Curious on peoples opinions on the above. I heard two of these subs at my work place playing some recorded music and they absolutely blast bass, more than what my SVS PB-13 ultra is capable of . How would they sound in a home audio set up? I understand the lowest note they play is about 35 Hz or so but that's fine for most music? How would one of the proper PA subs sound in conjunction with my SVS taking over the lower bass?

Curious on peoples opinions on the above. I heard two of these subs at my work place playing some recorded music and they absolutely blast bass, more than what my SVS PB-13 ultra is capable of . How would they sound in a home audio set up? I understand the lowest note they play is about 35 Hz or so but that's fine for most music? How would one of the proper PA subs sound in conjunction with my SVS taking over the lower bass?

Like dynamite mate like dynamite I mean lets face facts shall we most of all movies are mixed on JBL nearly all cinemas worldwide use JBL and you’re asking this question, 20 years ago forums like this never existed and I didn’t need to ask what speaker system I knew there can only be one. (JBL was at the birth of the talkies 1927 The Jazz Singer) and you can bet you’ll never see SVS behind a cinema screen or in the top dubbing theatres in or around the world, unless it’s someone’s basement dubbing theatre in and old disused missile cylo for extra sound proof.

Like dynamite mate like dynamite I mean lets face facts shall we most of all movies are mixed on JBL nearly all cinemas worldwide use JBL and you’re asking this question, 20 years ago forums like this never existed and I didn’t need to ask what speaker system I knew there can only be one. (JBL was at the birth of the talkies 1927 The Jazz Singer) and you can bet you’ll never see SVS behind a cinema screen or in the top dubbing theatres in or around the world, unless it’s someone’s basement dubbing theatre in and old disused missile cylo for extra sound proof.



Of course you're not biased towards JBL!:rolleyes: I always wanted a pair of L 100's. By the time I was earning enough money to buy JBL they were discontinued. I did buy my GF for Christmas an I pod docking station with the JBL logo on it, does that count?:D

Curious on peoples opinions on the above. I heard two of these subs at my work place playing some recorded music and they absolutely blast bass, more than what my SVS PB-13 ultra is capable of . How would they sound in a home audio set up? I understand the lowest note they play is about 35 Hz or so but that's fine for most music? How would one of the proper PA subs sound in conjunction with my SVS taking over the lower bass?

I have a Madison M1-218 which is 2)18" pro drivers in a 13 cubic foot ported box with high sensitivity. It has output galore but does roll off around 25hz or so. I'm sure output would be similar to the JBLs so I would think the SVS would have problems keeping up.

What kind of music will you be listening to? Even for music, there are different stuff even in the pro arena. It may make a difference. But generally you have 2 routes here to take, get a active pro sub or passive + amp, or another PB13U. Not sure what are the costs over in Aussie, so you gotta do your Math. :)

Typically metal. Could also look at the JBL Pro cinema subs which extend to 25 Hz. I just don't seem to get that kick in the gut that you usually get with PA systems. This is a path way which I may want to pursue with my audio system in the future, going all pro audio. I can get hold of JBL Pro cinema gear from my work place easily enough. I have pushed my audio system to its limits even in a 3000 cubic foot room with fairly large amplifiers and am looking for the next step to take. Is this plausible?

Typically metal. Could also look at the JBL Pro cinema subs which extend to 25 Hz. I just don't seem to get that kick in the gut that you usually get with PA systems. This is a path way which I may want to pursue with my audio system in the future, going all pro audio. I can get hold of JBL Pro cinema gear from my work place easily enough. I have pushed my audio system to its limits even in a 3000 cubic foot room with fairly large amplifiers and am looking for the next step to take. Is this plausible?

It’s doable.

Look for Australian cinema supplier’s down-under mate, should find a few that have reconditioned JBL cinema pro, going on the cheap side and that’s a good sign.

You’re room is only what 1.5, 2.4 times larger than mine and I’ve attended one heck of an awesome JBL cinema in the UK, at London’s famous Empire Leicester Square, and the JBL sound has never disappointed unless it’s a buggered up film print in which case that’s a different matter.

25Hz is plenty enough with a few JBL 4645C in that room, if the Empire can do it with x16 subs and they need x16 to go beyond the most rumbling soundtracks at high levels while reproducing wide uniformly smooth frequency response when the LFE.1 track cuts in. or if it was (Dolby stereo optical A or SR) the sub bass extension module will be activated at the push of the Dolby format button and reroute the low end to the subs and it sounds fantastic.


Visit this thread
The Empire Leicester Square screen 1 a JBL installation, West End London United Kingdom
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1028209

The sub bass array is 13 feet across and just wee bit over 8 feet high 20KW and most don’t have that size on this site, unless they are the Empire! LOL The Empire Strikes Back! LOL

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/EmpireLeicesterSquare3417/288071.jpg

http://www.ltt-versand.de/shop/images/jbl_4645c_404x595.jpg

Again, “it’s doable”.;)

Though JBL is a great icon (I think HK made them to consumerized) they have slipped somewhat. Again I say somewhat.

I would beg to differ re: the "pro" world. I think the likes of Adams, Genelec, Dynacoutics, Meyer, Tannoy, ATC, EAW and Klipsch have given them a run for the money in the live, studio and cinema markets the past 10 years.

That is not saying JBL is any more or less a product.

Give me a sec to get the flame proof suit on...

Does anyone sell just the JBL driver? I might be in the mood for one for a homebrew midbass module.

I have used many different types of subs. I think once you reach a certain level of bass quality the sound becomes more alike than different. Good quality bass is good quality bass. The big difference is between extension and power. I have owned SVS subs, the best being 3 16-46cs+ cylinders(Have not heard the ultra), M&K subs(many but their best was the MX-5000), klipsch THX ultra 2 subs, the madison pro subs previously mentioned, and now DIY 18 inch ported and sealed subs. My favorite were a combination of both. The sound and power of the pro subs were just amazing and made me realize what reference levels were all about without compression. The 3 SVS cylinders and Klipsch subs made me realize what extension was about so I thought. The SVS subs would shake my room more than the pro subs so I thought they had better extension. What the real difference was the sound and power. I will give 2 examples that happened in my room(others could very well have different results). I played the infamous Pulse movie scene with the 15-19 hz pulse wave and sonic bliss. The Svs subs again would shake things more(at least that is what it sound like). I took out my spl meter and the SVS subs were at 110 db's and the pro subs were also at 110 db's so it was not more extension but rather just a different sound. I then put in WOTW pod emerge and the SVS would peak out at 112 db's and the 2 pro subs would peak out at 123 db's, again with the Svs sounding like it had more shake. They were just different sounding. The midbass was no contest as the pro subs would just slap you in the face. I have since built DIY sealed 18's. To be fair I will give you the numbers with all at the same cost(around $1200), up front location(12 feet away from the LP), with all the same amps except the SVS. 1 SVS pb12/plus/2(was $1200 for me) would get me 110 db's on pulse, and 112 db's on WOTW. 2 pro subs, dual Madison subs($1360) would get me 110 db's on pulse and 123 db's om WOTW. My four ported 18 inch sono's($1700) would get me 120 db's on pulse and 126 db's on WOTW. The Svs subs still sound like they rattle things or shake things more and the other 2 sound more alike. I don't know what that means but clearly the more shaking is not because of its power but its sound. The DIY subs were much more visceral on the body. Now I have about $3200 worth of DIY sealed subs and I pin the meter past 126 db's no matter what scene(heavy bass) I play. Just my experiences with different types of subs. BTW, it is close in midbass between the DIY and the pro subs giving the slight nod to the pro subs(thanks to the dual horn subs). I had 4 pro subs and now 8 DIY sealed subs for the comparison.

LHD21,

Here is a dealer that sells alot of JBL pro stuff(cinema)

http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/search.cgi?search_for=jbl

Its funny the irony of pro audio and consumer audio. I've worked in both fields, recording studios, stereo stores, pro audio retailers and I would still say one is for mixing and mastering and the other is for your home. It's just the way it is. Which will cause you to have more questions than answers...

Its funny the irony of pro audio and consumer audio. I've worked in both fields, recording studios, stereo stores, pro audio retailers and I would still say one is for mixing and mastering and the other is for your home. It's just the way it is. Which will cause you to have more questions than answers...

You bring up another good point. As big as the SVS subs were they actually blend and look nice in my room but the pro subs and sonos stick out like a sore thumb. I would only suggest the pro audio or massive sonos's if you can hide them completely. Looks do not matter to me since I hide them. Remember guys that my experiences are what they are because I have massive room gain so my subs will go very low no matter which type.

LHD21,

Here is a dealer that sells alot of JBL pro stuff(cinema)

http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/search.cgi?search_for=jbl

My god thats outrageous. I'll just stick with some PA drivers from PE and build it 10 times over for those prices.

That is why I bought the speaker as a whole, the parts would have cost me more.

The whole speaker is even more outrageous.

I bought my 3622N's for $750 each. Can I build one just as good for less?

I bought my 3622N's for $750 each. Can I build one just as good for less?


I'm willing to bet. I'll look up the specs on the 3622n's driver tomorrow and see what pro drivers model similarly. There are a ton of pro drivers in the $150 - $300 range. I think 1 sheet of MDF would make a decent enclosure. So you're talking port parts and terminals.

Got some pricing for the 4645C. Turns out a little bit cheaper than what the PB-13 ultra had cost me with a crown amplifier for the JBL. Those claims for the JBL of less than 1% second and third order harmonic distortion are extremely impressive. What kind of EQ would those subs require to reach 25hz? Any EQ that can provide boost at the lower end I'm assuming?

I have used many different types of subs. I think once you reach a certain level of bass quality the sound becomes more alike than different. Good quality bass is good quality bass. The big difference is between extension and power. I have owned SVS subs, the best being 3 16-46cs+ cylinders(Have not heard the ultra), M&K subs(many but their best was the MX-5000), klipsch THX ultra 2 subs, the madison pro subs previously mentioned, and now DIY 18 inch ported and sealed subs. My favorite were a combination of both. The sound and power of the pro subs were just amazing and made me realize what reference levels were all about without compression. The 3 SVS cylinders and Klipsch subs made me realize what extension was about so I thought. The SVS subs would shake my room more than the pro subs so I thought they had better extension. What the real difference was the sound and power. I will give 2 examples that happened in my room(others could very well have different results). I played the infamous Pulse movie scene with the 15-19 hz pulse wave and sonic bliss. The Svs subs again would shake things more(at least that is what it sound like). I took out my spl meter and the SVS subs were at 110 db's and the pro subs were also at 110 db's so it was not more extension but rather just a different sound. I then put in WOTW pod emerge and the SVS would peak out at 112 db's and the 2 pro subs would peak out at 123 db's, again with the Svs sounding like it had more shake. They were just different sounding. The midbass was no contest as the pro subs would just slap you in the face. I have since built DIY sealed 18's. To be fair I will give you the numbers with all at the same cost(around $1200), up front location(12 feet away from the LP), with all the same amps except the SVS. 1 SVS pb12/plus/2(was $1200 for me) would get me 110 db's on pulse, and 112 db's on WOTW. 2 pro subs, dual Madison subs($1360) would get me 110 db's on pulse and 123 db's om WOTW. My four ported 18 inch sono's($1700) would get me 120 db's on pulse and 126 db's on WOTW. The Svs subs still sound like they rattle things or shake things more and the other 2 sound more alike. I don't know what that means but clearly the more shaking is not because of its power but its sound. The DIY subs were much more visceral on the body. Now I have about $3200 worth of DIY sealed subs and I pin the meter past 126 db's no matter what scene(heavy bass) I play. Just my experiences with different types of subs. BTW, it is close in midbass between the DIY and the pro subs giving the slight nod to the pro subs(thanks to the dual horn subs). I had 4 pro subs and now 8 DIY sealed subs for the comparison.

this is an absolutely awesome analysis. thanks!

is it possible the svs with its heavy moving mass was causing its cabinet to resonate and in turn causing your entire housing structure to resonate? kind of like a jack hammer pounding on the structure...i could see how that could be perceived as much deeper, more powerful, bass even though the sound pressure in the air was the same or less.

do you have a link to the pro subs that you were using?

