If you are reading this you must have developed some interest in protecting your gear.
I am hoping a lot of people will chime in so we can use the information here to make an informed decision.
I am not at all an expert on this (far from it actually), so if any section of
this opening post is complete BS, I will correct it!


This is thread intended to:

collect and centralize some expert opinions on the matter of surge protection, power conditioning (concerned with general power imperfections), balanced power and noise suppression (more concerned with audio).
select a range of good products (best value for money). As this is a high-end-gear thread, quality obviously comes before price. I'm sure there are some good products to be found below $1000.


Problems to solve listed in order of importance (interpret as you like):


Surge suppression
Switching transients
Consistent over voltage
Brownouts and sags
Black outs (for the projector folks). UPS capability is not that important.
15-30 min. tops should suffice.
Frequency variation (no perfect sine wave?)


There are still a few terms I don't know how to qualify so I'll just mention them and someone smarter might shed some light:

1. Line noise caused by RFI and EMI interference.
2. Harmonic distortion. Has something to do with non-linear loads from the connected devices, I think:).

What connections to protect (all equally important)

1. Power to the devices(:rolleyes:)
2. I don't know of the different systems (Europe vs America) but the coax cable which holds the TV signals
3. For digital interactive TV, CAT 5 UTP cable and or DSL cable


The summary after googling a few days:

Problem's 1 and 2 are typically handled by a surge suppressor. A surge suprressor will be often embedded in the product that will handle problems 3 and 4: a line conditioner with balanced power output(I suspect this is the same as voltage regulation). Different power zones (so that one piece of equipment connected does not cause interference to other equipment) also seems like a good idea. For problem 5 a battery UPS is required. A true online UPS, also named a double conversion UPS, should cover 3-5 and and thus solve most power related problems. Unfortunately, they often SEEM to fall short as a surge/transient protector because or their low joule rating. Is this because a true online UPS uses different means to protect from surges and transients? Just take a look at the true online double conversion SMART UPS line from APC, which typically has a joule rating around 400-600 whilst many surge suppressors go well beyond 2000 joules. As a true online UP makes it own AC created from a DC source a surge may very well only take out the UPS and not the equipment. Clarity is really needed here. Oh, I have no idea what problem 6 exactly entails, but an online UPS should solve this too. The reason for all of this is that it 'creates' (regenerates) new clean power when it converts battery power back to AC.
Now, audiophiles have additional criteria. These have something to do with class D vs class AB equipment. The gest of it is that some UPS/conditioning equipment generates harmonics which have an influence on audio.

So, the question is: is there a good device out there that does all this? Clean problem free power (as a sine wave, not stepped), whilst not impacting audio negatively, that provides enough standby time to safely shutdown the equipment? Please note that devices that only offer limited surge protection MAY be assisted by a device placed at the electricity service entrance. I do not know as to what extent this will provide added protection. If someone with a background in electrical engineering could address this question:).
Another side note is that 'high-end' often seems to go hand in hand with 'split-up'. Perhaps it is possible to place a top notch line surge suppressor (either a device or something at the service entrance) before the line conditioner and then connect the latter to a UPS. Something tells me this will create havoc if I would do that:D.

In closing, I've included a list of manufacturers that, during my search, have come up enough times to be worth mentioned (in no particular order):


APC (Schneider)
PSaudio
Liebert (don't really know if they do dual conversion?)
Eaton (Powerware)
Tripp Lite
Monster (not many people seem to like this brand and accusations go as far as that Monster is not outputting a true sine wave)
Surgex
Equi=Tech
Panamax
Brickwall. Not that known (I think) but they seem to be VERY confident:-) http://www.brickwall.com/index.htm

Hi

I am quite interested by this thread. Power Quality is a real issue and does affect all electronic components.. Whether it translates in real perfomrance gains (Better Sound or Better picure) is an ongoing debate but lomgevity amd reliability both increase with good Powe Quality..
I'll also add that on this subject, I will sound a lot like an anti-audiophile. Several of the audiophile brands do not do much on the issue of Power Quality. It is much better to spend on established and professional players in this arena.

I like LIebert, not cheap at all.
APC has gotten around itself and has become close to the de-facto to the general public for all things Power
TrippLite is decent
Eaton is good.
I'll add MArconi as they are making headways in the general public.. They are wel known in the Telecom Carrier world.

Monster when it comes to power quality is to me a joke and PS Audio simply labels a few solution "Audiophile" and sells them at a premium.. I would rather stay with APC than touch whatever they are doing. More later...

just for discussion purposes:

while I appreciate the benefit of a true sine wave output power conditioner....what advantage would it provide to the majority of today's electronic gear that use switching power supplies?

This keeps coming up, and there is much misunderstanding on the matter, but Mark hinted at the answers.


1. Surge suppression
2. Switching transients

These are handled perfectly well by inexpensive surge suppressors, well under $100, some as cheap as $20.

3. Consistent over voltage
4. Brownouts and sags

These are virtually irrelevant to most modern video with switching power supplies. Most can easily handle 90 to 130 volt swings and still regulate fine. Nearly all have protection that will shut the unit down if it goes too low or too high.

5. Black outs (for the projector folks). UPS capability is not that important.
15-30 min. tops should suffice.

The need for lamp cool down is largely an overplayed myth to sell UPSs. Nearly all projectors have a thermal switch that will not allow a hot restart, which is what will damage a lamp. Post power fans are largely to speed up the process of cooling the lamp so that it can be restarted if needed. Thermal lag in lamp systems simply has not been confirmed by anyone that I have found.

6. Frequency variation (no perfect sine wave?)

This is simply not an issue. Small variations in line frequency are completely irrelevant to most power supplies. Large variations have not been shown to exist. The stepped sine wave from a UPS is FAR more likely to cause a problem than anything found on most power lines. As mentioned above, and suggested by Mark, modern switching power supplies are very robust in dealing with this kind of thing.

1. Line noise caused by RFI and EMI interference.
2. Harmonic distortion. Has something to do with non-linear loads from the connected devices, I think:).

This mostly gets filtered by the power supply. Most modern power supplies have filters on the primary to keep the crud generated by the switching circuits out of the other components and to reduce the effects of less well filtered units. It really does not affect performance anyway, though it might slightly affect the efficiency of a power supply, or confuse a voltage detecting circuit in some units. The noise never gets to the video and audio circuits. No one has ever shown that line noise affects the image nor sound quality in a system with a switching supply. The switching pulses generated by the supplies themselves are FAR more significant. Conventional audio supplies MAY be somewhat affected, but again, no one has shown the post power supply effects. Certainly the line filters reduce noise, but to what gain. I know I have looked for it and it just does not get to the critical circuits. That said, ground noise may affect some systems, but proper wiring and gronding usually fixes this.



What connections to protect (all equally important)

1. Power to the devices
2. I don't know of the different systems (Europe vs America) but the coax cable which holds the TV signals
3. For digital interactive TV, CAT 5 UTP cable and or DSL cable

All need to be protected. They can be well protected by a well designed cheap surge suppressor.

IME and IMNSHO, most UPS systems and power conditioners are a waste of time and money, and just one more component to stuff into landfills when the batteries die. Good system design and grounding, along with good basic surge suppression on all power and signal lines can be accomplished with very little investment, and is very effective even in high lightning areas like we have here.

FrantzM thanks and glad you decided to join as your name popped up in a few other threads too! Have Marconi been acquired by another company? A quick google didn't give me their website but as I'm short on time now I'll try to read up on them later on.

One of the problems in assessing these companies and their products is that almost no one has the gear to do objective measurements. I've been looking to contact a few companies but the astonishment after such question is quite funny. I'm not persuaded yet I should spend a large amount on conditioning if our power is fine.
If so, money is better spend on a high end surge protector.

The gear to verify performance differences is widely available. The gear to see the effects of filtering line noise is as well. A good wide bandwidth scope makes it clear that while line conditioners do reduce line noise, that noise almost never makes it past a power supply anyway. It would be very easy to document the claims of performance improvements if they existed, but all we ever see are subjective claims from both vendors and reviewers. Power issues do not take exotic equipment to evaluate.

T
5. Black outs (for the projector folks). UPS capability is not that important.
15-30 min. tops should suffice.

The need for lamp cool down is largely an overplayed myth to sell UPSs. Nearly all projectors have a thermal switch that will not allow a hot restart, which is what will damage a lamp.
lcallo,

WRONG - this is INCORRECT that the thermal switch can protect the lamp when the
cooling flow is disconnected.

When the lamp is on and you have cooling flow - there is a temperature differential
within the lamp - not all parts of the lamp are the same temperature. In fact, it is the
temperature differential that drives the heat flow - the heat flux is proportional to the
spatial derivative of the temperature distribution.

When you lose power - you lose both the heat source AND the cooling on the periphery.
Because the loss of heat is now much less because the lamp is no longer actively
cooled - the spatial derivative of the temperature distribution can no longer be maintained.

That is a steep slope in temperature implies a heat flow. Since we no longer have the
heat flow - we can no longer have the steep slope in the temperature distribution.

Because without cooling, we are closer to the adiabatic limit [ no heat loss ] - the bulb is
tending toward uniform temperature. This means that parts of the bulb will actually be
HOTTER with no heat source and no cooling than they would be WITH the heat source
on - but being cooled.

THAT'S why projectors and other devices have a cooldown cycle after you turn them off -
it prevents overheating of PORTIONS of the bulb.

If you want to fully protect your projector bulb - then you want to have the post-use
cooldown cycle - which means that in the case of a power failure - you should have a
UPS to maintain normal cooling flow; and not let portions of the bulb overheat.

