I was worried the bad weather would delay the driver but it made it here safe and sound.
I will not be able to comment on performance until later tonight but I did hook everything up and confirmed she is working. More to come!

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7616.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7619.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7618.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7620.JPG

Beaten to the punch.:)

Looks like a Ducati sidecar. Look forward to your comments.

Interesting. And that confirms it is not the C3X case. Similar, but not the same...

Interesting. And that confirms it is not the C3X case. Similar, but not the same...

Yes new design, sharp looking machine. Going by memory its quieter then the 1080 C3X and quieter then the Marantz 11S2 sitting next to it.
The Host has an HD-SDI:)

The Host has an HD-SDI:)

That is the gateway to some seriously interesting stuff.:)

Loved that on my HT5k

What kind of interesting stuff?

What kind of interesting stuff?

The uncompressed kind.

The interface is used in the broadcast industry and handles uncompressed broadcast grade video. What you see on HDTV, which can be outstanding, isn't even close to the uncompressed files.

The standard can handle around 30 times the data rate of BD, and upto 60 in dual-link mode.

Ok it's been over an hour. How much time do you need Alan :D. Can't wait to hear your impressions. Have fun!

Intriguing. Looks like Sim may be thinking nextgen with HD-SDI when Bluray has gone the way of the Betamax and everyone is downloading UNCOMPRESSED day and date flicks to their nice little movieservers. Hmmmmm.....

Intriguing. Looks like Sim may be thinking nextgen with HD-SDI when Bluray has gone the way of the Betamax and everyone is downloading UNCOMPRESSED day and date flicks to their nice little movieservers. Hmmmmm.....

Very perceptive.

The HT5k had it 2 years ago. The difference is staggering.

In my last place I was fortunate enough to be asked, and able, to host a number of screenings that made use of this interface. Incredible.

Hard to tell from the photo, but does it have 2 SDI BNC's? Need those for real HD SDI bandwidth. Yes, I LOVE my SDI'd SD-DVD player. Wouldn't consider using anything else for SD-DVD.

Hard to tell from the photo, but does it have 2 SDI BNC's? Need those for real HD SDI bandwidth. Yes, I LOVE my SDI'd SD-DVD player. Wouldn't consider using anything else for SD-DVD.

It has 1 HD-SDI BNC. You do need 2 for dual-link, but 1 connector can still deliver nearly 30 times the data rate of Blu-Ray.

Seeing uncompressed, pre broadcast, 1080 material was a revelation to me. This needs to be the next stage for sources.

Or a single 3 gigabit HD-SDI port. 4.5 Gig chips seem to not have made it to market, yet. As Belden pointed out its 3 gig certified coax was later also certified for 4.5 gig.

1080P does require either dual channel or 3 gig., 4.5 gig at higher sample and framerates.

Or a single 3 gigabit HD-SDI port.

Of course you are correct. Im not sure if these newer units have 3Gb ports.

Or a single 3 gigabit HD-SDI port. 4.5 Gig chips seem to not have made it to market, yet. As Belden pointed out its 3 gig certified coax was later also certified for 4.5 gig.

1080P does require either dual channel or 3 gig., 4.5 gig at higher sample and framerates.

I don't believe 1080P24 requires dual channel

Why all the hype over HDSDI? Many (not all) HDMI implementations are exactly the same. Meaning you can send the same uncompressed signal over HDMI. Go look in the Processors fourm for indepth discussion on this.

The cool trick is getting access to uncompressed HD. Even a DCI master is still compressed. Plus even broadcast grade HD VTRs are still compressed, the highest bit rate available being 880mbs.

I don't believe 1080P24 requires dual channel

Correct, it's actually less bandwidth then 1080i/60 but is padded out the same to keep the interface standardized.

There is no 4.5gbs SDI standard. 3G is covered under SMPTE 424 and 425.

Why all the hype over HDSDI? Many (not all) HDMI implementations are exactly the same. Meaning you can send the same uncompressed signal over HDMI. Go look in the Processors fourm for indepth discussion on this.

The cool trick is getting access to uncompressed HD. Even a DCI master is still compressed. Plus even broadcast grade HD VTRs are still compressed, the highest bit rate available being 880mbs.


Glimmie, I dont see any hype at all. Just passage of some basic information.

I think most people know that you can do the same with HDMI, its just a good option to have if you can use it. If you have access to the content, and connectivity, its a sweet deal.

Correct, it's actually less bandwidth then 1080i/60 but is padded out the same to keep the interface standardized

I thought 1080p required 3G or dual channel.

If its not 3Gb, then its limited to 1080i as per SMPTE 292.

Of course its VERY possible Im missing something here. If I am, please straighten me out.

CM, it is all about bandwidth, 1080P24 requires less than 1080i60..

No reason to run Bluray at anything other than 1080P24 for 1080P24 encoded movies, and 1080i60 for video and 1080i60 encoded discs, and then let external processor or internal projector processor(if quality processor) convert to 1080p60. Actually the best way would be to run Native from disc

CM, it is all about bandwidth, 1080P24 requires less than 1080i60..

L, I understand the bandwidth comparison. I thought there was maybe a format issue, or some other BS, that I hadn't grasped.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Thats what I love about this particular part of AVS, there seems no end of information to tap into.

1080P/60 requires 3gbs uncompressed. However 1080P/24 fits into SMPTE292 as it is actually less bandwidth.This format has been around since 1999 and is the basis of most scripted drama production today.

1080P/24 can be translated to any world TV standard with historically acceptable artifacts, like NTSC 3/2 pulldown and PAL 4% speedup just as film has always done. It was developed primarily do to ABC adopting 720P while NBC and CBS went 1080i. ABC mandated they would not accept conversions from 1080i due to the motion artifacts. But as most drama shows are film origionated, conversion from 24P was OK. Naturally when a film is transferred to HD these days it is done frame for frame to 24P video hence the reason BluRay is mostly 24P. And with this standard a whole world of 24P video cameras were born and used today in place of film on some projects.

P.S. It's really 23.97P in the TV world because NTSC is really 59.94 and not true 60. But true 24P is also used when going back to film such as in digital cinema. And the TV flavor of 24P (that is 23.98) is really 23.98sF as it was made compatable with interlaced equipment.

But for all practictical purposes it is true 24P.

Alan, what are you selling to make room for this? I smell a deal :D

Alan, what are you selling to make room for this? I smell a deal :D

The Sim2 just kicked my Marantz 11S2 to the curb:)


I promise a follow up as soon as I can. I want to take some measurements to solidify what I am seeing but I think Sim2 are on to something.

A few quick impressions, you guys are in for a surprise.

Watching a scope movie with dynamic black on ( not using a anamorphic lens ) the black bars completely disappear. I even threw this on the high power thinking the bars would show up but still a no show. Turning off DB raises black and they are back. I would have never expected this level of black from any 3 chip DLP. We are not talking crushed black, shadow detail remains. Lcos now has some serious competition.
Toggling dynamic black on/off during a movie the difference seamed subtle but somehow its impacting mostly lower IREs.
The iris is positioned after the lamp before the optical light path so clamping down the iris always maintains full ANSi contrast. Open the iris all the way keeping dynamic black on, the bars remain gone. Dynamic black and lamp modulation seam to be working at the same time enhancing one another. For an example during a star field the combination of DB with lamp modulation ( the lamp increases ) expand dynamic contrast. Any little object of light ( if at 100 IRE ) remain at 100 IRE against black and jumps off the screen where without the modulation using just an iris the upper IREs would be dimmed in parallel along with the blacks. I am very impressed so far. More tomorrow night.

The Sim2 just kicked my Marantz 11S2 to the curb

There's your deal Chris !

The scene in 300 when the boy returns home to become King Leonitus (he is standing in the dark with snow falling all around) is a nice scene of white objects on a black background. Actually the scene with the wolf is also very good.

Heck who needs CES.. just go to Alans house.

Alan, so you are not going to just test it for a while and sell it?

I was going to call first dibs.:D

The iris is positioned after the lamp before the optical light path so clamping down the iris always maintains full ANSi contrast. Open the iris all the way keeping dynamic black on, the bars remain gone. Dynamic black and lamp modulation seam to be working at the same time enhancing one another. For an example during a star field the combination of DB with lamp modulation ( the lamp increases ) expand dynamic contrast. Any little object of light ( if at 100 IRE ) remain at 100 IRE against black and jumps off the screen where without the modulation using just an iris the upper IREs would be dimmed in parallel along with the blacks. I am very impressed so far.

Thats exactly what I was hoping to hear. That combination of techniques sounds killer.

Looking forward to some detail.

I wonder how long before they put that in the HT5000............especially with new filters:)

1080P/60 requires 3gbs uncompressed. However 1080P/24 fits into SMPTE292 as it is actually less bandwidth.

Thats where I was getting confused. I read a synopsis of 292 and it appeared to say 1080i. Reading it again, after your post, its actually very clear that 1080P/24 fits.

Thanks for the clarification.

Thanks Alan. On what size screen are you running the Lumis ?


Art

Hi Alan,

Whats your impression on the lumis as it compares to the standard 1080p C3X?

Alan

Have you had the chance to take any measurements? What kind of lumens? on/off ? ANSI?
:)

Alan, so you are not going to just test it for a while and sell it?

I was going to call first dibs.:D

I think I am keeping this one for a while:)

Thanks Alan. On what size screen are you running the Lumis ?


Art

8 feet wide on a negative gray screen. Its bright. This weekend Ill get some measurements. Curious how the light output compares to the HT5000.

Hi Alan,

Whats your impression on the lumis as it compares to the standard 1080p C3X?

It has been a while so its tough to be accurate by memory but I am sure the Lumis has it beat.
A little test to judge black level for those with the 1080 C3X...display a letterbox movie without an anamorphic lens or if using a lens leave it in place and scale a 16x9 image in the center of your screen. Kill all lights, do you see the black bars top/bottom or pillar bars. The Lumis has none.

Alan

Have you had the chance to take any measurements? What kind of lumens? on/off ? ANSI?
:)

Unfortunately I will not have any time until this weekend. Time to drag out the ole laptop and camera:)

seams this unit is a winner!

this unit have first a adaptive lamp that can switch form lower to higher light
out in ms.driven frame by frame very very fast!

than this unit have a adaptive iris not a round one more like a triangle
looking direct after the lamp.
this iris open and close after check every frame of the signal how much
brightness is inside and open and close very fast.

than this unit have a manual fix iris that have i guess 4 or 5 positions you can select that also change a bit the cr. but this one is more to adjust
the level of light out when you have a small screen.

that is all confirme by sim2.

alan i will be not surprised if you will measure arround 2000 lumens
max. light out at d65 during this weekend.

i will get a demo in my room in about one week.

btw: i still get no demo of the christie hd 10km and i wait till
september 2008:mad:
sad is that i cant use this sim2 lumis host pr. at my 7m screen as it not have enough light out but
for my holiday hause it sould be fine:)

alan i will be not surprised if you will measure arround 2000 lumens
max. light out at d65 during this weekend.