My god thats outrageous. I'll just stick with some PA drivers from PE and build it 10 times over for those prices.

i used to think similarly, but it's not so simple. take for example what appears to be a way overpriced cabinet, the 4648-a, and has two 15" drivers. at $1014 it seems expensive. however, the drivers are jbl 2226h, which is one of jbl pro's best drivers. they sell for about $330 each street prices. so if you need two of them you are at $660. then add some cost for an enclosure that can hold up under their power, let's say that costs $150, add another $20 for port tubes, fiberglass, etc and your cost to build it yourself is about $830. if you do everything, the minimum would be the cost of the drivers $660, so no 1/10 the cost.

now you might say, "but the jbl 2226h drivers are overpriced compared to what i can get from parts express." nope again. take for example the eminence omega pro which sells for about half as much money. it has a similar frequency response and similar thiele small parameters, but it is not engineered as well. the jbl has a t-pole, a shorting ring, and some other goodies. the result of these goodies is a driver that has much lower distortion and yes, it's an audible difference as well as measureable. so choose another driver from another manufacturer that has all the same stuff that is in the jbl and your looking at $300-400, so the 2226h isn't overpriced for the performance that it delivers.

this is why pro audio gear isn't used in the home environment. people look at a 15" driver and think since they can get one for $30, the one that costs $300 must be overpriced. the pro gear is also not as attractive. nobody wants 15" drivers in their mains anymore, so okay, nobody has midbass.

i used to think similarly, but it's not so simple. take for example what appears to be a way overpriced cabinet, the 4648-a, and has two 15" drivers. at $1014 it seems expensive. however, the drivers are jbl 2226h, which is one of jbl pro's best drivers. they sell for about $330 each street prices. so if you need two of them you are at $660. then add some cost for an enclosure that can hold up under their power, let's say that costs $150, add another $20 for port tubes, fiberglass, etc and your cost to build it yourself is about $830. if you do everything, the minimum would be the cost of the drivers $660, so no 1/10 the cost.

now you might say, "but the jbl 2226h drivers are overpriced compared to what i can get from parts express." nope again. take for example the eminence omega pro which sells for about half as much money. it has a similar frequency response and similar thiele small parameters, but it is not engineered as well. the jbl has a t-pole, a shorting ring, and some other goodies. the result of these goodies is a driver that has much lower distortion and yes, it's an audible difference as well as measureable. so choose another driver from another manufacturer that has all the same stuff that is in the jbl and your looking at $300-400, so the 2226h isn't overpriced for the performance that it delivers.

this is why pro audio gear isn't used in the home environment. people look at a 15" driver and think since they can get one for $30, the one that costs $300 must be overpriced. the pro gear is also not as attractive. nobody wants 15" drivers in their mains anymore, so okay, nobody has midbass.

For my task, its outrageously overpriced. I'm planning on using it as a basspump for 50hz-100hz. Considering the levels I'm talking and the service life I'm planning the JBL unit is way more than I need. I'll be fine with a budget PE driver.

After having experienced Hi-FI audio systems compared to what I used to have when I DJ'd 15 years ago I'm really disappointed. I have 2 MFW's in a 12x16x8 room opening to the kitchen and for music they lack the bass punch I'm used to for HT they shake and rattle things but in music I'm missing something. Its really disapointing spending money on whats supposed to be top notch sound or overpowering and come back underwhelmed. This goes to all HIFI home cinemas I auditioned on specialty stores not only to MFW-15 that I are in perfect working condition. This thing about making subs "dissapear" is taking away from what's supposed to sound. Even the neighbor's kid has more bang with a single 15" on his car with music. And yes I feel it on my house 10ft away..!

this is an absolutely awesome analysis. thanks!

is it possible the svs with its heavy moving mass was causing its cabinet to resonate and in turn causing your entire housing structure to resonate? kind of like a jack hammer pounding on the structure...i could see how that could be perceived as much deeper, more powerful, bass even though the sound pressure in the air was the same or less.

do you have a link to the pro subs that you were using?

I used this sub, the Madison M1-218, and the Madison 18 inch folded horn. 2 of each but I gave the numbers on just 2 subs(for cost comparison). The midbass is just incredible with these and even more impressive with the horns. One of them were dual 18's with a slot port and the other 2 were 18 inch folded horns. They both use the same driver(mine had the executioner x18 and they make new ones using an eminence driver). After making subs and owning various awesome home subs the pro subs are more impressive than most people would think. What happens is that yes the madison subs were rated flat down to 25 hz but from 25-80hz they would produce over 120 db's. So if they are down say 20 db's at 10 hz you would be at 100 db's at 10 hz which is pretty good. This is without room gain. My pro subs went down to 15 hz with authority(110 db's with duals). BTW, this is all uncorrected spl numbers and will be much higher corrected below 20 hz.

I have used many different types of subs.


Wow MK mate, you sounded just like "Forest Gump" there.:D
http://sackrider.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/forest_gump.jpg
Life is like a box of subs. You never know how low it’s gonna go.:D

After having experienced Hi-FI audio systems compared to what I used to have when I DJ'd 15 years ago I'm really disappointed. I have 2 MFW's in a 12x16x8 room opening to the kitchen and for music they lack the bass punch I'm used to for HT they shake and rattle things but in music I'm missing something. Its really disapointing spending money on whats supposed to be top notch sound or overpowering and come back underwhelmed. This goes to all HIFI home cinemas I auditioned on specialty stores not only to MFW-15 that I are in perfect working condition. This thing about making subs "dissapear" is taking away from what's supposed to sound. Even the neighbor's kid has more bang with a single 15" on his car with music. And yes I feel it on my house 10ft away..!

thanks for sharing your experience! i'm sorry that the mfw-15 hasn't lived up to your expectations. it has really been hyped. you aren't the first one to make this kind of observation however. people all over the place are slowly waking up to the fact that a heavy driver with a modest motor just doesn't have the same mid-bass impact as a light driver with a strong motor. what really adds to the confusion is that the effect can't be seen in a frequency response or distortion plot. moreover, the response to folks such as yourself is that you have a bad room and need room treatments. while that may be true, there is something fundamentally different in the sound produced by hi-fi and pro-audio (as well as vintage/old school hifi) is just plain different.

For my task, its outrageously overpriced. I'm planning on using it as a basspump for 50hz-100hz. Considering the levels I'm talking and the service life I'm planning the JBL unit is way more than I need. I'll be fine with a budget PE driver.

fair enough...each person needs to make that determination for themselves. all i was pointing out is that the jbl pro gear brings a higher level of performance with its higher price tag and that the differences are measureable and audible even at modest listening levels.

thanks for sharing your experience! i'm sorry that the mfw-15 hasn't lived up to your expectations. it has really been hyped. you aren't the first one to make this kind of observation however. people all over the place are slowly waking up to the fact that a heavy driver with a modest motor just doesn't have the same mid-bass impact as a light driver with a strong motor. what really adds to the confusion is that the effect can't be seen in a frequency response or distortion plot. moreover, the response to folks such as yourself is that you have a bad room and need room treatments. while that may be true, there is something fundamentally different in the sound produced by hi-fi and pro-audio (as well as vintage/old school hifi) is just plain different.

I do go out a lot to jazz fests, local band gatherings and know how music is supposed to sound. And what you say is true the sound that hi-fi is more refined relax but lacks the impact and big presentation pro-audio offers. What bothers me is that I know that probably hi-fi or my MFW's or Pdigm Servo for example can achieve good levels of bang if they design the amps crossovers different. Hi-fi main speakers also suffer the same attenuation of frequencies as you probably noticed compared to normal non-hifi speakers. Call me crazy but I dont think people in Pro-sound have much problems with (bad room or need much room treatments); bass or impact presentation in concerts, halls, clubs is almost-always good, what is usually a problem for them is echo and feedback. So with this I reiterate that I'm disappointed with hi-fi and this is not a problem of the brand I'm using right now I had pdigm before is just the way manufacturers tune speakers now. I miss the old days 12" woofer main no-sub bang in chest.

I used this sub, the Madison M1-218, and the Madison 18 inch folded horn.

i couldn't find details on the drivers used. is the executioner a rebadged goldwood newport series?

I do go out a lot to jazz fests, local band gatherings and know how music is supposed to sound. And what you say is true the sound that hi-fi is more refined relax but lacks the impact and big presentation pro-audio offers. What bothers me is that I know that probably hi-fi or my MFW's or Pdigm Servo for example can achieve good levels of bang if they design the amps crossovers different. Hi-fi main speakers also suffer the same attenuation of frequencies as you probably noticed compared to normal non-hifi speakers. Call me crazy but I dont think people in Pro-sound have much problems with (bad room or need much room treatments); bass or impact presentation in concerts, halls, clubs is almost-always good, what is usually a problem for them is echo and feedback. So with this I reiterate that I'm disappointed with hi-fi and this is not a problem of the brand I'm using right now I had pdigm before is just the way manufacturers tune speakers now. I miss the old days 12" woofer main no-sub bang in chest.

I think your problem is that you're not used to quality bass yet. The DJ subs you were used to hearing before are not considered "Hi-Fi". They boost the mid bass for impact and perfer the "V" shaped sound (hot bass and treble). They probably boom and stuff, giving you that impact when listening to hiphop or rap. It takes a while for a person like you to appreciate quality bass. I think overtime you'll like your dual MFW15s more for music and start to disgust those boomy subs used by DJs.

They are now called this

http://www.madisonamps.com/indexmainNEW.htm

the EUP218 and the EUP18F. They must have discontinued the other driver. I bought mine on ebay for $1000 shipped for the dual driver model and $750 shipped for the folded horn. They worked well in a medium sealed room with room gain. I would still go for DIY for the money.

I think your problem is that you're not used to quality bass yet. The DJ subs you were used to hearing before are not considered "Hi-Fi". They boost the mid bass for impact and perfer the "V" shaped sound (hot bass and treble). They probably boom and stuff, giving you that impact when listening to hiphop or rap. It takes a while for a person like you to appreciate quality bass. I think overtime you'll like your dual MFW15s more for music and start to disgust those boomy subs used by DJs.

he doesn't have a problem. he is reporting what he hears. you might want to take a look at the jbl line. for the home systems in their budget lines they use subwoofers similar in design to the mfw. however, as you go up their synthesis line, you will see that they move to pro audio 15" subwoofers, then at the top of the line is the pro audio 18" subwoofer.

Though JBL is a great icon (I think HK made them to consumerized) they have slipped somewhat. Again I say somewhat.

I would beg to differ re: the "pro" world. I think the likes of Adams, Genelec, Dynacoutics, Meyer, Tannoy, ATC, EAW and Klipsch have given them a run for the money in the live, studio and cinema markets the past 10 years.

That is not saying JBL is any more or less a product.

Give me a sec to get the flame proof suit on...

EAW is a LOUD company, so probably uses RCF drivers. RCF makes some top of the line stuff, definitely in the same league as JBL drivers.

Any idea what driver go into Meyer systems? Their studio series looks bad ass.

Curious on peoples opinions on the above. I heard two of these subs at my work place playing some recorded music and they absolutely blast bass, more than what my SVS PB-13 ultra is capable of . How would they sound in a home audio set up? I understand the lowest note they play is about 35 Hz or so but that's fine for most music? How would one of the proper PA subs sound in conjunction with my SVS taking over the lower bass?

The question is this: which model/series are you talking about? I have a pair of the JRX 18s that are fine for club use, but there's no way I would trade them for my home-built sub! With proper EQing they give a good "thump" for the cost and power requirement, but they are far too "loose" for my taste in home gear.

My experience is that "pro" gear intended for mid-level band/club use rarely has a native sound that is as good as an equal-priced "audiophile" piece. However, the guys who set up PA gear generally have good crossover and EQs available, and know how to use them (at least the good ones do). Their job is to make the band sound as good as possible - and this generally means getting a solid kick-drum sound and eliminating feedback, with getting an accurate mains EQ sitting 3rd in priority (sorry, but it's true in almost every case).