That being said - since the cooldown cycle is just a few minutes - the above statement
about 15-20 minutes of UPS capacity sufficing is correct. The purpose of the UPS is
not so that you can finish the movie - it's so you can successfully complete the projector's
cooldown cycle. That cooldown cycle has been designed into the projector for the reasons
I elucidate above.

lcaillo, I've taken the time to read your posts carefully. You do seem well informed:)
Confusion about these things is widespread indeed. Most threads never lead to an accepted conclusion, hence the position in which I started this thread.
I've read a great many reviews about how good the sound is after power conditioning. I'll post the reviewers webpage (deals exclusively with audio improvement gear) here when I get home but the reviewer swears by the improvements he can hear. Equi=tech being the crème de la crème.

But basically, you are saying that switching PSU's pretty much cover all the bases except for surge protection? One small remark, while I certainly do agree that most modern equipment is able to handle it, my concern is also along the lines of: am I getting the best out of it and is "bad" power shortening its life?
Are all modern power supplies (Kuro TV, Panasonic) of the switching type?


Would a local electrician carry the gear to examin this? I'm most interested in these objective measurements!

The need for lamp cool down is largely an overplayed myth to sell UPSs. Nearly all projectors have a thermal switch that will not allow a hot restart, which is what will damage a lamp. Post power fans are largely to speed up the process of cooling the lamp so that it can be restarted if needed. Thermal lag in lamp systems simply has not been confirmed by anyone that I have found.



You seem to be well informed except on this matter, I have two digital CINEMA PROJECTOR INSTALLATIONS where the temperatures accumulated by a complete power outage from normal operation can be reviewed in a temperature and fan log , such log gives you detailed information on about a dozen different sensor points inside the projector. At least three of these sensors showed near catastrophic conditions on this report. IOW with high power xenon lamps a UPS is indispensable.

You seem to be well informed except on this matter, I have two digital CINEMA PROJECTOR INSTALLATIONS where the temperatures accumulated by a complete power outage from normal operation can be reviewed in a temperature and fan log , such log gives you detailed information on about a dozen different sensor points inside the projector. At least three of these sensors showed near catastrophic conditions on this report. IOW with high power xenon lamps a UPS is indispensable.
CINERAMAX,

CORRECT - if lcaillo were correct - projectors wouldn't need cooldown cycles in the first
place. It is counter-intuitive to think that portions of the bulb and projector could actually
get HOTTER if the power were simply cut than they do when the bulb is on and there
is actually an active heat source.

However, if you REALLY UNDERSTAND cooling and Newton's laws of cooling, and
temperature distributions - it actually comes as no surprise.

This may be the case with large projectors with Xenon lamps, but with all of the consumer projectors that I have seen there is no thermal lag. After discussing the matter with engineers a 6 different projector makers, they all said the same thing...if you have repeated outages, a UPS may be a benefit to reduce the restarts. Otherwise, none of them have found the thermal lag after the mercury arcs extinguish. In consumer applications is is simply not an issue. The companies that I have worked for have hundreds of installs out there with no UPS and we have more power outages in this part of FL than in most areas. We simply do not see problems when power goes out. I have measure temps at the base of the lamps and when the power drops out, the temperature immediately drops. Even in very tight projectors with poor ventilation, I have been able to detect no thermal lag. Engineers that I have spoken with at Philips and Osram have said the same...it is something to look at as a possibility, but they have not seen it as a problem. Again, we do not see early failures of lamps on systems that do not use a UPS.

Now Xenon lamps at very high powers may behave differently. I do not have experience with these.

This may be the case with large projectors with Xenon lamps, but with all of the consumer projectors that I have seen there is no thermal lag. After discussing the matter with engineers a 6 different projector makers, they all said the same thing...if you have repeated outages, a UPS may be a benefit to reduce the restarts. Otherwise, none of them have found the thermal lag after the mercury arcs extinguish. In consumer applications is is simply not an issue. ..; Again, we do not see early failures of lamps on systems that do not use a UPS.

Now Xenon lamps at very high powers may behave differently. I do not have experience with these.
lcaillo,

You continue to MISUNDERSTAND!! We are NOT talking "thermal lag" - we are
talking about OVERHEATING!!

Your temperature measurements are MEANINGLESS because you are NOT measuring
INSIDE the bulbs!!! Now go back and read my first response until you UNDERSTAND it.

Although the problem is more acute with Xenon bulbs - it is there for all types of bulbs.

One shouldn't be making "blanket statements' about what is / is not good for equipment
unless one understands the physics of the problem completely.

lcallo,

WRONG - this is INCORRECT that the thermal switch can protect the lamp when the
cooling flow is disconnected.



I did not say that the thermal switch has anything to do with protection when the cooling ceases. I said it does not allow the hot restart of a lamp. You assume that the heat generated by the lamp continues after the cooling flow ceases. This is where I believe that you are wrong. The arc extinguishes very rapidly, and is out before the fans stop turning in the projectors that I have tested.


Also, even in high outage area like we have around here, the frequency is not that great. The vendors have repeatedly told me that it is just not something to be very concerned about. There is nothing wrong with being safe if you prefer, but I do not consider a UPS a good value, even for a lamp based projector.

The hysteria on the matter has led many people to buy UPS products that have poorer surge suppression than they would otherwise likely been able to buy, which causes far more problems, IME.

I did not say that the thermal switch has anything to do with protection when the cooling ceases. I said it does not allow the hot restart of a lamp. You assume that the heat generated by the lamp continues after the cooling flow ceases. This is where I believe that you are wrong. The arc extinguishes very rapidly, and is out before the fans stop turning in the projectors that I have tested.
caillo,

GADS - you REALLY don't understand this!!

Contrary to your erroneous claim above - I did NOT say that the heating continues.

In fact - I said that when the power fails - we are close to the adiabatic limit - evidently
you don't know what that means.

The heating does not contine - but the heat that is there REDISTRIBUTES in a manner
such that portions of the bulb are actually HOTTER without the heat source and without
cooling than they would be if there was heating but the bulb was being forcibly cooled.

In fact I already said that in my previous post which you either didn't read or don't understand.

PLEASE - go READ that post and try to imagine what the temperature DISTRIBUTION
in the bulb is!!! Temperatures at the base of the bulb outside the envelope are NOT
definitive.

Additionally, if you don't have experience with Xenon systems; please make that caveat
clear before offering more faulty information that could harm people's systems.

In the final analysis, why do you think the projector manufacturers design a cooldown cycle
following power down into their units in the first place? Just for "grins" or just to show they
can do it?

The post power-down cooling cycle is there for a REASON!!! If that post-shutdown cooling
cycle doesn't happen for lack of power - then the projector isn't operating as the manufacturer
intends. The purpose of the UPS is so that the projector's shutdown can be NORMAL - and
in accordance with how the device's designers INTENDED for the unit to shutdown.

People should be very WARY of anyone that gives blanket advice that is counter to the
normal processes built into the device by its designers.

That is contrary to what Philips and Osram have described to me. The cooling is indirect on these lamps, not directly on the envelope. Your assumptions seem to assume that the fans blow directly on the arc envelope, which they do not. You make some assumptions that are not borne out by my experience and extensive discussions with vendors over the last decade.

If it was such a problem, we would have had many premature lamp failures, in the many instalations with no UPS. We have not, and I can think of several clients right away that are on systems that go down frequently in rural areas. I just have not found it to be a problem. I started discussing it with vendors long ago and I always get the same responses...the marketing and low level tech support people scare folks with the notion that it is a serious problem to cover the mftr's back side and the engineers say not to be concerned about it.

Again, this may be very different with the larger Xenon lamps in digital cinema units. I am not familiar with the cooling schemes in those units. I would also assume that such systems would have power backup and power conditioning due to the expense of the system. There may be other sensitivities that I am not aware of.

The hysteria on the matter has led many people to buy UPS products that have poorer surge suppression than they would otherwise likely been able to buy, which causes far more problems, IME.

It's not hysteria, it's common sense. If it weren't an issue, there'd be no cool down cycle. It's the same reason they recommend idling your car for 5 minutes or so before and after running your engine at higher speeds (not that anyone does this). Besides, all you have to do is plug the UPS into a higher grade surge suppressor if you want better suppression and have the best of both worlds.

Don't let Greg's style of slash and burn persuasion reflexively let you avoid the common sense answer on this one.

I have related the information that I have consistently heard from engineers at the various vendors, including the lamp vendors, as well as my service experience with hundreds of clients' installations. The bottom line to me is that if you are concerned with it, get a UPS. I have no problem with that. The only problem that I have is when people get sold cheap UPS systems with lousy protection and don't know any better. There is nothing wrong with buying a UPS or anything else if it makes you more confident in your system. The notion that it is essential is simply not borne out by my experience.

Again, I am talking about consumer units with mercury lamps.

That is contrary to what Philips and Osram have described to me. The cooling is indirect on these lamps, not directly on the envelope. Your assumptions seem to assume that the fans blow directly on the arc envelope, which they do not. You make some assumptions that are not borne out by my experience and extensive discussions with vendors over the last decade.

lcaillo

WRONG!!! WRONG!! 100% WRONG!!!

It doesn't MATTER how the cooling is done - direct / indirect / WHATEVER!!!

In order for there to be cooling - there has to be a non-zero spatial derivative in the
temperature distribution - that's basic physics.

When the cooling ceases - then the latent energy in the device will redistribute so that
the device goes to a uniform temperature. That's the ONLY steady-state solution when
there is neither a heat source nor a heat sink.

That uniform equilibrium temperature will be GREATER for some parts of the bulb than
those temperatures would be if the heat source were active AND the heat sink - the
cooling by WHATEVER means is also active.

