I have a system in a remote mountain location that includes:
-faroudja dvd
-theta laser discr-
-motorized lift
-VCR
-DirectTV
-Blulu ray Denon
-crestron
-key digital image switcher
-Mark Levinson, etc.

The voltage surges to 134 volts on a frequent basis.
I wanted to buy the Accuphase PS-1210 or PS-510 voltage regulators, but they are built such that they shut off after a 10% surge over 117volts, or about 129 volts, which would constantly power off the equipment.

Any recommendations on a high quality unit that would handle surges to 134 voilts??

Ask LGJ. He knows everything!!!@@@

:DAsk LGJ. He knows everything!!!@@@


Who is LGJ. Just got back from Maui. Can't think straight here in Arizona.
I meant LBJ. No. Not Obama. Not Bush. Not Nixon.

I meant "LJG"!!!. YEA!:eek:

LJD= Labatts Genuine Draft. After a few of those, you too can know everything.

I use these: http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=310
Input range for operation 90-140VAC

I agree with kal Kal Rubinson, you can also look at many other type of commercial/pro power products from tripp lite and the likes. Do not look for audiophile grade products and stay away from richard gray.

i have used ar-furman pro in multiple voltage areas and it has always worked like a champ.

The voltage surges to 134 volts on a frequent basis.
I wanted to buy the Accuphase PS-1210 or PS-510 voltage regulators, but they are built such that they shut off after a 10% surge over 117volts, or about 129 volts, which would constantly power off the equipment.

Any recommendations on a high quality unit that would handle surges to 134 voilts??

The PS Audio Premier shuts off at 140 volts on models with the most current upgrades. I have the same problem in my location. My voltage would surge to about 130 volts at certain times of day shutting off everything. PS Audio sent me a current Premier and it stopped doing that. Now on those occasions when the voltage gets around 130, I can keep on using my theater. The Premier keeps the voltage at 120 so none of my equipment "sees" the high voltage. However, I have found that I must use a small ultra quite PC fan on the Premier to keep the internal fans from turning on in this situation. I don't know how the Premier reduces voltage but it would appear that the process increases the temperature of the unit. At any rate, with the small fan, everything works perfectly without the much louder and very audible internal fan being turned on.

The spec sheet and user manual of the PS-510 doesn't claim to regulate beyond 120V, +/- 10% which is standard power quality deviation. Its beautiful looking.

You can get high quality regulation up to 150V with a APC LE 1200 for $45. What makes regulators more expensive isn't the regulation, a technology that is 30 years old, but the watts needed per regulator, so it has to be bigger and heftier.


I have a system in a remote mountain location that includes:
-faroudja dvd
-theta laser discr-
-motorized lift
-VCR
-DirectTV
-Blulu ray Denon
-crestron
-key digital image switcher
-Mark Levinson, etc.

The voltage surges to 134 volts on a frequent basis.
I wanted to buy the Accuphase PS-1210 or PS-510 voltage regulators, but they are built such that they shut off after a 10% surge over 117volts, or about 129 volts, which would constantly power off the equipment.

Any recommendations on a high quality unit that would handle surges to 134 voilts??

I have used BPT for several years to my satisfaction.

I have a system in a remote mountain location

WOW, Osama Bin Laden gets into HT.:D:D:D

... The voltage surges to 134 volts on a frequent basis...

Too bad that you can't "bottle" some of that surge energy for those big bass peaks! What is going on with the power up in your rarifed altitude?

Anyway, to your question. CVTs (Constant Voltage Transformers) will handle surges like these without shutting down. They are actually the most "bullet proof" type of surge protection that you can employ. Sorenson and other vendors make these in a wide variety of sizes and power ratings. Beware that they can get big and heavy and also can emit audible hum, so careful placement is often indicated. I would recommend reading the sorenson white papers on the subject.

Trouble free APC for a couple of years now.

Comedown to Highend power. i suggest these handful of company.
"Audience, Shunyata, Furman, Richard Gray and Balanced Power"

Hope this help.
ismewor

Comedown to Highend power. i suggest these handful of company.
"Audience, Shunyata, Furman, Richard Gray and Balanced Power"

Be careful most of those companies products are not certified and not tested.

Trouble free APC for a couple of years now.Yes. APC s-15 or s-20.

I think I will try one of the following:
1. Tripplite Model #: HTRL15UPS
2. APC S-15

Does anyone have any recommendations between these two? I am most concerned about audible noise emited from these, or are they silent?
Thanks.

For some reason money spent in this category has not equaled quality received for me. We have bought Furman in the past, as well as others $5K+ and they did not get the job done.

To me, part of the issue is the companies that market to high end audio guys vs companies that sell to industrial applications such as hospitals. As stated above, companies like Richard Gray are not UL or ULC approved, and technically, if their equipment causes a house fire (extreme example I know), your insurance company can bail on any payout since they have no UL approval.

Similarly, I see too many ads hyping up what their product does vs showing actual performance printouts and graphs.

Furman is sort of inbetween, they started out as a Pro PA company supplier, making surge protectors for effects racks, and moved into pro audio stuff. I have worked on some of their pieces, and it was fairly well built.

I'd look towards Tripplite, that has always been more of an industrial company rather than glossy finish boxes with blue LEDs on it. ;)

I'm glad no one mentioned Monster. I've taken apart and repaired a few of their pieces in the last 2 years, and to me they are a joke. BB sure sells a few of them though, which in itself speaks volumes as to the customer they are marketing to.

I think I will try one of the following:
1. Tripplite Model #: HTRL15UPS
2. APC S-15

Does anyone have any recommendations between these two? I am most concerned about audible noise emited from these, or are they silent?
Thanks.

For some reason money spent in this category has not equaled quality received for me. We have bought Furman in the past, as well as others $5K+ and they did not get the job done.
I have an s-15 in each of my houses. In one, it is in a rack about 15 feet away. In the other, it is in a rack about 5-6 feet from me. Neither is audible except when a relay clicks during an operation.

To me, part of the issue is the companies that market to high end audio guys vs companies that sell to industrial applications such as hospitals. As stated above, companies like Richard Gray are not UL or ULC approved, and technically, if their equipment causes a house fire (extreme example I know), your insurance company can bail on any payout since they have no UL approval.

Similarly, I see too many ads hyping up what their product does vs showing actual performance printouts and graphs.

Furman is sort of inbetween, they started out as a Pro PA company supplier, making surge protectors for effects racks, and moved into pro audio stuff. I have worked on some of their pieces, and it was fairly well built.

I'd look towards Tripplite, that has always been more of an industrial company rather than glossy finish boxes with blue LEDs on it. ;)

I'm glad no one mentioned Monster. I've taken apart and repaired a few of their pieces in the last 2 years, and to me they are a joke. BB sure sells a few of them though, which in itself speaks volumes as to the customer they are marketing to.
Curt, I've never seen a Policy Clause which allows an Insurance Co. to deny a claim because of the use of a non UL device in a home. Such a clause may exist, but I doubt it. I think the State Insurance Commissioner would come down pretty heavy on any company which tried to deny a claim on a non-existent exclusion. Regards, Norm

Kal,
Thank you for the information. My main concern was noise.
Does the S15 have a fan that can introduce any noise? This will be placed near the listener, in a very quiet room. Your advice on this would be greeatly appreciated.
Thanks

Most of the APC UPS units that I have run across utilize a fan that runs while operating from battery - very noticeable as well as Sonalert beeping. Other than that, they are pretty quiet. Most of these units are designed to trip on surge voltages that you are seeing, so you might be annoyed at the sound of the UPS triggering.

Curt, I've never seen a Policy Clause which allows an Insurance Co. to deny a claim because of the use of a non UL device in a home. Such a clause may exist, but I doubt it. I think the State Insurance Commissioner would come down pretty heavy on any company which tried to deny a claim on a non-existent exclusion. Regards, Norm
A table lamp is not UL certified.

Well that's interesting, it's something that I heard in passing. I used to use it as a sales pitch to get people to buy ULC devices rather than Taiwanese made disco lighting effects back when I was doing nightclub installs in the late 80s, and the local distributor was getting all effects ULC (OK, called CSA) approved before they sold them... at a surcharge of course.

I know that Canada does indeed have tougher laws than the US when it comes to things like grounding and ULC approval, so maybe it doesn't apply in the US, but I thought such a clause did indeed exist, if only in Canada maybe?

FYI, I just checked my Ikea desk lamp, and it is ULC approved.

FYI, I just checked my Ikea desk lamp, and it is ULC approved.
Perhaps all my table lamps are older than yours and their stickers have fallen off.

I'll bet they are from pre digital times, and give off that 'smoother' light, right? :)

Equi=tech. Have two of them!

Richard Gray is a big giant NO!

I'll bet they are from pre digital times, and give off that 'smoother' light, right? :)
They very well could be from pre-digital times; as far as smoother light, I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. They all use incandescent bulbs.

it was an analog/digital joke you twit! :D

it was an analog/digital joke you twit! :D
Twit? That's not a very nice thing to say.

Electrical equipment does not need to be UL listed to be safety certified. There are other testing organizations such as CSA, TUV, etc. It is the prerogative of the equipment manufacturer as to which standards organization they want to employ. I used to be involved with this for a company that I worked for years ago, so I know the procedure. We chose to go with CSA because they were more cost effective and their seal of approval was accepted almost everywhere (including LA County which can be a real stickler). My Furman AR15 Series II voltage regulator has a prominently posted TUV Rheinland certificate of compliance on its top cover.

http://www.tuv.com/us/en/index.html

An insurance company can refuse payment if they think electrically oriented fire damage was caused by negligence. For instance, if -you- install a socket in a table lamp and it catches on fire due to poor warkmanship, and they can establish that -you- did it and -you- didn't know what you were doing, then they can legally refuse payment. Doesn't matter whether the subject item was UL listed or not.

Back to power conditioning. Furman didn't invent power regulation but they certainly established the whole power conditioning aura with their AR-PRO line voltage regulator: delivers 120 VAC ±4% anywhere within capture ranges of 88 to 142 and 170 to 264 volts AC, 50/60 Hz.

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=AR-PRO

Just about all the touring companies use these and swear by them. About the best testimonial that you can get.

Yes, those Furmans do indeed work, I repaired two of them back when we were the Furman warranty depot and I got to see how they were made.

Well constructed. What they did was put a massive customs wound toroidal transformer in between the input line and the output AC receptacles. The transformer had a bunch of 1 volt taps, and TRIACS were used to turn those on and off. The input voltage was sensed, and the output of the transformer was switched between taps depending on how far off the input voltage it was to compensate.

Kal,
Thank you for the information. My main concern was noise.
Does the S15 have a fan that can introduce any noise? This will be placed near the listener, in a very quiet room. Your advice on this would be greeatly appreciated.
ThanksYes, they have fans. However, the only time I have, in 3-4 years of use, ever heard them was during the setup/check out tests. Even when switching to battery mode, the fan did not come on except when I did a test and ran my whole system on battery for more than 20mins. Surely, that is enough time to realize that the AC in the house is gone, accomplish system shut-down and attend to the bigger problem. Brief switches to battery power were silent save for one relay click.

EDIT: I apologize. I just went into the music room and pulled the plug on the S-15. The fan came right on but, in abou 3 seconds, reduced considerably in speed and noise level. That said, it only did that once in years of use and that was when there was a complete power outage for the house. We continued to watch the DVD until the power returned. Thankfully, that only took about 2 minutes.

Most of the APC UPS units that I have run across utilize a fan that runs while operating from battery - very noticeable as well as Sonalert beeping. Other than that, they are pretty quiet. Most of these units are designed to trip on surge voltages that you are seeing, so you might be annoyed at the sound of the UPS triggering.The Sonalert is defeatable.

Just curious why to stay away from the Richard Gray stuff?

..... Just curious why to stay away from the Richard Gray stuff?

Aren't they the company that promotes a power conditioner that is nothing more than an inductor placed across the line? Claim is that there is some sort of "flywheel" effect that improves the AC line voltage. Only problem with this theory is that energy is stored only for a half cycle of 60 Hz waveform as the line potential reverses every cycle. So you get 8.3 milliseconds of energy storage, which is manifest as a current source, and guess where it flows? Back to the point of minimum impedance which is the power source - not into your AV equipment where it is needed. You want to spend thousands of dollars for a power conditioning placebo?

Just curious why to stay away from the Richard Gray stuff?Here's one view:
http://www.stereophile.com/accessoryreviews/255/index.html

Thanks Kal, I have a Richard Gray 1200 (I have had it for about 4 years) but after reading what you all have to say I am thinking I should sell it and pick up a APC. I am sure the Richard Gray would be an easy sell as they are still very popular and I have APC products on all my computers and really like them.
Any suggestions on what vendors to look for an APC? Is there any advantage to the S20 over the S15?

Thanks :)

Thanks Kal, I have a Richard Gray 1200 (I have had it for about 4 years) but after reading what you all have to say I am thinking I should sell it and pick up a APC. I am sure the Richard Gray would be an easy sell as they are still very popular and I have APC products on all my computers and really like them. I must say that, while I have had a good experience with the APCs, I have absolutely no experience, positive or negative, with the Richard Gray products. All I did was relay a report from someone I know.

Any suggestions on what vendors to look for an APC? Is there any advantage to the S20 over the S15?From what I understand, the advantages of the S20 are primarily in the area of PC programming and network communications.

I must say that, while I have had a good experience with the APCs, I have absolutely no experience, positive or negative, with the Richard Gray products. All I did was relay a report from someone I know.