PA cabinets are designed to put up with continual movement and abuse, and are also generally intended to be used as part of that company's system, with recommended crossover points, similar efficiency, etc.

That said, the top-level PA setups (like the JBL SRX series) can sound VERY good, when set up properly. At that point, however, you have spent a lot more money than you have to for that level of audio performance - you're paying for a lot of other things that really aren't relevant in a HT environment (ruggedness, connection capabilities, heavy-duty grilles, etc.). JMHO....

That said, the top-level PA setups (like the JBL SRX series) can sound VERY good, when set up properly. At that point, however, you have spent a lot more money than you have to for that level of audio performance - you're paying for a lot of other things that really aren't relevant in a HT environment (ruggedness, connection capabilities, heavy-duty grilles, etc.). JMHO....

just out of curiousity, what "hi-fi" system would keep pace with the srx series for less cost?

Will definitely be looking to add a JBL 4645C sub to my system sometime in the future. Sometimes when I play my music too loud my ultra makes farting noises, I find this totally unacceptable. I doubt even two ultra's will give me what I am looking for. Any amp recommendations for the JBL? Some of the PA subs I heard do not boom, they simply sound really good to my ear.

Some of the PA subs I heard do not boom, they simply sound really good to my ear.

What does PA mean? Public Address, or Pro Audio?

Indeed there are some Sound Reinforcement products which sound good. Take the CS2 for eg, Alpha 15 in OB + cheap like nothing Selenium CD on Dayton round WG/horn. Voted by many golden ears to be the best enjoyable sound during a recent local hifi show. And so on.... (I could list many but that's more into DIY). Sometimes it really is in the overall design and not the cost.

Of course there is no mistake in the sound quality differences between a Behringer Europower sub, a Mackie SWA1801 and a JBL SRX (using the 2268) and those top line stuff like Nexo Geo subs, Meyer. Check out the Altec forums for JBL info. I myself am using a Danley TH-112 for music. No mistake even for audiophile stuff like Steely Dan, Chinese Jiangzhou or Jap Kodo drums....it just hauls ass, doesn't only do well in Hip Hop, trance/electronica. :)

But a JBL SRX isn't gonna be digging even 30Hz due to the tuning, so do take note. You will to google a lot more info first before jumping into it....again the Altec Lansing forums have a lot more info about JBL. Like what Ivan of DSL recently told me regarding what I heard of the EAW SB850, its difficult to gauge what the engineer is shooting for just by listening at the venue and not looking at the processing. Is he shooting for more SPL and clarity and system protection by cutting down on the low bass....etc.

I do understand that the SRX stuff isn't gonna do 30 Hz. That is why I am looking at the 4645C which can do a -3db of 22 Hz with EQ. Also I will be using the PB-13 ultra as well given it can produce sub 20Hz material and will try to level match the two subs together at each frequency using a Behringer DSP1124P.

The 4645C uses a 2242H. The last time I heard 2 x 2242H at a house it does not reach nary 30Hz, no EQ though. If you are into DIY you will know that such drivers even the good pro drivers like 18LW1400, W1300, BMS 18N850/860 they don't do low 20s efficiently, which isn't what they are made/intended for anyway. Maybe only stuff like the McCauley 6174 and Aura 1808/ZR18/various variants....you need solid Xmax to dig deep. Your SVS is made for solid 20Hz thereabouts operation, and so are other various sub drivers. Like kgveteran said, the HT, pro audio, studio, hifi segregation is there for a good reason.

I checked the specs, the 4645C 1w/1m sensitivity is the 2nd graph 2pi line.
http://www.performanceaudio.com/media/pdf/100/7496_s.pdf
At 30Hz it is about 92dB sensitive, 22Hz is 85dB/m/w only. So even at 1000W program power it would be about 115dB ignoring power compression (amount depends on program type). Luckily the tuning is fairly low at 25Hz.

If you could high-pass it at 30Hz and stick to the passband where its intended to operate at, it will serve you extremely well with augmentation by the PB13U. The good news is that even hip hop has very little material below 30Hz. You don't do home theatre?

PS...without proper setup/placement, EQ, bass trapping (at least till like 60Hz) in your room, the difference between whatever pro, studio, audiophile sub is gonna be not much anyway... :D At least you have a DSP1124, that's a decent start.

It seems like people want to use either pro audio or home audio and are defending their position. Neither one appears to be the answer to the "best bass" question.

Who has used both together? I would be extremely unhappy with a sub that didnt reach down to 20hz or lower. I also would be extremely unhappy with a sub that lacked punch in the upper range. It seems these two used together would shin. Low pass the true sub at 40. High pass the pro sub at 40. Set the crossover to 80 and let her eat.

It seems like people want to use either pro audio or home audio and are defending their position. Neither one appears to be the answer to the "best bass" question.

Who has used both together? I would be extremely unhappy with a sub that didnt reach down to 20hz or lower. I also would be extremely unhappy with a sub that lacked punch in the upper range. It seems these two used together would shin. Low pass the true sub at 40. High pass the pro sub at 40. Set the crossover to 80 and let her eat.

There is more than one way to skin a cat and there are of course many roads leading to Rome. Multiple distributed subs, Infinite Baffle, Dipole, Front loaded horn, LLT and Tapped Horn etc. Which gives "best bass"? I don't think a definitive answer exists.

If you want the advantages of a pro audio driver and sub 20Hz performance, then look at horn loading. Tapped horns can be designed to dig into the high teens at very high SPL from a high quality, light weight, low x-max driver.

Who has used both together?

I actually tried to mate the SVS SB12+ (handling the ULF) with the Danley. :D Wasn't pretty.
MKtheatre has tried ported eD drivers and now sealed with the JBL 3622 (dual 15")...but the low freq cab cannot be called a subwoofer. I know Pennyray has an IB with his Lambdas. I am sure there are more but that's all I can remember for now.

Heck I just bought a pair of Peerless HDS 810921 for cheap thrill. Performed as nicely as say a SS 9500. But I still prefer my Beyma CP380/M + DDS (gonna sock it Geddes style one of these days). :D But seriously I like a nice 18W SET amp driving the highly sensitive CD driver, sounds more enjoyable than my 100W audiophile SS amp driving the Peerless HDS (though on a small number of tracks the dome is preferred). When you push it, no contest. Heck even my EL84 headphone amp can drive it to really loud levels and nice SQ. Haven't tried the QSC RMX but I don't think so.... I really want to try the RAAL 140-15d, someone locally has the 70-20 and i'm awaiting some feedback....but at 95dB/m/w only something seems amiss. Maybe its me, I like dynamics.

I just don't have the time to sell my SVS, but I might not as I think I am gonna build a gaming PC soon. Can help augment the AE Aego M. Anyway it may not fetch a good price locally.

I used to be from the purely audiophile camp too..... Like steve71 said, there is more than one way to skin the cat. A good component is a good component, preferably its cheap too. You don't wanna know the mark up on some audio products.

Check out the DIYA forum, lots of audiophiles there using pro components. Anyway on this note, William Cowan told me he prefers the 18LW1400 to the 2242H, lower distortion or something like that. He has a IB with the 18Sound drivers, do a google.

I read somewhere that audiophiles were flabbergasted when they heard the Meyer X-10....way too good. Too bad audiophiles will not buy it, coz it only comes with digital amplification, and of course tru-blu audiophiles believe in only SET amps, hooked up with no less UPOCC cables wound in some exotic yoga-like geometry. See the problem now? :D

Ultimately for us its a hobby, don't forget to have fun.

I think your problem is that you're not used to quality bass yet. The DJ subs you were used to hearing before are not considered "Hi-Fi". They boost the mid bass for impact and perfer the "V" shaped sound (hot bass and treble). They probably boom and stuff, giving you that impact when listening to hiphop or rap. It takes a while for a person like you to appreciate quality bass. I think overtime you'll like your dual MFW15s more for music and start to disgust those boomy subs used by DJs.

I'll get used to it. In reality they sound good great extension, in HT friends always go impressed but for music I feel theres something missing. People often ask "if the sub is on.?". And thats the quality HIFI is looking for. Very transparent but for me there's too much transparency for my taste that's how can I explain it.

If you want the advantages of a pro audio driver and sub 20Hz performance, then look at horn loading. Tapped horns can be designed to dig into the high teens at very high SPL from a high quality, light weight, low x-max driver.

There are too many resonance issues with tapped horns for me. They do sound nice but they dont disappear into the music or the movie for me.

As for the people who combined PA and HT subs, I'd love to see pics.

I've not heard a tapped horn, but I do like folded horns. Have you heard a difference?

Maybe I'm confusing the two. I've heard several horns now and they sound different when listening to music or movies. When you play a sine wave sweep the seem to warble. I picked up on the sound right away while listening to a movie and then it was backed up by the warble when we did some sweeps several years later.

This was back in the days when we'd buy competition CDs to see if we could make each others stereos distort. One of the CDs came with a sweep from very low, maybe teens, up to about 200 hz or so. On my sealed box it sounded normal and a buddies bandpass car box it sounded normal. On the horn though it definitely sounded obviously different.

I've not heard a tapped horn, but I do like folded horns.

I'd guess its difficult to tell, because all the folded horns stuff I heard from EAW are those in the field so they already would have the advantage of having no reflections to muck it up. In my home i'd have EQ but time domain disadvantage. I have had local event guys emailing me to do demo (think someone forwarded my addy LOL!) but its my bedroom, so its not convenient now. :D
6-9 months down the road I will be moving house, perhaps later....
Also its difficult to tell what the FOH is trying to do just by listening, they could be shooting for short term SPL to give you a WOW factor during the finale, or it might be a 16-hr rave party and trying to save drivers. I'm a professional photographer as well, seriously I do "pretty similar stuff" :o (I often aim for 1 shot-1 kill).

Since you are very familiar with the Lambdas, the TD15M-A in 2 sealed 90L boxes as mains EQed to do ~ 30Hz sounded about the same in the bass as the TH-112 EQed w/house curve (i don't like flat). My Lambda box is ported and tuned pretty high I think 60Hz or so, but I could seal it and dig low down at the expense of the eff. If you want a -ve, the only thing i'd say is that this particular cab does not sound as good as the Lambdas above 80Hz as xover point, even after EQ....there is a very slight honk. But then that is what the Lambda is built for anyway. But then I have not done serious listening sessions.....but heck the stuff here is so darn fun that I don't really feel that I can listen critically. Last time with lesser audiophile speakers/stuff then yes I tend to dissect things and listen critically. :p If you want a description, it sounds more like the Eton drivers kind of accurate sound.
And nowadays I tend to even take out stuff like Gun N Roses/Depeche Mode and put it on again, last time with 18W into 89dB speakers it was usually only Girl-with-Guitar Fuji Emita stuff, Stevie Ray Vangaugh/Dire Straits are already pushing it. :D

It seems like people want to use either pro audio or home audio and are defending their position.

fighting for their beliefs is what humans do. :(

anyway...the pro audio / home audio distinction might not be the best way to slice it. it really comes down to design and efficiency. most pro audio designs tend toward lighter moving masses and powerful motors, while the home audio tends toward heavier moving masses and less powerful motors.

however, we should remember that it wasn't always this way. for a very long time, hi-fi home systems had lighter moving masses and powerful motors...think altec, jbl, klipsch during the 1970's. these speakers kicked arse. the problem was to get good extension with this design, you needed large boxes, so the speakers were all pretty large.

then, somehow, we all got deluded into thinking that the same sound could be produced by 'bookshelf' speakers or some other such non-sense. "waf" became the concern du jour. dynamic speakers were finished.

now we have recognized that we are missing the performance, so the options have become: 1. buy vintage gear, 2. buy pro audio gear, 3. diy, 4. pay very high prices for niche products that meet the old design principals.

none of those options is satisfying for most folks, so without a solution, the debate will go on.

There are too many resonance issues with tapped horns for me. They do sound nice but they dont disappear into the music or the movie for me.

As for the people who combined PA and HT subs, I'd love to see pics.