Now stop telling me what assumptions I am and am not making when you don't
the basic physics. It doesn't matter WHAT advances have been made - manufacturers
can NOT get around the basic laws of heat flow.

Tell me why you think projector manufacturers design a post shutdown cooling cycle
into their products.

Again, I am talking about consumer units with mercury lamps.

First - you didn't make that caveat clear in your first posting.

Additionally, even consumer gear with mercury lamps have cooldown cycles designed in.

Lousy surge suppression isn't the only issue here. It is also BAD to tell people that they
need not have any concern for power failures. It's like telling someone there's no risk in
not having a UPS on their computer. On many computer systems; you can lose data
when the power fails.

I'm not telling people to get or not get a UPS; that's for them to decide. But what I am
NOT doing is giving people a false sense of security by telling them a problem doesn't
exist and there's no risk - when there IS a risk!!!

Greg, could you try arguing without using the term "WRONG!!!"? It really isn't helpful. And sometimes the "WRONG" part is also, well, 'wrong'.

First - you didn't make that caveat clear in your first posting.

Additionally, even consumer gear with mercury lamps have cooldown cycles designed in.

Lousy surge suppression isn't the only issue here. It is also BAD to tell people that they
need not have any concern for power failures. It's like telling someone there's no risk in
not having a UPS on their computer. On many computer systems; you can lose data
when the power fails.

I'm not telling people to get or not get a UPS; that's for them to decide. But what I am
NOT doing is giving people a false sense of security by telling them a problem doesn't
exist and there's no risk - when there IS a risk!!!

Fine Greg, you are right, I am WRONG, and stand corrected.

Now that we've all got that out of our system any moderately good HT UPS will ensure there is power long enough to get things cooled down. At any rate backup power is always a good thing to have.

Here is the link to the site that reviews power conditioners (audiophile alert!). There are many manufacturers I've never even heard about

http://www.soundstageav.com/avreviews_power.html

Besides the issue of alowing a fan to run to allow maximum lamp life ,is there anything in Icaillo's post that doesn't represent a great synopsis of the facts?

Art

I'm still waiting for fusion, Morbius :D

1. Surge suppression
2. Switching transients

These are handled perfectly well by inexpensive surge suppressors, well under $100, some as cheap as $20.

Indeed.. Not a real problem

3. Consistent over voltage
4. Brownouts and sags

These are virtually irrelevant to most modern video with switching power supplies. Most can easily handle 90 to 130 volt swings and still regulate fine. Nearly all have protection that will shut the unit down if it goes too low or too high.
Shutting the unit down ican be in itself a problem in itself. If a power supply is forced in a completely shutdown mode the consequences may be very serious, whether in Audio or Video... We need not get back to the Projector Lamps issues. Also undervoltage below 90 Volts are not well handled by most Switching Power supplies. Overvoltages over 130 VAC while not that common in the USA do occur quite frequently and there again most power supplies can not deal with it. Brownouts remain frequent in some places in the USA. Miami for one...Modern Switching Power supplies shouldn't be seen as foolproof virtually indestructible items... Under severe input imbalance they tend to compensate by sending very high current spikes on their output...

5. Black outs (for the projector folks). UPS capability is not that important.
15-30 min. tops should suffice.

The need for lamp cool down is largely an overplayed myth to sell UPSs. Nearly all projectors have a thermal switch that will not allow a hot restart, which is what will damage a lamp. Post power fans are largely to speed up the process of cooling the lamp so that it can be restarted if needed. Thermal lag in lamp systems simply has not been confirmed by anyone that I have found.


Already answered by Morbius, I'll add that 30 minutes is quite along time to ask for most UPS... 10 minutes should be OK.. Time to turn off everything and be done, if generator is present even less...
6. Frequency variation (no perfect sine wave?)

This is simply not an issue. Small variations in line frequency are completely irrelevant to most power supplies. Large variations have not been shown to exist. The stepped sine wave from a UPS is FAR more likely to cause a problem than anything found on most power lines. As mentioned above, and suggested by Mark, modern switching power supplies are very robust in dealing with this kind of thing.

Sinewave UPS are rather common.. I agree with you that the stepped wave from cheap UPS is potentialy worse than small Frequency variationsa very serious problem. I would you like to point me to an article where "large variations (in frequency) have not been shown to exist".
A Power Quality, Radio Shack has (had) one in their catalog will log these for you. I admit they are not a serious concern in most electronics however especially Switched mode power supplies.. They affect linear power supplies however, which continued to be found in many Audio gear.

1. Line noise caused by RFI and EMI interference.
2. Harmonic distortion. Has something to do with non-linear loads from the connected devices, I think:).

This mostly gets filtered by the power supply. Most modern power supplies have filters on the primary to keep the crud generated by the switching circuits out of the other components and to reduce the effects of less well filtered units. It really does not affect performance anyway, though it might slightly affect the efficiency of a power supply, or confuse a voltage detecting circuit in some units. The noise never gets to the video and audio circuits. No one has ever shown that line noise affects the image nor sound quality in a system with a switching supply. The switching pulses generated by the supplies themselves are FAR more significant. Conventional audio supplies MAY be somewhat affected, but again, no one has shown the post power supply effects. Certainly the line filters reduce noise, but to what gain. I know I have looked for it and it just does not get to the critical circuits. That said, ground noise may affect some systems, but proper wiring and gronding usually fixes this.

Mostly agreeing with you there except that grounding is not such a trivial matter to this days Grounding remains a very arcane matter, largely above the head of most HT enthusiasts. Usual line oise can be a problem but anyone who has lived close to a Radio Station Transmitter or some Radar can attest to the effect of line noise on modern electronics computer included.


connections to protect (all equally important)

1. Power to the devices
2. I don't know of the different systems (Europe vs America) but the coax cable which holds the TV signals
3. For digital interactive TV, CAT 5 UTP cable and or DSL cable

All need to be protected. They can be well protected by a well designed cheap surge suppressor.

IME and IMNSHO, most UPS systems and power conditioners are a waste of time and money, and just one more component to stuff into landfills when the batteries die. Good system design and grounding, along with good basic surge suppression on all power and signal lines can be accomplished with very little investment, and is very effective even in high lightning areas like we have here


Vety liitlle investment s relative. The knowledge to do it is not trivial nor readily available. A good UPS by shielding the equipment from the nasties is to me a worthwhile investment especially in a High End HT system... A good PRO Sine wave UPS can be had for less than 3,000 it will most likely the most complex HT... I sincerely do not care about the "Audiophile" line-conditioners.. A waste of money if you ask me... Go with APC, Liebert, Eaton and TrippLite..
Where I reside a UPS are necessities. We have to produce our own power either for business or residence...

There seems to be numerable references to switching power supplies. But most of my A-V equipment does not have switching power supplies, and I suspect that is true of many others reading this thread. How do these arguments related to our case?

Frantz and lcaillo (which hopefully hasn't left this thread!), Humbug makes a good point here. I know my computers PSU is of the switching type but how do we identify this for other peripherals?

I've found the price of non-audiophile power gear is largely dependant on its output capacity and UPS type. If you are looking for < 3000watts you will be settled for about $1000-$1500.
So, a relatively cheap surge suppressor (any recommendation on the min. joule rating?) will do the job just fine and cover the surge/transients issues.
But if, for some reason, (you've mentioned a few) one does need clean power or simply battery back up, do you place the surge suppressor before or after the (true online) UPS (in case you want battery backup + dual conversion)/line conditioner? It would make sense to place it before to protect the UPS. I'm asking this because APC's online UPS solutions have a very low joule rating compared to even a cheap surge suppressor. There can be a number of reasons for this:

1) Different product, different goal. A powerful surge will take out the UPS only since for power it creates AC from its battery.

2) it is expected to place a surge suppressor before the UPS.

Alright, in an attempt to make this thread more concrete, I'd like to compare the PPP from ps Audio (sorry Frantz, it does look nice, doesn't it:D)

vs the brickwall unit: http://brickwall.thomasnet.com/item/standard-surge-protectors/eight-outlet-surge-protectors/pw8r15?&forward=1


I like it that both manufacturers state the spec's, gives me a more confident feeling in their product.

PPP:

Peak Current surge: 144,000A (US) 84,000A (Europe/Asia)
Max Surge: 6,000 Volts
Clamp Level: 330V (US) 800V (Europe/Asia)
Telco protection: 320 Joules 395 Volts

Again, low joule rating. I must stress this again: lower than a standard surge suppressor and very similar to APC's UPS. What about the clamp level (won't 800V fry the equipment!). Max. surge looks okay. Don't know about the peak current surge?


Please visit the link for the brickwall, but there seem to be hughe differences...

e.g. Clamping Voltage Onset
172 volts nominal; 2 volts above peak line voltage

and an unlimited joule rating:confused:

Don't forget the SurgeX which licenses its surge protection to Brickwall. On the power conditioning side, you also may want to take a look at balanced power as well. I have a Furman unit that I've been pleased with, but they are offered by Equi=Tech, ExactPower and others.

Greg, could you try arguing without using the term "WRONG!!!"? It really isn't helpful. And sometimes the "WRONG" part is also, well, 'wrong'.
John,

When something is just plain WRONG - I say so!!

The fact that you ERRONEOUSLY don't believe me when I've told you
that you were WRONG - does NOT mean that I am in error.

In fact, I have yet to encounter a time when you told me that I was
wrong and that I was indeed wrong.

For instance, the time that you told me I was wrong about DEQX and
I sent an e-mail to Mr. Ryrie of DEQX explaining our discussion and
telling him my position. Mr. Ryrie sent me a very nice e-mail telling
me that I was CORRECT!!!

