I have had this Def Tech setup for about 6 years and still going strong, however I have the 6 year itch which is pretty long for me.

These are currently being powered by a Denon 5308ci in a dedicated room.
2- BP2002
1- C/L/R2002
4- BPX

What would you consider the next level above these? I am not looking for the $50k+ Snells, maybe a budget of $10-15k minus the JL Fathoms. In-walls are ok as well as free-standing.

Could any of the Triad line would be considered an upgrade?

I would like to make a short list and then audition.

Thanks for the input
Mike

PSB is always a no brainer as well as Paradigm around those prices.

JTR Triple 12LF
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1062777

Seaton Sound Catalysts
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1094517

paradigm signature series is in your budget. I didn't hear it, but it received very good reviews. doesn't hurt testing.

I'm considering changing my B&W 804 setup for behind the screen speakers. The Klipsch THX ultra-2 home theater set looks interesting...

Check Salk Sound for beautiful custom speakers. Mine are used with a pair of JL Audio F113s. Sound and look super!

Could you give us the Music/Movies percentage?

PSB Synchrony, PhaseTech dARTS digital system, NHT Xd digital system, Revel Performa for some, the first two better for movie orientation first, the latter for stereo listening first.

100% Movies, so also looking for matched surrounds as well (7.3 setup)

Could you give us the Music/Movies percentage?


So far the recommendations are:
PSB Synchrony
Phase Technology
Paradigm S-series
Seaton and JTR
Salk

Now will there be any benefit between an active speaker or powered by the 5308ci? JL has a Primacy series that are active speakers, anyone have experience with them?

Thanks again for the input...

At that pricepoint I have to second the offerings from Mark Seaton- you're getting as close to a truly custom made product for your application as posssible for that budget. Plus I think you'd be hard pressed to find better value for the application (behind the screen), just PM Art Sonneborn and ask him how he feels about his system...it's Seaton.

dan

I have Paradigm Reference 100v.3 fronts and CC-570 center and eventually will get ADP surrounds. At a local audio store, I have compared them to the Signature series, which is within your price range. I loved the Sigs, but they were out of my price range. The sales guy popped in a DVD Audio disc and just cranked it up. The sounded very good, but for me, I settled with the speakers I mentioned above. They still sound great, but a much better price tag.

I found a local dealer for B&W, they have a few models but nothing I was looking for:
Qty 7- CT8.4LCRS
or
Qty 7- CT7.3LCRS

Anyone have any experience with these?

maybe a budget of $10-15k minus the JL Fathoms. In-walls are ok as well as free-standing.

http://**********/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,185/category_id,36/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,37/

Focus Line Source LS9 from av123.

depends on your listening tastes--if you like focal try out he focal be series.
if that doesnt suit you maybe martin logan or b&w 8 series.

100% Movies, so also looking for matched surrounds as well (7.3 setup)

So far the recommendations are:
PSB Synchrony
Phase Technology
Paradigm S-series
Seaton and JTR
Salk

Now will there be any benefit between an active speaker or powered by the 5308ci? JL has a Primacy series that are active speakers, anyone have experience with them?

Thanks again for the input...

Hi Mike,

Just popping in to say hi and that I'll check on this thread when I can. http://www.websitetoolbox.com/images/boards/smilies/wave.gif

There are plenty of capable options being mentioned here and on your list. How large is your room, where are the speakers located around the screen, and do you have more than one row of seating? Are there factors you've heard in other systems you are looking to achieve in your room? What sort of acoustic treatments are or are not in the room?

You are fortunate in that there are many options available for audition in your area. :)

Enjoy the hunt!

I would agree with mark that there are many capable options that have been listed. However, after playing around with speakers from M&K, Paradigm Reference, Infinity, and finally Focal Electra's, I found none of them could handle the dynamics of movies in a convincing way. I went DIY for a while, experimenting with various focal driver based setups of my own design, which improved on things a little, but still were not what I wanted. Eventually I discovered the wonders of high efficiency pro drivers. I also discovered Dr. Geddes' Gedlee Summa line of speakers. While I won't go so far as to say that these speakers are the worlds best and should be considered above all others, I would consider them if I were you. I would also consider other lines of speakers following a similar design mantra. Namely, waveguide loaded tweeters with pattern control down to 1000hz or so, high efficiency, and fairly sizable drivers to ensure low levels of power compression. Mark's line of speakers are a definite option as well. They are a bit more expensive than the Summa's, but do offer built in amplification, dsp room correction, time alignment, and biamplification, so their is a lot of added value in that regard. JBL's Everest and K2 speakers are another line of high efficiency speakers I am a big fan of, though I feel they aren't the best value.