From what I understand, the advantages of the S20 are primarily in the area of PC programming and network communications.

The best part about the Richard Gray is that it gives me 12 plugs to hook all my equipment into, however the MC303 still gets plugged directly into the wall. If I can get 12 plugs and battery back up while just trading dollars which is what I suspect could happen if I sell the Richard Gray then I think I'm ahead and consider this to be an educational experience :D .

Get an APC and a couple of WalMart power bars. Job done. :D

Fastl:"An insurance company can refuse payment if they think electrically oriented fire damage was caused by negligence. For instance, if -you- install a socket in a table lamp and it catches on fire due to poor warkmanship, and they can establish that -you- did it and -you- didn't know what you were doing, then they can legally refuse payment. Doesn't matter whether the subject item was UL listed or not."
Not true, there is nothing about Policyholder negligence in the Section I (property coverage) of a Homeowners Policy. The only thing excluded on the part of the Policyholder are intentional acts. In fact all risks of physical loss are covered unless specifically excluded, IE: Earthquake, Flood, War, Vermin, wear and tear, & Law Enforcement (crack house,) among others of the like.
An example of this is leaving on your washing machine water valves, and having you hoses blow out. Clearly negligent, but fully covered. Regards, Norm

Smoking in bed. House catches on fire and burns down. Negligent? Yes. Covered by insurance? Yes.

Here's one view:
http://www.stereophile.com/accessoryreviews/255/index.html


http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/

I am impressed someone buys these things so the company grows and thrives. I guess in Lincoln's word, “You may fool all the people some of the time, you can even fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.”

The 'some' part must be a good sized market to tap. Caveat emptor. But, if you're happy for real or imagined performance it could be money well spent.

Thanks Kal, I have a Richard Gray 1200 (I have had it for about 4 years) but after reading what you all have to say I am thinking I should sell it and pick up a APC. I am sure the Richard Gray would be an easy sell as they are still very popular and I have APC products on all my computers and really like them.

That would be wise and a good idea to upgrade for a lot less money over the richard gray.

... Smoking in bed. House catches on fire and burns down. Negligent? Yes. Covered by insurance? Yes...

Speaking from experience? Some of you are obviously naive. Try applying the equivalent argumentation in court with a traffic ticket sometime and see what happens. Then, go burn your house down and try the same thing with your insurance company. Then come back and post your refutation.

I just purchased & installed the APC H15. My power is pretty stable so I can't speak from experience but the APC H15 has three auto voltage regulation ranges. The normal range is for 97-139 volts and regulates to 120v +- 10%. I'm using the narrow range for stable which is 102-132 with regulation to 120v +- 5%. It also has a wide range which is 92 - 145 v and regulates to 120v +- 15%. Since the unit is not battery, no fan. They also have H10 model which has same regulation capability but with 10 amps instead of 15 amps for the H15. Also, the H10 doesn't have the LCD monitoring meter for volt in/volt out or volt out/amp drawn, etc.
Lastly, if you don't mind silver color, the H10 and H15 are being discontinued for extremely low price. Check audioholics.com.

There's also guys a PS Audio Power Plant Premier. Full voltage regulation and 10 outlets. Specs seem good, but I haven't heard one though to be honest.

... Smoking in bed. House catches on fire and burns down. Negligent? Yes. Covered by insurance? Yes...

Speaking from experience? Some of you are obviously naive. Try applying the equivalent argumentation in court with a traffic ticket sometime and see what happens. Then, go burn your house down and try the same thing with your insurance company. Then come back and post your refutation.

You have no idea what you're talking about. A traffic ticket is a Vehicle Code Violation. With Insurance Policies it's Contractual Law. They have nothing to do with each other. Do police enforce insurance policies? An Insurance Company can only fulfill and enforce its contract. These contracts contain nothing about Policyholder negligence only intentional acts. They don't speak to the negligence issue at all.

The best part about the Richard Gray is that it gives me 12 plugs to hook all my equipment into, however the MC303 still gets plugged directly into the wall.

There's also guys a PS Audio Power Plant Premier. Full voltage regulation and 10 outlets.

The APC H10 (10 amp capacity) and H15 (15 amp capacity) have 12 outlet plugs and automatic voltage regulation. They don't have the battery backup but unless you have bulbs that must be cooled down, I not sure of the value of battery backup on audio/video equipment.

tyree

What I said was that some of you are naive, meaning that you take things for wrote off of a piece paper, like the terms of an insurance contract, thinking that your theoretical interpretations are gospel. Similar mentality applies to interpretation of other things like motor traffic law. I've seen more than one guy go waltzing into court spouting off the platitudes of traffic law, with the "how right I am" attitude only to get slapped with the fine in spite. Same attitude applies to your slam-bam-alcazam interpretations of home insurance contract law. If you cause damage and negligence can proved, you might very well discover that you receive significantly reduced payment and then are suddenly dropped by your insurance carrier because you are an insurance risk. Then, when you go out and try to obtain new insurance, they'll say sure, we'll insure you - it'll cost you a million bucks! Somehow, I don't think you "got it". Anyway, why don't we get off of the insurance thing and get back to power conditioning.

Anyone have experience with Surgex?

Just buy a couple Tripp-Lite LC-1800s and associated ISO Bar filters for power conditioning. They are less expensive than a lot of the special "AV" rated conditioners and it's very, very debatable whether those other conditioners work any better. I've used them for years on my equipment before all these other companies were even around. I trust them to my over $15,000 in AV equipment and have never had any failures or equipment damage in 30 years of home theater use. What's more, you can find them on ebay for a very reasonable price. I look for units that were used at conventions or other computer network or AV events. They use them for a few days to a week, and then want to sell them. ( Okay, now for all the comments about how the AV "boutique" products are "specially" designed, etc, etc.) :rolleyes:

....Anyone have experience with Surgex?

They have their following just as with every other vendor, but I always thought that they were a little overpriced for what you are getting. You can get equivalent series mode filtering from Furman and can also get the filtering with voltage regulation combined, as in the AR-15 Series II unit that I use.

Just buy a couple Tripp-Lite LC-1800s and associated ISO Bar filters for power conditioning. They are less expensive than a lot of the special "AV" rated conditioners and it's very, very debatable whether those other conditioners work any better.

Not sure how much a couple of LC-1800's and ISO bars would total up to be but with the closeout price of the APC H15 @ $150 and the APC H10 @ $130, they both are bargains. You get great surge protection plus voltage regulation from a well known and respected manufacturer.

I hope that you aren't running any sensitive radio equipment in the near vicinity of your APC regulation unit. I've got one of their Smart UPS units, which also includes the voltage regulator function (tap changer). Apparently isn't a very sophisticated design, because when it starts to boost you get a -lot- of RFI. After I got the Furman VR unit installed, I put the UPS on its regulated output to prevent its tap changer from operating. The Furman voltage regulator (also a tap changer) utilizes zero-cross switching and enough EMI filtering so that there is no significant RFI.

Equitech here. But some folks hate on the balance power concept.

However I've always wondered about Exact Power. I'm looking at Torus as well. They are transformer based like ET.

Neutral to Ground is a real buggar in digital electronics. It should measure BELOW 1 volt at all times or processors, DSPs, DACs etc can go nutso since they normally reference a 1 -3 volt DC to ground variance as an operting reference. In my day job (networking) we call that power conditioning or an isolation transformer.

Some are: TOROID (just a mile down the street), ONEAC and POWERVAR.

....Anyone have experience with Surgex?

They have their following just as with every other vendor, but I always thought that they were a little overpriced for what you are getting. You can get equivalent series mode filtering from Furman and can also get the filtering with voltage regulation combined, as in the AR-15 Series II unit that I use.

My understanding was that Furman does not have series mode surge protection at all, I thought SurgeX had the patent on that and I don't think they licensed that to Furman (though they have to some other companies). All Furman products that I know of are MOV.

Thanks Kal, I have a Richard Gray 1200 (I have had it for about 4 years) but after reading what you all have to say I am thinking I should sell it and pick up a APC. I am sure the Richard Gray would be an easy sell as they are still very popular and I have APC products on all my computers and really like them.
Any suggestions on what vendors to look for an APC? Is there any advantage to the S20 over the S15?

Thanks :)

+1

I too sold my RG (600s) and replaced it with a Rotel RLC 1040 (APC 15).

Funny, in Vancouver I see absolutely no need for any kind of conditioner. Our power, even in the rural areas where I live, is clean, outages are rare, and power spikes don't exist.

A bit of protection in case of a lightning strike (also rare) I'm all for, and I have a UPS on my computer simply so it won't crash if we do have an outage, but kudos to BC Hydro for doing a decent job of providing good power.

Funny, in Vancouver I see absolutely no need for any kind of conditioner. Our power, even in the rural areas where I live, is clean, outages are rare, and power spikes don't exist.

A bit of protection in case of a lightning strike (also rare) I'm all for, and I have a UPS on my computer simply so it won't crash if we do have an outage, but kudos to BC Hydro for doing a decent job of providing good power.

Do you have least use surge protection in your installations, Curt?

Lightning related issues should be uncommon in BC by this map, compare to FL USA, red is highest, violet lowest.

Warning, fairly large map, but good info:

http://thunder.msfc.nasa.gov/images/HRFC_AnnualFlashRate_cap.jpg


In many places in the USA too, power conditioning is uneeded.

Do you have least use surge protection in your installations, Curt?


No I do not. Not here at home where most stuff is on 24/7, not in the installations I do. The ONLY installation, ever, that received damage was a night club in about 1991 where a tree rubbed against the power lines and the neutral line lifted, sending up to 220 volts through everything. Most audio gear just blew the fuse, but the club ended up doing a full reno as a result of the damage. Not sure that any conditioning/protection equipment would have done much, and the club owners were so cheap that guaranteed they would not have sprung for protection up front anyways.

In places where lightning strikes are common, or where power isn't very clean, I'm all for protection. In Vancouver, I personally think it's a waste of money.

BTW, a lot of equipment comes stock with varistors and some surge protection built right into the units. The varistors short out in case of a spike, blowing the fuse. I have seen that once or twice through the shop here.

Chris - series mode protection is basically series inductive reactance (a series choke) followed by shunt capacitive reactance (a shunt capacitor), forming a lowpass filter. You can't patent that since it a technique that is well known to those who are skilled in the art. SurgeX has a patent on some tricky little technique they utilize in forming the series inductance, that's all. Furman products are definitely not just MOV, by a long shot. The Series II pro units, like my AR-15 have very substantial series mode protection. You should go browse around their website and get up to date on their product line. They also have a promotional (marketing) DVD that is pretty good, but the BS gets a little thick, sometimes.

In places where lightning strikes are common, or where power isn't very clean, I'm all for protection. In Vancouver, I personally think it's a waste of money.
No thunderstorms and lightning in Vancouver? Better sorry than safe?

No I do not. Not here at home where most stuff is on 24/7, not in the installations I do. The ONLY installation, ever, that received damage was a night club in about 1991 where a tree rubbed against the power lines and the neutral line lifted, sending up to 220 volts through everything. Most audio gear just blew the fuse, but the club ended up doing a full reno as a result of the damage. Not sure that any conditioning/protection equipment would have done much, and the club owners were so cheap that guaranteed they would not have sprung for protection up front anyways.

In places where lightning strikes are common, or where power isn't very clean, I'm all for protection. In Vancouver, I personally think it's a waste of money.

BTW, a lot of equipment comes stock with varistors and some surge protection built right into the units. The varistors short out in case of a spike, blowing the fuse. I have seen that once or twice through the shop here.

Curt,

Is your mains in Canada 110V or 240V?

Sean

110 volts. Where I live, on a flat piece of land in the Fraser Valley, lightning comes through once a year, but it never strikes, at least not in the 6 years I've been here. I grew up in Vancouver closer to the mountains, and lightning did strike almost every year, and I always looked forward to them, knowing that the TV shop I worked at would be full of repairs the next day.

I swear though, if we had $59 surge suppressors for sale at that TV shop, we wouldn't have sold any. People would take the chance and save the $59.

Ditto for 90% of the customers that I dealt with in the sound contracting days. I used to deal with a lot of night clubs, and they were some of the cheapest customers I've ever dealt with. No way would they want to spend $200-1000 on some surge protection. I would have gotten the 'the other company has a lower price, we've gone with their quote'.

Every time, and I mean EVERY time I go to the US, I absolutely marvel at the amount of money spent on a/v stuff. You do see some of that up here, but by and large, sound system installs go with the cheapest gear available. Here today, who cares about tomorrow.... but then again, a lot of the customers I dealt with weren't around either a couple of years down the road. :)

I am slowly getting back into sound contracting, and am applying some of the rules that I've learned here, which most likely reflected some of the work I did in the past as I didn't follow the rules.

1) Don't go in cheap on jobs.
2) Don't deal with customers that don't have money
3) Deal with customers that value the work you do, knowing that it won't be the low bid.

I've done about 3 jobs last year, all made profit, all were decent installs, and I took my time, knowing I quoted enough to take my time, rather than rushing the job with the cheapest gear available.

