Hello there.....


Anybody got any news on what is happening with Wolf Cinema. They were the talk of the town a few months back but there is no new information online.

So does anyone know anything about product specs / brochures / Show appearances etc?


Cheers,


Iampaddy

Some insightful and persistent questioning seemed to scare them away.

Some insightful and persistent questioning seemed to scare them away.

All insightful questions were answered that were submitted by those not looking for the excitement of a very spirited discussion.
I don’t have time to be on here all day, I need to make projectors. :D

All insightful questions were answered that were submitted by those not looking for the excitement of a very spirited discussion.

I hope you didn't perceive people to be gratuitously, or unnecessarily, pugilistic.

Perhaps you could give me the less spirited version of your CR numbers. I was going to say "dispirited version", but didn't wish to appear preemptively presumptuous.:D

I don’t have time to be on here all day, I need to make projectors. :D

Im happy to hear that.

Did we get the on/off contrast of the unit posted here ?

Art

I don't think they post on/off :rolleyes:

We have posted on off and have it published on our spec sheet.

so here it is.... lifted right from the spec sheet 2,500- 50,000:1 full on/off ***

*** Depending on lamp power setting, installed iris and iris setting.

Once again it is a very flexible system with multiple options for contrast depending on light path set up.

Jim,
All the Wolf Cinema offerings are Xenon based PJs right? I vaguely remember that there were 4 offerings starting from 70K going up to 175K right?

We have posted on off and have it published on our spec sheet.

so here it is.... lifted right from the spec sheet 2,500- 50,000:1 full on/off ***

*** Depending on lamp power setting, installed iris and iris setting.

Once again it is a very flexible system with multiple options for contrast depending on light path set up.

Wow, 50,000:1 !

Art

I could get an infinite reading because my iris would allow me to choke off enough light so with the black reading the LS100 could not read it. Divide any number by zero and you come up with infinity. Not a real world theater application.

The beauty of the system is it allowed you to tune the projector to the screen and the room and allow for the best possible in room on screen contrast ratio.

$60k to $143K all Xenon

I spent a couple of hours with it over the course of the show.

The colors were spot on. And the gamma looks closer to film than I have ever seen. Why is that Jim? Is there really a film projector back there that you have magically figured out how to quiet down?

Xenon projector and quiet??? Hu

Well, it was quieter than any FILM projector I have ever heard... Almost digital, I'd say... If it weren't for the PQ...

We have posted on off and have it published on our spec sheet.

so here it is.... lifted right from the spec sheet 2,500- 50,000:1 full on/off ***

*** Depending on lamp power setting, installed iris and iris setting.

Once again it is a very flexible system with multiple options for contrast depending on light path set up.


I think CR numbers without corresponding lumen output does not tell the story, I know 2500 CR is with the Iris fully open, but at 50K:1 CR is there any light put out at all?

I think CR numbers without corresponding lumen output does not tell the story, I know 2500 CR is with the Iris fully open, but at 50K:1 CR is there any light put out at all?

I agree there isn't a lot of reason to believe that 50,000:1 is at a usable light level or even desirable based on iris side effects.

Art

I don’t have time to be on here all day, I need to make projectors. :D

I understand but I think coming in purely to add information and to dispell unfounded rumors say a few minutes a week .....

Art

Jim Burns Introduces WOLF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz1JcCUJMvo&feature=channel_page)

This is the place where detailed information is demanded. The problem is if you say A you are expected to tell the whole story.

On contrast and lumen
With the well known Infocus IN8x series the contrast is defined in two ways.
IN83
5000:1 or 15000:1
The 5000:1 is the static contrast with the manual iris closed down for maximum contrast and less lumen.
15000:1 compares white with the iris open with black when the iris is closed which is not fair but the number is correct.

Speculation on Wolf
Lets say they can achieve a static contrast of 2500-7500:1
Lets say the lumen is three times as high with the iris open.
Then we could measure 22500:1 sequential contrast.
At last with a lamp that can be varied in brightness with a factor a little over two we could measure about 50000:1 sequential from the projector.