Just a quick point on driver compression. While others here might consider this heresies, there is plenty of scientific research to go with this view. Small drivers have greater power compression than larger drivers regardless of design. While ton's of money can be spent on motor design, there are no 6" midrange drivers with the power compression abilities of a 12" or 15" driver covering a similar range. In other words, there is no way that a 6" driver is going to play say 800hz as cleanly and loudly as a 12" driver doing the same (assuming similarly good design for each). It has been my experience in my own designs and in my literature reviews that even combining multiple drivers such as in a line array can not fix this fully, especially with regard to small room acoustics. I also believe that crossover points have no business being anywhere in the area of 1500hz to 10khz, which is a common and major flaw in many speakers. I defy any speaker designed in that manner to show a decent polar response.

I would agree with mark that there are many capable options that have been listed. However, after playing around with speakers from M&K, Paradigm Reference, Infinity, and finally Focal Electra's, I found none of them could handle the dynamics of movies in a convincing way.

I agree with you to an extent on these. Electras, especially, get a bit strained at high volumes. That's why I like the Synchronies - they have VERY low distortion at 95dB + volumes, are reasonably efficient and err towards the smoother side of neutral. Never get strained, never get in your face. Xd does that as well, but they're almost too accurate for the very lossy DD sound tracks (equivalent to ~128mbs MP3). I've heard that the 6.5" bass driver they use in these is the lowest distortion 6.5" driver measured at the NRC in Canada and Soundstage's measurements tend to confirm that. My *only* criticisms of this speaker is that they're a little bass heavy if you don't plug the bottom port and they lack a bit of upper midrange presence for music. However, these actually seem to euphonically help movie sound tracks. Audyssey can correct for this anyway if desired.

Mark,

The room is 14.6wx18dx9h with one curved row of 4 Berkline 45015. No treatments yet, (planning on it with replacing speakers and room makeover). The screenwall is just that no false wall, so I cannot conceal anything s aesthetics do play a role. Any pics of the JTR's in lacquer black with grills floating around?

Any local place you know of to check out the JTR's, not ready for the 7-Catalyst.

Thanks for your input.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Just popping in to say hi and that I'll check on this thread when I can. http://www.websitetoolbox.com/images/boards/smilies/wave.gif

There are plenty of capable options being mentioned here and on your list. How large is your room, where are the speakers located around the screen, and do you have more than one row of seating? Are there factors you've heard in other systems you are looking to achieve in your room? What sort of acoustic treatments are or are not in the room?

You are fortunate in that there are many options available for audition in your area. :)

Enjoy the hunt!

I actually auditioned the Synchrony's in my own home for a short while when first released to the market. I took them back as they didn't offer what I wanted. This isn't to take away from other happy users of these speakers, but I didn't find they offered the efficiency or dynamic range I was looking for.

The 6.5" driver can be the lowest distortion measured, but besides that being a useless metric (most of the true scientific research on driver distortion shows IMD and THD to be poorly correlated with perception of distortion), that is not a function of power compression. I own one of the lowest distortion 6.5" drivers ever manufactured, as shown by its extremely smooth bl curve, low distortion numbers, and smaller than normal change in parameters at higher power levels. It's the Mpyer Audio 6.5M, and to do this, they had to make a driver with extremely low efficiency, this driver requires a ton of power. On top of that, it's response require a lot of shaping to get smooth, and a much simpler approach would simply be to use a much larger driver. I just don't agree that the Synchrony can even be in the same league as designs like I'm talking about, and I base this on my own experiences and measurements, as well as that of scientists in the field.

I actually auditioned the Synchrony's in my own home for a short while when first released to the market. I took them back as they didn't offer what I wanted.

Of course, no speaker is for everyone. I wouldn't choose them for my taste in stereo music speakers, but I find them to be exceptional at multi-channel sound.