Not sure how much a couple of LC-1800's and ISO bars would total up to be but with the closeout price of the APC H15 @ $150 and the APC H10 @ $130, they both are bargains. You get great surge protection plus voltage regulation from a well known and respected manufacturer.
When I said a couple, I was being facetious. I use one LC-1800 for my main system, and an LC-1200 for my AV studio editing room. They both have ISO Bar filters built in, so actually separate ones are not necessary. However, I do use one extra ISO Bar on each conditioner as an extension plug in strip with extra protection. I purchased the LC-1800 for $65, LC-1200 for $52, and two 6 receptacle ISO Bars for $24. That's about $70 for one set up with excellent AC regulation, conditioning, and protection. Unlike a lot of the conditioners currently made, Tripp-Lite is essentially a regulated isolation transformer with filtering and surge protection. A lot of today's power conditioners use toroidal transformers, often in an auto transformer configuration. Arguably, I believe isolation from the line inherently helps a great deal in protecting equipment, whereas an auto transformer (toroids) do not inherently do this.

Equitech here. But some folks hate on the balance power concept.

Neutral to Ground is a real buggar in digital electronics. It should measure BELOW 1 volt at all times or processors, DSPs, DACs etc can go nutso since they normally reference a 1 -3 volt DC to ground variance as an operting reference. In my day job (networking) we call that power conditioning or an isolation transformer.

Some are: TOROID (just a mile down the street), ONEAC and POWERVAR.

I agree. ONEAC and POWERVAR (and Tripp-Lite) also have great products for condtioning, isolating, and neutral/ground issues. These products don't come in sleek boutique cabinets with blue lights. [Not that there is anything wrong with that;) ] But they are excellent at doing the job, and can be purchased for far less than retail if you shop around. I guess I'm speaking here for the guys that want power conditioning and protection at a reasonable price to protect gear they have worked hard to get and aren't concerned about product appearance. I install my conditioning equipment behind my equipment cabinets with power cords neatly routed to where I can get at them. I can also reach the master switch on the Tripp-Lite to kill power for working on the system. In the past, I used to have a couple of "low profile" horizontal surge units and always found it inconvenient to get at the back of those things when I wanted to add or replace equipment.
As far as data, phone, and TV signal lines go; I prefer totally separate filters and surge protection. I never thought it was a good idea to put sensitive signal lines inside the same electrical cabinet as line power. I mean, think about it. Don't we try and move signal cables as far away from AC as we can to reduce the chance on noise infiltration? But that's another debate.

Equipment that requires power "conditioning" must be rather poorly designed or made.

Equipment that requires power "conditioning" must be rather poorly designed or made.

This is apparently the hallmark of "high end" electronics.

Thankfully, broadcast gear is not "high end". Their power supplies do as they're designed to do.

As far as data, phone, and TV signal lines go; I prefer totally separate filters and surge protection.

What specifically do you recommend?

I put a gas discharge at the house entrance for my phone/DSL line, and, for my D* and OTA antenna feeds use the standard "coax in/out" connectors on Belkin in-room devices.

Would love to be able to find a really high quality device that I could use in line right in front of my highest dollar equipment.

Several of my neighbors have had their equipment fried from nearby lightning strikes propagating through phone and/or TV lines ... nails their burglar alarms, some of their TVs, etc.

...Equipment that requires power "conditioning" must be rather poorly designed or made...

Bob - not very many pieces of consumer AV equipment utilize autoranging power supplies like your QSC amps. Even big expensive turnkey items, like 50 kW broadcast transmitters, require power conditioning (voltage regulation).

...Equipment that requires power "conditioning" must be rather poorly designed or made...

Bob - not very many pieces of consumer AV equipment utilize autoranging power supplies like your QSC amps. Even big expensive turnkey items, like 50 kW broadcast transmitters, require power conditioning (voltage regulation).

Agreed...

Bob - not very many pieces of consumer AV equipment utilize autoranging power supplies like your QSC amps. Even big expensive turnkey items, like 50 kW broadcast transmitters, require power conditioning (voltage regulation).

But more and more of them are. The wall wart that comes with a DVDO scaler (and a Lumagen if I'm not mistaken) will auto switch from 100to 240 volts.

I also disagree with the terminology above. Power conditioning done at the AC level, before the power gets to the items in question can, but doesn't always include voltage regulation. 'Conditioning' to me means the removal of noise and spikes on the AC line.

Virtually all electronic equipment uses some form of internal voltage regulation. All low level preamps, DACs, etc use a stable, filtered power supply. Older amps like the Phase 700B use an unregulated supply to drive the output transistors, but the predrivers even in that 70's technology power amp use zener diode regulation to maintain stability. A +/- 10 volt AC swing/sag/surge should not be heard while listening to the amp.

WOW Phase Linear. Thats going back in time.

You know I even like the word linear. It reminds me of my old CB days.

I repaired literally dozens of them over the years. With Vancouver being so close to Seattle where they were made, lots of homes and pro audio companies used them. I even installed a used one in my first 'big' installation ($25K) at a night club. It lasted forever, but then someone yanked it and put in a Peavey. Heretic! :D

Older amps like the Phase 700B use an unregulated supply to drive the output transistors, but the predrivers even in that 70's technology power amp use zener diode regulation to maintain stability. A +/- 10 volt AC swing/sag/surge should not be heard while listening to the amp.
Phase Linear 700B. . . . ergo my ID.:) I still have mine along with a 2000 preamp. Used it until 2 years ago when I bought my Boston AVR7120. The only receiver I've used so far that comes close to the thunderous power the 700B can crank out. I drove a set of B&W DM603 mains along with a pair of passive subs set at 4 ohms. That amounted to about 2.6 ohms in the bass region that the 700B saw for a load. It took it with no problem. I used an older Kenwood multichannel amp for the rear and side speakers. Also why I used. a power conditioner. I also have a Phase Linear 400 that needs work. It got fed some nasty noise once from an old Dynaco preamp I hadn't used in years and took out the front end.:( I should have checked that Dyanaco out first on an old Sanyo 35 watt POS I have for that purpose.

like 50 kW broadcast transmitters, require power conditioning (voltage regulation).

Voltage regulation of the three incoming phases with motor driven variacs is common, agreed. Do not confuse this with "power conditioning" though.

BTW, an NEC 50KW air cooled UHF transmitter does have autoranging power suppies.

PHase, do you happen to live in the Seattle area? I know the former service manager for Phase Linear that was there until the end, and he now rebuilds Phases in his garage to better than factory specs. If you're in Canada, I can do it too.

PM me, I'll put you in touch.

THe only negative I ever read was in some old 1976 Stereo Review mag that said the Phase 700 did a poor job of driving some electrostatics, as the Phase had a high output impedance. Apparently a much lower power Crown DC 300 did a better job driving them.

That is one test I'd like to see personally, I've never had an issue with Phases.

...Equipment that requires power "conditioning" must be rather poorly designed or made...

Bob - not very many pieces of consumer AV equipment utilize autoranging power supplies like your QSC amps. Even big expensive turnkey items, like 50 kW broadcast transmitters, require power conditioning (voltage regulation).

QSC amps don't have autoranging power supplies and still don't require power "conditioning."

Of the big expensive turnkey items I've been involved with, like 180 kW UHF transmitters and 10 to 50 kW FM transmitters, very few of the UHF systems had power regulation and none had power "conditioning."

I also think that if you've built an amplifier that responds to a $500 power cord, you've not done a particularly good job, assuming that it actually responds to a $500 power cord ;)

As far as data, phone, and TV signal lines go; I prefer totally separate filters and surge protection.

Do you have any specific recommendations? What do you use for TV, phone, and data lines?

...QSC amps don't have autoranging power supplies and still don't require power "conditioning....

Must have confused QSC with Chord or Halcro. QSC needs to update their specs anyway. They don't even spec the actual line voltage operating range on their data sheet! Most of high-end power amplifier manufacturers recommend running their amplifiers direct from the wall socket to obtain the minimum line impedance. All well and fine until you get a good lightning surge come down the line and damage the amplifier - had the output transistors blown in my Bryston amplifier that way.

...I also disagree with the terminology above. Power conditioning done at the AC level, before the power gets to the items in question can, but doesn't always include voltage regulation. 'Conditioning' to me means the removal of noise and spikes on the AC line...

Here we go again. In the professional (real) world, power conditioning generally means what I called it - voltage regulation. Removal of line noise is "filtering" and spike removal is generally referred to as TVS (transient voltage suppression). Webster defines conditioning: "to put into proper state for work or use", and gives as an example - Air Conditioning. We all know that an air conditioner takes in air and -regulates- its output temperature. A UPS is not a conditioner by virtue of it being a power -source-. If you study the product lines of the major players, like Liebert and Powerware, I think that you'll find that their use of the term power conditioning generally parallels mine. If you and few others on AVS forum want to create your own slang definitions of technical terms, then that's your prerogative.

...Of the big expensive turnkey items I've been involved with, like 180 kW UHF transmitters and 10 to 50 kW FM transmitters, very few of the UHF systems had power regulation and none had power "conditioning...

You must be living in Curt's back yard, because power conditioning (480V 3-phase voltage regulation) is generally the case in almost all big transmitter installations. Here's a picture of a -typical- installation (Superior Electric power conditioning at WBBR, 1130 AM NYC, 50 kW):

http://hawkins.pair.com/wbbr.shtml

fastl- I'll confer with my buddy that has worked for years at BC Hydro regarding terms. I might be out of whack, didn't mean to start an argument, but in any electronic circuit I've worked with, a voltage regulation circuit has never been called a 'conditioner'

Bob, what you say?

That makes three people: you, your buddy and Bob. Not exactly what I would call a consensus. I wasn't referring to a "voltage regulation circuit". I was talking about a piece of -equipment-, placed in series with the incoming powerline, which provides conditioning. It could employ a voltage regulation circuit, a CVT (ferroresonant transformer) or other technology.

You wouldn't put an air filter in your window and call it an air conditioner, anymore than you would put a line filter in series with the powerline and call it a power conditioner. Unfortunately, the "power conditioning" term has been so widely perverted by the marketing quacks that are selling AC related equipment that you can't see the forest for the trees. The world seems to be full of "power conditioning experts" that throw this terminology around without looking closely at the true meaning of the words.

Power is defined as the rate of energy flow. In AC power systems, the energy flow (power) is the 50 or 60 Hz component. Powerlines, being metallic wires, can also carry other things beside the power, including transient voltage spikes, RF/EMI waveforms and even small amounts of DC. These other components are generally considered to be "foreign potentials". When you are dealing with the these, you are not dealing with the power, per-se. Hence, a TVS or series filter does nothing to change or modify the power waveform (50/60 Hz) and therefore provides no conditioning. You could very well experience a problem causing line voltage sag at the same time your TVS was clipping off a spike or your filter was attenuating RFI and your AC line voltage (obviously) wouldn't be conditioned. Get it?

OK, now we can agree. :D

You wouldn't put an air filter in your window and call it an air conditioner, anymore than you would put a line filter in series with the powerline and call it a power conditioner. Unfortunately, the "power conditioning" term has been so widely perverted by the marketing quacks that are selling AC related equipment that you can't see the forest for the trees. The world seems to be full of "power conditioning experts" that throw this terminology around without looking closely at the true meaning of the words.
So by your logic, we shouldn't call CD transports CD transports since they don't transport CDs anywhere. It's just a "term that has been so widely perverted by the marketing quacks that you can't see the forest for the trees." The proper term should be something like CD reader. I would suggest that the names for things do not always have to be purely descriptive. The term power conditioner is just fine to describe generally a class of products that provide surge protection and power line filtering even if they don't also provide AC voltage regulation or AC wave form correction. The former is called a voltage regulator and the later is called a voltage regenerator, though I'm sure punctilious electrical engineers would find something wrong with those names as well.

...I'm sure punctilious electrical engineers would find something wrong with those names as well...

Well, you're obviously punctilious since you are finding fault with my names.

...The term power conditioner is just fine to describe generally a class of products that provide surge protection and power line filtering even if they don't also provide AC voltage regulation or AC wave form correction...

It's not fine if the name does not clearly differentiate or clearly define what the so-called power conditioner is actually doing. Sometimes known as the art of obfuscation. Some of these conditioners cost a lot of money and essentially don't do anything. Pretty good racket, if you ask me. Why do you object? Are you in the business?

It's not fine if the name does not clearly differentiate or clearly define what the so-called power conditioner is actually doing.
If not power conditioner, what would you suggest?

Some of the brand names and products mentioned in this thread either don't do anything substantial or can't condition power in the manner than intexltd was seeking, but they are all being called generically "power conditioning". One of brands mentioned claims to provide surge suppresion, but that is a crock, since it can only provide TVS. A surge is a temporary elevation of the 50/60 Hz line voltage, not a transient spike.

Basically, I was trying to help things out by differentiating between power conditioning the function and "power conditioning" the marketing term, although it probably went over everyone's head. That's the basic problem with nominalization. I thought it was amusing to get lectured (by the peanut gallery) to not call voltage regulation power conditioning, when in fact that is historically where the power conditioning term came from. Anyway, you folks can call it whatever you want, because that is the way things seem to work up here on AVS forum. It's not worth quibbling over.

ps - my Sony compact disc unit (CDP-D500) is called a "compact disc player", not a CD Transport. If you look through Sony catalogs and literature, the equipment -always- is referred to as a compact disc player. Sony was co-inventor of the compact disc with Philips, and what they say is gospel. I also have a number of Stereophile review articles on this type of equipment, and SACD, DVD-A and CD equipment always seem to be referred to as "players", not "transports". When I load my "player", it does "transport" the disc to the inards of the player, to drop the disc onto the playback spindle.

ps - my Sony compact disc unit (CDP-D500) is called a "compact disc player", not a CD Transport. If you look through Sony catalogs and literature, the equipment -always- is referred to as a compact disc player. Sony was co-inventor of the compact disc with Philips, and what they say is gospel. I also have a number of Stereophile review articles on this type of equipment, and SACD, DVD-A and CD equipment always seem to be referred to as "players", not "transports". When I load my "player", it does "transport" the disc to the inards of the player, to drop the disc onto the playback spindle.
You obviously have no idea what a CD transport is. It is not a CD player. A CD player has a built in DAC and outputs an analog signal. A CD transport does not have a built in DAC and outputs a digital signal to an external DAC or surround sound processor. If you are so unaware of the types and names of audio components, it is no wonder you are having such a difficult time with what the term power conditioner means in an audio system context.