As many have often stated the single measure of static contrast is not telling much of the story. Since DCI projectors can spec. 2000:1 publically I think others should have no fear in stating a probable static contrast of 6k:1 or close to that number.

The image at this price point will sell or not sell the projector.

Quite Frankly the Wolf was designed as a replacement for the Runco after the minor implosion at Runco since Sam left. Neither company worries about the forum too much, these type of customers are the most unloyal, change on a dime, and unfortunately easily influenced by specifications and measurements, not to mention spending avertion. Wolf relies on a custom installer base for which they believe they have good product for with superior value added. For Wolf's clientele is about Value and service, not specs and price.

To blindly pursue a contrast ratio of 20k whilst the image is nowhere near as solid and cinematic as in a 5k-1 dci goes to show you the level of obsessive insanity reached at the forum, I have an affinity for fellow forum members but I do not approve of their ridiculously biased LOW STANDARDS.

I am sure there is an audience out there that likes the Wolf, in what way are they any lesser wrong than you guys are? It's like the blind criticizing the blind. :D

Well at least they are still around. The folks at Projection Design @ CES all but wrote them off...

Quite Frankly thew Wolf was designed as a replacement for the Runco after the minor implosion at Runco since Sam left. Neither company worries about the forum too much, these type of customers are the most unloyal, change on a dime, and unfortunately easily influenced by specifications and measurements, not to mention spending avertion. Wolf relies on a custom installer base for which they believe they have good product for with superior value added. For Wolf's clientele is about Value and service, not specs and price.

To blindly pursue a contrast ratio of 20k whilst the image is nowhere near as solid and cinematic as in a 5k-1 dci goes to show you the level of obsessive insanity reached at the forum, I have an affinity for fellow forum members but I do not approve of their ridiculously biased LOW STANDARDS.

I am sure there is an audience out there that likes the Wolf, in what way are they any lesser wrong than you guys are? It's like the blind criticizing the blind. :D


Peter,
I think few would argue with most of this but if Jim posts here he needs to be forthright.

Art

I think CR numbers without corresponding lumen output does not tell the story, I know 2500 CR is with the Iris fully open, but at 50K:1 CR is there any light put out at all?I doubt they can get even close to 50k:1 static on/off CR by closing an iris if we are talking about DLP at this point (not JVC's chips) and if that was with a dynamic iris then it would likely be with a fair amount of light (since the iris can open for bright scenes).

BTW: I'm talking about an actual 50k:1. Doing measurements incorrectly (like measuring off a screen below where the meter is capable of reading) means those measurements tell us very little and aren't much of an argument against actual results.

--Darin

You are right I should get the lumen levels to go with the contrast ratios. Let me see if I still have access to them.

Let me be very clear here ON OFF CONTRAST is MEANINGLESS to ME. I look at the entire system room, furnishings screen and projector. I can tune the WOLF proctors to have the maximum contrast ratio the room will allow while hitting the DCI System Spec for lumens. In room in scene contrast is what is important. Peter is doing about the same thing with the Barcos. Someone asked what we had published and I answered. Take it however you want.
I feel strongly that contrast ratio is the most important quality of a good picture, however the specs on paper are as meaning full as how many watts an amp is…….. do more amps make a system better??? Maybe yes, maybe no but “system” is the key word.

Go look at the projector and tell me what you think, that is what is important.

My experience has been that there is a direct relationship beteen sequential contrast and image depth in low APL. Of course, ANSI is more important in higher APL. To say that you can tune it to a room using sequential contrast as the parameter isn't very accurate.



Art

Let me be very clear here ON OFF CONTRAST is MEANINGLESS to ME. I look at the entire system room, furnishings screen and projector. I can tune the WOLF proctors to have the maximum contrast ratio the room will allow while hitting the DCI System Spec for lumens.If there are no other lights in the room and no light coming in then the maximum contrast ratio the room will allow is visually infinite and so any on/off CR less than that from the projector means the projector is not allowing the maximum contrast ratio the room will allow. Simple physics.

