I am a front projection noob and am doing research on fp vs. a large LCD/plasma for a theater space in a finished basement.

I will be gaming on whatever device goes in this space in addition to movie watching. I currently have a 42" Oleiva LCD that I do HD gaming on with a PS3 and an Xbox 360. It's a fantastic experience.

If I move to front projection for my gaming, are there any disadvantages? Are there any lag issues I need to worry about? How about text clarity on games where you're reading dialog/instructions/etc..? Or text clarity from the console's dashboard? How about 720p vs. 1080p at a viewing distance of about 1.8x the diagonal screen width? LCD vs. DLP projectors and gaming?

I'm concerned that the crystal clear clarity I get on my LCD will be a thing of the past with a projector.

I'd like to hear from other gamers who have projectors and what your experiences have been.

Thanks!

I game all the time on my dlp mitsu hc 1500. Thing is sick! You might get some more clarity for FPS long range shots with an LCD tv, but have some friends over and see what they prefer. I guarantee you it won't be the tv

Imo, the only disadvantage is you have to control the lights. Other than that, no. I am using my PS3 on a 106" screen. It looks, well, awesome!

The only disadvantage I can think of is that every time I play on a front projector I'm so amazed at the whole experience, that I can't really concentrate during multiplayer games and tend to get worser results :D

I had the Mits. HD1000 and now the HC1500. No issues what-so-ever. You can imagine Gears of War at 100"+ with 720P or 1080i. I just don't have the funds for a 1080p projector. 720p/1080i looks amazing enough, right now.

Here are 2 pics of how bright the Mits. HD1000 is in "low lamp mode" in ambient light. So Standard lamp mode would even be brighter! One is a TV show and the other an Xbox 360 game. Can't remember the game at this point. Keep in mind that it looks **MUCH** better in person because this was shot with a CHEAP, whimpy resolution digital camera and I'm not even hooked up with HDMI

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/shawntmartin/l_519c50be883033950e05448cfeaf6ddd.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/shawntmartin/basement.jpg

I can't think of any. I game on a 97" screen with my Epson 400 and sometimes you have to adjust the colors to see in really dark games. Although I've done that on regular TVs as well. It seems like every game maker has there own ideas about what a normal TV is set to color/brightness wise. I've been playing Fallout 3 a ton (PS3) and have had zero problems reading the text. I think bang for your buck wise, projectors are the best deal out there (gaming + blu ray). I haven't been able to compare 720p to 1080p but 720 looks pretty darn sharp.

The Panasonic PT-AX200U has a specific gaming mode that reduces lag and increases brightness. With this gaming mode, having some ambient light in the room is not as much of an issue as with some other projectors.

It's not as crystal clear as a standard LCD TV though, because it has a Smooth Screen feature that is meant to eliminate screen door effect if you sit up close. It does work as advertised (and I think it's beneficial in a 720p projector), but the side effect is very slight blurrification.

Even with that though, it's still way, way nicer to game on that thing than a 42" LCD.

"It's not as crystal clear as a standard LCD TV though"

If you blew up that 42"LCD image to 106" I'll bet the projector would look as good if not better. All in all... 100" of gaming on a 720p projector is way more fun &more exciting. I think you'll agree.

"It's not as crystal clear as a standard LCD TV though"

If you blew up that 42"LCD image to 106" I'll bet the projector would look as good if not better. All in all... 100" of gaming on a 720p projector is way more fun &more exciting. I think you'll agree.
You didn't quote the rest of that paragraph from my post:

"because it has a Smooth Screen feature that is meant to eliminate screen door effect if you sit up close. It does work as advertised (and I think it's beneficial in a 720p projector), but the side effect is very slight blurrification."

Other projectors are slightly more 'crystal clear', because they do not have this Smooth Screen feature that my Panasonic PT-AX200U has. However, the drawback with many other 720p LCD projectors is quite obvious screen door effect if you sit relatively close to the screen. A seating distance of 1.8X screen width is not a problem, but it is a problem with some 720p projectors at say 1.2X screen width. I happen to sit at 1.2X screen width.

http://www.hifi-writer.com/he/video/screendoor.jpg

That image illustrates what defocusing does, and Smooth Screen is a method of doing that. However, it seems to me that Smooth Screen's method (whatever that is) works better than simply turning the focusing knob on other projectors, although I must admit that my experience with other projectors isn't extensive.

The other drawback of some other projectors is no gaming mode. For most people, the inherent lag of video processing isn't a big deal, but the hardcore gamers sometimes complain about it. They complain much less about the PT-AX200U because the gaming mode reduces video processing to reduce lag, and it also increases brightness to compensate for ambient room light. A lot of gamers don't like gaming in complete darkness, but you often need a very bright projector to game with some ambient light.