Are you for real buddy? :confused: You sound like a teenager who just picked up HiFi as a hobby. :cool:


Some of the brand names and products mentioned in this thread either don't do anything substantial or can't condition power in the manner than intexltd was seeking, but they are all being called generically "power conditioning". One of brands mentioned claims to provide surge suppresion, but that is a crock, since it can only provide TVS. A surge is a temporary elevation of the 50/60 Hz line voltage, not a transient spike.

Basically, I was trying to help things out by differentiating between power conditioning the function and "power conditioning" the marketing term, although it probably went over everyone's head. That's the basic problem with nominalization. I thought it was amusing to get lectured (by the peanut gallery) to not call voltage regulation power conditioning, when in fact that is historically where the power conditioning term came from. Anyway, you folks can call it whatever you want, because that is the way things seem to work up here on AVS forum. It's not worth quibbling over.

ps - my Sony compact disc unit (CDP-D500) is called a "compact disc player", not a CD Transport. If you look through Sony catalogs and literature, the equipment -always- is referred to as a compact disc player. Sony was co-inventor of the compact disc with Philips, and what they say is gospel. I also have a number of Stereophile review articles on this type of equipment, and SACD, DVD-A and CD equipment always seem to be referred to as "players", not "transports". When I load my "player", it does "transport" the disc to the inards of the player, to drop the disc onto the playback spindle.

...You obviously have no idea what a CD transport is. It is not a CD player. A CD player has a built in DAC and outputs an analog signal. A CD transport does not have a built in DAC and outputs a digital signal to an external DAC or surround sound processor....

Can you list the number of "transports" by brand name and model number on the market? Because I don't recall anything like this as being marketed as a product that anyone would buy, although in your (irascible) mind, they probably exist somewhere. Tell your cousin (AndrewChen) to get lost!

ps - the topic of this thread is about power conditioning, not insurance policies nor is it about CD Transports/Players. So if you two punks want to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, which seems to be a fairly widespread and annoying practice on AVS forum, you're going to be doing it without my participation.

Can you list the number of "transports" by brand name and model number on the market? Because I don't recall anything like this as being marketed as a product that anyone would buy, although in your (irascible) mind, they probably exist somewhere. Tell your cousin (AndrewChen) to get lost!

Good grief. Virtually every high-end audio company makes a CD transport. Check out Audiogon, which has an entire category for CD transports, for a sampling:

http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl?dgtltran&1&ctg&st1

I think you need to pick another forum in which to participate. You are out of your element here in the Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000) forum. Most (but not all) of us here actually know what we are talking about, which is why there is no confusion about what a power conditioner is and what it does and does not do.

Do you have any specific recommendations? What do you use for TV, phone, and data lines?
Hi Bruce. Sorry it took awhile to reply. I was out of town for a few days. Besides using a Tripp-Lite LC-1800 0r LC-1200 AC power conditioner and an extra ISOBar or two, I use these separate components for signal protection.
For separtate data/phone/cable and power conditioning equipment I have used the following:



L-com AL-DSLJW at House Entrance
Tripp-Lite DNET1 & DTEL2 individual protectors at HT equipment.
APC Protectnet cable and TV protectors
Arc Electric lightening block protectors on incoming Cable, OTA, Satellite
And I also have used a modified Tripplite HT1010SAT3 surge suppressor with hot and neutral lines removed just for signal protection.( No Line power in)
Coax ground blocks and inline gas discharge at incoming cable, OTA, and satellite coax. http:///www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=210MF75F22521

There are also some products to pick and choose from at SummitSource.com
In my opinion, it's best to provide the majority of protection at the incoming lines and cable to your house and install these protection devices as close to your main breaker panel as possible for proper grounding. In addition, I install individual inline protectors/filters at the equipment, such as the Tripp-Lite DNET1 and DTEL2, and insert these near the HT equipment point. I place the L-Com boxes, grounding blocks, etc at a small mounting panel next to the house circuit breaker. It also makes it a good place for cable distribution at that point. If there is need for more than one incoming phone, cable, satellite, etc; some of these companies have multi port devices or use several individual units. Most of this stuff is not very large so can be neatly installed on a relatively small pane or cabinet of your choosing.

...QSC amps don't have autoranging power supplies and still don't require power "conditioning....

Must have confused QSC with Chord or Halcro. QSC needs to update their specs anyway. They don't even spec the actual line voltage operating range on their data sheet! Most of high-end power amplifier manufacturers recommend running their amplifiers direct from the wall socket to obtain the minimum line impedance. All well and fine until you get a good lightning surge come down the line and damage the amplifier - had the output transistors blown in my Bryston amplifier that way.

...I also disagree with the terminology above. Power conditioning done at the AC level, before the power gets to the items in question can, but doesn't always include voltage regulation. 'Conditioning' to me means the removal of noise and spikes on the AC line...

Here we go again. In the professional (real) world, power conditioning generally means what I called it - voltage regulation. Removal of line noise is "filtering" and spike removal is generally referred to as TVS (transient voltage suppression). Webster defines conditioning: "to put into proper state for work or use", and gives as an example - Air Conditioning. We all know that an air conditioner takes in air and -regulates- its output temperature. A UPS is not a conditioner by virtue of it being a power -source-. If you study the product lines of the major players, like Liebert and Powerware, I think that you'll find that their use of the term power conditioning generally parallels mine. If you and few others on AVS forum want to create your own slang definitions of technical terms, then that's your prerogative.

...Of the big expensive turnkey items I've been involved with, like 180 kW UHF transmitters and 10 to 50 kW FM transmitters, very few of the UHF systems had power regulation and none had power "conditioning...

You must be living in Curt's back yard, because power conditioning (480V 3-phase voltage regulation) is generally the case in almost all big transmitter installations. Here's a picture of a -typical- installation (Superior Electric power conditioning at WBBR, 1130 AM NYC, 50 kW):

http://hawkins.pair.com/wbbr.shtml

Tell me what specs need updating.

Power "conditioning" is a fascinating term because it invites much imagination about what takes place, all the laundering and filtering and calisthenics and all.

Some big transmitter facilities use voltage regulation--I remember visiting WTXX's facility in Waterbury, Conn., and it had several Hipotronics motorized regulators controlling the voltage to the beam supplies (the chief didn't like the regulators, though, because the motor brushes kept burning out; I think he eventually removed them). But that was the exception, rather than the rule. I've never seen any that use power "conditioning," though you seem to equate it with voltage regulation.

Hi I use these separate components for signal protection.

Thanks! Very helpful. Now I just have to find something that will work with the bidirectional satellite (D*) antenna feeds.

I'd suggestion "conditioning" on the following:
Source components - CD Players, DVD or BR players - and Surround Processors.

Amps, well that's a tough call. If they are Class A or AB you better have a big transformer and current reserve. If they are Class D or H (pro amp world) then not so much.

Thanks! Very helpful. Now I just have to find something that will work with the bidirectional satellite (D*) antenna feeds.
Some of the Tripp Lite products have the bandwith and protection for D* dish feeds. I use the mentioned modified Tripp-Lite HT1010SAT3 as well as an older TPL810NET unit for D* protection. Otherwise, I use the ground blocks at the house entrance for additional incoming protection.

I skimmed through part of the thread... excuse me if I missed anything critical.

The Liebert GXT2 series of UPS would do exactly what you want.

Lets talk about voltage regulation for a moment:

Most of the APC units and lower end UPS systems (cyberpower, etc) use Buck/Boost technology to regulate the output voltage of the unit. I.E. they use transformers and/or sinewave manipulation to change the RMS voltage if it drifts out of a narrow range. The UPS portion (inverter running on battery) usually kicks in if the voltage goes lower than 90 or so or above 130 or so. So the fact is that between 90 and 130 you can have some fairly poor power quality. Only the very best APC units have a true sine-wave output when on battery. Computers and their switch mode power supplies could care less about the quality of the output waveform. They just look for peaks and valleys to get a basic RMS switching signal and voltage.

The GXT2 is a different animal. It is a On-line UPS. The AC mains power the DC bus, the DC bus charges the batteries and ALWAYS powers the processor regulated inverter! There is no Buck/Boost for input power fluctuations, the output sinewave and RMS voltage are tightly regulated. If and when AC mains power is lost, there is no "switchover" or change in output waveform as the inverter has been powering the load from the DC bus all along. The batteries merely stop getting charged.

These units DO have fans.. that may or may not be an issue for some of you.

I would also add that the Liebert TVSS devices are top notch...

Powerware 9120 and have someone replace the fan with a quieter one.

I would also add that the Liebert TVSS devices are top notch...

Liebert units designed for Data center use (co-location facilities) tend to be very good... OTOH, there are quite a few other manufactures' units with better actual performance than the Liebert units folks here would purchase for use at a residence.

AV doogie...

are we talking about UPS or TVSS?

AV doogie...

are we talking about UPS or TVSS?

Mostly TVSS....

My 2 cents:

For home use on a 200A or less split phase panel, it does not matter. Anything in the consumer arena is going to be MOV based. They are all pretty much the same. The better units will have higher quality MOVs that are sorted and matched to equally distribute swells and surges so as not to wear out a single MOV faster then the others. The lower end Liebert TVSS (LPL, LPM) are significantly better than the similarly rated offerings from SquareD, etc. However, they (the Liebert units) cost significantly more.


The higher end units use MOVs in conjunction with avalanch diodes to clamp both rapid and long duration transients and swells. The top of the line units provide active tracking filters and tightly matched components. That said, homeowners insurance to cover the HT equipment (no matter how expensive) is likely going to cost much less than a high end TVSS that will protect that equipment from anything under the sun.

I.E. just about any quality TVSS is enough for home use. A datacenter is a different animal becuase down time due to loss is the worry, not the replacement cost of the equipment. Our worry in a home is loss of equipment. A quality matched MOV TVSS is good enough and will handle most transients. Purchasing "more" TVSS quickly hits the diminishing returns calculation....

Hi Curt,

I agree with you. However, electronics are even more delicate today compared to when I worked with discrete transistors. So, one need weigh the cost of a good SPD over the loss of a device. I would think in the audio a lot of devices are power related and more hardy.

I recently had a new digital panel meter die from a static discharge this winter. My older reliable panels were arrays of discrete components tied to several discrete ICs, this new one is just an LCD with few surface mounts devices. I found a replacement for $5, but its not the cost of the part that is a pain, for a consumer it would be installing it.






No I do not. Not here at home where most stuff is on 24/7, not in the installations I do. The ONLY installation, ever, that received damage was a night club in about 1991 where a tree rubbed against the power lines and the neutral line lifted, sending up to 220 volts through everything. Most audio gear just blew the fuse, but the club ended up doing a full reno as a result of the damage. Not sure that any conditioning/protection equipment would have done much, and the club owners were so cheap that guaranteed they would not have sprung for protection up front anyways.

In places where lightning strikes are common, or where power isn't very clean, I'm all for protection. In Vancouver, I personally think it's a waste of money.

BTW, a lot of equipment comes stock with varistors and some surge protection built right into the units. The varistors short out in case of a spike, blowing the fuse. I have seen that once or twice through the shop here.

I think a key issue with the discussion is the term "power conditioning" is not defined. Likewise for the word 'surge' in power problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_conditioning


Tell me what specs need updating.

Power "conditioning" is a fascinating term because it invites much imagination about what takes place, all the laundering and filtering and calisthenics and all.

Some big transmitter facilities use voltage regulation--I remember visiting WTXX's facility in Waterbury, Conn., and it had several Hipotronics motorized regulators controlling the voltage to the beam supplies (the chief didn't like the regulators, though, because the motor brushes kept burning out; I think he eventually removed them). But that was the exception, rather than the rule. I've never seen any that use power "conditioning," though you seem to equate it with voltage regulation.

In a nutshell, any reasonably priced device, be it MOV, Avalanch Diode, or Gas Discharge Tube based is not going to do will against a direct strike or a lifted neutral that causes an overvoltage. That is what insurance is for. In the home environment, we want a TVSS to handle the neighbors arc welder, grid strikes and swells, and other similar events.

As I eluded to, most of the devices that cost $1500 or less are simply MOV based. They differ in the quality of the MOVs. The better quality devices have MOVs that are computer matched to provide even distribution of the clamped current. This allows the MOVs to live longer before needing replaced and allows more reliable clamping of large transients (I.E. it prevents cascading MOV failure during a large transient).

Couple a decent whole house TVSS with a true double conversion UPS and you have a pretty damn good power source for your HT equipment. Do you need active tracking filters and massive isolation transformers? My .02 is no, but then again plenty of folks purchase pole pigs and other heavy duty hardware because they feel it is worth their investment to put a sub station in their basements :)

As I eluded to, most of the devices that cost $1500 or less are simply MOV based. They differ in the quality of the MOVs. The better quality devices have MOVs that are computer matched to provide even distribution of the clamped current. This allows the MOVs to live longer before needing replaced and allows more reliable clamping of large transients (I.E. it prevents cascading MOV failure during a large transient).



