then? Oh. :D

CKYRO1

01-02-09, 08:50 PM

That article doesn't have a quote from Sony saying that gamers don't want to play each other online, that is what PCs are for, which is what you claimed Sony had said. Considering in 2002 Sony was selling an adapter for playing games online AND online compatible games I highly doubt that was the belief within their ranks.

So yea, what you said was pretty much horse ****.

as i said previously, these are not articles where i heard the info from previously...they were just from a quick google search. and sony very well said that about online gaming when xbox live was launched. the online attachment they released came after live starting looking like a success. to my recollection,there were only a few games that could even utilize the online aspect. socom comes to mind.

mboojigga

01-02-09, 08:57 PM

So it's just a crutch for shoddy hardware, then? Oh. :D

If you want to look at it that way. I haven't had RROD and I own a launch 360, Elite and 60 gig. All 4 of my systems have worked just fine.

mboojigga

01-02-09, 08:59 PM

number1laing

01-02-09, 09:02 PM

as i said previously, these are not articles where i heard the info from previously...they were just from a quick google search. and sony very well said that about online gaming when xbox live was launched. the online attachment they released came after live starting looking like a success. to my recollection,there were only a few games that could even utilize the online aspect. socom comes to mind.

The network adapter came out at the tail end of 2002, the same time Xbox Live launched. So, no, the attachment was not released "after live starting looking like a success". There were plenty of games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_2_network_games) that utilized the network adapter, and EA sports games supported it before they supported Live.

number1laing

01-02-09, 09:05 PM

It's more of a band-aid, not a fix, and causes other issues, like limited HDD space. I don't understand why they don't just upgrade the drive in it, it'd probably cost them pennies per system. While they're at it, they should put some quieter fans in as well. My 40GB PS3 is the quietest system I've owned since N64 (and I own all the major consoles since then, except 360).

It is a band aid, but its a band aid that does exactly what it needs to do. If you have the hard drive space it works great - cuts down on noise AND helps out some games on load times. As for limited HDD space, thats an issue on PS3s as well, the difference being of course many PS3 games require installation.

The 40GB PS3 is a pretty awesomely quiet system, in fact it is quieter even than most PS3s.

pennhunter

01-02-09, 09:49 PM

PS2 is still the king........PS3, not doing so well........

link (http://gizmodo.com/5122098/america-still-plays-more-ps2-than-xbox-360-and-wii-combined)

imdjenk

01-02-09, 10:51 PM

Does anyone know how long the PS2 was out before it took over primary usage fom the PS1? Sometimes, I just don't feel like googling, ya know?

Hughmc

01-02-09, 11:10 PM

The PS3 is still in existence? Say it aint so. I have two I never use since the games suck, BD is going to die and the internet and media capabilities will fail eventually too. I have gone back to 8 track and 8mm film. :rolleyes:

Martez

01-03-09, 12:10 AM

Jdurg

01-03-09, 02:06 AM

Betamax is STILL going to win the war!!!!! :p

Auditor_Kevin

01-03-09, 02:23 AM

number1laing

01-03-09, 03:34 AM

It's all about niches.

The wii is for kids and VERY casual gamers that impulse shop.

The 360 is for bona fide gamers that are teenagers or early 20s that don't give a rats ass about home theater.

The PS3 is for those of us that want bluray AND gaming capabilities. I have 5 good friends that are my age (34) and they all own PS3s.

At least from what I've seen, it's just an age thing. And speaking as someone that likes to game online, I wouldn't have it any other way. Something tells me the PS3 Call of Duty online experience is LIGHT YEARS ahead of the 360 Call of Duty online experience.

It's really not about niches at all.

Remember, Microsoft made a big deal about 360 being designed around high def when high def was still a niche; they were going after the people that give a rat's ass or more about home theater before PS3 came out. And let's be real! Just going after the home theater nuts isn't going to make a system successful. And while its true Microsoft has been targetting gamers with the 360 (and selling very well to them), you won't be able to convince me that Sony hasn't made a run at that same exact group. It is, after all, a group that has been playing PlayStation branded consoles for a decade.

The Wii has been successful among all age groups. It's been the #1 Christmas toy 3 years in a row. 3 years! It's selling to everyone! And "everyone" is a much larger group than "guys that want bluray and gaming capabilities" or "gamers that are teenagers or early 20s".

As for your last comment, no, something tells me its not. There is nothing intrinsically superior about the PS3's audience, as the release of Home with instant humping of any female avatars should have made abundantly clear. The fact that you run into less homophobic/racist kids on PSN is solely a function of there being no packed in headset. I know I've heard plenty of awful stuff on PSN just as with XBL.

Martez

01-03-09, 04:55 AM

Hughmc

01-03-09, 05:06 AM

Don't forget your CRT TVs and RGB cables if you want Sonic the Hedgehog to look its best!

Ha ha, I miss that guy don't you? :D

ChrisFB

01-03-09, 06:17 AM

as the release of Home with instant humping of any female avatars should have made abundantly clear.

Hilarious. Home just got a lot cooler in my eyes.

stupendousman

01-03-09, 07:23 AM

It's the price, and the price alone.

It's got the best hardware.

It's gameplay is as good (or debatedly better) than any of the other consoles.

As far as exclusives go, you can't do much better than MGS4 which more game/tech sites name as "Game of the Year" than any other title - people have to have a PS3 to play the best game of the year, as far as marketing goes.

It's the price. People should stop looking at other factors. All things being equal (including price and BC), the PS3 would be the current market leader. Given that Sony probably knew the price would be high long term, they probably also prepared NOT to be the market leader short term.

dragonyeuw

01-03-09, 08:08 AM

The Wii has been successful among all age groups. It's been the #1 Christmas toy 3 years in a row. 3 years! It's selling to everyone! And "everyone" is a much larger group than "guys that want bluray and gaming capabilities" or "gamers that are teenagers or early 20s".

Frankly,the Wii's success astounds me. I had it destined for 3rd place, despite it's strong showing at E3 2006. I just figured the wiimote would soon prove to be more a gimmick than an innovative way of playing games. I still feel that way, but the numbers suggest that most people feel the opposite. I would say it's completely about price except that the 360,technically superior in every way and with an undeniably more diverse library, starts at $50 cheaper for the arcade. Though it does have the RROD stigma which it may never live down.

I often hear the argument that the Wii is in it's own market, and left Sony and Microsoft to battle themselves. I half agree with this. While the Wii has expanded the market to people who would not normally play games, it's primary function is no different. It is a video game machine,plain and simple. Though not with the secondary features of the PS3 or 360, it's purpose ultimately is no different. And make no mistake,Wii sales do detract from 360 and PS3 ones. And Nintendo wants your money. They're not hoping that you own a Wii AND a 360 or PS3.They hope you own a Wii and NOT own a 360 or PS3, means more money for Nintendo games and accessories than spending it elsewhere. So Nintendo is very much a competitor to Sony and Microsoft,they just chose to take a different path to your money.

Getting a bit off topic, this is a PS3 discussion...:D

flagyl

01-03-09, 09:42 AM

Ok, citations needed.

I think you're dolling out the same generalizations that you claim Sony and the majority of it's fanbase said. Some internet trolls are not the same as Sony, nor the majority of it's fanbase.

Why do people always fall back on these generalizations?