I was talking about the LCD tv only. If you blew it up to 106 I think your projector would be sharper regardless of the gaming mode.

I posted some pics a few posts ago...just to show the brightness in ambient light in low lamp mode.. I can keep the lights pretty well lit . I haven't had any lag effect that I can tell when playing the Xbox360 . Screen door effect doesn't exist for me at 8-10ft. So I guess it just depends on what projector you have when gaming. The Mits, has done me good.

I was talking about the LCD tv only. If you blew it up to 106 I think your projector would be sharper regardless of the gaming mode.
Actually, I doubt it. Remember, an LCD projector has a tiny, tiny LCD in it. By comparison, the pixels in an LCD TV are huge. If somehow you could manage to blow up a 42" LCD to 106", IMO the image would probably be sharper. Too bad the lens would probably cost a million bux. :p

I posted some pics a few posts ago...just to show the brightness in ambient light in low lamp mode.. I can keep the lights pretty well lit . I haven't had any lag effect that I can tell when playing the Xbox360 . Screen door effect doesn't exist for me at 8-10ft. So I guess it just depends on what projector you have when gaming. The Mits, has done me good.
1) I agree, lag is very person dependent. Some projectors are better than others, and some people are more sensitive than others. I don't find the Panasonic PT-AX200U to be laggy in normal modes compared to average, but the gaming mode reduces lag even further.

2) The same goes for screen door effect. Some projectors are worse than others, and some people are more sensitive to it than others. For me however, screen door effect drives me up the wall.

3) The same goes for ambient light. It is more problematic with some projectors and some people.

Thus, for a gaming geek buying front projection specifically to spend a LOT of time gaming on it, I would advise him or her to seriously consider a gaming projector.

How about if you did the opposite. Instead of blowing up the 42", how about decrease the projector to 42". Still think it would be less sharp? Just curious.

Actually, I doubt it. Remember, an LCD projector has a tiny, tiny LCD in it. By comparison, the pixels in an LCD TV are huge. If somehow you could manage to blow up a 42" LCD to 106", IMO the image would probably be sharper. Too bad the lens would probably cost a million bux. :p
It would be more blurry. The larger surface area of the larger lcd would make for non-uniform focus. That is the reason they started using the smallest panels they could in projectors, as it allowed the whole panel to be in focus.

How about if you did the opposite. Instead of blowing up the 42", how about decrease the projector to 42". Still think it would be less sharp? Just curious.
Yup. Well, it's pretty close though. I've tried it with a business projector. However, see below re: business projectors vs. home theatre projectors. Plus, you don't have to fiddle with an LCD TV to have it be sharp. With a projector you have to make sure your lens is top notch, it's at its best zoom length for image quality, and it's not off kilter.

But we're just talking useless theory anyway. :)

I agree with the others that gaming on a good projector image is glorious.

It would be more blurry. The larger surface area of the larger lcd would make for non-uniform focus. That is the reason they started using the smallest panels they could in projectors, as it allowed the whole panel to be in focus.
Heh. That's why I said the lens would be a million bux (and that's being conservative). ;) It would have to be ginormous, and have perfectly contoured elements.

BTW, many lower end projectors with significant zooms really don't have very good lenses. If you actually display text for image testing, you'll often see lack of 100% planar focus as well as corner softness even in a properly focused image. This is VERY common in projector lenses in the sub $1500 price range. I've often said in other threads that I'd rather have an expensive 720p projector with a good zoom lens than similarly priced 1080p projector with lower grade lens. One analogy would be a digital SLR with a low end consumer zoom lens, vs. a pro zoom lens (eg. Canon L class) in the same zoom range. The pro lens is usually noticeably sharper, especially at the corners.

Low cost business projectors often have much better lenses than low cost home theatre projectors, because focus and brightness are key for business projectors. For lower end home theatre projectors, lens quality is considered a secondary concern (unfortunately).

But I will reiterate that I think projector gaming is awesome. Any minor sharpness issues that can be introduced by consumer grade front projection is completely eclipsed by the other benefits of front projection gaming. In fact, I consider sharpness much less of an issue for gaming than ambient light.

increased booze consumption and less social interaction.

another con nobody has listed is when you get use to playing on a 90"+ screen you will no longer be able to play on anythin smaller than 50".. Found that to be a problem with me. So once you go BIG you'll never go back!

