Here are a few photos of the roughed in plumbing that were set when the house was built. I'm trying to figure out the reasoning behind each pipe. Obviously the 4" is for the toilet, but why is it so close to the 1.5"?
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/HT/010109005.jpg
Is this "setup" for a toilet/sink bathroom? In other words if I want to add a shower, am I going to be digging up some concrete? I can't put a shower over the top of the one closest to the wall can I?

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/HT/102608005.jpg

I would really like to have the toilet facing the wall that is shown, the area just to the right of the first photo will be a hallway so I don't want to encroach on that space if possible.

The pipe closest to the 4" is most likely a vent for the drain lines. It almost looks as if the intent was to locate it in a area where a wall might go.

Makes sense to me. The larger pipe center should be 12 inches from the finished face of a wall for a toilet flange. The pipe closest to it is intended to be in the wall and you can hook your vanity sink drain to it going laterally in the wall. The last pipe is for a tub. which almost always requires busting out the concrete and fine tuning the drain and trap to accommodate your tub/shower of choice.

Now what I don't see is provision for the venting. take a picture of the ceiling, let's see if they roughed anything in. If they put in some PVC that goes up to the attic, that is to be used for the vent. You will need to extend through the roof.

This is about the best I can get for now at work, I could take more pictures later.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/HT/010109004.jpg
Pipe that angles on the left I'm assuming is the vent, ties into the existing venting of the upper floors. Pipe to the right has a check valve and ties into the main 4" drain that heads to the sewer.

To give you some rough dimensions
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/HT/dimensions.jpg

I kind of get what you are saying Big, but I want to avoid that direction, I would be height limited due to the ductwork as well as there being a hallway/stairwell near there.

Plus I think adding all three on the same wet wall would be cramped [tub-sink-toilet-]

Its funny, I go down in my basement and try to mentally figure out how the rough in is supposed to be working every so often. I should post mine. I forgot about the vent, I am going to have to go look at it again tonight. I am no plumber.

I am a bit envious that your builder appears to have put the furnace, HW heater, sump, electrical panel, (water softner?) all in one general place - instead of just littering them throughout the basement based on where the utility entered the structure.

Jack hammer time.

I kind of get what you are saying Big, but I want to avoid that direction, I would be height limited due to the ductwork as well as there being a hallway/stairwell near there.

Plus I think adding all three on the same wet wall would be cramped [tub-sink-toilet-]

My bathroom has all 3 on the same wet wall. Per code about the closest you can cram all 3(tub, toilet, vanity) is 84" (7ft). Mine is 8' 2", its not huge, but not too cramped. My old master was close(right at) that 7' limit.

BTW the math is as follows:

30" for the tub (standard size) + 24" for a small vanity + 30" for the toilet (Plumbing code calls for 15" either way from the center of the flange.

As for height, could you move the duct or soffit it?

One pipe is confusing, the one off the elbow that heads down at the rear of the sump hatch? where does it go?

One pipe is confusing, the one off the elbow that heads down at the rear of the sump hatch? where does it go?

Looks like maybe a common dry vent. I'll bet that pipe under the slab and vents the stubbed bath...

Offhand where's the main soil stack for the house? does it come out of the wall or floor?

It goes right down into the concrete. I'm guessing it's a vent for the floor drain. You can't tell from the pictures but it's just off to the side. Condensate line runs in there as well as the drain from the water softener.

A different view
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/HT/102608006.jpg

Thats likely the vent for that drain. Those stubs have to be vented somewhere or they wouldnt have passed inspection. Regardless if they are not where you need/want them... a jackhammer is the only solution. Are there any neighbors with this model/layout with a finished bath you can look at for hints? I did that with my bath. They builder had 3 other with finished basements that I used as examples for how mine needed to be laid out.

I checked with the neighbors, of the two similar layouts, only one had finished the basement, however only with a toilet and vanity, no shower. That would make life easiest I suppose, but I think if its cost feasible, getting a shower in there is the way to go.

Well you could use corner unit. Rough plumbing isnt hard, though cutting up the floor is dusty and labor intensive. Would a layout like this work?

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_t_JgCIyny4E/SWY7N4AfJgI/AAAAAAAAEOk/17avhcs9es4/s800/dimensions.jpg

Rough plumbing is a no brainer for me, I just wanted to avoid getting into the slab if at all possible.
I'm a bit confused by your drawing, are you saying use a corner unit sink? I'd have to do some measuring but that might be close to hitting the toilet, or at the very least only leaving like 1' clearance between the two.