The point here is that there IS a risk to the projector - the projectors
have post-shutdown cooldown cycles for a REASON!! If that cooldown
cycle is not done because of power failure - then the projector is not
being operated in a manner that its designers intend. If there were
ZERO risk - why would the designer put the cooldown cycle in at all?
Just have the bulb and the fans go off when the projector was turned off.

I think it is IRRESPONSIBLE to tell people that there is no risk
when there is. The UPS is like an insurance policy - it's there to offer
protection - you get to decide how much you want.

However, if someone went around saying that there is zero need for
homeowners insurance policies because houses never burn down and
people don't sue when there is an accident - then that is just plain
IRRESPONSIBLE. If someone says that - I would say they are
just flat out WRONG!!!

I'm not pointing fingers here but we should just let it go. Although, lcaillo may have been incorrect on that single point he was only trying to be helpful and did put in the time to share what he knows on the core of this topic. Alimentall, was just politely saying to stay kind to each other:). Choosing the right battery solution is almost irrevant to this issue anyway. Most products will provide ample backup power for a projectors cooling cycle.

Thanks for the tip faberryman, It'll be a long time before I can make up my mind but the information here has been very helpful!

Jeroen

It is true that the discussion has been centered around Switch mode Power supplies. The benefits derived from using a UPS remain remain regardless of the type of power supply used.

PRO or DataCenter-type UPS are your best bet they do both.. Surge Protection and the Uninterrupted part in one unit... Make sure they produce sine wave because the stepped induce buzzing in several equipment and have been shown to deteriorate power supplies... Ask anyone in the developping world that has been using "inverters" and they will tell you ... An APC 3 KVA unit
look here (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&newwindow=1&rlz=1B2GGIC_enUS211US211&q=APC+3000+VA&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=6319233954742899841&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&resnum=1&ct=result#ps-sellers)

specs are there (http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA3000RMI2U).. That would run most serious HT with no sweat.. I do not know if they are UL rated residence or not or if they require installation by a licensed electrician in the US
Not that ugly ... and it will protect your equipment. There is a type called double conversion that COMPLETELY isolate your system from the mains. They are not as efficient as the Line-interactive models but are the ultimate in term of equipment protection. More expensive too.
The Audiophiles Lince onditionner , sometimes but not always UPS are nice and physically attractive but don't do anything special. PS Audio has a good variety but a good line interactive 3000 VA UPS from APC, Eaton, Liebert or TrippLite will cost less and do more.
I have never been convinced and today even less of the value of Audiophile Power Cords and other line conditioning. I have noticed improvements in my system since I have been using (almost by necessity) a Dual conversion Telcom Grade UPS (about 800 Pounds total not including batteries, in a separate shelter with the generator)... I have not noticed any particular improvements in Picture Quality but the sound seems better. IF one is to invest 20 K or more in a HT system, I think protecting it at the very first level with a decent $2000 UPS is wise....

I'm not pointing fingers here but we should just let it go. Although, lcaillo may have been incorrect on that single point he was only trying to be helpful and did put in the time to share what he knows on the core of this topic. Alimentall, was just politely saying to stay kind to each other:).
Jeroen,

Yes - "lcaillo" gave a very good summary; with the exception of the UPS issue. I concur
with you and FranzM on that.

However, on these issues were there are risks of damage to equipment; I can't dismiss
the promulgation of bad information just because the poster had "good intentions".

If ANYONE is going to advise people that a risk is non-existant, or they don't have to
worry about some issue or another - then the person that makes that claim here had
better PRECISELY DEFINE the circumstances under which there is no risk and not make
a blanket statement. Additionally, someone that posts such advice has to BE CORRECT!

This forum is abouit provide a service - and if someone posts bad advice; then that is a
DISSERVICE. You don't get a "pass" in my book just because you "mean well".

OK but can we move past this please?

no need to reply

John,
...
The fact that you ERRONEOUSLY don't believe me when I've told you
that you were WRONG - does NOT mean that I am in error.
...
The point here is that there IS a risk to the projector - the projectors
have post-shutdown cooldown cycles for a REASON!! If that cooldown
cycle is not done because of power failure - then the projector is not
being operated in a manner that its designers intend. If there were
ZERO risk - why would the designer put the cooldown cycle in at all?
Just have the bulb and the fans go off when the projector was turned off.

I think it is IRRESPONSIBLE to tell people that there is no risk
when there is. The UPS is like an insurance policy - it's there to offer
protection - you get to decide how much you want.


I hate when 2 differing views get clouded in "but I said your wrong and I'm right!"

Morbius, John mentioned IIRC, he understood the cool-down cycle's main purpose was to allow the projector to be restarted quickly after shutdown and that most units have thermal management that will prevent significant damage. If one allowed the unit to cool-down properly or the unit protected itself by not restarting, all you are loosing is time.

I would assume, for anything electronic, different projectors can do different things. For most recent "smart" projectors, it would seem, a UPS would be an extra level of protection not necessarily worth the extra cost for some - but for others (and you can search many posts that have annectodal info) they are worth their weight in gold - a time saver if you will. YMMV

Stop the "I'm right and your wrong" stuff and flesh out the points being made - good disscusions are rare, thanks for the great info everyone!

OK but can we move past this please?

no need to reply

SORRY

Sorry for cutting in your post but it makes replying much easier to structure...:)

Jeroen

PRO or DataCenter-type UPS are your best bet they do both.. Surge Protection and the Uninterrupted part in one unit... Make sure they produce sine wave because the stepped induce buzzing in several equipment and have been shown to deteriorate power supplies... Ask anyone in the developping world that has been using "inverters" and they will tell you ...

True sine wave dual conversion. Check.



An APC 3 KVA unit
specs are there (http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA3000RMI2U)..


A couple of remarks here:
I like the zero clamping time...however, I must nag about that joule rating again. Plus, I believe it does not have connections for coax and UTP cat 5. To solve this a separate surge suppressor will have to be placed before the UPS, IF this is allowed.


There is a type called double conversion that COMPLETELY isolate your system from the mains. They are not as efficient as the Line-interactive models but are the ultimate in term of equipment protection. More expensive too.


Do you mean by this any double conversion UPS? That what I have been wondering all the time. If there is complete isolation in these types of UPS's there would be no need for a joule rating.

Take a look here at an APC AV UPS: http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=S20BLK

notice in particular the much higher joule rating!

Jeroen

I have been on this double-conversion UPS thing for a long time. The AC provided by these type of UPS is the cleanest, beter stabilized and quasi EMI/RFI free AC power. No brownout, no sags, no overvoltage, no nothing.. The UPS GENERATES its AC power all the time. It is likely these even more so than the more common line-interactive models would require Professional Installation but it is to me worth it... Just like basic insurance you can get away with it for a lifetime and blam an unexpected events wipes out the (unwise) savings... I don't care how well you design a power supply but an undervoltage of say 80 volt followed by an immediate overvoltage of 150 followed by a blackout will wreak havoc with a system... a good UPS shield yo form that. Under voltage the UPS disconnect the AC main lines and switches to batteries monitoring the line AC quality.. subsequent and immediate overvoltage? the UPS still has not reconnected the AC to your system it still is monitoring and will not reconnect your HT to the main AC power if the parmaters are not adequate...
With these you do not get the Coax UTP protection of consumer grade UPS , use anything from Belkin or other to do so or even better use Sentrex or Panamax if it has to be...
I have an office in MiamiFL and the brownouts are frequents... When lighting strikes nearby the equipment reacts to it even when not a direct hit ( in passing NOTHING can protect against a direct lightning strike).. I will have a system in there and it will be protected by a PRO Grade UPS, by the way on the welcome page of AVS there is an AD for a company that sells refurb UPS... Have a look at it..

Frantz

Are these APC units sine wave?
http://www.refurbups.com/Catalog/Smart-UPS-Rack;jsessionid=0a010c441f43259f4bc4d49341eb85a196e3c94aad52 .e3eTa3aSaxmTe34Pa38Ta38Nchb0

I've been considering a UPS but full specs are difficult to obtain.

Are these APC units sine wave?
http://www.refurbups.com/Catalog/Smart-UPS-Rack;jsessionid=0a010c441f43259f4bc4d49341eb85a196e3c94aad52 .e3eTa3aSaxmTe34Pa38Ta38Nchb0

I've been considering a UPS but full specs are difficult to obtain.

Yep!

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA2200R2X147

Not double conversion though, not very common and would have been more expensive but will do the an excellent job of protecting your HT... again a worthwhile IMHO..

With all due respect, how will that APC unit alone, do a great job of protecting one's gear?

Yep!

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA2200R2X147

Not double conversion though, not very common and would have been more expensive but will do the an excellent job of protecting your HT... again a worthwhile IMHO..

Assuming that normal wall power is working, do these degrade the sonics or video of the equipment plugged into them?

Dave

Where I live the power is VERY "dirty" and very bad when it is available ( less than 4 hours/day) so yes I have heard improvemnts in sound , subtle but to me real. PQ quality no... My video system is however middle-of-the-road (Sony VPL-100-based) so it could be that... The UPS I use in my Audio and video systemsm is rather particular. Telco-Carrier type, Ferro-resonant, Double Conversion with THD under 3% at any load up to 150% rated output, conservatively rated at 10 KVA. It is actually rated to function with no problem for 3 hours at 150% duty...
The debate will rage on the value of clean power but in IT, power quality is a serious consideration. I went through the experience in my former business (ISP/Data Commuincations Provider).. I must add that I am back to the same type of business and I made sure of acquiring good UPS but a more modern design, much more efficient

I had to paint the HT-room today and pick up furniture so there was little time to spare to pursue the power mania:(

On the matter of surge protection (clean power left aside for a second):

I can say this: I have strong reasons to believe a true online or dual conversion UPS' surge protection is there to protect the unit itself. This would account for the (much) higher joule rating APC's line conditioners have. I would therefore carefully recommend placing a better surge protector before the (expensive!) UPS unit.