A correctly designed and built Tapped horn will not not have any resonance issues in the bandpass. Mine it is flat from 22-80hz and can hit 115db at 1m anywhere in that frequency range outside in a field. There are a number of issues outside the bandbass that benefit from DSP.

A tapped horn and a folded horn are two different designs. You said you were confused as to which one you heard. Since tapped horns are a very new design with relativity few around I'd hazard a guess that you were listening to a folded horn. Folded horns can be great but only below about 200-300hz (iirc). Also you have to delay your mains to take into account the path length of the horn. Any resonant issues you heard are most likely attributable to that individual design, build and setup.

I'm using my tapped horn below 80hz and above that I have front loaded horns up to 18khz. Everything is actively crossed/time aligned and EQed with a dbx drive rack PA.

Here's and old pic before I could mount the HF horn in the mouth of the mid horn. I still have to add bracing to the bass/mid bass horn. It's taken me along time to get the best out of them, but now they completely disappear with stunning dynamics, transients and detail.



http://steve71.fileave.com/horns.JPG

fighting for their beliefs is what humans do. :(

anyway...the pro audio / home audio distinction might not be the best way to slice it. It really comes down to design and efficiency. Most pro audio designs tend toward lighter moving masses and powerful motors, while the home audio tends toward heavier moving masses and less powerful motors.

However, we should remember that it wasn't always this way. For a very long time, hi-fi home systems had lighter moving masses and powerful motors...think altec, jbl, klipsch during the 1970's. These speakers kicked arse. The problem was to get good extension with this design, you needed large boxes, so the speakers were all pretty large.

Then, somehow, we all got deluded into thinking that the same sound could be produced by 'bookshelf' speakers or some other such non-sense. "waf" became the concern du jour. Dynamic speakers were finished.

Now we have recognized that we are missing the performance, so the options have become: 1. Buy vintage gear, 2. Buy pro audio gear, 3. Diy, 4. Pay very high prices for niche products that meet the old design principals.

None of those options is satisfying for most folks, so without a solution, the debate will go on.

+1

Absolutely, agreed. I have made my choice. I will be building a 18" sub using the JBL 2242H pro audio driver strictly. Port tuning frequency I am aiming for is 25 Hz and a 8 ft^3 cabinet. The amp I will use is a Crown XLS 602 in bridged mode. I am after reasonable extension and am hoping for at least 120-125db+ at my seating position running the sub with my PB-13U. I do not see what good is bass to 10 Hz if you cant get the upper ranges done right which are much more important than less than 20 Hz bass. What do you guys think? Guess I am off to the DIY area ;)

Why not use 18LW1400 or something? 1/2 the price. William Cowan told me he likes this more than the 2242, lower distortion and all. I believe EAW stuff use this in their SB1000 and stuff.

Look out for John J's new Lambda TD18H, i think he's already built some and used it for New Year's shows. Very very good drivers, ultra low inductance. You can enquire at www.aespeakers.com
Get 2, wire each box to each channel of your XLS602...

Absolutely, agreed. I have made my choice. I will be building a 18" sub using the JBL 2242H pro audio driver strictly. Port tuning frequency I am aiming for is 25 Hz and a 8 ft^3 cabinet. The amp I will use is a Crown XLS 602 in bridged mode. I am after reasonable extension and am hoping for at least 120-125db+ at my seating position running the sub with my PB-13U. I do not see what good is bass to 10 Hz if you cant get the upper ranges done right which are much more important than less than 20 Hz bass. What do you guys think? Guess I am off to the DIY area ;)

the 2242h is one bad a$$ driver. you won't be disappointed.

something that you might want to consider as an alternative is the 2226h. it is a 15" driver that costs half as much...which let's you afford to buy two of them. :D

then go for 6 cu. ft. enclosures tuned to 25 hz. you will have the added advantage that two subs will help smooth out rooms modes. then again, with the 2242h you get the big-ballz-bragg'n-rights.

Why not use 18LW1400 or something? 1/2 the price. William Cowan told me he likes this more than the 2242, lower distortion and all. I believe EAW stuff use this in their SB1000 and stuff.

Look out for John J's new Lambda TD18H, i think he's already built some and used it for New Year's shows. Very very good drivers, ultra low inductance. You can enquire at www.aespeakers.com
Get 2, wire each box to each channel of your XLS602...

lower distortion than what? :confused: where is the 18lw1400 distortion plot? i haven't seen any distortion plots from 18sound except for a couple drivers in a random conference presentation. granted the 18lw1400 is designed well, so it should measure well.

jbl is pretty up front with their stuff:
http://www2.jblpro.com/pub/components/2242.pdf
(typically distortions are plotted at +20db, the 2242db is so low that wouldn't even show up on the chart, so they use +30db) the 2242h has distortions lower than -55db up to 500hz and not much more higher than that, which means it's cleaner than most midranges! and that's not measured at 80 or 90db, that's at 115db...insane!

also, note the frequency response is in free field 4pi space. if you put the sub in a corner of your room you will have about +18db by 30hz, so overall it will have flat to rising frequency response in room down to the tuning frequency.

LTD02, you really should ask William Cowan or some of the good guys at DIYA, they have good practical experiences with the various drivers. There aren't much of a following here even in the DIY section. I actually posted a question along that line there a year ago.....seriously I took months and painstakingly plugged most of the pro drivers into WinISD to check out the characteristics.

Its actually 100-110 dB for JBL at bass freqs though its sealed. BMS does their tests at nearly 130s with 1kW. :o Check out BMS 18N850v2 series at bmselektronik.de.... generally you do not have to worry about distortion about these well and widely used drivers by the big commercial names. Anyway, don't have to get too hung up on absolute graph representation, distortion figures if you believe the Geddes way (where it was tested at a AES meet where golden ears couldn't even discern 25% distortion).
I would have tried the 18N850 if not for the fact that its so difficult to ship here taking both time and $$$, the 18TBX100 is available locally but I wanted something that sounds better. Yes the 2242H is good but I want "gooder" and its just too expensive to muck up with a sub-standard cab.

For kicks, do check out the distortion plots of the pro horns (Danley, bassmaxx, JTR) at bass freqs, of 100, 200, 400, 800, 1.6kW they are all there at Wayne's webby at pispeakers. :)

Talking about practical experiences, gorge your eyes with this crazy post by Juan.... :eek:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/4896/0/

A correctly designed and built Tapped horn will not not have any resonance issues in the bandpass. Mine it is flat from 22-80hz and can hit 115db at 1m anywhere in that frequency range outside in a field. There are a number of issues outside the bandbass that benefit from DSP.

A tapped horn and a folded horn are two different designs. You said you were confused as to which one you heard. Since tapped horns are a very new design with relativity few around I'd hazard a guess that you were listening to a folded horn. Folded horns can be great but only below about 200-300hz (iirc). Also you have to delay your mains to take into account the path length of the horn. Any resonant issues you heard are most likely attributable to that individual design, build and setup.

I'm using my tapped horn below 80hz and above that I have front loaded horns up to 18khz. Everything is actively crossed/time aligned and EQed with a dbx drive rack PA.

Here's and old pic before I could mount the HF horn in the mouth of the mid horn. I still have to add bracing to the bass/mid bass horn. It's taken me along time to get the best out of them, but now they completely disappear with stunning dynamics, transients and detail.



http://steve71.fileave.com/horns.JPG

If thats the case I'll have to build a tapped horn sometime soon. Sounds cool.

LTD02, you really should ask William Cowan or some of the good guys at DIYA, they have good practical experiences with the various drivers. There aren't much of a following here even in the DIY section. I actually posted a question along that line there a year ago.....seriously I took months and painstakingly plugged most of the pro drivers into WinISD to check out the characteristics.


My next build is a combo HT/PA sub set. Drivers like the maelstrom reach super low but lack midbass punch and PA seems to be almost nothing but midbass punch. Sounds like a match made in heaven. I'll start a build thread once my maelstroms arrive.

Absolutely, agreed. I have made my choice. I will be building a 18" sub using the JBL 2242H pro audio driver strictly. Port tuning frequency I am aiming for is 25 Hz and a 8 ft^3 cabinet. The amp I will use is a Crown XLS 602 in bridged mode. I am after reasonable extension and am hoping for at least 120-125db+ at my seating position running the sub with my PB-13U. I do not see what good is bass to 10 Hz if you cant get the upper ranges done right which are much more important than less than 20 Hz bass. What do you guys think? Guess I am off to the DIY area ;)


Ive got this exact build. 7.25 in port in 8 cubes.

2100 tried to talk me out of the 2242 also.( After it was sitting on my bench )The diy section seems to really be slanted away from anything jbl.

Spend some time on the net checking this driver. It gets very high praise from very respected people in the biz. The sound quality is really very good and the specs are VERY conservative.

Drivers like the maelstrom reach super low but lack midbass punch and PA seems to be almost nothing but midbass punch. Sounds like a match made in heaven. I'll start a build thread once my maelstroms arrive.

cool...though not entirely accurate. many pro drivers are happy in enclosures tuned in the mid twenties, which is sufficient to provide "flat to 20" performance. in a transmission line, they can compete just fine in the sub-bass too. also, no maelstroms will be found in thx theaters, which are all bassed-out with pro-audio subs. p.a. subs get theaters rumbling pretty well.

most "sub bass" in music is actually around 30-40hz, much higher than most people who haven't measured it think. i measured bass mekanik's "bassest hits - title track" which has 'super deep' bass. it is actually kicking out about 42hz, so the pro-audio stuff will handle that in spades.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=129027&stc=1&d=1231456171

where the pro-audio stuff actually gets less efficient is from about 20hz down. down there big excursion can makes sense. heavy drivers can also make good sense in car audio where enclosure size is severely limited.

anyway, maelstrom will surely provide good sub bass. enjoy.

LTD02, you really should ask William Cowan or some of the good guys at DIYA, they have good practical experiences with the various drivers.

thanks.

There aren't much of a following here even in the DIY section. I actually posted a question along that line there a year ago.....seriously I took months and painstakingly plugged most of the pro drivers into WinISD to check out the characteristics.

brother! i know how that goes.

Its actually 100-110 dB for JBL at bass freqs though its sealed.

the plot is in free field, 4 pi space. room gain kicks in around 250hz or so and is up to +6db per -1/2 pi space by 100hz. from 100 hz down in a 1/4 pi environment (against a wall) the 2242h will be flat to about 40hz, in a 1/8 pi environment will be flat or even have a little rise down to under 30hz. also, as you note the plot is for a sealed enclosure, so a tuned enclosure will produce even more prodigious bass spl. these measurements are confirmed in other jbl documents.

BMS does their tests at nearly 130s with 1kW. :o Check out BMS 18N850v2 series at bmselektronik.de....
bms are nice drivers, no doubt. the problem with the one that you mention is that it has a relatively heavy moving mass, so is not going to be as good as the 2242h for mid-bass.

generally you do not have to worry about distortion about these well and widely used drivers by the big commercial names. Anyway, don't have to get too hung up on absolute graph representation, distortion figures if you believe the Geddes way (where it was tested at a AES meet where golden ears couldn't even discern 25% distortion).
the distortion story is still unfolding. parham chooses the 2226h for his four pi over the omega pro 15 because in his experience, even though they both have low distortion, the jbl is superior 'over time' as it causes him less listener fatique. he attributes this to jbl's 'lower' distortion.

For kicks, do check out the distortion plots of the pro horns (Danley, bassmaxx, JTR) at bass freqs, of 100, 200, 400, 800, 1.6kW they are all there at Wayne's webby at pispeakers. :)
i'm afraid to look or i might fill my whole living area up with giant pro horns. :D

Ive got this exact build. 7.25 in port in 8 cubes.

2100 tried to talk me out of the 2242 also.( After it was sitting on my bench )The diy section seems to really be slanted away from anything jbl.

Spend some time on the net checking this driver. It gets very high praise from very respected people in the biz. The sound quality is really very good and the specs are VERY conservative.

thanks for the post tack! given that jbl practically invented the movie subwoofer category and have more installs than any other company, it stands to reason they make some good stuff.

here it is, straight from the horses mouth:

"The 2242H is ideal for theater subwoofer applications, where its low distortion and high excursion capability outperform any other transducer in the JBL line."