Wolfgang, where are you pulling this number from? I thought maybe around 1400. If it does push out 2000, that could handle a 14ft screen.

I hope you are right, that would be serious power in such a tiny package.

I hope you are right, that would be serious power in such a tiny package.


Yes it would since the HT 5000 hits about 1800 lumens.

Art

cm

they modify everything from the lamp to the optic and
this unit hava a adaptive iris so they can open it more
up than the fix iris in the 5000.

7-8 lumen/watt uhp is also very normaly with such spec. lamps
and the can dim and bost it.

also the sim2 lumis host "pdf brochure" say "till to 3000 lumen" but thats may a bit to much and more a marketing number.

same they claim till to 35000:1 cr.
i am sure this will not be the case but may close to 20000:1 in adaptiv iris function.

but lets see when alan not see any bars from a 2.35 format bd :)................

I just want to know how the contrast compares to the RS20 (which I was very impressed by).

looks like massive advance done by SIM2
MSRP ?
lumens and ansi contrast nrs would be great
i have a C3X 2K here for a week, it's really something else than the popular lcos. the pop is amazing and it can without problem be bright on my 171" scope 1.0 mp screen.
(iris open, lamp 250w)

I just want to know how the contrast compares to the RS20 (which I was very impressed by).

people have to realize, understand, DLP 3DLP give way more "pop", 3D feeling
than lcos.
the on off craziness is at the expense of a less "sexy" nr but way more important: ansi contrast.
on off is paramount if you see black bars in a non scope/lens configuration or fade to black scenes.
but most of the time you NEED big ansi contrast.

the colorimetry richness and accuracy of the 3DLP technology is also amazing

Funny, I thought the RS20 gave way more pop then my Sim. Colors and depth of field were a delight. The detail that the contrast brought out in color gradients etc was very impressive. Yes, it didn't have high ANSI and that was the only fault my eyes could see (in the three hours I spent with it).

Now, of course, I want both high ansi and high on/off, so I'm hoping the new Sim2 delivers on that.

some movies etc or even hd concert of course are so greatly filmed and encoded that even on a low ansi, high on off machine it looks great.
but the brilliance, the shininess (spelling?) of DLP-3DLP (the good ones like SIM2) is above. more 3D.
a fade to black or that scene in UNFORGIVEN where freeman eastwoo sit next to a fire by night requires massive on off native i agree.

How is color saturation on the new Sim2 C3X Lumis?

sim2 lumis host "pdf brochure" say "till to 3000 lumen" but thats may a bit to much and more a marketing number.

3000 is the ANSI lumen number, the HT5000 is 4000 and yields around 1800. The alpha path causes some light loss.

If it does hit 2000, that will be amazing.

I just want to know how the contrast compares to the RS20 (which I was very impressed by).

i have the rs20 at the moment and will compare it with the lumis.

He said the Lumis looked as good as the new HT5000.

He said the Lumis looked as good as the new HT5000.

Thats impressive.

Its also a convenient way for you to get another sneaky slap at the 5k:D:D

Any word on the content?

"same demo clip from cedia of a singstress, it looked great but hard to tell because of type of content."

"same demo clip from cedia of a singstress, it looked great but hard to tell because of type of content."

Thanks Peter. I was hoping they maybe had a loop of varied content.

i have the rs20 at the moment and will compare it with the lumis.

Thanks, I would very much appreciate that. I assume you're getting a Lumis soon?

Funny, I thought the RS20 gave way more pop then my Sim. Colors and depth of field were a delight. The detail that the contrast brought out in color gradients etc was very impressive. Yes, it didn't have high ANSI and that was the only fault my eyes could see (in the three hours I spent with it).

Now, of course, I want both high ansi and high on/off, so I'm hoping the new Sim2 delivers on that.

Ian, The subject of the RS20 has been addressed, in the other thread, last time you raised it. The RS20 CR is higher than the Lumis. In all the other areas, as stated in the other thread, it lags behind.

Can we please keep this one OT and clear for actual Lumis info. Thanks.

Thanks Peter. I was hoping they maybe had a loop of varied content.

They played different content each day. Jason has pictures Ill share here as soon as he passes them along.

I owe an update with numbers but my lux meter is broken so I have to wait for Jason to return tomorrow so I can raid his calibration road case.

The optics are very good with this projector. An improvement over the 1080 C3X. I know convergence can be luck of the draw but I am perfect rt out to the corners with red being off less then 1/4 pixel on the far rt. Its so slight its hard to gage the error. No vissible chroma aberration. Viewing a cross hatch looks as good as my Marantz 11S2 which also has very good convergence:)

Once I get the numbers Ill post a thorough write up pictures.

Alan, one of the members in the other thread reported from CES, that there may be a new convergence adjustment setting in the Lumis. Can you confirm?

Thanks, I would very much appreciate that. I assume you're getting a Lumis soon?

read post number 33 at page 2.

Alan, one of the members in the other thread reported from CES, that there may be a new convergence adjustment setting in the Lumis. Can you confirm?

Ill ck shortly.

They played different content each day. Jason has pictures Ill share here as soon as he passes them along.

Content was displayed on the 5000 & cine curve. Not sure what we are looking at but the colors look nice.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2871.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2872.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2875.jpg

I took this without a tripod so its blurry but the software is there.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7623.JPG

Subjectively Alan, how is the light output ? Sounds like contrast is killer.


Art

Very cool convergence adjustment. Nice to know it is there if it is needed, but sounds like your unit is dead on. Thanks,

Subjectively Alan, how is the light output ? Sounds like contrast is killer.


Art

I just swapped out the Grey material for matte white. I have everything on its lowest setting, its way to bright for my taste but I am getting use to it. This is meaningless of course, I hope to have measurements tomorrow.

How is color saturation on the new Sim2 C3X Lumis?

The colors looked stunning. I'm in my room at Circus Circus. Just got back from the SIM suite. The C3X Lumis HOST has to be the best picture I've seen from a projector. We watched several minutes of Spiderman on Blu Ray with mixed light / dark scenes - the combination of bright obects and dark detail is pretty amazing. I want one !! The Elton John concert looked good too, but not nearly the test the Blu Ray movie was.

This is very exciting, Alan! I'm looking forward to your detailed impressions. Can't wait to get mine! :D

Craig:

You being a Projection Design guy did you get a peak at the Helios?

You being a Projection Design guy did you get a peak at the Helios?

No, I didn't see them. It's a big show - maybe I can see more tomorrow before we leave.

Unfortunately I will not have any measurements until tomorrow. Jason late today from CES.
Took a few quick pics showing bandwidth and optics performance. Just having some fun.

Disregard the tint from the camera. The image is so bright it is shutting down my camera and I am not sure what setting to use.

Here is a cap direct from Sony BD 1080p 24 through the Host via HDMI.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7628.JPG
This is a good pattern to ck both horizontal and vertical resolution and bandwidth.
Some projector technologies have a hard time resolving any detail at #10.
I do not see any choking or filtering here via the host.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7629.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7630.JPG
Showing overall convergence.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7632.JPG
Left side.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7633.JPG
Rt side off 1/4 pixel
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7634.JPG

Outstanding!!!

I just noticed for the first time the origin of the test pattern found on all Sony BD discs. Right here in my own backyard.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/screenshot_0133.jpg

Wow... Alan.. What would you guess the max lumens at?

Wow... Alan.. What would you guess the max lumens at?

Jeff Ill have some numbers tomorrow, finally!

Funny, I thought the RS20 gave way more pop then my Sim. Colors and depth of field were a delight. The detail that the contrast brought out in color gradients etc was very impressive. Yes, it didn't have high ANSI and that was the only fault my eyes could see (in the three hours I spent with it).

Now, of course, I want both high ansi and high on/off, so I'm hoping the new Sim2 delivers on that.

Seems odd that you would find more pop on the RS20, what size screens were you displaying each on, were they displayed both on the same screen with same material, and how many hours did they have on their respective bulbs?

Seems odd that you would find more pop on the RS20, what size screens were you displaying each on, were they displayed both on the same screen with same material, and how many hours did they have on their respective bulbs?

Micheal, See post #50. Lets try to keep on topic here.

PLEASE dont take that the wrong way, its just that there is a lot of interest in this baby, and it would be nice to keep the thread clear for information.

The other thread has got comparisons listed.

Jeff Ill have some numbers tomorrow, finally!

Those are some pretty impressive shots Alan. Thats up there at HT5k convergence levels.

I hope its typical. I know at least one other unit is similar. I've been told the chip alignment process has been improved.

I'll be taking a look during the week.:D

I'll be taking a look during the week.:D

Your thumbs up or down carry some weight, hard core & unbiased.
I am sure everyone is looking forward to your findings.

Wow... Alan.. What would you guess the max lumens at?

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when it comes to the light output, your screen should be fine for it.

Convergence is excellent so far, but I can only speak for two units. That was also the case for the first shipment of the old C3X1080 however, which later on turned into a little nightmare and I've also seen a few HT5ks go back to the factory.

It looks like this is a winner, further closing the CR gap between DLP and LCoS/SXRD. I wonder if the old C3X1080 will be replaced by a E-version for those not needing the Host.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when it comes to the light output, your screen should be fine for it.

Stephan, do you have a number?

I believe the initial idea was to restore it to the 1400 lumen of the old C3X rather than the 1100 lumen of the 1080.

It would seem, from a number of sources, that number has been exceeded.

Looks extremely promising!

Stephan, do you have a number?


No numbers, no. Only subjective impressions compared to the HT5k with a few hundred hours on the bulb.

Of course there are other things that may affect light output, such as throw distance and how much the lamp drops over time. I can't comment on those yet. But I'm not expecting it to be any different from the old C3X1080.

Unfortunately I will not have any measurements until tomorrow. Jason late today from CES.
Took a few quick pics showing bandwidth and optics performance. Just having some fun.

Disregard the tint from the camera. The image is so bright it is shutting down my camera and I am not sure what setting to use.

Here is a cap direct from Sony BD 1080p 24 through the Host via HDMI.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7628.JPG
This is a good pattern to ck both horizontal and vertical resolution and bandwidth.
Some projector technologies have a hard time resolving any detail at #10.
I do not see any choking or filtering here via the host.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7629.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7630.JPG
Showing overall convergence.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7632.JPG
Left side.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7633.JPG
Rt side off 1/4 pixel
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_7634.JPG

Wow Alan, that convergence is FANTASTIC for a 3 chipper. That bad boy has to be a light CANNON on even a negative 8ft screen. Wish I was there to see it! ;)

Cliffy

Unfortunately I will not have any measurements until tomorrow. Jason late today from CES.
Took a few quick pics showing bandwidth and optics performance. Just having some fun.


Alan,

Could you retake the last two pictures and shorten either the exposure time or use a higher f-ratio on your camera setting? The lines are overexposed so it is difficult to see any misalignment. You can try using a faster shutter speed until you can see the pixel structure in the lines. Thanks.

Very nice review, cannot wait for the numbers and some more surprising pics. :)

Among many others here I'm looking foward to the numbers. Of course ,things like overall performance, numbers won't give us so ,we are relying on you, Alan,to feed us.
Art

Your thumbs up or down carry some weight, hard core & unbiased.
I am sure everyone is looking forward to your findings.