Do your customers all have lights so that if the projector was turned off they could still see the screen?
In room in scene contrast is what is important.And on/off CR is relevant to that, so how could on/off CR be meaningless if that is what is important?

I'm not trying to be unkind, but I highly doubt this:

"I can tune the WOLF proctors to have the maximum contrast ratio the room will allow while hitting the DCI System Spec for lumens."

was a true statement.
Go look at the projector and tell me what you think, that is what is important.The same argument could be made for lumens, color, etc. Are lumens meaningless to you? How about color balance from the projector?

I understand if you don't want to spend time really discussing this, but this is a technical site and I won't apologize for discussing the actual physics. Of course the actual images are what matter, but some of these things tell us a fair amount about at least some places where the images are going to be limited (like color primaries, on/off CR, resolution, etc.).

I know that in the past some students were misled by a teacher of ISF courses downplaying on/off CR because he didn't comprehend it, but I don't know how widespread misinformation like that people can only see 1200:1 and so 15k:1 on/off CR is hard to believe was amongst ISF teachers.

--Darin

Darin, you are simply wrong, did not read your post after your simply physics statement. Light bouncing off the screen and around the room lowers contrast ratio. I design projectors for clients to use in homes not theoretical black space, or Dan Millers old theater ;)

So you disagree, I can live with that. I still like most of the projectors I have had a hand in and I have done some cool things that have positively changed the industry.

I think if you guys saw what I do during set up you would get it. Maybe at a CEDIA in the future we can do that. I am saying that when I watch TV or a movie in scene in room contrast is what matters.

I will go back to making projectors now.....

Darin, you are simply wrong, did not read your post after your simply physics statement. Light bouncing off the screen and around the room lowers contrast ratio.I am right and it is simple physics. I said on/off CR, not just CR, and light bouncing around the room lowers ANSI CR, not on/off CR. *

* I should have said other than minor color balance issues (like red having on/off CR different than white and the room being red) and thought I had, but that is a very minor issue and I was trying to keep things simple enough.
I design projectors for clients to use in homes not theoretical black space, or Dan Millers old theater ;)You are really making me wonder if you understand the physics. Even in a white room on/off CR will be the same as the projector if there is no other light and the minor color balance issues of different primaries having different on/off CRs that I mentioned above which can raise or lower the white on/off CR off the screen slightly isn't included. Even if the reflections in the room added 10% to the images the on/off CR would be the same because 1.1x/1.1y is the same as x/y.
So you disagree, I can live with that.You should at least understand the simple things that you don't need a black room to get the on/off CR of the projector off the screen and that this on/off CR is relevant to the in room in scene contrast that you said was important. The room lowers ANSI CR and so a light colored room does lower the number of scenes where on/off CR is a significant (and even dominant) factor toward in room in scene contrast ratio, but it doesn't get rid of those cases. Especially when the average movie scene is so much dimmer than the ANSI CR pattern.

Dark scenes mean a lot less light bouncing around the room and so on/off CR can definitely be the dominant factor even with lowered ANSI CR from the light colored room.

If you disagree and think that you need a black room for on/off CR to be relevant to in room in scene contrast, feel free to explain.

For others. This is a simple thing that I think people should understand. Even light colored rooms do not mean that on/off CR doesn't matter. Other lighting in the room or coming in largely does mean that the on/off CR of the projector is less important than the lumens, since lumens are needed to fight that other lighting and retain on/off CR off the screen.

Again, not trying to be mean, but the ISF organization has misled a lot of people (I'm not saying on purpose, but through misunderstanding) and you are a consultant to that group. I wish somebody there had corrected Kevin Miller when he said things like that humans can only see 1200:1 and so a 15k:1 on/off CR claim was hard to believe, so that he wouldn't have misled others. I hope he understands the subject now.