For the record, I own a PS3 60 gig, that is PS2 compatible and I would be VERY upset if it broke and I had to get one of the newer PS3s that won't play PS2 games (I also own a 360).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Kutaragi

"Kutaragi has labelled the Xbox 360 as "just an Xbox 1.5" and stated that it was "only going after PlayStation 2".[8] Kutaragi also touted a number of hardware features to show the PS3's superiority over the Xbox 360 which never actually made it into the final hardware.[9] "

If you go to the Wiki article, check reference #9 to read about the broken promises. I understand that the final spec of a product may differ from the planning stages, but even I, someone who doesn't scour internet gaming sites, have heard the disparaging remarks made by Ken about the 360 when he compared it to the PS3.

confidenceman

01-03-09, 11:34 AM

If you go to the Wiki article, check reference #9 to read about the broken promises.:D

From that link, here's the list of "broken promises": players will have four USB ports, not the six shown in the 2005 images.the loss of the built-in internet router technology first promised in 2005.neither model supports dual-HDMI video output, a feature Sony made sure to hype in their press announcements last year.the final version will be quite a bit thicker than the 2005 E3 mock-up.The 2005 PS3 had virtually no vents, but the slightly thicker 2006 model is loaded with ventilationKutaragi should be burned alive for not following through on such absolutely essential features. :rolleyes:

flagyl

01-03-09, 12:15 PM

:D

From that link, here's the list of "broken promises": Kutaragi should be burned alive for not following through on such absolutely essential features. :rolleyes:

So you want more, huh?

http://ps2.boomtown.net/en_uk/articles/art.view.php?id=9670

"This is just what we need to spice up a slow Sunday: Ken Kutaragi is back with a new statement and it's actually more bold than the average Ken-statement. While he doesn't bash the Xbox 360 this time, he promises a technical revolution with the PS3.

During the Tokyo International Digital Conference he said he expects the PS3 to be capable of running games at a stunning 120 fps. While no TV is capable of that speed, yet, he stresses the importance of being ready for future standards, which is of course correct. One unfortunate side-effect will of course be all the "hardcore" gamers dismissing anything less than 60 fps as a slide-show once we see 120 fps PS3 games, although the human eye has a hard time telling the diffence." Here is the source for that blurb:http://www.gamespot.com/news/6136786.html?tag=result;title;2

And who can forget being told that we, as gamers, don't want rumble anymore, when in fact Sony didn't want to pay Immersion for their technology?

While not a broken promise, this quote speaks to Kutaragi's arrogance: "When asked his opinion of the PS3's competitors, Microsoft's Xbox 360 and Nintendo's Wii, Kutaragi was blunt. "We don't care," he flatly told the trade." http://www.gamespot.com/news/6159054.html?tag=result;title;8

More? "Last week, Sony Worldwide Studios president Phil Harrison caused a semi-furor by insinuating the PlayStation 3 could replace the PC in the home. While his comments were mainly directed at the console's entertainment and multimedia capabilities, Sony has long said that the PS3 will have some PC-like functions.

That line was repeated again today by Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi. Speaking with Japanese site PC Impress Watch, the executive defended the PS3's high $499/$599 price points by saying it was not just another console. "Unlike previous PlayStations, it is clearly a computer," he said according to a GameSpot translation."" http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152485.html?tag=result;title;8

Do you REALLY think your PS3 can replace your PC? I don't and I like my PS3.

I can do this all day.

cuco33

01-03-09, 12:17 PM

From that link, here's the list of "broken promises": Kutaragi should be burned alive for not following through on such absolutely essential features. :rolleyes:

Actually there was a lot more that he mentioned and promised that didn't follow suit or was forced in/out. The original 20gb systems weren't supposed to have HDMI and the press made a field day out of it basically forcing them to pack it in. But my issue with broken promises aren't the things you mentioned... it's what they did over time. Added rumble, dropped SACD (not my thing), dropped PS2 BC all together, etc.

bassmonkeee

01-03-09, 12:17 PM

I can do this all day.

You say that like it's something to be proud of.

cuco33

01-03-09, 12:22 PM

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with that age argument. The price is the major barrier. My father is in his 50's and loves his original Xbox. He wants a 360 so he can continue the Halo series and because it's the cheapest entry to 'next-gen.' He'd like a PS3 for some of his favorite games are Wipeout and Metal Gear Solid, but the price is holding him back.

There's far more of my types of parents than your pops. My parents are the type that knows how to use the remote to change channels and even that they botch. My pops is currently taking classes to learn computers, the moms don't even think about it. Yet at a holiday gathering last year I got them both to play, and have fun, with the Wii. I know the Wii isn't praised much on here but what it does is something I never thought it'ld do. Many friend's gatherings are spent playing the Wii, even the girls who HATE gaming will stand around in line for some time to play their turn. Try that on the vast majority of people in all age groups with a 360/PS3 and you'll see that the Wii outshines in that department. It's the perfect bundled system to tag along with the HD systems in my book.

flagyl

01-03-09, 12:28 PM

You say that like it's something to be proud of.

You mean pointing out facts to people instead of innuendo and half truths? Yes, I'm quite proud of it.

I'm guessing you like to spend your day making snide remarks...well, we all need a hobby I suppose.

TyrantII

01-03-09, 12:44 PM

You mean pointing out facts to people instead of innuendo and half truths? Yes, I'm quite proud of it.

I'm guessing you like to spend your day making snide remarks...well, we all need a hobby I suppose.

still looking for interviews and transcripts. I'm seeing a lot of pundit commentary, like i said, with no links to the source.

It's also common knowledge that the ps3 was pulled back from it's original specs. Sony said as much when the time came and they realized the price tag.

flagyl

01-03-09, 12:52 PM

still looking for interviews and transcripts. I'm seeing a lot of pundit commentary, like i said, with no links to the source.

It's also common knowledge that the ps3 was pulled back from it's original specs. Sony said as much when the time came and they realized the price tag.

I provided the links to the articles...now my understanding is that Kutaragi only speaks Japanese, so even if I posted them, would you be able to read them?

What you are saying is that if I posted a link to an article from the NY Times which quoted the President as saying something, but you didn't see the official transcripts of the speech, you would doubt the veracity of what the Times printed?

Looking back, all of the Gamespot articles state where Kuratagi said what he is quoted as having said...so if you want, you can go back and verify the statements. What I posted are his quotes, not opinions of pundits.

imdjenk

01-03-09, 01:12 PM

I provided the links to the articles...now my understanding is that Kutaragi only speaks Japanese, so even if I posted them, would you be able to read them?

What you are saying is that if I posted a link to an article from the NY Times which quoted the President as saying something, but you didn't see the official transcripts of the speech, you would doubt the veracity of what the Times printed?

Looking back, all of the Gamespot articles state where Kuratagi said what he is quoted as having had said...so if you want, you can go back and verify the statements. What I posted are his quotes, not opinions of pundits.

What I don't understand is what you are trying to prove. The PS3 was stripped of some features before launch, ok so? Common knowledge and irrelevant to the original topic. And of course Ken Kataguri praises the PS3 so highly he is the father of the Playstation.. the utimate fanboy! Some remarks he made may have been out of line but many also out of context. (He only speaks Japanese, remember?) Have some respect as Kataguri made video games what they are today. The success of the original Playstation and PS2 is the reason Microsoft wanted in on the home console market in the first place. Sony proved that a new player can come into the market and succeed.

Gslide

01-03-09, 01:20 PM

Eat crow they will......

imdjenk

01-03-09, 01:30 PM

Me?? :confused: This is my first post towards flagyl. As a matter of fact its one of only two posts I made in this entire thread. (maybe three) Unless you were directing that comment at somebody else...

jrinck

01-03-09, 01:32 PM

"Unlike previous PlayStations, it is clearly a computer," he said according to a GameSpot translation."" http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152485.html?tag=result;title;8

Do you REALLY think your PS3 can replace your PC? I don't and I like my PS3.

The PS3 web browser makes Internet Explorer look like the work of a team of geniuses.

The PS3 browser can't even show playstation.com without running out of memory. :D

flagyl

01-03-09, 01:42 PM

What I don't understand is what you are trying to prove. The PS3 was stripped of some features before launch, ok so? Common knowledge and irrelevant to the original topic. And of course Ken Kataguri praises the PS3 so highly he is the father of the Playstation.. the utimate fanboy! Some remarks he made may have been out of line but many also out of context. (He only speaks Japanese, remember?) Have some respect as Kataguri made video games what they are today. The success of the original Playstation and PS2 is the reason Microsoft wanted in on the home console market in the first place. Sony proved that a new player can come into the market and succeed.

I'm not trying to prove anything. Cuco (and CKYRO-sorry man, I forgot to add you as well. My bad.) stated earlier that Sony made claims that proved to be hyperbole; others challenged Cuco (and CKYRO) to show evidence. When Cuco (and CKYRO) do, the evidence is refuted. Cuco (and CKYRO) don't need my help, but I, also am providing evidence that Sony has made claims that were far-reaching and arrogant (remember the first PSP and the square button? Remember Ken's responses?).