High praise indeed, thank you for the kind words. Certain factions within AVS may have a rather different view.:D

I only hope I can live up to the billing.

Alan,

Can you comment please on this Dynamic Iris implementation. Is there any visible pumping? It took Sony a while to figure this one out and since this is Sim2's first foray in this territory ...

Alan,

Can you comment please on this Dynamic Iris implementation. Is there any visible pumping? It took Sony a while to figure this one out and since this is Sim2's first foray in this territory ...

Zero vissible/audible detection. The system is extremely fast and adapts on a per field or frame basis. Unless you increase the lamp output causing the fans to increase the projector is very quiet.

I saw no pumping either. In fact, I was told that the iris has a pear shaped opening and that it is moved extremely fast with a motor similar to that which powers a hard drive. And it works in conjunction with the lamp modulation.

Of course ,things like overall performance, numbers won't give us so ,we are relying on you, Alan,to feed us.

Well, it looked as sharp as my dVision 1080p single chip. And on the mixed light / very dark scenes on the Spiderman Blu Ray we watched, the level of detail and 3D depth of the picture made me wet my pants. The SIM guys said it has ANSI contrast that measures into the 4 figures. I believe them.

I saw no pumping either. In fact, I was told that the iris has a pear shaped opening and that it is moved extremely fast with a motor similar to that which powers a hard drive. And it works in conjunction with the lamp modulation.



Well, it looked as sharp as my dVision 1080p single chip. And on the mixed light / very dark scenes on the Spiderman Blu Ray we watched, the level of detail and 3D depth of the picture made me wet my pants. The SIM guys said it has ANSI contrast that measures into the 4 figures. I believe them.


Great to hear, ANSI contrast over 1000:1 ?

Art

I dont want to pre-empt my own write up but regarding the iris, and confirming what craig said.........Its a non symmetrical custom design and its supposedly using the fastest and quietest motor yet used in a PJ.

Wow, all of this sounds really promising, looking forward to more info.

Congratulations Alan, Enjoy!!!

What does the non-symmetrical design bring to the table? Does it adapt shape somehow to let more light through on brighter areas of the image? Sorry for the dumb question, but I'm trying to wrap my head around the reasoning on that.

Four digit ANSI contrast measurements :eek: , sounds juicy!

What is the length of the fiber optic cable that runs from the host to the PJ?

So far I'm trying to see what's not to like about this projector.:)

Art

Finally some numbers.

57 hours on the lamp.
D65
Aemc model CA813 light meter
Edit: Measurements were taken with dynamic black engaged.

2315 lumens hi lamp open iris
1768 " low lamp open iris
2094 " hi lamp closed iris
1640 " low lamp closed iris

Contrast to follow.

WOW!!!

Is the projector calibrated??

Again, what is they typical lumens drop for a UHP lamp in the first few hundred hours??

Thanks!!

Thaks for the info Alan... this piece may serve my needs!

Looks like for price vs performance vs quality, might be a possible winner.

Thanks for the infos Alan.

WOW!!!

Is the projector calibrated??

Again, what is they typical lumens drop for a UHP lamp in the first few hundred hours??



I would say a 30% drop should be in your calculations after the lamp stabilizes. The drop might be less [20%-25%] with this new beauty by Sim2.

Those are real good numbers posted by Alan. However, it's at 57 right now and the drop is continuous in the first 150 odd hours.

For a 12 foot scope screen this seems like the ticket. Since you have a 14 feet screen you may have to wait a little longer to confirm whether it can drive it or whether you will need quicker lamp changes. Good luck in your hunt.

I would say a 30% drop should be in your calculations after the lamp stabilizes. The drop might be less [20%-25%] with this new beauty by Sim2.

Those are real good numbers posted by Alan. However, it's at 57 right now and the drop is continuous in the first 150 odd hours.

For a 12 foot scope screen this seems like the ticket. Since you have a 14 feet screen you may have to wait a little longer to confirm whether it can drive it or whether you will need quicker lamp changes. Good luck in your hunt.

Thanks.

I have had my Qualia almost 5 years and have accumulated a total of 900 hours. I'd be happy to change bulbs once a year at the low UHP lamp cost (versus Xenon).

Finally some numbers.

57 hours on the lamp.
D65
Aemc model CA813 light meter
Edit: Measurements were taken with dynamic black engaged.

2315 lumens hi lamp open iris
1768 " low lamp open iris
2094 " hi lamp closed iris
1640 " low lamp closed iris

Contrast to follow.


Alan:

I don't understand something I am assuming the dynamic Black engaged means the Dynamic Iris is on? If so you can further adjust the Iris to open and closed ?

Thanks.

I have had my Qualia almost 5 years and have accumulated a total of 900 hours. I'd be happy to change bulbs once a year at the low UHP lamp cost (versus Xenon).

Jeff,
This might be the projector for you. Check the bulb pricing so that you have a figure in your mind. The bulb prices vary by manufacturer and model. The initial impressions of this projector are nothing but excellent.

Alan:

I don't understand something I am assuming the dynamic Black engaged means the Dynamic Iris is on? If so you can further adjust the Iris to open and closed ?

Yes, the projector also has a 2nd iris ( manual ) which you can adjust independent to the dynamic iris while the dynamic iris is working. There is no control over the dynamic iris. You simply engage dynamic black to turn it on.

I don't understand something I am assuming the dynamic Black engaged means the Dynamic Iris is on? If so you can further adjust the Iris to open and closed ?I believe there is a manual iris in the lens in addition to the dynamic system using something before the chips to modulate the light (other than the bulb).

Jeff,

Do you feel the Qualia with iris open gives you enough light for your screen? Sounds like this projector would be brighter than the Qualia. Also, you could consider changing out for a brighter material than the Firehawk (like a StudioTek 130 that wouldn't have as much falloff toward the sides).

--Darin

Oh, that is a great feature, currently with the HD6K-M it is either Manual or Dynamic not both.

It will be interesting to see, when Alan posts the CR numbers at the various iris positions, if the manual iris, which is in the lens, affects ANSI, where the new iris, right after the lamp would not.

The high lamp closed iris is still higher than the HT 5000 with a new lamp.

The 5000 has a fixed cats eye iris.

Art

It will be interesting to see, when Alan posts the CR numbers at the various iris positions, if the manual iris, which is in the lens, affects ANSI, where the new iris, right after the lamp would not.

No iris in the lens or optical path. One is after the lamp and the other is in the integrator rod ( spelling ). This maintains full ANSI contrast regardless your settings.

I believe there is a manual iris in the lens in addition to the dynamic system using something before the chips to modulate the light (other than the bulb).

Jeff,

Do you feel the Qualia with iris open gives you enough light for your screen? Sounds like this projector would be brighter than the Qualia. Also, you could consider changing out for a brighter material than the Firehawk (like a StudioTek 130 that wouldn't have as much falloff toward the sides).

--Darin

Right now, I am on HIGH LAMP and IRIS Partly CLosed (in between full open and closed) with my Qualia.

Darin, I switched to a 14' wide Studio Tek 1.3 gain Microperf last year.

I subjectively feel things are slightly dim in its calibrated setting. Now, when I watch TV and jack up the contrast, etc.. it seems pretty bright (at some PQ costs of course).

This piece has a smaller footprint and is quiet... It may do it for me.

No iris in the lens or optical path. One is after the lamp and the other is in the integrator rod ( spelling ). This maintains full ANSI contrast regardless your settings.

Aha!! This is excellent. I didn't realize that both iris were out of the optical path. Must be the reason for the claim that the ANSI number is into 4 digits. Will be very interesting to see if you measure that high (if it is possible with your room conditions).

i would say a 30% drop should be in your calculations after the lamp stabilizes. The drop might be less [20%-25%] with this new beauty by sim2.

Those are real good numbers posted by alan. However, it's at 57 right now and the drop is continuous in the first 150 odd hours.

For a 12 foot scope screen this seems like the ticket. Since you have a 14 feet screen you may have to wait a little longer to confirm whether it can drive it or whether you will need quicker lamp changes. Good luck in your hunt.

yes that right but please note that this pr. use a new uhp lamp
design (unishape) that may is differnt fom normaly uhp
lamps.
anyway this number more than confirm my estimate from 2000 lumen with post number 33 and thats very nice.

I guess a new pr. will have at least 2500 lumen with a lamp at 5 hours
and this at D65! :)

now the big question is the cr. the unit have.

even if its not as high as the pdf say (till to 35000:1) note that the light out that have be measured are not that far of from the pdf numbers
(up to 3000 lumen) may
now the cr. is also close to the pdf number.

may at arround 20000-25000:1 range:)

sad my screen is even with 2500 lumen to big as i like it very bright!

this number more than confirm my estimate from 2000 lumen with post number 33 and thats very nice.

It does indeed. I thought it would be around 1400-1500.

I really wasn't expecting that at all.

.It may do it for me.

If those numbers are typical, a 14ft perf will be no problem.

High lamp, closed iris will start you at 29fL

High lamp, open iris will start at 32.

Can one use that manual second IRIS to cut down on the light output when the bulb is new ??

Can one use that manual second IRIS to cut down on the light output when the bulb is new ??

Yes, I believe so. Plus, one can lower the lamp output.

I remember reading that the iris in the C3X1080 didn't have much range, but I was surprised to see how little difference the manual iris in the Lumis made. It only lowered the white level by about 10%. I wonder if it has much effect on on/off CR. I'm guessing it won't be much given the small range, but it could if there is a spot in the same plane as that iris with bad black level that closing the iris down blocks.

--Darin

If those numbers are typical, a 14ft perf will be no problem.

High lamp, closed iris will start you at 29fL

High lamp, open iris will start at 32.

Thanks for the calculations.. Those numbers are music to my ears (and over 2X as bright as I am getting right now)~!

Alan Gouger
I hope we will get both static and dynamic contrast?
How low dE did you have in the measured calibration?

Do you think the static cr will be higher or lower than HT5000? I guess a hair lower. Art is your HT5000 about 6k:1?

Thanks for the calculations.. Those numbers are music to my ears (and over 2X as bright as I am getting right now)~!

Just to be clear, I used a gain of 1.15 for a cloth of 1.3 gain with perfx2. I think that's right, or close enough.

You will aslo find that the lamp aging has less effect than on other PJs.

The HT5k is amazing for that. I lost 20% at 200hrs then it flattened out at 23%, and that was the worst HT5k id heard of. Some are actually under 20%. Hopefully the Lumis will be similar.

Do you think the static cr will be higher or lower than HT5000? I guess a hair lower. Art is your HT5000 about 6k:1?

Thats an interesting question. The 1080 is significantly higher than the HT5000.

They may have used a wider iris to get more light, at the expense of some native. There have also been some major changes made to the internals ans chassis, but Im not sure of any of those have impacted the light.

Ive always disliked DIs. Ive heard from a couple of people that this unit is the best implementation yet as its so fast and silent. Alan's unit seems to support this.

