I just received the engineering data from Channel Master on the new 4221HD and the 4228HD models imported from China that replaced the tried and true US made versions.

Some of the figures seem inconsistant. I have not yet inquired about this, but will.

The 4228 stats show slightly weaker gain overall, but with a flatter response to both UHF and upper VHF compared to the original. Hopefully, sites like HDTV Primer will eventually model these.

It's too bad they didn't publish stats for 7-13 as re the 4221.

Thanks for posting these. I had looked on their website and could not find them. My parents need an antenna to pick up OTA stations that are about 120 degrees from each other. If I can't get good reception for them with the 4228 as shipped, what should I expect to happen if I "folded" the 4228 vertically along its centerline so that the left half of the bow ties point to one transmitter and the right half of the bow ties point to the other transmitter? The alternative might be to buy two separate antennas and combine them with equal length leads but I would like to hear thoughts on vertically folding the 4228.

Here is the whole table that includes the orginal 4221/4228.

I contacted CM questioning some of the figures. Noteably, the very wide BW on ch 11 (4228HD), the very narrow BW on ch. 35 & especially ch. 27 (4221HD) and a few other inconsistencies that are probably typo's.

Looking at just the gain figures, the 4221HD is just as good as the 4228HD, the difference being poorer F/B ratios. :confused:

what should I expect to happen if I "folded" the 4228 vertically along its centerline so that the left half of the bow ties point to one transmitter and the right half of the bow ties point to the other transmitter?

1) You'd break the transmission lines and get nothing.

2) assuming you worked around problem #1, you'd most likely create a whole bunch of ghosts a/o wacky peaks and nulls in the response pattern.

In short, not a good idea.

In short, not a good idea.

Thanks for the reply. I guess I'll keep my fingers crossed that I can find an antenna and position it so that it will pick up both directions satisfactorily.

Jeff

Thanks for the reply. I guess I'll keep my fingers crossed that I can find an antenna and position it so that it will pick up both directions satisfactorily.

Jeff

It depends on how strong the stations are. You can take 2 4221s and stack them horizontally and phase them so they no longer have a strong center lobe, but dual or quad forward lobes.

According to the chart at HDTVPrimer is works ok, up to about a 60 degree spread on the first lobe with no center lobe. And up to about 120 degrees on the second lobes, if they are feed out of phase with each other and the correct distance per channel.

That is a lot of ifs to get right. I don't know anyone that actually tried it.

At 120 degrees, if out of phase you would be on the secondary lobes. That actually falls off their displacement chart. So you might have nothing more than a unity gain directional antenna array.

If there is a station between them you could run them in phase and try and adjust the first side lobes for the 120 degree spread. Again, you won't have any gain when you are done.

Myself if I didn't want a rotor would be inclined to buy 2 UHF log-yagis and point them 120 degrees apart, pray you don't get mulitpath or try and adjust the 2 so you don't.

Here is a page with the phasing info

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html

Cool. This is very helpful. If the single antenna doesn't work, I'll give the 2 antenna approach a try.

Cool. This is very helpful. If the single antenna doesn't work, I'll give the 2 antenna approach a try.

When looking at the chart, remember it's hard to get 2 UHF antennas stacked horizontal much closer than 20 inches.

That is why I suggested just point two yagis.

Another way that is less experimental is to run 2 coaxes , one from each antenna and put an antenna switch by the TV. Then you have less trouble making sure you don't get mulitpath. That would be a good thing to try if you can't get two into a combiner to work the way you want.

I just received the engineering data from Channel Master on the new 4221HD and the 4228HD models imported from China that replaced the tried and true US made versions.

Some of the figures seem inconsistant. I have not yet inquired about this, but will.

So, would I be wiser to purchase the older 4221 instead of the newer "HD" version? The furthest station is 30 miles from my location.

So, would I be wiser to purchase the older 4221 ... ?

Yep ... get 'em while you can.

...Looking at just the gain figures, the 4221HD is just as good as the 4228HD...Except for VHF 7 thru 13 on the 4221HD, which isn't known. I have two channels in this band, and would like to know what gain (if any) the 4221HD has for those.

Yep ... get 'em while you can.

Well, I found they are increasingly harder to find online. I did notice that ACE Hardware shows them in stock on their "superstore" website. So, I called my local ACE and they don't carry them, but can order them in for $32.

Should be here next Wed.

Well, I found they are increasingly harder to find online. I did notice that ACE Hardware shows them in stock on their "superstore" website. So, I called my local ACE and they don't carry them, but can order them in for $32.

Yep ... that's a good place to look for them. In the past, my local ACE usually had one or two in stock, but I haven't been in that store for awhile so things might be different.

Well, I found they are increasingly harder to find online. I did notice that ACE Hardware shows them in stock on their "superstore" website. So, I called my local ACE and they don't carry them, but can order them in for $32.