Thats likely the vent for that drain. Those stubs have to be vented somewhere or they wouldnt have passed inspection. Regardless if they are not where you need/want them... a jackhammer is the only solution. Are there any neighbors with this model/layout with a finished bath you can look at for hints? I did that with my bath. They builder had 3 other with finished basements that I used as examples for how mine needed to be laid out.

Eric:

The stubs for the do not have to be vented to pass inspection. Venting comes during the installation process. I confirmed this with my inspector when I was just starting out. I guess it may vary by state and city/county, but that's what my inspector told me.

To the OP...breaking the floor is not as hard as you would think. Rental of the 60lb electric jackhammer was about $55 for a day, and I was able to move the rough in for the shower over about 2 feet. It was not a big deal...it is dusty but I think it was harder to finish the drywall!


CJ

Really... CJ, I had to have my vents in for R/I hmm go figure. OP, I meant a corner shower... you need 15 " from center of toilet R/I to wall, vanity etc.

Eric looks like the door hits the toilet in your sketch? Could use a pocket door.

Really... CJ, I had to have my vents in for R/I hmm go figure. OP, I meant a corner shower... you need 15 " from center of toilet R/I to wall, vanity etc.

Sorry...I didn't mean for rough in inspection...I mean that my inspector told me that when the builder finished the house with the stubbies like the OP shows, no venting was required. I did have to provide for venting before I was able to pass my rough in inspection when I was finishing the basement.

CJ

CJ, now that makes sense... I need more sleep :)

Really bad sketch, but it might :) Pocket door would work beautifully...

If I recall correctly, the toilet needs to sit 10" or 12" away from the wall. That's based on the offsets required by the toilets themselves (they come in 10" or 12" offsets). There also needs to be a "no fly zone" to the sides and front of the toilet. This needs to be 15" from the bowl centerline on the side, and 21" in front (2006 IRC, 2705.1). This area needs to be free and clear with nothing installed in it.

CJ

I checked with the neighbors, of the two similar layouts, only one had finished the basement, however only with a toilet and vanity, no shower. That would make life easiest I suppose, but I think if its cost feasible, getting a shower in there is the way to go.

I think installing a shower is good idea also, especially if you are planning for a bedroom in your basement as well. I didn't put a shower in my finished basement and I regret it now.

If I recall correctly, the toilet needs to sit 10" or 12" away from the wall. That's based on the offsets required by the toilets themselves (they come in 10" or 12" offsets). There also needs to be a "no fly zone" to the sides and front of the toilet. This needs to be 15" from the bowl centerline on the side, and 21" in front (2006 IRC, 2705.1). This area needs to be free and clear with nothing installed in it.

CJ

Yep thats what I remember as well. I highly recommend the CodeCheck series that you can get at HD as a guide to these requirements. Couldnt have gotten thru my inspections w/o them!

Thanks for all the replies guys, my wife is starting to get annoyed with me bouncing ideas off of her. I just realized I have access to visio, so I am going to get some detailed measurements and go to town with that. It looks more and more like busting up the concrete would be the most realistic way for me to go. However, I'm new to basement plumbing, is there a requirement for a trap plus venting for the shower? Or could I just cut that pipe to size and install the shower? Seems to me without a trap, there would be some "gases" coming back up. Assuming that was a vent line to begin with, I would either have to raise the level of the shower up or dig out the drain and install a trap. Correct?

I had already planned on the pocket door as well, I figure that is the best space saver I can have.

I'll post some of my renderings tomorrow.

yep gotta have a trap for the shower. Should be one under the slab though, at least I had one...

yep gotta have a trap for the shower. Should be one under the slab though, at least I had one...

Problem is I'm not sure that pipe was designated as a drain for a shower, possibly only a tie in for a sink/vent. I'll take the plugs off and take a peak at the routing to see if I can gauge what it does.

You can stick a hose in the pipe in question and run some water. After a bit shine a light down and if you see water there is probably a trap.

A friend of mine was in this same situation recently. He had a stubbie but didn't know if there was a trap below the concrete. He pit a plumbing snake down the pipe and felt a bend or two. he then filled the pipe with water and noticed that some stayed in the bottom. He's really sure he has a trap below.

CJ

Thanks for all the replies guys, my wife is starting to get annoyed with me bouncing ideas off of her. I just realized I have access to visio, so I am going to get some detailed measurements and go to town with that. It looks more and more like busting up the concrete would be the most realistic way for me to go. However, I'm new to basement plumbing, is there a requirement for a trap plus venting for the shower?
I'll post some of my renderings tomorrow.