You're statements above make me wonder if you understand that the limited on/off CRs of your projectors are limiting the in room in scene contrast ratios people get in many scenes, even if they have light colored rooms, as long as they don't have other lighting.

--Darin

For others who want to understand this subject matter, here is a good calculator for playing with some estimates with the ANSI CR pattern and some real scenes:

http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/intrascene.htm

Some will argue that on/off CR doesn't matter to in room in scene CR in anything but black rooms, but people playing with that calculator that includes a room reflection factor should be able to see otherwise. And that isn't even including the blackout factor where the on/off CR is very relevant to what happens with images that go to full black (even in white rooms, if there isn't other lighting).

As far as what room reflection values to use, I can get close to 100:1 ANSI CR off the screen with the right screen (say a Firehawk) even in my off-white walled living room from a projector with about 500:1 ANSI CR, so the room reflection value for that calculator looks like it should be a little under 0.02 for those conditions.

This calculator is also a good one:

http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/contrast.htm

--Darin

Quite Frankly the Wolf was designed as a replacement for the Runco after the minor implosion at Runco since Sam left. Neither company worries about the forum too much, these type of customers are the most unloyal, change on a dime, and unfortunately easily influenced by specifications and measurements, not to mention spending avertion. Wolf relies on a custom installer base for which they believe they have good product for with superior value added. For Wolf's clientele is about Value and service, not specs and price.

To blindly pursue a contrast ratio of 20k whilst the image is nowhere near as solid and cinematic as in a 5k-1 dci goes to show you the level of obsessive insanity reached at the forum, I have an affinity for fellow forum members but I do not approve of their ridiculously biased LOW STANDARDS.

I am sure there is an audience out there that likes the Wolf, in what way are they any lesser wrong than you guys are? It's like the blind criticizing the blind. :D

I guess that begs the question,Peter "Do you like the Wolf?"
I recall you went to the CEDIA demo.

I would say I like it as much as the Titan Reference. I do appreciate the ventilation options. I am just not too crazy about the way Christie based projectors (excluding the new M series- which IHNS) show a little pixel noise that I have called pastiness, the Wolf in my eye reduced the pastiness more effectively than any others before but you can still see the "fingerprint" in the one shown on the Stewart booth for example, despite the fact there it creamed the HT5000 and even the Titan.

It is one of the better 1920 x1080 out there, I just have a hard time enjoying this class of projector after seeing Prometheus where the screen projector combination acts like 70mm. More so than Helene's which I was already calling lossless 70mm.:D

I would say I like it as much as the Titan Reference. I do appreciate the ventilation options. I am just not too crazy about the way Christie based projectors (excluding the new M series- which IHNS) show a little pixel noise that I have called pastiness, the Wolf in my eye reduced the pastiness more effectively than any others before but you can still see the "fingerprint" in the one shown on the Stewart booth for example, despite the fact there it creamed the HT5000 and even the Titan.

It is one of the better 1920 x1080 out there, I just have a hard time enjoying this class of projector after seeing Prometheus where the screen projector combination acts like 70mm. More so than Helene's which I was already calling lossless 70mm.:D

Quite a dance there.

Art

I may be dancing but I am the lone forum member that admits faults with his projector. You and CM on the other hand defend the HT5000 tooth and nail where to me eyes that projector and it's Runco vx22 sister are clearly the 2 projectors that should not have been.

I would say I like it as much as the Titan Reference. I do appreciate the ventilation options. I am just not too crazy about the way Christie based projectors (excluding the new M series- which IHNS) show a little pixel noise that I have called pastiness, the Wolf in my eye reduced the pastiness more effectively than any others before but you can still see the "fingerprint" in the one shown on the Stewart booth for example, despite the fact there it creamed the HT5000 and even the Titan.