In the field of surge protectors, there are two big contenders: those who 'shunt' the power towards the ground wire and those who steadily release the surge (after having absorbed a spike or transient) to the neutral wire. In general, I believe they are called serial surge protectors and the 'shunt' types are parallel.
I'm a little short on information to decide which type is the better but I can also say there are some disadvantages to diverting power to the ground wire.
At first this struck me as being strange (what else is the ground wire there for in the first place) but there does appear to be something more to it than meets the eye.
I will be searching for more detailed information regarding the advantages and disadvantages.

On the matter of clean power:

A nice 'side affect' of a dual conversion UPS is that it can generate new cleaner power. The good one's will do a good job for sure and output a nice sine wave. The most important difference seems to be the question of which filters are applied across a given frequency range. The correlation between the numbers I found were xx dB between frequency x and frequency y. I need some more time to put these numbers into perspective.

Please don't take my advice as absolutely correct and look for confirmation.


Chu Gai, funnily your name popped up in the threads on serial vs parralel surge protectors. SurgeX vs the rest:)

Yep!

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA2200R2X147

Not double conversion though, not very common and would have been more expensive but will do the an excellent job of protecting your HT... again a worthwhile IMHO..

Because this is not a true online UPS, I disagree with your statement (but in a friendly way:)). There is not enough information on its protection but the joule rating is certainly too low.

I do wonder what this means '0.3% IEEE surge let-through'. What does this imply in respect to concrete voltages?

PS: I dug up the thread dealing with serial surge suppressors. For those with some time to spare, an interesting read!

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=470228&page=2&pp=30

Hi

A joule rating is not very helpful in gauging the capacity of a surge protective device, SPD. Its just a measure of how much energy the MOV absorbs before blowing. The higher the rating, the more violent the response will be once the potential energy is released into kinetic. It has less to do with protecting the device its connected to unless the SPD you have has a very bad ground.

Its better if MOV joules are rated lower even if a MOVs life is reduced during an overvoltage events, so it tends to blow sooner and less violently. Chosen for its true protective capacity, the maximum continuous overvoltage rating, MCOV, a MOV can last forever if the voltage the MOV sees regularly is far underneath its MCOV.

MOV in UPS and line conditioners are rated higher because its made to match the maximum overvoltages the UPS or conditioner regulates against, if lower, the MOVs may blow sooner.

Its better to put an SPD after a line conditioner, because if as you say the built in SPD protects the line conditioner primarily, powerline anomalies can makes it past conditioner circuitry through the N-G pathway, to your plugged in equipment. You can plug it too before the line conditioner, but in the face of voltage irregularities the user bought the line conditioner for, the SPD will fail sooner.

Serial versus parallel surge protection was also discussed academically, and there is a chapter in Standler's book about it, which was written in 1989. The book is still in print because none of the fundamental concepts have changed since then.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GB2PC7R8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg

In a nutshell, without shunting excess energy to ground, any series surge protector acts as an exotic filter, and is limited by its design and the insulation to absorb surge energy, once those limits are exceeded, the energy can only be released either to ground or it explodes. A series mode device works best if you have whole home or building SPD using any method [MOV, gas tube etc.,], and adding serial mode to absorb what leaks by. Given that, the series mode devices are made robustly, like tanks, but once its robust parameters are exceeded, no protection is provided.

The value of the MOV is that faced with overwhelming energy, say from a lightning strike, it will burn out like a fuse, thus disconnecting your device from the power line before damage can happen. How well this is done depends on the overall design of an SPD, not just the MOV itself, and an NEC rated ground.

The above discusses only power line anomalies to protect your equipment. As to whether whatever sneaks by creates an esthetic problem, whether visually or audio wise, is another issue. In that case, a series mode device could be added to reduce harmonics and line noise far below those required for power quality.

I recently updated my home SPD with newer models. The analog video signal did improve with a UL 1449 rated SPD with coax protection, but not the digital video though. Given the analog images are inferior regardless, its a good side benefit from the SPD primary purpose of protection.

I had to paint the HT-room today and pick up furniture so there was little time to spare to pursue the power mania:(

On the matter of surge protection (clean power left aside for a second):

I can say this: I have strong reasons to believe a true online or dual conversion UPS' surge protection is there to protect the unit itself. This would account for the (much) higher joule rating APC's line conditioners have. I would therefore carefully recommend placing a better surge protector before the (expensive!) UPS unit.

In the field of surge protectors, there are two big contenders: those who 'shunt' the power towards the ground wire and those who steadily release the surge (after having absorbed a spike or transient) to the neutral wire. In general, I believe they are called serial surge protectors and the 'shunt' types are parallel.
I'm a little short on information to decide which type is the better but I can also say there are some disadvantages to diverting power to the ground wire.
At first this struck me as being strange (what else is the ground wire there for in the first place) but there does appear to be something more to it than meets the eye.
I will be searching for more detailed information regarding the advantages and disadvantages.

On the matter of clean power:

A nice 'side affect' of a dual conversion UPS is that it can generate new cleaner power. The good one's will do a good job for sure and output a nice sine wave. The most important difference seems to be the question of which filters are applied across a given frequency range. The correlation between the numbers I found were xx dB between frequency x and frequency y. I need some more time to put these numbers into perspective.

Please don't take my advice as absolutely correct and look for confirmation.


Chu Gai, funnily your name popped up in the threads on serial vs parralel surge protectors. SurgeX vs the rest:)



Because this is not a true online UPS, I disagree with your statement (but in a friendly way:)). There is not enough information on its protection but the joule rating is certainly too low.

I do wonder what this means '0.3% IEEE surge let-through'. What does this imply in respect to concrete voltages?

PS: I dug up the thread dealing with serial surge suppressors. For those with some time to spare, an interesting read!

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=470228&page=2&pp=30

See this link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15356579#post15356579

IMHO for power quality, look first at APC's line up. Its not that APC has the best equipment out there, but their products are mostly devoid of hype and are straightforward engineering solutions to various power problems.

Even when APC does not advertise what their equipment does, its engineered so well that is often exceeds expectations ... alas I cannot tell you which that is because it depends on what product you buy.

For example, I recently dissassembled APC's P11VNT3 surge suppressor and found that its meets UL 1449 3rd Edition despite not saying that on the box. None of their SPD even say its compliant with 2nd Edition either.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31vNOJi6H0L._SL500_AA250_.jpg

By comparison I found a new SpikeMaster sold at Radio Shack that says its 2nd Edition compliant, and on dissection I find it barely makes such a mark. IMHO, a c2000 APC PER7 offers better protection than this SpikeMaster.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41REPC16FQL._SL500_AA280_.jpg


Unfortunately, the only way to tell how protective these designs are are to destructively test them in a simulated surge scenario, or take cues from how the designs of reputable one's are made. I dissected Tripp Lite's top consumer brand model, I found it constructed with similar schemes in the APC, but not in the SpikeMaster. In addition Tripp Lite has a buzzer to signal its protective circuits have blown:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z03GG9M7L._SL500_AA280_.jpg

Alas, unlike APC which has APC owned factories in Asia, I have seen the APC in the Philippines, its likely Tripp outsources its design to Chinese OEM factories, and the quality control of the Tripp was not good. I found some components shorted on the Telco lines, thus providing no protection, there was dirt and human hair inside the box. Thus, I can't be sure if this model will work when the time comes. The APC, however, was made inside with the same quality as older APC's I still have around, c2000. The APC came with individual testing QA certificates the checked all inputs for working order, I know this because I bought 2 and each have stamped serial numbers on them.


If you are reading this you must have developed some interest in protecting your gear.
I am hoping a lot of people will chime in so we can use the information here to make an informed decision.
I am not at all an expert on this (far from it actually), so if any section of
this opening post is complete BS, I will correct it!


This is thread intended to:

collect and centralize some expert opinions on the matter of surge protection, power conditioning (concerned with general power imperfections), balanced power and noise suppression (more concerned with audio).
select a range of good products (best value for money). As this is a high-end-gear thread, quality obviously comes before price. I'm sure there are some good products to be found below $1000.


Problems to solve listed in order of importance (interpret as you like):


Surge suppression
Switching transients
Consistent over voltage
Brownouts and sags
Black outs (for the projector folks). UPS capability is not that important.
15-30 min. tops should suffice.
Frequency variation (no perfect sine wave?)


There are still a few terms I don't know how to qualify so I'll just mention them and someone smarter might shed some light:

1. Line noise caused by RFI and EMI interference.
2. Harmonic distortion. Has something to do with non-linear loads from the connected devices, I think:).