I don't have a lack of respect for Sony (although I don't need you to tell me who I do or don't need to respect) and that is not what this branch of the thread is about. This branch of the thread is about whether or not Ken/Sony made claims that amounted to hyperbole. He/they did.

You can defend them if you wish, but the facts remain. That said, what Ken/Sony did or didn't do, said or didn't say, has no bearing on the consumer who purchases the PS3; I don't see any reason to be upset if someone points out the inaccuracies of what some big wig at some company says (unless you are a stock holder and what he says will affect your portfolio).

I'll say it once again in case anyone missed it: I LIKE MY PS3 (in fact I have bought two of them and gave one to my bro). That's about $800-$900 right there, not including games, blu rays, peripherals, PSN purchases etc.

FrankJ.Cone

01-03-09, 01:50 PM

Eat crow they will......

Oh Sony has already eaten enough crow to depopulate the species with the PS3! And to think if they had held it back until this holiday season the PS2 would probably still be the #1 selling system and the PS3 would easily be $299 launching with quite a future ahead of it.

Martez

01-03-09, 02:01 PM

I think this thread needs some narwhals or something to save it...

flagyl

01-03-09, 02:34 PM

...Have some respect as Kataguri made video games what they are today. ...

Miyamoto and the developers at Sega (back in the day, especially) were/are hacks I guess.

pdiss88

01-03-09, 03:15 PM

This whole thread is an epic facepalm.

imdjenk

01-03-09, 03:53 PM

Miyamoto and the developers at Sega (back in the day, especially) were/are hacks I guess.

*facepalm* is right.

I'm flattered you quoted my post twice.

bassmonkeee

01-03-09, 04:04 PM

WJonathan

01-03-09, 04:13 PM

I think this thread needs some narwhals or something to save it...

As you wish.

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo230/wijoco/narwhalragi.jpg

flagyl

01-03-09, 04:15 PM

*facepalm* is right.

I'm flattered you quoted my post twice.

Well, there were so many things to correct. :) (I'm only joking with you. I mean no harm...it was kind of an opening though.)

Martez

01-03-09, 05:01 PM

As you wish.

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo230/wijoco/narwhalragi.jpg

Win. Thank you!

confidenceman

01-04-09, 12:34 AM

Over the past two days, the two threads devoted to system sales/comparisons have spiraled out of control faster than Tom Cruise speaking to a group of women with postpartum depression. :rolleyes:

pennhunter

01-04-09, 01:03 AM

Over the past two days, the two threads devoted to system sales/comparisons have spiraled out of control faster than Tom Cruise speaking to a group of women with postpartum depression. :rolleyes:

You mean they're sinking as fast as the PS3?

Just kidding it's not going anywhere, it will survive this console war.

SirDrexl

01-04-09, 03:41 AM

Miyamoto and the developers at Sega (back in the day, especially) were/are hacks I guess.

Don't forget John Carmack and John Romero. They had as much influence on today's games as anybody. :)

flagyl

01-04-09, 03:49 AM

Don't forget John Carmack and John Romero. They had as much influence on today's games as anybody. :)

Very true, SirD. I was thinking consoles, and I forgot about the PC. I can't tell you how excited I was when I played Quake for the first time. Doom was fun, but Quake was a totally different experience. I think it was the first PC game I ever bought (all the other PC games, I played on someone else's PC because I wasn't that interested in them).

I think it's fair to say Id and the two Johns set the tone for the FPS as we know it today.

JD23

01-04-09, 09:28 AM

I can't believe that this thread and the other death of PS3 thread are still going simultaneously. I guess it's a slow gaming period until Killzone 2 is released.

TyrantII

01-04-09, 12:00 PM

I can't believe that this thread and the other death of PS3 thread are still going simultaneously. I guess it's a slow gaming period until Killzone 2 is released.

You kidding? I'm still trying to catch up from the fall tsunami...

W@W down, Deadspace, here I come.

confidenceman

01-04-09, 01:23 PM

I can't believe that this thread and the other death of PS3 thread are still going simultaneously. I guess it's a slow gaming period until Killzone 2 is released.That, and a bunch of new folks got consoles over the holidays, so there are more people to keep old bitch-fests alive.

Mikazaru

01-04-09, 11:53 PM

I can't believe that this thread and the other death of PS3 thread are still going simultaneously. I guess it's a slow gaming period until Killzone 2 is released.

http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/4389.html

This article offers some good advice... just ignore the haters. I have to admit that the Kyser has been pretty lax lately though.

ChrisFB

01-05-09, 07:20 AM

http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/4389.html

This article offers some good advice... just ignore the haters. I have to admit that the Kyser has been pretty lax lately though.

Actually, there was never any issue with threads like this or mature discussion until these forums got polluted with the teen jackass set a few years ago around console launch when HDTVs were simultaneously coming into the mainstream (thanks for the search hits google). This went from a small niche forum of home theater fans with an average age >35 to very close to the Gamefaqs crowd. Hence all the problems (forums split into console specific, heavy mod activity where previously there was none, instant locked threads).

While this thread isn't terribly positive for the PS3, I've actually been thrilled to see that a reasonably mature discussion was even possible. The forum is reverting to some semblance of normalcy. That said, I've never seen an issue with stopping threads like this just because they aren't positive, providing it doesn't disrupt the entire place with immature crap. We used to have them all the time last gen mainly around Nintendo ironically (PS4 should be huge given the trend), pretty good discussions too mostly focused on business models and marketing strategy. The way I see it, if people can't respectfully discuss a topic about a game system, express their own views and realize that others will have different opinions, they don't belong on a forum. I'd have banned people personally but AVS took the kinder gentler route.

oilstain

01-05-09, 02:43 PM

For the record, I own a PS3 60 gig, that is PS2 compatible and I would be VERY upset if it broke and I had to get one of the newer PS3s that won't play PS2 games (I also own a 360).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Kutaragi

"Kutaragi has labelled the Xbox 360 as "just an Xbox 1.5" and stated that it was "only going after PlayStation 2".[8] Kutaragi also touted a number of hardware features to show the PS3's superiority over the Xbox 360 which never actually made it into the final hardware.[9] "

Thanks for that link, it was interesting reading. One odd thing that I noticed is that the second quote sited from source 8 doesn't exist in the article that it was quoted from. It looks like more spin without any context. The 'Trash Talkin' article from engaget says that he said it was:
"more like an Xbox 1.5" because it seems like an extension of the original console instead of something radically new.

Compare:
"just an Xbox 1.5" and stated that it was "only going after PlayStation 2"

and:
"more like an Xbox 1.5" because it seems like an extension of the original console instead of something radically new.

Undoubtedly Kutaragi was not saying very nice things about the XBox, but the double/triple spin put on it makes it sound much worse.

_Avarice_

01-05-09, 02:52 PM

That's why Wiki shouldn't be cited as a source. Ever.

I could tell you that pink elephants were spotted flying over the Straits of Gilbraltar and give you a Wiki link. For five or so minutes, it'd be true; at least as far as some ignorant net-kiddies are concerned.

cuco33

01-05-09, 02:53 PM

oilstain

01-05-09, 03:00 PM

So you want more, huh?

http://ps2.boomtown.net/en_uk/articles/art.view.php?id=9670

"This is just what we need to spice up a slow Sunday: Ken Kutaragi is back with a new statement and it's actually more bold than the average Ken-statement. While he doesn't bash the Xbox 360 this time, he promises a technical revolution with the PS3.

During the Tokyo International Digital Conference he said he expects the PS3 to be capable of running games at a stunning 120 fps. While no TV is capable of that speed, yet, he stresses the importance of being ready for future standards, which is of course correct. One unfortunate side-effect will of course be all the "hardcore" gamers dismissing anything less than 60 fps as a slide-show once we see 120 fps PS3 games, although the human eye has a hard time telling the diffence." Here is the source for that blurb:http://www.gamespot.com/news/6136786.html?tag=result;title;2

And who can forget being told that we, as gamers, don't want rumble anymore, when in fact Sony didn't want to pay Immersion for their technology?