There is a requirement for venting, but in most locations that can be done with a studdor valve (also called an air admittance valve). You will need to check with your jurisdiction to see if it's allowed in your area. If it is, then you won't have any issues that are significant. Check out my thread for a few examples of AAV and busing up the floor. Cathan's thread has it documented pretty well too.

Basement plumbing isn't too hard. It's hard to visualize what's under your concrete, but it's pretty basic.

Post the plans and we'll take a look.

CJ

CJ

regarding the Studor valve...

Inspector in my county says it needs fresh air, so cannot be buried in a wall. I'm using one for my wet bar sink drain. Inspector also indicated that you don't have to actually install it until AFTER drywall. Wish I had known because now I'll need to remove mine to drywall, and then re-install.

Good luck,
Tom

I had an air admittance valve but my inspector preferred a "true" vent and since I was < 10 feet from the vent, in it went.

regarding the Studor valve...
Inspector also indicated that you don't have to actually install it until AFTER drywall. Wish I had known because now I'll need to remove mine to drywall, and then re-install.


Tom...same story here. I installed them (1 for the bath and 1 for the bar), and had them in place for the rough in inspection. Inspector informed me that I didn't need them in place until final...so I cut the drain down to a stubbie on the bar sink and completed the drywall.

They can be buried in the wall, but you need to able to access them. Typically, this is done with a louvered metal grate that is removable. They must have access to free airflow (2006 IRC, 3114.5). In addition, the branch must be at least 4 in above the drain. Stack type must be a minimum of 6 inches above insulation in an attic, and 6 inches above the fixture floor (all 3 requirements from 2006 IRC 3114.4). Minimum size for a wet vent is 1 1/2" (2006 IRC 3108.3).

I also leared from the inspector that I couldn't tap into the sump vent to vent the fixtures. My two studdor valves have been just the ticket.

CJ

Some updates...

It appears that there is a trap in the pipe closest to the wall. So if I put a shower there I just need to dig out around the pipe and backfill with some gravel correct?

The vent that is next to the toilet drain is the problem. Opinions on cutting that down flush with the floor and then covering it over? Or is it going to be needed for the toilet to work correctly. I think I have figured out a layout, but that vent for the toilet is going to be the problem. Here's a quick Visio, I moved the door to the open wall, really wanted it on the back wall where the hallway is, but it's something I'm willing to live with.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/bath.jpg

Some updates...

It appears that there is a trap in the pipe closest to the wall. So if I put a shower there I just need to dig out around the pipe and backfill with some gravel correct?

The vent that is next to the toilet drain is the problem. Opinions on cutting that down flush with the floor and then covering it over? Or is it going to be needed for the toilet to work correctly. I think I have figured out a layout, but that vent for the toilet is going to be the problem. Here's a quick Visio, I moved the door to the open wall, really wanted it on the back wall where the hallway is, but it's something I'm willing to live with.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/bath.jpg


You'll need that vent, it allow air into the drain line. Offhand, why the ejection pump? If your main stack goes into the ground you should be above the stack exit from the dwelling...

It was there when the house was built and actually the main goes out on the other side of the basement about two feet up the slab.

you need to have the vent, and if that is all you need to move, then you are talking at most a 2 hour start to finish job yourself (including breaking slab with electric hammer, rework vent to wall, gravel and concrete).

Quick update. Got the OK to rent the jackhammer...this is going to be fun...I'll take progress pics and post them. Any helpful hints from those that have used a jackhammer for this?

Ear protection

I used a jackhammer for 2 hours last year.

I paid for it the next 2 days.

This is what I learned:
1. Take motrin before and after. You'll need it.
2. Wear the best hearing protection and eye protection you have...especially the ear protections.
3. Wear super heavy gloves, heavy clothes, and heavy boots/shoes.

The hardest part about jackhammering is controlling it. The weight of the jackhammer provides all the strength you need to bust concrete but it takes a LOT to keep it in place.

Good luck!

if that is all you need to move, then you are talking at most a 2 hour start to finish job yourself

I'd double that just from general estimating experience throughout my build. EVERYTHING takes twice as long as think it will.

Quick update. Got the OK to rent the jackhammer...this is going to be fun...I'll take progress pics and post them. Any helpful hints from those that have used a jackhammer for this?

Gloves and hearing protection. Good shoes help too.

I didn't have any issues with soreness or the like, and had a lot of fun!