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n22.pdf

cool...though not entirely accurate. many pro drivers are happy in enclosures tuned in the mid twenties, which is sufficient to provide "flat to 20" performance. in a transmission line, they can compete just fine in the sub-bass too.

I'm looking for down to single digits or as close to them as possible. I'd be interested in seeing how they react in a transmission line though.

also, no maelstroms will be found in thx theaters, which are all bassed-out with pro-audio subs. p.a. subs get theaters rumbling pretty well.

Not really looking to keep up with the Jones's. Just want to build something that works extremely well and is fun while doing it. Most of what I hear in theaters isnt that low either.


most "sub bass" in music is actually around 30-40hz, much higher than most people who haven't measured it think. i measured bass mekanik's "bassest hits - title track" which has 'super deep' bass. it is actually kicking out about 42hz, so the pro-audio stuff will handle that in spades.where the pro-audio stuff actually gets less efficient is from about 20hz down. down there big excursion can makes sense,

My current plan is some sort of PA sub crossed between 30-40 up to 80 and the maelstroms crossed from 30-40 down to as low as I can get. Sounds like I need to play with it and do lots of modeling.

I'm looking for down to single digits or as close to them as possible. I'd be interested in seeing how they react in a transmission line though.

from my *very* limited understanding of it, the air in the "tube" behind the driver in a transmission line acts similarly to adding weight to the driver. it lowers fs, then the length of the line can be increased to create reinforcement similar to a ported enclosure. it seems like a way to get great bass extension, but the effective added weight of the air in the line will reduce sensitivity, which reduces mid-bass performance. so...no free lunch.

Just want to build something that works extremely well and is fun while doing it.

+1

My current plan is some sort of PA sub crossed between 30-40 up to 80 and the maelstroms crossed from 30-40 down to as low as I can get. Sounds like I need to play with it and do lots of modeling.

that sounds awesome!

bms are nice drivers, no doubt. the problem with the one that you mention is that it has a relatively heavy moving mass, so is not going to be as good as the 2242h for mid-bass.

the distortion story is still unfolding. parham chooses the 2226h for his four pi over the omega pro 15 because in his experience, even though they both have low distortion, the jbl is superior 'over time' as it causes him less listener fatique. he attributes this to jbl's 'lower' distortion.

i'm afraid to look or i might fill my whole living area up with giant pro horns. :D

Hey bro, it seems that you and I are into the same area of interest. :D

(a) regarding the higher cone mass of the 18N850v2, well by design (eg T/S) it can dig lower than 2242H without EQ if i can remember correctly my modelling. The heavier mass also kills off the efficiency. The impt thing is, looking at this solely does not tell the whole picture anyway...a good motor can easily counteract the diff in mass.
http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq1

If you ask me, the cabinet alignment determines more of the "bass flavour", and for our intended apps the drivers' inductance is important. I believe the 4645c 300L box means EBS btw.... would you call that alignment a "loose sounding" one?

(b) Pispeakers 4pi. I was in the same boat actually, literally looked through the whole of Eminence line and noticed at least the bigger drivers have a nasty resonance bump (breakup commences). John J of aespeakers mentioned about issue with the dustcap mainly, take out the dustcap and its gone.
Even if you notch out the thingy the resonance will still be there audible and all, just lower in level, or you can avoid it at least 1 octave below with steep curves.
http://www.eminence-speaker.com/proseries.asp?speaker_size=15

But heck, just use a TD15M-A or similar and be done with it. You can EQ this thing +20/30dB and make it sound like a fullranger with serious treble. :D This thing is a natural performer up to 4k, and sounds good doing so....and yes it does sound good in real life. This thing has lower Le than Scanspeak dedicated midranges (just that it beams which is the natural thing to do for such a big driver operating that high up, but not too bad in hifi single-LP with the phase plug)
http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1677

But no doubt, 2242/2226/2268 are good products.....premium products have their place and JBL will be very sellable and holds their value well, just check out the Lansing Heritage forums. Yes I have heard a pair of the 2242 in bass bins and even without a xover there is not much nasties....

I have considered the 2226 before for my mains, but the USA Lambda apollos have just so much value. Now they have the TD18H, do check it out. I don't think it is expensive from what the TD15s are still priced at, you can spec it whatever you want with regards to the shorting rings/sleeves options, and it has enough Xmax/low down performance that you will not miss even the 18N860.

Alert
**********
Faital Pro has the 18LX1500, usspeakers is starting to carry it. Looks promising if the price is right.
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2018XL1500-1.htm
(they actually have a polymer diaphragm based compression driver that's not too expensive that i'd like to try too)

BMS, I agree, too expensive and too difficult to get. Assistance Audio seems dead, no email answered when i tried 2 years ago on BMS and the DDS waveguides as they have the best pricings. Loudspeaker Plus and usspeakers are really expensive, and you pay first then wait like 3 months....and we know how risky that would be. But it'd be good if you are in the EU, not difficult to get there. It depends on how desperate you can get it, I am half way round the world from you guys and I still get your Made in USA Lambdas. :D


(c) Horns, good horns are good though not the ultimate. Bad horns - i reserve my comments. The TH-112 has the same ~300L volume as the 4645c actually...not too big. Actually the pretty well known (at least here) 400L peerless-12" folded horn in HTS sub tests is pretty big but the SPLs are not there compared to other offerings, take the Growler for instance. But how many woofers/cabs would one want to manage with amps/cables/plugs/additional electrical service to equal a dual Bassmaxx Trip? Its about least 40 x 18s? :p


Cheers

PS. I forgot we actually had dirtyharriet here in AVS (do a search), she was considering the big guns from Danley and JBL (4632 mains or something). Finally I believe she got 4 x TH-115s to work with her 16 x 18" IB, but sold them as she shifted house or something so there is a rebuilt. Now she's nowhere to be found, i think she will be someone's good answer. :)

Plug in both 2242H and 18N860 into WinISD, both 300L and 25Hz tuning, 1500W as power (music program). The 19mm Xmax of the BMS comes into play.
Plug in 1W, and change to SPL. Below 40Hz there is no difference (as over here the enclosure/tuning matters and takes over).
Extra headroom for the BMS over JBL, 3dB at 25Hz, 6dB at 30-40, 4dB at 50Hz. (max SPL in WinISD)
Interesting....of course doesn't tell you about anything other than SPL, but still interesting nevertheless.

Not sure what does Carbon Fibre diaphragm mean in the BMS PDF. Paper impregnated with carbon fibres? (like the EVX 180B has a Kevlar composite cone)
The Lambda TD18H has 16mm I believe.

Thanks for the info 2100. What do you think of the EVX 180B, I can get that for a lot cheaper than the 2242H? Those may be good woofers you listed there but I want something that I can get locally in AUS like the JBL and EV.

2100, the 18n860 has a much high mass and only a marginally higher bl than the 2242h. it looks more like a pro-audio version of a maelstrom than a 2242h competitor.

dl86, evx 180b has specs which suggest that it may have a good design, but the only download information that i could find on the ev site was for a hi-res image of the driver. wtf good is that? the only diagram of the driver that i could find is on page 51 of their full catalog. it appears to use a straight pole piece, no demodulating rings...these are clues that it is just not in the same league as the 2242h.

the 18sound lw1400 is a lower cost option (about half price in the usa) that will probably get you pretty close to the 2242h in performance...these could be considered head-to-head competitors. for some reason 18sound doesn't show distortion plots, so we are left to guess. however, features such as linear spiders and demodulating rings are features that suggest distortion may be pretty low.

One of the best threads I have read in awhile.

I too am in the same boat as many of you. I've built a Large, Low Tuned subwoofer (13cu feet, tuned to 14hz) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=920648)and although I have no problems digging deep into the subsonics that you can't hear but only feel, the midbass impact just isn't there.

Infact my previously store bought Jamo sub featuring a 10" driver and 150 watt amp delivers better impact in the midbass area as it's tuning is in the 30's.

I've been checking out DIYAudio's collaborative tapped horn thread (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97674&perpage=25) and am up to page 28 so far. What I haven't heard from anyone yet is if these tapped horns give that midbass impact we are craving?

I also looked into Bill Fitzmaurice's folded horns (http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/), specially the Tuba 30. They appear to be a hybrid of a folded horn where the driver is housed within a bandpass enclosure. Yielding a high efficency with a relatively small footprint in contrast to other folded horns.

I have the same question on this alignment as well. Does it give you the midbass impact? Some have said Yes, some have said No, go with their Titan which is designed for live sound.

Does anyone have experience with either of these alignments and can contrast the differences and advantages?

i kind of hate to suggest another place to ask, but wayne parham may have some insights on this question as he has good experience with both pro audio style speakers, such as his 4pi, and he has also built horns in the spirit of the lab horn, his 12pi.

mynym, maybe you could ask at his site and then report back here with his comments?

i kind of hate to suggest another place to ask, but wayne parham may have some insights on this question as he has good experience with both pro audio style speakers, such as his 4pi, and he has also built horns in the spirit of the lab horn, his 12pi.

mynym, maybe you could ask at his site and then report back here with his comments?


Great idea.

I've posted my question on the Pi forums@audioroundtable:

http://www.audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/23410.html

Here's the response I got from Wayne:

A tapped horn is like a transmission line. It trades size for efficiency, meaning you can get a low cutoff in a relatively small box but the efficiency isn't as high as a traditional basshorn. It also has higher distortion because of its high frequency artifacts. Since it is built like a scoop with a long path length, it has high frequency interference modes. Those create large ripples at the upper end of the passband. But you can get deep extension in a relatively small box.

For high fidelity sound indoors, I suggest looking into the multi-sub (http://www.audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/23394.html) approach instead. Use two or three of the subs you have now placed around the room. The idea is to smooth room modes using dense interference to average the sound field below the Schroeder frequency.

2100, the 18n860 has a much high mass and only a marginally higher bl than the 2242h. it looks more like a pro-audio version of a maelstrom than a 2242h competitor.

dl86, evx 180b has specs which suggest that it may have a good design, but the only download information that i could find on the ev site was for a hi-res image of the driver. wtf good is that? the only diagram of the driver that i could find is on page 51 of their full catalog. it appears to use a straight pole piece, no demodulating rings...these are clues that it is just not in the same league as the 2242h.

the 18sound lw1400 is a lower cost option (about half price in the usa) that will probably get you pretty close to the 2242h in performance...these could be considered head-to-head competitors. for some reason 18sound doesn't show distortion plots, so we are left to guess. however, features such as linear spiders and demodulating rings are features that suggest distortion may be pretty low.

I am growing increasingly interested in that 18sound 18lw1400 woofer. I found instructions on what kind of box to build for this woofer : http://www.eighteensound.com/staticContent/applications/kits/18Sound_kit18.pdf . If this woofer can get me the same performance as the 2242h I will surely go for it as I can get it for a lot cheaper. Also will it be bad to drive it with a single channel from a rotel rb-1080 amplifier until I gather more funds to provide a bigger amp? Curious would I be able to use this woofer as a guitar amp?

I am growing increasingly interested in that 18sound 18lw1400 woofer. I found instructions on what kind of box to build for this woofer : http://www.eighteensound.com/staticContent/applications/kits/18Sound_kit18.pdf . If this woofer can get me the same performance as the 2242h I will surely go for it as I can get it for a lot cheaper. Also will it be bad to drive it with a single channel from a rotel rb-1080 amplifier until I gather more funds to provide a bigger amp? Curious would I be able to use this woofer as a guitar amp?

that kit appears to be about a 5 cu ft enclosure (not counting port volume) tuned to around 35hz. since you say that you are going to have a pb13u for subharmonics, that should work great. without a pb13u, you could make a larger box 7 cu ft or so, tune it lower, 25hz or so, and have in-room performance that extends to the upper teens, which would be enough sub for most folks.

you can use your amplifier. the only reason not to use a weak amp is that people like to turn up the volume too high for the amp. this clips the signal. when a signal clips, about 2.5x the power goes through the voice coil, with no additional loudness. this is one way that drivers get burned up by small amps. the power handling on this woofer is so high however, it is unlikely that you could burn it up even with some clipping.

you could use it as a guitar amp, but it wouldn't work very well for that. guitar speakers are typically very light (and many have very low inductance) and have very low xmax. the result is that they can play very high frequencies, up to 5khz in some instances. since they often get driven past their xmax, they distort frequently, but many musicians like the distortion.

good luck with your build.

