"Today at CES, Sony announced five new high definition camcorders—four in the hard disk drive (HDD) category and one in the flash memory category. The four new HDD camcorders are the HDR-XR520, the HDR-XR500, the HDR-XR200, and the HDR-XR100. Sony's new high definition flash camcorder will be the HDR-CX100. All five new models will record in full 1920 x 1080 in the AVCHD format."


Camcorderinfo
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-Unveils-Five-Big-New-HD-Camcorder-HDR-XR520-HDR-XR500-HDR-XR200-HDR-XR100-and-HDR-CX100-35980.htm#

thanks for the link!

so much info is missing... what bitrate, what zoom on the top of the line camcorders, etc... but i guess that we'll see it sooner or later.

If you visit www.sonystyle.com, the specs for the xr520v is a 1/2.88" sensor.:)

These are the much hyped 'green magic marker' sensors, in which the back side electronics are anodized in black to reduce reflected light from bouncing around. Remember those block diagrams that were all the rage? I'll believe when I see it.

The only feature of interest is the gps tagging, at least there will be no contention in a firefight where the war is raging.

thanks for the link!

so much info is missing... what bitrate, what zoom on the top of the line camcorders, etc... but i guess that we'll see it sooner or later.
Camcorders



Sony HDR-XR520V 240GB High-Definition Hard Disk Drive Handycam® Camcorder

Available in March for about $1500

Full 1920x1080 high-definition video recording and 12-megapixel still image capture
Large capacity 240GB hard drive holds up to 101 hours of HD video (LP mode)
New back-illuminated Exmor R™ CMOS sensor improves sensitivity in low light conditions
Photo and video geo-tagging using built-in GPS receiver and NAVTEQ® digital maps
Improved Optical Steady Shot with Active Mode stabilization for smooth video and photos
Smile Shutter™ automatically takes photos when subject smiles, even while shooting HD video
Face detection technology recognizes up to eight faces and automatically corrects focus, exposure and color control


Sony HDR-XR500V 120GB High-Definition Hard Disk Drive Handycam® Camcorder

Available in March for about $1300

Full 1920x1080 high-definition video recording and 12-megapixel still image capture
Large capacity 120GB hard drive holds up to 46 hours of HD video (LP mode)
New back-illuminated Exmor R™ CMOS sensor improves sensitivity in low light conditions
Improved Optical Steady Shot with Active Mode stabilization for smooth video and photos
Smile Shutter™ automatically takes photos when subject smiles, even while shooting HD video
Face detection technology recognizes up to eight faces and automatically corrects focus, exposure and color control


Sony HDR-XR200V 120GB High-Definition Hard Disk Drive Handycam® Camcorder

Available in March for about $1000

Full 1920x1080 high-definition video recording and 4-megapixel still image capture
Large capacity 120GB hard drive holds up to 46 hours of HD video (LP mode)
Photo and video geo-tagging using built-in GPS receiver and NAVTEG® digital maps
Improved Optical Steady Shot with Active Mode stabilization for smooth video and photos
Smile Shutter™ automatically takes photos when subject smiles, even while shooting HD video
Face detection technology recognizes up to eight faces and automatically corrects focus, exposure and color control
15x optical Carl Zeiss® Vaio-Sonnar® T* zoom lens


Sony HDR-XR100 80GB High-Definition Hard Disk Drive Handycam® Camcorder

Available in March for about $750

Full 1920x1080 high-definition video recording and 4-megapixel still image capture
Large capacity 80GB hard drive holds up to 30 hours of HD video (LP mode)
Improved Optical Steady Shot with Active Mode stabilization for smooth video and photos
Smile Shutter™ automatically takes photos when subject smiles, even while shooting HD video
Face detection technology recognizes up to eight faces and automatically corrects focus, exposure and color control
10x optical Carl Zeiss® Vario-Tessar® zoom lens
Records in Dolby® Digital 5.1 surround sound with built-in zoom microphone for clear recording of subjects