Should be here next Wed.

I probably bought my second one from the same source. Arrived as expected. I think it was near $40 with my shipping to Florida.

Except for VHF 7 thru 13 on the 4221HD, which isn't known. I have two channels in this band, and would like to know what gain (if any) the 4221HD has for those.

It has a teeny tiny bit of performance on 11, 12 , 13, but not enough to say it works. Not enough to even publish engineering specs.

Lets say you have a ton of signal on VHF (-20dbm) it might work.

If asked yes or no, the answer in no, it's doesn't have any VHF properties.

It has a teeny tiny bit of performance on 11, 12 , 13, but not enough to say it works. Not enough to even publish engineering specs.

Lets say you have a ton of signal on VHF (-20dbm) it might work.

If asked yes or no, the answer in no, it's doesn't have any VHF properties.
Thanks.

If you wade through the Build a UHF antenna thread you will see the screen and whiskers are too short on the HD4221 to be of any use on VHF.

In that price range Winegard has the new 759xP series that is priced decent.

Well, I found they are increasingly harder to find online. I did notice that ACE Hardware shows them in stock on their "superstore" website. So, I called my local ACE and they don't carry them, but can order them in for $32.

Should be here next Wed.

Well, called them up and it didn't come in. They said the warehouse was out and would ship when they got restocked. Considering they aren't produced anymore, I bought one from onestopshopcatalog.com instead.

BTW, I did try ordering it from the ACE online superstore, but couldn't get through to a single person. Even their customer service extension came back as "unavailable at this time." :confused:

I just received the engineering data from Channel Master on the new 4221HD and the 4228HD models imported from China that replaced the tried and true US made versions.

Some of the figures seem inconsistant. I have not yet inquired about this, but will.

I dont want to get to political here. But consider the US made ones were less expensive. Why even consider these antennas any more.

Are the DB4 and 8 made in America still? They are a better price. For most people unless they are 10 miles or less from a VHF there isn't enough VHF reception from them to consider them a VHF antenna.

Are the DB4 and 8 made in America still?Regardless of where they are made, I will not to buy from a company that puts out misleading gain numbers (in dbi instead of lower dba numbers), like antennas direct does. They also state that their UHF antennas are optimized for all post-analog DTV frequencies. What a crock.

They are traveling the country in their snake-oil bus (http://www.kfsm.com/Global/story.asp?S=9700014&nav=menu151_2_9), telling people they must have a digital antenna to get digital TV. There is no such thing as a digital antenna.

So, would I be wiser to purchase the older 4221 instead of the newer "HD" version? The furthest station is 30 miles from my location.

Taking the data at face value, the 4221HD is _better_ than the 4221 across most of the band, while the 4228HD is not as good as the 4228.

Regardless of where they are made, I will not to buy from a company that puts out misleading gain numbers (in dbi instead of lower dba numbers), like antennas direct does. They also state that their UHF antennas are optimized for all post-analog DTV frequencies. What a crock.

They are traveling the country in their snake-oil bus (http://www.kfsm.com/Global/story.asp?S=9700014&nav=menu151_2_9), telling people they must have a digital antenna to get digital TV. There is no such thing as a digital antenna.

Yes, I think the antennas direct people went to the monster cable marketing classes. (Calling the DB8 a "multidirectional antenna" is really stretching things). It's a pity because they have some good (if often overpriced) products. I notice for the DB8 they are claiming improved gain and enhanced VHF-hi performance for 2009 which implies there has been some redesign. It will be interesting to see the results of real testing on the "2009 DB8".
IMHO the CM product range is usually a better performer than the equivalent DB series and less expensive.

They are traveling the country in their snake-oil bus (http://www.kfsm.com/Global/story.asp?S=9700014&nav=menu151_2_9), telling people they must have a digital antenna to get digital TV. There is no such thing as a digital antenna.

They came here last weekend. I didn't realize how bad their marketing was. When I bought my antennas last year, the CM4221 was half the price of a DB4, and so close to the same specs, there was no reason and I do remember feeling all the momentum to the DB4 and DB8 was mostly hype. Seeming the people I read here that did modeling didn't have that prejudice toward the DB series but explained the differences.

In the UHF Antenna thread someone recently modeled antennas included the Winegard 4 bay. I used to be a Channel Master fan boy from time to time. When I was young they made some of the best but where over priced. Then lately they were pretty good. Now with this move to their new line they doubled their prices, but didn't double the antenna.

I have become a Winegard fan boy if I were pushed to endorse any company.

I see it this way. Channel Master moved to China, came out with the same thing in a make over.

Winegard this year released half a dozen truly new designs from the HD1080 to their 769xP series.