It is one of the better 1920 x1080 out there, I just have a hard time enjoying this class of projector after seeing Prometheus where the screen projector combination acts like 70mm. More so than Helene's which I was already calling lossless 70mm.:D

I may have seen the pastiness at Wolf's CES demo. I thought something like what you describe was noticeable on Jimmy Stewart's face during a "How the West was Won" sequence. Not a deal breaker I would say.It may have even been the film transfer,not the projector.Wonderful video overall
The Wolf seems appealing in it's stated and obvious attempt to maintain high reliability as well as basically state of the art video performance.As mentioned the custom cooling design is a big part of that.
I saw the Meridian at CES as well. William Phelps has a hand in setting each one up. The increased resolution was noticeable compared to 1920 by 1080 DLPs,but the additional $100k (roughly) did not seem worth it.A little too early to spec in 4k, I would say.
I also have a feeling support will be better from Wolf.

I may be dancing but I am the lone forum member that admits faults with his projector. You and CM on the other hand defend the HT5000 tooth and nail where to me eyes that projector and it's Runco vx22 sister are clearly the 2 projectors that should not have been.I see both of them admitting faults with their projectors, but not willing to sign on to just any fault without some reasonable evidence.

--Darin

I would say I like it as much as the Titan Reference. I do appreciate the ventilation options. I am just not too crazy about the way Christie based projectors (excluding the new M series- which IHNS) show a little pixel noise that I have called pastiness, the Wolf in my eye reduced the pastiness more effectively than any others before but you can still see the "fingerprint" in the one shown on the Stewart booth for example, despite the fact there it creamed the HT5000 and even the Titan.

It is one of the better 1920 x1080 out there, I just have a hard time enjoying this class of projector after seeing Prometheus where the screen projector combination acts like 70mm. More so than Helene's which I was already calling lossless 70mm.:D

Peter:

What is IHNS?

Peter:

What is IHNS?

Internet acronym dictionary says I Have Not Seen

Art

Thanks

Darin, you are simply wrong, did not read your post after your simply physics statement. Light bouncing off the screen and around the room lowers contrast ratio. I design projectors for clients to use in homes not theoretical black space, or Dan Millers old theater ;)

So you disagree, I can live with that. I still like most of the projectors I have had a hand in and I have done some cool things that have positively changed the industry.

I think if you guys saw what I do during set up you would get it. Maybe at a CEDIA in the future we can do that. I am saying that when I watch TV or a movie in scene in room contrast is what matters.

I will go back to making projectors now.....I am going to address some more about this post, especially the "did not read your post after your simply physics statement." You either didn't understand what I said or don't understand the subject matter and if you were just an owner of a projector company it would be one thing, but you either are or have been a consultant to ISF and a teacher of ISF courses. I think your proverbial putting your fingers in you're ears or taking your ball and going home is pretty disappointing from somebody in that position. We all have things we don't understand, but this has moved into willful ignorance at this point with your refusing to read the rest because you misguidedly thought that I hadn't taken reflections into account or you didn't realize that they don't negate what I said.

I see from a link that you have an Electrical Engineering degree, which is the field my degree is in, and I expect that you had to take some Physics courses and courses where you learned about margin of error. I'm asking you to apply some of that, although I think I had probably learned most of the math required to figure out that on/off CR still matters in a white room, if there isn't other lighting, much earlier in school.

It is beyond me how an organization like ISF that is supposed to be teaching people about video got so misguided about one subject matter. As an example, one of the current teachers (Kevin Miller) writing the misguided:

http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-front-projectors/hd-ila-projectors/jvc-dla-rs1-hd-ila-lcos-video-projector-2.html
The RS1 is rated at a difficult-to-believe 15000:1. You may be interested to know that the human eye can’t see more than about 1200:1, and so if you get a real-world contrast ratio of 500 or 600:1, that is simply amazing, even for the most expensive high light output video projectors.I would have hoped that other people in the organization would have straightened him out on that long ago, but maybe this started with somebody in the organization and others ended up misled by them. If teachers played the proverbial sticking their fingers in their ears if a student brought up the problems with things like the above then I can understand how those teachers never would have learned.