While I agree with you basically- the parts used in the TVSS unit can make a difference, where the biggest differences occur is in the TVSS design and implementation.

1) Does the design allow for short lead lengths to the TVSS device?
2) Does the internal circuitry and attached leads provide for a very low let-through voltage?
3) Are the internal components 'potted' or provided with consideration for heat sinking to ensure superior life expectancy of the internal devices?
4) Do you have some sort of indication on the TVSS device to determine if the circuitry is damaged or compromised?
5) Does the unit meet or exceed the UL and IEEE ratings for TVSS or SPD devices for the type of installation you are considering?

While I agree with you basically- the parts used in the TVSS unit can make a difference, where the biggest differences occur is in the TVSS design and implementation.

1) Does the design allow for short lead lengths to the TVSS device?
2) Does the internal circuitry and attached leads provide for a very low let-through voltage?
3) Are the internal components 'potted' or provided with consideration for heat sinking to ensure superior life expectancy of the internal devices?
4) Do you have some sort of indication on the TVSS device to determine if the circuitry is damaged or compromised?
5) Does the unit meet or exceed the UL and IEEE ratings for TVSS or SPD devices for the type of installation you are considering?

I would not use a TVSS that did not meet or exceede any of the above criteria. That is why I prefer to spend a little extra on the Liebert units. I have found very few units that cost less and still provide the same feature set, performance and quality. The Liebert PowerSure LPM on my 200A panel is what would be considered severe overkill... but I sleep well knowing that if I lose equipment due to a transient, then there was not much that could be done to save it otherwise :)

Just some comments on these good criteria:



In some whole-home mount SPDs, you may be able to see the leads, but exactly what short lead lengths mean is 6" or less by UL 1449 test, but this is often a touch long. A best design means to solder the surge protective device down to a point were there are no leads, if such a device can be made. http://www.tvss.net/train/gen1449.htm
The "let through voltage" is defined by the UL 1449 test, which then certifies your SPD but that is just a rounding up of whatever voltage the device was tested to sustain, but it may not the the actual let through voltage of the production unit you have, the ultimate depends on the actual component installed in your particular SPD.
Generally SAD and MOV are not heat sinked, if they generate heat they should be allowed to fail or trip a thermal fuse
A good idea, in panel mount an audible alarm helps and an LED is an absolute minimum
If an SPD is certified by UL or NRTL as a surge protective device or a surge arrester, it will meet criteria. To exceed it, well you have to test it on your own or take the manufacturer's word, FWIW!



While I agree with you basically- the parts used in the TVSS unit can make a difference, where the biggest differences occur is in the TVSS design and implementation.

1) Does the design allow for short lead lengths to the TVSS device?
2) Does the internal circuitry and attached leads provide for a very low let-through voltage?
3) Are the internal components 'potted' or provided with consideration for heat sinking to ensure superior life expectancy of the internal devices?
4) Do you have some sort of indication on the TVSS device to determine if the circuitry is damaged or compromised?
5) Does the unit meet or exceed the UL and IEEE ratings for TVSS or SPD devices for the type of installation you are considering?

Just some comments on these good criteria:



In some whole-home mount SPDs, you may be able to see the leads, but exactly what short lead lengths mean is 6" or less by UL 1449 test, but this is often a touch long. A best design means to solder the surge protective device down to a point were there are no leads, if such a device can be made. http://www.tvss.net/train/gen1449.htm
The "let through voltage" is defined by the UL 1449 test, which then certifies your SPD but that is just a rounding up of whatever voltage the device was tested to sustain, but it may not the the actual let through voltage of the production unit you have, the ultimate depends on the actual component installed in your particular SPD.
Generally SAD and MOV are not heat sinked, if they generate heat they should be allowed to fail or trip a thermal fuse
A good idea, in panel mount an audible alarm helps and an LED is an absolute minimum
If an SPD is certified by UL or NRTL as a surge protective device or a surge arrester, it will meet criteria. To exceed it, well you have to test it on your own or take the manufacturer's word, FWIW!


1) In many instances the 'box' in which the SPD is mounted is very large...adding unneeded additional inches or feet of lead length to the device.
2) The let through voltage is also determined by the lead length. Many times the manufacturer will provide the test with the indicated 6-12" leads, but with the unit mounted inside of the 'box' the lead length is much longer, therefore the let-through voltage levels will suffer. The same goes for many of these so-called 'modular' TVSS units, where the suppression unit can be changed out if failure occurs. In tests I have witnessed using many various manufacturer's units, the let through voltage levels are quite variable. This is why I consider the Innovative Tech units to be some of the best. The let through voltage levels have been consistently lower than most of the other brands.
3) If the units pass the specific UL and IEEE criteria, that means they meet the minimum requirements. :o

I find that more often than not, the installed lead lengths are much longer than the manufacturers published test spec conditions. It would appear that the reasoning is a combination of convenience and installer ignorance.

I have not looked at the Innovative Technology units first hand. I will take your word for it with regard to the quality and look into the featureset and pricing as compared to the Liebert stuff.

This is what I run and really like it, I noticed better picure quality and more power On my AVR elite 94... The Furman Elite 20pfi http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=02&id=ELITE-20PFi

I use a 10KVA Controlled Power Company power purifier. It feeds a dedicated sub-panel which then ultimately feeds my system. Most of the system runs on 250v.

Here is a link:

http://www.controlledpwr.com/Industrial_Power_Purifier_Conditioner.html

Paying attention to the ground of the system is as important or more so.

Kevin

This is what I run and really like it, I noticed better picure quality and more power On my AVR elite 94... The Furman Elite 20pfi http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=02&id=ELITE-20PFi

How the heck would a power conditioner provide more power for an AVR?

How the heck would a power conditioner provide more power for an AVR?
The same way Krell was able to get 6000watts from a single 120V20A power input.

The same way Krell was able to get 6000watts from a single 120V20A power input.

If I lived by you I would buy you a beer for that answer, you made me laugh so hard and I needed that this morning :)

How the heck would a power conditioner provide more power for an AVR?

My apologies, I guess I should of worded it differently. Just calling it like I hear it :) Ok I noticed wright away my volume on my Elite 94 when normaly at -18 had the same volume at -9 It like doubled and yes I found that to be strange to so I did some research to find out why and this is what I found http://www.audioholics.com/news/press-releases/furman-sound-ships-elite-20-pf-power-conditioner My picure quality also appeared to have improved, colors seem more true, reds where brighter, blues and blacks ect .

The Furman is built like a tank to. the power cord looks like its 8 awg if there is one that thick . Heres a pic of the back before I pluged everything in , its a quality peice http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r69/TheFactor_photos/DSC00995.jpg and at around 1200 dollars it has a lot of bang for the buck and this is only Furmans middle of the line conditioner but like I said im very happy with its performance.

If I lived by you I would buy you a beer for that answer, you made me laugh so hard and I needed that this morning :)

Its only a power conditioner Focker :p

The Furman is built like a tank to. the power cord looks like its 8 awg if there is one that thick . Heres a pic of the back before I pluged everything in , its a quality peice http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r69/TheFactor_photos/DSC00995.jpg and at around 1200 dollars it has a lot of bang for the buck and this is only Furmans middle of the line conditioner but like I said im very happy with its performance.

While the Furman units are well built and provide a means for component switching, unless the power at your location is absolutely awful, the power supplies in the AV equipment will 'buffer' the internal circuitry from 99% of the typical crap in the power system. I would put more money into a surge suppression system at your main panel.

While the Furman units are well built and provide a means for component switching, unless the power at your location is absolutely awful, the power supplies in the AV equipment will 'buffer' the internal circuitry from 99% of the typical crap in the power system. I would put more money into a surge suppression system at your main panel.

Thankyou for your advice, I do live in a house in a residential area and the houses are relatively new under 10 years old . All I know is after Getting my Furman the results were phenomenal . I beleive the furman does also function as a surge type suppresser but to have one at the Main panel solely for that purpose is a something to consider , Thankyou again

I really would like to see some test that prove it can double the power and/or the SPL. The link you gave was a press release and I just can't buy into those.
I have a Richard Gray that works great but they sling the bull pretty good too.

I have a Richard Gray that works great but they sling the bull pretty good too.

Any company that slings the bull I would watch out for and be careful of.

Some quotes from the press release:
Also employed in the ELITE-20 PF is Furman's unique Power Factor Correction technology. With this circuitry, power amplifiers are fed a highly filtered, extremely low-impedance supply of AC power with a massive current reservoir (55 amp peak charge). The net effect is as if the user's power amplifier virtually doubled in power and improved immeasurably in quality.
When employing the ELITE-20 PF, users will immediately notice that far clearer and stunningly focused sound and visual images are delivered from their systems. Video presentation will be crisp and colors true with greater gray and black scale definition, as well as noticeably improved depth and clarity. Sonic transients will be startlingly fast with bass fundamentals that shake foundations with their weight and visceral impact. Mid and high frequencies will bloom with sweet, non-glaring ease as imaging improves dramatically, all the while remaining true to the system's inherent virtues.

Thankyou for your advice, I do live in a house in a residential area and the houses are relatively new under 10 years old . All I know is after Getting my Furman the results were phenomenal . I beleive the furman does also function as a surge type suppresser but to have one at the Main panel solely for that purpose is a something to consider , Thankyou again

You really don't want to use your Furman unit as a surge suppressor. A surge suppressor is supposed to be a sacrificial device. The Furman is too expensive to be sacrificial:o

Most of your AV equipment is powered by an onboard SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply). It could pretty much care less how "clean" the power being fed to it is and is fairly blind to overall PF of the supply... You see the SMPS chops the power up based on the frequency, not the shape of the waveform or its voltage/current phase relationship.

Unless your neighbor (on the same X-former tap) is running an arc-welder and a few 15hp motors... spending money to "clean" your power is "cleaning your wallet". As others have said, spend the money on a better TVSS.

A well built power conditioner can help to isolate problematic (noisy) equipment, but that is more of a problem of the past. Modern supplies are fairly well filtered and have their own PF correction anyway.

On a side note:

Most homes are billed by the Watt/hour. That is they do NOT pay for PF losses, the power company does. Adding PF correction to the home (big snake oil business) will, in most cases, slightly increase the utility bill, not reduce it. Most homes have a PF near unity (but slightly lagging) anyway (unless they are full of those silly CFL bulbs).

The moral: Just because a vendor uses big words and complex explanations does not mean they are selling anything useful. Buyer beware, especially in this age of "green".

I really would like to see some test that prove it can double the power and/or the SPL. The link you gave was a press release and I just can't buy into those.
I have a Richard Gray that works great but they sling the bull pretty good too.
I know were your coming from and I felt the same way until I noticed for sure after adding the furman the volume only had to be half as high as before. I dont know why but all I know is it is what is . I have no explanation except adding the furman .

I know were your coming from and I felt the same way until I noticed for sure after adding the furman the volume only had to be half as high as before. I dont know why but all I know is it is what is . I have no explanation except adding the furman .


Something else changed :) A power "conditioner" does not have the ability to do anything more than possibly reduce the SNR a bit, and in most cases well out of the audible scope at any reasonable listening level. It can not provide more power than it draws from the wall. Some devices can store a bit of power (think capacitor) to provide some headroom during very large transients in the musical material. That said, your amp has the same functionality built in.

Something else changed :) A power "conditioner" does not have the ability to do anything more than possibly reduce the SNR a bit,
Do you mean increase SNR? Can't imagine it reducing signal to noise ratio.

and in most cases well out of the audible scope at any reasonable listening level. It can not provide more power than it draws from the wall. Some devices can store a bit of power (think capacitor) to provide some headroom during very large transients in the musical material.
That could make someone think the level is higher.

That said, your amp has the same functionality built in.
A cheap amp is liable to have much smaller caps than a well built one. Without knowing which one he has, it is hard to make that statement.

Mind you, I am not advocating anything here :). Just commenting on the statements made as to increase my post count :D.

Without knowing which one he has, it is hard to make that statement.
.

He has a Pioneer Elite 94

He has a Pioneer Elite 94
What size caps does it have for its power supply?

Do you mean increase SNR? Can't imagine it reducing signal to noise ratio. Of course... fingers faster than brain.

A cheap amp is liable to have much smaller caps than a well built one. Without knowing which one he has, it is hard to make that statement. It really does not matter much. The increased headroom provided by even HUGE storage caps is minimal. The same holds true for filtering caps... golden ear stuff more than real world "wow this is much better" stuff.

It really does not matter much. The increased headroom provided by even HUGE storage caps is minimal. The same holds true for filtering caps... golden ear stuff more than real world "wow this is much better" stuff.
Well, considering that we are in >$20K forum, then golden ear improvements are fair game :).

The engineer in me can't quite explain it. But my $8,000, hand tuned Mark Levinson DAC, does improve in fidelity as I fiddle with the frequency output by the PS Audio. The power supply in the DAC is quite sophisticated as you can imagine. So much so that if I change the frequency too much, it puts up a diagnostic on the display complaining about it!

So the theory that switchmode power supply takes care of everything doesn't explain why the sound changes in high-end equipment even if you don't buy that it is improved.