Here's the response I got from Wayne:

A tapped horn is like a transmission line. It trades size for efficiency, meaning you can get a low cutoff in a relatively small box but the efficiency isn't as high as a traditional basshorn. It also has higher distortion because of its high frequency artifacts. Since it is built like a scoop with a long path length, it has high frequency interference modes. Those create large ripples at the upper end of the passband. But you can get deep extension in a relatively small box.

For high fidelity sound indoors, I suggest looking into the multi-sub approach instead. Use two or three of the subs you have now placed around the room. The idea is to smooth room modes using dense interference to average the sound field below the Schroeder frequency.



The statements in bold are a little misleading. A tapped horn should be crossed below the point where there is any HF interference modes.

For example my TH is crossed at 80hz where it's FR is flat. Above that it has 24db/octave of attenuation (AVP's crossover ) plus I went the extra mile and added a -16db shelf above 80hz and peq to address the most prominent peaks.

Just need to show of :rolleyes: Look what I have ! :D

Just kidding, I am going to build 4 4645C/S1S EX clones for my home cinema and I will not even consider to use anything else than the 2242H :)

The statements in bold are a little misleading. A tapped horn should be crossed below the point where is any HF interference modes.

For example my TH is crossed at 80hz where it's FR is flat. Above that it has 24db/octave of attenuation (AVP's crossover ) plus I went the extra mile and added a -16db shelf above 80hz and peq to address the most prominent peaks.

How are TH's in the mid-subbass area where most of the kick drums are felt?

That's what I am really after.

Just need to show of :rolleyes: Look what I have ! :D

Just kidding, I am going to build 4 4645C/S1S EX clones for my home cinema and I will not even consider to use anything else than the 2242H :)

nice!

How are TH's in the mid-subbass area where most of the kick drums are felt?
That's what I am really after.

that seems to be one point emphasized in their marketing...

"I did a demo in Texas a couple of weeks ago and one of the rooms was a 7000 seat auditorium. 4-TH-115's running off a single 20 amp breaker impressed the owner enough to be interested in replacing the 8 2-18's they have on the floor. Once you hear the tapped horn punch it is really hard to go back to a conventional design. The end user price of the TH-115 is $2250.00" -Mike Hedden, Danley Sound Labs, Inc.

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/14202/0/

another quote from the same thread...

"Earlier this week we redid one of our older installations (done 5 yrs ago). On the subside, the old system had 3 2x18" cabs and 2 2x15" cabs (lined up under the stage). The customer had added some cabs/amps since the origional installation. We put in a single TH115. During system alignment (we had also replaced the mains, but that is not the discussion here) the customer wanted to know if he should get another TH115. I told him to try out the current system first.

After Wed night, he called up and said "Never mind". The single TH115 was more than enough for him. He had never been happy with the bass before. He liked the "baseball bat in the chest" effect he was getting. The new sub also has much less power going to it than the previous subs had."

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/14202/0/

mynym,

here is a review that includes several big horns:

http://www.cobrasound.com/shootout06

make sure you scroll down until you get to this picture...where they bring in the "big dogs":

http://cobrasound.com/files/pictures/bigdogs.jpg

and just when you thought the th115's might be the holy grail...

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/272629/0/?srch=shootout#msg_272629

frequency response for horn subs at the shootout:

http://www.cobrasound.com/MDSubwoofers

A few thoughts on the Tapped horn.

Regarding subjective sound;
First, one thing which also differentiates the tapped horn from a vented alignment with a similar frequency response / low corner is that the Tapped horn often has about half the group delay associated with the low corner.

Some folks prefer the “sound” of a sealed box over a vented box and part of that may be the difference in GD as well.
For the vented alignment, as the frequency falls and one approaches the low corner, one finds the sound is progressively delayed (phase rotation) a time roughly equal to 1 / 2 wave length at that frequency.
It has been speculated that the different times that the upper and lower portions of the signal emerge from a vented subwoofer is audible, when that “spreading in time” is reduced; the speakers often have more subjective “attack”, the signal is produced over a smaller span of time.

Distortion; all speakers produce harmonic distortion, this is “free energy” produced at multiples of the input frequency with the third and fifth components being most objectionable and audible.
Wayne is incorrect, the Tapped horn doesn’t produce more distortion inherently but he has tried to be a fountain of fallacy regarding other inventions of mine a number of times, beginning with the Unity horn some 8 years ago.
What the tapped horn does do is allow one to get more sound out of a given volume than one can get with a bass conventional horn of practical size.
That is why side by side demo’s are our most effective sales tool.

That distortion is due to non-linearity in the motor and mechanical system.
If one took a given driver and produced X spl at X frequency and then put it in an appropriate Tapped horn, one finds that the distortion is reduced roughly by the amount the Tapped horn’s loading reduced the cone motion.
Some of the Tapped horns increase the sensitivity of the raw driver by about 10dB and that corresponds to a reduction of motion by about 3 for a given SPL.
Hope that helps put these in perspective.
Tom Danley

How are TH's in the mid-subbass area where most of the kick drums are felt?

That's what I am really after.

My TH (16-80hz) + front loaded midbass horns (80-500hz) are very good at producing that live kick drum and bass feel provided you have a suitable recording and you play it at live listening levels (120db). And the rest of your speakers have to be able to keep up as well. Usually I also have to boost the subs level. Lets face it, most recordings are pretty compressed and the kick drum is way down in the mix compared to what you get at a live concert. A little reverse engineering is needed but doesn't work with all recordings.

Maybe in your case a pair of folded horns might be better since you really should horn load the entire bass, say 40-250hz? I don't think a TH can cover that wide of a bandwidth. The TH is all about producing low freqs in a high efficiency, relativity small package.

thank you tom. your insights are very much appreciated here!

Excellent discussions guys :)

Which alignment do the new Danley TH-SPUD's fall into? TH's?

I know looks is not everything, but I have always thought as JBL subs as cheap looking...but hey, thats just me.

I know looks is not everything, but I have always thought as JBL subs as cheap looking...but hey, thats just me.
:rolleyes:

Excellent discussions guys :)

Which alignment do the new Danley TH-SPUD's fall into? TH's?

mynym, if you are shooting for some good mid-bass slam, then it would seem that a good place to begin is to determine what spl you require. once you have determined that, then you can select a configuration that meets your requirements. there are many ways to skin the mid-bass cat. just remember to include light drivers with large magnets, which tend to be high efficiency designs and as tom danley noted try to avoid as best as possible sharp knees in the frequency response that cause large group delay as this may reduce the subjective slam of the system.

if you are shooting for relatively low spl (peaks in the vacinity of 115db) you might choose mains with pro audio 12-15 inch drivers covering the range from 50-150hz. this will provide more mid-bass slam than most 'audiophile' type speakers, so it would be a good start.

if you are shooting for higher spl (peaks of 120-125db or so), then dual 15 inch drivers or 18 inch drivers with a medium power pro amp are about what you will need. a couple jbl 2226h (15 inch) or 2242h (18 inch) drivers with a good pro amp will blow you out of your house. a simple combination of a pair of 2226H drivers ($330 ea) in an 8 cu ft enclosure tuned to 40hz and a cheap behringer ep2500 amp (~$300) will give you around 130db +/- in a house. as we have discussed, there are several companies that make drivers more or less comparable to the jbl's. 18sounds, b&c, rcf, bms, and electrovoice are some worth taking a look at.

if for some reason, you need more than that, several of the horn designs could work. it would seem these fall into the "wastefull-overkill" category for a home environment however. they will be 110db+ 1w sensitive in a home setting, which gives you upwards of 140db+ at 1000w. maybe somebody needs that much firepower, but probably not. of course, reduced distortion is always a benefit of overkill systems, but from what i have seen, i'm not sure that would really matter for these purposes (as a single 2242h can blast out over 120db mid-bass with less than 0.4% distortion in room).

i hope this helps.

I know looks is not everything, but I have always thought as JBL subs as cheap looking...but hey, thats just me.

Not the most awesome looking driver ever, but not bad..


http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc285/darrellsanders/Receiver005.jpg

mynym, if you are shooting for some good mid-bass slam, then it would seem that a good place to begin is to determine what spl you require. once you have determined that, then you can select a configuration that meets your requirements. there are many ways to skin the mid-bass cat. just remember to include light drivers with large magnets, which tend to be high efficiency designs and as tom danley noted try to avoid as best as possible sharp knees in the frequency response that cause large group delay as this may reduce the subjective slam of the system.

if you are shooting for relatively low spl (peaks in the vacinity of 115db) you might choose mains with pro audio 12-15 inch drivers covering the range from 50-150hz. this will provide more mid-bass slam than most 'audiophile' type speakers, so it would be a good start.

if you are shooting for higher spl (peaks of 120-125db or so), then dual 15 inch drivers or 18 inch drivers with a medium power pro amp are about what you will need. a couple jbl 2226h (15 inch) or 2242h (18 inch) drivers with a good pro amp will blow you out of your house. a simple combination of a pair of 2226H drivers ($330 ea) in an 8 cu ft enclosure tuned to 40hz and a cheap behringer ep2500 amp (~$300) will give you around 130db +/- in a house. as we have discussed, there are several companies that make drivers more or less comparable to the jbl's. 18sounds, b&c, rcf, bms, and electrovoice are some worth taking a look at.

if for some reason, you need more than that, several of the horn designs could work. it would seem these fall into the "wastefull-overkill" category for a home environment however. they will be 110db+ 1w sensitive in a home setting, which gives you upwards of 140db+ at 1000w. maybe somebody needs that much firepower, but probably not. of course, reduced distortion is always a benefit of overkill systems, but from what i have seen, i'm not sure that would really matter for these purposes (as a single 2242h can blast out over 120db mid-bass with less than 0.4% distortion in room).

i hope this helps.


Very good point.

I may be what many refer to as a "bass-head". I'm still in pursuit of the clean SPL I achieved in my younger years in Car Audio. 130 - 140dbs would would be nice.

I'm really intrigued with folded horns as I am familiar with how they sound. With Bill Fitzmaurice's designs it appears you can achieve some serious SPL in a pretty small package (relatively speaking) which IMHO fits my requirements for home use.

Thoughts?

One thing I'd like to mention is power compression which I think explains some of the benefits of horn loaded bass. It's not necessarily about overkill SPL.

I hope Tom doesn't mind me quoting him here and I'm more than happy to remove the post at toms request.

In real life, power compression begins on modern drivers, somewhere between 1 / 8 and 1 /10 rated power.

Quote taken from Tomservo (Tom Danley) over at AA.
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=110999&highlight=tomservo+power+compression&r=

Basically this is a form of nonlinear distortion where the driver's voice coil heats up causing the driver to become less efficient. In a nutshell this waters down the dynamics and drive of the music. Or in electrical terms that 1000watt driver stops getting any louder at 500watts and starts to compress the music as early as 100watts.

So if we horn load that same driver then we get an extra 10db of output before power compression kicks in. Of course we could just forget about horn loading and add more direct radiators, but that can get expensive.

130 - 140dbs would would be nice.
Thoughts?

130-140db for any length of time is going to cause permanent hearing damage. That's the hardest part of listening to my horns... being responsible with the volume control. :mad:

So if we horn load that same driver then we get an extra 10db of output before power compression kicks in. Of course we could just forget about horn loading and add more direct radiators, but that can get expensive.

Or another option would be some kind of cooling. I remember seeing the Pi subs with some kind of aluminum plate with a pipe that attatched to the pole piece of their driver? It increased the power handling, which also means reduced power compression.

One thing I'd like to mention is power compression which I think explains some of the benefits of horn loaded bass. It's not necessarily about overkill SPL.

I hope Tom doesn't mind me quoting him here and I'm more than happy to remove the post at toms request.