CJ

Few comments to add:
- Plumber jackhammered my bathroom through 6inches of concrete. He said it is unusual to have such thickness in a basement floor. Typically, it is 4 inches. I relocated my stubs to the mainline in the foundation to include shower, lavatory, toilet, and urinal (yes, a urinal!).

- There may be rebar within the concrete - you would need some good, solid cutters to get through this stuff.

- Bring in the wheelbarrow to help out

- Finally, if you have a termite bond (common here in Georgia - I see that you're in IL), they'll need to treat the exposed area after the concrete and dirt are removed. Check on this.


I think soreness will depend on how powerful the jackhammer is - the electric jackhammers are less powerful than the gas ones.

Referring to post #1, in the second photo, this is what I think:

1. The toilet would face the black stepstool. The 2" pipe is 12" from the 3" waste, so this must be in the wall behind the toilet. As somebody else noted, 15" is required to each side of the toilet, so this pipe cannot have been located to be concealed in a wall to the side of the toilet.
2. Most likely that 2" vent would be teed off to the left, then elbowed out for the lavatory. The lav and the toilet would face the same direction. The vent would then continue up and be tied into the existing vent for the sewage ejector. With such easy access, I would tie into the existing vent system rather than shortcutting with an AAV.
3. The remaining 2" pipe would make the most sense to me as a tub drain. The head of the tub would be above the pipe, the foot would face up towards the top of the photo. The tub would be placed against a wall that is perpendicular to the wall that the toilet and lav are on.

A tub drain is about 8" from the wall that the toilet vent is in, and about 14" from the wall that is perpendicular to the first. Of course, with a trap there is a lot of wiggle room. SO instead of the proposed wall being 20" away, as you depicted in post #4 (2nd photo), it would probably be a little bit closer, although with the trap you may be able to make it.

Lastly, I don't think the original plumber did this out of the kindness of his heart. He had to have a set of plans. Did the builder leave you any plans? You could also check the building department, they should have them on record.

Good luck!

Tim

As for cutting rebar, I put a metal cutting blade in my reciprocal saw and it got the job done. Think I might have broken a blade or two so plan extras.

Thanks guys, I am a NVH engineer, so I have some of the best ear protection money can buy, no worries there. I plan on roughing it all out on top of the concrete this weekend (i.e. laying the pieces out how I want to route things) and then tracing that to the floor, so I only dig up what is necessary.

Thanks for the thoughts Tim, that would be the ideal situation, unfortunately I have a hallway planned in that area just past the black step stool. I'll relook into it, but I would have to rework that entire area (shop,bathroom, closet, bar area....)

A few questions-
- Did you guys cover up the new pipes with gravel and then concrete over?
- How big of an area should I leave "open" around the tub/shower train?

Well, you gotta do what you gotta do.

I designed my entire basement and HT before I put a shovel in the ground. When it came time to finish the bathroom I moved stuff too. :)

You can cover the pipes with gravel or sand, but do cover them.

Leave at LEAST a 18" x 18" box around the pipe for the tub/shower. This needs to be sealed (can't have exposed dirt in there) so formulate a plan for that too.

In the end You will probably end up taking most of the floor out. You'll need to re-vent the toilet, and just getting that done will eat up a lot of square footage.

I tried a minimal excavation first. Then after taking the skin off my hands I took out a lot more and wished I did that in the first place.

Tim

Depending on how the piping is laid out under the slab, you may have to cap that old toilet vent and install a new one. You can't just cover over it, you'd have to glue a cap on, then cover it.

The vent pipe cannot travel on less than a 45d angle until you're 6" above the flood rim of the toilet-- then you can travel horizontally.

The vent also has to be joined to the waste line at or above the mid-line of the waste line (ie you can't travel horizontally under the slab)

Another thing that is strange is that a 2" vent is not large enough to vent both a toilet and a shower.

Is this going to be inspected?

Tim

Concrete was poured over my PVC pipes. Then it was carefully smoothed to match level of adjacent, existing concrete. It had fair amount of gravel mixed into the concrete mix.

Concrete shouldn't be in direct contact with piping unless the piping is sleeved to prevent abrasion et al

Not a huge deal, see it a lot.

Tim

Thanks for the advice Tim. This won't be inspected, I'll take my chances but plan on staying in the house for quite some time. The last house I owned I put a bathroom and bar in the basement without permits and sold it with no questions asked. I designed the basement for areas, and lighting but I never got into the exact specifics of the bathroom. Kind of why I am stopping framing now to take care of this.