So the theory that switchmode power supply takes care of everything doesn't explain why the sound changes in high-end equipment even if you don't buy that it is improved.
It is unlikely that the Mark Levinson DAC uses anything other than a linear power supply.

So the theory that switchmode power supply takes care of everything doesn't explain why the sound changes in high-end equipment even if you don't buy that it is improved.

The sound often changes in high-end equipment even when it actually doesn't. ;)

a linear power supply.

No such thing as a linear power supply, unless you mean it's a battery. ;)

Well, considering that we are in >$20K forum, then golden ear improvements are fair game :).

The engineer in me can't quite explain it. But my $8,000, hand tuned Mark Levinson DAC, does improve in fidelity as I fiddle with the frequency output by the PS Audio. The power supply in the DAC is quite sophisticated as you can imagine. So much so that if I change the frequency too much, it puts up a diagnostic on the display complaining about it!

So the theory that switchmode power supply takes care of everything doesn't explain why the sound changes in high-end equipment even if you don't buy that it is improved.

Some transformers become more efficient when fed higher frequency voltage, but I would not expect improvement in the AV equipment from it.

No such thing as a linear power supply, unless you mean it's a battery. ;)
Revise my post to read "what is commonly referred to as a linear power supply." :)

The sound often changes in high-end equipment even when it actually doesn't. ;)
And I could say that the difference may actually be there but the person is not capable of hearing it ;) :)

I find that the best approach in these circles is not have an either or position. I don't dismiss everything out of hand because the engineer in me can't figure out why it would work. Nor do I accept every claim of improvement at face value. When engineering can prove something is wrong, then that is it. But if it can't explain it, then that is different.

In other words, I have found merit on both sides of the fence.

Well, considering that we are in >$20K forum, then golden ear improvements are fair game :). No arugment there :) My observation was directed at the -8 to -16 on the volume knob. many of us could dig into our units and upgrade bypass, filtering and storage caps to gain some level of improvement ;)

It is unlikely that the Mark Levinson DAC uses anything other than a linear power supply.
That would have been my guess too, except the fact that changing the frequency caused it to put up diagnostic reports. I am not sure how or why a linear power supply would have such a circuit.

I find that the best approach in these circles is not have an either or position. I don't dismiss everything out of hand because the engineer in me can't figure out why it would work. Nor do I accept every claim of improvement at face value. When engineering can prove something is wrong, then that is it. But if it can't explain it, then that is different.

In other words, I have found merit on both sides of the fence.

Level headed post.. It is too easy that they all sound the same and that it is all illusions... Bob in particular seems to espouse the mantra o: There are NO differences and it is all in our heads.. Since there has not been much progress in Audio, what differentiate QSC gears from those anybody else make including the vastly cheaper Behringer?

Well, considering that we are in >$20K forum, then golden ear improvements are fair game :).

The engineer in me can't quite explain it. But my $8,000, hand tuned Mark Levinson DAC, does improve in fidelity as I fiddle with the frequency output by the PS Audio. The power supply in the DAC is quite sophisticated as you can imagine. So much so that if I change the frequency too much, it puts up a diagnostic on the display complaining about it!

So the theory that switchmode power supply takes care of everything doesn't explain why the sound changes in high-end equipment even if you don't buy that it is improved.Has the engineer in you msde any measurements while fiddling?

And I could say that the difference may actually be there but the person is not capable of hearing it ;) :)

There are plenty of infinitesimal differences that don't make it to anywhere close to an audible difference.

And there are plenty of questionable reports of sonic changes that don't actually happen but are influenced by ego, marketing, etc.

Sometimes there's nothing to explain except imagination.

Level headed post.. It is too easy that they all sound the same and that it is all illusions... Bob in particular seems to espouse the mantra o: There are NO differences and it is all in our heads.. Since there has not been much progress in Audio, what differentiate QSC gears from those anybody else make including the vastly cheaper Behringer?

You seem to misread my posts.

There are plenty of infinitesimal differences that don't make it to anywhere close to an audible difference.
Sure. And there are those which do. So?
And there are plenty of questionable reports of sonic changes that don't actually happen but are influenced by ego, marketing, etc.
Sure. But there are plenty that do. So? :)

I remember in early 1980s when CD first came out, few knew anything about jitter. So everything digital was considered perfect. Then folks studied it further and figured out what jitter was and built instruments to measure it. But even with measurement, jitter is a complex animal as it has both spectrum and magnitude. So we are still learning the science behind things that most definitely impact audio, but don't show up in simple frequency response and THD measurements.
Sometimes there's nothing to explain except imagination.
True. But it is also a fact that only a small majority of population has the hearing ability to detect the last bit of distortion we are talking about. So the fact that 99% of the people don’t hear the difference is not proof that the improvement is not there.

At Microsoft, my group developed audio compression algorithms so we were forever looking for that rare breed who could detect small algorithm changes. Interestingly enough, many audiophiles were not capable of it. We did large scale double blind tests using audiophile employees at Microsoft and it was always fascinating how easy it was to fool most of them.

I used to be completely blind to what bothered golden ear audiophiles. Two years of codec and watermark testing, pushed me over the fence. :) All of a sudden, audio interconnects sounded different. Power regeneration did the same. As did different transports. Turning off front displays, etc.

So the fact that you may not hear the difference doesn't mean anything unless you tell me that you have trained your ear to hear differences or are the rare breed who is born with it. The brain does play tricks on you. No doubt about it. But dismissing the other side out of hand is not correct either. We have enough evidence to force one to take a middle position as the only credible one.

Has the engineer in you msde any measurements while fiddling?
Not in that scenario. There, as I dialed the frequency, the sound would change between three states: 1) no difference 2) sounded harsher and 3) sounded warmer with more low level detail. And it was quite repeatable.

If I only heard positive difference one could argue. But the thing literally acted like a quality knob of some sorts.

And to be clear, I was using headphones nearly as expensive as the DAC. And using content that I knew to have really fine low level detail. I doubt that one could hear the difference using speakers and average material.

But yes, I would love to measure jitter on HDMI. When I went looking last year, no one built such a machine! Yes, there is measurement tool for HDMI signals but nothing that spits out the frequency and spectrum of audio clock. It is remarkable that the industry is driving blind here. With S/PDIF and Toslink, we could easily measure both (although interpretting is still hard). But with HDMI we can't. At least couldn't as of last year.

I consider "conditioning" the removal of all neutral to ground or common mode noise which can be death on digital electronics (processors, DACs, PC CPUs etc). In my line of work this is normally done with an isolation transformer.

Surges and sags within reason should be able to be handled by the built in power supply.

Sure. And there are those which do. So?

Sure. But there are plenty that do. So? :)

I remember in early 1980s when CD first came out, few knew anything about jitter. So everything digital was considered perfect. Then folks studied it further and figured out what jitter was and built instruments to measure it. But even with measurement, jitter is a complex animal as it has both spectrum and magnitude. So we are still learning the science behind things that most definitely impact audio, but don't show up in simple frequency response and THD measurements.

True. But it is also a fact that only a small majority of population has the hearing ability to detect the last bit of distortion we are talking about. So the fact that 99% of the people don’t hear the difference is not proof that the improvement is not there.

At Microsoft, my group developed audio compression algorithms so we were forever looking for that rare breed who could detect small algorithm changes. Interestingly enough, many audiophiles were not capable of it. We did large scale double blind tests using audiophile employees at Microsoft and it was always fascinating how easy it was to fool most of them.

I used to be completely blind to what bothered golden ear audiophiles. Two years of codec and watermark testing, pushed me over the fence. :) All of a sudden, audio interconnects sounded different. Power regeneration did the same. As did different transports. Turning off front displays, etc.

So the fact that you may not hear the difference doesn't mean anything unless you tell me that you have trained your ear to hear differences or are the rare breed who is born with it. The brain does play tricks on you. No doubt about it. But dismissing the other side out of hand is not correct either. We have enough evidence to force one to take a middle position as the only credible one.

At least you did double blind tests and accept them as appropriate methods of investigation.

The vast majority of sonic difference reports are casual anecdotes with no substance behind them other than "how can you be so sure what I heard?" The reliability of such reports is minimal at best, but more often non-existent. I think many of us are right to be skeptical.

BL-QSC,

Is that directed to me?

Wells guys I think im out of league here on this thread and probably had no business posting here but I couldnt resist sharing my excitement with my Furman and the results . I know its not in my head because before when I watched blurays sometimes I'd be -2 and now I cant even come close to that or its at concert level volume. Seriously nothing changed except the furman, its plugged into the same wall/outlet my 80 dollar power strip was plugged into and I noticed the difference in volume instantly. I didnt read about it first until I started searching and trying to see why this happen . I know my AVR and what level I listened to it at a regular basis and how much lower im running it now . Maybe im going blind and cant read the avr volume and my hearing is playing tricks on me but not likely :p I wish someone else that had a Furman 21 was experiencing the same thing as me and post up . But Thanks to everyone for all there opinions on this strange phenomena ;)

I know my AVR and what level I listened to it at a regular basis and how much lower im running it now . Maybe im going blind and cant read the avr volume and my hearing is playing tricks on me but not likely :p I wish someone else that had a Furman 21 was experiencing the same thing as me and post up . But Thanks to everyone for all there opinions on this strange phenomena ;)
How about a quick test. Take out the unit and see if your level changes. Then plug it back in.

Better yet, have a friend/family member and ask them about the level without telling them what you are doing. Report back and we will tell you what is going on :).

How about a quick test. Take out the unit and see if your level changes. Then plug it back in.

Better yet, have a friend/family member and ask them about the level without telling them what you are doing. Report back and we will tell you what is going on :).

Thats a excellent idea but im afraid to touch anything because I like my new found power and " possibily" better clarity that im experiencing but that im not really sure of it could be in my mind but not the illusion of more power . I've only had this Furman for a few weeks and everytime I turn my system on im wondering will it still be as strong lol and go back to the way it was . Maybe after I enjoy it a little while longer i'll try your suggestion and that would back up what im hearing for sure if indeed its happening. What I can do is have a friend over and unplug my AVR from the furman and plug it into the power strip I was running . Im wondering if this power strip was starving my AVR Of power :confused: it was a desent one though .

I see... what if you had your friend over, plugged everything back into the power strip and your friend thought *that* sounded louder/better? In the words of the Oracle in Matrix, that will surely cook your noodles! :D

I see... what if you had your friend over, plugged everything back into the power strip and your friend thought *that* sounded louder/better? In the words of the Oracle in Matrix, that will surely cook your noodles! :D

LOL That would be a understatement :D

I used to be completely blind to what bothered golden ear audiophiles. Two years of codec and watermark testing, pushed me over the fence. :) All of a sudden, audio interconnects sounded different. Power regeneration did the same. As did different transports. Turning off front displays, etc.
In double blind tests? If so and they are documented and peer reviewed and repeatable that would be a scientific breakthrough (I am not saying of course that some improperly designed component might not change the sound when the display is turned on/off, but it would be measurable and repeatable in double blind tests).
So the fact that you may not hear the difference doesn't mean anything unless you tell me that you have trained your ear to hear differences or are the rare breed who is born with it. The brain does play tricks on you. No doubt about it. But dismissing the other side out of hand is not correct either. We have enough evidence to force one to take a middle position as the only credible one.
Once a significant body of scientific evidence has been built up it is reasonable and logical to dismiss the "other side" out of hand, if the other side is suggesting "facts" that contradict well established science. Otherwise we would forever be stuck at 0. As the saying goes, it's best not to be so open minded that ones brain falls out.

The majority of beliefs propagated by audiophiles are not the middle position. They are fringe positions with nary a shred of scientific credibility.

Do you agree that double blind testing is the standard for establishing whether cables sound different* and that if people** cannot pass double blind tests, than there is no evidence there is an audible difference?

*Since this is the loony forum I must always add the qualification that it is assumed proper cables are being used and that no, I am not saying that cables can never sound/look different, of course they can if they are not the appropriate cable/spec.

**"People" meaning even just one person anywhere in the world who could for instance identify in a double blind test whether they are listening to a stock power cable versus a snake oil power cable, or identify which cable they are listening to out of two different adequately sized speaker cables etc.

In double blind tests?
Yes. I have tested myself in that manner if that is what you are asking.

If so and they are documented and peer reviewed and repeatable that would be a scientific breakthrough (I am not saying of course that some improperly designed component might not change the sound when the display is turned on/off, but it would be measurable and repeatable in double blind tests).
I didn't say I had conducted a large study on effects of power regeneration. I have said that I have tested myself in double blind mode to know that a) I was not imagining things and b) the results were 100% repeatable. None of this rises to scientific certaintity given the population of one :).

My testing however has been far more rigerous than claims of many.

The majority of beliefs propagated by audiophiles are not the middle position. They are fringe positions with nary a shred of scientific credibility.
I do not consider myself in any category of people. As I have said, I am a pragmatist. I fight crazy audiophiles in many circles (plenty of times here in AVS :) ). And other times, I defend them. It all depends on context. We had a guy here who claimed that the media that stored his blu-ray masters made a difference in the audio quality of the final product. No amount of explaing that a data file is a data file would convince him otherwise.

On the other extreme, if you told me that turning on your washing machine makes your audio sound worse, I would not try to argue against it. Because unlike above, I can't prove that it can't be even though I have never experienced such an effect. This is what I call being open minded. Not experiencing something is not the same as it not existing. There was another recent thread where someone said different NAS file servers made audible differences. Believe it or not, I can see the possibility in that! And no, this is quite different than the BD mastering case above.