While not a broken promise, this quote speaks to Kutaragi's arrogance: "When asked his opinion of the PS3's competitors, Microsoft's Xbox 360 and Nintendo's Wii, Kutaragi was blunt. "We don't care," he flatly told the trade." http://www.gamespot.com/news/6159054.html?tag=result;title;8

More? "Last week, Sony Worldwide Studios president Phil Harrison caused a semi-furor by insinuating the PlayStation 3 could replace the PC in the home. While his comments were mainly directed at the console's entertainment and multimedia capabilities, Sony has long said that the PS3 will have some PC-like functions.

That line was repeated again today by Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi. Speaking with Japanese site PC Impress Watch, the executive defended the PS3's high $499/$599 price points by saying it was not just another console. "Unlike previous PlayStations, it is clearly a computer," he said according to a GameSpot translation."" http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152485.html?tag=result;title;8

Do you REALLY think your PS3 can replace your PC? I don't and I like my PS3.

I can do this all day.

http://ps2.boomtown.net/en_uk/articl...ew.php?id=9670

"This is just what we need to spice up a slow Sunday: Ken Kutaragi is back with a new statement and it's actually more bold than the average Ken-statement. While he doesn't bash the Xbox 360 this time, he promises a technical revolution with the PS3.

During the Tokyo International Digital Conference he said he expects the PS3 to be capable of running games at a stunning 120 fps. While no TV is capable of that speed, yet, he stresses the importance of being ready for future standards, which is of course correct. One unfortunate side-effect will of course be all the "hardcore" gamers dismissing anything less than 60 fps as a slide-show once we see 120 fps PS3 games, although the human eye has a hard time telling the diffence." Here is the source for that blurb:http://www.gamespot.com/news/6136786...result;title;2

--All of this garbage comes from "he said he expects the PS3 to be capable of running games at a stunning 120 fps." That's it. That's what he said. No specifics of what games, and when, or if it will be a useful feature anytime soon. Just that he thinks the PS3 has enough horsepower to run games at 120 fps. I don't know enough about the technology crammed into the PS3, but I know it's got a lot of processors, and they can each process more info than my PC can, and I can get pretty high fps rates with it.

This was a pretty rude thing to say:
While not a broken promise, this quote speaks to Kutaragi's arrogance: "When asked his opinion of the PS3's competitors, Microsoft's Xbox 360 and Nintendo's Wii, Kutaragi was blunt. "We don't care," he flatly told the trade." http://www.gamespot.com/news/6159054.html?tag=result;title;8
I'd hope that he's lying about that, but whatever, I'm not in charge.

"Do you REALLY think your PS3 can replace your PC? I don't and I like my PS3."

Now that's just kooky-talk. How in the world could anyone consider replacing a PC with a PS3? It's not like Microsoft would make a Windows Vista PS3 edition! Too bad there aren't any other OS's designed for HD, that would install and run things like Firefox, or OpenOffice. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_PlayStation_3)

If I didn't have my PC and PS3 in the same room, I'd be interested in following that link there.

:-)

number1laing

01-05-09, 03:05 PM

While Kuturagi said a lot of nutty things, I think its worth noting that the PS3 was *very* much cut down from what it was originally supposed to be. The system we have now in our living rooms is not the system Ken envisioned. While its close enough in many ways (at least the 60gb/20gb are), the weak GPU and such are not. I even remember reading they planned to use a second Cell chip as the GPU, but had to take that out probably because of development and cost issues. A PS3 with a second Cell instead of the relatively lame RSX? Yea that would be pretty awesome!

And it also would've cost about $1000... which is why it didn't happen. Bottom line, Kuturagi got too big for his britches - he is a brilliant engineer that absolutely is a major influence on how gaming has developed. But as an engineer he had bosses to rein him in. As he moved up the ranks he eventually became the boss, and as such nobody reined him in. That is what led to his nutty comments and the PS3's overreach.

oilstain

01-05-09, 03:06 PM

I dunno... for me the best that's ever come out of Sony's mouth, and I know there's a lot but the one that takes the cake... 'HD starts when we say it does' yet there are NO HD cables of any means that came with the PS3 since launch! and multiplatform games are literally the same exact game sans minimal negligible differences. :rolleyes:

Got to love PR and marketing

And my HP printer said I could print things, but they gave me NO CABLE to hook the damned thing up! I'm so distraught.

Multiplatform games have to be very similar if they are going to be released to multiple platforms, it's kinda how they work. Unfortunately, it means that the game cannot take advantage of any of the systems' particular strenghts without making large coding changes for each version. That's up to the developers, not the platform.

oilstain

01-05-09, 03:08 PM

Martez

01-05-09, 03:09 PM

I think the best thing they ever said was that the PS3 was going to do 4D graphics at 120fps. I seriously think they were just being facetious and everyone thought they had gone nuts. Sony execs are master comedians as far as I'm concerned. And the haters cling to it like we were seriously supposed to expect 120fps graphics and the fabled "4D." :rolleyes:

I do wish they kept the router functions, though. That would've been badass.

number1laing

01-05-09, 03:10 PM

Another point too, even the RSX was slowed down close to the system launch, from 550mhz to 500mhz. That is a big hit on GPU speed. But its not like this is the first time some videogame exec was full of ****, all these guys are, some of the stuff MS has been saying this generation is just as idiotic, the stuff Sony said before PS2 launched was idiotic, these guys are all full of it.

pennhunter

01-05-09, 03:21 PM

Will there be a Sony in the future, much less the PS4?

link (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article5446963.ece)

Martez

01-05-09, 03:23 PM

Will there be a Sony in the future, much less the PS4?

link (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article5446963.ece)

Analysts are never wrong!

flagyl

01-05-09, 03:31 PM

http://ps2.boomtown.net/en_uk/articl...ew.php?id=9670

"This is just what we need to spice up a slow Sunday: Ken Kutaragi is back with a new statement and it's actually more bold than the average Ken-statement. While he doesn't bash the Xbox 360 this time, he promises a technical revolution with the PS3.

During the Tokyo International Digital Conference he said he expects the PS3 to be capable of running games at a stunning 120 fps. While no TV is capable of that speed, yet, he stresses the importance of being ready for future standards, which is of course correct. One unfortunate side-effect will of course be all the "hardcore" gamers dismissing anything less than 60 fps as a slide-show once we see 120 fps PS3 games, although the human eye has a hard time telling the diffence." Here is the source for that blurb:http://www.gamespot.com/news/6136786...result;title;2

--All of this garbage comes from "he said he expects the PS3 to be capable of running games at a stunning 120 fps." That's it. That's what he said. No specifics of what games, and when, or if it will be a useful feature anytime soon. Just that he thinks the PS3 has enough horsepower to run games at 120 fps. I don't know enough about the technology crammed into the PS3, but I know it's got a lot of processors, and they can each process more info than my PC can, and I can get pretty high fps rates with it.

This was a pretty rude thing to say:
While not a broken promise, this quote speaks to Kutaragi's arrogance: "When asked his opinion of the PS3's competitors, Microsoft's Xbox 360 and Nintendo's Wii, Kutaragi was blunt. "We don't care," he flatly told the trade." http://www.gamespot.com/news/6159054.html?tag=result;title;8
I'd hope that he's lying about that, but whatever, I'm not in charge.

"Do you REALLY think your PS3 can replace your PC? I don't and I like my PS3."

Now that's just kooky-talk. How in the world could anyone consider replacing a PC with a PS3? It's not like Microsoft would make a Windows Vista PS3 edition! Too bad there aren't any other OS's designed for HD, that would install and run things like Firefox, or OpenOffice. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_PlayStation_3)

If I didn't have my PC and PS3 in the same room, I'd be interested in following that link there.

:-)

OS, I like your style :). Yes, you can run Linux on your PS3...but is it practical? I think it's not (at least not for me...look around on this forum and you'll see a recent thread on difficulties of running Linux).

Also...no matter the context 120 FPS is just nuts, unless you are talking about a tech demo. What would you assume if you were looking at a press release and you saw that a console was capable of running at 120 FPS? You (rightfully in my opinion) say 'Look out PC, you have competition'.