Reason why Panny has a gaming mode is due to their style of signal processing, it introduces some lag which is not as much obvious in other PJ's and hence why they came up with the "Game mode" to reduce this lag. Of course, based on their marketing, one would think the AX200 is the best PJ for gaming (the brightness does work really well though) but in reality, they are hiding up their own introduced flaw. Notice on the their 1080p models, they have removed the game mode as the signal processing mechanics are now different.

I have a VP4001 720p DLP PJ and I've haven't noticed ANY lag whatsoever...tested this with CoD4, Guitar Hero and several other fast paced games that make lag noticable. I also sometimes play PC games on my HTPC and haven't noticed any lag either.

Some random shots off my 360/PS3 on my 120" screen. But with a front PJ, u do see the outcomes of low textures or resolutions as the image is much more detailed so you will see the flaws as well. This is obvious in the CoD5 jungle shot which shows the aging CoD4 engine is hitting its peak. On a smaller display, you won't really notice such things but when the image is stretched out on a massive screen (100" plus), you can easily tell the limitations of 720p (or less) GFX and the necessity of 1080p native rendered games. For me, MGSIV was one of the most sharpest, cleanest games I've ever seen on my PJ. If u properly calibrate your PJ, then text will be razor sharp.

And like others have said....once u go with front projection gaming, there's no turning back!! I still find it amusing when some of my gaming friends come over for COD/Madden sessions and still cant get over gaming on a 120" display from 10 feet away!! Priceless.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8199/screen015un0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/screen015un0.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img258/screen015un0.jpg/1/)

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/2198/screen012jq7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/screen012jq7.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img258/screen012jq7.jpg/1/)

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/9849/asscreedvv0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/asscreedvv0.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img167/asscreedvv0.jpg/1/)

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4726/pjshots002fe2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/pjshots002fe2.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img167/pjshots002fe2.jpg/1/)

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1654/ps3ru4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/ps3ru4.jpg/1/w1010.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img141/ps3ru4.jpg/1/)

Reason why Panny has a gaming mode is due to their style of signal processing, it introduces some lag which is not as much obvious in other PJ's and hence why they came up with the "Game mode" to reduce this lag. Of course, based on their marketing, one would think the AX200 is the best PJ for gaming (the brightness does work really well though) but in reality, they are hiding up their own introduced flaw. Notice on the their 1080p models, they have removed the game mode as the signal processing mechanics are now different.
I could be wrong, but their 1080p models have never had a game mode IIRC.

Anyways, what you say may very well be true, but in my probably more limited experience, I find the Panny -without game mode activated- does at least as well as most other LCD TVs in terms of speed. It is definitely faster even in non-gaming mode than some LCD TVs I've tried. My Toshiba HD CRT was the fastest though.

All I can add to this is that occasionally, in games like Gears of War, the moving camera effect can be disorienting and even a little nauseating, if you're not playing with a clear head (and who plays video games with a clear head?). However, the sheer immersion factor is (for me, anyway) MUCH more important than having a marginally sharper - but utterly smaller - image. I'd have a hard time going back to playing on a TV, that's for damn sure.

Frag, I am not a gamer, but last night I decided to try COD5 on my 106" screen. I suck at the game and I just about made myself motion sick. Since this is new to me rather than sit back and relax, I sat on the very front edge of the couch and leaned forward. I did not pay attention to how close I was to the screen. Today I measured the viewing distance and my eyes were 7-6" from the screen. I am going to try it again at my normal 11' to 11'-6" viewing distance. Do you or your friends ever have anything like this happen to you? Is it worse for me because I am not very smooth moving about?

Thanks everyone for the input! It certainly sounds like I won't be displeased with gaming on the big screen!

Along the lines of my clarity question however, how useable is an HTPC with a front projector? i.e. can I actually expect to be able to read 1900x1080 resolution computer screen?

I have several friends with rear projection sets where the interface of an HTPC is absolutely unusable (way too blurry).

It depends on the person but the only possible caveat to front projection (as mjg100 referred to) is the potential for motion sickness. My screen is a little smaller than most people's I think (77" screen from about 12') but any bigger would be too much for me.

I rarely have a problem with motion sickness but the odd time I do experience problems with the Call of Duty games. Oh, and doing barrel rolls in Crimson Skies = :eek: Haha.

Thanks everyone for the input! It certainly sounds like I won't be displeased with gaming on the big screen!

Along the lines of my clarity question however, how useable is an HTPC with a front projector? i.e. can I actually expect to be able to read 1900x1080 resolution computer screen?

I have several friends with rear projection sets where the interface of an HTPC is absolutely unusable (way too blurry).