As for the sleeving, is it sold at the big boxes? SHould I have those on the vertical pipes I relocate?
18"x18" seems HUGE for the opening for the tub drain. A friend I just helped with his basement had maybe an 8" by 8" square filled with gravel around the pipe, not sure if there was any type of seal underneath that however, but it was roughed in when the house was built.

I was thinking of moving the vent for the toliet to the area where the carpet line is in the picture you drew on. Basically rotating the toilet 90* to the left.

Yeah it all really depends on how your municipality works. We find unpermitted work all the time when houses change hands, partly because our certificates of occupancy specifically list finished basements. In the end it's not a big deal to correct, but usually there is a timetable for closings or refinances that gets screwed up.

I really wouldn't worry about the sleeving up through the slab. It's done all the time and not a big deal. It's a little more of a problem with pipes horizontally in concrete; better to cover them with sand if you can.

18x18 is only 9" on either side of the pipe. Not sure of the exact dimension of a trap, but even doubled over on itself it has to be about 6". The problem I ran into was trying to finish the connections after the tub was set. You have to reach in from the backside of the wall and get your hands in there. 8x8 is smaller than a sheet of paper, which i suppose is feasible if you have the pipe in the right place.

My personal preference is to make it as big as possible, it's all dead space under there anyway. I think a normal tub is about 24" wide, with the feet the tub rests on being inset from the skirt a few inches.

With a shower pan I suppose you could be more precise and have a smaller hole, especially since the pan requires more support than the tub. The final connection is also made from the top, rather than having to get some fat hands in the hole underneath.

The hole is supposed to be sealed, ie with concrete. I just mixed some by hand and slapped it in there. I've seen it many times where it's just sand or gravel..

Tim

Is it safe or advisable to have the trap underneath the concrete?

As long as it's a glue type trap it can be under the concrete. If it has slip joints, the trap must be accessible and therefore can't be concealed beneath the concrete.

If you were installing a shower receptor then I could see concealing the trap, as you can set it where you need it and then install the pan.

I don't think it's possible to conceal a trap for a tub because (I think) the slip connection between the tailpiece and the trap is actually below the top of the floor. Not to mention I don't think you could get it lined up properly.

Tim

Thanks Tim, in the interest of space, I am going with a shower, and will glue a trap underneath. Looks like right now I will be moving two of the three pipes. The one near the wall will move about three feet over and the toilet drain will move about 1 foot over. I'm going to tape the floor off tonight and see if I like the relation of future walls to the future bar area and make sure it is not to cramped.

Sounds like fun :)

Basically you need a vent somewhere between the toilet flange and the wye where the tub connects. You'll have to insert a 3x2 tee (or wye, but tees are usually much easier) into the existing line. The 2" takeoff will point anywhere from 45 degrees above horizontal to straight up. You'll need to route that into a wall until you are 6" above the rim of the toilet, then you can go horizontal, if necessary.

Good luck!
Tim

Well this has been postponed for sometime, but today is the day, jackhammer is in the garage, camera is charged for pictures of the destruction, and the wife and baby are on their way out of the house. I'll post some pictures later, if I can move my arms!

Good luck!!

"..and the wife and baby are on their way out of the house.

Awwwww shucks. With them gone, who will be availble to feel the vibrations up through the house and who will worry that you're breaking something important? (My wife experienced both during my jackhammer party).

Good luck with the demo.

CJ

Carpe Jack hammer!!! Look forward to seeing the result

Surprisingly the jackhammer was the easiest part, all things considered. Total time with the jackhammer was about 2 hours...the rest...well about 6 hours. It's done now and the concrete is drying, I'll post some pictures once everything is dry. Some highlights:
- The jackhammer was very easy to use, very little dust; mostly just when first busting through the surface
- I learned some valuable lessons for plumbing underneath concrete, start on one end and work your way to the other end ( I tried to correct a mistake in the middle of the piping run and caused a major headache for myself)
- All in all it took 180 lbs of concrete to re-fill the holes, I thought it was over kill when I bought the bags, but it went fast
- The worst parts were hauling things back upstairs. In hindsight I should have hauled the jackhammer up first before the 5 gallon buckets of rocks and busted concrete
- The main vent had a very puzzling piece to it, it went down to a T and one end tied into the main 3" drain, the other end of the T had duct tape over it with some small holes poked in it

Pictures to soon follow!
Here are some pics!
Before
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/HT/032709001.jpg
Half way through jack-hammering
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/HT/032709004.jpg
Duct tape over open end of pipe!
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/HT/032709007.jpg


More finished pictures later....

hey jester, where in the NW burbs are you? i am in huntley... check out my thread to see the fun i had with concrete basement cutting.

looks like you have everything under control though.