I hope to be able post my own observations tomorrow or Wednesday.

So far I'm trying to see what's not to like about this projector.:)

Art

My thoughts exactly!

What sort of lamp life do these have? What sort of throw distance for 10' - 14' scope screens?

Thanks for the calculations.. Those numbers are music to my ears (and over 2X as bright as I am getting right now)~!

Jeff once you see what over 20fL looks like on your screen you will not look back,that I can assure you. With 25,000:1 and if real over 1000:1 ANSI contrast this is the piece to beat. I'd call this the UberKontrast.:D

Art

Do you think the static cr will be higher or lower than HT5000? I guess a hair lower. Art is your HT5000 about 6k:1?

Yes ,about 6100:1 but, as has been stated, although the cats eye in the lens does increase sequential contrast it may hurt ANSI contrast a bit. The Lumis keeps the iris out of the lens.

Art

I'd call this the UberKontrast.:D

:D:D

I can see that already pulling him in like a frikkin' tractor beam. I really hope he doesn't let us down, I want an UberRant...Rantus Maxumus.

Here's to hoping the CR is 15k+...

Alan,
What does the host do? Is it simply a switcher or is it a processor?
The Host does not have a HDMI out so If one uses a switcher (In my case a Lumagen Radiance with bypass) all my 5 sources goto the Radiance then the one output from the Radiance goes to one input of the the Host.
So if I have 5 sources would I be able to program 5 calibrated memories to this one input?
Or better question is how many calibrated memories can you program to each Host input.
Thanks in advance.
Ash

Here's to hoping the CR is 15k+...

We measured over 20k today but my setup was not ideal. Its higher.
The contrast is good enough that it suports good shadow detail using 2.4 gamma. I do not know of any other dlp 1 or 3 chip that can do this.

how many calibrated memories can you program to each Host input.
Thanks in advance.
Ash

Hi Ash

In a sense it is a switcher, it may contain the projectors processing. If I am not mistaken there are 3 memories per input.
6 hdmi and one dvi.
Your Radiance offers separate memory per input so you should be all set.

You mean 2.4 don't you?
How about ANSI any measurement on that?

You mean 2.4 don't you?
How about ANSI any measurement on that?

Good catch, fixed. Thx Phil.

Will give ANSI a try in the next few days. I am confident its way up there.

Will give ANSI a try in the next few days. I am confident its way up there.

Looking forward to your findings Alan, this may be the projector that finally brings me to digital... will try give you a call sometime this week! :)

We measured over 20k today but my setup was not ideal. Its higher.
The contrast is good enough that it suports good shadow detail using 2.4 gamma. I do not know of any other dlp 1 or 3 chip that can do this.




Wow. OK, I want one :-) What did the previous C3X1080 measure for CR (I can't recall)? I'm thinking it was 6.5k or somewhere thereabouts?

Wow. OK, I want one :-) What did the previous C3X1080 measure for CR (I can't recall)? I'm thinking it was 6.5k or somewhere thereabouts?

Numbers I heard were 9,000:1 on/off and 700:1 ANSI.

Alan Gouger
So 20000+:1 with DB.
What did you get without DB?

Any dates regarding availability and will Sim keep both new and old C3x models for sale?
Can you disable dynamic contrast? if so pls measure CR with dynamic off.
One last question. do you have it connected to an HTPC??

Any dates regarding availability and will Sim keep both new and old C3x models for sale?
Can you disable dynamic contrast? if so pls measure CR with dynamic off.
One last question. do you have it connected to an HTPC??

It shipping now.

1640 lumens in low lamp, iris closed mode, ugh.

Is there any way to reduce the light output further?

According to Carleton Bale, that would be roughly 60 ft lamberts on a 120" D2.35:1, 1.3 gain screen. That's a tad bright.

Any chance Sim2 might offer this PJ with a 200 or 250 watt UHP bulb? Perhaps in the previous one box solution?

Alan Gouger, last I read your screen is an 8ft wide scope. You must be at at least 50 plus ft lamberts, even with a 1.0 gain screen? You have commented, in this thread, that it is a bit bright for you.

If you use the long end of one of the 3 zooms, you could lose another 20- 30%? Anything else? Aged bulb 20%? Zooming vs anamorphic?

Alan,
What does the host do? Is it simply a switcher or is it a processor?
The Host does not have a HDMI out so If one uses a switcher (In my case a Lumagen Radiance with bypass) all my 5 sources goto the Radiance then the one output from the Radiance goes to one input of the the Host.
So if I have 5 sources would I be able to program 5 calibrated memories to this one input?
Or better question is how many calibrated memories can you program to each Host input.
Thanks in advance.
Ash

Ash, just do all your programming / calibrations in the Radiance and send to the SIM2.You'd only need one SIM2 calibrration.

1640 lumens in low lamp, iris closed mode, ugh.

Is there any way to reduce the light output further?

According to Carleton Bale, that would be roughly 60 ft lamberts on a 120" D2.35:1, 1.3 gain screen. That's a tad bright.

Any chance Sim2 might offer this PJ with a 200 or 250 watt UHP bulb? Perhaps in the previous one box solution?

Alan Gouger, last I read your screen is an 8ft wide scope. You must be at at least 50 plus ft lamberts, even with a 1.0 gain screen? You have commented, in this thread, that it is a bit bright for you.

If you use the long end of one of the 3 zooms, you could lose another 20- 30%? Anything else? Aged bulb 20%? Zooming vs anamorphic?

ND filter.

What is the throw ratio on this? I need a short throw...

ND filter.

Are there any that dont trash ANSI.

I tried one last year that was popular here (admittedly not this forum) and it was totally shite.

It did the job but the ANSI degradation was very obvious. It may have worked on low ANSI, low MTF machines, but not otherwise.

There may be professional units that would be suitable, but I haven't looked into it.

I will be testing the Lumis at over 30fL anyway, so will report on that.

What is the throw ratio on this? I need a short throw...

T1= 1.37-1.66

T2= 1.75-2.48:1

T3= 2.6-3.9:1

LJ, You absolutely MUST wait to have that physically confirmed if you are near the ends.

What does this piece run without the Host??

The Host is about 5 grand, but it won't work without it.

Edit: What I mean by that, is that the non-Host versions of previous projectors are about 5 grand less than the Host versions. The Host versions will not work without the Host box.

Are there any that dont trash ANSI.

Schneider makes very high quality glass ND filters with high performance AR coatings. The trick is to use them at an angle of about 7 degrees to minimize back reflections.

Another option is a very low gain screen. Stewart can make matte gray screens in the 0.6 gain range. These would also help with retaining ANSI CR because of the low gain, although the lack of directionality cancels some of that.

The Host is about 5 grand, but it won't work without it.

Edit: What I mean by that, is that the non-Host versions of previous projectors are about 5 grand less than the Host versions. The Host versions will not work without the Host box.


So no need for a Radiance??

The projector will not work without the host... see picture back.
So using a Radiance may not be the answer if the host does processing and can be used for calibration and different gamma curves can be applied to different in puts.
We need to learn more about the Host. Maybe a user manual would be usefull.
With a 12 foot wide 2:35 screen and 26 foot throw T2 lens should work for me.

If you require the flexibility of all the inputs the host has to offer that may be the way to go. I am not sure ( I have no first hand inside info ) they could migrate all the inputs to the projector if eliminating the host. The projectors foot print is to small. I would guess the stand alone would get the standard 2 HDMI inputs.

Schneider makes very high quality glass ND filters with high performance AR coatings. The trick is to use them at an angle of about 7 degrees to minimize back reflections.

Thanks. Im sure that's exactly what some people will be looking for.

Thats whats so great about this place, there's always someone who knows.

Alan Gouger, last I read your screen is an 8ft wide scope. You must be at at least 50 plus ft lamberts, even with a 1.0 gain screen? You have commented, in this thread, that it is a bit bright for you.

Are there any that dont trash ANSI.


Schneider makes very high quality glass ND filters with high performance AR coatings. The trick is to use them at an angle of about 7 degrees to minimize back reflections.


Yes this thing is way bright for my screen size but surprisingly the image remains clean with good source ( blue ray ) but some satellite content falls short.
I will have to look into one of those Schneider NDs.
I just ordered a large ( so I can angle it ) multi coated from another vendor. I tried a gray screen but did not like it. I have a standard ND filter on hand much preferred it to the gray screen.

What does this piece run without the Host??

Just to clarify what others have said.....This is a HOST PJ. HOST isnt an add on unit

Dont think of it as a processor or anything like that. Its basically a PJ that has been split in 2, with the electronics remote from the optics. This allows for the huge expansion of the inputs and offers the ability to locate the input stage in your equipment rack. It also means the Optical part of the PJ runs cooler and quieter.

The projector will not work without the host... see picture back.
So using a Radiance may not be the answer if the host does processing and can be used for calibration and different gamma curves can be applied to different in puts.
We need to learn more about the Host. Maybe a user manual would be usefull.
With a 12 foot wide 2:35 screen and 26 foot throw T2 lens should work for me.

No. You use your 16 x 9 width. You are towards the short end of the T3. (2.8-2.9)

Kevin

A comment on contrast. We measured "over" 20k yesterday but my projector lies behind a wall firing through a port hole. Jason could not optimize his light meter properly to maximize the measurement. It is much higher.
I have the MicroSpec Spectroradiometer which I have to load the latest software I just have not had the time but this will give superior reading to Jason's method.

The biggest problem with the Host, as has been pointed out before, is no HDMI out for advanced audio. However, it certainly seems that it would not be too expensive to swap out the Host, in the future, if they come out with one that does not have this limitation.

However, it certainly seems that it would not be too expensive to swap out the Host, in the future, if they come out with one that does not have this limitation.

Producing a non HOST version MAY not be that straight forward. Im not saying that is definitely the case, but its a possibility.Here's, potentially, why....

Part of the problem with the C3X1080 was performance limitations due to lack of space inside the box, partly due to the larger chips. This was as a result of the insistence of sticking with the C3X footprint. If the Lumis is physically making use of the increased space available, that may prevent a non host unit from being practical.

IO Gear makes HDMI 1.3 splitters. ...
Not sure to go with or without the Radiance.

Boy it sure would be nice if Sim2 could offer an optional lower wattage bulb for this PJ.

That would increase it's market share to those who are screen width/room width challenged and avoid any potential negatives associated with special screen materials and add on filters.

I may just give up and go with an in theater RS20 rather than a PJ booth PJ. Not that there's anything wrong with that:D

I wonder how many hours were on the bulb of the one I saw at CES? It wasn't a very big screen, and it sure didn't seem too bright to me. It was just right! My screens would start out around 38 foot lamberts !!

Some customers in my local dealer reported issues with the "old" C3X 1080 set to the lowest lamp brightness, specifically a flickering picture.

I recall Sim saying it was a common issue with the lamp at the lowest power setting. Sim told me recently that this would not be a factor with the new lamp technology in the Lumis.

Any one ever experience this?

Sean

Potential non issue if they offer a lower wattage bulb option.

300 watts for the well endowed.