And this has nothing to do with whether you like most of the projectors you have had a hand in and I'm sure you have done good things for the industry. This is about understanding how the physics work and not closing you eyes or mind when you are wrong about something (as you were when you claimed that my statement wasn't true and as you are when you claim you can get the projectors to maximum contrast ratio the room will allow, unless all your customers have lights on or light coming in and lighting up the screen).
I think if you guys saw what I do during set up you would get it.You've already explained a thing you do with a 50 IRE window where you claimed that maximizes the CR and again, the physics are the physics and that wasn't true if you don't have other room lighting (and even then I don't think it is true, but we could discuss a specific case).

As far as "you would get it" , maybe you would get that on/off CR is relevant to in room contrast that you continue to claim is what matters, if you didn't refuse to read beyond what you misguidedly thought wasn't true and instead stuck around and discussed the actual subject.

In the meantime, people may get a great projector going with Wolf, but if they don't have other lighting and they are told that the projector isn't limiting their CRs with real content then they are being misled.

I'm going to run through an example with a real image. This is just an estimator, but pretty good for getting an idea of what is going to happen IMO. Starting with this estimator here:

http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/intrascene.htm

Let's try this for a room that is very bad for retaining ANSI CR (like a white room) and a screen that is also not very good at retaining ANSI CR. Put in the following numbers:

Projector A:
6000:1 on/off CR
500:1 ANSI CR
2.2 gamma

Projector B:
1000000:1 on/off CR
500:1 ANSI CR
2.2 gamma

0.05 room gain

Now hit "Calculate values below".

We can see the the room gain is so bad that the ANSI CR from the projectors of 500:1 ends up only being 38:1 off the screen by their count. Yet even for this bad situation as far as reflections the "Star Field" entry shows 2183:1 for Projector A and 9093:1 for Projector B. Modify things like put in a screen that is good for retaining ANSI CR (DNP SuperNova .8 gain or Stewart Firehawk for instance) and if that can get the ANSI CR to 84:1, or a room gain of 0.02, then this will show the Star Field at 2873:1 for Projector A and 20094:1 for Projector B. As I said previously, "a light colored room does lower the number of scenes where on/off CR is a significant (and even dominant) factor toward in room in scene contrast ratio, but it doesn't get rid of those cases."

And on/off CR isn't just about white and black in the images. In the absence of dynamic systems (dynamic irises and/or dynamic gammas) the white level and gamma determine other levels like 10%stim (or 10 IRE with 0 base). And there are real scenes where the brightest things are 10%stim or under. If we use this contrast calculator:

http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/contrast.htm

we can run some estimates for some dark mixed images. Try putting the same values as above in for Projector A and B as well as the 0.05 for room gain, leave the % of screen covered at 100 and the estimator will give the following for the 10% checkerboard (with rounded figures):

Projector A: 22:1
Projector B: 38:1

Now change the screen area covered by the checkerboard to 25% and the numbers change to:

Projector A: 38:1
Projector B: 145:1

Now add in the better screen and change room gain to 0.02 and the last numbers change to:

Projector A: 46:1
Projector B: 317:1

The numbers for the 20% level aren't as different, but still show a significant difference at:

Projector A: 126:1
Projector B: 329:1

In short, if a person cares about in room in scene contrast ratio, then without other lights lighting up the screen they should care about on/off CR of the projector. How much they care is up to them, but they should first understand that it does matter to what happens with real images.

For others, please don't let anybody mislead you into believing that you have to have black walls for on/off CR of the projector to matter to real images.

--Darin

We have posted on off and have it published on our spec sheet.

so here it is.... lifted right from the spec sheet 2,500- 50,000:1 full on/off ***

*** Depending on lamp power setting, installed iris and iris setting.

Once again it is a very flexible system with multiple options for contrast depending on light path set up.

I think CR numbers without corresponding lumen output does not tell the story, I know 2500 CR is with the Iris fully open, but at 50K:1 CR is there any light put out at all?


So, let me be blunt I call Bullsh_t