Hey Brandon, I'm out in LITH, looks like your basement was a heck of a lot more invasive than mine was! Nice job by the way. I was thinking of putting some self leveler over the concrete patches as well. It is pretty close to being even maybe a few spots might be off, but I didn't float the top coat so it is pretty rough. It's going to be covered by tile. I'll hold off on that for now, time to get back to framing. I'm just glad it is done!

The main vent had a very puzzling piece to it, it went down to a T and one end tied into the main 3" drain, the other end of the T had duct tape over it with some small holes poked in it



Where does your main 3 inch drain empty, City sewer or Septic? It certainly does sound odd. Good thing you found it. I assume you fixed it.

The 3 inch goes into an ejector pit, which kicks it up to the main 4" house drain and goes out to city sewer. I talked to a plumber at the Home Depot who just happen to be doing the same type of work I was doing and asked him about it, he was more puzzled than I was I guess, but said something like that shouldn't have made it through inspection, chances are the main rough work was never inspected before laying the concrete foundation, only inspected afterwards. Either way, he said it was not good. I saved the piece, maybe I'll make it sort of a trophy piece in the shop.

It's all fixed and should be properly routed with the appropriate rake back to the pit. Definitely a good learning experience, but I am glad I did it myself. All in all, rental and materials, it cost me under $100. Can't imagine what a plumber would charge for it, plus his time.

Finished:
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/HT/033109001.jpg
The mysterious duct tape end....with custom poked holes!
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/HT/033109005.jpg

I was quoted around 2k for the rough-in.

Can someone tell me if the ejector pump itself is supposed to be "elevated?" I haven't reset the float height yet on it, but the pump doesn't kick on until the water is almost midlevel with the 3" inlet. So in essence water goes "back-in" to the pipe. If it is supposed to be elevated, is there a minimum? It seemed kind of high when I peaked in there, so I know it is sitting on something. I'll get to it more this weekend, just was curious, obviously I need to alter something.

Jester,

The pump doesn't need to be elevated off the bottom, however the instruction i had "recommended" it. i put a couple of bricks on the bottom of the tank and set the pump on top of it.

as far and "water" backflowing up the toilet pipe, the only problem that could possibly happen is when you try and flush the toilet and the water level is higher, leading to a submerged discharge. You can try it with clean water to see if it has a negative effect on the drain. how far from the top of the tank is the invert elevation (bottom) of the 3" pipe? my high water level slightly covers the invert, and i haven't had any problems.


the high water level and low water level is somewhat determined by the flow in and flow out of the basin, but that is getting to overkill for the application (i could tell you how to calculate it, or even swing by and show you) but i didnt bother to do this with mine. actually if i recall i left my float where it was set at when i got it and it has always worked just fine. i had to replacement in an emergency situation (old one died) and never had a problem with it, so i just kind of set it and forget.

so, in short, you might be thinking about it too much. set the pump up with the cover off. have as much water running to the basin as possible and watch it work. flush the toilet. see if you have any problems, or backflow or slow down in the flushing. that is the easiest way. you will also want to do this for a few cycles to make sure everything works and doesn't leak. i ran my shower, wash basin, washer, toilet and a hose to act like the other sink i didn't have hooked up. let this all run with the pump going for an hour or so. no leaks, pump kept up, figured it was good enough for government work.

I wouldn't think that having water in the pipe would be a good thing. After a flush the paper will be slowed down, leading to a potential problem (maybe this is what bethomas means by "submerged discharge").

My pump kicks on before the water level hits the 3". My pump discharges way faster than any amount of water coming into the basin, so no worries there.

Tim

Tim, i agree, but it isn't very often that the basin would finish draining the toilet right at the high water level.

and i have a washer, shower and two sinks that lead to my sump and my pump has no problems keeping up with it at all either.

R1Jester in the chicago area? Ride an R1? Sorry for the off topic!

Thanks Tim and bethomas, I'll run a bunch of water into the pit and try to do some adjusting. I would think ideally I would want it to kick in when the water gets to just below the 3" inlet, correct? The pump is good and I'm sure would have no problem keeping up with the rush of water when at that level, just want to set it and forget it.

Vcook- Yep, it's a '99. One of the first in the area to have one. Although slightly modified now...:D
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/jesterr1/done009.jpg

I had an '01 R1, good bike. Are you on chicagolandsportbikes.com?

Vcook- Sent you a PM