My point was that there are some earlier in this thread that said that Ken never made any over-reaching or arrogant statements. That is FALSE. He did. Have there been arrogant and mis-leading claims made by Nintendo and Microsoft execs? I'm positive of it. The reason Ken kinda gets my ire up is because of the PSP button issue. He didn't acknowledge a problem...basically he said we were nuts to be concerned about it.

I'll state it again...I like my PS3. It is like a plain container that can be filled with a lot of koo stuff, if someone will take the time to fill it up.

oilstain

01-05-09, 03:50 PM

OS, I like your style :). Yes, you can run Linux on your PS3...but is it practical? I think it's not (at least not for me...look around on this forum and you'll see a recent thread on difficulties of running Linux).

Also...no matter the context 120 FPS is just nuts, unless you are talking about a tech demo. What would you assume if you were looking at a press release and you saw that a console was capable of running at 120 FPS? You (rightfully in my opinion) say 'Look out PC, you have competition'.

My point was that there are some earlier in this thread that said that Ken never made any over-reaching or arrogant statements. That is FALSE. He did. Have there been arrogant and mis-leading claims made by Nintendo and Microsoft execs? I'm positive of it. The reason Ken kinda gets my ire up is because of the PSP button issue. He didn't acknowledge a problem...basically he said we were nuts to be concerned about it.

I'll state it again...I like my PS3. It is like a plain container that can be filled with a lot of koo stuff, if someone will take the time to fill it up.

:-) I'm here to amuse.

I've never really looked into Linux as my initial impression is that it's not the easiest thing to work with on any platform. I sit in front of a computer all day, and if I'm going to sit in front of one at night, it's going to be for something fun.

So basically 120 fps is totally absurd with the hardware configuration in the PS3? The RSX gpu is much slower than what it was supposed to have in the first place?

I'll have to look at the PSP button issue (I don't have a PSP, never really needed one) quick link if you have one?

cuco33

01-05-09, 04:01 PM

And my HP printer said I could print things, but they gave me NO CABLE to hook the damned thing up! I'm so distraught. [quote]

I also think ANY piece of equipment should always come with means to use them out the box, including printers. But Sony pushing HD publicly for both gaming and Bluray movies, should at MINIMUM, include a means to connect them. I mean, at launch, they included SACD playback, WIFI, card readers etc... all fine and dandy if you plan to use them. But no HDMI? no Component? I feel similar with the 360's core coming only with composite but it is the core model after all and all other models come with component/HDMI in box.

[quote]
Multiplatform games have to be very similar if they are going to be released to multiple platforms, it's kinda how they work. Unfortunately, it means that the game cannot take advantage of any of the systems' particular strenghts without making large coding changes for each version. That's up to the developers, not the platform.

Agreed for the most part. Some multiplatform games have had big differences though. VF5 has no MP on the Sony side, Burnout on the MS side requires an HDD for MP gaming, etc... In general though the games themselves are the same. If the PS3 was as superior as Sony's PR made it out to be, we would see developers making 3 versions of a game. The Wii's SD version, 360's "HD Lite" and PS3's "Full HD". Money talks though and I'm not the one preaching superiority though and some comments/remarks by some of their heads screamed arrogance that has yet to be proven. I think that Sony's exclusives overall look a bit better than it's biggest rival as more time and effort seems to be pushed towards those aspects but 360 games look and sound just as good. Only way to win really is by owning both and not be limited to your game library selection :D

PS3 won't die this gen, but I'll agree it'll stay in 3rd up until MS and Nintendo release their next console. I also think this is the last time that Sony tries pushing a format they are heavily involved in, as well as use the Playstation platform and it's fans to push a media format. Oh, as well as rely solely and heavily on the fans. Wasn't there a stat that 40% of the 1st year 360 owners were PS2 owners? Add also that my opinion is both HD consoles will still make breakthrus in visuals and audio in games as time passes. GoW 1 and 2on PS2 was gorgeous and they both came late to the party.

flagyl

01-05-09, 04:04 PM

:-) I'm here to amuse.

I've never really looked into Linux as my initial impression is that it's not the easiest thing to work with on any platform. I sit in front of a computer all day, and if I'm going to sit in front of one at night, it's going to be for something fun.

So basically 120 fps is totally absurd with the hardware configuration in the PS3? The RSX gpu is much slower than what it was supposed to have in the first place?

I'll have to look at the PSP button issue (I don't have a PSP, never really needed one) quick link if you have one?

Gosh...I don't know anything about processors (or anything else for that matter :) ), so I have no idea if it is possible for that to happen. All I'm saying is that, as a average consumer, if the company tells me that the console is capable of 120 FPS, I shouldn't have to look for spin control.

PSP button issue:http://psp.ign.com/articles/581/581896p1.html

"The weekly magazine questioned Kutaragi about one problem in particular, the case of buttons not returning to their original position when pressed. This is a problem that the magazine itself encountered during an interview with an a high school student who was disappointed with his malfunctioning PSP unit. Kutaragi revealed that Sony Computer Entertainment does consider these button problems to be a manufacturing problem and will repair the systems. Of the current shipped PSP units, SCE has so far repaired 0.6% due to button problems.

However, Kutaragi stresses that many complaints about the system are due to areas that aren't flaws with the system, but are by design. In particular, Kutaragi points to another button issue where for some buttons, the system seems to not respond to button presses. Kutaragi argues that in many cases, users are pushing the buttons left and right and the system isn't registering a response. This is not, according to SCE, a flaw with the system.Kutaragi explained further, taking a bit of time to let us in on how much he loves his new system. "We didn't want to make the screen any smaller than it is, nor did we want to make the PSP system any larger. The position of the buttons were exactly what we aimed for. These are the specifications. This is a product that I made, and these are its specifications. It's not the case that error was a made -- it was all my desire. I think we made the most beautiful thing in the world."

We think Kutaragi is referring to the complaints that question the design of the system rather than the complaints about dead pixels, dust in strange places, ejecting UMDs, occasional crashes and the various other flaws that have been found by a few PSP users so far."

Another article:http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/kutaragi-defends-psp-design-despite-high-defect-rate

"Almost 5,000 PlayStation Portables returned for repair so far, reveals SCE boss
Sony Computer Entertainment boss Ken Kutaragi has defended a design decision in the PlayStation Portable which has led to a high rate of returns for the console, saying that it had a "clear purpose" and "wasn't a mistake".

Speaking with Japanese magazine Nikkei Business, Kutaragi revealed that around 4,800 PlayStation Portables have been returned for repair since the console launched last month - around 0.6 per cent of the shipped units of the system.

The bulk of these repairs have been due to problems with the square button on the handheld, which is less responsive than the others on the fascia due to being too close to the edge of the system's screen.

However, Kutaragi was unapologetic about the design of the console, saying that the button was created in this way on purpose and that users and developers will "have to adapt" to this quirk of the controls.

"I didn't want the PSP's LCD screen to become any smaller than this, nor did I want its machine body to become any larger," he told Nikkei Business. "The button's location is [engineered] on purpose. It's according to specifications. This is something that we've created, and this is our specification. There was a clear purpose to it, and it wasn't a mistake." "

_Avarice_

01-05-09, 04:08 PM

What would you assume if you were looking at a press release and you saw that a console was capable of running at 120 FPS? You (rightfully in my opinion) say 'Look out PC, you have competition'.

It wouldn't matter if PC were capable of 1000fps, it'd still be no competition for any of the consoles. Consoles have zero need to keep up with PC.

flagyl

01-05-09, 04:14 PM

It wouldn't matter if PC were capable of 1000fps, it'd still be no competition for any of the consoles. Consoles have zero need to keep up with PC.

It depends on the consumer. Both devices have a core market for sure but where the PC stands out (aside from graphical prowess), at least to me is cheaper software (usually $20 less) and USUALLY free add ons (Portal comes to mind). There are negatives to PCs as well...more complex and you have to keep up with the Jones'.

All that said,, if I could get the graphical power of a high mid-range PC on a console at slightly higher than normal console prices, I'd be very happy.

oilstain

01-05-09, 04:15 PM

If the PS3 was as superior as Sony's PR made it out to be, we would see developers making 3 versions of a game. The Wii's SD version, 360's "HD Lite" and PS3's "Full HD". Money talks though

This is one very good thought that I'd like to see expanded on. Is the reason that there is no HD Lite (720p) and Full HD (1080P) a supply/demand/market thing, or a technology thing?