This isn't to take away from other happy users of these speakers, but I didn't find they offered the efficiency or dynamic range I was looking for.

Well, efficiency isn't a goal for everyone as power is cheap and plentiful. IME, efficient speakers simply reach their limits with less power. Do you mean actual dynamic range (Max SPL/min SPL) or do you mean the subjective 'sense' of dynamics?

The 6.5" driver can be the lowest distortion measured, but besides that being a useless metric (most of the true scientific research on driver distortion shows IMD and THD to be poorly correlated with perception of distortion), that is not a function of power compression.

Not a totally useless metric, especially since these handle a lot of power and play very loud without strain because there are 2-3 of these in each speaker.

I just don't agree that the Synchrony can even be in the same league as designs like I'm talking about, and I base this on my own experiences and measurements, as well as that of scientists in the field.

Maybe they are just different designs for different tastes. I have found that horn based speakers are far too colored and inaccurate for my tastes, even those that have been renamed as 'waveguides'. One of my customers was an engineer for a speaker company and we had an interesting conversation about the massive acoustic problems caused by horn designs. Others seem to love them. True horns typically, however, are hard to integrate into a home theater because of size and design.

Mark,

The room is 14.6wx18dx9h with one curved row of 4 Berkline 45015. No treatments yet, (planning on it with replacing speakers and room makeover). The screenwall is just that no false wall, so I cannot conceal anything s aesthetics do play a role. Any pics of the JTR's in lacquer black with grills floating around?

Any local place you know of to check out the JTR's, not ready for the 7-Catalyst.

Thanks for your input.

Mike

Hi Mike,

If you follow the links posted by fugueness, you will find current and past owners of Catalyst & T12LFs in driving distance from you. :)

It sounds like you have things heading in the right direction on speakers & treatments as the next step. I don't believe the T12LF's have yet been done in the optional finish which Jeff just added in the past month or two. While I wouldn't call them sexy, the Catalysts do have very clean lines and look to them, where they are fairly at home in a serious dedicated theater. Other than guys like fugueness, even I don't expect many to utilize full Catalysts all around. I have demonstrated prototypes a few times, and in late spring the much more compact (and about 1/2 the price), smaller sibling to the Catalyst, called the Spark, will be available. It utilizes the same family of ICEpower amplifiers and DSP with the 8" Coaxial mid/HF driver in a vented 2-way design. This allows the same crossover implementation and very similar directivity to enable both voice and image matching for better surround image location and smoother panning.

JTR also has the 2 way 8" coax or Triple 8 which can be options for surrounds that still match much better than most.

100% Movies, so also looking for matched surrounds as well (7.3 setup)

So far the recommendations are:
PSB Synchrony
Phase Technology
Paradigm S-series
Seaton and JTR
Salk

Now will there be any benefit between an active speaker or powered by the 5308ci? JL has a Primacy series that are active speakers, anyone have experience with them?

Thanks again for the input...

Hi Mike,

I just saw the above question about using active speakers with the 5808. In many systems the surround channels will still be passive speakers due to installation limitations, but going active with the main LCR can have multiple benefits. In the case of my Catalysts, there is more power on tap for each speaker than many have powering the front 3 or even all 7 channels. A highly capable speaker still needs enough power to enable effortless dynamic peaks, and almost any more capable speaker will be limited by amplifier headroom.

Let's look at Ultimate AV's tests of the 5308:
Denon AVR-5308CI Measurements (http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/708denon5308/index7.html)

It puts some serious power out when only one channel is driven, and the capabilities pull back as more channels are driven simultaneously. The front LCR are by far the most content heavy and highest duty of the 5-7 main speaker channels, so relieving the receiver of those channels leaves a lot more headroom to adequately power the remaining 4 surround channels.

Obviously if you were to assemble a fully active system over time, it would probably be worth it to find a home for the 5308 and get a dedicated pre-amp, but the 5308 will do a wonderful job serving as a pre-processor as well.

You may want to listen to the Dynaudio Contour series of speakers. Very neutral, excellent bass even without the sub, and smooth. Along with a Dynaudio sub, this system is well-balanced.

I'm considering changing my B&W 804 setup for behind the screen speakers. The Klipsch THX ultra-2 home theater set looks interesting...


this system is incredible!! it was the head-liner in our store until we put in a b&W 802 system