Sony DCR-SR87 80GB Hard Disk Drive Handycam® Camcorder

Available in February for about $500

Hybrid movie recording on Memory Stick PRO Duo™ media and built-in 80GB hard drive, which can hold up to 84 hours of video (LP mode)
1-megapixel CCD imager for excellent video and 1-megapixel photos
25x optical Carl Zeiss® Vaio-Tessar® zoom lens with Steady Shot® stabilization for smooth video and photos
Direct connection with DVDirect® Express DVD writer (sold separately) for easy memory archival and playback
Records in Dolby® Digital 5.1 surround sound with built-in zoom microphone for clear recording of subjects
2.7-inch wide, touch panel LCD screen


Sony DCR-SR67 80GB Hard Disk Drive Handycam® Camcorder

Available in February for about $450

Hybrid movie recording on Memory Stick PRO Duo™ media and built-in 80GB hard drive, which can hold up to 84 hours of video (LP mode)
60x optical Carl Zeiss® Vaio-Tessar® zoom lens with Steady Shot® stabilization for smooth video and photos
Direct connection with DVDirect® Express DVD writer (sold separately) for easy memory archival and playback
Records in Dolby® Digital 5.1 surround sound with built-in zoom microphone for clear recording of subjects
2.7-inch wide, touch panel LCD screen


Sony DCR-SR47 60GB Hard Disk Drive Handycam® Camcorder

Available in February for about $400

Hybrid movie recording on Memory Stick PRO Duo™ media and built-in 60GB hard drive, which can hold up to 41 hours of video (LP mode)
60x optical Carl Zeiss® Vaio-Tessar® zoom lens with Steady Shot® stabilization for smooth video and photos
Direct connection with DVDirect® Express DVD writer (sold separately) for easy memory archival and playback
2.7-inch wide, touch panel LCD screen
Available in three colors including red, blue and silver


Sony HDR-CX100 High-Definition Flash Memory Handycam® Camcorder

Available in March for about $600

Full 1920x1080 high-definition video recording and 4-megapixel still image capture
8GB embedded memory plus expandable storage capacity via Memory Stick PRO Duo™ media
Ultra-compact design in three colors including red, black and silver
Smile Shutter™ automatically takes photos when subject smiles, even while shooting HD video
Face detection technology recognizes up to eight faces and automatically corrects focus, exposure and color control
10x optical Carl Zeiss® Vaio-Tessar® zoom lens with Steady Shot® stabilization for smooth video and photos


Sony DCR-SX60 16GB Flash Memory Handycam® Camcorder

Available in March for about $370

Hybrid movie recording on Memory Stick PRO Duo™ media and 16GB embedded memory, which can hold up to 10 hours of video (LP mode)
60x optical Carl Zeiss® Vaio-Tessar® zoom lens with Steady Shot® stabilization for smooth video and photos
Direct connection with DVDirect® Express DVD writer (sold separately) for easy memory archival and playback
2.7-inch wide, touch panel LCD screen


Sony DCR-SX41 8GB Flash Memory Handycam® Camcorder

Available in March for about $300

Hybrid movie recording on Memory Stick PRO Duo™ media and 8GB embedded memory, which can hold up to 5 hours of video (LP mode)
60x optical Carl Zeiss® Vaio-Tessar® zoom lens
Direct connection with DVDirect® Express DVD writer (sold separately) for easy memory archival and playback
2.7-inch wide, touch panel LCD screen


Sony DCR-SX40 4GB Flash Memory Handycam® Camcorder

Available in March for about $270

Hybrid movie recording on Memory Stick PRO Duo™ media and 4GB embedded memory
60x optical Carl Zeiss® Vaio-Tessar® zoom lens
Direct connection with DVDirect® Express DVD writer (sold separately) for easy memory archival and playback
2.7-inch wide, touch panel LCD screen
Available in color variations including red, blue and silver


Sony DCR-DVD850 DVD Handycam® Camcorder

Available in February for about $430

“Hybrid Plus” recording on three separate media including 16GB of internal memory (more than 10 hours of video in LP mode), Memory Stick PRO Duo™ media and 3-inch DVD disc
60x optical Carl Zeiss® Vaio-Tessar® zoom lens with Steady Shot® stabilization for smooth video and photos
2.7-inch wide, touch panel LCD screen
Records in Dolby® Digital 5.1 surround sound with built-in zoom microphone for clear recording of subjects


Sony DCR-DVD650 DVD Handycam® Camcorder

Available in February for about $300

Hybrid movie recording options on Memory Stick PRO Duo™ media and 3-inch DVD disc
60x optical Carl Zeiss® Vaio-Tessar® zoom lens
Steady Shot® stabilization for smooth video and photos
2.7-inch wide, touch panel LCD screen