Also, just how bad is the RSX gpu? I'm assuming it is or at least will be a bottle neck in the system, but to what degree? It's kind of silly to put 185 H compound tires on a brand new Vette, but if that's the case, it's really not gonna be that fast of a car.

oilstain

01-05-09, 05:02 PM

Gosh...I don't know anything about processors (or anything else for that matter :) ), so I have no idea if it is possible for that to happen. All I'm saying is that, as a average consumer, if the company tells me that the console is capable of 120 FPS, I shouldn't have to look for spin control.

PSP button issue:http://psp.ign.com/articles/581/581896p1.html

"The weekly magazine questioned Kutaragi about one problem in particular, the case of buttons not returning to their original position when pressed. This is a problem that the magazine itself encountered during an interview with an a high school student who was disappointed with his malfunctioning PSP unit. Kutaragi revealed that Sony Computer Entertainment does consider these button problems to be a manufacturing problem and will repair the systems. Of the current shipped PSP units, SCE has so far repaired 0.6% due to button problems.

However, Kutaragi stresses that many complaints about the system are due to areas that aren't flaws with the system, but are by design. In particular, Kutaragi points to another button issue where for some buttons, the system seems to not respond to button presses. Kutaragi argues that in many cases, users are pushing the buttons left and right and the system isn't registering a response. This is not, according to SCE, a flaw with the system.Kutaragi explained further, taking a bit of time to let us in on how much he loves his new system. "We didn't want to make the screen any smaller than it is, nor did we want to make the PSP system any larger. The position of the buttons were exactly what we aimed for. These are the specifications. This is a product that I made, and these are its specifications. It's not the case that error was a made -- it was all my desire. I think we made the most beautiful thing in the world."

We think Kutaragi is referring to the complaints that question the design of the system rather than the complaints about dead pixels, dust in strange places, ejecting UMDs, occasional crashes and the various other flaws that have been found by a few PSP users so far."

Another article:http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/kutaragi-defends-psp-design-despite-high-defect-rate

"Almost 5,000 PlayStation Portables returned for repair so far, reveals SCE boss
Sony Computer Entertainment boss Ken Kutaragi has defended a design decision in the PlayStation Portable which has led to a high rate of returns for the console, saying that it had a "clear purpose" and "wasn't a mistake".

Speaking with Japanese magazine Nikkei Business, Kutaragi revealed that around 4,800 PlayStation Portables have been returned for repair since the console launched last month - around 0.6 per cent of the shipped units of the system.

The bulk of these repairs have been due to problems with the square button on the handheld, which is less responsive than the others on the fascia due to being too close to the edge of the system's screen.

However, Kutaragi was unapologetic about the design of the console, saying that the button was created in this way on purpose and that users and developers will "have to adapt" to this quirk of the controls.

"I didn't want the PSP's LCD screen to become any smaller than this, nor did I want its machine body to become any larger," he told Nikkei Business. "The button's location is [engineered] on purpose. It's according to specifications. This is something that we've created, and this is our specification. There was a clear purpose to it, and it wasn't a mistake." "

That's pretty funny, sounds like there are two issues with the buttons, and they only want to admit/fix one. If it doesn't come back up after you push it, sorry, we'll fix it. But, if it doesn't go down when you push it, that's not our fault. Though it sounds like they are pointing to user error, i.e. mashing the buttons sideways instead of straight down. Don't have one so, I don't know what the deal is with that. I do know that if the buttons on the PSP aren't as forgiving as the buttons on the PSwhatever controller, people are gonna complain, and in my opinion, the product should have been designed with smoother working buttons. But again, I ain't got one.

number1laing

01-05-09, 05:06 PM

This is one very good thought that I'd like to see expanded on. Is the reason that there is no HD Lite (720p) and Full HD (1080P) a supply/demand/market thing, or a technology thing?

Also, just how bad is the RSX gpu? I'm assuming it is or at least will be a bottle neck in the system, but to what degree? It's kind of silly to put 185 H compound tires on a brand new Vette, but if that's the case, it's really not gonna be that fast of a car.

Definitely the latter, neither system has the power to do the majority of the games in 1080p. But even if the PS3 could and the 360 couldn't, it probably wouldn't happen, because of the first reason. The least common denominator syndrome.

deathindustrial

01-05-09, 05:10 PM

Though it sounds like they are pointing to user error

My read of that quote is that they are talking about users trying to hit left and right at the same time on the D pad which is obviously not going to work with a central pivot rocker design. That's definitely not a bug, that's a reasonable design decision (and a very common one).

Cheers

Martez

01-05-09, 05:55 PM

That's pretty funny, sounds like there are two issues with the buttons, and they only want to admit/fix one. If it doesn't come back up after you push it, sorry, we'll fix it. But, if it doesn't go down when you push it, that's not our fault. Though it sounds like they are pointing to user error, i.e. mashing the buttons sideways instead of straight down. Don't have one so, I don't know what the deal is with that. I do know that if the buttons on the PSP aren't as forgiving as the buttons on the PSwhatever controller, people are gonna complain, and in my opinion, the product should have been designed with smoother working buttons. But again, I ain't got one.

The problem was that because the buttons were so close to the screen, the sensor for the square button was not directly under the button itself, but slightly offset to the right.

_Avarice_

01-05-09, 06:16 PM

It depends on the consumer. Both devices have a core market for sure but where the PC stands out (aside from graphical prowess), at least to me is cheaper software (usually $20 less) and USUALLY free add ons (Portal comes to mind). There are negatives to PCs as well...more complex and you have to keep up with the Jones'.

All that said,, if I could get the graphical power of a high mid-range PC on a console at slightly higher than normal console prices, I'd be very happy.

The point is that, revenue-wise, the PC market is too small to even be considered a competitor with the console gaming market.

CKYRO1

01-05-09, 06:21 PM

I'm not trying to prove anything. Cuco (and CKYRO-sorry man, I forgot to add you as well. My bad.) stated earlier that Sony made claims that proved to be hyperbole; others challenged Cuco (and CKYRO) to show evidence. When Cuco (and CKYRO) do, the evidence is refuted. Cuco (and CKYRO) don't need my help, but I, also am providing evidence that Sony has made claims that were far-reaching and arrogant (remember the first PSP and the square button? Remember Ken's responses?).

I don't have a lack of respect for Sony (although I don't need you to tell me who I do or don't need to respect) and that is not what this branch of the thread is about. This branch of the thread is about whether or not Ken/Sony made claims that amounted to hyperbole. He/they did.

You can defend them if you wish, but the facts remain. That said, what Ken/Sony did or didn't do, said or didn't say, has no bearing on the consumer who purchases the PS3; I don't see any reason to be upset if someone points out the inaccuracies of what some big wig at some company says (unless you are a stock holder and what he says will affect your portfolio).

I'll say it once again in case anyone missed it: I LIKE MY PS3 (in fact I have bought two of them and gave one to my bro). That's about $800-$900 right there, not including games, blu rays, peripherals, PSN purchases etc.

Some of these guys will argue the point no matter what. They'll deny it came from sony unless it was signed and notorized. An article with quotes, and the source just isn't good enough. They probably still believe there are WMD's in Iraq.

flagyl

01-05-09, 07:38 PM

The point is that, revenue-wise, the PC market is too small to even be considered a competitor with the console gaming market.

World of Warcraft?!?!?

Martez

01-05-09, 07:43 PM

World of Warcraft?!?!?

And the Sims.

talbain

01-05-09, 08:44 PM

Will there be a Sony in the future, much less the PS4?

link (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article5446963.ece)

Analysts are never wrong!