What connections to protect (all equally important)

1. Power to the devices(:rolleyes:)
2. I don't know of the different systems (Europe vs America) but the coax cable which holds the TV signals
3. For digital interactive TV, CAT 5 UTP cable and or DSL cable


The summary after googling a few days:

Problem's 1 and 2 are typically handled by a surge suppressor. A surge suprressor will be often embedded in the product that will handle problems 3 and 4: a line conditioner with balanced power output(I suspect this is the same as voltage regulation). Different power zones (so that one piece of equipment connected does not cause interference to other equipment) also seems like a good idea. For problem 5 a battery UPS is required. A true online UPS, also named a double conversion UPS, should cover 3-5 and and thus solve most power related problems. Unfortunately, they often SEEM to fall short as a surge/transient protector because or their low joule rating. Is this because a true online UPS uses different means to protect from surges and transients? Just take a look at the true online double conversion SMART UPS line from APC, which typically has a joule rating around 400-600 whilst many surge suppressors go well beyond 2000 joules. As a true online UP makes it own AC created from a DC source a surge may very well only take out the UPS and not the equipment. Clarity is really needed here. Oh, I have no idea what problem 6 exactly entails, but an online UPS should solve this too. The reason for all of this is that it 'creates' (regenerates) new clean power when it converts battery power back to AC.
Now, audiophiles have additional criteria. These have something to do with class D vs class AB equipment. The gest of it is that some UPS/conditioning equipment generates harmonics which have an influence on audio.

So, the question is: is there a good device out there that does all this? Clean problem free power (as a sine wave, not stepped), whilst not impacting audio negatively, that provides enough standby time to safely shutdown the equipment? Please note that devices that only offer limited surge protection MAY be assisted by a device placed at the electricity service entrance. I do not know as to what extent this will provide added protection. If someone with a background in electrical engineering could address this question:).
Another side note is that 'high-end' often seems to go hand in hand with 'split-up'. Perhaps it is possible to place a top notch line surge suppressor (either a device or something at the service entrance) before the line conditioner and then connect the latter to a UPS. Something tells me this will create havoc if I would do that:D.

In closing, I've included a list of manufacturers that, during my search, have come up enough times to be worth mentioned (in no particular order):


APC (Schneider)
PSaudio
Liebert (don't really know if they do dual conversion?)
Eaton (Powerware)
Tripp Lite
Monster (not many people seem to like this brand and accusations go as far as that Monster is not outputting a true sine wave)
Surgex
Equi=Tech
Panamax
Brickwall. Not that known (I think) but they seem to be VERY confident:-) http://www.brickwall.com/index.htm

Hi

A joule rating is not very helpful in gauging the capacity of a surge protective device, SPD. Its just a measure of how much energy the MOV absorbs before blowing. The higher the rating, the more violent the response will be once the potential energy is released into kinetic. It has less to do with protecting the device its connected to unless the SPD you have has a very bad ground.

The higher the rating, the more energy will be dissipated before exceeding the devices limits, which means larger surges can be diverted.


Its better if MOV joules are rated lower even if a MOVs life is reduced during an overvoltage events, so it tends to blow sooner and less violently. Chosen for its true protective capacity, the maximum continuous overvoltage rating, MCOV, a MOV can last forever if the voltage the MOV sees regularly is far underneath its MCOV.

This is incorrect. Lower Joule ratings means that the device is going to have its limit exceeded with smaller surges. MOVs do not have to fail to protect.

The value of the MOV is that faced with overwhelming energy, say from a lightning strike, it will burn out like a fuse, thus disconnecting your device from the power line before damage can happen. How well this is done depends on the overall design of an SPD, not just the MOV itself, and an NEC rated ground.

MOVs do not open like a fuse. MOVs nearly always fail by shorting, which is why UL1449 was introduced, requiring some form of cut-off in the event of MOV failure in order to prevent fires. Generally, a breaker will open anyway, but the issue can be a concern in very high energy events.

Hi saturation, a lot of information here. I hope you don't mind some follow up questions:). All I will be saying is meant politely and is just for the sake of argument!

Hi

A joule rating is not very helpful in gauging the capacity of a surge protective device, SPD. Its just a measure of how much energy the MOV absorbs before blowing. The higher the rating, the more violent the response will be once the potential energy is released into kinetic. It has less to do with protecting the device its connected to unless the SPD you have has a very bad ground.

Its better if MOV joules are rated lower even if a MOVs life is reduced during an overvoltage events, so it tends to blow sooner and less violently. Chosen for its true protective capacity, the maximum continuous overvoltage rating, MCOV, a MOV can last forever if the voltage the MOV sees regularly is far underneath its MCOV.


What I don't really understand anymore is the correlation between joule, volts and amps. Time to refresh that knowledge! What I do know is that during my search everything clearly indicated a higher joule rating is better. I also believe (perhaps wrongly) that when a MOV blows, the link between hot and ground, and neutral and ground is gone, leaving you unprotected. IF a surge is high enough and exeeds the energy the MOV can handle and it blows out, won't the surge take out the equipment also?
Well then, what would be the criteria in gauging a SPD?


MOV in UPS and line conditioners are rated higher because its made to match the maximum overvoltages the UPS or conditioner regulates against, if lower, the MOVs may blow sooner.


I'm agreeing that they (we are talking about the joule rating here, yes?)are rated higher with line conditioners, but not with UPS devices (check out APC's products for confirmation, if you'd like I could look up the links and post them here). Again, stand alone surge protectors' MOV are rated a lot higher than those of UPS'. This is contradictory to what you say is best. After rereading I noticed I may have misunderstood you. Are you saying the MOV's in the respective devices are joule rated according to their ability to regulate voltage: the higher the joule rating the better the voltage regulation?


Its better to put an SPD after a line conditioner, because if as you say the built in SPD protects the line conditioner primarily, powerline anomalies can makes it past conditioner circuitry through the N-G pathway, to your plugged in equipment. You can plug it too before the line conditioner, but in the face of voltage irregularities the user bought the line conditioner for, the SPD will fail sooner.


This is an interesting one here! Could you explain how the surge could get past via the N-G pathway (just out of curiosity)?
I'm disagreeing here also. The SPD will only shunt to ground voltages that are high enough (I believe this is called the clamping voltage). The voltages that are allowed to pass MAY very likely still not be perfect (under or overvoltage) but will be dealt with by the line conditioner. I believe a good surge protector should make sure the line conditioner will never see a surge. Replace line conditioner with UPS for this entire story, the idea behind it remains the same.




In a nutshell, without shunting excess energy to ground, any series surge protector acts as an exotic filter, and is limited by its design and the insulation to absorb surge energy, once those limits are exceeded, the energy can only be released either to ground or it explodes. A series mode device works best if you have whole home or building SPD using any method [MOV, gas tube etc.,], and adding serial mode to absorb what leaks by. Given that, the series mode devices are made robustly, like tanks, but once its robust parameters are exceeded, no protection is provided.

The value of the MOV is that faced with overwhelming energy, say from a lightning strike, it will burn out like a fuse, thus disconnecting your device from the power line before damage can happen. How well this is done depends on the overall design of an SPD, not just the MOV itself, and an NEC rated ground.





Thanks for the link, and sorry I've cut the last portion of you post (but it makes it easier to structure a reply). Zero surge claims its surge protector can absorb an unlimited joule rating (with this they mean no surge, apart from lightning, will be able to upset the device).

What I am wondering about the most is how serial devices will protect from surges coming via the gound wire due to inductive coupling.

Lcaillo has beaten me to it, although I could swear his post was not there when I started typing.
Perhaps you could share your opinion with regards to serial SPD's like zero surge? If you can spare the time, please read the link I provided. A lot has been discussed there but for me there is no definitive answer regarding protection against ground wire surges.

As I have said many times, series mode systems are great filters typically, and can be great for surge suppression. The problem with most of them is that they do not have protection for all signal lines which is where most lightning damage actually comes from. I continue to suggest that the most practical and effective protection for most people is to verify that the system is grounded according to code, all of the ground connections are clean and tight, and use an inexpensive MOV based surge suppressor that protects ALL signal lines.

My plan is a zero surge and then an UPS/line conditioner. The ZS will protect hot and neutral+ do some good filtering, the UPS/line conditioner will protect hot, neutral (what get's past the ZS) and ground+some nice clean power. In case this is the worst plan ever I guess that is what I'm up to.

and Lcaillo I believe no device will be able to fight lightning, and win.

and Lcaillo I believe no device will be able to fight lightning, and win.

I keep seeing this assumption, but it is really not true. I have seen hundreds of systems struck by lightning, and most strikes are not direct to the home. Nearby strikes can certainly be dealt with and I have seen many, many systems with severe damage to other components and devices in a home with absolutely no damage to the system that was properly protected (meaning well grounded and all signal lines protected). I have also seen homes take direct hits which vaporizes some parts and traces on circuit boards on unprotected equipment, while those on the surge suppressors are fine. Again, most of the damage in these events comes in on poorly grounded and unprotected signal lines. You can bet that in a lighting event, the modem on a phone or cable line will be toast if it is not protected, and in many cases the connected audio system gets grounds destroyed on input boards and TV tuners get toasted. Of the hundreds of installations that are done by the dealers that I have worked for that proplerly protect their systems with inexpensive SS as I have described, I never see damage on those components. I see hundreds of other systems that get severe damage and they never have proper protection.

I concur with Lcaillo. In addition readers should see obtain this authoritative booklet from NIST:

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf

Its free, and yes, properly engineered you can win against surges and lightning in most instances.

I keep seeing this assumption, but it is really not true. I have seen hundreds of systems struck by lightning, and most strikes are not direct to the home. Nearby strikes can certainly be dealt with and I have seen many, many systems with severe damage to other components and devices in a home with absolutely no damage to the system that was properly protected (meaning well grounded and all signal lines protected). I have also seen homes take direct hits which vaporizes some parts and traces on circuit boards on unprotected equipment, while those on the surge suppressors are fine. Again, most of the damage in these events comes in on poorly grounded and unprotected signal lines. You can bet that in a lighting event, the modem on a phone or cable line will be toast if it is not protected, and in many cases the connected audio system gets grounds destroyed on input boards and TV tuners get toasted. Of the hundreds of installations that are done by the dealers that I have worked for that proplerly protect their systems with inexpensive SS as I have described, I never see damage on those components. I see hundreds of other systems that get severe damage and they never have proper protection.