Sony MHS-CM1 Webbie HD MP4 Camera

Available now for about $200

Captures high-definition MPEG-4 video and 5-megapixel photos for easy transfer to the computer
Optical 5x zoom lens gets you close to the action without sacrificing picture quality
Equipped with PMB Portable software for quick content upload to popular video and photo sharing websites
Slim horizontal body with 2.5-inch LCD screen that swivels up to 270 degrees
Expandable storage capacity via Memory Stick PRO Duo™ media
Available in three fashionable colors including eggplant, orange and silver


Sony MHS-PM1 Webbie HD MP4 Camera

Available in April for about $170

Captures high-definition MPEG-4 video and 5-megapixel photos for easy transfer to the computer
Vertical 4-ounce body slips easily into a pocket or purse so it can be taken anywhere
Equipped with PMB Portable software for quick content upload to popular video and photo sharing websites
Rotating swivel lens instantly powers device and makes it easy to self-record
Expandable storage capacity via Memory Stick PRO Duo™ media
Available in three fashionable colors including eggplant, orange and silver

and not one electronic viewfinder among them

oh heavy burden

so much info is missing... what bitrate,
Camcorders....

Where did you get the info/does it mention bitrate?

Where did you get the info/does it mention bitrate?
That is all from the Sony press release and that was all they had.

and not one electronic viewfinder among them

oh heavy burden

I am pretty sure that the XR520v and XR500v have viewfinders.;)

Crap...so does this mean I need to return my SR12?

TRaymond

Still no progressive modes?

Crap...so does this mean I need to return my SR12?

TRaymond

I don't know about that. :) I felt the same way at first, but these new Sony's aren't scheduled to come out until March. I am already hooked on either the SR12 or HG21 so, I will need a camcorder before March. I guess when these become available, I will wait a few months for the price to drop and then try one. :D


Regards,
Pam

Still no progressive modes?

i dont even see 24Mbps either....

I don't know about that. :) I felt the same way at first, but these new Sony's aren't scheduled to come out until March. I am already hooked on either the SR12 or HG21 so, I will need a camcorder before March. I guess when these become available, I will wait a few months for the price to drop and then try one. :D


Regards,
Pam

Same here :) - I need a HD cam for a trip coming up in April, the Sony prices are not going to fall fast enough for me to grab one by that time... SR11 it is for me for now :)

What is this hybrid plus?

Hey TR...Unless these new camcorders are significant upgrades, I'm sittin' pretty with my SR11. But, shoot...I've only had it for 3 weeks now and camcorders are all new to me. I've been a photographer for a while (Nikon equipment), but camcorders are somethin' else :)

Smile Shutter™ automatically takes photos when subject smiles

Now that's why I'm talking about!!!! :) *snap*

I wonder if it can be programmed to take photos on a number of different faces...Please set Auto-Snap to capture photo on:

1) Smile
2) Frown
3) Grumpy Face
4) Rolleyes
5) Blushing
6) Giving you the Bird
...

i dont even see 24Mbps either....

Per Camcorderinfo.org the 24mbps on the Canon HF11 did not improve the picture quality compared to the HF10's 17mbps. There is so much more to it than bitrate.

Having said that I still want to see it use the 24mbps ceiling of AVCHD.

I am either getting a new Sony with the new sensor or the Canon, which ever one is better in the reviews when they come out.

i dont even see 24Mbps either....

Is it just me or is anyone else amazed that Sony missed the boat on this one. I mean do they just not have the technology to process this fast? Amazing. Canon is in to their 2nd year on this and Sony hasn't begun.

The 24mbps does improve fine detail when moving IMO.

Extra bit-rate will not show more detail, it will show less compression artifacts. AVCHD doesn't tend to show any compression artifacts at 16mbs. The real story is in the backlit CMOS sensor. I would love to see if this makes a difference. It is interesting that it has ditched the Carl Zeiss and gone back to a Sony-made lens.

Extra bit-rate will not show more detail, it will show less compression artifacts. AVCHD doesn't tend to show any compression artifacts at 16mbs. The real story is in the backlit CMOS sensor. I would love to see if this makes a difference. It is interesting that it has ditched the Carl Zeiss and gone back to a Sony-made lens.