200 watts for the less fortunate.

Some customers in my local dealer reported issues with the "old" C3X 1080 set to the lowest lamp brightness, specifically a flickering picture.

I recall Sim saying it was a common issue with the lamp at the lowest power setting. Sim told me recently that this would not be a factor with the new lamp technology in the Lumis.

Any one ever experience this?

Sean

Its a lamp issue called arc jump or arc wander. Its nothing to do with the actual PJ per se.

Its caused by the arc striking in a different position and then jumping or wandering between the strike points. It can be minimized by running on high lamp for a while initially to establish a solid strike point.

Its not an issue with modulated lamps.

What is the current MSRP for the HOST version?

This HOST.

1. What could it possibly doing where it is 'NEEDED" for the PJ. Could somebody explain? It simply looks like a switcher.. (are one of the control ports on the Host connected to the projector - is this why it is 'needed')?

2. Does the Host act as a switcher or does it do video processing?

3. Does the projecter even have an internal HDMI port? A second DVI port?

Thanks!

Producing a non HOST version MAY not be that straight forward. Im not saying that is definitely the case, but its a possibility.Here's, potentially, why....

Part of the problem with the C3X1080 was performance limitations due to lack of space inside the box, partly due to the larger chips. This was as a result of the insistence of sticking with the C3X footprint. If the Lumis is physically making use of the increased space available, that may prevent a non host unit from being practical.

Does the Lumis not have the folded light path of the 1080? If it is taking advantage of the extra space, perhaps the optics are improved due to this, not to mention cooling, and noise improvements.

Does the Host act as a switcher or does it do video processing?

I believe it does both.

Does the Lumis not have the folded light path of the 1080? If it is taking advantage of the extra space, perhaps the optics are improved due to this, not to mention cooling, and noise improvements.

If I recall correctly, the SIM guys at CES said it was taking advantage of the extra space. It is a very quiet projector.

This HOST.

1. What could it possibly doing where it is 'NEEDED" for the PJ. Could somebody explain? It simply looks like a switcher.. (are one of the control ports on the Host connected to the projector - is this why it is 'needed')?

2. Does the Host act as a switcher or does it do video processing?

3. Does the projecter even have an internal HDMI port? A second DVI port?

Thanks!

Maybe you missed earlier post #146

The HOST isnt an add on unit, it actually part of the PJ. The PJ has been split into 2 parts. Most of the electronics have been removed and remoted from the optical unit.

The part that you are referring to as the "projector" is actually only half of the projector. It has most of its internals missing, as they are in the HOST unit.

The HOST unit connects to the PJ by a fiber cable, that can be upto 750 feet. I will be very glad of that facility as i will be running audio and video distribution throughout the house from an equipment room that is a fair distance from the Lumis' location.

Does the Lumis not have the folded light path of the 1080? If it is taking advantage of the extra space, perhaps the optics are improved due to this, not to mention cooling, and noise improvements.


IIRC, this was discussed as one of the benefits of moving the internals to the HOST.

Jim

Maybe you missed earlier post #146

The HOST isnt an add on unit, it actually part of the PJ. The PJ has been split into 2 parts. Most of the electronics have been removed and remoted from the optical unit.

The part that you are referring to as the "projector" is actually only half of the projector. It has most of its internals missing, as they are in the HOST unit.

The HOST unit connects to the PJ by a fiber cable, that can be upto 750 feet. I will be very glad of that facility as i will be running audio and video distribution throughout the house from an equipment room that is a fair distance from the Lumis' location.

Interesting, no wonder it's so compact.


A comment on contrast. We measured "over" 20k yesterday but my projector lies behind a wall firing through a port hole. Jason could not optimize his light meter properly to maximize the measurement. It is much higher.
I have the MicroSpec Spectroradiometer which I have to load the latest software I just have not had the time but this will give superior reading to Jason's method.


Wow! Finally something that delivers high on/off and ANSI. The complete package. No doubt the quality control will be very good so unit to unit variation isn't an issue. This sounds like a reference piece to design a HT around.

Maybe you missed earlier post #146

The HOST isnt an add on unit, it actually part of the PJ. The PJ has been split into 2 parts. Most of the electronics have been removed and remoted from the optical unit.

The part that you are referring to as the "projector" is actually only half of the projector. It has most of its internals missing, as they are in the HOST unit.

The HOST unit connects to the PJ by a fiber cable, that can be upto 750 feet. I will be very glad of that facility as i will be running audio and video distribution throughout the house from an equipment room that is a fair distance from the Lumis' location.

Got it and understand it. Thanks, CM.

Got it and understand it. Thanks, CM.

No problem. The first time I saw a HOST unit I had a few WTF moments:D

One good thing is that it isn't new, so the whole HOST idea is fairly mature.

I luv my C3X 1080 and won't be upgrading to the new Lumis - only due to cost considerations of course.

Folks who criticized the C3X 1080, that Sim2 should design the internals into a new case
with improved performance - apparently Sim2 listened and did this. WOW!#@@

Some customers in my local dealer reported issues with the "old" C3X 1080 set to the lowest lamp brightness, specifically a flickering picture.

I recall Sim saying it was a common issue with the lamp at the lowest power setting. Sim told me recently that this would not be a factor with the new lamp technology in the Lumis.

Any one ever experience this?

Sean

I keep mine on lowest lamp, have over 300 hours on it and have never seen any flickering -- or any other issue.

I had a few small episodes of bulb flicker on my 720, but not my 1080

I keep mine on lowest lamp, have over 300 hours on it and have never seen any flickering -- or any other issue.

Me, too, usually 200 for 16:9 and 210 or 220 for 2:35. 8" wide for 16:9.
128" wide for 2:35. 1.3 gain Stewart Studiotek.:D

Mine will flicker at 200 after a while - and if I recall correctly, running it higher for a while cures the problem. I currently run at 220 with no flickering whatsoever.

I leave mine on torch all the time I like being able to read the paper when I'm watching movies.Also it saves battery power on my lighted remote.

Art

i leave mine on torch all the time i like being able to read the paper when i'm watching movies.also it saves battery power on my lighted remote.

Art

lol

Very nice picture and quiet. Why one would buy the next level up is beyond me. This rig is the real deal.

The video server outfit had the same demo as CEDIA no additional content. It was a semi flat chested hottie in a white pant suit singing, Mandy Moore??

I stumbled accros the PD room. When I inquired about Wolf being at the show one guy almost came (sorry a AVN moment) before he could tell me that division (of whomever they were part of) has been shut down for a month. They had a single chip on display for $30K as I recall. Colors looked flat and the blacks were off to my eye but they thought it was film like...

I also thought the Lumis was a great PJ at CES, Sim2 has a winner here. I spent about an hour there and they let me play with it, so I took the liberty of pausing it to take some screenshots for those that want to see them they are in the link provided amongst other PJ's. Also note the new Optoma which also delivers an outstanding picture.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34271874@N05/

It's great to be excited about DLP again.

I have a call in to a dealer to see one of these but he is not sure when he will get one in.

I reiterate Ohlson's request about on/off with Dynamic Black disabled. It is still recommended that this feature should not be engaged, correct?

I reiterate Ohlson's request about on/off with Dynamic Black disabled. It is still recommended that this feature should not be engaged, correct?

I look forward to this as well.

I'm hoping we're not back down under 10k when disabled.

I look forward to this as well.

I'm hoping we're not back down under 10k when disabled.

Ian, It may be, if the iris has had to be opened for the light output. The point may be moot anyway.

It appears with this combination of technologies, that the dynamic system is totally transparent.

I've never been a DI fan, but this is certainly not a normal DI implementation at all.

I should have more to post soon.

Can someone confirm Chris Dallas's CES observation on his flickr pic link, that the new Lumis was projecting on a 109" wide 2.35:1 screen?

I am assuming it was the same material Sim2 used at Cedia-Stewart Studiotec g3 1.3 gain non AT?

Question: why would one want to disable dynamic black anyway?

question to C3X 1080 owners: have you noticed digital/dlp noise in some scenes of Transformers hd dvd ?
in the dark blues especially.
what settings do you have ?
i'm in full lamp 250, iris open, birgthness 51 contrast 65 (which influences punch brigthness screen is 400cm scope wide), color 54, gamma trying user 2.2, color spectrum EBU, temp D75.
sce: onkyo hd dvd player 805.

Question: why would one want to disable dynamic black anyway?

Other than to take a measurement, you wouldn't. The integration of all the CR constituents seems very, very tight on this unit. Even the manual DI position is a biasing input the control system.

There are those idiots who would like nothing more than to portray the unit as a low CR piece that simply has a DI. Fortunately they are pretty easy to spot.

A comment regarding the dynamic iris.
I have yet to turn off DB. It is indeed completely invisible. Because there are no side effects there's no reason to turn it off. You would never know its on.
It does not operate like any typical iris weve all experienced. This is something completely different, Ive yet to figure out the mechanics of this but it sets a new bench mark.
You have to experience this projector to understand. I am betting all owners of this machine will never turn off DB.
Once I have the time ( soon ) I will still provide numbers for both iris on/off.

Question: why would one want to disable dynamic black anyway?

To be able to find out what the so called native contrast of the unit actually is.

Because of the way this is implemented, however, I think one has to question the validity of the concept due to the blurring of native and DI implemented contrast in this unit.

It may end up being purely an academic exercise but might be interesting none the less



Art

It appears with this combination of technologies, that the dynamic system is totally transparent.

I couldn't see any negative effects in the time I watched it. This new lightning fast DI controlled by a motor similar to that used in computer hard drives, combined with the lamp modulation, puts this dynamic iris system in a whole new league as far as I'm concerned. Hats off the the engineers at SIM2.

A comment regarding the dynamic iris.
I have yet to turn off DB. It is indeed completely invisible. Because there are no side effects there's no reason to turn it off. You would never know its on.
It does not operate like any typical iris weve all experienced. This is something completely different, Ive yet to figure out the mechanics of this but it sets a new bench mark.
You have to experience this projector to understand. I am betting all owners of this machine will never turn off DB.
Once I have the time ( soon ) I will still provide numbers for both iris on/off.

Alan,

since you have the Lumis there can you just do a side-by-side for black level with the RS20 if you don't mind. Although the blacks looked good at CES they didn't strike me like the RS20 where they are inky black. There is no question these PJ's are in 2 different leagues but the RS20's blacks imo still reign but need a confirmation from a side-by-side if you don't mind.

since you have the Lumis there can you just do a side-by-side for black level with the RS20 if you don't mind

I will have a Lumis very soon. Hopefully, I will be able to directly compare with the C3X1080, 11S2, RS20, Sony 4k SXRD......... and possibly an HT5000 and a Barco DCI unit. Time may not permit the last 2 as they wont be at my place.

Black level, taken in isolation, wont translate into any really meaningful criteria by which to judge an overall image. It is important, but the J6P fixation that's seen elsewhere is rather shortsighted and ill-informed. All you need do is compare a comparatively low CR DCI unit to the RS20 you mention to see that. Any number of high end domestic units will show the same.