I recline in a soft leather recliner with a cold beer next to me and a quilt on my legs. Approx. 13' from a 96" Screen. I strap on a set of SE-DIR800C Pioneer wireless cans and immerse myself in the games environment.

Yes there are tense moments in some games, but mostly it's a very relaxing experience. FP Gaming is my favorite daily activity. I look forward to the sun going down. Movies off the popcorn hour in HD ain't too shabby either.

:D

My nephew came over to play Gears of War and he got a bit nauseated with my 90" screen. After the first night though, he was fine.

Now if they could just make the Wii HD. I love playing Tiger Woods 09 in front of the screen, but I wish the graphics were better. Xbox360/PS3 graphics with the Wii's motion controls. Maybe next time.

I play Soul Caliber, Army of Two, and Gears of War on my 52" LCD and on my AX200 on a 100" screen. No lag time noted and I'm equally deadly on all.

The only downside to gaming with a projector is your friends will not go home!!!

I play a ton of COD and Madden, I have a 42" HDTV, but I play on the "Big screen", there is nothing like it, that, along with a nice surround sound is incredible!! I will never forget the day I fired up the PJ for the first time, I thought I was going to be disappointed because I bought a "Cheap" PJ since I was new to it (HC1500) but I honestly could not be happier, games, movies, sporting events, there is nothing like it!!

Thanks everyone for the input! It certainly sounds like I won't be displeased with gaming on the big screen!

Along the lines of my clarity question however, how useable is an HTPC with a front projector? i.e. can I actually expect to be able to read 1900x1080 resolution computer screen?

I have several friends with rear projection sets where the interface of an HTPC is absolutely unusable (way too blurry).


I can speak to this specific to my AX200. I've posted a couple other threads on this topic, and the answer is you will be dissapointed in looking at the computer desktop environment. Text and sharp lines are very soft looking compared to my 26" Planar LCD computer monitor. But video and photos look just as amazing comming from my computer, as they do comming from my PS3 on the AX200. Infact they look better on the AX200 than on my computer monitor, which is simply too sharp for my taste for video.

To be more specific, it's hard to read emails, internet pages, or anything else text based on the PJ as the text is simply too soft looking. But the reason I got this PJ was because I was looking for a "film like" soft and clear image. The AX200 is just that. I used to be a projectionist at, and managed, several movie theaters about 10 years ago. The only thing that the AX200 lacks for me, is there is no platter system that I get to thread film up through it. :D Other than that, it nearly completely satisfies my hunger for "the old days" of being "at work" watching the real thing. :)

Other PJ's w/o the Smooth Screen technology will probably look a bit sharper, however with the screen door problem. BUT... with those PJ's you can simply soft focus the lense a bit to reduce the screen door affect.

In regards to Panasonic's Smooth Screen... it appears based on my projector, they simply mis-aligned the 3 lcd panels to soften the pixel edges. Which, really is probably the same end result as de-focusing the lense a slight bit. I've formed a bit of a sarcastic attitude towards the smooth screen feature, although it has not changed that I am very happy with the picture that the projector prodcues.

Different jobs require different tools.

another con nobody has listed is when you get use to playing on a 90"+ screen you will no longer be able to play on anythin smaller than 50".. Found that to be a problem with me. So once you go BIG you'll never go back!

I'm not much of a gamer, but I had a friend bring over his 360. Playing on multiplayer, we each had our own 42" screens.

BTW, if you're running a 720p projector, obviously 1920x1080 computer text will look like garbage. You need to run the proper resolution of course.

My 120" desktop (desktop set to 1280X720 on HDMI, overscan turned off as I found the 'blurry text' was the overscan causing it). Now I get a pixel to pixel map and desktop at 720p is razor sharp. I've been using my HTPC primarily on my PJ for several months and I do not have any issues with text. I did till I realized it was the overscan settings on the PJ (on HDMI port) that was the culprit. I detailed this in the VP4001 owners thread also. My PJ also has a VGA port after doing comparisons between HDMI and VGA, HDMI is the way to go to get clear text.

Note whatever blur is in the shot is a result of not using a tripot when I took the shot.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7404/desktopjm8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/desktopjm8.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img229/desktopjm8.jpg/1/)

My 120" desktop (desktop set to 1280X720 on HDMI, overscan turned off as I found the 'blurry text' was the overscan causing it). Now I get a pixel to pixel map and desktop at 720p is razor sharp. I've been using my HTPC primarily on my PJ for several months and I do not have any issues with text. I did till I realized it was the overscan settings on the PJ (on HDMI port) that was the culprit. I detailed this in the VP4001 owners thread also. My PJ also has a VGA port after doing comparisons between HDMI and VGA, HDMI is the way to go to get clear text.