I am new to AVCHD, but I am not new to technology - so bare with me. ;)

If 24mbps doesn't show more detail than 16mbps, then why would anyone still be using HDV (mini-dv) at 25mbps (this seems to be the standard everyone is reaching to achieve). Also, it would seem to me that for fast motion a higher bit rate would (and should) make a difference. :)

Regards,
Pam

Extra bit-rate will not show more detail, it will show less compression artifacts. AVCHD doesn't tend to show any compression artifacts at 16mbs. The real story is in the backlit CMOS sensor. I would love to see if this makes a difference. It is interesting that it has ditched the Carl Zeiss and gone back to a Sony-made lens.

The extra bit-rate and fine detail is subject to debate. When you pan, the extra bitrate tends to preserve fine detail a bit better.

As far as the lens goes, this has always been the weakness IMO, especially when you compare it to the same offerings by Canon. BTW, the new G lens is not made by Sony, but rather by a joint venture of Minolta-Konica. The G lens is also used on the new FX1000 and Z5 prosumer cams.

If 24mbps doesn't show more detail than 16mbps, then why would anyone still be using HDV (mini-dv) at 25mbps (this seems to be the standard everyone is reaching to achieve). Also, it would seem to me that for fast motion a higher bit rate would (and should) make a difference. :)

Regards,
Pam

Higher bitrate is almost always beneficial in some way. This is why broadcast digital camera bitrates are so very high....much higher (more than double) than even the 25mpbs we're just reaching in the consumer arena.

But AVCHD uses a much more efficient compression so that 24mpbs 'can' be, in theory, superior to the 25mbps of HDV.

However, as I''m sure you know, there are so many factors that go in to a good picture other than bitrate...lens, sensor, processing etc. This is why a prosumer HDV camera will be superior @25mbps to the best consumer AVCHD camera @24mbps. The 3 CCDs (or 3 CMOS) sensors, bigger and better lens, better processing...all contribute to a better picture with greater dynamic range.

Dynamic range is one of the 'giveaways' of a consumer camera. You'll always find the megabuck cameras have a much better ability to properly expose both the highlights and lowlight areas of the picture. Consumer cams will tend to 'blow out' highlights much quicker. Again, larger & better sensors etc. will contribute to this.

Higher bitrate is almost always beneficial in some way. This is why broadcast digital camera bitrates are so very high....much higher (more than double) than even the 25mpbs we're just reaching in the consumer arena.

But AVCHD uses a much more efficient compression so that 24mpbs 'can' be, in theory, superior to the 25mbps of HDV.

However, as I''m sure you know, there are so many factors that go in to a good picture other than bitrate...lens, sensor, processing etc. This is why a prosumer HDV camera will be superior @25mbps to the best consumer AVCHD camera @24mbps. The 3 CCDs (or 3 CMOS) sensors, bigger and better lens, better processing...all contribute to a better picture with greater dynamic range.

Dynamic range is one of the 'giveaways' of a consumer camera. You'll always find the megabuck cameras have a much better ability to properly expose both the highlights and lowlight areas of the picture. Consumer cams will tend to 'blow out' highlights much quicker. Again, larger & better sensors etc. will contribute to this.

As always, thanks Ken. I was just replying to the member who posted before me. I wasn't quite convinced of his reasoning. ;)

The real story is in the backlit CMOS sensor. I would love to see if this makes a difference.

It would invariably be compared with Canon's HF S10's larger sensor. So it would be interesting to see if this new technology can overcome the inherent disadvantage of Sony's smaller sensor.