Black level, taken in isolation, wont translate into any really meaningful criteria by which to judge an overall image. It is important, but the J6P fixation that's seen elsewhere is rather shortsighted and ill-informed. All you need do is compare a 2.5k CR DCI unit to the RS20 you mention to see that.

Or my dVision 1080p to an RS1. When comparing those two, I still much prefered the dVision's picture despite the lower on / off contrast ratio.

Alan,

since you have the Lumis there can you just do a side-by-side for black level with the RS20 if you don't mind. Although the blacks looked good at CES they didn't strike me like the RS20 where they are inky black. There is no question these PJ's are in 2 different leagues but the RS20's blacks imo still reign but need a confirmation from a side-by-side if you don't mind.

I will have a Lumis very soon. I will be able to directly compare with the C3X1080, 11S2, RS20, Sony 4k SXRD......... and hopefully an HT5000 and a Barco DCI unit. Time may not permit the last 2 as they wont be at my place.

Black level, taken in isolation, wont translate into any really meaningful criteria by which to judge an overall image. It is important, but the J6P fixation that's seen elsewhere is rather shortsighted and ill-informed. All you need do is compare a 2.5k CR DCI unit to the RS20 you mention to see that.

Hi Chris

I no longer have the RS20 setup in my room. Looks like CM will be the best to report on a comparison over a wide range of projectors....you lucky dog:)

I will comment though based on memory. I lived with the RS2 for a year and then the RS20 for a month. Viewing 235:1 content without an add on lens the Lumis is better. There are no vissible bars but my RS still showed some slightly. I could dial them out completely with the RS but in doing so my black level was crushed. With the Lumis not only are the bars black but you have some flexibility in brightness in the active picture before it effects the black bars top/bottom. My personal preference is to see all the shadow detail without crush. When a movie calls for black with the lumis it steps up to the plate. Of course it can be adjusted to crush black as well if your not careful. I always felt shadow detail was crushed a little using gamma 2.4 with the JVC, maybe it was my settings. This is where DLP excels, the high ANSI could be the reason cutting through revealing extra detail across the entire IRE range.
Both machines deliver some of the best black level from digital no doubt. I wish the flood gate would open for the Lumis so it starts shipping in volume so we can hear from others.
CM..batters up!

Or my dVision 1080p to an RS1. When comparing those two, I still much prefered the dVision's picture despite the lower on / off contrast ratio.

Absolutely no question whatsoever.

Good luck convincing J6P of that fact.:D

There are those idiots who would like nothing more than to portray the unit as a low CR piece that simply has a DI. Fortunately they are pretty easy to spot.

Not sure who you're referring to here, but for the record let me just say I have no experience at all with a DI projector. I've read reports where people have had mixed feelings towards it and merely wanted to understand what the native contrast was as a fallback. Yes, if the implementation is as good as it sounds like it is, it would be more or less a moot point. But since you *can* disable it, I figured there must be a reason. I'm seriously considering buying this projector so it would be nice to understand.

The Dynamic Black feature has only been mentioned when discusiing the black bars from 2.35 material. Does DB effect the entire image as well or is it's main purpose to eliminate the bars.

Chris your in Lions Den, tread carefully:D

Thanks,
JC

Not sure who you're referring to here

Absolutely not your good self.

Im actually a long time DI hater myself. It wont get a pass from me if its in any way intrusive.

Unless I'm mistaken, this unit does not have local dimming so any reduction in light levels would have to affect the entire frame. Obviously, dynamic gamma should be used but unless there is something new involved with this implementation, the native CR will limit the dynamic range in any single frame.

The Dynamic Black feature has only been mentioned when discusiing the black bars from 2.35 material. Does DB effect the entire image as well or is it's main purpose to eliminate the bars.

Chris your in Lions Den, tread carefully:D

Thanks,
JC

DB,lamp modulation have a positive effect on the entire image.

I have not been a fan of dynamic iris, so I will give it great scrutiny, when it arrives. Of course I will also be comparing it directly to my RS20. As for why the DB can be disabled, I think it is so that you can see what it is doing, and agree it would be interesting to have CR measurements with it on and off.

I will have a Lumis very soon. Hopefully, I will be able to directly compare with the C3X1080, 11S2, RS20, Sony 4k SXRD......... and possibly an HT5000 and a Barco DCI unit. Time may not permit the last 2 as they wont be at my place.

WOW CM has more cash than Kellogs got cornflakes!

A comment regarding the dynamic iris.
I have yet to turn off DB. It is indeed completely invisible. Because there are no side effects there's no reason to turn it off. You would never know its on.
It does not operate like any typical iris weve all experienced. This is something completely different, Ive yet to figure out the mechanics of this but it sets a new bench mark.
You have to experience this projector to understand. I am betting all owners of this machine will never turn off DB.
Once I have the time ( soon ) I will still provide numbers for both iris on/off.

Thanks Alan,

I have not yet seen a truly invisible DI. That does not mean that all things considered, I would rather run a particular PJ with the DI on because it does far more harm than good. I seem to recall some recommendation that was made about Planar's implementation of Dynamic Black that it was best left off. That is why I asked.

I look forward to seeing one soon.

Again, it is good that there is excitement again in the DLP camp.

I'm confused by CES reports re: the lumen output of this new unit from the demo on the 109" wide 2.35:1 screen.

In particular, in post #153, Craig Peer states he didn't think the Lumis CES demo was particularly bright at all, even though the screen seemed small to him.

Chris Dallas's flickr screen shots from the show, list the Lumis demo screen size as 109" wide at 2.35:1. That size would mesh with Craig's observation that the screen was not very big. The screenshots Chris posted on flickr do not look overly bright to me either.

In this thread, Alan Gouger posted the minimum lumen output of the new Lumis to be 1640 lumens at low lamp, iris closed, with 50 plus hours on the lamp. Assuming Sim2 used Stewart Studiotec g3 1.3 gain material for this CES demo, Carleton Bale's HT calculator pegs the actual ft lamberts at this 109" wide 2.35:1 screen to be 60 ft lamberts. A 1.0 gain material screen would yield 45ft lamberts.

45-60 Ft lamberts seems pretty bright to me. Wouldn't this have been be very noticeable at the CES demo?

about cr.

please pay attention that the limitation is your room and NOT the pr.
when we talk about rs20 and lumis and other high cr. pr.

i saw the rs 20 at a dealer that have a bright room and i think the pr. was
brocken.
i am sure they not have more than 1500:1 on off visible at the screen.
possible less than 1000:1!!!
this rs 20 look worse than a early 1280x720 first gerneration lcd in my room!

its the room and i know why my cinema is a black box with all the not nice
looking carpet and velvet.

i desing it this way as some day i think we can have beside the crts one bright pr. that have much more cr. than early 3 chip 1280x1024 dlps or 1280x720 lcds.

seams now this time has come.

the hole discusion reminds my to hd bds vs dvd.

when people compare both with a 1280x1024 lcd 32" wide in 177" distance and than they say oh no difference dvd looks as good as blue ray:)

so look again where is your bottleneck may its not your pr.:)

In particular, in post #153, Craig Peer states he didn't think the Lumis CES demo was particularly bright at all, even though the screen seemed small to him.

Chris Dallas's flickr screen shots from the show, list the Lumis demo screen size as 109" wide at 2.35:1. That size would mesh with Craig's observation that the screen was not very big. The screenshots Chris posted on flickr do not look overly bright to me either.

I should restate that it didn't look overly bright to ME. However, I watch a dVision 1080p with two 250 watt bulbs burning at the same time - maybe my eyes are fried. I usually watch with around 18 foot lamberts coming off my screen. I'm throwing out a wild as# guess that I was seeing maybe 20 - 24 fl at CES. And we don't know how many hours were on the machine I was watching at CES. I never asked. But they did have it on low lamp / smallest iris I believe. The brochure does say 1200 - 3000 lumens adjustable.

Anyway, my screen brightness calculations for the Lumis for my theater with Alan's lowest brightness reading puts me at 37 foot lamberts at the lowest brightness settings on both my 106" wide Da-Lite HCCV 16:9 screen ( I consider a real world 1.0 gain ) and using the zoom method, about the same on my 118" wide 2.35:1 Firehawk G3 ( 1.25 or 1.3 gain, eh? ). Not outragously bright at the lowest setting, and a ND filter 0.3 (2x power, 1 f-stop) will bring it right down to 18.71 foot lamberts - right where I like it!!

But if you have a big screen, just raise the lamp output and let er rip!

Finally some numbers.

57 hours on the lamp.
D65
Aemc model CA813 light meter
Edit: Measurements were taken with dynamic black engaged.

2315 lumens hi lamp open iris
1768 " low lamp open iris
2094 " hi lamp closed iris
1640 " low lamp closed iris

Low lamp closed iris will work perfectly in my theater !!

I'm confused by CES reports re: the lumen output of this new unit from the demo on the 109" wide 2.35:1 screen.

In particular, in post #153, Craig Peer states he didn't think the Lumis CES demo was particularly bright at all, even though the screen seemed small to him.

Chris Dallas's flickr screen shots from the show, list the Lumis demo screen size as 109" wide at 2.35:1. That size would mesh with Craig's observation that the screen was not very big. The screenshots Chris posted on flickr do not look overly bright to me either.

In this thread, Alan Gouger posted the minimum lumen output of the new Lumis to be 1640 lumens at low lamp, iris closed, with 50 plus hours on the lamp. Assuming Sim2 used Stewart Studiotec g3 1.3 gain material for this CES demo, Carleton Bale's HT calculator pegs the actual ft lamberts at this 109" wide 2.35:1 screen to be 60 ft lamberts.

60 Ft lamberts seems pretty bright to me. Wouldn't this be very noticeable at the CES demo?

It would be very noticeable indeed.

Firstly, filters are commonly used in demos where space is restricted. Im not saying that's the case here.

Also I think you'll find the lamp hours would be way higher than Alans, possibly with a full fade of 30%. There are units that have been running demos for weeks.That may mean a min of 1100. Unit to unit variation may drop that too. Throw in a low gain screen too and were easily down to mid 20s.

A comment regarding the dynamic iris.
I have yet to turn off DB. It is indeed completely invisible. Because there are no side effects there's no reason to turn it off. You would never know its on...IIRC that comment echos gregr's Widescreen Review review of the DB system in the Planar 8150. That Dynamic Black implementation does not suffer from the primary DI artifact, brightness compression!!

Again, it is good that there is excitement again in the DLP camp.

I dont think there has been a lack of excitement tbh LG.

There is no shortage of genuine world class, reference level, machines in this forum. A number of companies such as Christie, Barco, Sim2, PD, DPI etc have been producing new machines that are in a totally different class to the typical J6P machine.

Admittedly, we dont have conga lines, Jihads and human sacrifices before a single person has actually seen one.:)

Chris your in Lions Den, tread carefully:D

Thanks,
JC

Joey,

although I enjoy a great movie at home from time to time I will admit I am not a home theater buff & very old school for that matter to boot. I like my toys yes, but they are a lot noisier than any of these PJ's ;)

I just tell it like it is from what my eyes see & if people can't accept my opinion I will not take offence. I've been in the film industry for 30 years and people who know me know what I'm about & also know I have no bias towards anything anywhere.