Do you agree that double blind testing is the standard for establishing whether cables sound different* and that if people** cannot pass double blind tests, than there is no evidence there is an audible difference?
It depends on the nature of a double blind test. The brain has limitted ability to remember things. So if you played a 3 minute song with one cable and then switched cables and played the same 3 minute song I would not expect many people to pass such a test. But change the setup and give a real-time control to switch back and forth instantly between two cables coming from identical source and then I believe in it. Indeed, this is the type of test which I have subjected myself to.

As a way of reference, I once got a nice tour of the Revel speaker factory. They setup double blind tests using a system of shifting two speakers left and right behind a dark screen. They attempt to keep the switching time to under 4 seconds for the same reason. They have tested people and found that if it takes more than 4 seconds, people just can't remember what they heard.

*Since this is the loony forum I must always add the qualification that it is assumed proper cables are being used and that no, I am not saying that cables can never sound/look different, of course they can if they are not the appropriate cable/spec.
I tested and compare interconnect cables that cost $100 to $500 (3 foot sections). The source was high resolution (DVD audio and SACD). The transducer was Stax electrostatic headphones. In this scenario, the difference was repeatable and distinct. However, I do not claim at all that I could hear the same with speakers. Nor have I tested myself that way.

**"People" meaning even just one person anywhere in the world who could for instance identify in a double blind test whether they are listening to a stock power cable versus a snake oil power cable, or identify which cable they are listening to out of two different adequately sized speaker cables etc.
I have not tested myself on power or speaker cables. I have tested the PS Audio. That is the only time and device I tested in that category. FYI I received all the equipment for above for free as part of my job. So I had no attachment to justify the cost of them :).

Let me also be clear before this discussion gets out of hand. I am not here to defend what golden ear audiophiles claim across the board. I laugh at a lot of claims just as the next guy. But there are areas where I have an open mind, proven by my own experience and testing. That's all.

Here is a taste of what you can experience yourself. Get a nice pair of headphones and a well recorded CD. Put that in your source player and look up in the manual to see if there is a way to turn off the front display and or video circuits (in your AVR or transport or both). Then turn that feature on and off to see if there is a difference.

Can anyone think of why there would be a difference?

Can anyone think of why there would be a difference?
Yes, it's called a placebo :p. And it's one of the most well known principles of psychology and science and no one no matter how intelligent or "objective" is immune to it. I've performed countless of these tests over the years always with the same result - the moment the test is blind and preformed enough times to remove chance from the equation the listeners guesses become no better than chance. And even though I respect your knowledge and opinion as far as I am concerned there is only one possibility with regard to your Stax test. Either it was in someway flawed or one of the cables were seriously flawed. If you could repeat it you could become (even more) famous :D. You mighty want to write the Amazing Randi - he was offering a million dollars for a while to anyone that could gear the differences between some speakers cables. As expected the company (Pair Cables) backed out when put to the challenge.

I agree totally that audible memory is short. However keep in mind that we are talking about testing audiophiles claims here, so that really doesn't matter. Insofar as if audiophile claims that changing power cords makes a huge difference to the sound then that is their claim and they should be able to prove it even if it takes 60 seconds to switch power cables.

p.s. I will now bow out of this debate and simply say that Bob Lee speaks for me and can hold down the fort :D.

Yes, it's called a placebo :p.

Well, not in this case :). Sterephile magazine made measurements of DVD-A players when they first came out, with or without the video+display circuits on. The results? With everything on, the best resolution out of the player DAC was only 14 bits! Yes, only 14 instead of the claimed 24. With the video and display turned off, they managed 16-17 bits or barely above CD spec.

One has to think how accurate these devices need to be. Dividing the voltage of a AA battery (typical audio output level) into 16 million levels is not something easily achieved in the face a ton of noise in the player....

Well, not in this case :). Sterephile magazine made measurements of DVD-A players when they first came out, with or without the video+display circuits on. The results? With everything on, the best resolution out of the player DAC was only 14 bits! Yes, only 14 instead of the claimed 24. With the video and display turned off, they managed 16-17 bits or barely above CD spec.
I know you would immediately make a liar out of me (bowing out) :). I am skeptical of some of Sterophiles measurements but let's accept them for the purposes of this debate. I am not debating differences which can be:

A. Heard in double blind tests.
B. Quantified with measurements. Regarding B, I am not even saying B is required to confirm A, though I am convinced that differences are in fact measurable long before they are audible.

So in the instance above, I am uncertain of the threshold of human hearing with regard to word length and sampling rate, but if it could be heard in a double blind test I would have no disagreement with it. I do think some humans can very likely hear improvements over standard red book audio, no doubt about that. I think the DVD audio spec probably took us beyond the limit of human audibility and I was very disappointed that DVD Audio never took off.

BTW, the fact that you know of these measurements is a perfect example of the placebo effect. Because you might go about turning off displays expecting to heat more bits :D.

Not in that scenario. There, as I dialed the frequency, the sound would change between three states: 1) no difference 2) sounded harsher and 3) sounded warmer with more low level detail. And it was quite repeatable.

If I only heard positive difference one could argue. But the thing literally acted like a quality knob of some sorts.

And to be clear, I was using headphones nearly as expensive as the DAC. And using content that I knew to have really fine low level detail. I doubt that one could hear the difference using speakers and average material.What happened if you chose a different headphone as opposed to the Stax and for that matter, how was the hookup done with the PSAudio device? Perhaps this is due to some peculiarity with the Stax headphones.

Well, it was considered and promoted as perfect by marketing and advertising. The engineers were not necessarily in accord nor did they have a public voice. Also wasn't jitter well known for several decades earlier as a result of work in the communications industry? If the press or for that matter those designing players didn't know much about it that speaks more to incomptence and or general ignorance of the field.

[QUOTE]At Microsoft, my group developed audio compression algorithms so we were forever looking for that rare breed who could detect small algorithm changes. Interestingly enough, many audiophiles were not capable of it. We did large scale double blind tests using audiophile employees at Microsoft and it was always fascinating how easy it was to fool most of them.Were they trained? Seeing as you worked at Microsoft, were you there when James D. Johnston came on board?

I used to be completely blind to what bothered golden ear audiophiles. Two years of codec and watermark testing, pushed me over the fence. All of a sudden, audio interconnects sounded different. Power regeneration did the same. As did different transports. Turning off front displays, etc.Yes, but do they sound different in non-Stax setups? Also, since you've said your work with power involved some PSAudio unit, is it really fair to legitimately consider a unit where one can play with the output frequency as well the fact that it hasn't been tested according to FCC Part B guidelines as an unintentional radiator of EMI/RFI as a robustly designed power regenerator?

I know you would immediately make a liar out of me (bowing out) :). I am skeptical of some of Sterophiles measurements but let's accept them for the purposes of this debate. I am not debating differences which can be:

[QUOTE]So the fact that you may not hear the difference doesn't mean anything unless you tell me that you have trained your ear to hear differences or are the rare breed who is born with it. The brain does play tricks on you. No doubt about it. But dismissing the other side out of hand is not correct either. We have enough evidence to force one to take a middle position as the only credible one.Training...you bet. The other side has the ability to establish credibility in their claims. So do vendors. For the latter IMO, it's not in their best financial interests to do so.

Most entertaining thread.. ever! :D

I wonder if professional musicians are audiophiles?

What happened if you chose a different headphone as opposed to the Stax and for that matter, how was the hookup done with the PSAudio device? Perhaps this is due to some peculiarity with the Stax headphones.
You've got to be kidding, right?

You familar with the Stax?

You familar with the Stax?
Yes.

So, I would've tried it with headphones that weren't electrostatic and possibly not tube driven. Maybe a set of closed ear Sony's but then that's just the engineer/scientist in me talking out loud. You just might be picking up interference and mistaking it for something else.

What happened if you chose a different headphone as opposed to the Stax and for that matter, how was the hookup done with the PSAudio device? Perhaps this is due to some peculiarity with the Stax headphones.
I did not test in any other scenario so can't say. I do however have no less than three versions of the Stax headphone and its amp :). Two transistor types and one with Tube.

I am not sure how you can screw up the polarity with Stax. It has a keyed plug for the headphones and it only goes in one way.

Also wasn't jitter well known for several decades earlier as a result of work in the communications industry? If the press or for that matter those designing players didn't know much about it that speaks more to incomptence and or general ignorance of the field.
Yes, jitter as a concept was well known. But only to the extent that it corrupted data/eliminated your ability to extract digital data. The fact that slight timing changes in audio samples could have fidelity impact, even though the data was "correct" was not known. At the same time, audiophiles were wondering why changing the S/PDIF "digital" cable would make the sound different. They were laughed at and told "digital is digital" by engineers and others.

Were they trained? Seeing as you worked at Microsoft, were you there when James D. Johnston came on board?
We had both trained and untrained listeners. Both served different purposes.

As for JJ, I hired him into my group :). But he came well after the above experiments. The mission I gave him was to revamp the poor audio pipeline in Windows XP and add room correction/processing. There is a long thread in HTPC section on that.

Yes, but do they sound different in non-Stax setups?
To some people I am sure. If there is a difference in the source, other setups can reveal them just the same. The difference by the way, was the system being able to resolve more of the low level bits/detail. A decay lasted longer. And there was a bit less harshness -- both indicative of lower quantization noise.

I prefer headphones for testing because it eliminates the room and allows me to turn up the volume as much as I like without bothering others.

Also, since you've said your work with power involved some PSAudio unit, is it really fair to legitimately consider a unit where one can play with the output frequency as well the fact that it hasn't been tested according to FCC Part B guidelines as an unintentional radiator of EMI/RFI as a robustly designed power regenerator?
FCC Part B has to do with RF radiations. The certification indicates whether it has passed those tests, not whether it actually generates out of spec RF. But if it did, and you are saying that is behind the improvements I heard, then I question why changing the frequency of the line voltage made a difference both ways.

And, if you believe in RF changing sound in audio frequencies, then you are more of a crazy golden ear audiophile than I am :D.

I know you would immediately make a liar out of me (bowing out) :). I am skeptical of some of Sterophiles measurements but let's accept them for the purposes of this debate. I am not debating differences which can be:
The stereophile measurements were pretty straightforward. You play a 1 Khz ton, and watch the magnitude of harmonics -- no different than measuring THD distortion in an amplifier or other linear device. You then measure how much lower the harmonics are relative to the signal and express that in bits/db. That headroom defines the "linear" portion of the DAC. Anything beyond that means that the DAC is reproducing a different sound than the values it is fed.

Put another way, a DAC in an ideal world is 100% linear. If you double the input value, its output must double. To the extent this is not true, and the input to output graph has a curve in it (rather than a straight line), then you get harmonic distortion -- again no different than an amp that varies from ideal.

In the above tests, if you turned off the front display and video circuits, the magnitude of harmonics went down, indicating that the performance of the DAC is improved. This, even in $1,000 players (1990s dollars) with heavy duty and isolated power supplies, etc. The audible difference was quite easy to hear by the way.

Of note, today's systems are designed much better. So perhaps there is not as much of a difference. Still, if you are not watching a video, turning off all unnecessary components doesn't hurt and can potentially help a bit.

So, I would've tried it with headphones that weren't electrostatic and possibly not tube driven. Maybe a set of closed ear Sony's but then that's just the engineer/scientist in me talking out loud. You just might be picking up interference and mistaking it for something else.
Per my other post, I have three Stax headphones and only one is tube based. While I consider the tube unit the best, I don't want to age it so many of my tests were done with the transistor one. And results were the same.

But this is a good topic to expand on. I am sure if I measured the tube unit, it would have far more distortion than the transistor units. Yet, the sound is in an entirely different class than the transistor unit. The warm and fluid sound that comes out of it makes music enjoyment so much better. Prior to this, I laughed at people who worshipped tubes. But no more. It is these sobering experiences that makes you have an open mind :).

By the way, I also had Senheiser headphones (model 580 I think). I am pretty sure I could have heard the difference with those also. But I can’t swear whether I did the above test with them or not. As good as they are, they are clearly in a couple of classes blower than even the low end Stax. They simply are not as revealing.

Net, net, my goal was to measure things with my ear with the best tools available. You wouldn’t advocate someone measuring signal to noise ratio with a poor instrument that has a lot of noise itself. By the same token, when it comes to measuring things with your ear, you want the best that is available. And Stax is it in my opinion.

WHy can't ValhallaPC resurface and join in here? I miss that little fellow..;)

WHy can't ValhallaPC resurface and join in here? I miss that little fellow..;)

Indeed. Now that Heath Ledger is sadly no longer with us, ValhallaPC would have made a perfect villain for the next Batman movie..."The Tweaker" ;)

My speculation, Amir, is whether the audible differences you heard with the Stax (I like 'em fwiw) and the PSA unit was actually a result of the revealing nature of the Stax or some sort of unknown interaction? I can't help but thinking that that a device that alters the AC frequency has the potential to affect devices in unknown ways - some pleasant, some not - hence my asking about using more conventional headphones. Interesting stuff though.

My speculation, Amir, is whether the audible differences you heard with the Stax (I like 'em fwiw) and the PSA unit was actually a result of the revealing nature of the Stax or some sort of unknown interaction?
Hey amirm, did you make sure there wasn't a UFO flying overhead when you conducted your test. It might explain your findings.

In Washington state, that's a distinct possibility.

I think ValhallaPC is the dark side of NIN74!!