If 24mbps doesn't show more detail than 16mbps, then why would anyone still be using HDV (mini-dv) at 25mbps (this seems to be the standard everyone is reaching to achieve). Also, it would seem to me that for fast motion a higher bit rate would (and should) make a difference. :)


it makes a big difference, and where it shows up is later on down the editing chain, in the form of concatenation... all of these pseudo-comparisons that you see between 16Mbps and 24Mbps avchd never take that into account.

hdv is mpeg2, which is far more lossy than avchd(h.264), so the concatenation errors are more severe, even though they both have similar bitrates.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NsRnj68gbswC&pg=PA354&lpg=PA354&dq=concatenation+error+video&source=web&ots=k5uDiAzrMr&sig=Oa44ZJ2XERd6m_AQfQch0dLieLc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA354,M1

it makes a big difference, and where it shows up is later on down the editing chain, in the form of concatenation... all of these pseudo-comparisons that you see between 16Mbps and 24Mbps avchd never take that into account.

hdv is mpeg2, which is far more lossy than avchd(h.264), so the concatenation errors are more severe, even though they both have similar bitrates.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NsRnj68gbswC&pg=PA354&lpg=PA354&dq=concatenation+error+video&source=web&ots=k5uDiAzrMr&sig=Oa44ZJ2XERd6m_AQfQch0dLieLc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA354,M1

EXCELLENT!! I love learning new words. :) Thanks -

It would invariably be compared with Canon's HF S10's larger sensor. So it would be interesting to see if this new technology can overcome the inherent disadvantage of Sony's smaller sensor.

My friend is at the CES and was able to check out the new Sony. According to what he saw, it does help relative to the SR11/SR12. I have no idea how it compares to the larger sensor in the Canon.

Generally it's been my experience that you're better off with real engineering changes than trying 'tricks' to accomplish something that a better engineering decision would have accomplished.

it makes a big difference, and where it shows up is later on down the editing chain, in the form of concatenation... all of these pseudo-comparisons that you see between 16Mbps and 24Mbps avchd never take that into account.

hdv is mpeg2, which is far more lossy than avchd(h.264), so the concatenation errors are more severe, even though they both have similar bitrates.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NsRnj68gbswC&pg=PA354&lpg=PA354&dq=concatenation+error+video&source=web&ots=k5uDiAzrMr&sig=Oa44ZJ2XERd6m_AQfQch0dLieLc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA354,M1

Absolutely true and something I forgot to mention. Anyone that thinks bitrate isn't a factor in picture quality, hasn't done any video editing. :)

But with that said, I'd still take the 25mbps bitrate from a prosumer HDV camcorder than any of the AVCHD consumer cams we're discussing. ;)

i'll take the avchd hmc150 over any hdv camcorder in the same price range, no question about it :-)

i can't wait to see what canon replaces their prosumer camcorders with.

i'll take the avchd hmc150 over any hdv camcorder in the same price range, no question about it :-)

i can't wait to see what canon replaces their prosumer camcorders with.

Well keep in mind that the Sony has a few new HDV prosumer camcorders that offer excellent picture quality. You won't see HDV going away anytime soon. I think I'd take some of these over the HMC150...but if you're giving me any of them (including the 150), I won't say no. :D

i can't wait to see what canon replaces their prosumer camcorders with.

They already announced the new prosumers 2 month ago: All HDV cameras. AVCHD is limited to 24 Mbps bitrate and I'm not sure if Canon will ever touch this segment for prosumers. A real prosumer camera, like the Sony EX1, is over $ 8000. The Panasonic HMC150 can be a good choice but most prosumers , like most porno filmakers, still love the HDV.

i'd like to have a canon xl h1a because of the long glass, but it's not new, it was last updated back in april... part of that updating, or de-evolution as i call it, included staying with hdv, and dropping from 4 audio channels to two.

the next release of the xl h1a should be a serious revamp, instead of these minor updates.

avchd is 24Mbps, but so is hdv, which makes avchd the winner in pq, if everything else is equal, which it isn't, as ken points out.

one nice thing about the hmc150 is that it's still ccd-based, no rolling shutter artifacts.

If 24mbps doesn't show more detail than 16mbps, then why would anyone still be using HDV (mini-dv) at 25mbps (this seems to be the standard everyone is reaching to achieve). Also, it would seem to me that for fast motion a higher bit rate would (and should) make a difference. :)


Bit rate is only a small part of the picture. Have a look at the bit rates of a good quality commercial dvd today. Many of them look close to hi def quality yet the bit rates are running between 3000 and 8000Kbps.

Bit rates also affect mpeg2 much more drastically than avc. A 5000K difference in mpeg2 will be much more noticeable than a 5000K difference in avchd. This is why there is so much debate with avchd at 24M vs 16M.

Mpeg2 on the other hand can reach some incredibly high bit rates.... 50 or 100Mbps is entirely possible with mpeg2.... but then think of the file sizes!