The only expensive PJ I've ever purchased was the JVC DLA-QXIG projector for $250K in 2003 but not for my home theatre, but for my business that I'm in and could never justify it's price for at home use. At that time it was as good as one can get but now we have propelled so far in so little time with so much more to choose from & better to boot. In today's plethora of products my eyes see very little difference from high end Christies to lower end JVC's and my true wait is really for laser PJ's, at that time I will invest again.

OT: In the meantime, today I've made another investment to add to my collection, a gorgeous 1970 Plymouth Roadrunner 440 six pack with the numbers matching, vitamin C orange, white interior, automatic with a floor console shift in museum condition. I'll have pictures up soon :) Sorry for the OT post but cars is my hobby & where I love to invest.

about cr.

please pay attention that the limitation is your room and NOT the pr.Please keep in mind that this is only true if people have lights on or light coming in. Even white walls don't reduce on/off CR unless there is other lighting. A white room can show the advantages of hundreds of thousands to 1 on/off CR and higher. The color of the room affects ANSI CR.

In short, a person does not need dark walls to benefit from high on/off CR. Lowered ANSI CR from light colored walls may decrease the number of cases where high on/off CR shows its benefit, but it doesn't get rid of them.

--Darin

IIRC that comment echos gregr's Widescreen Review review of the DB system in the Planar 8150. That Dynamic Black implementation does not suffer from the primary DI artifact, brightness compression!!


Thanks. I just read that review and Greg does have a great discussion of Dynamic black. It is copyrighted so I can't cut and paste it here.

Here is a very brief summary of Greg's explanation. Apparently Dynamic Black increases peak signal levels to compensate for the amount that the the iris will close. Greg claims that this is done so that overall image brightness remains proper. Some process by which the overall brightness of an image is used to determine the proper peak signal brightness. This process can result in some clipping, which Greg says is hard to see. Black levels are improved by a factor of 3.5. Intra image gamma is not changed by Dynamic Black and no dynamic gamma is used. Greg claims that this approach avoids brightness compression.

I wonder if Sim2's implementation is the same as or improved from Planar's.

I dont think there has been a lack of excitement tbh LG.

I guess maybe I was speaking for myself then. This projector makes me excited so someone throw some cold water on me. :D

"Apparently Dynamic Black increases peak signal levels to compensate for the amount that the the iris will close."

What if the signal is 100 IRE?

In any case, w/o local dimming, I don't see how any iris or control system can avoid brightness compression in a dim scene that contains areas of high IRE.

That's not to say the implementation isn't transparent, as the only way to know that it's there may be a comparison with a pj that has a native CR as high as the dynamic CR.

"Apparently Dynamic Black increases peak signal levels to compensate for the amount that the the iris will close."

What if the signal is 100 IRE?

That is always the trouble with DIs. I just wonder how much it will be noticed unless it is compared to a reference.

That's not to say the implementation isn't transparent, as the only way to know that it's there may be a comparison with a pj that has a native CR as high as the dynamic CR.

Not only is the DI transparent, combined with the look that a superb 3 chip DLP produces to begin with, it's gorgeous looking.

What gets me (in a good way) is how much great ANSI contrast and lots of light can fool ones eyes into seeing a hell of a nice image , except in very low APL. If the dynamic black can offset this single deficiency that I see in my HT 5000 it will be a big step up from other devices IMO.

Art

Thanks to you guys doing these early measurements, I've decided to move up from a c3x1080p to a Lumis, and reviews. The split box configuration really works much better in my application, and I really want the higher CR.

Now to find someone to buy a brand new c3x 1080p (sealed in box with warrantee) from me. Anyone got suggestions for a good place to sell one? I don't see many items in the Classifieds here in our price range.

Ive had the first viewing session and will start again soon with some challenging material. I will report later, but here's the first thoughts.

I'll save the flowery language BS for later, but this is certainly a very special machine. Alan isn't prone to exaggeration, and he didnt here either.

The image is incredible. The contrast is outstanding. The ANSI looks to be through the roof. No washout or hazing BS. I cant believe a unit this size is pushing out so much light.

This units MC is similar to my old HT5000. Zero over most of the panel, very minor at edge. Minimal CA. Sharp as a razor.

None of the new stuff comes at the expense of the very obvious 3 chip advantages. The color density and image solidity is there in spades. Image depth is great.

Steve Bruzonsky:

Don't you want to get one of these and have me test it :D. I promise to make another comprehensive spreadsheet with all it's measurments just like your C3X1080.

:D:D

"Apparently Dynamic Black increases peak signal levels to compensate for the amount that the the iris will close."

What if the signal is 100 IRE?

In any case, w/o local dimming, I don't see how any iris or control system can avoid brightness compression in a dim scene that contains areas of high IRE.

That's not to say the implementation isn't transparent, as the only way to know that it's there may be a comparison with a pj that has a native CR as high as the dynamic CR.

I agree with noah here, DB can not peform black magic even if it is implemented by Sim2. If the dynamic range is expanded too many times the native contrast brightness compression will follow. The native contrast is interesting beacause it gives a little clue to how far the dynamic range can be pushed. This is not the same as the dynamics of the picture which will depend on many other factors such as light output and ANSI cr.

A Why is the DB done by Sim2 so good?
1 It is fast and perhaps the memory and algorithms allow for greater look ahead than previous implementations.
2 The light controlling mechanism is before the dmd so with will not harm good qualities such as
- ANSI contrast
- brightness uniformity
- greyscale, a closing lens iris will treat different wave lengths differently.

B A possible explanation of how white can stay the same and black go down.
I think Sim2 has left some head room in driving the lamp. Enabling DB will allow the projector to drive the lamp harder when necessary to preserve the white level.

Also I must ask
Does Sony use hard drive motors for their lens iris. Using hard drive motors was part of the Eclipse concept that first was shown many years ago.

coldmachine
We are eager to learn more, please report. The fact that DB works so well for the Lumis is a sign to me that DB should be implemented by DCI projectors!

Steve Bruzonsky:

Don't you want to get one of these and have me test it :D. I promise to make another comprehensive spreadsheet with all it's measurments just like your C3X1080.

:D:D

If someone will reimburse me the $12K Maui family vacation, and buy my
C3X 1080 for near what I paid for it, I would consider it. HA!

Better yet, Scott, you should sell you HT5000 (didn't you recently buy a used one?) and get the Lumis. HA!

Scott, that was funny.

took a few shots of the C3X 1080here
screen is 400x171cm scope, microperforated, no gain.
the Lumis much higher brigthness would be welcome (for a client set up same screen size). the C3X 1080 is a bit less bright than the 720E.
note the digicam "peaks" the whites and flashies colors, the image is not as punchy.
i guess around 1000 lumens max / 68sq ft= 14.7FTL (max)
lamp in full 250 iris open. brigthness 50 contrast 67 color SMPTE D75. gamma user 2.2 sharpness 4 noise red 44. color 54.
one "needs" 1500-2000lumens with such a screen if you like punch
how could we live with 250lumens calibrated pj for so long ? or even 400 lumens?
SIM2 has a killer product with the LUMIS.

SIM2 has a killer product with the LUMIS.

You need a better camera (IMHO). ;)

But the last photo is passable. :)

You need a better camera (IMHO). ;)

But the last photo is passable. :)

It isn't just that those sorts of screen shots don't tell much since they tell almost as much about the camera and photographer perhaps more. I would like to see a close up of the panel alignment with clear pixels to give a reference.

Something like this of the lower right corner of my HT 5000...

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/Focus08a.jpg



Art

It isn't just that those sorts of screen shots don't tell much since they tell almost as much about the camera and photographer perhaps more. I would like to see a close up of the panel alignment with clear pixels to give a reference.

Something like this of the lower right corner of my HT 5000...

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/Focus08a.jpg



Art

That photo is a killer for sure. :)

I agree with noah here, DB can not peform black magic even if it is implemented by Sim2.



I think Sim2 has left some head room in driving the lamp. Enabling DB will allow the projector to drive the lamp harder when necessary to preserve the white level.


Yes that's what I was thinking too. I can't see how else they could eliminate BC.

A black level decrease of 3.5x without BC is a huge advancement and seems as though it would be equivalent to a 3.5x improvement in native on/off.

Better yet, Scott, you should sell you HT5000 (didn't you recently buy a used one?) and get the Lumis. HA!

Scott, that was funny.Thought you'd get a kick out of it :). Nope, no HT5k for me, yet.

Oh I think I am seeing the symptoms of another wave of collective obsessional behavior in this forum.

Be warned CM that your posts herein could provoke a more dangerous epidemic than the Dancing Plague of 1518 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_Plague_of_1518)

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/08/01/gallery/dancing-death-400x540.jpg

Discipline 007... ;)

You need a better camera (IMHO). ;)

But the last photo is passable. :)

:)
i need to calibrate my pana digicam.
the last shot looks punchy contrasty but it's not like that in real life last night.
the 1080 is not bright enough. the 720 did better but the Lumis as per Alan's measures is twice as bright as the C3X 1080 (and i dont even mention contrast) and is the one to get if one has a giant screen.
big screens= lots more constraints and requirements (super black room, lumens!)
the RS10 yesterday on a 220cm wide screen with client was as punchy as the screenshots. (800 lumens/27sq f= 29ftl ?). it was in iris full open, full lamp. close (340cm distance).
we NEED lumens guys....
so a new Lumis on a giant screen 400cm scope is about 2000/68=29FTL.

Oh I think I am seeing the symptoms of another wave of collective obsessional behavior in this forum.

Be warned CM that your posts herein could provoke a more dangerous epidemic than the Dancing Plague of 1518 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_Plague_of_1518)

Discipline 007... ;)

Peter, YOU urging restraint and discipline. :eek::eek:

The entire AVS universe is in danger of being swallowed by the vortex of hypocrisy. Are we all to be enveloped by the tsunami of sanctimony.:D:D

I will try to refrain from using such phrases as "The Barco Buster", "Video Viagra" or Art's multi level masterpiece... "Uber Kontrast".:D:D

Seriously, you make a very valid point.

This machine will, like any other, have flaws and compromises. Every machine does. The measure of most machines, and manufacturers, is how they address and manage those compromises. For example, I don't expect this machine, with a T series lens, to offer some of the clarity that will come from machines like the HT5k and the DCI unit I'll look at. Some people will see that it doesn't have a pro level zoom, so will loose light defendant on zoom position, but neither does anything near this price. Im sure. on critical viewing, I'll see some issues of my own. I imagine there will be some sort of compression somewhere.

I also wont be too swayed by the contrast numbers. We all know its important, but its certainly not the be all and end all. Im certainly not willing to indulge in the declaration of messianic qualities, that we see elsewhere, based on a CR number.