Note whatever blur is in the shot is a result of not using a tripot when I took the shot.
Yeah, be sure to turn off overscan people when displaying computer text. :p And of course, use the native resolution. You may need to add a custom resolution to your computer. At least with mine... my computer recognizes the projector as 800x600 or 1024x768, but didn't 'see' its ability to do 1280x720.

P.S. I don't actually use a computer for much on my projector, but I find loading up a full screen's worth of text is the best way to get the projector properly focused when necessary (esp. when first installing the thing).

I play Halo 3, Gears 2, and CoD4 mostly and have noticed no drop in my game when playing on a Epson HC 720 with a 110" screen compared to my 22" blazing fast refresh rate monitor.....I still run around screaming "YOUSA GONNA DIE MEESA TINKS!!!".......

BTW, if you're running a 720p projector, obviously 1920x1080 computer text will look like garbage. You need to run the proper resolution of course.

Honestly... that doesn't make much difference on my PJ. Other than obviously, everything being much smaller at 1080p. Text is still very soft. I also have overscan set at zero, and for me, that made no difference.

The problem for me, is the LCD panels are every so slightly out of alignment. I can see it quite clearly if I put my face right up on the screen, looking at white text. On side of the text has a blurry blue edge, the other has a blurry red edge. From reading other posts, it seems this is common for the AX200.

I am a little dissapointed with this, however as I said before I am still very happy with the PJ for it's intended purpose... movies. It's just not as razor sharp as it probably could be. Which, honestly I don't think I'd want "that" razor sharp anyways for movies.

Honestly... that doesn't make much difference on my PJ. Other than obviously, everything being much smaller at 1080p. Text is still very soft. I also have overscan set at zero, and for me, that made no difference.

The problem for me, is the LCD panels are every so slightly out of alignment. I can see it quite clearly if I put my face right up on the screen, looking at white text. On side of the text has a blurry blue edge, the other has a blurry red edge. From reading other posts, it seems this is common for the AX200.

I am a little dissapointed with this, however as I said before I am still very happy with the PJ for it's intended purpose... movies. It's just not as razor sharp as it probably could be. Which, honestly I don't think I'd want "that" razor sharp anyways for movies.

U looking at convergence issues which are associated with LCD PJ's.....I'm glad mine is DLP :) ...and no, I don't see any RBE either.

The problem for me, is the LCD panels are every so slightly out of alignment. I can see it quite clearly if I put my face right up on the screen, looking at white text. On side of the text has a blurry blue edge, the other has a blurry red edge. From reading other posts, it seems this is common for the AX200.
In addition, could also be:

1) Smooth Screen
2) Chromatic aberration

In addition, could also be:

1) Smooth Screen
2) Chromatic aberration

for sure these are also playing a part. Infact I am tempted to think that all Panny did was slightly mis-align the 3 panels, which softens the pixel edges by expanding out one color from one pixel, into another color of the next... and give it a fancy name and a patent. :D That combined with cheep glass in the optics...

I am prone to blame it purely on the Smooth Screen, or convergence problems. Whatever is more to blame, I'm not sure.

Also another problem I have is that my computer monitors are more medium-high end for photo editing. They are vastly better looking than the standard TN panels most folks have for LCD monitors. As such, there is a much larger difference for me between what the computer monitor looks like, and what the PJ looks like. Infact, my main display monitor is actually too sharp imo for photo editing. So that also plays a small part why text looks soft to me on the PJ.

UPDATE:

Not only does Overscan affect image quality from a computer, but also Keystone. (As I'm sure most already know.)

Last night in verifying I had overscan at zero (wow, turning it up DOES make it look bad...) I also discovered that -2 keystone was also making my text look a little soft. At zero text looks much better, although the downside is, due to placement of PJ, the bottom of the image is slightly wider than the top. I only really nottice however with 4:3 content with letter boxes on the side. Otherwise my black border masks it.

Text still looks a bit soft compared to my computer monitors, however it's much more readable now. Except for the bottom right corner, which is always out of focus. lol But thats purely a matter of being at the wide end of the zoom, due to the right corner being further away from the lense than the rest of the screen.

My nephew came over to play Gears of War and he got a bit nauseated with my 90" screen. After the first night though, he was fine.

Ha! When I first got my HD65 I was playing Gears and my mom stopped over, but since she hadn't seen my projector yet she told me to keep playing so she could check it out. She had to leave the room because she thought she was going to be sick :D

Gaming at 100" is flippin awesome, you won't be disappointed.