The higher the rating, the more energy will be dissipated before exceeding the devices limits, which means larger surges can be diverted.
This is incorrect. Lower Joule ratings means that the device is going to have its limit exceeded with smaller surges. MOVs do not have to fail to protect.
MOVs do not open like a fuse. MOVs nearly always fail by shorting, which is why UL1449 was introduced, requiring some form of cut-off in the event of MOV failure in order to prevent fires. Generally, a breaker will open anyway, but the issue can be a concern in very high energy events.



1. Yes, like a watt rating for a resistor, joules or watt-seconds, has become popular to describe energy absorbing capacity for MOVs, but it comes most for marketing purposes than for engineering sound practice.

2. This may help, its essentially a textbook of the surges info online:

http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/spd-anthology/

On the joule itself in Surges:

www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/spd-anthology/files/No%20 (http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/spd-anthology/files/No%20)joules.pdf

A more direct description, see point #13:

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=138984

Although Eaton's brochure may favor Eaton products, the basic information is sound, here quoted:
Why joules and response time are irrelevant specifications?
Joule ratings are not an approved specification for surge protective
devices. IEEE, IEC and NEMA do not recommend using Joule ratings
when specifying or comparing surge suppressors because they can
provide misleading and conflicting information. For example, on a 120
volt system, a 150 volt or 175 volt MOV could be used. Even though
the 175 volt MOV has a higher Joule rating, the 150 volt has a much
lower let-through voltage and offers better surge protection

A paper describing in detail why the joule rating is not recommended by many key authoritative engineering organizations:

http://www.diacthai.com/TVSSManuals/Energy%20%5BJoule%5D%20Ratings.pdf

3. Failure modes of MOVs:

D. Birrell & R. B. Standler: "Failures of Surge Arrestors on Low-Voltage Mains," IEEE Transactions on Power Delivery, 1993, Vol. 8, No. 1

1. The MOV fails as a short circuit.
2. The MOV fails as an open circuit.
3. The MOV fails as a linear resistance.
Note: Small-diameter MOVs that initially fail short circuit are likely to fail as an open circuit due to the absorption of large continuous current within the MOV.
For details free summary of Birell see:

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/04_b/04_b_brown.htm

I am not saying that Joule ratings are the best way to compare divices. What I am saying is the notion that lower Joule ratings are better is nonsense, in general.

As for the failure modes of MOVs, of course they can fail as an open circuit, but it is far more likely that they fail as a dead short. They act as an open circuit under normal conditions, and when the clamping voltage is exceeded they act like a short, or nearly so. When they fail due to an excessive current the nearly always do so as a short. While it is true that if you had a defective one that was open and would not clamp, you would never know without testing it, most MOV based systems have multiple MOVs in parallell and in combinations between the conductors. The result in a decent quality surge suppressor is that you would have less current handling capacity, but it would still work. Experience in the field is that they usually fail with a short. Call a couple of surge suppressor makers and ask them. I have.

I do not want to lead this thread in another direction, but I urgently need some assistance in finding a Power Protection device taht will work in my enviroment.

I have quite a few hi-end A/V pieces located in a remote mountain site, where the electricity surges quite a bit. The problem we have had, is that the previous Surge/power conditioners only worked to 129 volts (117 volts +/- 10%), and so whenever the voltage surged to 134 volts, which it DOES on a regular basis, the the equipment would shut off.

I wanted to get a ACCUPHASE PS-1210:
CLEAN POWER SUPPLY PS-1210 Tap into a totally clean source of AC energy - Revolutionary waveform shaping technology enables highly precise compensation, creating a pure energy source of 230 V AC (or 120 V AC) ±2% with max. 0.22% THD. Connect audio or video equipment for a drastic improvement in sound and picture quality. Monitor output power (VA), input/output voltage (V), and input/output distortion (%) on the built-in meter.
AC voltage stabilizer based on waveform shaping technology
Acts as a source of extremely clean energy
Low-distortion reference waveform generator
Highly effective waveform compensation
Outstanding current capability
Built-in meter for monitoring five vital parameters: output power, input/output voltage, input/output distortion
Elaborate protection features
Large "Max Ring" toroidal transformer
Approx $7K, but this also only goes up to 129 volts.

Would something as inexpensive as the APCS Type AV Power Conditioner with Battery
APC AV Black Network Manageable 1.25kW S Type Power Conditioner w Battery Backup 120V
work, or is there a better solution?

Thanks

What is the total wattage of all items to be powered by the power supply?

Do you have under voltages too?

Do you have brownouts?

Do you wish the device to function in a brownout?

When under or over voltage anomalies occur, do they last longer than a minute or just a quick second or two?




I do not want to lead this thread in another direction, but I urgently need some assistance in finding a Power Protection device taht will work in my enviroment.

I have quite a few hi-end A/V pieces located in a remote mountain site, where the electricity surges quite a bit. The problem we have had, is that the previous Surge/power conditioners only worked to 129 volts (117 volts +/- 10%), and so whenever the voltage surged to 134 volts, which it DOES on a regular basis, the the equipment would shut off.

I wanted to get a ACCUPHASE PS-1210:
CLEAN POWER SUPPLY PS-1210 Tap into a totally clean source of AC energy - Revolutionary waveform shaping technology enables highly precise compensation, creating a pure energy source of 230 V AC (or 120 V AC) ±2% with max. 0.22% THD. Connect audio or video equipment for a drastic improvement in sound and picture quality. Monitor output power (VA), input/output voltage (V), and input/output distortion (%) on the built-in meter.
AC voltage stabilizer based on waveform shaping technology
Acts as a source of extremely clean energy
Low-distortion reference waveform generator
Highly effective waveform compensation
Outstanding current capability
Built-in meter for monitoring five vital parameters: output power, input/output voltage, input/output distortion
Elaborate protection features
Large "Max Ring" toroidal transformer
Approx $7K, but this also only goes up to 129 volts.

Would something as inexpensive as the APCS Type AV Power Conditioner with Battery
APC AV Black Network Manageable 1.25kW S Type Power Conditioner w Battery Backup 120V
work, or is there a better solution?

Thanks

Just get a good tue online UPS that outputs a SINE wave (not stepped or squared) and put a surge protector in front of it. A UPS will create 'new' power and hence will not allow over voltage simply because it recreates its power. I'm just a tad worried about the life expectancy of the device (the UPS) if the overvoltages are very frequent. I do not think 134 volts can considered to be a surge. A surge protector will NOT protect you from this kind of over voltage but from eum surges. Do make sure the SP can provide enough power to the UPS. In other words the SP should be able to provide a tad more than the UPS can draw.

I'll think about your situation for a while. The above is the first that came to me. Don't spent 7k though:D

Out of curiousity, intexltd, have you notified your utility company of your findings?

Hi saturation, a lot of information here. I hope you don't mind some follow up questions:). All I will be saying is meant politely and is just for the sake of argument!

My pleasure. Took a while to read the old posts. I'm surprised Zero Surge was willing to debate the issue.

What I don't really understand anymore is the correlation between joule, volts and amps. Time to refresh that knowledge! What I do know is that during my search everything ..



clearly indicated a higher joule rating is better. I also believe (perhaps wrongly)
that when a MOV blows, the link between hot and ground, and neutral and ground is gone, leaving you unprotected. IF a surge is high enough and exeeds the energy the MOV can handle and it blows out, won't the surge take out the equipment also?
Well then, what would be the criteria in gauging a SPD?




Joule is watt-second, watt = Volt x Amps. The reason the joule is disfavored is no standard way to measure or report it by MOV makers, so it tends to be hyped for sales reasons.
Good designs require fuses to blow before the MOV fails. Most modern designs require a series fuse with the MOV, often current rated, and another thermal fuse linked to the MOV, which disconnects the power to the equipment based on temperature.
The criteria for gauging SPD are its UL 1449 criteria, so if your SPD is not UL or NRTL rated, its not certified to meet UL criteria. Details here: http://www.epinions.com/review/APC_11_OUT_SURG_W_TEL_COA_EA_APNP11VNT3_Surge_Suppressor/content_453665328772


I'm agreeing that they (we are talking about the joule rating here, yes?)are rated higher with line conditioners, but not with UPS devices (check out APC's products for confirmation, if you'd like I could look up the links and post them here). Again, stand alone surge protectors' MOV are rated a lot higher than those of UPS'. This is contradictory to what you say is best. After rereading I noticed I may have misunderstood you. Are you saying the MOV's in the respective devices are joule rated according to their ability to regulate voltage: the higher the joule rating the better the voltage regulation?

Since the joule rating is inaccurate, I do not refer to it. I was referring to the 'let through' voltage, in APCs lingo, of the UPS vs the SPD. The SPD typically use UL 1449 SVR voltage of about 330V, whereas the APC 1200 Line R has a let through of ~400V. The 1200 is higher because the maximum voltage it can be exposed to to regulate is 240V, which is really 240V rms. This means the peak to peak voltage is 240 X 1.414 ~ 340V, so APC will choose a MOV that has a rating slightly above that and matched to a UL required current rating.


This is an interesting one here! Could you explain how the surge could get past via the N-G pathway (just out of curiosity)?
I'm disagreeing here also. The SPD will only shunt to ground voltages that are high enough (I believe this is called the clamping voltage). The voltages that are allowed to pass MAY very likely still not be perfect (under or overvoltage) but will be dealt with by the line conditioner. I believe a good surge protector should make sure the line conditioner will never see a surge. Replace line conditioner with UPS for this entire story, the idea behind it remains the same.