Hey amirm, did you make sure there wasn't a UFO flying overhead when you conducted your test. It might explain your findings.
You know it is hard to tell seeing how it is cloudy 9 months out of the year here so you are not likely to see every UFO which goes by :).

Now, I wonder if the extra rain we get allows us to hear better audio! You know, the extra humidity makes the electrons move faster. I should give that news to the local chamber of commerce! :D

WHy can't ValhallaPC resurface and join in here? I miss that little fellow..;)

Maybe driven out by the unmoderated on the forum?

Well, not in this case :). Sterephile magazine made measurements of DVD-A players when they first came out, with or without the video+display circuits on. The results? With everything on, the best resolution out of the player DAC was only 14 bits! Yes, only 14 instead of the claimed 24. With the video and display turned off, they managed 16-17 bits or barely above CD spec.


And now, let's consider the audibility of 14 bits versus 24, under normal listening conditions.

IIRC 14 bits is the lower limit before most people start to actually 'hear' the shorter wordlength.

So once again, Stereophile may have made a mountain out of a digital molehill...all the while touting such 'high rez' media as *vinyl LP*! :rolleyes:

Yes, jitter as a concept was well known. But only to the extent that it corrupted data/eliminated your ability to extract digital data. The fact that slight timing changes in audio samples could have fidelity impact, even though the data was "correct" was not known. At the same time, audiophiles were wondering why changing the S/PDIF "digital" cable would make the sound different. They were laughed at and told "digital is digital" by engineers and others.

Proof that what 'audiophiles' heard was 1) real and 2) ldue to jitter? Anyone? Extant listening test data on jitter audibility seem to make it unlikely that all those reports of how bad digital sounded, were due to the poor little S/PDIF cable's jitter.

So, I'll keep laughing at them, thanks,, not matte rhow many times the cite jitter as their 'discovery'. Feel free to provide the data to shut me up, any time.


In the above tests, if you turned off the front display and video circuits, the magnitude of harmonics went down, indicating that the performance of the DAC is improved. This, even in $1,000 players (1990s dollars) with heavy duty and isolated power supplies, etc. The audible difference was quite easy to hear by the way.

Yes, so many such differences were reported as 'easy to hear'...until they weren't. Numbers and test results would be nice. Stereophile is traditionally good with bench tests, not so hot -- terrible, actually -- at providing listening tests data.

Mr Krabapple

Should I take it that 14-bits is indistinguishable from 24 bits? I also noticed the term "likely" in your last post would that mean that it is "likely" an opinion, not a statement of fact?

Mr Krabapple

Should I take it that 14-bits is indistinguishable from 24 bits? I also noticed the term "likely" in your last post would that mean that it is "likely" an opinion, not a statement of fact?
Where did he use the term "likely", I don't see it. Perhaps you expected to hear it, oops, I mean see it, and you did ;).

Nor did I see where he said anything suggesting that 14 bits is indistinguishable from 24 bits. He said this:

And now, let's consider the audibility of 14 bits versus 24, under normal listening conditions.

IIRC 14 bits is the lower limit before most people start to actually 'hear' the shorter wordlength.

Mr QQQ

He edited it after I made the point but it is all good... So 14 bits is distinguishable from 24 bits... that's what I thought. Has it been scientifically verified that people are not able, under any circumstances, to perceive differences between 14 and 16 bits?

Most entertaining thread.. ever! :D
:eek: Wow you guys are amazing ....to much rocket science going on here its like reading another language :D and you can thank me for the entertainment I think I accidently threw a match in the wood pile :D

And now, let's consider the audibility of 14 bits versus 24, under normal listening conditions.
Yes let's consider it. But fair notice, you are mixing topics :). Someone challenged me if one can measure what audiophiles perceive to be different. I provided very specific example where measurements did track differences in something people wouldn't expect at all: turning off front panels and video circuits.

Now, whether you need more than 14 bits or not, is another topic. One that I have addressed at length in other threads and can deal with again. But was hoping to not get into it all over again :).


IIRC 14 bits is the lower limit before most people start to actually 'hear' the shorter wordlength.
14-bits can be enough if properly dithered and at sufficiently high sampling rate. However, if you butcher the bits due to jitter, that is entirely different matter. And that is the scenario we are talking about here.

So once again, Stereophile may have made a mountain out of a digital molehill...all the while touting such 'high rez' media as *vinyl LP*! :rolleyes:
Let's not make this thread about Stereophile. they are not here to defend themselves :). Besides, they simply provided measurements which you can see in every DAC test. Hopefully you are not saying that THD measurements of a DAC are useless. Because that is all they presented.

In this case, they separated hype ("24-bits") from reality ("14-bits in default playback mode"). Surely in that manner, they are on your side of the fence and not the other! :).

:eek: I think I accidently threw a match in the wood pile :D

Don't feel bad, this forum is nuclear powered. ;)

...and you can thank me for the entertainment I think I accidently threw a match in the wood pile :D
It happens every thread. Doesn't matter what the topic is. It's a "feature" of the forum. By the way, I have several Furman products. While I have not experienced what you have, Furman products are well made and I've been pleased with them.

It happens every thread. Doesn't matter what the topic is. It's a "feature" of the forum. By the way, I have several Furman products. While I have not experienced what you have, Furman products are well made and I've been pleased with them.

You have not experienced it, because it is not possible.

Why are those "in the know" so afraid to tell TheFactor that there is no way a "power filter" can double the power (or volume) of his amp and that a "power strip" is not going to cut it in half... Instead we all tiptoe around and talk about tangent subjects like bit depth and display induced jitter.

Just because this is a 20K+ forum does not mean that reality and physics can be ignored for the sake of allowing people to feel good about an expensive purchase. Tell me your "furman" helps to bring out subtle detail and I will go along with it. Tell me it is magic and can double an amps output and I am going to point out that it is not possible.


Sorry to pick on you TheFactor. But the physics at play here don't allow for what you have observed. You will have to look for a logical answer somewhere else, as the "Furman" is not even remotely capable of producing the effect you observed. As others havementioned, just unbplugging the AVR from the unit and plugging it back into the wall should negate the effect (if it was real).

Don't feel bad, this forum is nuclear powered. ;)

Is this a geek's way of saying the >$20K forum is greener than other forums here?:p

Bean- too bad the Furman product wasn't Monster or similar. Their marketing guys would have run with the statement. :)

Mr Krabapple

Should I take it that 14-bits is indistinguishable from 24 bits? I also noticed the term "likely" in your last post would that mean that it is "likely" an opinion, not a statement of fact?


When I use 'likely -- and I use it a lot, since scientifically-phrased claims are always probabilities -- it means that there a better-than-average chance.

But hey, don't believe me. Go take a 24bit file of music , convert to 14 bit, and let me know if you heard the difference in an ABX test, at normal listening volume.

Btw, you might want to try it at 16 vs 24 too.

Mr QQQ

He edited it after I made the point but it is all good... So 14 bits is distinguishable from 24 bits... that's what I thought. Has it been scientifically verified that people are not able, under any circumstances, to perceive differences between 14 and 16 bits?

This is the sort of silly loaded question that makes me laugh at 'audiophiles'.

There are almost ALWAYS circumstances under which some effect not normally occuring, occurs. So the question is how likely you are to encounter the effect.

Drinking clean water won't normally kill you. But under extraordinary circumstances, it could. 720p vs 1080p at normal viewing distances, isn't visible. If you reduce the viewing distance, or increase the screen size, it can be.

Mr QQQ

He edited it after I made the point but it is all good... So 14 bits is distinguishable from 24 bits... that's what I thought. Has it been scientifically verified that people are not able, under any circumstances, to perceive differences between 14 and 16 bits?

The way you asked the question (and the way he phrased it), one could easily claim that 14 bits is the same as 24. Heck, I can make a scientific case that even 2 bits is the same as 24!!!

Have to run but happy to explain later tonight. Anyone want to guess as to how the above could be true? I left a clue in my post to him :).

You have not experienced it, because it is not possible.

Why are those "in the know" so afraid to tell TheFactor that there is no way a "power filter" can double the power (or volume) of his amp and that a "power strip" is not going to cut it in half... Instead we all tiptoe around and talk about tangent subjects like bit depth and display induced jitter.

Just because this is a 20K+ forum does not mean that reality and physics can be ignored for the sake of allowing people to feel good about an expensive purchase. Tell me your "furman" helps to bring out subtle detail and I will go along with it. Tell me it is magic and can double an amps output and I am going to point out that it is not possible.


Sorry to pick on you TheFactor. But the physics at play here don't allow for what you have observed. You will have to look for a logical answer somewhere else, as the "Furman" is not even remotely capable of producing the effect you observed. As others havementioned, just unbplugging the AVR from the unit and plugging it back into the wall should negate the effect (if it was real).

No offence taken and totaly understand how most would feel about what im saying, I dont think anyones tip toeing around and not saying what they think. There was a few posts were some folks have and I respect what everyone is saying and there opinions whether it be personal or factual . I Know what Im experiencing and enjoying from the results of my Furman and thats all that really matters to me. I honestly did not post here to blow smoke were it doesn't belong : ) I posted this link of a introduction article of the Furman elite 21 earlier in this thread that maybe you missed and might make sense to you, that I found "after" I was searching to see why my volume on receiver could be much lower than before for the same output and it "seemed" to have better clarity to . But heres the link and again I want to stress that I did not read this until after I experienced what I have and was trying to find out why http://www.audioholics.com/news/press-releases/furman-sound-ships-elite-20-pf-power-conditioner

I Know what Im experiencing and enjoying from the results of my Furman and thats all that really matters to me. The article you linked to is a press release, not a review :)

It is understandable to attribute a better listening experience to your new purchase, but the changes in listening level you refer to can not be the "result of the Furman". If I told you my new Trek bicycle allowed me to get home faster than my Schwin, you may believe me. If I told you it allowed me to make it from downtown to my home 5 miles away in 17 seconds, you would laugh...

While your volume knob may only need to be half as high, there is a reasonable explanation. You may not care what the explanation is, but offering the "Furman" as the reason is not plausible. I would imagine that the manufacturer would not even support the claim (though less honest companies would bask in the testimonial glory).

Sorry to be a Furman buzz-kill... you purchased a quality product but it is governed by the same physics that everything else is.

The article you linked to is a press release, not a review :)

It is understandable to attribute a better listening experience to your new purchase, but the changes in listening level you refer to can not be the "result of the Furman". If I told you my new Trek bicycle allowed me to get home faster than my Schwin, you may believe me. If I told you it allowed me to make it from downtown to my home 5 miles away in 17 seconds, you would laugh...

While your volume knob may only need to be half as high, there is a reasonable explanation. You may not care what the explanation is, but offering the "Furman" as the reason is not plausible. I would imagine that the manufacturer would not even support the claim (though less honest companies would bask in the testimonial glory).

Sorry to be a Furman buzz-kill... you purchased a quality product but it is governed by the same physics that everything else is.

No problem your not a Buzz kill for my furman :) and I appreciate your input. I knew that it was a press release and not review I just found it interesting that in this part of the review is what I was experiencing >>> .... "Also employed in the ELITE-20 PF is Furman's unique Power Factor Correction technology. With this circuitry, power amplifiers are fed a highly filtered, extremely low-impedance supply of AC power with a massive current reservoir (55 amp peak charge). The net effect is as if the user's power amplifier virtually doubled in power and improved immeasurably in quality " there not saying nor am I that im doubling my power in my AVR from my Furman but its "as if" I am : ) Anyway thankyou for the comps on the Furman as far as being a quality product , it really is and its built very well it appears . I didnt buy it to get more power if I wanted that I would of invested in separates although I still plan on doing that eventually. So it was a treat to experience what I am without more than 130watts per channel that I had before . You know come to think of it I did just replace the batterys in my hearing aids :p;) j/k actually dont need any yet but I imagine if I dont tone down HT listening level I might in a few years . I like your comparisons but I think My huffy beach cruser would of beat your trek :p and dont make me pull out my Big wheel either :p Great discription btw and I know what your saying for sure :)

If you want to get home faster BeanAnimal then you need vintage PF Flyers.

If you want to get home faster BeanAnimal then you need vintage PF Flyers.


Honestly? I am a converse all-stars guy... always have been :)

Hey, me too although now they're part of Nike. I used to get mine, way back in the 60's from the factory outlet in Andover, MA. My pride and joy were some suede Coach V Walkers. But they didn't make you run faster. Only PF Flyers did that.

Yeah, this new shoe technology really slows me down and doesn't make me enjoy walking like I used to. But finding good, classically designed shoes is increasingly hard. But if you find some and modify them with the right shoelaces........nirvana!

If you want to get home faster BeanAnimal then you need vintage PF Flyers.

I remember those. When I was 5 years old I nagged my parents for PF Flyers. The TV commercials said they would make me run faster and jump higher.

When my parents bought me a pair of PF Flyers to replace my old sneakers, I spent the day running incessantly about the house and jumping. At one point I told my mom "Wow, they really do make me run faster and jump higher!"

At that age and with that naïveté I probably would've believed that they made a sound system louder, too. ;)

I remember those. When I was 5 years old I nagged my parents for PF Flyers. The TV commercials said they would make me run faster and jump higher.

When my parents bought me a pair of PF Flyers to replace my old sneakers, I spent the day running incessantly about the house and jumping. At one point I told my mom "Wow, they really do make me run faster and jump higher!"

At that age and with that naïveté I probably would've believed that they made a sound system louder, too. ;)

Try it again maybe it will, just make sure you tie them nice and tight ;)