Quote taken from Tomservo (Tom Danley) over at AA.
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=110999&highlight=tomservo+power+compression&r=

Basically this is a form of nonlinear distortion where the driver's voice coil heats up causing the driver to become less efficient. In a nutshell this waters down the dynamics and drive of the music. Or in electrical terms that 1000watt driver stops getting any louder at 500watts and starts to compress the music as early as 100watts.

So if we horn load that same driver then we get an extra 10db of output before power compression kicks in. Of course we could just forget about horn loading and add more direct radiators, but that can get expensive.

this is a good point.

power compression definitely presents a challenge for high spl. jbl recognized this long ago and has engineered their transducers accordingly.

just to scale the problem...with 300 watts pink noise, the 2226h reaches steady state compression of around 2db.

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n18.pdf

just keep in mind that transients are not as effected by power compression, since they are very short in duration. much of the mid bass punch that we are talking about here is transient in nature. this is very different than the power compression of high average spl.

Or another option would be some kind of cooling. I remember seeing the Pi subs with some kind of aluminum plate with a pipe that attatched to the pole piece of their driver? It increased the power handling, which also means reduced power compression.

good point. another option that we see for enhancing cooling is to place the drivers with their a$$es facing outward. the jbl asb6128v which is designed for club use, prolonged periods of extreme spl, exemplifies this approach.

http://www2.jblpro.com/BackOffice/ProductPictures/b320bba5-1b9c-4e20-a6e7-b03eaa7aa395.jpg

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=172&MId=2

(as a single 2242h can blast out over 120db mid-bass with less than 0.4% distortion in room).

i hope this helps.

Hi bro, I quite doubt that, even with whatever room gain that the mid-bass region has, if any dimension of your room is that super small to begin with. Mid bass = 1 octave 40-80Hz right? (that's supposed to be technically correct). Or perhaps you could point me to whether you got that from (don't really see that on the PDF spec).

Mynym, it would be quite difficult to get what you experienced in car audio as a typical big room in your country has much less room gain. When Ricci put his RE sealed box into his vehicle the gain was absolutely humongous (do a search in the DIY section). But at least you won't get vibrating panels kinda sound (if you managed to hear that from all the din!). :D

Talking about tapped horns, anyway to do some advertising for DSL, there will be some new competition in the big boys arena, in the name of TH-212, TH-221, TH-812. Real performance data should be ready in a couple of weeks.
The TH-212 with 36x36x15 and goes slightly lower than the TH-115 should probably be suitable for home music use, duals would be nice and balance out the bass....the others are way too loud. Won't be cheap though, as DSL is gaining recognition nowadays.

2100, i'd call mid-bass roughly the range from 50-150hz. the 2242h puts out 113db at100hz with distortion at that level is down about 50db for both 2nd and 3rd harmonic. that is in 4pi space. theoretically, you get +3db for every 1/2 space reduction. so if you go from 4pi space to corner loaded in-room, you should pick up around 9db or so. so 113db + 9db = 121db. at 80hz, it would be a couple db less.

http://www2.jblpro.com/pub/components/2242.pdf

After having experienced Hi-FI audio systems compared to what I used to have when I DJ'd 15 years ago I'm really disappointed. I have 2 MFW's in a 12x16x8 room opening to the kitchen and for music they lack the bass punch I'm used to for HT they shake and rattle things but in music I'm missing something. Its really disapointing spending money on whats supposed to be top notch sound or overpowering and come back underwhelmed. This goes to all HIFI home cinemas I auditioned on specialty stores not only to MFW-15 that I are in perfect working condition. This thing about making subs "dissapear" is taking away from what's supposed to sound. Even the neighbor's kid has more bang with a single 15" on his car with music. And yes I feel it on my house 10ft away..!

Sorry to hear you're disappointed in your MFW's. I work with both home and professional audio equipment. Professional sound equipment for live concerts is designed for volume, impact and durability first, and accuracy last. That is the compromise they make to fill large areas. Accuracy is less important because most venues are not designed for sound.
I also have two MFW's in my theater/music room and their sound quality is much more accurate than the JBL subs I work with. The JBL subs can play louder but they are not effective below 30hz. they also peak around 60hz which is where you feel that slam in concerts. The point is good quality home audio tends to be more accurate than live sound systems and is closer to what you would see in a recording studio. You should be able to EQ your MFW's to get that sound you're looking for.

My theater/music room is 16'x39' with 9'ceilings and my stacked MFW's have no problem playing loud enough. My in room response is flat down to 13hz.

Professional sound equipment for live concerts is designed for volume, impact and durability first, and accuracy last. That is the compromise they make to fill large areas. Accuracy is less important because most venues are not designed for sound.
.

You are painting with a pretty broad brush there, Jay. You cant lump it all into one category. The equipment talked about in this thread from Danley, 18sound, and JBL don't fit your description at all.

Its like lumping Sony and Yamaha subs in with MFWs and ULS 15s.

Doesn't work.

theoretically, you get +3db for every 1/2 space reduction. so if you go from 4pi space to corner loaded in-room, you should pick up around 9db or so. so 113db + 9db = 121db. at 80hz, it would be a couple db less. [/url]

I see. Cool. Hmm....you gave me an idea, I'll try to measure what kind of SPL I get in room at any bass freq i'm interested in with 1 watt(good that Danley publishes the impedance curve) and i'll correspond that with the 2pi published sensitivity curve. In theory I should get +3dB as I am parking it right at the wall/floor boundary (firing the thing into the room at the doorway but not at the corner). :)

Professional sound equipment for live concerts is designed for volume, impact and durability first, and accuracy last.

this is inaccurate. :rolleyes:

jbl and many others take great pain to minimize distortion in their systems. they provide data sheets for their drivers and systems that show the various distortions (second and third harmonics, power compression, etc.). here are some examples that have been discussed here:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2226.pdf

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2242.pdf

as you can see, these drivers are down -40 to -50db (1% to 0.3% distortion) at over 110db at 100hz. further, they employ big motors and light moving masses.

we don't seem to be able to find similar data for the driver used in the mfw. can you provide a link? ;)

I see. Cool. Hmm....you gave me an idea, I'll try to measure what kind of SPL I get in room at any bass freq i'm interested in with 1 watt(good that Danley publishes the impedance curve) and i'll correspond that with the 2pi published sensitivity curve. In theory I should get +3dB as I am parking it right at the wall/floor boundary (firing the thing into the room at the doorway but not at the corner). :)

sounds good. make sure that you average across a sweep because at any one or two frequencies you might get faked out by modal/boundary peaks and nulls.

here is one example of how the 4645c (18" driver, ported enclosure) measures:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=130612&stc=1&d=1232553434

theoretically, the gain is +6db as you go from 4pi to 2pi space and another +6db from 2pi to 1pi, then another +6db from 1pi to 1/2pi, but that only seems to occur by the time that you get down to the lower bass (30hz or so), which is why i suggested +3db gain for the mid-bass for each halving of space. note that they have a 150hz low pass filter engaged which is why the top end rolls off. the driver itself is flat out way past 200hz on the high end.

same kind of thing happens with tweeters on baffles. theoretically, the baffle step transition should be 6db, but in reality many find 3-4db is what is measured.

this is inaccurate. :rolleyes:

jbl and many others take great pain to minimize distortion in their systems. they provide data sheets for their drivers and systems that show the various distortions (second and third harmonics, power compression, etc.). here are some examples that have been discussed here:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2226.pdf

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2242.pdf

as you can see, these drivers are down -40 to -50db (1% to 0.3% distortion) at over 110db at 100hz. further, they employ big motors and light moving masses.

we don't seem to be able to find similar data for the driver used in the mfw. can you provide a link? ;)

I did not mean to imply that JBL and other pro sound equipment has higher distortion or is of lesser quality. What I was trying to say is that the design goals are usually different between live sound and home audio equipment.
I'm familiar with the JBL drivers. I have used several of the SR series of subs. The JB 2226 driver for example has usable bass extension to about 40 hz compared to the MFW at about 17hz. I would never consider using MFW's for live sound because it's not capable of filling a larg room or area. I also would not consider using a Jbl pro sub for home audio because of it's limited extension. As far as data goes for the driver in the MFW you would probably need to ask Mark Seaton as I beleive it was custom design for him by Eminence.

You are painting with a pretty broad brush there, Jay. You cant lump it all into one category. The equipment talked about in this thread from Danley, 18sound, and JBL don't fit your description at all.

Its like lumping Sony and Yamaha subs in with MFWs and ULS 15s.

Doesn't work.

You are correct. There are always exceptions. I think I chose the wrong word when I said accuracy. Most of the JBL subs have limited extension below 35hz. The MFW and PB-13 easily extend below 20hz. The point I was trying to make is that home audio and PA systems generally have different goals. It's not about which is better. The pro subs like the JBL's are designed to cover larger rooms and give good quality bass and are usually very efficient. Home audio subs are usually designed for smaller rooms and extension is often a higher goal than efficiency.

The JBL cinema subs extend down to 22 hz in big cinemas and probably better in smaller rooms. I had two pro subs that were tuned to 25 hz(like the JBL) and in my room I would still get 110 db's at 15 hz. That was uncorrected, probably closer to 118 db's. Nothing wrong with that for any sub. Again I think pro subs kick serious butt(not all of them) for HT, just try it. I played that pulse scene with my pro subs which is a very low 15-20 hz sweep and hit 118-120 db's. Of course anything over 25 hz was at over 130 db's. It was awesome. Most small to medium rooms have room gain so these subs will benefit alot from that.

The pro subs like the JBL's are designed to cover larger rooms and give good quality bass and are usually very efficient. Home audio subs are usually designed for smaller rooms and extension is often a higher goal than efficiency.

to help clarify this point....jbl pro cinema systems are used to master most movie soundtracks in the first place and jbl pro cinema systems are designed to playback the entire soundtrack as it was mastered. most of these systems are tuned to around 25hz, which gives sub 20hz extension. jbl uses "home audio" style subwoofers in almost all of its consumer lines, many of which are quite disappointing. however, they are "small & pretty".

jbl steps up to "pro audio" style subwoofers in its top-of-the-line synthesis systems. they are ugly and meant for build in.

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/the_systems.aspx

the reason for this progression has nothing to do with "better extension" on the home subs. typical home subs are all about waf. the pro subs blow them to dust. however, pro subs have no waf.

if your goal is high spl sub-harmonics, frequencies less than about 20hz, then you really need drivers with huge xmax. this is where svs, epik, exodus, et al begin to achieve a _performance_ advantage. almost every pro audio driver will get blown to dust if trying to play 10hz even at moderate spl.

important to note however is that to take advantage of the large excursion capability, the enclosure must be sealed or a huge, low-tuned, ported, monster. if you put a super big xmax driver in a medium sized box and tune it to 20hz, you are wasting its design potential. you don't need super big xmax with a >20hz tuning and the driver will come undone much below 20hz anyway, so xmax down there doesn't help much.

the mfw is a good home sub. it plays deep and it looks pretty. it is of modest girth. it will (perhaps) beat the jbl pro sub for a couple of hz of extension. it is plug-n-play. it is a good value sub.

the jbl pro sub (s1s-ex / 4645c) will blow it away for spl, accuracy, efficiency/mid-bass punch, power handling, and power compression. it looks like a$$ and nobody would want one sitting in their living room. it has no on-board amp or controller, so requires more equipment and set-up expertise. it is an all-out performance sub.

both can be said to have met their design goals well, but suggesting that they are anywhere close to equal performers would be inaccurate.

Well put :)

The JBL cinema subs extend down to 22 hz in big cinemas and probably better in smaller rooms. I had two pro subs that were tuned to 25 hz(like the JBL) and in my room I would still get 110 db's at 15 hz. That was uncorrected, probably closer to 118 db's. Nothing wrong with that for any sub. Again I think pro subs kick serious butt(not all of them) for HT, just try it. I played that pulse scene with my pro subs which is a very low 15-20 hz sweep and hit 118-120 db's. Of course anything over 25 hz was at over 130 db's. It was awesome. Most small to medium rooms have room gain so these subs will benefit alot from that.