AntennaCraft that I used to consider a cheap antenna actually in the current market is not to be dismissed. They make a number of good antennas at a good price. Their FM6, FMSS, Y-5-7-13 are all good antennas. But for a larger VHF high band I suggest people get the Winegard 1713. But back to UHF, there are so few people using the phased array Winegard UHFs like their 4 bay, there really isn't much real world data to go on from them in the field.

Regardless of where they are made, I will not to buy from a company that puts out misleading gain numbers (in dbi instead of lower dba numbers), like antennas direct does. They also state that their UHF antennas are optimized for all post-analog DTV frequencies. What a crock.

They (AD) appear to be wildly optimistic even when you account for the difference between dBi and dBd. 21dB for a tiny 3 or 4 element VHF yagi? I'd like some of what they're smoking please. :D

They (AD) appear to be wildly optimistic even when you account for the difference between dBi and dBd. 21dB for a tiny 3 or 4 element VHF yagi? I'd like some of what they're smoking please. :D

Score board

Channel Master moved off shore in the middle of a recession when we need jobs.

Antennas Direct is hype

That still leave needing to find some scoop on Winegard and AntennaCraft

...That still leave needing to find some scoop on Winegard and AntennaCraftPurely anecdotal experience with a new Winegard:

Today, I installed a Winegard HD7694P for a friend. He's 45 miles from the channels he wanted (RF 9, 15, 18. Another station on RF 50 is 80° off-axis and ~6 miles away.

We did not use a preamp and the antenna feed is split to two TVs. The Zenith DTT901s showed "strong" signal on all the above channels.

Also VHF ch 10, was coming in strong off the back side of the antenna. Ch 10 is 75 miles away.

The HD7694P seems to be a good performer, at least for the channels in our area. YMMV, of course.

Well, called them up and it didn't come in. They said the warehouse was out and would ship when they got restocked. Considering they aren't produced anymore, I bought one from onestopshopcatalog.com instead.

BTW, I did try ordering it from the ACE online superstore, but couldn't get through to a single person. Even their customer service extension came back as "unavailable at this time." :confused:

Well, another strike. Got the box yesterday, and was a little surprised to find it came from ACE, when I ordered it from onestopshop. Opened it up, and it was the 4221HD, not the 4221. Emailed them, and they kindly explained that the 4221HD was the replacement for the 4221, and was a more expensive model. I was more than welcome to keep it at the same price I paid, or I could return it. FedEx will be picking it up tomorrow.

So, I still need an antenna and I'm open to suggestions. My antennaweb pic is attached for reference. Please keep in mind the hole to my attic is about 23" wide at the diagonal so unless the antenna can be easily dismantled, it will have to fit within that dimension.

Suggestions?

I also ordered from ACEhardwareoutlet, and refused delivery on the 4221HD Chinese version they shipped. Working out the refund details now. I recommended they change the photo and the nomenclature on they web page so as to avoid future costumer confusion and mix ups.

Sad.

There's 3 4221's on ebay from a seller in Georgia.

Thanks for the tip. Quizzed him and they are as pictured the old style American made. Picked one up.

I have an original 4228 on the roof with a 777 pre-amp. Metro Atlanta area. We have two high VHF stations, one on 8 and one on 10. The 4228 does OK on 10, but does not seem to do well on 8. I have significant attentuation due to Kennesaw Mountain being close by and in my line of site to all Atlanta stations.

So, I see two options to improve my hi-VHF reception.

1) Get a seperate hi-VHF antenna (1713 - very long...or... HD-1080 - enough gain??) and use seperate VHF and UHF feeds to the pre-amp
2) get the 4228-HD to replace existing 4228.

My concern with 2 is losing a touch of gain on UHF. I am thinking the 1713 is the best option. 9 or 10 dB of VHF gain versus about 5 dB with the 4228HD

Thoughts?

I just wanted to let everyone know that I purchased a 4228HD for my parents house and installed it. I was concerned because most of their stations, 1 VHF and about 5 UHF stations, are located at 300 degrees but one VHF station is located at 70 degrees from their house. I was afraid that I might need to point the 4228HD at 300 degrees and buy a VHF only antenna to get the station at 70 degrees due to the directionality of the 4228HD. However, by pointing the 4228HD to about 340 degrees, we are able to pick up all of the stations with strong signals.

HDTV Primer has a new (temporary) page up about the 4228HD and the new DB8.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

In short:

The bad news is that the new 4228HD and DB-8 are both wrecks. The good news is that the 4228HD can easily be turned into the best UHF antenna presently available.

As delivered, the 4228HD is a good antenna below channel 30, but above channel 40 it is no better than a 4-bay.

Fortunately fixing it is trivial: You just replace the phasing harness with two baluns and a combiner. Those plus two short cables will cost you another $25, but a nut-driver is the only tool you need. If the loss in the baluns and combiner is 0.5 dB then the performance will be 0.5 dB less than the B3 plot above.