A socket properly wired to code, the NEC, there are 3 wires per receptacle. Recall wires can generate current when exposed to magnetic fields, or generally any EMF, so current can flow between any pair of leads. Thus a good SPD has protection on all combinations of leads, N-G, L-N, L-G.

Since the "line conditioner" is rated up to 240V, in this case the APC LE 1200, while the SPD only 120V, if voltages vary in the home enough that you require a line conditioner, plugging the SPD before the conditioner will expose it above its rated voltage and it will likely blow.

Thanks for the link, and sorry I've cut the last portion of you post (but it makes it easier to structure a reply). Zero surge claims its surge protector can absorb an unlimited joule rating (with this they mean no surge, apart from lightning, will be able to upset the device).

Yes. Because above it rated capacity, it will simply pass the energy on through to your device, without protection but protecting itself. What they don't tell you is a typical surge, with kilovolts and kiloamps of energy, appear for microseconds, with a total joule rating typically 1, and almost none over 10. Yet, SPD are sold rated in the hundreds of joules, if that can be believed. However, as a secondary protector, it has been designed assuming there is a primary protection to absorb the initial surge, so its only made to deal with the secondary surges or home wiring surges from EMF that are known to be much smaller. The primary protection could even just be that supplied by the power or phone company, or just a good ground, per SurgeX. Many surge authorities feel a ground alone is not enough, and primary protection usually consists of a whole home or building surge device, usually a MOV based design.

http://surgex.com/faqs.html#question3

Despite the similarity and possible cross licensing, surgeX is more upfront with the limitations of its devices that are consistent with authoritative studies on surges.

What I am wondering about the most is how serial devices will protect from surges coming via the gound wire due to inductive coupling.

Yes, that is an example of N-G surges. There is no protection against such a surge, the series mode makers claim such is not an issue.

Lcaillo has beaten me to it, although I could swear his post was not there when I started typing.
Perhaps you could share your opinion with regards to serial SPD's like zero surge? If you can spare the time, please read the link I provided. A lot has been discussed there but for me there is no definitive answer regarding protection against ground wire surges.


A lively debate on AVS, no doubt and entertaining reading. Kudos to Zero Surge for willing to jump into the fire.

Another post brought up similar issues, regarding SurgeX.

I posted this here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15555694#post15555694

I tried not to duplicate any prior post, and frankly, debating 'specs' are fruitless.

A dictum in engineering is to design in only what is required, and remove the 'fluff', which costs money and time, and does not contribute to the solution. Series mode products do have a role, I can see a Zero Surge or SurgeX device in the power line of a ham radio, if conventional suppression did not improve sound quality, and likewise, for a consumer audio plagued by power noise. But until such problems are truly found, why spend $130 for a suppressor using different, bulky and expensive technology over a $30 one, unless the $30 did not work.

I have been on this double-conversion UPS thing for a long time. The AC provided by these type of UPS is the cleanest, beter stabilized and quasi EMI/RFI free AC power. No brownout, no sags, no overvoltage, no nothing.. The UPS GENERATES its AC power all the time.

I've recently been researching this issue of power devices to both protect my equipment and improve sound quality. The local hi-fi shops are pushing a variety of items from the likes of PS Audio, Richard Gray, etc. Of course they say the best is an AC regenerator like the PS Audio Power Plant Premier (PPP), but that's also very expensive.

Recently I've read more about this double conversion UPS. Seems to me that this does AC renegeneration just like the PPP. Is that correct? So why is the PPP so much more expensive? Just because it's supposed to be an "audiophile" product?

One more thing: is it advisable to hook up amps to such a double conversion UPS? I see a lot of talk about not hooking up amps due to the high current requirements (which the UPS might not be able to cope with). BTW, I'm thinking of a 2kVA rated double conversion UPS.

I purchased a Liebert UpStation 1500VA Double-Conversion UPS to provide battery backup to my HT. I have it plugged into a Brickwall series surge protector and then I have an Exactpower unit plugged into the Liebert. I purchased a refurb Liebert http://www.upsforless.com/liegxt21500rt.aspx for $349.

All appears well for a very reasonable price. The unit does the trick but the fan noise is probably a lot louder than the audiophile units. I have had to place it outside of my theater because it would be by far the loudest component that I have and would be a distraction during movies.

Would something as inexpensive as the APCS Type AV Power Conditioner with Battery APC AV Black Network Manageable 1.25kW S Type Power Conditioner w Battery Backup 120V work, or is there a better solution?
Does not matter how 'clean' the power is. The HV power supply makes typical 'dirty' electricity completely irrelevant. Most all electricity is perfectly 'clean' - more than sufficient for electronics.

The problem is a rare event that occurs typically once every seven years - a number that can vary significantly even in the same town. That rare event may even bypass both Zerosurge and UPS solutions. Any electricity so violent as to harm electronics - to blow through significant protection already inside the power supply - will also blow right through the double conversion UPS.

Myths based on assumptions claim a battery will absorb that transient. Obvious nonsense. That current will create equal voltage on both sides of the battery (battey will never see that current) while electronics is damaged by the same thousands of destructive volts.

Any protection provided by a UPS is already inside electronics power supplies. Destructive events are never stopped or absorbed. That NIST pamphlet (cited by another) is blunt:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it.
> What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor
> arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do
> no harm.

What will that UPS or Zerosurge device do? "Arrest" it? Nonsense. View its joules. Will those few hundred joules absorb a transient of hundreds of thousands of joules? Yes according to those who make claims without numbers; claims based in too many assumptions. No according to those who deal with reality and even designed this stuff.

Electronics damage means destructive transients are not inside a building. Any facility that can never suffer electronics damage (even from a direct lightning strike) does not use those UPS, et al recommendations. Instead, spends maybe tens or 100 times less money for a well provide solution. That starts with earthing. That means massive energy is absorbed harmlessly outside a building - does not enter the building. That means destructive currents are not inside hunting for earth destructively via electronics.

Effective protection means EVERYTHING in a building is protected so that protection in every household appliance is not overwhelmed. The NIST (a US government research agency) is even blunter:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector
> will work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge
> protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done
> properly.

To get the 'cleaner' sine wave (that is not cleaner than AC mains most all the time) means spending, according to the OP, $1200. And still that device does not claim to protect from any typically destructive event. If it did, he could post those numeric specs that claims protection from each type of surge. He cannot. Those numbers do not exist. Instead, it hyped a 'clean' sine wave. Then ignores how the rare and destructive event blows right through that 'cleaner'.

Proper earth ground means a protector must make a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. That UPS must completely ignore any discussion about earthing to make a sale - not even make hardware protection claims in numeric specs.

Effective protection for electronics costs about $1 per protected appliance. Protection even from direct lighting strikes using the same technology that has been proven for over 100 years.

Does your telco use that UPS? Or course not. They need effective protection so that your town does not lose phone service for four days. Solutions located too close to electronics are ineffective. Telcos put massive less expensive and effective protectors up to 50 meters distant from electronics - and as close to earth ground as possible. Therefore even direct lightning strikes do not destroy electronics - or the solution.

Where does that UPS claim protection from each type of surge - in numbers? It does not. Somehow a few hundred joules will absorb transients that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Only in myths. Somehow that little power supply inside a UPS (which is only equivalent to a supply inside electronics) will stop what three miles of sky could not? That also was claimed without supporting facts or spec numbers.

The effective solution means 'dirty' electricity is earthed before entering a building. All appliances already contain significant protection - internally. Earth destructive currents so that internal protection is not overwhelmed. Done that way for over 100 years - and for tens or 100 times less money. And still others will recommend a UPS to do what even its manufacturer will not claim in numeric specs.

"The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly." Could they be any more blunt? That defines the UPS. And that says why superior solutions are located, instead, where every wire enters the building. Nobody need know destructive currents existed even from a direct lighting strike. An effective solution, routinely installed for the past 100 years, means damage does not happen - and for many times less money.

westom's reply is wonderful, I could not have said better.

There is some confusion and mis-information on this thread about SurgeX versus BrickWall, and ZeroSurge. I researched the products for 6 or 7 months and chose SurgeX for its superior technology.

ZeroSurge, BrickWall, and Torus Power are licensees of SurgeX, not the other way around, and yes, SurgeX can take a 3000A, 6000V ( 18 million Watt ) spike and, unlike the other 3 companies, stop it dead in its tracks. No voltage whatsoever leaves the box, not on the ground or on the neutral wire like the other 3 companies. The other 3 companies are using old 1990's series mode 2-wire technology. SurgeX has gone way beyond that, and the other companies cannot use the new 3-wire technology because of the SurgeX patents.

For those of you in Hawaii, the Pacific North Western/ Hawaii region ( Washington State ) and National Sales representatives for SurgeX will be in Honolulu on business from Oct 26 to Oct 28. They can clear up the confusion that exists about any technological questions and the relationship between the 3 companies as well as a Canadian company, Torus Power. You can find his name and phone number on the surgeX.com web site.

Not to be rude or something, but are you working for them.

I find it very hard to decide really. How can they offer 3 wire protection now. It's been a while since I started this thread. Never did figure out what I wanted:)

I will throw my 2 sense in here. Be careful when looking for on-line or zero delay type UPS's. Because the internal inverter is always working , the unit may have cooling fans that run all the time. If you plan to install the UPS in your viewing area, the noise may be too much to bear.

I have even found a few line-interactive UPS's with continuously running fans. They were rated for 20 amps, which is why we used them, but the fans caught us by surprise.