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article5446963.ece

the problem is that it's not one or two analysts saying this sort of stuff. it's many, many insiders and a good dose of common sense. sony must fundamentally change their business model or they will die. it's impossible to think about, but it's a real possibility. case in point:

sony released the super powerful ps3 knowing that they would incur massive losses for two reasons. one, because they wanted blu-ray in the home and expected to reap rich rewards from the format, and two, because they knew that any and all losses from their gaming division would be made up in spades in their cash cow television business. add to this the wildly successful ps2 legacy and they were playing with "house money" regarding the ps3. or so they thought...

but then a couple of funny things happened. first, the nintendo wii came along and shocked the world with its sales. ditto (to a lesser extent) the xbox 360. i don't think anyone expected microsoft to be where they are today with that console. then there's blu-ray. sure blu-ray won, but it has not reached anywhere near sony's desired results as the player prices have come down too far (and too fast) and they are just not selling the quantity of software they had hoped. now it's still early in the life of the format, but it has for certain been a disappointment to them so far from a revenue standpoint (a drop in the bucket so to speak).

the second significant thing that happened, and the far more damaging event, was that samsung came along and absolutely handed sony their heads in the television industry. sony, who had been making money hand over fist in their tv division and was enjoying a huge 30+% market leading share, is now bleeding money in the tv division and has been beaten down to also-ran status in the marketplace.

so the end result is that their two biggest revenue streams historically, their tv and videogames divisions, are incurring massive losses, and they have no other divisions anywhere near large enough to generate the revenue required to sustain such a massive company. thus the articles and avs forum posts calling for doom and gloom. i don't know what the future holds for sony and the ps3. but they HAVE to stop bleeding money, at any and all costs. these are interesting times...

confidenceman

01-05-09, 09:41 PM

It doesn't make sense to cut the PS3 now. It's already profitable (or very nearly so, depending on who you listen to). It doesn't matter that it cost Sony an arm and a leg in the past since that money's already been spent. When you're talking about corporate restructuring, you look for where the money is currently bleeding out.

Considering that the PS3 is on the upswing in terms of profitability (despite lackluster sales growth), it'd be silly and irresponsible to cut off support. I've said it many times before in these threads, but here it is again: if the PS3 goes down, it's because Sony as a whole is going down.

bdoyledimou

01-05-09, 10:22 PM

It doesn't make sense to cut the PS3 now. It's already profitable (or very nearly so, depending on who you listen to).

Not profitable, but the bleeding is starting to subside... for the ps3 to be profitable at this point, they would have to make about $100 profit per unit and sell another 20 million units.. just to break even with the $2 Billion they are down right now... at THAT point they can start to claim profitability...

It doesn't mean the PS3 will disappear... but if they don't start making money soon, the shareholders are gonna start to get a bit ... grumpy.

_Avarice_

01-05-09, 10:34 PM

World of Warcraft?!?!?And the Sims.

Are two games, that's correct :confused:

flagyl

01-05-09, 10:41 PM

Are two games, that's correct :confused:

If that's all you know about WoW, then I suggest you read the newspaper more and watch the news.

imdjenk

01-05-09, 10:51 PM

If that's all you know about WoW, then I suggest you read the newspaper more and watch the news.

This is what I know about WoW:

http://forums.tutorialninjas.net/attachments/humor/83d1204064906t-motivational-posters-wow.jpg

kekborg

01-05-09, 10:55 PM

This is what I know about WoW:

http://forums.tutorialninjas.net/attachments/humor/83d1204064906t-motivational-posters-wow.jpg

I just hit a kdr of 1 in WaW. Fun game.

_Avarice_

01-05-09, 10:55 PM

If that's all you know about WoW, then I suggest you read the newspaper more and watch the news.

C'mon, follow the inference. WoW and The Sims do not bridge the substantial gap between console and pc software sales.

Though I must say I don't see either in the news very much? :confused: Obese shut-ins don't usually get a lot of airtime :p Had to, per the picture above!

flagyl

01-05-09, 11:03 PM

C'mon, follow the inference. WoW and The Sims do not bridge the substantial gap between console and pc software sales.

Though I must say I don't see either in the news very much? :confused: Obese shut-ins don't usually get a lot of airtime :p Had to, per the picture above!

The inference was trailed all the way back to the source. I got exactly what you meant, but your post implied that PC sales are small...as I looked for the sales of WoW, I see that it has been breaking all kinds of records. I believe it has made more than $100 million. $100 million. I'd say that was substantial.

PS-You're in Tampa right? http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=DABA4CDE0A7522D51EF4BFB94DC8A9EC?contentId =7740840&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

PPS-That same image and sentiment used to be reserved for people who play videogames.

_Avarice_

01-05-09, 11:28 PM

The inference was trailed all the way back to the source. I got exactly what you meant, but your post implied that PC sales are small...as I looked for the sales of WoW, I see that it has been breaking all kinds of records. I believe it has made more than $100 million. $100 million. I'd say that was substantial.

PS-You're in Tampa right? http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=DABA4CDE0A7522D51EF4BFB94DC8A9EC?contentId =7740840&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

PPS-That same image and sentiment used to be reserved for people who play videogames.

Sure, $100 million is substantial to you & I. But in the scheme of a $7+ billion a year console software industry, it doesn't amount to much.

RE: PPS - yep, but they took it to a whole new level with WoW and paying a monthly fee to escape your real life. They took some of the "nerd" heat off the casual console gamers :D

imdjenk

01-06-09, 12:20 AM

...PS-You're in Tampa right? http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=DABA4CDE0A7522D51EF4BFB94DC8A9EC?contentId =7740840&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

PPS-That same image and sentiment used to be reserved for people who play videogames.

How do you have so much time to google if you have to raid a level 90 dungeon before your mom wakes up and nags you to find a job already?

stupendousman

01-06-09, 12:30 AM

...for the ps3 to be profitable at this point, they would have to make about $100 profit per unit and sell another 20 million units.. just to break even with the $2 Billion they are down right now... at THAT point they can start to claim profitability...

Is that assuming that they make zero profit on software, or do the spreadsheets you've pilfered from Sony have that data as well?

mboojigga

01-06-09, 12:44 AM

Is that assuming that they make zero profit on software, or do the spreadsheets you've pilfered from Sony have that data as well?

HOME is probably using some of that profit from software sales.

slicecom

01-06-09, 01:02 AM

Is that assuming that they make zero profit on software, or do the spreadsheets you've pilfered from Sony have that data as well?

And what about Bluray sales, or winning the HD wars? Can you even put a price on that?

Cynn

01-06-09, 01:28 AM

bdoyledimou

01-06-09, 01:52 AM

Is that assuming that they make zero profit on software, or do the spreadsheets you've pilfered from Sony have that data as well?

Actually, that is generously granting Sony $1 billion in profit from software.
Pilfered spreadsheets? Publicly traded companies have to post their financial results, by division publicly and accurately.

Remember Sony's announcement (http://videogames.yahoo.com/feature/sony-has-lost-over-3-billion-on-the-ps3/1223467) back in June of 2008 ..

They reported that they had lost $3 billion in R&D manufacturing and channel costs on the PS3 alone.

Since they still haven't started earning money on the hardware (although they are getting there), and factoring in $1 billion income on software (both games and BD movie sales) they still have to make up the $2 billion, which supports my numbers, and even my numbers are generous.. how long do you think it will take Sony to start making $100 profits per machine? or even $50, or $5...

With the current attach rate of PS3 software reported around 5 titles to a machine, and providing Sony with (yet another generous) 25% of the software revenue from a sale) they are still just breaking even..if not losing cash... and even if they manage to break even, they are not recovering the previous loss.

Profit happens after after ALL expenses are paid, not just the convenient ones.

Maybe i am missing something though.. what do the magic spreadsheets you have folded over back and forth back and forth say?

confidenceman

01-06-09, 05:42 AM

Not profitable, but the bleeding is starting to subside... for the ps3 to be profitable at this point, they would have to make about $100 profit per unit and sell another 20 million units.. just to break even with the $2 Billion they are down right now... at THAT point they can start to claim profitability...The distinction is between net and gross profit, and the difference matters a lot to Sony at the moment.

For example:

Imagine you decide to invest in a twinkie machine. You had to borrow against your mortgage to get it but you're pretty confident in what you're doing since you've done quite well with hohos in the past. You try selling your twinkies and do okay, but nowhere near enough to see a full return on your initial big investment.