Is it just me or is anyone else amazed that Sony missed the boat on this one. I mean do they just not have the technology to process this fast? Amazing. Canon is in to their 2nd year on this and Sony hasn't begun.

The 24mbps does improve fine detail when moving IMO.

I'm not sure Sony will EVER punch out bit rates of 24M.

There are different types of avchd... MAIN profile and HIGH profile. Sony uses the main while Canon uses the high.

The main profile has easier playback abilities... but then it has a max bit rate of something like 17Mbps.

From Wiki:


The implementation of H.264/AVC codec varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Canon and Panasonic camcorders use High-Profile@Level-4.1, up to the AVCHD format's maximum bitrate of 24 Mbit/s. To date, Sony camcorders have only used Main-Profile@Level-4.0, at a maximum bitrate of 17 Mbit/s. The High-Profile mode of H264 is more difficult to create and playback than main-profile. Consequently, recordings made by one vendor's camcorder or editing software may be unplayable on another vendor's equipment, leading to a frustrating user experience.

You can find some more info here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/avchd-format-discussion/133481-2-kinds-avchd.html
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=633683&Replies=3

Hmmm. I would consider the following:

...
Sony HDR-XR100 80GB High-Definition Hard Disk Drive Handycam® Camcorder

Available in March for about $750

Full 1920x1080 high-definition video recording and 4-megapixel still image capture
Large capacity 80GB hard drive holds up to 30 hours of HD video (LP mode)
Improved Optical Steady Shot with Active Mode stabilization for smooth video and photos
Smile Shutter™ automatically takes photos when subject smiles, even while shooting HD video
Face detection technology recognizes up to eight faces and automatically corrects focus, exposure and color control
10x optical Carl Zeiss® Vario-Tessar® zoom lens
Records in Dolby® Digital 5.1 surround sound with built-in zoom microphone for clear recording of subjects


....

Sony HDR-CX100 High-Definition Flash Memory Handycam® Camcorder

Available in March for about $600

Full 1920x1080 high-definition video recording and 4-megapixel still image capture
8GB embedded memory plus expandable storage capacity via Memory Stick PRO Duo™ media
Ultra-compact design in three colors including red, black and silver
Smile Shutter™ automatically takes photos when subject smiles, even while shooting HD video
Face detection technology recognizes up to eight faces and automatically corrects focus, exposure and color control
10x optical Carl Zeiss® Vaio-Tessar® zoom lens with Steady Shot® stabilization for smooth video and photosIf I were an organized person, I would add $100 and get a bigger memory stick and buy the CX100. Smaller camcorder and no need for USB cables

If I were a disorganized person, I would buy the XR100 and use the hard drive for storage.

Crap...so does this mean I need to return my SR12?Not at all. The specs above are the same as what you have.

You have a good camera and nothing here (or in the next decade or so) will be a radical change. At most, the equivalent of a SR12 will be a few hundred dollars cheaper.

Higher bitrate is almost always beneficial in some way. This is why broadcast digital camera bitrates are so very high....much higher (more than double) than even the 25mpbs we're just reaching in the consumer arena.

But AVCHD uses a much more efficient compression so that 24mpbs 'can' be, in theory, superior to the 25mbps of HDV.

However, as I''m sure you know, there are so many factors that go in to a good picture other than bitrate...lens, sensor, processing etc. This is why a prosumer HDV camera will be superior @25mbps to the best consumer AVCHD camera @24mbps. The 3 CCDs (or 3 CMOS) sensors, bigger and better lens, better processing...all contribute to a better picture with greater dynamic range.Well said, Ken.

Too many people look at bitrate as a measure - like horsepower. Well, a cart drawn by four horses is not quite the same as a lawnmower. Like horse carts and lawnmowers, data volumes may be the same but their effect is different depending on circumstance.

Moreover, and to be more precise in this case, it is one thing to haul 200 inflated balloons and quite another to put 200 (empty) balloons into a small bag. Bitrate refers to how many balloons the system can haul. It does not say whether the balloons are flat, deflated or inflated.

Hmmm. I would consider the following:


Not at all. The specs above are the same as what you have.

You have a good camera and nothing here (or in the next decade or so) will be a radical change. At most, the equivalent of a SR12 will be a few hundred dollars cheaper.