Recently I have had a very hard time trying to explain to some people that this single metric does not define the absolute quality of an image. I used the example of a Barco unit that provides on 2.5k. People declared that such a unit must be crap, the image could not be engaging, etc. On other occasions I've even saw people blatantly fabricate bogus results, and invent imaginary friends, to support their viewpoint. The impact of factors such as color fidelity, pixel noise, MTF, ANSI etc seem either misunderstood, ignored or willfully misrepresented.

I'll try to abstain from the infantile idolatry thats all too prevalent in some sections of AVS. Thankfully this forum is fairly free of that. The taste of Kool-aid makes me wretch.

Your point is well made.

I'm just excited that this forum has some projector action for a change. With that you do measurements, sit and look at it with varied softwarand from that you get performance. No need to be "trained" have double blind testing or have experience in Caribbean medicine to get it.

Art

I'm just excited that this forum has some projector action for a change. With that you do measurements, sit and look at it with varied softwarand from that you get performance. No need to be "trained" have double blind testing or have experience in Caribbean medicine to get it.

Art

You forgot to mention pictures.

I'm just excited that this forum has some projector action for a change. With that you do measurements, sit and look at it with varied softwarand from that you get performance. No need to be "trained" have double blind testing or have experience in Caribbean medicine to get it.

Art

Oh you mean like "Just shut-up and listen, I mean look, umm, ohh whatever!"

Having said that, this does not eliminate the potential for nefarious jitter from the HDMI audio entering into the HOST box, mixing with the video and corrupting the whole experience!

:D

The entire AVS universe is in danger of being swallowed by the vortex of hypocrisy. Are we all to be enveloped by the tsunami of sanctimony.:D:D


I'll try to abstain from the infantile idolatry thats all too prevalent in some sections of AVS. Thankfully this forum is fairly free of that. The taste of Kool-aid makes me wretch.



CM - Sometimes you remind me of a modern day Ignatius Reilly with writing like this. I can almost feel my valve slamming shut...:D:D

CM - Sometimes you remind me of a modern day Ignatius Reilly with writing like this. I can almost feel my valve slamming shut...:D:D

Would that make you one of the Confederacy of Dunces?:D:D

Ive taken some measurements and will post shortly.

Ok here we go. I cant wait any longer.
Here are some solid numbers. I ck and double ck. These numbers are very accurate.


17" L x 16" W x 7.5 H

Anyone disputing these numbers..I used a Stanley:)

17" L x 16" W x 7.5 H
Anyone disputing these numbers..I used a Stanley:)Surely it's a metric unit ;)

Surely it's a metric unit ;)

Indeed. Alan's Lumis is clearly broken. ;)

Ok here we go. I cant wait any longer.
Here are some solid numbers. I ck and double ck. These numbers are very accurate.


17" L x 16" W x 7.5 H

Anyone disputing these numbers..I used a Stanley:)

Was it a FatMax Xtreme? The sensitivity of lesser measurement devices can really skew the results...

Seriously though, these initial comments/impressions are extremely tempting. I may have to kick my 11s2 to the curb as well.

Alan, with your smaller screen size, are you using an ND or ND2 filter (sorry if this has been asked/answered-- didn't see it in the other 8 pages)? If so, which filter?; and as CM alluded to earlier, how much of a detriment has it been to the image?

Here is a very brief summary of Greg's explanation.
...
Intra image gamma is not changed by Dynamic Black and no dynamic gamma is used. Greg claims that this approach avoids brightness compression.It isn't clear to me what Greg is saying here. Using a lens DI to make it easier, dynamic gamma has to be applied before the iris or the gamma will have been changed after the iris, since the iris is reducing the light. For example, for a 20 IRE object, if the iris is shut down the only way to keep that object at the same level is to use a dynamic gamma somewhere in the projector to account for that (like 1/3 * 3 = 1). I suspect that Greg is talking about after the iris, meaning that the projector has a dynamic gamma that pretty much perfectly accounts for iris reduction to keep everything except video black and pixels that will be clipped at the same level. That does mean clipping instead of brightness compression, but clipping can be reduced by making sure the iris isn't too aggressive. Although that same approach can reduce brightness compression.
Yes that's what I was thinking too. I can't see how else they could eliminate BC.If they leave headroom with the lamp in order to allow the DI to close further and they get a native on/off CR improvement from that then I can understand that, but they are still limited to the native or static on/off CR of the current iris position.
A black level decrease of 3.5x without BC is a huge advancement and seems as though it would be equivalent to a 3.5x improvement in native on/off.To avoid BC and clipping they would have to have the iris open on things like some 90 IRE and some 100 IRE stuff on a black background, so wouldn't get as much intra-image CR in scenes like those as if they had a 3.5x improvement to native on/off CR, but it is possible they could get close as far as perception to people's eyes. I doubt it would be indistinguishable over an actual 3.5x improvement to native on/off CR (of course leaving all else equal), but it would be great if they have gotten it close.

--Darin

Ok here we go. I cant wait any longer.
Here are some solid numbers. I ck and double ck. These numbers are very accurate.


17" L x 16" W x 7.5 H

Anyone disputing these numbers..I used a Stanley:)

beuh ???

Darin,

I read Greg's article and he is saying no dynamic gamma at all. The only change is a simple multiplication of all levels to bring the highest level in the image to full white. The CR improvement is due entirely to the smaller aperture. What I don't understand is how this would increase the CR to 35,000:1. The other potential problem is uniformity. Anything that decreases stray light can cause a uniformity problem. Most, possibly all, of the illumination systems in these projectors rely on stray light to increase uniformity.

I may have to kick my 11s2 to the curb as well.

This was using the 11S2 as well right before the arrival of the Lumis. The 11S2 is no slouch.



Alan, with your smaller screen size, are you using an ND or ND2 filter (sorry if this has been asked/answered-- didn't see it in the other 8 pages)? If so, which filter?; and as CM alluded to earlier, how much of a detriment has it been to the image?

Brian

Most Blue Ray looks fine with the Lumis running wide open but I also have a server with content recorded off Satellite at low compression that falls apart at times so yes I am using an ND filter.
I have tried both a 4x and 8x. I prefer the 8x for my taste and screen size. I do not notice any hit to ANSI. I have the ND filter at an angle per odysseys advice below.
All measurements will be performed without any filters.

Schneider makes very high quality glass ND filters with high performance AR coatings. The trick is to use them at an angle of about 7 degrees to minimize back reflections.

Another option is a very low gain screen. Stewart can make matte gray screens in the 0.6 gain range. These would also help with retaining ANSI CR because of the low gain, although the lack of directionality cancels some of that.

Alan,

Could you please let us know what size / type / brand of ND filters you are using? How do they situate at an angle? Are they actually placed in the lens housing just superficial to the lens itself?

Thanks!


Kevin

Alan,

Could you please let us know what size / type / brand of ND filters you are using? How do they situate at an angle? Are they actually placed in the lens housing just superficial to the lens itself?

Thanks!


Kevin

Kevin you want one that is large enough to pass the entire image at an angle. Heres what I bought. Plenty big. I tape it to the projector.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/391200-REG/Hoya_040358_72_mm_Neutral_Density.html

I read Greg's article and he is saying no dynamic gamma at all. The only change is a simple multiplication of all levels to bring the highest level in the image to full white.To me a multiplication of all levels is a dynamic gamma in the projector, but that is somewhat semantics as it depends on whether we are talking about before the iris or after (at least for an iris after the DMD where one before just changes the semantics and math more).
The CR improvement is due entirely to the smaller aperture.I'm not sure which CR you are talking about here. Sequential, intra-image, or both. If sequential CR improvement was due just to the smaller aperture they wouldn't need to have a dynamic system for higher CR. There is the issue of more ANSI lumens, but as far as CR, the dynamic system should be creating more sequential CR than they could get for native on/off CR just by closing the iris. But maybe your sentence meant something different than the way I interpreted it.

There are some fairly simple tests which seem like they could answer much of this about what they are doing. Put up a 20 IRE window on a black background and measure the window portion of the image with the DI enabled and with it disabled. If they are basically the same and the iris has closed down then the signal would have had to have been increased inside the projector to compensate for the more closed iris. If instead the absolute black level is 3x lower and so is the 20 IRE window, then no gamma adjustments are being made inside the projector.

I didn't measure the Planar, but I think they multiply levels to get 20 IRE basically back where it would have been if the iris hadn't been shut down. It will be interesting to see if SIM2 is doing basically that.
What I don't understand is how this would increase the CR to 35,000:1.Any system that shuts the iris down could increase the sequential CR like that, but the key is largely whether you still get intra-image CR between things like 20 IRE and 0 IRE in darker scenes that is better than without the dynamic system. If not (there is no compensation to 20 IRE pixels at the imaging chips for the iris shutting down) then I don't think there would be much point to even doing a DI system other than marketing, at this point.
The other potential problem is uniformity. Anything that decreases stray light can cause a uniformity problem. Most, possibly all, of the illumination systems in these projectors rely on stray light to increase uniformity.I agree that this is an issue, but maybe they aren't being aggressive enough to be much of an issue.

--Darin

Alan,

If you get time could you please run an experiment with the Lumis. Put up a 20 IRE window pattern and switch between DI enabled and DI disabled to see if it looks any different and then measure the 20 IRE window with the DI on and off. I'm not worried about absolute values as much as whether they differ, so as long as the measurements were being taken from the same place it would be good enough.

I'm guessing that your meter would have trouble measuring the black level around the window or that would be interesting too.

Thanks,
Darin

Does this come with the satin bag?

Here are some MC shots. I cant get them quite as sharply focused as I would like, but you can see that the convergence is excellent. CA is very good too. I tried to get as close as was possible to allow the full pixel structure to be seen.

This one is dead center of screen

http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq176/microwave909/MCCentre.jpg

Right hand side

http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq176/microwave909/MCPixels.jpg

Left hand side

http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq176/microwave909/MCx.jpg

CM,
when I talked to Sim guys at CES about getting a perfectly converged Lumis projector they told me that this is a concern of 'old technology'.
The Lumix has software built in to converge it by user like a CRT.
Is this true? Was your convergence at of the box or is did you use the menu system to converge?
Thanks in advance.
Ash

Was your convergence at of the box or is did you use the menu system to converge?
Thanks in advance.
Ash

Thats OOTB.

I will be posting some more "Technical" shots later, I'll get some movie stuff posted soon.

CM,
Have you played with the convergence menus or can you confirm its existence for those who do not recieve perfectly converged Lumis?
Thanks again.
Ash

CM,
Have you played with the convergence menus or can you confirm its existence for those who do not recieve perfectly converged Lumis?
Thanks again.
Ash

Yes it exists. It has horizontal and vertical for each color.

No one will ever get a perfectly converged machine, and the MC adjustment wont make it perfect either. Numbers like 1/4 pixel can be considered outstanding. A fair bit of MC is actually needed to visibly impact an image. It is far more important on a DLP machine as they are inherently capable of greater sharpness.

CM,
Have you played with the convergence menus or can you confirm its existence for those who do not recieve perfectly converged Lumis?
Thanks again.
Ash

as far as i know the can shift it pixelwise but not in between.

cm the convergenze is 100% perfect.
think you like the unit:)

i will have my next week wednesday.