After a couple of years of trying to get your twinkies into the market, you realize you're not going to be able to pay off that second mortgage anytime soon. However, the twinkies that are selling are finally paying for themselves and you think you'll be able to start making a profit (gross) in a month or two.

Meanwhile, your perennial Suzy Q business isn't doing so hot. You can't take out another loan to get it back into shape because you borrowed so much to get your twinkie business off the ground. To top it off, your twinkie business is still operating at a slight loss.

Here's the rub: what do you do? Your twinkies are about to start making money, but you know you could liquidate twinkie production to possibly get your Suzy Q business back on track. But demand for Suzy Qs just isn't what it was a couple years ago. The market might improve, but there's no guarantee.

Lesson: A wise person would keep making twinkies. Even though they're a big reason why you're in this dire situation in the first place, they're also what will keep you afloat.

Point being that I still think that the PS3's only going down if Sony as a whole does.

cuco33

01-06-09, 06:53 AM

Sony aren't the only ones in the BDA. They don't take home 100% from Blu sales and people keep forgetting that. They are a major player though. It's clear they took a hit, much bigger than expected, to push the media format on their next gen console. All is well though. But if it weren't for the Playstation brand's prior success there is absolutely no way the shareholders or the board would ever attempt what they did. The question now is can Sony take the PS3 out the gutter, which I think over time they will.

cuco33

01-06-09, 07:02 AM

Some of these guys will argue the point no matter what. They'll deny it came from sony unless it was signed and notorized. An article with quotes, and the source just isn't good enough. They probably still believe there are WMD's in Iraq.

You can keep thinking all is fine in Sony land. I'll let the financials speak for themselves. I'm not one to look at sales figures much but there's a reason why major exclusives like Tekken, FF series, etc have went multiplatform. And #1 reason to own a game console is for the exclusives. Sony's fine. I think the PS3 will remain in 3rd place and that's not bad. Some make it out to be bigger than what it is while others downplay the events as if they are nothing. I own all consoles so I have access to all games but not everyone will. C'est la vie. MANY promises referenced they did go back on from the get go. Those perfectly OK with it will be the fans who defend at no expense, those not OK with it either hate the choice made (i.e. me) or are just Sony haters in general (i.e. trolls)

cuco33

01-06-09, 07:06 AM

It wouldn't matter if PC were capable of 1000fps, it'd still be no competition for any of the consoles. Consoles have zero need to keep up with PC.

Agreed for the most part. PC gaming has been in decline for awhile. There are many things that consoles have learned from the PC and still more they can learn in my book. I'm not talking graphically either. The best racing sims are on PC, the best custom features in games are on PC, etc. But I agree that consoles are in their own market and don't need to compete or keep up with PCs in general

stupendousman

01-06-09, 07:12 AM

Since they still haven't started earning money on the hardware (although they are getting there), and factoring in $1 billion income on software (both games and BD movie sales) they still have to make up the $2 billion, which supports my numbers, and even my numbers are generous.. how long do you think it will take Sony to start making $100 profits per machine? or even $50, or $5...

$1 billion in two years, with a market started from zero. If you're assumptions are correct, they should likely erase the R&D deficit in another 2 or 3 years I'd imagine while breaking even or profiting from the consoles before then. BR won the war and is now starting to sell in much greater quantities then it did even a year ago. With each new PS3 sold, you get another customer for the games.

Like I said before, I'm sure Sony would like for things to move faster, but I'm pretty sure that when they decided to go "high end", they had a more long-term strategy. All that really matters is that in the end, they aren't going to be losing any money and they've got the road to profit paved.

With the current attach rate of PS3 software reported around 5 titles to a machine, and providing Sony with (yet another generous) 25% of the software revenue from a sale) they are still just breaking even..if not losing cash... and even if they manage to break even, they are not recovering the previous loss.

They are just about breaking even on the sale of each console. They profit on each and every piece of software they sell. If they can make 1 billion in 2 years starting the hardware market with a base of zero, it's likely they can make up the addition 2 billion within another couple of years with an expanded hardware base at which time they are profiting on both the consoles and software. It's not rocket science.

bassmonkeee

01-06-09, 08:24 AM

And #1 reason to own a game console is for the exclusives.

It might be the #1 reason for you, but for me, it's not. I bought a PS3 for a) the games available, and b) blu-ray movies.
Whether a game is exclusive to my system of choice has no bearing on anything.

oilstain

01-06-09, 11:02 AM

It might be the #1 reason for you, but for me, it's not. I bought a PS3 for a) the games available, and b) blu-ray movies.
Whether a game is exclusive to my system of choice has no bearing on anything.

Does not compute.

"#1 reason to own a game console is for the exclusives."
"I bought a PS3 for a) the games available"

Are you saying that the available games don't include the exclusives? Because, as you wrote it, the games available had a direct bearing on your decision.

Or were you really trying to say that the BD player was what influenced you to go with PS3?

number1laing

01-06-09, 11:07 AM

PS3 is going to be alright. It's not going anywhere, and Sony will keep making sure it has good games on it at least for the forseeable future. The problem is the implications Sony's restructuring and such have for the PS4. Let's be real here, no matter what happens from here on out the PS3 has been a disaster for Sony. Sony simply cannot afford another disaster of a gaming console. I bet Kaz is lobbying Stringer pretty damn hard because he was put in to stop the bleeding and turn this system into a winner, and he has done incredible work on that front IMO. But his future paychecks rely on making sure the gaming division is once again strong enough to release a PS4. As of right now I wouldn't be surprised if Stringer was looking at it long and hard...

mboojigga

01-06-09, 11:28 AM

With each new PS3 sold, you get another customer for the games.

Not every PS3 sold is being bought for games. Been that way since launch.

mboojigga

01-06-09, 11:31 AM

Or were you really trying to say that the BD player was what influenced you to go with PS3?

Are you unaware that some people have actually bought the PS3 either as a game console only, BD player only, or both?

bassmonkeee

01-06-09, 11:44 AM

Does not compute.

"#1 reason to own a game console is for the exclusives."
"I bought a PS3 for a) the games available"

Are you saying that the available games don't include the exclusives? Because, as you wrote it, the games available had a direct bearing on your decision.

Or were you really trying to say that the BD player was what influenced you to go with PS3?

How does it not compute? I bought a PS3 because of the games available for the system, regardless of exclusivity, and for the ability to play Blu-Ray movies. Don't assume because I put the games first that they are the #1 reason. Playing Blu-Ray movies was certainly a contributing factor, but it certainly wasn't the main reason, either.

I hate the 360 controller, I don't like paying for online multiplayer, etc.

I certainly wouldn't rank the reasons I went with a PS3. They all simply lead to one outcome.

cuco33

01-06-09, 11:54 AM

It might be the #1 reason for you, but for me, it's not. I bought a PS3 for a) the games available, and b) blu-ray movies.
Whether a game is exclusive to my system of choice has no bearing on anything.

Well this current gen is a tad different to the history of game consoles as they now do more than just gaming but EVERY OTHER generation, the reason to buy a game console was for the games (i.e. your part A which if you bought it at launch was limited to a handful of decent titles). Bluray was another big bonus for myself to get a PS3 on top of the exclusives but if stand alone players were abundant and cheap, I wouldn't be using my PS3 for Bluray today (at least not as my main player).

Let's not kid ourselves though guys, we know that some, as in relatively few people bought PS3 solely and specifically for Bluray and most for the games. Proof was there during the format war with 2:1 sales lead and over 10x the players. The PS3 (as well as 360) do have extra features that might entice new buyers to the system (wireless streaming capabilities got 2 of my buddies hooked, neither care for Bluray and both aren't that big of gamers). But the biggest reason someone buys a console is for gaming.

We'll just see how many software units GT5 sells and how many PS3s get sold because of it, then make a comparison to hardware sold during major Bluray releases. Hell look at MGS4's launch, it moved a decent amount of PS3s, but what about major Blurays? Not so much... I think only then will people realize that Bluray is more of a bonus feature to the console in the long run than it is a major selling point (as it was when it was the only worthy Bluray player on the market ;) ) which reminds me, and I know I say this all too many times... I WANT GT5 NOW GODAMNIT!!!!!