If you are referring to the SR-12's replacement (the HDR-XR500V), the specs aren't completely the same. It takes 12.1MP digital stills vs. the SR-12's 10.2MP, 6.6MP 1/3.15" sensor vs. 5.6MP 1/3" sensor, Back-illuminated CMOS sensor vs. non-Back-illuminated CMOS sensor.....and a few other things too.

I chose the HDR-XR500V as the SR-12's replacement simply because they both have the same hard drive size. In reality.... the HDR-XR520V with it's 240GB hard drive is the SR-12's true replacement on the high end and the HDR-XR500V replaces the SR-11 on the low end.

Also... looking at the product pages on the Sony site, I see many mistakes. For instance.... they say it's a 12.1MP digital still camera, but on the picture of the camera, it says 12.0MP on the side of the casing.

Also....they claim at the top of the page that it's sensor is 1/3.15"..... but if you look at the reference to it in the feature list, it's listed as a 1/2.88" inch sensor. I'm guessing 1/3.15" is the correct sensor.


As for me with my SR-11? I'm a little jealous of the new cameras for their slightly better sensors..... but even more then that..... I'm jealous of the better low light capabilities.

Overall though..... these new cameras are of marginal improvement over the SR-11/12 cameras. Among other words...... no significant reason to sell my camera and upgrade to these new ones. So a sizable relief there.


I must agree with others that I am a little stunned Sony hasn't gone with any progressive modes to compete with Canon and others. I'm a little pissed at them for that.

I'm guessing I'll upgrade my camera when Sony releases a 1080p model in the same price range as these new cameras.

I haven't really done much research, but does anybody know of a Sony prosumer cam that has 3-CMOS sensors....true 1080p images .....and records in AVCHD?!?!? That's what I really want next! :D

Ken- While most of what you stated, I agree with, I'd be careful when mixing technologies. On one hand you allude to comparing image count and sensors yet the comparison is between two different technologies as well. Therefore I don't believe the size can be said to matter as in larger = better. It would be like saying 3 1" Vidicon tubes shoots better image than 3 - 2/3" CCD's. You and I know that does not hold. Neither does a comparison between CMOS and CCD. Nor does, MP2 on HDV on a prosumer camcorder like the Z1U vs. AVCHD on an HVR SR12.

I have 2 DXC D35 WS, and 2 DXC 637 cameras, all 4 are 2/3" CCD and have broadcast glass. Recorders are the DSR-1 DVCAM. I also own a Z1U HDV camcorder. The latter is a dual format HVD (1080i x 1440) and DVCAM 480i x 720 @ 25 Mbps. When I compare the image quality in DVCAM between the two the larger format camera will blow away the Z1U, in both DVCAM AND HDV modes. Specifically, the Z1U when I take that HDV clip in Vegas and zoom in on it goes soft early on at 200% zoom. The D35 WS DVCAM video ( It is not capable of shooting in HDV mode. ) Will hold up to the same degree of softness in the image to 400% zoom. In otherwords, the image quality of my larger format camcorders are easily, hands down, superior quality to the Z1U.

Now enter my SR12. Different technology. I shoot AVCHD in 1080i x 1920. The clips look superior to the HVD Z1U and hold up even better than the D35WS clips in Zoom. The sharpness holds together that same even at 1080i x 1440. But, it does not hold when I put the SR12 in SD mode. This applies only to image sharpness and detail.
When it comes to Chromatic aberrations, only the broadcast cameras hold up well and the worst artifacting is the tiny SR12 and this just simply has to do with the larger diameter lens coupled with larger diameter image sensor. There is just no getting around that physical limitation on the smaller camcorders. IT would require a lens glass of 4 times the broadcast glass quality just to hold the same and that would be prohibitively expensive.

But here's where the little SDR12 really shines. It has state of the art shooting technology built in and I can take it with me almost all the time. The big boys are just a wear you out burden to haul around.

Now here's what I saw WRT the newest 500 from Sony. Two major improvements-
1. Black levels are pitch black with NO Video noise! If you shoot at night, like the stuff I just shot last night of night sky and the lights of Las Vegas, the SR12 will have a black noisy black sky, ruining the effect. The new camera will just have the points of bright stars against pure black. I was really blown away by the improvement.
2. The second big feature improvement is the steady shot improvements. Sony even had the SR12 and the new one side by side on a shake table and the new one had minor movement that was barely noticeable. The SR12 was just shaking.