I thought the idea for a sub was to extend the lower frequencies without exaggerating any and maintaining an even response. By using your figures your sub has less than 1/2 the volume at 15 hz.
Why would any one want to listen to anything over 130db's?
If loudness is all that matters then for sure pro subs are better.
The idea that pro PA subs use better drivers than home subs is a joke.

You missed my point. The numbers I posted were uncorrected and with correction and EQ you are flat(+/-3db's) from 15-80hz with pro subs in MY room at a higher level than most commerical subs. Again I will state this, Comparing my SVS dual 16-46cs+ subs vs the pro subs I had(same money overall). The SVS subs are tuned to 16 hz, the pro subs to 25 hz. The difference was not only much more spl but much more midbass, tighter(more accurate), and no compression with the same effects at the low end. Everyone picked the prosubs over the SVS subs for a HT system. Now this is my room and I have great room gain. I now use 8 sealed DIY subs which lay waste to both, but the pro subs come close.

You are correct. There are always exceptions. I think I chose the wrong word when I said accuracy. Most of the JBL subs have limited extension below 35hz. The MFW and PB-13 easily extend below 20hz. The point I was trying to make is that home audio and PA systems generally have different goals. It's not about which is better. The pro subs like the JBL's are designed to cover larger rooms and give good quality bass and are usually very efficient. Home audio subs are usually designed for smaller rooms and extension is often a higher goal than efficiency.

I hope everyone doesn't dismiss jaytech's comments because there have been a select few pro subs getting some praise. I've tested and heard many pro audio subwoofers helping with at least 4 large comparison events. There are a few surprises out there, but it's important to remember those are more often exceptions rather than the rule. Many 18" pro subs start rolling off in the 45-55Hz range (not kidding). Many that are tuned lower for 30-35Hz extension have a drooping response that requires significant EQ to flatten (notice that JBL response above has a high pass with a Q=2!). Specification games can get pretty creative when there are many sales on the line.

One of the reasons I collaborated with Jeff Permanian of JTR was to help push a few more products to the pro audio world which had sound quality as a priority in the design. Until recently, most are designed first to be loud, then to not break, then be easy to transport, and again, to not break. Only later do they typically come back and see how good they can make it sound. :rolleyes:

Jaytech, you might enjoy a demo of some JTR or Danley products, as well as the YorkVille products using Danley's inventions (Unity series). All fill rather different niche's in the market, so keep in mind appropriate uses if you do get a chance to hear them.

There have been some promising trends with new products being introduced, but don't blindly assume that loud = good sound at low volume.

Hi Mark. I always tell people of my experiences in my room and never say it will do this in all rooms. I took a chance and it worked. I know not all subs are the same and some work better than others for certain applications. I have a medium sized room that is sealed with room gain that made sealed a front runner. The ported subs worked great but the sealed sound better to me. I don't even use EQ because how well the sealed work in my room. People tend to forget that JTR was intended for pro audio first(music) and always ask how they are. I know your catalysts and submersives come from the same background but with an emphasis on home applications(I think) which makes them the best of both worlds. I agree that most pro subs don't due justice for theater. I always look for a lower frequency response but that does not guarantee it will do what it says.

I hope everyone doesn't dismiss jaytech's comments because there have been a select few pro subs getting some praise.

But...Those "select" subs are really what this thread is about. I don't see why we keep getting sidetracked by junky PA stuff. We know its out there, so what?

As far as having to use EQ, the Submersive isn't using any? No LT? EQ is kind of a fact of life with subs, no?

Personally, I'm not looking to my JBL clone as a stand alone solution. I use it for the upper ranges because it sounds so much better in that range than anything I've heard. That said, if you'd like to gift me a couple Submersives, I'll set clone-boy out in the garage.

BTW, Jaytech, calling peoples opinions a joke isn't going to get you anywhere.

Read Marks post for an example of making a point without being a jerk. Thanks in advance.

Why would any one want to listen to anything over 130db's?

Um.....what is 130dBs at 10 meters....some of us have bigger rooms!! ;)


If loudness is all that matters then for sure pro subs are better.

Louder/clean sound (very low distortion) is what people should be striving for when building the ultimate theater....My main speakers have 12" pro drivers and they beat the crap out of weak comercial stuff!!! Not even a contest. People do not realize that true SPL dynamic ranges do matter....enjoy your comercial stuff, I want something better.


The idea that pro PA subs use better drivers than home subs is a joke.

Jaytek, you are obviously a NOOB with little knowledge if after 12 posts you are calling something a joke....go back and learn before you post again!

But...Those "select" subs are really what this thread is about. I don't see why we keep getting sidetracked by junky PA stuff. We know its out there, so what?

As far as having to use EQ, the Submersive isn't using any? No LT? EQ is kind of a fact of life with subs, no?

Personally, I'm not looking to my JBL clone as a stand alone solution. I use it for the upper ranges because it sounds so much better in that range than anything I've heard. That said, if you'd like to gift me a couple Submersives, I'll set clone-boy out in the garage.

BTW, Jaytech, calling peoples opinions a joke isn't going to get you anywhere.

Read Marks post for an example of making a point without being a jerk. Thanks in advance.

Hi Tack,

EQ is a very useful tool with subwoofers and offers many advantages, especially where gross size is even somewhat limited.

I honestly didn't have time to read all of the thread, which is why I might have contradicted some earlier topics. The use of EQ isn't a problem with a passive sub, but unless you are testing the fully powered system, it also leaves a lot of room for incorrect assumptions, especially in terms of output and power required to achieve it. A 2nd order HP with Q=2 is +6dB of gain near the corner frequency, or 4x the power.

There are some great pro drivers out there in the 12-18" size that will do a wonderful job above 30-50Hz and do it better than the vast majority of home subwoofers. The SubMersive needs its full 1kW of power to deliver what would be considered as a moderate to light-duty, "pro-audio" subwoofer above 35-40Hz (mid 120dB range @1m gp). Of course you need a much larger box or limited low frequency extension to get significantly louder. If you are building a subwoofer to not go lower than 35-50Hz which will be augmented, I would say in most cases that a few quality 15" drivers in the right location will trump the larger drivers in more manageable box sizes.

The part so often missed is that placement of the subwoofer and listener in a home environment makes a HUGE impact on the frequency range we are discussing. Case in point would be those not getting much "punch" from MFW-15s.

I hope everyone doesn't dismiss jaytech's comments because there have been a select few pro subs getting some praise. I've tested and heard many pro audio subwoofers helping with at least 4 large comparison events. There are a few surprises out there, but it's important to remember those are more often exceptions rather than the rule. Many 18" pro subs start rolling off in the 45-55Hz range (not kidding). Many that are tuned lower for 30-35Hz extension have a drooping response that requires significant EQ to flatten (notice that JBL response above has a high pass with a Q=2!). Specification games can get pretty creative when there are many sales on the line.

One of the reasons I collaborated with Jeff Permanian of JTR was to help push a few more products to the pro audio world which had sound quality as a priority in the design. Until recently, most are designed first to be loud, then to not break, then be easy to transport, and again, to not break. Only later do they typically come back and see how good they can make it sound. :rolleyes:

Jaytech, you might enjoy a demo of some JTR or Danley products, as well as the YorkVille products using Danley's inventions (Unity series). All fill rather different niche's in the market, so keep in mind appropriate uses if you do get a chance to hear them.

There have been some promising trends with new products being introduced, but don't blindly assume that loud = good sound at low volume.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the input. I will check out the latest products you suggest as I will be setting up a system for an auditorium that seats about 250.

My posts were to counter some suggestions that pro audio is more accurate and of higher quality than home audio. I know that you of all people realize that every design needs a goal and compromises to get there. I'm sure one could find a PA sub that works good in a home system but the design was intended for larger rooms and I believe limited extension was the compromise they used to get there. JBL uses -10db in their specs as usable low end response and it takes a lot of power to EQ that flat. I think there are a lot of people that prefer the 30-60hz bass boost and define that as good.

I really appreciate your design of the MFW. I have duals stacked in the front corner in my 6500 cu ft room and with the BFD EQ I get a fairly smooth response down to 12hz (-3db) :)

They sound great. I run the MRX500 rig for all my gigs and also use them in my house when not in use at gigs on weekends.
I absolutely love the MRX500s and they are my new reference for speakers, home audio or not.
http://www.youtube.com/user/spezzy
The accuracy and lack of audible distortion is fantastic. I get nothing but compliments on this rig for it's sound quality when out at gigs or when friends visit.

Although if you are going to buy some for home use I'd get a pair of the SRX728s as they dig a little bit deeper than the MRX 528s. It honestly isn't noticeable, I've AB'd both systems extensively, more time than I would like to divulge to the public. That is mainly why I chose the MRX over SRX, even though they were within budget.

Um.....what is 130dBs at 10 meters....some of us have bigger rooms!! ;)



Louder/clean sound (very low distortion) is what people should be striving for when building the ultimate theater....My main speakers have 12" pro drivers and they beat the crap out of weak comercial stuff!!! Not even a contest. People do not realize that true SPL dynamic ranges do matter....enjoy your comercial stuff, I want something better.



Jaytek, you are obviously a NOOB with little knowledge if after 12 posts you are calling something a joke....go back and learn before you post again!

I guess I haven't spent enough time learning about pro audio on this forum.
How is my statement any worse than you calling commercial stuff weak?
I've spent the last 20 years working with PA equipment and know it quite well. I never suggested either type of audio equipment as being inferior. just having different design goals. My statement was not meant to offend anyone, just to point out that something labeled pro, does not always mean it's superior. As far as people designing their own ultimate theater, I will offer my opinion if asked but leave the rest up to them.

Well actually the original poster did ask about home audio / music. That's where the punch thingy came about. :)

More about JBL for hifi.
http://www.audioheritage.org/

The most hardcore example I can think of is the Wilson XS subwoofer...costs usd18k, passive. Uses the seismic 8196 driver (its supposed to be pro arena, right?). Or the PMC's studio lines like XB3.

But after experiencing 7 SVSs in a small 1000cu ft room, I think one day i'd go into HT myself..... hope Mark's Terraform XL is within reach (and probably put it on wheels so that I can roll it and the TH-112 out of the storeroom when I have the need!). :D Actually on the really dynamic music stuff I am already pushing the boundaries of the TH-112.

Really would love to one day hear stuff like the Meyer X-10D. (only have the HD-1 here)

Actually on the really dynamic music stuff I am already pushing the boundaries of the TH-112.


Then you need the TH50 or the soon to be released TH-221.:D

My boss owns a rental hall and purchased a JBL MP418SP (http://www.jblpro.com/pub/mi/MP418SP.pdf) about 4 years ago for use on the dance floor. He put it in a storage closet about two years ago and hasn't used it since. I recently thought about trying it out in my living room as a mid-bass module for use with my dual av123 MFW-15 subwoofers. It is capable of very high output from around 45 Hz and up. It might be a fun experiment.

Then you need the TH50 or the soon to be released TH-221.:D

two 21"?


im guessing that's a small sub, lol.

The idea that pro PA subs use better drivers than home subs is a joke.

how did i miss this treasure?

please, oh please post your supporting evidence. :D

there are some great pro drivers out there in the 12-18" size that will do a wonderful job above 30-50hz and do it better than the vast majority of home subwoofers. The submersive needs its full 1kw of power to deliver what would be considered as a moderate to light-duty, "pro-audio" subwoofer above 35-40hz (mid 120db range @1m gp). Of course you need a much larger box or limited low frequency extension to get significantly louder. If you are building a subwoofer to not go lower than 35-50hz which will be augmented, i would say in most cases that a few quality 15" drivers in the right location will trump the larger drivers in more manageable box sizes.



+1

two 21"?
im guessing that's a small sub, lol.
My doors are just 32" width. I think the TH-221 half cut/Terraform XL would just make it so as to fire the port through the doorway. LOL! I could put it on a custom trolley board and roll it into the storeroom when I'm not using it.
But seriously nowadays the main factor for most must be economy/$$$. No money, no talk even if it has the best value out there.

Now back to making those new Audiopulses pls! LOL!