See the test: (http://www.tv-shopperb.com/HD/ShakeTable.wmv)

I would say that these two improvements alone are enough to drop your jaw.

I think it's getting to the point where the new technology is outperforming the large broadcast stuff from the 90's but not the present day broadcast rigs. To do it they had to develop new technology.

Wow, that is impressive. I have been on the fence b/t the new canon and sony. I will be getting the sony.

Don

Thanks for your comments. It's great to have pros like you to give us such interesting information.

Don, I agree with most of what you said except one point that I'm wrestling with. I can well understand your larger format cams in DVCAM mode blowing away the Z1U in the same mode (as you may recall, I actually had the FX1 and found even the HDV image somewhat soft relative to some other HDV cams). That part is a no-brainer. What I'm not quite understanding is when you say the larger cams still blow away the Z1U even when you're shooting in HDV.

Are you talking about downcoverting the HDV to SD? Otherwise I'm confused. You're starting with far more detail than any DVCAM unit is capable of recording due to simple format limitations. Even with tape speeds 2X that of DV, you're still limited in detail capture.

BTW Don, I'm not surprised the new Sony has improved OIS given the implementation of OIS in the Sony SR12. It seems to me that Sony took a bit of a step backward in their OIS in the SR12. The Canon HG21 I bought has far better OIS than my SR12 had.

My buddy was at CES too and commented on the low light improvement of the new Sony over his SR12 (he thought it actually had lower noise than the FX1000 he tried), but he saw no improvement in image sharpness or detail. That's where I would have hoped that Sony would have made some strides. I'm also surprised they didn't up the bitrate.

Don/Ken

Could you give me your thoughts about the Sony EX3 ? I think it is in a totally different league, price-wise and quality-wise. I would never buy it for my non-pro use but my wife is a filmmaker and I wonder how good is this camera for short movies. She is renting old cameras now and sometimes she even uses my HV20 in 24P mode but I'm thinking about investing some money on her business.

Thanks

Sergio

Sony EX3 - I like the ergonimics, controls, lenses. I don't like the lack of flash memory & no avchd.

Slimoli, at about $8,000 it sure is in a different league! It does take flash memory, but a VERY expensive version of it (think $500 for 8gigs) but it does have nice, big 1/2" sensors, interchangeable lenses...we're talking a serious cam here and maybe more than you need?

I haven't played with one, but I'd bet it takes nicer images than anything we're talking about here. But again, you can get a beautiful image with cameras like the FX1000/Z5 and the Canon XHA1S for much less. For that matter you could go with the EX1 for much less but you'll lose the interchangeable lens feature of the EX3...which may not mean much to you. I also believe there are memory adapters coming on to the market now which makes the memory much cheaper for the EX series cams.

Thanks Ken

It is not for me but for my wife who has a lot of experience with professional cameras. She needs wide angle and always complain about fixed lenses because it makes almost impossible to film indoor. Renting lenses are far less expensive than renting cameras.
The reason why I mentioned the EX3 is also because it is a poor guy Cinealta camera. I remeber few years ago my wife saying she would love to have the money to buy a camera that could produce a real 35mm movie feeling. That camera was 150K. $8000 is a lot of money but can be a good investment if she succeeds .

EX3's lack of SDHC, Memory stick support i should say. All this SxS, P2 card memory costs is big bullsh*t. If u could use some type of adapter to use SDHC or memory sticks would be really cool.

EX3's lack of SDHC, Memory stick support i should say. All this SxS, P2 card memory costs is big bullsh*t. If u could use some type of adapter to use SDHC or memory sticks would be really cool.

Those adapters already exist. ;)

Those adapters already exist. ;)

Wow! Finding info about it now. Now if I can find $8000 for a EX3?:eek::)

Wow, that is impressive. I have been on the fence b/t the new canon and sony. I will be getting the sony.

I think I will get the Sony too, unless the Canon review blows Sony out of the water, last year they were neck and neck and Sony had the better interface which my wife liked when playing at the store. I would love the higher bitrate on Sony but this is a brand new sensor so that will probably be next years upgrade. But I am buying this spring not next year.